The Mismatch - Dame Still Has It, Gearing Up for a Boston-Denver Collision, and Can Wemby Upset Gobert for the DPOY?

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Verno and KOC discuss the Bucks’ impressive win over the Clippers, despite being without Giannis (01:42). Dame showed us he still has some of his Portland magic as the Clippers continue to slide. The Celtics are riding high after completely blowing out the Warriors over the weekend, extending their win streak to 11. The guys then preview the Celtics’ highly anticipated Thursday night matchup against the Nuggets (20:39). After losing to the Lakers, the guys debate whether the Thunder can match their size if the two meet in the playoffs again. Plus, there is discussion of who will win the Defensive Player of the Year award (32:05). The guys also get into how Gary Harris’s shooting is impacting the Magic, why you should still be wary about the Heat, and the Kings’ fourth-quarter meltdown against the Bulls (48:48). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In a world where coaches are still the main characters, the players are now legally chasing the ultimate bag, and the game of basketball is always the top priority. There was only one brand you can trust to help you wade through all the madness. Hey, I'm Tate Frazier from One Shiny Podcast, and you can join me twice a week as we navigate the always entertaining world of college basketball. Every Monday, the ringer's comment helps me make sense of the biggest stories from the weekend, and on Fridays we talk to our many friends of the program. We're locked in on the best postseason in sports. Make sure you follow One Shining Podcasts on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mismatch.

I'm Chris Vernon, and join as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Bombermer, Kevin O'Compel, Kevin O'Climberto, Kevin O'Champton, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Well, we are now officially 75% done with the NBA season. Wow. Yep. Wow. We are 75% done with the NBA season.

So we are really headed towards the home stretch. A couple of things that have taken place since we last spoke on Monday nights games. We had a couple very interesting things take place. Good timing on your Bucks article last week. because now the Bucks have pushed their windstreet to six in a row by virtue of beating the Clippers last night. They did that without Yana Sant'Aucco and without Chris Middleton. And Damien Lillard had 41.

Looked like Old Dame. I mean, this was Portland Damian Lillard, which I think everybody has wanted to see. But this was total, space it out, throw the team on my back. I mean, he's blowing past Kauai for and ones. He's shooting threes from logos. It was, you know, he gave us a glimpse that that is still in him. I think it's very difficult for guys to assimilate to a new situation and figure out how I can be the best version of myself when everything doesn't revolve around me.

And remember when we saw it last year with Hardin and then when we get to the playoffs and, and Bede went out. And it's like, oh, wait, James Hardin still has the ability to clear it out, throw a team on his back, and be that guy. It's just more difficult to become the second banana, especially so late in your career. That's the kind of feeling I got watching that last night where it was like, man, this is what I experienced in Portland for the last decade watching them. But, you know, look, without two of your best players to beat a good team, And to have Lillard play that well, I think if you're a Bucks fan, you're feeling really good recently, right? For sure.

I mean, we talked about their defense last week after I wrote the article, breaking that down, all the improvements on that end. Offensively, I think you are seeing some of the progress that they're making with Damien Lowe having a 41-point game. He spoke about it after the game. He's asked, like, you know, are you guys running Portland plays, things that you did with the Blazers? And Dame told a story about how, like, Doc comes in, and he's like, wait, you guys aren't running that play, you guys aren't running that, let's take what you did in Portland.

Simple stuff. And the Dame, the Dame Presser was really interesting. I watched the whole thing after seeing some of the clips posted on social. He, like, just the things Dame says, like, there's just a simple stuff about him and Doc having a 15-minute conversation about priorities, objectives, things to focus on on the court, and how that happened with basically every player on the team, what to do, what not to do, what his expectations are from you, what your role is on the team. And that's just the stuff that didn't happen with Adrian Griffin, this bare minimum communication between coach and player. And I think defensively, that's showing up more than anything right now. Offensively, the team, you know, obviously Dame goes off against the

clippers. They still have to make some progress. Yonis, he has the Achilles injury right now. Hopefully he can come back healthy. Chris Middleton still out. You hope he can come back healthy at some point, whether it's a bench roll or playing 30 plus minutes per game as a starter. They still need to make work offensively. But the fact they're installing some stuff that he did his entire career in Portland, it's like simple stuff that is nice to see. And I think for Damien Lowe, over the last quarter of the season here. I would expect more good performances from him. You know, you probably would have had that stuff if Adrian Griffin and Terry Stats wouldn't have gotten into a fight. Yeah, dude. No kidding.

You know, and, you know, I was reading after you had talked about their defense and there has been a tremendous amount of improvement on that end, I'm fascinated by when you're talking about having a meeting and giving everybody defined roles and talking about what each individual guy needs to do. There's sometimes just simple things that you can clean up, one of which they have cleaned up dramatically is their turnovers are down significantly. Therefore, their transition points given up are down significantly. I mean, you're talking like seven, eight points a game, which is a huge margin in the NBA.

We know how many of these games can come down to seven or eight points. And they've gotten that down significantly. Their turnovers, you know, their turnovers weren't high under Griffin either. It's, no, it's their transition points.

Yeah, well, yeah, because it's not, it's because, like, they're not, they sometimes they would send like Pat Conitin or Andre Jackson,

whoever the wing was on the floor and just had that player crashed the boards. Right. They weren't getting back on defense. and they weren't necessarily being a heavy offensive rebounding team either. So it's like they had crashed the board principles that they are now kind of just focusing on get back, get back, get back. And it's working. It's like hustle matters, focus, effort matters and all that too.

