The Mismatch - Celtics-Warriors Takeaways, Plus Cavs Love, Luka’s Demands, and the Hot Heat

Episode Date: January 20, 2023

Verno and KOC open the show by discussing Thursday's NBA Finals rematch between the Warriors and Celtics (01:16), which they agree had a playoff-like atmosphere. While discussing the game in Paris between the Bulls and Pistons, the guys talk about how the NBA has been promoting top prospect Victor Wembanyama, and how the league can attract a younger audience (12:28). After seeing the Cavs in person, Verno shares why he is a believer (25:35). Also, the guys discuss the latest round of injuries with Mitchell Robinson and Christian Wood (44:12). They end the show by discussing the debut of KOC’s NBA Draft Guide (59:41). Check out KOC’s NBA Draft Guide for all the latest prospect rankings! Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping everybody? This is Logan Murdoch from Real On I have some big news to share. On Saturday, February 18th, the Ringer NBA show will be hitting the road for All-Star weekend for a live show in Salt Lake City. You heard that right. We are taping the pod in front of a live audience in Salt Lake next month and we want you to join us. Pull up on us at the Stateroom in the heart of downtown Salt Lake. You can grab your tickets now at thestateroom.com. That's thestateroom. Doors open at 9 o'clock. Show is at 10. It's going to be a 21 and up event. Come hang with the gang and chat, midseason updates, draft preview, and even have a Q&A with us. Space is limited, so grab your tickets while they last at theStatroom.com. Hope to see y'all in there.

Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon, and joining me see does every Friday from the ringer.com as Kevin O'Connor, a.k. Kevin O'Bomberma, A.K.K.E.O.K.K.O.K.K.O.K.K.K. Kevin O'Call camera. Kevin O'Cannibus. Kevin Burtow! How are you doing tonight, man? I'm great. We are recording this on Thursday night at the conclusion of the Boston Celtics, Golden State Warriors, epic overtime game. Great regular season basketball game. And we had to fire up this podcast equipment because if I had to listen for five more minutes to Stan Van Gundy praising Al Orford for getting a ball on the rim, I was going to die. I'm like,

I swear to God they just talked about that. And then they went to this post-game interview with Jason Tatea, and then they came back after that. And Steve Igoody would not stop talking about the fact that Al Orver got the ball on the rim. Never mind, possibly the worst possession that you could feasibly have when you're trying to hold on to a lead at the end of the game. Boston with their eight point league. Did you see the Van Gundy?

Van Gendee Durant thing on Twitter this week? Oh, did I ever? That was hilarious. Stan's spitting. No, I'm not criticizing players. Look, man. I get it. I get that it took some time off the clock.

But Boston had an eight-point lead and did virtually everything wrong that you could possibly do wrong, fouling a three-point shooter, even though it didn't really look like a foul on Wiggins. It was a weird finish. turning over, you know, an inbound and giving DeVincenzo a corner three,

then trying to throw the ball away again. Jalen Brown has to like jump on the scorers table to save it. I mean, it was all just this colossal mess. But in the end, man, they really looked like this is a team that, you know, and I thought it was interesting after the game, Tatum saying, the last time that they played each other, it was almost like they were trying to avenge last year's championship. And we've got to understand that that's over.

We lost. And so that this time around, obviously they wanted to look at it differently, but it did kind of look like, oh, no, same old, same old. Tatum's kind of struggling from the field. Warriors are in control of this. Seven, eight point lead, basically the entire game last three quarters. Yeah, and then that fourth quarter, Boston's defense ramps it up.

You know, giving up 17 to that team is just an enormous effort, holding them to 17 points, which they did, and they were able to get it to overtime. And my God, the last few minutes of that fourth quarter, Al Horford made like five critical plays. Oh, unbelievable. The switches on Steph, the pressure outside, the awareness on defense and obviously the three-point shots as well.

Outstanding performance by him. Like, Stan Van Gettie was raving all about the wrong thing with Horford. I know. Like, he's a reason that they were in overtime in the first place. Forget the fact that he took an extra couple seconds because unbelievable. It's not going to show up in the box score, but he hit the rim. I'm like, holy mac, you have got to be kidding me. Of all the things.

I'm so glad you brought that up because I thought I was the only one. Like, what? Of all the things this guy just did. He had the block shot and the three-pointer on back-to-back plays in the final 90 seconds, whatever it was. Well, and never mind that you're holding onto a lead, you can virtually end the game. And this is one of the worst possessions in the history of basketball that ends with some Al Horford crazy step. back against the clock. And it's like, okay, bro.

All right. Well, put it this way, though. Horford does deserve praise. He does. For that player in particular, maybe not. That worked out well. At 36 years old, him playing at the level that he is defensively, hitting shots at really a career best rate this year for the Celtics.

He's shooting 44% from three on nearly five attempts per game. This is a guy who just a couple years ago when he left Boston for Philly for the first time, the idea was, hey, you know what, Horford's near the end. He goes to Philly, it stinks there. He goes to O'KC, looks better, comes back to Boston, goes to a finals,

and now is even better than he was last year. It's pretty cool. And such an amazing matchup between these two teams. Boston's been the one that's been taking this crazy amount of threes this year and hitting a crazy amount of threes this year, And that just wasn't the case tonight. They're 13 to 41, 32%, which is not commonplace for them.

18 offensive boys, though. Yeah, right. They made up for it there. Yeah. Oh, punished. Punished the Warriors out rebound them, 63 to 47. Meanwhile, the Warriors shoot 52 threes in the game. And, I mean, their percentage wasn't that great.

It's 35% tonight. Went to the free throw line about. the same amount of times. But that was just a really, really high-level game with some crazy energy in that arena that you could feel, which is not, it did have a playoff feel. For anybody that was watching that game, it felt different than most of the games you're tuning in

on an average Thursday night. And even look at the way the coaches played their guys. You know, Boston played nine guys. but, you know, Brogden played 36 minutes off the bench, then White played only 17, Grant Williams played only 13, Luke Cornett played only eight, and Steve Kerr played only eight guys.

