The Mismatch - Dallas Advances to the NBA Finals, Wolves Exit Interviews, and an Offseason Lookahead

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Verno and KOC congratulate the Dallas Mavericks as they beat the Timberwolves and advance to the Finals to face the Celtics (01:07). They discuss Luka Doncic’s brilliant Game 5 performance, and give credit to Mavs GM Nico Harrison for finally building the right roster around Luka. Next, they debate what the future holds for the Timberwolves, as they are nearing the second luxury tax apron and will face several restrictions when it comes to improving the team (18:08). Do they run it back? Or will they look to make a trade and retool for next season? Also, the guys answer what lessons can be learned from the impact that Dereck Lively II has made with the Mavs (43:47). Lastly, the guys talk about prospects who are going to return for another season in college, and how NIL has completely changed the game when it comes to prospects deciding to go pro (51:50). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody. Justin Vera here from group chat on The Ringer NBA show, and we want you to come hang out with us for a live podcast recording on Tuesday, June 18th at 8 p.m. Bigwas, Rob Mahoney, and I are kicking off the Ringer residency at the L. Ray Theater in Los Angeles. Get your tickets now at the ringer.com slash events while they last. Hope to see you there. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me see it does every Thursday night from The Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'O.C.O.O. Concer. Kevin O'clock.

Kevin O Conflict, Kevin O Camer, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Fierrean, Kevin O'Fierre. Kevin O'Birdow! I think if I were the wolves, I would have rather have gotten swept and lose like that at home in front of my home fans. Just terrible. Embarrassing, pathetic. Not a great game five. I was really looking forward to this one, too. You know, backs against the wall.

saw the good performance. Town shows up, Ant shows up, Aunt says he's going to bring back Micah Parsons, some Ant ones for Game 6. I guess he's going to have to find a shipping address because they are not going back to Dallas. But he figured, you know, it's an unbelievable crowd, a market that's been starving for this moment for so long, and their team just threw up an absolute stinker.

when it mattered most. And the crazy thing is, if I did not tell you the context of the game, Kevin, you would have thought Dallas was their ones with their backs against the wall that had to win this game. Every loose ball, every 50-50 play, it felt like the Mavs were doing it. And their star was acting like a guy going for the jugular. And the performance that Luca had in that first quarter set the tone for the rest of the game. That was unbelievable.

I mean, he hit floaters, he hit threes from the logo, he hit pull-up threes, he did absolutely everything in that quarter. He was making his teammates better with assists. Luca, I mean, look, dude, this guy after losses in the playoffs now averaging over 35, he has eviscerated teams and close-out games on multiple occasions.

We saw him do it against the jazz. We saw him do it against the Suns years ago in 2022. The Jazz blew it up after that. The Suns traded their entire core. That was the final year they had Bridges and Cam Johnson and all those guys. And now we saw him this year. What a hell of a run? Goes through the Clippers.

Goes through the Thunder. Goes through the Timberwolves who just took down the defending champions. Luca at age 25, man. He's won some championships. championships overseas. He's once MVP's overseas. Doesn't have his NBA MVP yet, but now a chance for a finals MVP

for an NBA finals championship to add to his already Hall of Fame resume. The dude just gets done in these big games, man. That scream he had in the first quarter after the three, then the trash talk, who's crying MFer to the To Rolves fan,

the dude is just a killer. I think he gets off on doing this to on the road against fans like this. There's Toby-esque elements to him. That's what it is now. But one of the things that I think we have to remember is that this is what having a 22-year-old as your best player on the other side is.

Once upon a time, that was Luca Donchich. Luca Donchage wasn't everybody going, oh, my God, what a killer. When he lost to the Clippers in six, when he lost to the Clippers in seven. Are you sure? Are you sure about that? He had 46 in a close out to the Clippers.

He had 38 and another close out to the Clippers. It wasn't Lucas' fault. He was amazing in those series. But he lost both those series. Yeah, but he was incredible in both those series. Lost in six, lost in seven. Then they beat Utah and Phoenix. But he was amazing.

At 20 years old, he was incredible. Kevin, the last time we saw him in the playoffs, they lost in five games to the Warriors. Yeah, but you listed two games. But you listed two games. But you listed two games where he was incredible. Like you're saying, like, it wasn't always like this with Luca. Yeah, it was always like this one, Luke.

It was like this with Luca before he was even in the NBA. Those are first round losses. And he's obviously, you were just talking about how he is a better defender now, how he makes his teammates better. Earlier in the playoffs, I told you, that's fine that he scored a bunch of those points in those games. He was also responsible for 50% of the offense. offense, 40% of the offense. His usage rate is down dramatically

from what was losing basketball. Big Luca moments. Big Luca moment. The Maverton-improve the roster dramatically around him. And he has become a better team basketball player as well.

For sure, he has. He's a better defender now. He's in better shape. I mean, he's mastered offense even more than he did at that time. He also depends. He defends. I mentioned that. Like he's a better at-room finisher at that point. He's better at everything now than he was then.

But that doesn't change the fact he was still that guy then. It's just the rosters weren't up to par. I mean, that's the whole thing with kind of the discussion a lot of people are having, like, ooh, how does Luca at this age compared to LeBron at this age? Well, LeBron had some crap rosters that he dragged into the playoffs at that time. Luca had some crap rosters that he lost in the first round with or some iffy. in average rosters. And at this point,

he's got a really great roster. The Mavericks have built this out with two great room-protecting centers and Gafford and lively, a ton of good wings, whether it's, you know, you've got a bunch of guys, you've got PJ Washington,

Maxie Cleve is back, Derek Jones, obviously Kyrie Irving in the back court is a co-star. This is a really strong roster that Luca has now in his age 24 season. He turned 25 in February.

But, I mean, this is as great as Luca's ever been and as great as his roster's ever been. That's why they got a real shot to win it all right here. It's a strong roster. I don't think it's that good without him. Of course not. He's still elevating it to a crazy level, right?