And with their size, it's a lot harder to score. I mean, anybody's harder to score on an half cord, right? Oh, for sure. When it's pace and space, especially in this day and age. But yeah, just the fact that they don't give up so much. many easy buckets anymore. They make somebody beat them. They were worse than the league, giving up transition chances under Griffin, and now

they're one of the best in the league with defensive points allowed, fast break points allowed. And I think, like, as the weeks go by, it's now been 19 games since they fired Adrian Griffin. So that's three games with Prunty, 16 with Doc. They still have the number two defensive rating in the NBA at this time, almost 20 games in with Doc Rivers. as head coach. So I think the sample size is continuing to increase if this defense is back

to a top five level. And it's just about the offense, which has been middle of the pack over this 19 game stretch, getting that back to the top five level it was prior. And we'll see. I mean, you've got to get Yannis back, got to get Middleton back. And hopefully those guys can be healthy. Two things of great concern from that game, or at least medium concern. I think the first one is actually a great concern. Watching Janus pull up lame in the pregame. I know. Was not great.

I know. I'm going to Friday's game. Bucks Lakers. I hope he's playing. I don't know if he will be. I mean, anytime you hear about Achilles soreness or a problem, it's always something.

Now, there certainly it could be, you know, a little bone in there that ends up having to get removed. I went through this years ago with Mike Conley. And he was able to play through it and then end up getting the surgery. But at some point ended up having to get the surgery because, and again, I don't know what he's going through. But we have seen in several cases throughout the NBA, when you hear about that, there's usually some kind of issue that's going on with it.

and then they're worried that it will tear eventually. So how can we stop it from tearing? And then you've got to get what is, you know, not a super serious procedure, but serious nonetheless. And I just, I had a flashback to covering something like this with a guy that like is,

because it's very painful. You can play through it, but it's painful and it does have to be addressed. at some point and just watching him last night, I felt like, man, I've seen this before. It shit hurts bad and he's limping around after he tries to go through his warm-up. And so hopefully some rest time staying off. They're going to have to be very, very careful this last 20 games just to get him to the playoffs, honestly. And so I would not be surprised if you see him resting more off.

Often than not. But again, he's got a chance at an MVP. He's got a chance of first team all NBA. And so we're kind of into one of those sticky situations where where's that going to fall in regards to the 65. And we already had this controversy with Embed where people were saying, ah, well, maybe he's not playing. If it's not for the 65 game thing, it's certainly at least cause for pause to see him going through the warm up. He wanted to play. and then you could see it in that video clip of him going like,

ah, like, nah, this ain't doing. Like, I got to stay off this thing. And that was just warming up for the game. So keep an eye on. Obviously, all of their hopes and dreams are tied to him being available and being one of the best players in the world. So hopefully he's okay. And ultimately, Chris, like, I think with,

the bucks, if Yannis is limited in any way, dramatically increases Boston's odds. No question. No question. Now, on the other side, I do think a real cause for concern with the Clippers. I know they won that knockdown, drag out with the wolves, but they just, like, that team that got rocking through the first five games after the first, you know, five Hardin games, I told you I saw them in person.

We've come on here a couple different times. And my belief was so high. And I was like, man, I wouldn't want to play against them. And this is all worked out famously. And they were like, you know, 33 and 11 or something through those 44 games. And they have come back from the All-Star break. And I don't see it anymore. It's the craziest thing.

Some of these teams came back from the break. Boston looks amazing. Bucks playing the best. they've played all year. You know, Orlando has played really well coming out of the break. Miami has played well coming out of the break. Like there's a bunch of these teams that have played very well post all-star break. And yet the Clippers, to me, look like a very serious contender pre-all-Star break.

And I just don't see it right now. And obviously, the Russ injury is very, very, very, big. And I know they're saying they want to get him back for the playoffs, but there's a lot of position jockeying that's going to go on in these last 20-something games. Like, they need him. They need Russell Westbrook to come off the bench. And on those nights where they got some lame action going on, he can really spark things and maybe get you some mojo back. And so I think that's a big loss for them, losing Russ, and beyond that, they just haven't looked to have that same spirit and that same, like, whatever it was I feared when I watch them now

is not there. I don't know. I don't know what's happened. I mean, I think in last night's game, like Brooke Lopez spacing the floor and then Bobby Porter just going off for 28 points. Lopez did not have a big game by any means, but just the floor spacing aspect. You see Zubots benched at the end of the game and Tailu decides to go small. I do think that is one of the trends with these bigs who can space the floor, Zubots becoming a bit more neutralized versus facing a rolling interior big man. And I think for L.A., that is a concern. I think, like, Bobby Port is going off as in part due to Zubot's

skill set. You wish if you're the clippers that, you know, PJ Tucker wasn't way past his prime. Like he would, like, as a small ball solution, he would make a lot of sense. It's just he's not the same guy anymore. It doesn't even play last night. When you go quote unquote small and you have PJ Tucker on your bench, that says everything that you're not going to PJ Tucker. They just don't have that card to play in their rotation right now. And, you know, despite all the wings that they have,

I kind of wish they had one more big, you know, power forward, one more guy with size in the front court. And I just feel like the Clippers, there's no, there's no solution there on their roster. It's not like in last night's game, like that, you know, James Hardin wasn't bad. He had 29 points, eight assists. You know, Paul George, 29 points. Kauai did not have the strongest of nights. It's not like they're not getting some good performances from their stars. I just think that that center spot,

Zubots, as good as he's been, there's certain matchups where it's been exploited. And of course, you're not going to overreact that Bobby Portis going off. I know. But still, like, it's a consistent thing that happens.

It's that edge that they had and just the fact that it all seemed like it was flowing so well. And Kauai looked like one of the five best players in the world. And he was on track for 50, 40, 90. Still might be, you know. And was just, dominated. And I just, I don't know. Like, they're going to need that because the other thing

you don't see is that like leadership thing. And people can, you know, goof about it. I know that Kevin Durand has gotten bad when Barclays brought it up about Phoenix. But honestly, the guy, this is what failed them that when they were at their peak of powers when they were, when they got beat by Denver. It can't be the coach. It couldn't be Doc Rivers then. It can't be Tyloo now. Like, who is the guy that's going to rally everybody and say this shit ain't happening tonight? And I feel like there's, like, kind of a void there. A lot of times it would be PJ Tucker, but he's like completely alienated from that team. So you think about it, like, things are going wrong for that team because inevitably they will at some point during the playoffs.