Like, they played really tight rotations, heavy minutes for a lot of guys out there. It did feel like more of a playoff game. And like you said, with the crowd, Chris, those Boston crowds can get louder than any arena that I've ever been in. It was a tense crowd tonight. It felt like watching from home.

Tense, and it got loud in the good moments for the Celtics, but I think everybody in that crowd, crowd had a playoff type of energy where it felt like, oh, could this be a rematch preview potentially? You ever know? Sometime down the line in June. I mean, you see these teams and the way they play and the intensity of that thing when they treat it like this is not an average regular season game.

You saw playoff intensity from both of those teams. The defense with Horford, you know, pressure outside. relocation threes by Steph under duress. Yes. And transition defense, too. It was weird. Wasn't there like a lot of deflections and transition balls being poked away? End of the first half, Steph deflecting the ball, hitting the three.

You know, Wiggins had one as well. Boston had some stops and transition. A lot of high effort, intense moments. Yeah. It speaks to the effort that everyone was giving in this game. And I will say, look, we are, we've been a fusive in our praise, Boston. and they are the leader in the Eastern Conference and they've got a cushion.

One of the things that we thought about a lot and people have talked about is kind of where the warriors stand because their road record is abysmal, and their overall record is decidedly mediocre. But I watch games like that and I go, bro, they still can turn it on. When they've got to play at their best, they can play it their best.

And I thought it was interesting today. I happen to be walking through my living, room and ESPN was on. And they had, I saw up on the screen, they were going to have this discussion about this game coming up tonight. And they said,

interestingly enough, the Warriors think that they could still be much better than they've been this season, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they posted that their record, which is like 22 and 22, it's like right around 500, is virtually the exact same record

that Boston had at this time last year. And I was like, wow. Yeah. You know, we don't even think about that anymore. How just mediocre Boston was, even this late in the season. Like, we feel like we've got a really good feel on these teams in large part right now. But the truth is we didn't then, and we might not now. For what is for us, just pulling it open.

Boston on January 20th last year was 23 and 23. The ninth seed in the Eastern Conference. I mean, it's unbelievable to think about. Yep, and Golden State is 22 and 23, then nine seed in the West. Right. It shows how much the first half really matters, right? Yeah, right. Not a whole lot.

And I'll say this in praise of the Warriors. You saw when that was, that was best effort. Totally. And their best effort is still right there with every other team. No doubt about it.

You still don't want to see them and have to beat them four out of seven. No, this is why Draymond said a couple weeks back. It doesn't matter what seed we are. We can still win. We can still make the finals, still win the finals,

and it's true. And by the way, not to spin this into, you know, in-season tournament talk, but everything we just said about the first half of the season, not really being indicative of which team is going to make the finals.

That's why Adam Silver and the NBA kind of want to split the season into halves. To have a mid-season champion where they went the single elimination tournament, split the season into halves, and then that team has something to hang their hat on, or maybe they can go for the best regular season record in-season title and NBA finals champ, the NBA Triple Crown. Like that could be, that's why I'm in favor of it. I think it would be cool to kind of make the first half its own thing.

You know, don't you think that could be kind of nice if last month, you know, or earlier this month, a mid-season champion was crowned? I have never had any problem with doing things that would garner more interest than what we've got going. And who, by the way, who doesn't like single elimination? Single elimination is awesome. Yeah. I would certainly, I mean, I have absolutely no. problem with innovation or changing things up or trying new things is of no

over the 82 game season you want to try something new and fun I'm I'm with it why they're having their rivalry week and all that yeah speaking of new and fun the other thing that happened today in the NBA that was big news was this game that took place in Paris now it wasn't exactly some premier match up because it was the Bulls and the Pistons that were playing in the game but I just found it very interesting that we know that the NBA has made this a global game and that continues to. I think it was maybe the seventh or something like that game that's been played overseas, like over the course of like the last year.

So, I mean, there's constantly staging games in different places and trying to garner more interest from other places around the world. but the France one and Paris was fascinating to me. So one of my co-workers, Kelsey Wright Johnson, happened to have, she was in Paris over the weekend. And she said, I said, would you know that Victor Wimbayama played there if you didn't know that Victor Wemba Jolla? Like, is there like billboards around? Like, is there an awareness?

That's a great question. Really good question. And she said, you would not. She said, but you couldn't go anywhere without knowing the NBA was coming there. It was plastered all over the place. NBA Paris, NBA Paris, NBA Paris, and that they were going to be staging this game. She said, it was a monstrous deal that that game was going to be going on. And the reason I find it fascinating is not just the promotion of the NBA as a global.

game, just this full force behind Wembeiyama, though he is not a player in the NBA, right? Like, we just have never experienced anything like this. You called games on the NBA app, his games. I know my buddy John Hollinger has called games that Wembeiyama's played in. Like they are showing the games on the NBA app of a league of which they are getting more affiliation with in the future. But they haven't been like, you know, in bed with, you know, up until now, certainly not anybody that they would ever show their games. But it's like this, you know, we have always said that these American college kids have this opportunity to really build a brand and everybody has awareness of them. You feel like you got some stock in them before they ever go into the NBA. So on draft night, you remember the Jalen Sugg shot for Gonzaga when he gets drafted or whatever the case may be.

But with an international player, it's like find Luca Donchages's games on the internet or like, oh, they're talking about, you know, this Josh Giddy. Let me go try to look up his highlights on YouTube from the Australian League. But not only are they broadcasting this kid's games, he walks into the arena sitting in the front row with his parents. Like he's frigging Jordan. Yeah, they have a photo with Adam Silver and Magic Johnson. Unbelievable. Before the game.