Because he's one of the two, three best players in the world. There's no question. And he's been through. And aside from Victor, there's probably not another guy, 25 his age or younger that you'd take. Well, and now you can look around. at their roster and going forward, you know, Gafford and PJ are both 25, so they're right in line with him.

Very young. Josh Green is 23. Lively's obviously a rookie. And Kyrie's 32 right now. And Kyrie was unbelievable, absolutely unbelievable in this game tonight, which was turned out to be a closeout game for them. And he has been so much better than anyone could have ever. expected. I mean, big credit goes to

Nico Harrison. The stock was so low on Kyrie Irving at the time and I think even last year, it was so clunky once they added him. It was like, is this going to work or is

this going to be another one of Kyrie is not going to be the teammate that is he's going to be a distraction or he's going to say something crazy or he's going to be a malcontent, right? Like there were the stories about him not talking to teammates at Cleveland and this and this and this.

And he's grown. And look, he would not be, he would not be the first person to move from Brooklyn to Texas and get a lot happier. That has happened many times. I think for the average person, much less an NBA player. That being said, he's been great. He's been a great teammate. He obviously has this great connection with Donchich. and they are one hell of a duo.

So much so of a duo, I got so tired of them talking about it. I swear to God, they were like defending themselves talking about how great of a backcourt it was the whole game because there was just nothing else to talk about. That game was over by halftime. And you saw, I don't know.

29 at halftime, 31 first bucket of the second half. That was absurd. I mean, they put up a graphic at halftime. Luca and Kyrie at halftime had 44 points. The Minnesota Timberwolves had 40. Isn't that something else? Luke and Kyrie had 17 field goals on 27 shots. The Timberwolves had 15 field goals on 43 shots.

Luca and Kyrie had six three-pointers on 10 attempts. The Timberwolves had two three-pointers on 12 attempts, and Luca and Kyrie had six assists. The Timberwolves as a team had six assists. Hell, Luca outscored the T-Wolves 20 to 19 in the first quarter. By himself. By himself. I don't know.

You know, this is one of those, you know, and it's one of those things. It did not work out for me in the last round. But one of the things I've said many, many times on this show is, for the last 80-plus years of NBA history, the best player usually wins and the best player didn't win last round against Minnesota or against Denver but came around this time and there's no question

the best player on the floor and the best player in this series was Luca oh not even not even close he's the best player in the next one too I mean Michael Jordan Jr. was nowhere near what it felt like he was against Denver last round Anthony Edwards you know he fell back

down to earth and you know he still had a very good series i think overall i know he had some you know or gave it early early in the series he wasn't quite as good as he was later in the series i still wonder if he might have been dealing with something after his hard fall in the last round like he just still didn't seem totally right but then again you see him have that like magnificent dunk where he looks totally healthy so i don't know i mean it may have just been the fact dallas's defense is often overlooked here i mean dallas's defense is outstanding. The wing defense they have,

the interior defense they have, their schemes that they use, which has been different every single round against the clippers, the thunder, and then now against the Timberwolves, every round they're doing different stuff out there, and they have great personnel. And I think that played a factor

with Anthony Edwards, not playing quite as well as he did against Denver last round or any other point in the playoffs either. I just think with Dallas, man, like, you look at the way in which that roster has been built out, man.

You mentioned them earlier, Nico Harrison, their GM. He's hit on every single transaction that he's made. Like the buy low on Kyrie, Daniel Gafford and PJ Washington at this year's deadline, getting Derek Jones Jr. You got guys like... Well, he blew... They blew the Grant Williams thing, but they made up for it.

They did. And Grant Williams... They fixed it. The idea of Grant Williams made sense. Right. It's just like it didn't work out in reality, but they quickly pulled the plug on that. Some front offices, I think, would stick with it.

Like, we made this move. We're going to give it time. They weren't so stubborn, and they decided, okay, we realize we made a mistake here. Let's pull the plug on it and make something better of it. And that's exactly what they did. And I think a lot of teams, like I said, they'd be stubborn there and wouldn't make that change. But they sought out a better acquisition and they found it in PJ Washington. Yeah, I think he did himself in.

There's this story that went around. and I'm going to, I do not remember the details, but I'm just, this is a basis. Michael Finley was doing some interview and I believe it was Grant Williams that he said, was like doing the whole like, come on, man, we got to try and practice. You know, Luca was kind of being sluggish in practice or whatever and was like, you know, he's barking at him, whatever. And Luca grabbed the ball and went out there. And Finley was like, the whole gym was on fire.

Like he scored like 30 straight points. like, oh, is this what you wanted? Is this what you wanted? Because I just scored 30 straight points. Like, if I want to, I can do this whenever I want to, right? And so there was a personality clash that went on with him. But again, and they've given up picks in the future. You know, you could say, oh, well, they mortgaged away some future assets,

which they may pay for later down the road. But when you mortgage away future assets, it's sometimes the short term is worth the long term. And I think it's much like the discussion we had about Minnesota on the other side. There's going to be hell to pay when you don't have all of these draft picks in order to add young players around Anthony Edwards and cheaper contracts around Anthony Edwards because he gave up five first rounders to make the go bear trade. But once you do it, you're doing it so that you can be in this spot. right and you're one of the final four teams and honestly this is a massive disappointment that'll make this series look more disparate than it was in those I mean four of the they play

five games four of them I mean they had the lead like five minutes left to go yeah close very close and I think it's an experience thing and like it's just sometimes you got to tip your cap and say you don't have luca dantsich this guy's one of the best five guys in the league but you got to know one day your guy is going to be that guy. And I believe that. One day their guy, Anthony Edwards, is going to be Luca Donchard.