And you've got to get in the huddle. Who's that guy that's like saying not tonight? Like, jump my back or whatever it is because none of them they're all kind of miscast as vocal leaders p j tucker the last time he scored a uh a bucket was november 14th what it 2000 to 2019 but yeah November 14th he scored he had two made baskets ever since then he hasn't scored a single point and nine games. So, I mean, I think for, for, it's too bad that he's not, he can't even be a quarter three guy for you right now. But that's the tough part for Tai Liu.

It's like you can, on one hand, you could probably criticize him for not rolling with Zubat at the end of the game. On the other hand, Zubots has not been quite the same level since returning from injury either. And that's part of it, Chris. Like you mentioned Kauai. He was like 50, 50, 90. Like he was shooting almost 50% from three at one point midway through the season.

When he was really rolling, average it almost 30 points per game. He is not quite at that level at this current moment. Zubots also is not quite the same level that he was. And during that mid-January stretch, it feels like to me at least watching him. I'd be curious of Clippers fans feel the same way. Well, because Hardin had turned him into a different guy. Yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. Zubots felt activated. He had a lower back injury earlier in the season. It felt like he was past that. I wonder if that's nagging at him now. It's just something is a little bit off with Zoo that wasn't there in January. He's critical to the team. He's so important as a screener for Hardin, like he said. I mean, he's a good defender when he's healthy. The perimeter guys, you know, the guys who can space, that's where there's some issues. But the Clippers just feel like there's something there's something off there. It might just be this point in the season, and there are a bunch of guys that have been in the league 15 years. We know that at their pinnacle, they've got a chance to be a title team. And so they've just got to remind us. I know they not, I won that knockdown, drag out with Minnesota. But, I mean, they, it's just, it's, it was so consistently great. And now it feels very inconsistently great.

Yeah. And they're the one team in the West that they're two and a half back from the Nuggets and the Thunder. They're three games back from the Wolves. They could move up, but they're also only three and a half up on the Pelicans, four and a half up on the Suns. They could also move down and end up being a lower seat. So they're the one team that like all these other teams are jockeying for positions, you know, five to ten that's very close in the West, one to three in the West is very close. at four, they're in that middle spot where if they do get hot, they could move up. Right.

But at the same time, like, if they continue straddling around 500, if the pelicans get hot, whoever it is, they could potentially move down too. So these games do matter a lot for the clippers still. Get buckets with your first bet on Fandul, America's number one sports book, because right now new customers get $150 on bonus bets with any winning $5 bet. That's $150 if your bet wins. Bet on all your favorite NBA players and teams with quick bets, live same game parlays, exclusive props, and much more.

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terms at sportsbook like fandle.com. Well, speaking of hot, there is nobody in the league hotter than the Boston Celtics. And we watched them over the weekend have a 52-point win against the Golden State Warriors. I was reading yesterday that during this 11-game win streak, which is their longest of the season, that they have outscored their opponents by more points than any team ever has in an 11-game win streak, which stands to reason, considering they won one of the games. by 52, but they've beaten the crap out of everybody. It really hasn't mattered.

Their point differential now is up to 11.4. And per 100 possessions, it's 11.6, which is the highest since the 96 Bulls, which was 11.8. So, I mean, they are on a historic pace, historic offensive pace. certainly this point differential, which has gotten just ludicrous, and is up there with the greatest teams we have ever seen in NBA history. It's going to be very fascinating because they've got Cleveland, this massive showdown with Denver later in the week, and then Phoenix, and they've got 12 of their next 15 on the road. But we started off talking about Milwaukee and how good they've been post-all-Star break.

you know, we wanted a collision course with the whole Doc Rivers versus Celtics and Damien Lillard versus Drew Holiday and hopefully, you know, Janice can be healthy and Middleton can be healthy and we get full force bucks, full force Celtics, but the Celtics have been running away from this thing. They haven't lost since the All-Star break. Neither has Denver. And it looks like we are, now they got that Cleveland,

game before that. But Thursday night, I can't wait to record after that one because we're about to get Celtics versus Nuggets. And that's as anticipated a regular season game as you could possibly have given both of these teams look to be playing their absolute best right now. But this Celtics thing, it's getting crazy with some of these numbers, Kev. Mm-hmm. Yep. I mean, they are on a dominant run here. It's 11 in a row, like you said, the stat about scoring teams more than an 18 during 11th streak ever. And this upcoming stretch, if they beat Cleveland, B-12, Denver, 13, Phoenix, 14. And then after that, you get Portland, Utah, Phoenix again, Washington, Detroit. There's a lot of win-able games. Oh, it could be a long win-street. Yes, it could be.

So, like, if you get past this three-game tough stretch and then Phoenix again, at one point, like, you're getting into crazy territory there with the windstreet. Well, and the only thing you can do with them, the only thing is pick nits, as they say. Yes. And that's why the Denver game is so massive because we've gotten the whole Denver is where the title runs through. This is the team we saw them play in January. and when they got in that highest level game, they scored four points on their last nine possessions against Denver. And that's where Denver has been great.

They're an amazing clutch team. They score like crazy in the clutch. They also, more importantly, crank their defense up to a different level. It's like 87 points per 100 possessions or something in this. So they ratchet. it up on defense, and then you know they know exactly what they want to get to on offense. We just saw them against the Lakers this weekend.