Yeah. It's unbelievable, man. I think it's a smart move for the NBA to be investing so much in the guys who are next up, whether it's screwed Henderson, the G-League games airing on the NBA app or NBA. com or Victor Wemagname and Mets 92 airing on the NBA app. I think that's smart for the NBA because these guys

Victor and Scoot specifically, they are such likable players. So why not educate fans on them earlier sooner than later regardless of what team they end up getting drafted to? If you can create more fans prior to the

draft, I don't know. I think that drives interest and also Victor Wermainiama very well could become an MVP candidate someday in the future, they should be throwing a lot of love behind him right now. I just think it's so interesting. It is. For a player that is not in the league. I know.

It is so. It is. To get this kind of promotion. And I know there's going to be the Paris Olympics and they've got stuff coming up. So Paris is a little bit, a bit of an extenuating circumstance. They'll be hot. They'll be a hot basketball team. Correct.

Like a lot of good players on that team. I think that's probably part of it. for the NBA, I wonder how much the NBA realizes they're the content business. And Victor Wenband Yama is just straight good content. People like watching Webbenyama

and people like watching him shoot threes and floater threes and block shots and all that. The NBA needs to compete against kids scrolling on TikTok and watching shows on Hulu and watching the menu and going to the movies. It's not just the NFL they compete against

on Sundays and Thursdays and now Saturdays in the playoffs. It's everything that's available. Do you think there's going to be a day where the NBA is promoting, like maybe even preps players? I don't know. I do wonder.

I don't know. I mean, I think with the NBA... I wonder if this is just a special circumstance or the next guy that is supposed to, you know, be a high lottery pick. The challenge for the NBA is the fact that TV ratings have plumbed. over the last half decade or so, but social media has skyrocketed.

Yeah. Like the NBA is so popular on social media, on YouTube, on Instagram, on TikTok, it is insane. But on TV, it's just not. So how do you translate those viewers? How do you get the younger audience to tune in and watch full games? How important is that?

Probably pretty important, but it doesn't seem to be affecting TV contracts or anything like that. It's an interesting place for the NBA to be right. NBA to be right now. Yeah. And speaking of that, I just had this massive awareness of that, the other side of the basketball business of which I had an awareness, but not to this level. So two days ago, Tuesday, Nike held a thing in Memphis for the job once. And they were going to unveil like some colorways and whatever.

Kevin, they flew in like 25 media members. Like VR kicks, Nick DePaul, like anybody in that sneaker realm, anybody that's like in that space, like online, they were there. And they didn't come on their own dime. Like they were flown in. Is that a good thing? For this thing. I don't know.

I mean, in terms of promotion, in terms of. in terms of promotion for, you know, if you want the maximum amount of coverage for a product that is going to be coming out. Sure. Indeed. Right? But I mean, I just, because that's where kids are. Right? They're online. They're there. They're going to see that.

They're not watching live TV. So what do you do about that if you're at the NBA? I mean, I think part of the live TV thing is, honestly, it's amount of games. and the fact that it's 82 games and the fact that what we have learned over time, what has shrunk the most is attention span. Oh, yeah.

Okay? So now you're expecting people to be invested in something as someone who pays attention to 82 games a year for a team. It is a chore. It's a chore. So the expectation that you are going to have that. But I mean, when you were talking about like, you know, a tournament or whatever else, like we had this finals match up tonight, you know, there are certain things that people are going to tune in for.

But I don't think to me, that's not a massive problem, right? I don't think it's a massive problem. I would only be scared if it was impacting the popularity of my players, the awareness of my players, the ability for these guys to sell, all of that type of stuff. Because I do think that you've got the young crowd. I think you will as time goes on. And I think it's not necessarily an indictment of sports in many cases as much as it is. That's the way the world is now, you know, that everything is on demand, Kevin.

Everything. Everything, yep. Everything is on demand. That's why I say NBA is really in the content business. Yeah. So I mean, I know people always say, well, what about the NFL? Well, bro, all right, fine. Have 16 frigging games then.

Yeah. See you think that's what I love. I wish, you know, we could like simulate what a year would look like for the NBA if they had days. Like if the NBA aired every Tuesday and Wednesday with every team playing or something like that, and Thursday, Saturday, Premier Games, like they had their days and their premier nights. Right. You had your Saturday afternoon matinee, East Coast start time, 9 a.m. West Coast, 8 p.m. prime time overseas.

I'd love for the NBA to have that type of schedule for a year just to see what it's like. Where they, like, everybody plays on a day. Because that was cool. Remember a couple months ago earlier in the season when they staggered the start time? Yeah, 15 minutes between each game. That was a really cool day for basketball. Yes.

So making more things special. Yeah, I don't know. Like, I think rivalry week, I think there should be way more weeks like rivalry week. I think there should be a week where it's like 70s week or 90s week where you have everything in the arena and all the music they play, everything on the Jumbotron. Like all that is like that decade.

like a particular year. And we're the jerseys for that. I don't know. I think there's a lot of things that the NBA should do. And I also think that they should have less jerseys except for those particular weeks

in events. Oh, you're against the amount of jerseys. We talked about that the opening week. I still think if you associate a team with their home and away jerseys, I mean, look at least do the, can we at least do the colors? You know what I mean?

I'm saying that the team typically, can you not have, have a team that's never worn baby blue in their life wearing baby blue. Like I mean, that's what I mean. It's like the bucks wearing blue. It's a little strange to me. They, the bucks should always be green.

