The Mismatch - Damian Lillard Finally Traded, Set to Join Giannis and the Bucks

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

It finally happened ... Damian Lillard has been traded and will join Giannis on the Bucks after a three-team trade sent Dame to Milwaukee; Jrue Holiday, Deandre Ayton, and picks to Portland; and Jusuf Nurkic and more players to Phoenix. Verno and KOC react to the trade and discuss what it means for all the teams involved. Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez and Steve Ahlman Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Learn more about the albums you love with Dissect, a music analysis podcast hosted by me, Cole Kushna, a lifelong musician. Each season of Dissect dives deep into one album, examining the music, lyrics, and meaning of one song per episode. We've covered albums by Kendrick Lamar, Tyler the creator, Frank Ocean, just to name a few, and our brand new season just launched all about Radiohead's 2007 masterpiece in rainbows. Listen to Dissect on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast, because a great art deserves more than a swipe. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and on a special edition of the mismatch today on this Thursday, I'm joined by Kevin O'Connor from the ringer.com, aka Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Bomberton, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connorian, Kevin O'Brien, emergency podcast. Now, I'm actually glad that we are doing this 24 hours after the trade.

that included Damien Lillard was announced because anytime you do something emergency, there is always very little time to be able to collect all of your thoughts and think about things. But now 24 hours later, I think we got a pretty good grasp on everything that took place, had time to think about it, and time to think about what is next. So, as of yesterday, Damian Lillard ended up with the Milwaukee Bucks. DeAndre Aiton is now a Portland Trailblazer, and the son's got Yusuf Nurkich and some more depth for their team. We will go through them kind of one by one. First things first, apologize to me.

I'm not apologized. What? Drew Holliday, the day before the trade, came out in an article saying, I'm not retiring. That was the key of what I said to you on Monday night's episode where I said, Drew does that value you said he's going to retire in two years after this contract is up? The next day, an article dropped saying, I'm not going to retire. I want to be a buck for life. I was just talking through my feelings with two close friends, but I'm going to keep playing NBA basketball.

So that was a big thing that changed. That raises his value for teams around the league. It makes him an asset worth investing in for the years to come. So I was wrong about the buck's value on Monday, but that was a game changer on Tuesday and assessing what the value of a buck's offer could be. So the only reason that I brought up the bucks in the first place is because I thought that there's just so much nervousness regarding the honest thing. And it's like, you know, his tenure changed over the course of the last couple of years.

That it originally was, I want to be a buck for life. You know, I see what Dirk's done. I see what Tim Duncan's done. That's how I fancy myself. You know, he's had his comments on super teams and whatever else. And then it's kind of changed. And I think this is what happens also after you become a made man and win a ring to, look, I want to be in the best situation to win,

start to put a little bit of pressure on bucks management. And we know that there's a timeline over the course of the next couple of years that Janus is going to have to make a decision on whether, he is going to sign there long term or not. And so I thought that my best friend John Horst would have to do something. Let me just a quick aside. What an off-season for him. For anybody that hears me say that, I realize we have garnered a lot of new listeners over the years.

So the joke on my best friend John Horst is that years ago, and this is many years ago now, I was in Charlotte at the All-Star game. My beloved friend, Sunny Baccaro, was there with his wife, Pam, and invited me to come downstairs at this hotel we were staying at. And I met them downstairs. We're all hanging out. And, you know, Sonny is one of those basketball characters that everybody comes up and, like, kisses the ring.

So there's all kinds of people that are coming by. I meet one guy, and he's a part owner for the Sixers, and another guy who worked at Sunny's camps, who's now, you know, assistant general manager for this team and one guy who's this and whatever. So anyways, I'm sitting by this guy. I'm talking to the guy for 20, 30 minutes, whatever. We're just kind of hanging out because he's the other semi-young guy there. Most of the people are old.

And finally, after, you know, we've been talking about basketball, I've been talking about all kinds of stuff. And I was like, so what do you do, John? He's like, I'm the general manager for the bucks. And I was like, oh, my God. I had no, and it was the moment that I realized I had absolutely no idea who the general manager for the bucks was. Now, in my defense, I think what I met him, he was like 35 or 36 years old. And if you think I look young, John Horst really looked young.

And they had had like this big ownership fight and had interviewed all kinds of GMs, but then landed on John. And so anyways, I didn't know who the guy was. And so now we have jokes for years that the guy is my best friend. This is a huge deal for my best friend John Horst, though, because now he's got another star to go along with Janus. It's kind of in the fold. I obviously love this for the bucks. What do you think? A no-brainer for Milwaukee.