They scored 25 points on their last 12 possessions. And so, again, that's the only thing is the picking knit. Now you're playing an equally or possibly a great team. And I'm praying that this Boston, Denver game goes down, and we've got like a two-point game with five minutes left to go. And we get to see what both are made of. And we get to see if Boston has corrected this, okay, at some point, you're not going to be just beating the piss out of somebody and you're going to have to make the plays

down the stretch against the best of the best. And if the titles does go through Denver, as many believe, this would be the absolute best chance to prove that we're a team that there's no beating us. For sure, absolutely. No doubt about it. They get through their stretch, especially, obviously, that Denver game, because the Denver game is going to be especially interesting to me, aside from the fact that it's the Nuggets, the defending champions,

but because of the recent acquisition for Boston, Xavier Tillman, against Dallas, he was switching on to Luca, switching on to Carrie Irving. They played him next to Al Horford at times, so they had, granted poor Zingas was out in the Warriors game, so he's got getting more minutes, but playing him next to Horford, you have two physical, rangey, switchable bigs. Against Denver, I'm very, very intrigued to see what type of rotations and lineups you see Joe Missoula use out there, because with Tillman, the switchability and the physicality,

do you think that he could be one of the guys that Missoula turns to in his rotation against Yokic. Is he that guy based off your time seeing him in Memphis that he could be that physical guy against Yokic? Of course. I mean, you're going to use him. You're going to use him. You know, look, people, we know this, Kevin.

You can try to go big with him. You can try to go small with him. No answers. That's the problem. So what you want to do is make sure your guys stay out of foul trouble. And so I don't know. I do think that, you know, Porzingis' length could be useful for sure. But, yeah, Tillman is, look, he is what he is, which is an able-bodied role player.

And I think he is certainly one of those guys that can take turns. You know he's going to lay it all out on the line, and it is not going to be, for lack of effort. He's going to make somebody work. He's going to make somebody work. he's not going to get blown past. He's not going to be a statue. He's going to make somebody work. And so I think, yeah, if you've got that at your disposal,

he's somebody you could try out there. But the idea that anybody that you're expecting like, oh, look, there ain't no such thing as the Yonkid stopper. That guy, do you want to go look for him, you better go try to find somebody from the NFL Combine, like that offensive lineman from Georgia? Did you see that clip by the, oh, my God. There's some offensive live in from Georgia.

You got to find the clip. Amarius Mims or something. Anyway, he's running the 40 the other night and Daniel Jeremiah's like, he looks like an Avenger. And there's this clip going around of him standing amongst reporters. And it looks like a superhero. I got it open.

That's who I would, okay, so Mims, that's who I would go and get if you want the Yonkid stopper. 6, 7 and 3 quarters, 340 pounds. I'm watching this 40 time. Right now it's on the screen. he's about to take off. Yeah. And Daniel Jeremiah says he looks like an Avenger.

He ran like a five flat 40. Wow. That's the kind of guy. That's a guy you need. He's got some speed for a big guy. Yeah. That's the Yokit stopper. Unfortunately, he's in the NFL.

At 340 pounds? He's fast. You know, they're saying he's going to go in the first round. He's only started eight games. Wow. in college. He has a seven-foot-something wingspan. That's a superhuman being.

It's not even real. I mean, offensive linemen are some of the best athletes in sports. That's the truth. It really are. You see that guy? Anyways, look, if you're expecting Tillman to go out there and stop Yokic, that's not happening. If you expect him to go make Yokic work, that is happening. Yes.

And that's the intriguing thing. for Boston. I remember the conversation with the cell picks in the beginning of the season. Is their depth good enough? We know they have a top six, but is their depth good enough behind it? That was the debate. And I remember, you and I talked about this. I was like, well, they have options who could manifest. You have Sam Houser as a shooter. You have Peyton Pritchard as a spark plug guard. Now you have Xavier Tillman as a tough physical backup. You have Cornette who brings size. You have FEMA Highloot who can provide shooting.

Granted, he's not, he's not one of those guys. The point is, O'Shea Brissette, you have options as a physical wing. And I think with Boston, you've seen that manifest with them this year. The amount of different guys that Missoula can turn to, Brad Stevens has done a hell of a job just completely building out this roster top the bottom. The top six is arguably best in all of basketball, compete with Denver. But after that, the seven, eight, nine, ten guys, they have

seven or eight who can fit into those three slots. And I think that's the fascinating thing that I'm looking forward to in the Thursday night game against Denver. What does Missoula decide to do behind Porzingis and Horford in the big man rotation when it comes to trying to slow down Yokic? Well, and on the other side, you've got to imagine Michael Malone is sending an incredible thank you to text to Steve Kerr saying, hey, thanks for trying out the don't guard Jalen Brown strategy so I know not to use that.

What was that? What the effort are they doing? What was that? They're treating him like, did you see that clip the other night? Poor Josh Giddy was standing up at the top of the key and nobody was within 30 yards of him. Yeah, treating him like Giddy or Ben Simmons. This guy's all NBA.

I know. Absurd. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it at all. And I think like Golden State's mindset was you have to pick. your poison. Jalen Brown this season is a 34.7% shooter on catch-and-shoot 3. So you're like, yeah, yeah, well, leave him open.

But, I mean, leave them that open, that open, like wide open, not just open, but wide open. It's ridiculous. He called it disrespectful. It's ridiculous. It's disrespectful, Barry. It really is ridiculous. Who do you think I am?

That's crazy. I'm glad they got beat by 50 doing that. Like, you deserve to lose by 50 if you're not going to guard Jaila Brown. It's just stupid. It really is dumb. It was a really dumb idea. How did anybody think that that's a reasonable idea?

It's such a bad idea. The worst idea. Maybe the worst. Thunderlakers. So somebody even sent me the clip this morning from last week's pod. And I said, I said, I said,

It's a nightmare if you're the thunder and you draw the Lakers. Too many grown men, too much size. You'll never get a call to save your life. Like, this is exactly what Memphis went through when they drew L.A. in the first round last year. Just not the matchup you want. And then you watch them play it out last night, and the Lakers have dominated them.