Yeah. Or why? And that's just the way I feel about it. I'm sure plenty of people feel differently, although they're the Great Lakes. I love watching you get old before my eyes. It makes you feel not alone. It's because I care, Chris,

about the game and TV rings. I think the game is great right now. now. There's so many amazing players. You're old, bro. Whatever happened to Barry Sanders hand in the ball to the referee? No, I'm the one who was mad at Jose Alvarado getting a technical

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In Wyoming, call 1,800-2-4-70. And West Virginia, visit 1800gambor. com. All right, so, look, when the NBA is at its best, it is an unbelievable product. that tonight. I got to see it last night in person when I went to the Grizzlies and the Cavs. That game was a great basketball game. And I'm going to tell you something, Kevin. I know that typically when we or anybody else for that matter talks about finals contenders, we talk about Milwaukee,

Boston, Philly, and then you got to give Miami just some legacy love on their ability to be a hardened playoff team

field of veterans and, you know, we'll go through the different teams, Brooklyn, when they were on their run. Oh, we got to look at them now. And after seeing

them last night, it is not going to surprise me at all. if the Cavaliers are in the Easter Conference finals. How about the NBA finals? I think it's a possibility, but again, you've probably taken your lumps before, but I do think that this team,

and they took some scars last year, but, you know, they were without Mitchell last night. So one of the things that you and I have talked about is, what do these teams look like when they're losing main pieces? and we've seen Indiana without Halliburton and it stinks. And we've seen Brooklyn trying to do it without Durant and it's a struggle. And we're seeing Phoenix, just their record just submarining without Booker. And watching Cleveland last night and thinking, man,

and they can plug Donovan Mitchell into this, I don't think people understand how awesome Garland is. Yeah, I know we got blocked twice at the end of the game. But that guy, getting to see him in person last night, there are very, very, very few guards I would take in the NBA for the next five to ten years than that kid. That is a special talent who gets overshadowed now by the Mitchell stuff. Mitchell's average a 30 a game. Mitchell's gotten his just desserts for good reason. Add the 71, all that stuff.

but this guy's handles his ability to see the court and now just get to see it in person and watch how he maneuvers that offense and the fact that he's a dead-eye shooter half the time he is just unbelievable and those two bigs they're going to figure out garland also doesn't turn the ball over no and they're going to figure it out where you're going to get to these playoffs and he's going to he's going to he's going to have his night where he's the one on center stage because that guy is, I mean, just watching him, I think he had 14 assists last night. And you got both those bigs.

You got Alan, who is just a elite level, you know, roller to the basket and a guy that's just so long and athletic. But Mowbly, holy mother, when he throws some weight on him, there's two things he's got to do. get a little he's going to fill out and then once he fills out he's got to get a little of the SOB in him so i had uh i covered j bickerstap who's now their coach and i love j bbb's been on the mismatch before he's been on here yeah i love j b and j b even told one of my guys last night how freaky it is how much mowb is like jackson because he had Jared Jackson, his rookie year.

The defensive versatility and all that. In the sense of the guy is just, and the other thing is there's even more offensively that he is able to do, but he's not that, for lack of a better term, that MF, right? He's not the guy that's going to say, throw me the ball, give me the ball, right?

And he's not a position for that either because he has Mitchell and Garland on his team right now. But there is nothing you can do. do when he gets to that left hook. I mean, that is a devastating. He could put his body into you and he can finish with that left. And that is, I mean, he is such a special talent. Mowgli is just going to extend his range, shooting the ball.

And that's going to open up everything off the dribble for him if that happens at some point in his career. And just dealing with, you know, Kim as your, that's the third guy. Yeah. Just the talent level and the fact that they play so well together, they get all. all those guys healthy for the playoffs, I would not want to see them. No doubt about it.

And like they have so many different lineup configurations that they can use. Like Kevin Love, you plug him in with Mobley, it works. Plug him in with Allen. It works. Just keep Mobley out there with Jenny Osmond or Isaac O'Coro, who by the way, you saw him hit four out of four three-pointers. He's hitting 39% of his threes over the last two months. He's on the best stretch of his career shooting the ball.

We talked about it earlier in the year. Well, if they could only upgrade that position with a more reliable shooter who can also play defense. Well, O'Coro still plays great defense. He's still a heads you play. A good cutter, good mover of the ball. And now he's hit in threes. They don't trust him. If you even watch the last play where the one I goofed with you about Jaron blocking Garland,

O'Coro is standing in the corner with no one within 50 yards of him, like basically with his hands. He doesn't garner the respect to the defense yet. No. He's still a low volume guy. Like that 39% is on two and a half a test for a game. He just needs one reliable. Yeah, but you got to give Okora love for the stretch though. Yeah.

That if this actually sustains, then at some point, teams are going to say, oh, actually we do have to defend Isaac Okoro. The volume has to go so high for that to matter. Oh, for sure. He's still a low volume guy. But if he's hitting threes at, you know, high 30s, 37, 38, 39 percent, that's

like, that's all you need. There's somebody you could attain, though, that could shoot a ton of corner threes for that team because my God, are they open? Because you can't, I mean, staying in front of those guys is a chore. I just, I was super impressed. They play hard.

They're very difficult to score against. They've got size, so it's not easy to score at the rim. and they've got, I mean, they got guys that come off their bench too, and it was not a good bench night for them. But, I mean, you got some reliability there. I mean, Rubio's just getting back in the flow. Kevin Love can come and knock down some shots

and be a matchup problem some nights. I just think Cleveland needs to be in that mix, in that mix, because I love that team. I do. I love that team. And they tell me when I was talking to the Cavs, guys, they tell me that like Mitchell has been

however good we think he's been he's been 50 times better than that. He is the most am the easiest star to get along with. He does not carry himself like that. He has been this amazing teammate

to all of these guys like they swear by him. Yeah, they swear by him. It's just good vibes. Good vibes with that team. You look at the way he performs on defense. That was the question at the time of the trade. Well, Mitchell, you know, I remember saying on the pod with you, is Mitchell going to be like the guy he was early in his career, like he was in college when he would fly around on defense with those Louisville teams.

Like, he was so fun to watch on defense. I said, oh, you know Mitchell's going to be a good defender in the NBA. It's a matter of how good he becomes on offense. Well, he becomes this megastar on offense, and he became kind of a liability towards the end with the jazz. But now he's right back to all those positive habits. playing with this defensive culture on Cleveland. It's like we've talked about,

it's kind of been a theme of our pods throughout the year with some of the teams we've talked about, when your best players are putting out that kind of effort, whether it's Kevin Durant on Brooklyn or Mitchell on Cleveland, it just trickles down to the entire rest of the roster, unlike a Trey Young type for Atlanta, where it's the total opposite. Well, I mean, just being around them,

seeing those guys talking to them, it's just, because Garland's a great guy too, and everybody loves him. They just got good vibes. They got good chemistry. Nobody's, like, resentful there. I just, I liked what I saw, man. I really did.