He's going to be the one. I mean, where I'm saying the kind of guy that with five minutes left to go, you're like, oh, no, they've got him. You hope. I mean,

I think the one difference between Ants and Luca is the playmaking aspects, where, like, Luca just controls the game in every single way. And Ants, that creation ability, like, I think he's made progress for sure, but he still has a ways to go in terms of being someone that is in control of the game. Luca was in control as a teenager.

And that's the difference between who Luca is and who Aunt is and who Aunt can be. And I, like, with Ant, it's got to become, like, that's why he gets compared to Jordan. That's why he gets compared to, like, that line of player to Kobe, to Jordan, that type of player, because it's score first. If Anthony Edwards can become such a dominant score and then play makes off that, Luca could, if he wanted to be, was pass or first. He could get 18 assists per game

rather than be 35 point per game guy. Like, Luca could be both. He can toggle between the both, regardless of the defense you throw at him. There's no answer for Luca, the way in which you defend him. He will find the open man. He will be able to create shots

if he knows that second man is coming. He's in control of the entire game. Anthony Edwards, it felt like any time he called a screener up, there's like nothing. There's no answer. And that's in part because the roster construct, Minnesota can make improvements. You could argue that they don't have enough spacing in part because of Gobert or Kyle Anderson. You can say McDaniels isn't good enough of a spot-up shooter.

You can look at a number of different factors from Minnesota. But Ant has a long way to go. And I think that was revealed this series when we saw the flashes of upside in the last two rounds. But this series revealed a lot, I feel. Well, I mean, obviously, Lucas 25 came into the league very young. Edwards came into the league very young as well. And we talked about maybe the timelines being moved up a little bit. Usually guys are 27 or maybe even later before they win the first time.

And that's what I think about it. I think about it through the prism of when Anthony Edwards is 26 or 27, he's going to be one of the best five players in the league. Yeah. That's all I mean. Yeah. And I expect he will improve dramatically. because he has improved dramatically.

He's already on an all-N-B-A team as of this year, and I'd imagine if his health goes his way, he will be on all-N-B-A teams as far as we can see for some long amount of time. With Fandul, it's never too late to get in on the action this NBA playoffs, because right now new customers get $150 bucks and bonus bets with any winning $5 bet.

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$10 deposit required. Bonus bets are non-withdrawable, expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsport. Fandul.com. Do you want to talk about Minnesota future a little bit right now? Yeah, I mean, I just,

it's just kind of on my mind as we're talking about Ant because they accelerated trading for Gobert, giving up everything that they did, and it worked in the sense that they found themselves in the Western Conference finals. They had the best defense in the regular season, the best defense through two rounds, and then it just all fell off.

part against and maybe if it was a different matchup you know this whole thing has been about matchups kev what if they got to play denver in the west finals then what yeah yeah yeah then they're there right then they're unfortunately

they played Denver last round that wasn't the west finals and then they ran into a guy that buzz sawed them they did not they were not well equipped to deal with two guys that are drop coverage assassins totally I mean, and their defense was terrible, like the whole series compared to what it was during the regular season.

I mean, but this was a topic even before this whole run began. It was a topic before the season with the second apron. The fact that their salaries are so enormous, they have Jada McDaniels who goes from making $3.9 million to now $22.6 million next season. The roster becomes very expensive and they will be in the second apron where the restrictions are. you cannot acquire a player in a sign and trade. You do not have access to the $5.1 million mid-level exception. You don't have the ability to send out cash in trades. You cannot take back more money in a trade than what you give out.

You don't have the ability to aggregate salaries in a deal, which means you couldn't trade, let's just say, Leonard Miller with Nikiel Alexander Walker. You could only trade one of them. You can't trade two in a deal, which is a crazy restriction. You can't use your traded player exceptions. You can't create new trade player exceptions. You can't sign a waves player during the season. There's just so many restrictions for teams over the second apron.

And that is inevitably this off-season going to raise the question, do you try to get under the second apron to give yourself more flexibility in making trades? Is that worth potentially the loss you experience if it does mean moving McDaniels? It does mean moving towns or even moving Gobert. Like, get creative if you want to, however you want to. But I just think with Minnesota that is going to be, it's going to be the question that they need to answer first and foremost entering this summer. Do you run it back with a team that felt so close, even within this series where you lose in five?

They still felt close. They didn't lose these games by a lot, except for this one. I don't know the answer at this particular moment. I want more time to think about it, but my initial gut is, I am completely willing to explore trades involving Carl Anthony Towns. He had a significant year. There's a great year for him. He improved a lot what he could do on defense.

He was vital to them having one of the best defenses in basketball. But at the same time, getting to this level, the falling, the missed shots. Stan Van Gundy said it during one of the games. It felt like he was overthinking everything. And maybe that's because it's a guy getting to this level for the first time in his career, but he's also going to be 29 next season. It's not like he's young. as a near seven-footer. To me, I'm exploring trades with Carl Anthony Towns, and I'm looking

for a point guard, even if it keeps me over the second apron. I'm trying to reshuffle. You've got Nas Reid on the roster. I really am bullish on Leonard Miller. Even a guy like Jaylen Clark, a two-way contract rookie that you signed this year after he had a leg injury that knocked him out for the entire season. He's big and strong and long. I think you have other guys where I'm at least exploring. I'm not saying I would trade him. But that's the number one thing I'd be looking for is, is there something we can move cat for that makes us better and makes us in a better financial position? Well, it's an obvious one, considering his salary goes from $36 million to $49 million. Oh, my God.

And then $53 and then $57 and then $61. So that's an obvious one. Yeah. They also, I think, look, when they sign Nasreed and they signed Jade McDaniels and they signed, they signed Mike Conley, I think that was the acceptance that we're fine going into the second apron. We're trying to win now, okay? We're trying to win right now.