You know, they've won three so far this year against them. And like we were talking about how so much of this is dependent on matchups, the Lakers are six and two against the clippers and the thunder and have looked unbelievable against them. And those are, as you said, you know, the Zubot thing, the smaller teams. This is smaller teams, right? Yeah. The big teams, Nuggets Wolves, they're, oh, and five.

against. Right? So if you're the Lakers, we kind of know, like when we talk about the matchups, like their advantage is that they're not going to get outrun.

They're going to be able to slow down the game, use their veteran grown man stuff, and turn it into a rock fight sometimes, make enough shots, get to the free throw line, and play volleyball on the boards

against you. But, if you've got the requisite size against them, it can really neutralize them. And so there's part of me just watching that play out last night where as someone who would like to see new blood move on in the playoffs, for the thunder's sake, I hope they avoid them. And I know you said last week, I would not pick the Lakers against them. I'm going to imagine it's changed now. It's changed now.

That's three times we've seen them. play. Yeah, three and one, three and one against OKC this season. And I think watching the game in person last night, the size advantage is striking across the board, not just 80 against Chet, but like, Rui for that matter. LeBron, when he's being defended by Lou Dore, just across the board, how big the Lakers look, how long the Lakers are with their ability to get to the basket. Like, it doesn't even, you know, for them, like last night,

they're outreedbound them 55 to 38. They are just inhaling boards throughout the entire game. Oklahoma City just felt tiny. No, it really mirrors Memphis last year, Kevin. I lived there. It's John Morant and Desmond Bain are now Shagalajus Alexander and Jalen Williams and Chad Holmgren is Jaron Jackson. And it's not big enough.

You know what I mean? Like, those teams need to win by able to, like, turning you over, getting up and down the court, getting out pacing space. I don't want to play some kind of frigging 98-94 game. That's not when you're going to be at your best. And the Lakers are going to be able to control the game against somebody like that. Whereas Denver and Minnesota, they can play that slug fest, messy, not high percentage offense game, and just kind of turn it into rock fight.

and they're fine with that. I think that the smaller you are, the less you want to play half-court basketball, and that has been the trick for the clippers and for the Thunder and why they have been so unsuccessful versus the Lakers and on the flip side, why Denver and Minnesota are just fine. Because Minnesota is huge,

and Denver's big as well. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, for the Lakers, it's going to be very much matchup dependent. And same on the flip side with Oklahoma City at the top. They'll finish in the top three. It's just a matter of will it be one, two, or three. I won't play the Warriors if I'm OKC. Yeah, I think that's what I...

Of those ones that are down there at the bottom, obviously, if you could get Phoenix, you'd love to have that. But of the ones that we think are probably going to be there when it's all said and done, if I'm a Thunder fan, I'd want to get the Warriors. You know, what I'm looking forward to seeing over the course of the rest of the season with OKC is, you know, you mentioned Josh Giddy the other night, how he's just getting helped off of not even getting defended by Phoenix Beyond the Ark, right? Well, you have Gordon Hayward now, who in seven games with OKC is averaging 14.6 minutes per game, a career low for him ever since he was a rookie with the jazz. And he stinks. He cannot find a rhythm.

He is averaging 2.4 points in those 14.6 minutes. He is shooting 0% from 3, 25% from the field. It's Isaiah Joe, Kev. He's been terrible. That too's got to be playing. But I bring all this up to say that I wonder if at some point you see Mark Dagnall give Hayward 25 minutes, 30 minutes over an extended stretch like he got with Charlotte when he was shooting 36% of 3, averaging 15 points per game.

I wonder if at some point you do see Hayward get extended minutes just to see what you can get out of him. But so far, he just looks absolutely terrible. It looks like he's just taking minutes from Isaiah Joe, Aaron Wiggins, Kasson Wallace, like Kenrich Williams, like guys who are outperforming him. Hayward looks completely washed up. I just wonder if Dagnall will get minutes to him. But ultimately, like, Sam Presti acquiring Hayward and not doing a whole lot else around the deadline. You get Bionbo, Muscala.

Well, I mean, that was, from what I gather, that was a salary thing. Yes, it was a salary thing. But clearly, OKC is rolling with what they got, that they didn't want to go out and get an Andre Drummond, something like that. Because they didn't think that guy was going to move the needle enough to make a difference. I think OKC clearly wants to see what they got. with their young guys and then make their move this summer or next season. That seems to be the priority. They have looked at it because if you heard the Presti things,

even going into the season, it was like, this is in its infancy. Yes. We don't know what we are. And you've got to take some lumps, like we said. We said that's at the very beginning. These teams all usually get to the playoffs and collect some scars before it's time for them to win big.

You know what's amazing for like one of my takeaways from last. night. So I'm, you know, in like the tunnels after the game, you know, where the media are, like waiting for players and all that. I was there for the Spurs game. I saw Victor Wenban Yama up close. And then last night, Chet Holmgren saw him up close. Obviously, everybody sees those two guys on the court. Wembe makes everybody look small. He blocks Chet at the end of the game, he has that moment. But seeing them each in person in consecutive weeks, it is amazing how much smaller Chet is. Like in terms of the width of the shoulders, how much bigger Wembe is, height.