And I would not want to see them come playoff time because they just bring some stuff to the table that other teams just don't have. It's a weird mix, having the two bigs and the two smalls, but they are all so damn good at what they do. You know? I was impressed.

for sure. All-Star Returns came out today. And most everything was the same. Janus overtook Durant. So we're looking at team captains. It'll probably be LeBron and Janus. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right.

He's like about $100,000 now or something like that. So I guess that matters. Just in terms of who we're seeing pick the teams. Yonis would be good comedy if he's picking the scene. That'd be cool. Well, in the West, the thing that stood out to me, and I want to ask you about this. LeBron's number one by a margin.

Yokic is right there. And AD is right there. Now, they're hoping to be able to have Anthony Davis back by the All-Star break. You know, they say he's going to be ramping up and whatever. It's hard to imagine that he or Zion, who are three and four on that list, would go participate in All-Star weekend when they'd just be coming, back or in Zion's case, probably not back by then. But I can't imagine that AD would come back and then be like, oh, yeah, now I'm going

to go do All-Star Weekend. There was a report. Wasn't there earlier this week that he might return first week of February? Wasn't that something? Which would be like not that far before the All-Star weekend. But let's just say. Aiming for early February return. That was Sham Sharania earlier this week.

Okay. So that's a couple weeks from now. Regardless of whether he returns or not, no guarantee he'd actually play in all. Star Weekends. Yeah, you might want to take that off. Oh, yeah, for sure. Especially when you're that essential to, and they're going to have to pile up to wins. What I found fascinating was if you said AD wasn't going to participate, you said Zion wasn't going to participate, they're three and four, who would you give that other front court spot too? Because Wiggins is the next in the voting, and that's not an option. No. It's not going to be Andrew Wiggins. So,

we're not going by the fan vote on that. But if it was just you, and you at the name. I get to name the starter. Yeah, you get to name the third front court starter. Well, just to throw out the fan vote, after Zion who's fourth, Wiggins fifth, George sixth, Marketing seventh,

Draymond, 8th, Looney 9th, Subonis, 10th. I'd take Sabonis. They're third right now. Mm-hmm. What a story. And they just won the other night without them against the Lakers in L.A.

I mean, it says something about the Kings. That also says something about their opponent. It's neither here nor there. I like it. Sabonis is amazing, though. Sabonis has been amazing this year for them. And I like it. I actually, I can get down with it.

Yeah. If we're talking, because at that point, you're going deserving. Who is the most deserving forward? Truthfully, it should be a guy. Chris, but being honest, should be one of the guards who start, not a forward.

Silly rules. The Kings might really get both. Fox and it's a bonus. Imagine that. I mean, Fox is in the top 10 now. And, you know,

one of by semi-bowl predictions at the beginning was that they were going to break the playoff streak right after the Mariners just broke theirs. Oh, yeah. This is going to happen. This is going to be the year.

And Fox is going to be an all-star. They're the three. All right. Look, I loved my prediction. Never in a billion years did I expect that we'd be talking on January 19th about them being third in the Western Conference. That is just, it's an incredible story, truth. And how cool was it in that game against the Lakers to see where Sean Holmes get the start? You know, he hasn't played a whole lot of consistent minutes. He hasn't played 20 plus minutes in weeks, and he goes out there and has an awesome game for the Kings.

A plus 23 in the game, a perfect 7 for 7 from the field, busting his butt on defense, ripping down boards, playing with the same type of effort he has since our first year doing this show together, Chris. Who is Rashon Ombts? So cool seeing him do that. I was just happy for Rashon Holmes. It's always cool to see guys get those opportunities and flourish. Well, and I will say this for him. And you know what?

It's kind of crazy that you would bring that up. I totally, I didn't even mention Killian Hayes in the France game. I didn't even mention it. Well, I was going to mention the people. We kind of moved on. I had people tweeting me saying leave him there. I saw that too. I saw that.

And you're going to bring up Rashon Holmes from seven years ago. having a good game. Killian is just one bad night. He, in the motherland? In the motherland, yeah. A lot of pressure there. He was fatigued after the long flight.

Hey, he's got too much on his plate. Yeah, I know. Everybody's asking it for tickets and everything. Big homecoming. By the way, I'll just mention this so people can prove that, We can prove to people that we are recording this live. Nice little and one from Cam Johnson on my screen. Welcome back Cam Johnson.

I've seen him play basketball and forever. Oh, yeah. Sons up big nearing halftime right now. So he's back. And we also didn't watch the Raptors. I didn't see a second of Raptors. No, I didn't either. But I do see, you know, Minnesota won that 128, 128, 126,

and another good game for Scardie Barnes. He's been much, much better in recent weeks for Toronto after a terrible start. Yeah. You know, and I'll say this about Barnes and Mowgli, for that matter. It's a common refrain that we've talked about many times that I, and I've been big on this. It's different now.

When everybody freaks out about these sophomores, I'm saying this is someone who has watched these sophomores struggle in many cases. That narrative has to change where we're expecting that, second year leap. It is now a third year leap in most cases if it's taken. And the reason is they are playing as rookies now. And so that's that many in years past, you barely played as a rookie. And then you got to play in that second year. But that's really the first time the league gets to see you in full form where you're like play minutes. And now they don't.

They don't know much about you yet. Whereas now you're rookie season. I was talking about on the whiteboard. You're on the whiteboard now. They've got you scouted. They know your tendencies. They know what you want to do. So once you have the big success,

and in many cases, you get to do it immediately. Nobody knows you. Nobody really knows how to guard you or what to guard you with. And then you come back your next year, and it's a different world for you because now there's a scout on you. And so the second year in many of these cases can be a struggle because the opponent now has a game plan against you. And then that third year, because then they all, if they're worth their salt, they go back to the lab.