And most of these teams, I think what they're going to do is play it like, you know, you listed all those restrictions. Well, you get down to the, but I think what it enables you to do is you've got a two-year window. You've got a two-year window. and when they signed Mike Conlin to that extension, and when they signed McDaniels or they signed Reed, like to me,

that's a sign of, all right, here's our two-year window. And then because once you're, you can't be in it three years. So you're going to have to get back under it by that third year. But I do think for the next two years, I think,

and again, we never know because of the whole ownership issue that's going on there. But I could for sure see them just saying, you know what? We, this is what we signed up for. Like, this is the team we were willing to pay for. I don't think this went so badly, you know, given how close they were in these games.

Like, I would view this differently than, say, like, the other side with Indiana. Right. Indiana is much more flaky in terms of, it's much more Atlanta-esque. It's much more like we were in the East Finals, but there's a pretty extended. circumstances. We like our team, but in terms of team evaluation, are we a true finals team? Whereas if I'm Minnesota, I go, look, even if I just ran it back, I got one of the best four teams in the league, and I got a chance at doing this all over again, and hopefully lessons learned, and we catch a different matchup. Yeah. I mean, I agree. I totally understand

your point to your window, but it's a two-year window, and you all to want to make the most of that second year. And that's where I just think is. Well, no, the two-year window would start next year, right? Because you can't be in the second apron three years. So you got two more years. Well, and then you're going to look up and Conley's old, Gobert's old. I mean, this was, this, this roster is built to win right now,

except for the fact that their star is 22. So you pressed fast forward on everything except your best player. Is that, does that true though? like is it because of Ant? I know Ant could have been better this series, but like he also was good. He was not like if you're, if you're doing the blame game. But look at the age of the rest of that roster. No, what I'm saying is look at the age of the rest of the roster. This is not a five and six year run, Kev. No, no, no. I agree. This is a win now roster.

And that, that's what I mean. It's like, I think there should be urgency is my point because a lot of the supporting cast is holder. And I know Aunt is young, but assuming progress for Ant next season, and then you assume the year after that, I want to really make the most of that two-year window. And that's where I'm saying I would be looking for trades. I would be because I want to make the most of those two years. Like one name I want to throw out there, would you consider trading Carl Anthony Towns for Tray Young? Would you trade Cat for Trey that gives you a point guard? It puts Conley in a backup role

and it gives Ants support and shot creation. It activates Gobert on offense because Trey is one of the best ever at throwing lobs and it protects Trey on defense when you still would have Gobert and Nasreid and McDaniels and Ants and all these guys. Cat for Trey feels like a potentially mutually beneficial trade for me when I look at both those rosters.

What is the chance is? I know that this is crap on cat night, but what are the chances. Cat was the man in Minnesota in a losing situation for a long time. And he moved aside. It said, no, this is the guy. You think that's going to be true of a guy like Trey Young? You think he's walking into a situation and being fine, being the second fiddle?

Yeah, well, I mean, have you ever seen Trey Young be a second fiddle? I mean, look, I've been anti-Trey. I've been a Trey hater for a long time. but I'm also willing to make moves that I think give my team a better chance of winning a championship. You could say the Raptors, well, should they really trade the face of their franchise,

DeMar de Rosen, for a guy who's been injured and going to be a free agent in a year in Kauai Leonard. I mean, I think they made the right choice even though Kauai's hobbling at the end, and even though he left in free agency, they won our championship. And with Trey, despite all his flaws as a player, he is only 25 years old.

And when I'm looking at him fairly, I've been a hater of him in the Atlanta context. I'm a fan of Trey in certain contexts. I'm a fan of him in that Minnesota context. I think a lot of the flaws that he has become less significant. And Trey, I mean, would he accept, you know, deferring to Anthony Edwards? Would he be willing to shoot more spot-up threes? I don't know the answer to that question.

If he didn't, let's just say that trade happened, cat for Trey. And if Trey didn't accept that in Minnesota, He'd be a career loser if that happens. But the upside of accepting that is completely stepping forward in your career and doing the things that are necessary to play winning basketball at the highest level. And for a 25-year-old, you mentioned how Ants 22, well, Trey's still only 25, and there's still a chance that he has further growth to experience. I think he made some steps towards that this season, playing under Quinn Snyder,

playing next to DeJante Murray. So my belief in Trey this season actually increased. whether he's in Atlanta or elsewhere, I hope it's elsewhere because that Atlanta situation is a mess. But my belief in Trey Young actually increased this season with what I saw from him. By the way, the best defensive season of his career, still below average, but better than terrible.

If I'm moving off of towns, I'm moving it, in my opinion. I'm not moving it for like a one-player star like that. I'm building out around Anthony Edwards with multiple guys. One note on that, Chris. He's an all NBA guy too, so he gets paid a fortune as well. My only counter to that is they have the 27th and the 37th pick in this year's draft, which is deep with good role players. To me, that's the path where you go get role guys.

Get somebody who's ready to contribute right away. Chris Finch is somebody that I think would embrace playing a younger guy, especially when you have an older roster. He's just more of an open-minded coach, I think, with working with a front office. Rather than say like the conversation around Denver, where Booth drafted three rookies. Malone was unwilling to play two of them throughout the entire season. He cut loose one of them pretty early on.

I think Finch would be a bit more connected and open to that if that were the path they ended up going, if they drafted two rookies. You think a point guard is the best kind of, like we're looking for a, you know, if you think, if you think, hey, it needs a better number two.

I mean, I'm also thinking about like, well, what's the alternative? I mean, I'm not sure if there's a, I just don't know if there's actually another alternative than that makes any more sense than Trey. Like if you're going, well, we always talk about the guys that we think are going to get traded

and then everybody gets traded in this league. Yeah. You know, it's never who we think. It's never who we think. We always talk forever about the same names. And where's this guy going? Where's this guy going? Where's this guy going?

And then it's always like, oh, wow, I can't believe that guy got traded. I can't believe this guy got traded. Sometimes it is those guys, you know? I mean, we usually spend a lot of time talking. Who else? What's that? Jimmy Butler, who else? You know, I'm just curious. Like, you got to trade for Butler? Trade cap for Butler.