Like, it is striking to see them in person, just how small Chet is. And it just makes me think about big picture for Oklahoma City. I've said this a while, adding a big, a true five. I think that needs to be a priority for Oklahoma City, especially with the league, the place that it is now, with Victor coming along, yoke it to the level he is, and Bede an MVP caliber player, the bucks as big as they are with Yanis. I think Chet can be looked at as kind of that Swiss Army knife player in your front court

where if you pair him with a true five, he can play as your four, spacing, rolling, defending on the perimeter, but he can also be your five in certain matchups. I just think having that guy, like we talked about Boston and all the different bigs they have, all the combinations that Missoula can throw out, I'd like to see Daggues. and I'll have that versatility at some point in his front court by allowing Chek to play different roles. So Presti, to me, that should be the priority this summer. How can we find a big, whether it's through the draft, somebody like Donovan Klingen,

take a shot at Zach Edie or whether it's through trade, finding a five with size and beef and strength, allowing check to play different roles? I'll tell you this, man, there's nothing new under the sun. I just talked about how, oh, my God, this team's going to have this amazing season and may draw the friggin Lakers, and I said, Shea and Jalen and Chet are like Morant, Bain, and Jackson, and the same exact thing was true of Jackson. It's Stephen Adams. Yeah.

It's that guy, right? Like, there's somebody, and then you're going to get the best out of Chet. And whether that's a beefy four that can also, you know, switch and play, or just somebody that's got a lot of size because check can block a lot of shots as well. And if you find somebody to play alongside him, but they are, it's funny you say that, I saw a picture that was going around of Wemby standing next to Anthony Davis. And I think that's probably the best example of what you're saying. If you see Wemby stand next to Davis, it's shocking.

Yeah. And yet if you saw Chet standing next to Davis, Davis looks like a grown man. Yes. Like an adult, and Chet looks like a guy that's in the first time running through. Has it filled out yet, you know? But the Wembe, the Wembe standing next to Davis at the free throw line, that video or that picture that was going around, I was like, oh, my gosh. How do you make Anthony Davis look small?

Did you see last week, through the ringer, I did my top 50. I posted it on social media at the end of the week. my top 50. I had Wemby 15th. Too high, too low, just right. What do you think? Victor, 15th best player in the NBA right now. Too high, too low, or just right? I remember we talked about this with Zion years ago. And I said, Kevin, if I view it through, if we do the thought experiment where I'm lining everyone up against the wall and we're picking teams, me and you, I do not think we get to 15. And maybe that's different than just judging

is this guy having a better season than this guy. But if you put everybody's feet to the fire, and you said, all right, we're going to fill out rosters, we're going to pick teams. You got him, I got him. You got him, I got him. I do not think you get to 15 before one of us selects Wemby. now we're very high on him for sure but i don't i think that would be true of most people honestly

are you really i mean can you imagine that you've already selected 14 guys and that guy i mean if you if you really did that thought experiment and lined them all up on a wall he goes way higher because then you're like okay at one point am i just stupid because this guy is a foot taller than everybody A foot taller than everybody else. But so, I mean, I guess without writing out my, you know, 14 ahead of him, that, that would be my comment. I don't think that we get to, I don't think that anybody gets to 15 before he is selected. I found from like skimming through replies, more people said it was too premature.

I think they're late. I think it's possible that 15 is too low. That was actually being conservative putting in 15. The guy's almost got 200 blocks. I know. He plays for a rat team. Do you think he is the defensive player of the year over Gobert and AD? I mean, if we're doing all the counting stats,

and I think Anthony Simons probably took Gobert's award away last night by cracking on his head. I'm just kidding. No, they'll give it to go. All you media nerds love Gobert, like he's your son. I don't know. I'm heavily weighing, Wembe. I'm seriously considering. This is a French battle from the heavens.

I'm considering. I mean, like, Stat Mews put out a stat this morning. It's hard to be defensive player of the year on a horrendous team. I know, and that's the tough part. Like, they're the worst team in the West. However, if you look at stat Mews put out this number this morning, Gobert this season, 35 steals, 128 blocks. When he's on the floor, the wolves have a 104 defensive rating, which is amazing, incredible.

Wembe, 72 steals, 186 blocks, and when he's on the floor, the spurs have a 107.4 defensive rating. So their defensive rating is good with Victor Wenbanyama on the floor. It's been actually amazing ever since he moved to center midway through the season. So I think with Victor versus Gobert, it's really a vote of philosophies. Like with Gobert, Gobert anchoring the best defense in basketball from opening tip of the season to the end versus winning. I'm best player best defense. I think that's, you know. Because defense is about five, not one.

Because otherwise. It's on an individual stat. Because I don't view it like I do, like say, you know, pitcher. wins, but I do feel in some ways we'd be going full baseball to give a guy on the worst team defensive player of the year. Yeah. You remember really like all the, I don't know if you're too young, but the Felix Hernandez, you know, pitching for the mayor.

It doesn't matter. He's not responsible for team wins. This guy is the best pitcher. I get a date. Jacob de Grom, same way. I get all of that. How about the back? I think it was 04.

I used to argue about Randy Johnson should have won the Sy Young over Roger Clemens. Roger Clemens had this insane, like, 20 and 2 record. Randy Johnson was like 10 and 12 or something like that. But the Diamondbacks sucked.

They were horrible. But Randy Johnson was better in every single statistical category across the board besides wins. And I thought Randy Johnson should have won Tsai Young. He didn't. Roger Clemens did.

And because of the, wins the record. I tell you this, it would be a massive sea change if you gave the defensive player of the year to a team that is very well

might be the worst. Yeah, I know, I know, it really would be, but that's why you need to look at when the players on the floor.

But that's the tough part. Like Rudy O'Bare right now, if you look at the Fandul odds, he is minus 750, heavy, heavy, he's going to win him. But then Wembe, plus 900.

Nah. What if the spurs continue to close the season really well? Like competitive and if they continue shining with Victor on the floor? I still think

we talk about voter fatigue all the time. I know. Voters sometimes look for the new shining new thing. I wonder if by early April,

mid April, when ballots are being cast that could be more of a conversation. Just, you know, just some something on my mind, like when it comes to predicting who will win the award. And I'm considering,

I consider up until the day I place my boat. Like, this is nothing new for me. I do this every single year. I'm still considering Anthony Davis, bam out of bio. These guys are still like on my mind. But I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. I think Victor, the fact he's even in it right now is truly remarkable. And he should be on an all defensive team. That's for sure. maybe not to DPOI, but certainly in all defensive teams. A couple other things that I do want to mention. Miami and Orlando were worth mentioning just because they're both eight and two over the last 10 games.