And then the third year they take off. I'll give an example because I saw this happen with Moran. The first year you play the hawks, you get guarded by. Trey Young. The second year, you play the Hawks, you get guarded by DeAndre Hunter, right? That's the way it works. Trey just catches strays. And that's just a, well, I mean, I didn't want to, you get the point. I know, I know. It's just an example. Or fine, Mike Conley and Royce O'Neill. Right? But the second year, they say, all right, we ain't guarding him with a guard. We're going to use one of these big wings on this guy. And they now have a plan of attack against you.

And so I do think that that applies to so many of these players where we sit there and go, what's wrong with him? His second year, there ain't nothing wrong with him. He's got to figure it out now. He got used to the kind of the speed of the game and got to sneak up on everyone because they didn't really know anything about him when you're going through that rookie year, where they all play. A lot of minute.

Now, the good one. And I think that if you're looking, be working. worried if your guy has a crap third year or down third year, especially if it's somebody that played a lot in his first year. Because the second year can be a lot about just figuring it out. All right, I'm with you on Subonis on the All-Star thing. I can't believe we agree. There are a couple big injuries that we've got to talk about.

Feel terrible for the Knicks. Mitchell Robinson is getting surgery on the thumb. he's going to be out for, I mean, three weeks, maybe. Who knows? Who knows how long? But man, did you see the numbers, the on-off with him? It's like, they're like plus eight or nine with him on, and they're like minus one with him off?

I mean, he has had a profound impact on that team and just his ability to play and be out on the. the court. And so this is really one to monitor because that's a much bigger injury than I think his name would lead people to believe. It's not a high profile guy, but he's a high impact guy. Yeah, he's a sensational shop locker. He's, you know, you mentioned it earlier in regards to Jared Allen, the rolling ability. Mitchell Robinson's a great lob threat as well. I mean, like the The combination with him and Jalen Brunson has been so potent this year for the Knicks. And even if Robinson's not receiving the ball, he's forcing the defense to collapse in.

And that's creating driving opportunities for Brunson, kickout opportunities. And you mentioned those numbers, Chris, you know, plus eight with him, minus one without him. You know, the mixed lineups with Robinson and Brunson this year are a plus five with those two. They drop down to minus three with Brunson on the floor without Mitchell Robinson. Wow. So, I mean, like, it's just, you know, it's not a dramatic difference. It's not like you were talking Yokech here. But, you know, Mitchell Robinson has been such an important player to them on both ends.

Yeah. And so now they've got to try to figure it out over the course of the next couple of weeks with him out of the mix. And another team that's got to try to figure it out is Dallas. Jason kid is on their ass talking about how it looked like a shot. shoot around defensively. They've hit a little skid here. So it's a bad skid right now, Chris. It's a bad skid and they lost really bad.

Which is very problematic. Their second best player. Yeah, very problematic. And I thought it was fascinating. My buddy Tim McMahon from ESPN put out this thing about Luca. We don't really hear much about Luca and his thoughts on things. He's never been particularly vocal, but Tim always knows, and he wrote this. Donchich has been more spectacular than ever this season, efficiently leading the league in

scoring, despite frequent double teams and dragging Dallas to a 24-21 record. Good enough for the fifth place in the West. He's certainly not satisfied to be in the middle of the playoff pack. He's a fiery competitor with a championship pedigree, having won titles with the Slovenian national team in Real Madrid, and patience isn't high on his list of virtues. Sources said Donchage, who hasn't shown a desire to be involved in personnel matters in the past, has strongly indicated he wants the Mavs to upgrade before the February 9th trade deadline. So first we've heard of that, right? Lucas swinging his weight a little bit.

Isn't it interesting Mark Cuban came out? Tim McMahon, you put out the statement himself and Cuban said, Tim McMahon got it dead wrong. Luca has never suggested, ask, demanded, or discussed changes to the roster. Tim McMahon himself tweeted out that statement from Mark Cuban. It's just kind of funny how Cuban, you know, such an outspoken owner comes out of nowhere, denying just the, like that was not, it's not like he said, Luke is angry and may demand a trade.

It was Luca thinks there should be moves. That's all it was. It has strongly indicated he wants the maps to upgrade. Yeah, it felt like an innocent report to me. I was very surprised Cuban came out the way he did. Well, it's sensitive. I don't know. Did you see this past week?

Didn't get a ton of national attention. But did you see the mural that the guy painted on the side of the wall? No, of Luca. There was a mural of a guy painted a thing of Luca, and he's holding up a sign that says, Oh, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. Get me help. Oh, I didn't know that was a mural.

I thought it was just like, like, art. I didn't see the mural on a wall. It was art. I mean, it was a side of a building. Oh, I mean, like, I thought it was like a social post. No, no, no. And it said, get me help. And they said, Cuban called the artist.

He said it was disrespectful. Okay, I just pulled it open. Yeah, I see it was like physically on a wall. Yeah, yeah. Please send help. And they said Cuban. reached out to the artist that called it disrespectful.

So this is a sore spot, is what I'd say. It's a sore spot. I mean, the artists are right. The report is right. Look at the roster. Look at the roster. You mentioned it before opening night.

You're like, you should look down this Dallas roster. You're like, eh, I don't know how many guys there really are that I'm fearing. Yeah. I mean, it's him. That's who you fear.

Yeah. That's it. many, you know, how many of those guys are you counting on? And, well, the big thing is, yo, think about what a different world this would be. I hate to bring this up. You want to know how it's got to be a super sore spot too. You see Jay LaBronsohn get this all-star love. And people are like, Jay LaBrunsen doing so great New York. And it's like, holy mother, you had a guy. Like you had him. All you had to do was do right by him.

Make him whole. You could add him for $60 million according to that. So that has just got to be something that just keeps you up at night. Honestly, when you're sitting there going, we could have had the guy for $60-something million. But that's by all reports. And we didn't do it. And so then he ended up walking and getting $100 something.