That would be the funniest trade ever. That would be hilarious. We'll say this. Look, they made their first finals in 20 years. And they had made the Gobert Trade, which did not Yeah, yeah, conference finals. And they made the Gourbetter trade, which had not looked good.

But then they, much like Dallas, and I read John Hollinger's article a couple, maybe it was last week. It was really good. It was about how sometimes, like, it's the first trade might be a mistake, but then you go and fix it with these other things. Or it could have been a mistake. And then you fix it. And so the Gaubert thing looked pretty bleak. and then they went and got Mike Conley and they went and got Nikiel Alexander Walker, actually, in that deal too.

And both of them became absolutely essential and really unlocked. You know, sometimes you could double down on some mistake. You know, you hear about this all the time. It's like, oh, we drafted this quarterback. And so every year we're just going to keep on drafting receivers, receivers, receivers. And it's like, it wasn't that we kept missing on the receivers. Like the original mistake was the quarterback, and we just kept compounding. it by saying the reason he's not good is because he didn't have receivers.

In some cases, you can make a deal like the Gober's deal and say, you know what, but DiAngelo Russell, this ain't, this ain't it. And if we're going to fix this, then we need to, and they did by getting Alexander Walker, who really found a home at a good situation, and obviously Conley was absolutely perfect for them. and so I think you got a lot to be proud of you know that Minnesota crowd was all cheering them on at the end and it's going to be a very interesting offseason I mean I'd be worried about screwing it up

I get that it's never fun to just say run it back but how bad is running it back when you knocked off Denver and you were there and yeah you got done in by Luca but maybe the next time around and you could say, well, you know, it's not Anthony Edwards' fault, but like, who's taking over the game with five minutes left to go?

They had two guys that did. Luca took over the game. Karee took over games. Minnesota didn't have somebody to take over the games. And I think that will eventually be Edwards. Oh, try on. I mean, we're just going to, we're just going to move past Anthony Edwards' development and just hand it over to Tray Young. No, no, no, no.

I'm saying, then you have two. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Then you would have two. Well. And one of those guys would make the big center, Gobert, more relevant in those situations, too. Ante needs to get better at throwing lobs. His, like, him and Gobert need to spend a lot of time in the gym this summer.

right like travel to france and practice with him like during the like off moments with the french national team i mean i know you're with team usa but like you guys got to get some time together like you just you got to get in the gym and they're going against each other but you got to get some time together on the court like he's got to get better at playmaking with with rodie gober and he is better this season than he was last season when he never passed in the ball but that's going to improve a lot like you can't have gober so be so meaningless at the end of games Yeah. I mean, are you going to get him a hand transplant or something?

I mean, the guy can't catch. I mean, let's be serious. He's like a, it's like a 78% shooter at the rim in his career. Bro, it's all dunks. Yes, exactly. 78% on dunks is not good. How do you think? How do you miss 22% of your dunks?

How do you think Obert feels looking at Derek Lively and Daniel Gaffer just getting fed dunks by his point, their point cards? And you can fault Gobert. You can say it's a misuse of, it's a misallocation of salary when you have Gafford and lively making peanuts compared to Rudy Gobert. You can argue that. But purely in a vacuum talking about basketball talent, Rudy Gobert's lob ability is completely underutilized by the Minnesota Timberwolves.

And it would be activated if they had a point guard that actually could make that pass on their team. Besides Conley, who's an old man and dealing with an Achilles injury and was questionable for these games in the series, and you can't trust them to be healthy at this point in any playoff run ever. He was not himself tonight at all. Not at all. So you can't trust that. They need a point card. They need a point card.

Undeniable. That is their number one need, in my opinion, is make Conley the backup and find a point card. You're just trying to make Gobert good, and it's not going to happen. No, it's not why. I wanted to see Minnesota take the next step, and I think that's what they need. That's why they paid Conley. That's why they signed Monty Morris for that matter. They know they need facilitators in that back court.

He was banged up by the time we got to the end. But, I mean, did they need a point guard? They just beat the Denver friggin nuggets. I know. And Mike Conley was great. I know. I know. I know.

Because they didn't beat the Mavericks? It's because Conley's going to be 37 next year, man. And he was dealing with that same Achilles issue. You just can't trust it. He's old. I mean, you want to make the most of this window? Is a 37-year-old point card going to do it?

What is making the most? I mean, you said you have two years. You're in the West Finals. I know. I'm just saying Minnesota needs to be thinking about what's the steps that we can take to become a finals team next year. Well, I think a lot of times,

the big mistake that people make is trying to make radical change. They get to this moment, and then they think they need to make a big change to get to the next one. And I think one of the lessons is that a lot of times running it back ain't so bad. And that what we have learned, I mean, look, how many years do we come on here? And it's a discussion point that they need to break up Tatum and Brown. It's like, I'm not saying a break up to, but it's like seven Easter conference finals, right?

Sure. But I'm not suggesting to break up two young guys, suggesting Carl, I got it, but you accept that that was a thing. And we look at the teams that are typically, you know, making these runs. By the way, it could still be a thing depending on what happens in the finals. Could still be a thing that people are talking about. It's just always going to be a thing. It was a thing this week on ESPN.

Did you see like on Get Up? They were talking about Brown winning Eastern Conference Finals MVP, and they're talking about Tatum's clapping in the background. You are. It's so funny. You are never going to believe this, but I'm not a big get-up viewer. Well, I saw the clip on social. Oh, oh, okay.

Yeah, no, I did not. I'm on the West Coast. That show's way too early for me. It's no chance. You are not up. They're telling you to get up, but you are not up. I get up usually at 7 a.m. 7.30 a.m. every day, but that's the show's long over by that point.

I think on the West Coast. I got to tell you, Kevin. I hate. miss that episode. Yeah. The point is that continuity and being in

the situation as a unit together, I think pays great dividends. That's why we always talk about taking your playoff scars. Look, I'm always more patient than you are when it comes to the team stuff.