And the heat have been even better than, well, actually, Orlando's been even better than that. They've won 11 to 14. And they've already surpassed their win total from last year. And it climbed up to, you know, sixth to where they wouldn't even have to play their way in and we want new blood and they and Indiana and some of these others are ones that we have mentioned in the past but they've already surpassed last year's win total and and that's with Franz not being able to make a three to save his life he's like shooting

less than 20% over the last eight games but this it's what's kind of weird is we've talked about how man they just need a couple of guys that can space the floor and knock down shots and you know this crazy great record, this 11 and 3 over their last 14, lines up almost perfectly with frigging Gary Harris coming back and becoming a starter, replacing Fultz. Gary Harris is shooting like almost 50% from three. And it's like sometimes just having somebody, we talked about how great Franz is, how great Paulo is,

how they've got like this size and they've got some things that can really give you problems. Just have somebody to space the thing out so the guys have some way to operate or somebody to kick out to. And who would have guessed that the night in Shining Harbor is in the form of Gary Harris? It's crazy that sometimes just a tweak like that, just having a guy that can stand out there. And if you throw it to him, can knock the shot down, there's so many open ones available, and yet they haven't had anybody that can make them. And Paulo is like almost impossible to guard just heads up.

You know, you're going to have to want to dedicate somebody else or else who can bully ball you. But I like the whole stretch it out Gary Harris, and more importantly to what it tells us about this year and whether or not they could be dangerous to a good team is I think it becomes even more instructive of this offseason and going forward. Bro, they just need a couple guys that can shoot.

That's it. And then they're going to be cooking with grease. For sure. I mean, Gary Harris is the indicator of what things could look like. Yes. Harris looks like, you know, he is one of the better role players, more underrated role players in the league because of his knockdown shooting, good decision-making, solid defense.

I love Gary Harris. And I think for this team, you look at, you know, Franz as an 80% plus guy from the line, you hope at some point the three-point shot becomes consistent. But then Paolo Ben-Caro this year, his numbers from the perimeter are so way up from last season. As a rookie, he was 40% from mid-range, 26% from three off the dribble,

32% on catch-and-shoot threes. This season, 45% on mid-range pull-ups, up from 40%, 36% on pull-up threes up from 26%, 36% on kitchen shoot 3s up from 32%. So across the board, catch and pull-ups, his perimeter numbers are up now. You're seeing the way he is downhill,

getting to the basket, the spin moves, the crossovers, the combination of size and fluidity and the playmaking feel as well in there. Sometimes he looks like LeBron. It's just the truth. Sometimes he looks like LeBron. And I think for the magic here,

They're building something that could be very special. It's just about finding those right, supporting pieces through trade, through draft. And, you know, I mean, we'll see this year. They have a pick that's going to be in like the 18 to 22 range. I've said for, you know, quite a while this draft cycle, this is not a great draft for stars, but it is a good draft for role players. And for Orlando this year, I think you were going to be in a position to, get a role player who fits next to Bancaro, who fits next to Franz Wagner,

who fits next to all these quality core pieces you have and helps enhance that. So I'm feeling good if I'm a magic fan right now, and maybe they went around. Who knows? Well, and the other thing is they had those two first-round picks that they didn't take a guy, like Howard, Jed Howard doesn't play, and Anthony Black's not a shooter. But maybe next year, Jet Howard will play. Maybe Jet Howard will be one of those guys. Like he's had some big games in the G league this year.

But Anthony Black's not the best fit, like the best, you know, archetype to have, you know, because he's a ball in their hands kind of guy to get the best out of him. And I love Anthony Black. He is shooting 38% from three on a low volume. He's not a knockdown shooter, though, to your point. Nobody is respecting that. Yes, absolutely. And I think with Black, it's a type of thing where I agree with you.

Like, that's why I was like a bit iffy on the pick. But he is the type of guy that with his handling, he can't allow you to play like five guys who are all six, seven and taller. Oh, I saw it in person earlier this year. And I was like, my God, this is like, this is, this is, it got to be that, uh, Whitman's dream. Oh, I know.

Yeah. You know, they still, if they only had mobamba still. I know. What a shame. Yeah. What a shame indeed. They should, they should, how did they not sign Poku off the, uh, the, uh, the scrap heap?

Orlando is asleep at the wheel. All right. Also, the other team I mentioned was Miami. Miami 8 and 2 in their last 10. They still don't have a lineup that has played 80 minutes together. Isn't that crazy? They have Yovic starting right now. They never have their guys.

Never. And the other teams, like Memphis, Charlotte, and then Dallas was one of those. Remember a couple weeks ago I said, like none of these teams have lineups that have played 100 minutes. And so it was something that we said at that time, like keep an eye on Dallas, who have really just vomited all over themselves after we got on their nuts.

It's so annoying. Making us look so bad. I mean, God damn, man. You lose three out of four as soon as we... So we're done saying awesome stuff about you and that we believe in you because you just threw eggs in our head as soon as we did. Miami, on the other hand,

eight and two, and they got the second best defense and the third best record since the end of January. So this is a watch out. They still haven't had their guys. They've had Butler suspended, and their defense has been great. The record's been great. And, you know, with the other team's faltering, you know, you got Janus with the, oh, no, is his Achilles okay? You got Donovan Mitchell just got a damn injection in his knee. and they had been faltering as of late anyways,

it's like, geez, Miami might be able to climb all the way up to where their freaking home court advantage if they keep this going. It's very possible. Seriously. They are literally only a game and a half back from the Knicks right now. And then that's a freaking nightmare if you're the Celtics. If they're the four or five slot, right? And then they get them in the second round.