And then we cried about tampering or whatever. Like, bro, you should have just taken care of the guy. guy. And so that was a bad precedent to send. And then he blows up in the playoffs. He's better than your coach first expected him to be. And frankly, your organization knew he thought he was, or else he would have committed to him. And now you look up and it's like, we don't even have Jay LaBronson right now. You just said, Christian Wood is the second best player on the team. Who's the third? Hardaway Jr.? Didn't witty.

Dinwiddie, okay? I saw this stat tweeted out yesterday by J.A. Dubin on Twitter. He put the Bucks defense, the year before they hired Jason Kidd was 30th. The first year with Kidd was fourth. The second year with Kidd was 23rd. The Mavs defense, the year before Jason Kidd, it was 20th, their defensive rating. Year one, moved up to sixth. year down to 24th.

The Jason Kidd effect seems to last one year, and then it all goes away. You can partially blame personnel, but the Jason Kidd decisions throughout this entire year, the weird Christian Wood decisions, continuing to feed Javelle McGee minutes early on. Like, it's, kid deserves some blame here as well. Cuban in the front office due to, like, it's not just one person in particular here. It's not just the Brunson decision. it's a whole lot of issues happening around Luca right now. So if Cuban is being honest here,

and he actually hasn't received any indication from Luca that, you know, hey, there needs to be improvements here around me, they should be feeling pressure themselves. You don't need Luca to tell you that to think, okay, we're going to be, we're going to be better here, or this is going to be LeBron leaving Cleveland, going to Miami repeating history. Let me just say, 100 million percent,

believe Tim McMahon and his sources. A hundred million. But regardless of what it is. You shouldn't even need that. I get it. You don't either. Yes. Well, I mean, you might have, look,

you pair it up with the soreness that's probably going on. You have that mural thing that I told you about. Do you see the other quote that was out there this week? If I had to, I would do anything to keep Luca, you know, basically like a long-term or lifetime Mav. if my wife said me or him long term on the Mavs, then I'd meet her at the courthouse.

And like, come on, probably. That was a lot of, Cuban said that sometime, what, last year or something like that? That was funny. Yeah. So I think anything is a little bit sensitive with that topic, probably. I'm sure. But yeah, look, they got to figure it out now without Christian would. So that was the original point of this.

And it's going to be tough. Yeah. Because Christian Wood has had a very good year for that. Well, they're currently the five seed in the West. You know, as we talk here, they're two and a half back from the three seed, but only two and a half up on the 12th. Well, and they've lost what, four out of five, I believe? I think it's four out of five after, I mean, they gave up 130 to the Hawks last night in that game.

That was the game that he said was like, actually, it's more than that. It's five out of six. Yeah, and they have so few assets as well. That's the tough part. And that only win is against the Lakers. Come on. Oh, that was the Lucal LeBron game.

Yeah, that was a good one. Last weekend. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, they've lost Oklahoma City, the Clippers, two at Portland and then Atlanta. And this would be the most troubling. These last three, that two at Portland's and the Atlanta, they've given up

136 140 and 130 horrible yo 136 140 and 130 30 wow yeah pretty bad

those are just enormous numbers and their savior is coming back soon Maxie Cleva oh now it all change It all changes now, yeah. Yeah.

Maybe they just have to dust off Javow, throwing back out there. Yeah. Even though he had like the worst numbers. And they got a pretty tough schedule coming up too. They do. They just look at it too. Really tough games coming up for Dallas.

Miami on Friday, Clippers, Wizards, Suns, Jazz, pistons, pelicans, warriors leading up to the deadline. Tough. We mentioned earlier the Kings being up to third. So they are just, They keep on trucking and they're taking advantage of these teams that are like struggling or injury-laden.

And again, another team where we talked about them last week and kind of what I think they need, but they, great vibes. They seem to love the new coach and they're all having these great seasons. They're getting their flowers for the first time in many cases. And they kind of threw together a really good roster after just decade plus. of wild incompetence. They have really thrown it together and have become this great story.

The whole Light the Beam thing is just fun. It just is. Did you hear them chanting it in the Lakers Arena? Isn't that crazy? What was that about? It's pretty cool. Light the Beam? In the Crypto Center.

One thing we do in any mention is the heat have been super surging. About 13 out of 19 or something. something like that. Another team that's taken advantage of, you know, some of these teams that have been falling off. And some of these we predicted. Some of them, maybe we didn't see coming, you know, but Brooklyn, tough time without KD, New York, now without Mitchell Robinson, Indiana. Once they lost Halliburton, it's been going the wrong way. Like, you've got a bunch of these teams that, and Miami had the most wins of any team in the Eastern Conference. just a year ago. But they've righted the ship,

and they're now 25 and 21, and their bench has been fantastic for them. They haven't had, they have gotten, they played two games last week, and it was against the Bucks without Janus, and then they played the Pelicans without a bunch of their guys. But the heat had dealt with their own absences all season. their preferred starting lineup

has only played 15 of 46 games and they have only had Butler, Bam, and Hero available for 22 of the 46 games. That's kind of crazy to think about it. So, all and all, that's actually not that bad of a record when you consider, you know,

that's just your main guys. 15 of 46 games, they've had their lineup and 22 of the 46, they've had their three best players with Bam Butler and Tyler. And so, of course, their record stinks in those games. But they've righted the ship and the heat have been 13.6 points per 100 possessions better

with Bam out of bio on the floor than they have been with him off the floor, which is kind of wild. I mean, BAM's been, I mean, he should be an all-star this year for the heat. I know there's a lot of great candidates, and there's only so few spots, but he's having the best offensive season of his career. Spolster's talk so much about feeding him the ball, getting him as many touches as possible, and he's excelling.

And he's the enforcer of one of the best defensive lineups in all of basketball. The guys that they have been starting, Lari, Hero, Butler, Martin, Atabio, they're one of the best defensive units in the entire league, you're looking at the higher usage lineups, you know, they're right up there in defensive rating. Those guys have been awesome. And Bamatabio is quite clearly a big part of that

with his ability to play in any scheme at all, whether it's drop, hedge, blitz, switch, zone. He can do it at all on defense. Yeah. And so, you know,

they're kind of like the, I don't know, like the Ravens or somebody like that, right? They're just always good. They're always good. And it's just a, it's a matter of time.