Upgrading from Drew Holliday, Damien Lillard. Yes, you get, you know, slightly worse. I mean, you get worse on your permanent defense. Drew Holliday is one of the best in the world of defending at the point of attack. so he can defend wings, but what you gain offensively, Drew Holiday, as unbelievable as he is

on the defensive end, on offense, like, let's just be honest. He put up Eric Bletsso-level efficiency, and Bucks fans know that all too well with Eric Bledso in the playoffs. And Drew Holiday has not been a high-level playoff performer,

and now you're going to Damien Lillard, who has never played with anybody anywhere as great as Janus, who has, like, I think, Besides C.J. McCallum, like Chris Middleton, the different type of player that he can share the back court with, there is so much balance for Damian Lillard that now, you know, in the same way, Nicola Yokic and Jamal Mari are an unstoppable two-man game in the West, now in the east, having Damian Lillard and Yannas together, that two-man attack with their supporting cast,

Brooke Lopez, as somebody who could be on the interior or spacing from three, Chris Middleton as another scorer and playmaker on that team. That offense, plug and play whoever you want, whether it's Crowder or Conantin or go jumbo with Bobby Portis, they can play so many different ways and so many different

combinations that that two-man game, the source of their offense, the core of it, Giannis and Dame together, I'm not sure who's going to end up having an answer for it. You know, it's interesting that you mentioned Jay Crowder because I was just thinking about that the other day. When you

and I had spoken about the different changing coaches and, you know, what nurse is going to be doing at Philly. And we talk about Adrian Griffin. And it's like, hey, Boon-Nos are for all his fault. A guy won a boatload of games. And it's a huge hire. To have a guy that zero and zero take over a team that's got championship dreams, it's certainly something to monitor. And I thought about Crowder and I wondered like, and the fact that they resigned him in the offseason, like I wondered if that was a fight. that feels like one of those management coach, like things that probably could have very easily blown up because the management goes, they gave like a ton of second round picks. You remember all the stuff they gave that traded for him? And then he was just MIA completely, like not even played.

And that's one of those where it's like, I'm sure management would want return on investment and did not look stupid for making the deal. And on the other hand, Booneholtzer just wasn't going to play the guy. And so I would imagine that he will be a contributor this year for that team and certainly add some toughness on the wing. They've got to be the favorite, like prohibitive to me in the Eastern Conference, right? With all the questions regarding the other teams. And I think that kind of interestingly enough, wherever Drew Holiday lands, if he lands in the east, that that's the other thing that could really swing this right if holiday were to end up in

Boston or holiday would end up in Philly now we look at them much different and it's really become an arms race so depending on where holiday ends up it feels like it'll be the bucks and then wherever he ends up if it's an eastern team probably slot them in second right yeah i think the bucks are the favorites i had the Celtics of the favorites previously but i'll give the bucks the edge right now. If Boston were to get Drew Holiday, that definitely closes the gap or even evens it, depending on what they could,

depending on what they would give up for him. Maybe Malcolm Brogden, Robert Williams, Peyton Pritchard, future picks, some number of future picks, first and seconds. It's going to be interesting to see how that Drew Holiday stuff shakes out because will it be a contending team like Boston, like Philly, these teams we've heard mentioned, will it be kind of an under-the-radar team that's on the ride,

like the magic I mentioned them the other day on social media. Zach Lowe said on his podcast, the Pacers, like could it be a team in the West that goes after him as well, it gets him from Portland. There's different teams that could exceed an offer. And then there's also Miami, right? Like, Miami, like, it sucks.

Like, it's brutal, the fact that they are going after Dame for months. They bypass the chance to get to go get Bradley Beale. They're waiting on Dame. It ends up not happening. Not only does it not happen, he goes to a conference rival in the box as a teammate of Yannis, another guy that you're hoping to pursue in a couple of years. So maybe you go out and get Drew Holiday

and offer the deal that you did for Dame, three first-round draft picks, Tyler Hero, Nicolayovic, maybe you go that far. But even then, the Blazers didn't like the heat future first-round draft picks. They didn't want Tyler Hero. They didn't love the potential returns for Heavich. compared to what they think they can get for Drew Holiday. They didn't love Yovich.