Because at the moment, you don't see them until. the conference finals. Right. Yes. If you're the, if you're Boston, you do not want to see them until the end.

Mm-hmm. We've been through this before. You want them as the final boss of boss of the East. Yes. Or maybe you avoid them entirely. Because it's going to be crazy. The first time they ever have their full roster

is going to be when the playoffs start. Or like the last 10 games of the year. That's so annoying. It has been interesting to see them starting Yovich. Hakez is still playing more minutes off the bench, but Yovich is providing good shooting, good size,

good feel, playmaking. I don't think the defense is going to be enough for him to be a heavy minutes guy in the playoffs, but it's cool to see them thriving with Yoavich starting, getting consistent minutes. Just as a means of experimenting while you're winning, it's interesting to me.

And you also, you never know with them, Kev. We get to the point. playoffs and we end up coming on this damn show talking about Duncan Robinson. We get to the playoffs. We come on this damn show talking about Caleb Martin. We come. It's like, it's all Gabe Vincent. It's always somebody.

And so if you told me, Kevin Love, you know, had the, you know, those full court baseball passes in big games. And he's had some starts recently. It's like, you never know with them who, like, and you, know, they, he can very well look out at the court and be like, you know what? You know who'd be super useful in this situation? Yovich, hey, Yovich, you're going to play 25 minutes tonight. And it's like, what? Who's all this coming? They just make sure that everybody's gotten minutes. And then when they end up having everybody at their disposal, it's always the guy that you don't

pay attention to that hurts you. That's why they're, that's why they've been so sustainably great. you know but geez with the way this is kind of played out with the injury stuff they're going to get healthy while everybody else is getting hurt and then there we are you know still i mean how can you be that how can we be three-fourths of the way through the season and they don't have one lineups that's played 80 friggin minutes together it's crazy incredible incredible crazy it really is man it's going to be a fun week i can't Can't wait. By the time we record on Thursday. Hey, hey, one more thing.

We didn't talk about the Kings blowing a 22-point lead of the Bulls last night. The White dropping over 30 points again. Yeah, Kobe White. That was a career night for Kobe White. Incredible. Did you see the Carolina on Carolina crime that took place when he got ISOed at the top on Harrison Barnes? Two crossovers drove all the way to the basket and then just cracked on his head. That was terrible. Dude, Kobe White's handle

has come so far as a creator. He's amazing. And then the Kings, the King's side of that blown lead. It all started late third quarter with the bench units in. But then in that fourth quarter, you got, I don't know why Mike Brown keeps going to Trey Liles of the five lineups.

They've been bad this season. They have a minus seven net rating with Trey Liles at the five throughout the entire season. And then in the fourth quarter, you go to it, DeRosen, getting to the rim play after play after play. And then with Sabonis, you stretch him out with Vooch. He's outside the paint.

You're getting to the rim over and over again. Then Sabonis falls out. And you go back to Trey Liles over the final two, three minutes of the game. And again, play after play after play, the bulls just getting into the paint for shots at the rim or drawn falls. It's an issue for the Kings. And there's no solution on the roster for them. and we talk about how tight the standings are right now.

The Kings at the moment are the seven. They're a game and a half back from the five, but they're only two games up on the 10. The Kings feel like a team that are sliding to me. Throughout the year, they have proven that they can't hold leads. They have some weak rotations. Mike Brown doesn't have a lot of solutions. The magic's gone from the Kings right now.

And very, though, their record still is good against the good teams. It's crazy. I just feel like they've gotten into this malaise, and then as soon as we start doubting them, they play to their level of competition, which is a dangerous thing to do, right? You want a team that just beats everybody up. But the record against the best teams is actually pretty good.

The problem is, as we chronicled last week, if you have a guy hurt, they lose, and if you, you know, don't have their full attention, they lose. They act like a team that has won. something. Yeah. They play like a team that's one.

That's true. They do. Yeah. You see that with Fox as well. Yeah. Yes. All right. Well, by time we record on Thursday night, you, I, there, by the way, your grudge with

the whole King's fan base is a real one. I mean, I'm wrapping up the show and you say, hey, hold on. Stop this. I didn't get the shit on the Kings. I mean, that is, I tell you, you are committed. I also want to, I also want to praise. Kobe White. He deserved a mention. He deserved a mention. No, you said,

Oh, you said, hold on now. We're not ended this show until I get the shit on Sacramento. And that's, look, I respect it. De Rosa had 33 on 10 of 12 from the field. How could you know I mention that? DeRosa was outstanding. You're tired of that subpoena stuff.

You drug me down. Damn Deeran Fox's wife is tweeting about what a jerk face I am. And I've been a Kings guy. You've drug me in the mud. Anyways. I mean, it's going to be tough when the Kings don't even make the playoffs. Hold on, Kev.

Just hold on. You'd pick them, you'd pick them to make the playoffs today. Today, you're picking the Kings to make the playoffs out of that this is the playing right now. I know there's 10 teams in the winning. Kings, Mavs, Lakers, Warriors. I would trust them more than Phoenix. Yeah, Phoenix is shaking. Phoenix is a bad way.

They lost Booker. Do you know Phoenix is about to have 14 of their next 21 games versus top eight teams? Unreal. They are effed. I think Phoenix will be in the play in. Yes. It's just hard to know who's going to move up to five and six. Maybe New Orleans, it's the easy answer.

They keep the spot. And then, like, I don't know, the Lakers are Mavs, one of those two, move up to six. Lakers would be my guess. Yeah. I'm mad at the Mavs right now after we praise that. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Through it.

Hags on us. All right. By the time we record on Thursday night, we'll have just watched one of the best regular season games at the year. Hopefully, Denver and Boston matching up. And so we will recabee on Thursday night. Thanks to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. And Kevin, I will talk to you Thursday night.

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