I am. I am more patient about it. I mean, I've probably said this on this podcast before, but it's because of my upbringing as a Boston sports fan. I saw the Patriots make, you know, cutthroat moves. I saw them get rid of pro bowlers. I saw them, you know, get rid of lawyer and rooy a week before the season, trade Richard Seymour, a pro bowler, future Hall of Famer. I saw them do that all the time. I saw the Red Sox trade Nomar Garcia Parra, fan favorite, and then win the World Series. I saw the Celtics make big maneuvers in order to, you know, put themselves in a position to have a chance, whether it was Danny Aange trading Antoine Walker back in, like, one of his first moves after being hired as GM, a fan favorite.

I saw him make big moves with the KG, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, Error teams. Like, that's my upbringing is I've seen GMs and owners empower their GMs to make moves that go against the wishes of fans. And it's led to a ton of winning more than I ever could have asked for in an entire life to. time, you know, through my teenage years and into my 20s. It's more than I ever could have investment. So that's my upbringing is seeing teams trade great players and then win. That's where I come from. You understand how rare that is.

It's incredibly rare. I get it that that's your basis, but it's not realistic to me. Sure. But it's also not like I'm suggesting that they trade this flawless player. No, no, no, no. Carl Anthony Towns. I don't mind them moving towns. But you have talked about them moving towns and Conley and like,

No, I never said to move Conley. I said to make Conley the backup. You literally said they needed a different point guard. They do, but I never said to move Conley. I said the goal should be to make Conley a backup to alleviate pressure on him. Like, you still want Conley. He's awesome. He shoots the shit out of it.

He's a good playmaker. He's got a great chemistry with Gobert. He's tough. even though he's old, he's good on defense, I love Conley. He's still great. I never said to move Conley. I said the goal should be to minimize how much you lean on him and to have someone that provides higher upside on your team in the back court. Yes.

And then Conley becomes like the best backup point guard in the league. Then he's the sixth man of the year candidate right alongside Nas Reid. Whether it's whatever, Trey, that you've brought up or whoever, right, I do think it is. certainly most likely. I ain't trying to pay Carl Towns $49.3 million after what I just watched. And on that note, I think you have two bigs, Carl Towns and Rudy Gobert, where you can get 85% of the production at a fraction of the cost. Well, you're always going to get to this moment, too, right, with $100 million spent on centers. Exactly.

And you're always getting this moment. I think both of them, Gobert and Towns, have replaceable, skills, whether it's a guy as cheap as lively as a rookie in the Gobert role or a number of different types of players in the Carl Anthony Towns role. It might not be a six foot, 11, seven foot shooter, but it might be a six foot nine guy who brings versatility and kind of changes a little bit of what's asked from that position. But I just, to me, Towns is the guy that I'd be looking to move and I'd be looking pretty hard at it. Well, and we've obviously spent a lot of this pod talking about Minnesota and the Minnesota side because they're done.

And we're not going to be talking about them anymore until we get to the off season. Obviously, all the kudos in the world goes to Dallas and Luca Donchich and Nico Harrison, who we talked about the moves that he had made, the PJ Washington thing. And look, Luca was not a fan of it. They got criticized for it at the end of last season. And so this is one of those process and results thing, right? you can criticize the process and how they got there or and maybe in a different world. If Derek lively is already off the board, then maybe it wasn't worth it. But here's what we know.

They tanked out that last season so they'd keep their pick. And the lively thing is absolutely positively unbelievable. He just went 16 for 16. And they are a radically different team. I got super scared when he got Bob. in the back of the head by Nas Reid in this game with the flagrant one. I'm like, no way.

No way. This whole thing has been, you know, a war of attrition as we're going into the playoffs and you want to see these teams as full strength as they could possibly be. And that kid has been amazing for them. They put up,

did you see he had the plus minus for a rookie in the playoffs? It was like second all time to Manu Genooboli. I was like, Holy crap. I'm so happy for him as a person, too, after losing his mom to cancer and to be in this position right now. I can't imagine at his age the thoughts going through his mind. But, yeah, it's just pretty cool to see him thriving at that level and showing emotion after these big plays that he constantly seems to have.

It's just pretty awesome. I hope he can stay healthy. I know he had the little scare tonight with the neck issue. What do you think the lesson of him is? You know, I talked about this with my buddies last week, and it's like, here we go again with the high school phenom right at the top who kind of disappointed. Everybody ran away from. And then we look up again. It's like, oh, yeah, surprise.

Everybody would have predicted Derek lively being awesome for the first 18 years of his life. And then we watched three months at Duke and got off on him. and now, surprise, surprise. Now, in fairness, this might not be, we talk about opportunity and fit. Derek lively goes to the Washington of Wizards who may not give a crap, and maybe it's all different.

He's just Daniel Gafford. Maybe. Maybe so, right? And then Daniel Gafford's not Daniel Gafford if he doesn't get traded to the Mavs. He's in a perfect situation. Yeah. He's a perfect fit.

But, man, he is going to be he is going to be really good for a long, long time. It just has so much, I mean, just energy and athleticism. And there's so much that he brings to the table that is special. And yet we look back and people really became disenchanted with him for after his Duke, short Duke tenure, where he was not very good. Yeah, I mean, he started the year really slow and then he finished it much, much, much better. So, like, I think the growth, like, he kind of got back on track at Duke, even though he still wasn't, you know, flashing the three-point shooting upside that he showed in high school.

I don't think he's ever going to be a shooter. I don't think he was ever going to be a shooter. It's just something so many young, young bigs do now. Like, Donovan Klingin shooting threes now and, you know, workouts. We'll see if that actually translates to games or not. The one, but the one thing I do think it says is rookies can contribute. Kason Wallace for OKC, Ben Shepard for Indiana,

Derek lively for Dallas. The rookies can contribute. You can look at somebody like that's on their rookie skill contracts still, like a Andrew Nemhard, even a Peyton Pritchard. One of the better backup point cards in the NBA, he's played over 50 playoff games.