So would that even be the best offer for Drew Holiday? I guess we'll find out in the days to come. We don't know yet. But there's going to be a lot of teams that want him, especially now that he's, he has outright said, I'm not retiring in two years. I was just talking through my feelings. So I always love the reporting right after a trade goes down,

because then we find out, like, all kinds of information that we were not privy to before. One of the things is Winhor said something, the effect of the heat had, like the heat and the Trailblazers were not engaged for months. I think he said like 11 weeks or it was something crazy. Like that it was just

known, those teams weren't even talking to each other. And it's like what happened? And I do wonder if it was just. Someone called it the Cold War to me, like an NBA Cold War where they just had a stare down and. Yeah, maybe just the idea that they weren't even

speaking on this stuff. And I do wonder if part of it was super pissed off about the whole, you know, the public pressure thing of, hey, Aaron Goodwin's gone out there and the NBA obviously reprimanded them and said, my guy wants to go here and anybody that trades for him is going to trade for an unhappy player. And so they tried to like force their way to Miami. And on the other hand, when the NBA stepped in, I had the wonder, once I had heard they had not spoken for a long time. time, kind of a sagging without sagging, you wonder if because the NBA reprimanded them, find them, whatever, stepped in and said, like, hey, we can't have this happen. Like, even if, and again, we know that they were probably not interested, but if the NBA says,

like, if you're tired of this, like, if we're tired of this as a league, like guys saying, not only do I want to be out of here, that's where I want to go. So make that happen. Like if you're tired of players having that level of power while they are under long contracts, then how about you help the league and not give in to that, right? I would not be surprised if that was at least a recommendation. because to me it makes no sense why they wouldn't engage at all

from either side. If you really coveted him and you knew that's where he wanted to be, you would certainly think that you guys were talking through it and maybe trying to get a third team involved or whatever. Well, they were. They were trying to get third teams involved. There's just nothing from what,

you know, it seems all the reporting is from what I've heard that they feel like was super valuable to get for Tyler Hero. Whereas for Drew Holiday, you could list a whole bunch of teams that would want Drew Holiday. You could list probably 10 plus teams with reasons that should trade for Drew Holiday. There's maybe three, four,

five at most that should trade for Tyler Heroes. He's just not as valuable as Drew. There may be more that want Holiday. I mean, he's, A, the contract, and it's not, not there may be, like, there are. Yeah, yeah, it's not long term.

And he can fit anywhere. I mean, he can play on or off, off the ball, and you know he's a championship caliber player, who wouldn't want him? You know? He's a veteran presence. He can change your defense.

I mean, like, he's a complimentary offensive player. Like, he, like, despite having some lower numbers offensively in the postseason, he still had some big games as well. Sure. Like, I think with both Tyler Hero, like, I've criticized him on Monday's show with what he's done in the postseason aside from the bubble. Drew Holiday, I just criticized him today. But at least Drew Holiday is still giving him.

you a lot as a playmaker and as a defender and as a versatile piece and as a veteran leader. There's just like so many other ways that he's impacting the game in a positive way that Tyler Hero doesn't yet. Well, and Drew Holliday had two of the biggest finals plays in history, in recent history, with the steel and obviously the Aleoup. I mean, yeah, oh, that Aleyuk is so cool. He's a let, you know, no wonder he wanted to spend the rest of his life in, you know, career in Milwaukee.

Guys, a legend forever. When you pull that off and you deliver a team a title and you were a major part of it, you're a legend forever. So we love what they did in Milwaukee by getting Damian Lillard. I think that those two together are just going to be devastating, as do you. Let's talk about what Portland got in the deal. Drew Holiday, we don't know what the return is yet. So they're saying that this is going to happen very fast, finding him a landing spot. So we will see.

but the other big part was getting Aiton. We don't know what the rest of the deal is because we don't know what the return for Holiday will be that we know they're going to move off from him and probably get a good return. What do you think about the Aiton piece of it? It's worth the gamble for the Blazers. For the Sun side of things,

just to touch on that real quick. Aiton, you know, a lack of belief in him from Devin Brucker and Kevin Durant, a lack of belief in his motor, motivation, heart, focus. Whereas for Portland, yes, you're getting this guy with all of those concerns that the Phoenix Suns had, but you're also a young team, an up-and-coming team, where there's not that pressure, and you're hoping that you can invest in this guy in that type of circumstances, that type of environment,

and help him grow and help him be a guy who is a valuable, versatile defender and a valuable, you know, screen and roller for Scoot Henderson and and Shaden Sharp and Anthony Simons and maybe he's able to get more chances offensively as a post player. Maybe they invest in him more often as a three-point shooter even though he hasn't done a lot of that. He wants to do more of that. So maybe we'll see Aiton in a more dynamic role that pleases him offensively with the things that he wants and then you give him that and maybe you get more out of him defensively, which Phoenix could not give him that with the amount of potent offensive attackers they have. So for Portland, I think it's worth it.