And so they've kind of righted the ship. The draft guide. It's the last thing I wanted to get to today. That came out. It dropped. And I love the draft guide. Let me just say, I always praise this to you. And you know, I'm being sincere.

I love the way it's set up. I love the graphics and the pictures. I love the comps. Like, I love draft stuff. And so I am so thankful that this is coming out in January, because then I can like kind of scroll through. I can see where guys are now. Nobody's holding you to any of this.

But it just gives me a good template of guys to check out so that if I see Baylor's on TV, then I know I'm checking out Keontte George and focusing it on him. Or maybe I'll seek out Cam Whitmore from Villadover, the kid from South Carolina, which Gigi Jackson, by the way, is an awesome name. It's a great name.

Yeah. And if you really want to get serious, can just call him Gregory. So a lot of good names in this, dude. You got Wemby. It's a great name draft. Taylor Hendricks. Dude, Wemby and Scoot being at the top.

Jet Howard. Amen and Azure Thompson, which is great. Grady Dick. Come on. Pause. Gigi Jackson, great name. Jet Howard, great name. Yeah, great name.

How about Noah Clowny? Clowny for two. It's just a good name. I love to Aaron announcer saying that. So do you think a dick jersey is going to sell a lot or not as men? Depends of the, probably the fan base. Depends on the fan base. Less so in Utah.

Well, it should sell a million if he goes to Philly. You're all dicks. Yeah. Yeah, Philly, a Boston, New York. You think they like Dick Jersey? A lot of, yeah, they'll love the Dick jerseys. What a name. And plus, like, also with Dick, he has such a likable style of play.

How is he not at Duke? I mean, really. Yeah. There are really a lot of great names in this year's drafts. Great names. Yeah, it's a great name drafts. All right. Who was the guy that you first got people saying,

how is this guy not on this list? Because you list, what is it? You list 30 guys. So right now, we have on the back end, I think like 50 profiles built, but we're launching with 30. So I think,

I haven't really seen any tweets today. Like, how do you not have Andre Jackson from Yukon? How do you not? I did see one saying, like, how do you not have the G League guys? Oh.

Leonard Miller was one of them. I mean, I haven't been in the 30s. I don't think it's that big of a difference, 33 or 25, 26. It's not a dramatic difference. But no, I didn't really see any of those today, Chris. No. Okay.

And this thing that came out is this is your favorite players right now, right? So what came out today is the big board with my top 30 players. Yep. And the mock drafts, taking those 30 players and inserting them into a first round mock draft. So like the Grizzlies, they are drafting, De Ron Holmes, who I have in my top 30, going to the 28th pick, even though I have him ranked higher. So there's the mock, which is best fits, where they might go based on their general range. So like Nick Smith, for example, in the mock draft, is going seventh. I don't have Nick Smith seventh on my big board.

I have him lower than that. Nick Smith, a guard out of Arkansas. So the board is personal. The mock is what could end up happening. I'll tell you this. Oh, that Dearon Holmes that you said, like you just mentioned that that was Memphis and I was looking at him.

If there's any team that would know everything about that kid, it would be... Oh, it's the gross. Because that's where James Kane is. The guy that discovered Morant is an assistant for Anthony Grant at Dayton. Oh, yeah.

You've given out some state secrets here, Chris. He is. I mean, now, now, now, now, No, no, no, Grizzly's fans are going to be connecting Holmes in Memphis. I don't know. I'm buddies with the guy. I love James King. Holmes is really good, dude.

I like him a lot. Oh, really? Yeah, I like him a bunch. Yeah. I've got some dating gear I wear every once in a while. Yeah. Yeah, I was watching, I was watching some Holmes last year and like some of the high school stuff, less footage of him then, but like last year compared to this year, and it's like,

what a dramatic difference, how much better he's gotten. Interesting. Yeah, I like. Check him out. Holmes is a really good, good late first round pick, maybe higher. Oh, I'm excited to check out a lot of these guys, especially now as college basketball. We start to, once you get to February, we start to get down the home stretch more towards conference tournaments and conference play is now going. Intense games, better matchups.

This is where college basketball gets more exciting. This is a fun draft class, man. I really like this class. There's a lot of late first round picks. seconds from like oh yeah Hame Hockes I'd love to have him on my team in fairness

you love every draft not necessarily sure yeah we've been together seven years there's never been a draft you didn't love well here's the thing though Chris you gotta admit though the drafts in the last five years

are stronger than they were in the 2000s in the early 2010s even they're better now sometimes sometimes sometimes A lot of the time.

We've had some duds recently. We have. We've had some duds. We have. I don't think it's, it's not very easy. Drafting is not easy. Nerkich went what,

like 16th? Compared to Yokic who goes 41st? I mean, like drafting is not easy. I mean, you think about, you know, if I were going to say,

if I were going to ask people, and I know there's going to be some LUCA people, but if you were going to say, who is the best player in the world, people would probably say Yokic or Yonis Yeah, Yokch goes 41

and Yonis goes 15th and Lucas goes 3 right you know and and a team traded them I don't know of any of those guys like if you think about all the best players

even Embed he didn't go in the top two neither did Tatum Gildjus Alexander's like fourth in the league fifth of the league in scoring. He's like back part of the lottery. The Yokch, Nurkich one

is just so amazing though. Oh, crazy. Yokish, they played in the same league. They faced each other overseas. And yet Yokish goes 35 picks later than Nurkich. Same team.

Yeah, for Denver. Yeah, early in their career, they're playing on the same team. Yes. People still sometimes prefer Dirkich over Yokish at the time. Same team. It's crazy. Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Yeah. So anyway, draft guides out. Go to the record.com and you can pull up KOC's draft guide, which has already dropped. Kevin, it's always a pleasure. Thanks to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. I will talk to you next week. Have a good weekend.