He's played in every playoff run that the Sunworks have had the last four years on a rookie skill contract. You don't have to pay him $9, $10 million as a backup. I think investing in young players that a team perceives that can help early on, whether that's a actual young guy like Lively or an upperclassman, like a Nemhart or Pritchard type, whoever it might be, rookies can offer your team a lot,

especially in this ecosystem that we're now operating in in the NBA with the apron and the second apron. So like we talk about Minnesota with the 27th of the 37th pick or any team, like the Phoenix Suns, they have the 22nd pick. Hitting on these picks is vitally important, and even more now than ever, to have a young rookie. And I think in terms of Biggs, there's the aspect of the fit you're talking about pairing him with Luca,

but somebody like Kelle Ware or Missy Adam Baylor. Exactly who I was going to say from Indiana, right? Don't you think somebody, guess what else where was? Massive high school recruits. Yes. And then he sucked his freshman year at all. Oregon. He was terrible. And then Indiana, he was really good. And also he shot over 40% from 3. Where has always been more of the shooter. But he's also a lob threat. He's also a room protector like Lively. So if you're a team like in my mock draft that's dropping next week, I'm going number nine in the drafts to Memphis. Memphis. Memphis is nine. That's right. Memphis is nine. Yes. So I have where going nine to Memphis. Even though. I believe they're trying to trade up to number three to go get clinging.

But if they stay at nine, I have them taking where in my mock draft that drops on Monday because law of threat for John Morant, Rim Protector next to Jaron Jackson, Jr. You get Twin Towers. Both of those guys can space the floor from three. Theoretically, Jackson's been inconsistent where we'll see how it translates. But you have two bigs who can shoot, two bigs who can be, you know, threats on offense. where as a rob threat, Jackson with his versatility. So I think Ware could easily become a lottery pick, just like lively did, even though he fell out of the top 10.

And Dallas kept trying to find this guy ever since Tyson Chandler. It's like Willie Collie Stein, Javall McGee, like on and on and on. Even Chris Stapps. Yeah, no. And then at the end of the year, it's frigging Dwight Powell playing center, like every time, or Maxie Kleber or whoever. Christian Wood. Yeah, they kept trying to find the. the guy that could finish.

That's a really, you're in an amazing spot. And they got two of them. Yeah. And now they've got two of them. And like they platoon them. It's like five minutes here, six minutes there,

four minutes there, just go full throttle. It's kind of cool. And speaking of platooning, and look, this is my greatest miss of the year. I was like, look,

this thing ain't going to go at the beginning of the year. I was like, if there's a team where it's like, it ain't going to go the way it should, and they're going to blame a coach, it'll be Dallas because of the way last season ended and now this year. But Jason Kids done an unbelievable job.

You talk about how they platoon them. But they are so well prepared. They are so well game planned against these other teams. And their defense went from just whatever to post the trades. I mean, they're the number one defense in the league. To go along with an offense that was devastating against me. Minnesota and even more devastating in crunch time when it matters most. So we got to give Jason Kidd a lot of credit.

Another guy that people would have pulled the plug on but has showed up and, you know, the better your roster is the better you're always going to look as a coach. But coaches grow too. And I think this has been a hell of a run for Jason Kidd for sure. No doubt. That team takes on his toughness too. You see the way they respond and the kind of swagger that they have. And the other thing is, you hadn't heard one thing about Kyrie since he's, you know what I mean?

The whole year. And Jason Kidd was, you know, he was known during his day as a guy that was not the easiest to quote handle. Right? Because he's got a hard head himself sometimes. But he is, he's gotten that team to play together and it's done a very, very good job. Very good job with that, with that Mavericks team this year. They collectively done a hell of a job. Front office to put the roster together and kid and that coaching staff to put the defense together and make it click.

They just needed Mark Cuban to sell them. That's it. Just get out of the boardroom. Just get him out of the boardroom. Still sitting courtside. He was there. It was weird not seeing him get the trophy tonight. I know.

And be like in the mix. He's just kind of like on the outside and a Maverick's hat. It's like he's been omnipresent with that thing for so long. And then he was kind of like on the outside looking in. I mean, he's still there. But, you know, and it kind of has now become like, hey, isn't that the guy from Shark Tank? That's what my mom says. She asks who's going to be in the finals against the Celtics.

I say the Dallas Mavericks are probably going to win the series. I told earlier that she's like, that's the guy with Shark Tank, right? Yep. We're going to do a full NBA finals preview when we get to Monday. But I got to ask you some draft things before. When did you say you're updating this thing? Monday, my big board and the mock draft are going to update on Monday.

Okay, this is perfect. So we will end up talking about it more. You're updating both on Monday. Both are going to update on Monday. New profiles, because guys dropped out this week and Newmark and everything. And also, Team Needs page,

Zach Cramm is writing the Team Needs page. That's coming out as well. Our guy, Lil Brunson, went back to school. At Bama, Mark Sears. Yeah, and his teammate, Jaron Stevenson,

kind of a versatile forward skinny, but, you know, versatile can shoot threes. He went back to. Bama could be great next year. Oh, do you think? that kid's going to be unbelievable next year. I mean, coming back to school,

how much did I love him during the tournament? So fun. Oh, Sears is awesome. He is so college Brunson. It's gross. Mannerisms, the whole thing. The footwork. He's great.

Anyways, I got to ask you about this big board thing, because I know you said you're going to be changing it around. You got to tell me about this, Nikolai Topich that you have number two? Well, I mean, let's not focus on the rankings right now. Okay. You're moving him down. The rankings haven't changed for three weeks.

That's all going to change. Get him out of here. I mean, he's still like a top five-ish guy. Oh, he is? But I'm shuffling things around. Oh, you're shuffling. Those rankings are from May 9th. Oh, okay.