It's worth the investment. He's an upside player. But at the same time, I understand why the sons decided to dump him. Yeah. And if there is some criticism of him, it's, you know, it doesn't matter that you're immature if you're playing with young players, right? You know, it might be more on their level. And I do think he's kind of a meeker individual. So it's still going to be Scoot's team, right?

Like, you get to go into the future and, like, Scoot is, he's an alpha. He's a, you know, he's a, he's a, he's a. bulldog that would be able to get up in Aiton's face in the same kind of way. And like, I actually think that the pecking order is not going to be weird. And the guy, they'll lose 60 games and he'll go out there and get his 24 and 12 every night.

Like, what's it going to hurt? I do think that, you know, as we flip to the Phoenix side of it, I told you I always like the stories that come out afterwards. Like, this whole, there's, I guess, a couple of reports that he just bailed on game six last year. Like, you just didn't want to play.

And it's like, Okay. Like, that's why I had gotten, like, part of the reason it had gotten so toxic is that he was like a, you know, that he quit on him type of thing. They thought he should have played. Yeah. That he quit. And I get it, right? There's a breach of trust that goes there.

But I got to be honest with you, Kiv. When I saw what Phoenix got in the deal, boy, I mean, I know that the PR is bad on Aiton. I have been, I think, is critical of him and probably less end on him than anybody. But I still don't think his values that low. I feel like they did not get as good a return as I thought they would get by moving Aiton.

Am I crazy here? Like, I just thought you could get more than that for D'Andre Aiton. Even with all his faults. I think it's the same thing as Tyler Hero, though. But the Aiton, thing's just a dump. There's nothing they got in that deal that they couldn't have gotten any other time.

Like, I feel like it was low value. It is low value. It is selling low. For sure. It's definitely selling low. Way low. I just thought I could have gotten something better. It's definitely,

it is selling low, Chris. Here's the way, like, I would say that the sons are thinking about this. That they know Aiton's not the guy. Katie and Booker know Aiton's not the guy. And so there's kind of an admission here that we're not beating Yokic and the Nuggets unless we have a guy who's a tough dude, a bruiser, you know, someone who gets down and dirty like Nerkich. I've never been a Nerkich guy. I'm not a Nerkich guy. He has not been the same guy ever since he had his injuries, like anywhere close.

But he does have that toughness, that grit still, that Aiton does not. So I think the sons are feeling like we play, you know, we have Drew Eubanks, who was the backup to Nurkich last year in Portland, ironically. So you have Nurkich and Eubanks as part of your center rotation. Those guys are innings eaters over the course of the full regular season. They are playing 48 minutes combined. They're maybe spot in other minutes with centers as well, but they're playing with a big, but then come playoff time.

That's when they lean fully into playing small ball. So you get a big, beefy forward like Nassir Little, who's shown flashes in Portland, another body that can enable you to play KD more at the 5, KD at the 4 in certain lineups. I just think you're going to play Phoenix play with a spread-it-out, five-wide, five-out offense, and they couldn't do that with Aiton. They can't do it with Nerkich. They can't do it with Eubanks.

But that's not what they're building for. They're building for having a bunch of guards and wings and forwards alongside Kevin Durant, Devin Booker, and Bradley Beale that allows them to space it out. When the Nuggets are playing big, the sons are going to zag and play with all of their skill position players and just admit there's nothing we can do about Yokic. It doesn't matter who the five is. There's nothing you can do. 80 couldn't stop them.

Aiton couldn't stop them. Nobody could stop them. So, like, let's just go get a bruiser that can play 15 minutes per game. and Nurkich, but then we're playing small, the remaining men. That's what I think they were thinking about here. That's fascinating because then you look at them and you go, all right, this

you think that teams are now, and I buy this, making moves with that in mind, going that is the team that we believe is going to be there, that you're going to have to get past again next year. It's them. It's them also, Chris, but it's also like, well,

if we get to face the Warriors with Draymond at the It's that too. I think it works for all those teams to think about it to that style. But yes, also with Denver, like you, unless you get Jewel and Bede, but even Embed, like, nobody can stop Yokic. So maybe you just go all the way the other direction.