So this is not relevant to our, we'll talk about it on Monday then. Yeah. You've had Topich number two since May 9th? I think I just must always click on the mock draft, so I don't see that. Yeah, most people do. I just happen to click on your big board. And I was like, in my update, I think I have them fourth. That's probably where I'm going to have them.

But anything outside of Sears, the kid that's going back to Alabama, was there any of the announcements that surprised you? Or was anybody that was on your big board and or mock draft that you're going to have to you know, adapt to now. Some guys that were on the board that dropped out. Trayvon, Brazil from Arkansas. He was on it. Peyton Sanford from Iowa.

He's kind of a shooting wing, knockdown guy. He was terrible at the combine. Alex Caravan from Yukon. Sophomore, one, obviously, both two championships there. I've heard he's going back and he's going to get over 1.5 million in NIL money. Coleman Hawkins is going to be transatl. for him. He's going to get similar amount of money as well. So, like, that's a big factor with Hawkins and Carabin, and I'm sure it's a factor with somebody like Hunter Salas and Mark Sears.

The money that's available for these projected second round picks is often far more significant in college right now than what they can make in the NBA. And so I think that's the theme of this year. It's like these college players going back and they're getting a bag drop form in order to do it. It's wild how NIL has changed everything. Two years ago, before that kid, I think he blew out his ACL, the Brazil kid, you're bringing up. Yes, he did, yep. He blew out his ACL at Arkansas.

He was on the, like, four McDonald's All-Americans team that Musselman had recruited with Anthony Black and all them. He had one of the greatest college dunks I've ever seen in my life. Oh, my God. I think I know it when you're talking about. Oh, my, I mean, it's like something from an and-one mixtape. Was it, Trevon Brazil, right? Right?

Yeah, Trayvon, Brazil, yeah. Great name. Great name. It's an awesome name. Yeah. So he'll be transferring elsewhere as well. Because obviously that Arkansas situation is a lot different than it was. Musselman leaving, going out to USC, Calgary coaching there now, bringing in his own guys.

So you got a couple of them. Maybe. Unless they bring them back, you know. Let's see. And usually these kids, they sign up to play for somebody. you know and it doesn't and the other thing is is the new coach he didn't give you the money anymore probably he's he's using that money he's using those funds on some new guys yeah with it he's bringing it so you got to go

find your money from somebody else and that's why like Coleman Hawkins is you know all indications are is that Arkansas is going hard after him and so if they're giving their money to NIL money to Coleman Hawkins, who's also a forward, that might mean Trayvon, Brazil ends up going somewhere else. Well, he may end up in my town, honestly, in Memphis, because they just lost their best player, David Jones, who decided to stay in the draft. I see. So there's a whole lot of money.

They just got freed up. So somebody's going to make a boatload of money from Penny Hardaway. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's changed everything, man. It's changed everything. It's wild. These kids can make a lot of money playing college basketball now.

That's for sure. Getting a bag of money dropped in the passenger city of your car from some shady dude you've never seen before. Now it's all legalized. I don't mind at all. I think the kids should be making money. They've got to fix the transfer rules. They have to. Yeah.

Because what I don't like is that the college teams are all different teams every year. Yes. No continuity. No continuity. You're just, it's a whole new team. every year and it's like this guy's at that school, this guy's at that school. Then,

you know, I just think it's just turn them into athletes. It just turn them into contracts. You know what I mean? That's what's going to end up being anyway. They're just going to end up having contracts. Like you signed a, like you signed a two-year deal with Kentucky.

Yeah. Correct. Or, and then now, all right, we are paying you, but you can't leave unless. And then people always say,

well, well, coaches can leave. fine. Put the stipulation that if the coach leaves, then you can leave. Yes. This is easy. It's not that common. We don't have to cry all the time because a coach leaves.

Coaches leave all the time to make more money. If everybody's making money, then we're not going to cry about it anymore, right? You know what I mean? They're not going to cry about it anymore. So I get it. But if your coach leaves, then you can transfer. Other than that, you got to sit out a year. Or you've got to live to your contract.

Teach these kids about life, too, right? Sometimes you've got to respect your contract. I mean, it is amazing to like look at it. No, right now it's the wild west, bro. I mean, it's incredible to look at some of the players. Like you look back at their college history. Like there's this guy, Jalen Tyson, who played this past year for California. And it's like his freshman year he is with Texas, his sophomore year he is with Texas Tech.

and then his junior area is with Cal. It's just like every year a guy is a different school. How is that? Who is that good for? I don't know. Might not be good for him, even though he had a great year with California. Right.

The NBA teams may not look at that as a good thing. I know. I can't wait to see the updated mock and the big board on Monday. We'll obviously talk about it. And we'll have a full-on NBA finals preview because by virtue of these series ending so fast, we got a little lag time before this thing's even starting. It's not going to get going until a week from today, right?

Next Thursday night will be game one. So that means our programming schedule is we're recording sometime on Monday. So you'll get that overnight on Monday, full finals preview. Then on Thursday we'll be reacting to game one. That night we'll be recording after game one. I won't be at the arena for that one. I'll be recording from here in L.A. You're not going to Boston?

They're not sending me. I guess there's a maximum amount. So I'm doing three and four and, yeah. In Dallas? Three and four in Dallas is where I'm getting started on the series. And we'll see from there if I stay on for all of them. But I know I'm at least doing three, four, six, and seven. Oh, wow.

I'd like to do five too. I want to wait. I want to see a game in Boston, not we have to wait until game seven. Go home for a little while and see Boston. But, you know, we'll say. Gotcha. All right. Well, we were reconvened on Monday night.

Do our finals preview. Have a big draft update. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. And Kevin, I will talk to you on Monday night. Enjoy the weekend. Must be 21 plus in present select states or 18 plus in D.C. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC.

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