Okay. Likewise, do you think that's going to be the case on the other conference that, because that's how it feels. The Lillard thing swung it so much because you named, you know, two of the other contenders as possible Drew Holiday Homes, whether it's Philly or whether it's Boston

or even possibly Miami, right? That teams are going to look at that and they're going to go, all right, now we know who's going to be there, who we're going to have to get past, and we need somebody that we could throw on Lillard because, you know, you wonder if Boston,

if they're sitting there going, wouldn't be so bad to still have Marcus Smart because we ain't really got anybody to throw on Lillard right now. And the same thing goes with Philadelphia, not really having anybody to throw on Lillard. Like, do you think that that's the, do you think that that is going to even drive the price up more in an arms race for holiday because the value of holiday is so much greater because the bucks have Lillard and you know that's what you're going to have to contend with? It's possible for sure. And that's where like on Monday show, like aside from the retirement. aspect of Drew Holiday, even if he were going to retire in two years, I think I did underrate

the amount of teams that would want Drew Holiday. Even if he's out of the NBA in two years, I underrated how much value Drew Holiday could provide to a bunch of different teams. So I think for Boston or Philly or Miami or whoever else it might be that we touched on earlier, a long list of teams could want True Holiday. I think for those teams, it does make sense to make that investment in him, to have a guy that can at least work damn hard and make things difficult for him because point of attack defense does matter,

especially in the pick and roll, changing the angle that that ball handler needs to go around the screen, wearing them out. So we'll see what ends up happening with Drew Holiday, but I think Portland could get quite a bit for him. Last thing, do you think that this ropes in a, on a hardened deal? Do you think that the holiday thing

has any effect on a Hardin deal that maybe this is a method in which we know holidays moving so maybe this becomes the catalyst for a Hardin deal especially if Philly is involved in this and not necessarily moving

Hardin to say Portland but rather Harden moving elsewhere and that getting Holland you're then you're able to move James Hardin and get the great return that you wanted to get. Is it possible that those

two deals that we think could two guys that could be on the move, that that actually could work in conjunction? Very possible. I think Philadelphia will angle for that. It's just a matter of if Portland wants that and that the Clippers want that, because the Clippers might rather go straight for Drew Holiday instead of going to get James Hardin.

I mean, they got to get rid of him in Philly. Come on. They got to find something to do with Hardin before Media Day. The guys partied last night with Daryl Morey as a liar. everywhere. That shit was so funny. I know. Have you ever been to a party like that? They got a party.

Darryl Morin, I would love to go to, look, I like Darrell, I'd love to go to a party where there's signs of, that say, some GM of an NBA team is a liar. Like, what kind of party is that? Well, there's also the sign that said. Terl Moore. No, there's the, I'm not pulling out sign too.

It's like college game day Right It's like hard parties at college game day You imagine rolling up to a party And you look at a side It says Daryl Borey is a liar Like yep I'm at the right party

Let's get lit Darry is a liar Where's our invite We'll fly out Oh I will 100% go to that party Just for the fun of it Yes. But it might very well tie in. I could see that this, if they could end up in, imagine that the guy that partly his movement started the process,

comes home to play with the last remaining vestige of the process, right? Be something else, man. That was kind of like the first move of it, right? Was moving Drew Holiday. Yeah. And then all these years later, he comes back, the prodigal son. Be crazy. Full circle.

And it's him in an MB. That would be great. I would 100% try to get Drew Holiday. Oh, yeah. If I were Philly, Boston, or any of those teams. Yeah. Miami, especially. Like, Miami, you got to do something.

You got to make a move. Whether it's now or before the deadline, you got to make a move. Brother, they are on Pat Riley's ass. They're like, the guy said he wanted to be here. And you couldn't deliver it. Tough scene. All right, well, man, it has been a fun week. And I'd imagine we're probably going to get a lot more movement.

We may have to end up jumping back on a microphone at some point. But made this season a lot more interesting already. I mean, right in the middle of football and the NBA took over the news cycle yesterday because it was that big of a deal. And this is dragged on forever. But I actually think the outcome makes all the teams a little more fun. 100%. I'm fired up, man.

Media day is going to be fun next week. I mean, some media days have happened already, but most of them on Monday. It's going to be a fun week. head. All right. We wanted to pop on here and make sure we got our opinions out there. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Kevin, I'll talk to you next week. Looking forward to it. Must be 21 plus in president's select states. FanDul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandual.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia.

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