The Mismatch - DeMar the Cheat Code, Embiid Wanted Someone Else, and the Growing Questions in Portland

Episode Date: February 25, 2022

The All-Star break is over as the second half of the NBA season is underway! The Bulls beat the Hawks on Thursday night, with DeMar DeRozan continuing his historic shooting streak (02:05). The guys gush about DeMar's midrange game and how he's elevated himself while also carrying the Bulls. James Harden is scheduled to make his debut as a Sixer on Friday night, but before Harden made his way to Philly, Joel Embiid actually wanted someone else as a teammate (17:06). Don’t look now, but the Celtics are on a roll, losing only twice in the past month. KOC gives big credit to Robert Williams for their turnaround (30:27). However, Verno still doesn't believe the Celtics have enough to make any noise for a deep playoff run (38:58). The guys get into a heated debate about the Blazers' future after it was announced that center Jusuf Nurkic is out with a left foot injury (49:31). Lastly, they discuss the Nuggets' chances in the playoffs once Jamal Murray returns, and KOC’s favorite, Point Booker (01:02:15).  Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer Gambling Show is here to help you place your bets on the biggest sports around the world. Join NFL analyst Warren Sharp on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. Each week, they'll cover everything from spreads, game totals, and parlays to player props, futures, post-game reactions, and more. Check out the Ringer Gambling Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mishmatch. I'm Chris Vernon. And join as he does every Friday from The Ringer.com. is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Blazarian, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Kee and Kevoh.

Boono! How you do? We got basketball back, man. Made it through the All-Star break. We played our game earlier in the week. And now we had actual games that were taking place last night. And probably the biggest story is Demard de Rosen picking up right where he left off. While we have the downtime, there is always conversation about the MVP and what these last 20-something games are going to look like. And there's always somebody that we're not talking about that does wedge their way into the conversation. And it did feel like, given a stage last night where people were paying attention right

after the All-Star break of the first game back, for him to come back. for him to come up clutch when it mattered most, it becomes one of these, here's what DeMar de Rosen did, and here's what DeMorosin has been doing, and it becomes this refresher on, and then immediately it turns to, hey, now, we should be talking about him too

and what he's doing in Chicago. Kevin, he is on a crazy run. Yeah, last night, games, DeMarter Rosen is averaging 37.6 points, 5.4 assists, only 3.1 turnover, shooting 60% from the field, 35% from 3 on 24.4 shot attempts per game. The usage, the efficiency, the scoring volume, all of it. 38 points per game, if I'm averaging up, 38 points per game over nine games, score 30 plus in all nine of them. The thing is, though, is this, Chris. Since he got back from an absence in mid-December,

it's not like he was putting that up low numbers. He had 27 points per game over his previous 23 games. So he was putting up monstrous numbers. It's just now they're giving them five more shots per game than he was having previously. And his efficiency is just off the charts here. And I feel like the bowls right now, we'll see if you can sustain these numbers.

But watching these games, it feels sustainable. and I just, like watching, it's as if Chicago just said, you know what, DeMar, you go get MVP. It doesn't mean he'll get it in the end, but it's as if they just said, we realize you are clearly our best player, and we're going to ride,

we are going to ride you to victories here on the offensive end of the floor. He's been empowered to play in this way, Vernal. That's what it feels like to me. Well, and the other guys on that team deserve credit for that. Oh, 100%. That's what enables it. And he last night became the

seventh player in NBA history with eight straight 35 plus point games. Unbelievable. These are the names, Kev. Will Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, James Hardin. That's the entire list of guys that have done this. seventh player in NBA history with eight straight, 35 point games. And I saw our buddies Zach Cram posed this morning, one of the advanced numbers. The highest win probability added in clutch situations this season.

And the list was number five, Yokic, number four, Monk, number three, Kuzma, number two, step, number one, DeRosen. And he said, that's not a typo. DeRosen has more than double the clutch wins added than anyone else in the NBA. And that's just a fancy way of saying, when the game's on the line, this guy delivers over and over and over again. And his team is amazing. Like they are having one of the great seasons in the Eastern Conference. And they've got a chance to be the number one seed when this is all said and done. Because looking right now, as of this.

morning, they're a half game up on the heat. They're the number one team in the conference, and he is doing historical things. I do feel like he is, you know, it was going to be very difficult to bust up that Yokic,

Embed, Janis, triumphant that we were all, you know, settled on arguing two and four, those different players, but De Rosen has put his name square on the map, I feel like. Sure. I mean, when you think about MVP, one of the arguments for Embed was the fact that he was carrying the Sixers roster to his top six seed without Ben Simmons.

That was one of the arguments. With Demarta Rosen, you can look at since Christmas, Caruso has played only six games. Lonzo has played only two games. And despite that, since Christmas, the Bulls have the eighth best record in the NBA. They're 20 and 11. this is this real, real extended stretch of DeRosen being a dominant force

since he got back himself in mid-December. Never mind just the last nine games, but the Bulls have managed to continue winning the far majority of their games because of DeRosen's play in clutch moments, as you said. And just also, like, on the rest of this roster, guys like Ayo Dostunu,

he's the one who set up the ability for Chicago to win last sense game with his defense on Trey Young. those soon were a rookie player coming in. Devante Green stepping up ever since Patrick Williams goes down. Nicola Vouchovich, as you pointed out a couple weeks ago when we were talking, Chris, Vooch putting up bigger numbers.

Granted, he didn't in the last science game, but Vooch has been putting up bigger numbers. Everybody on this team from top to bottom has managed to step up in ways that they need to. And this sets the team up for when Caruso's back, when Lonzo Ball's back, they're going to have the trio of Dosunu, Ball,

and Caruso, those guys on the wing? How do you score against those guys? Never mind if they get Patrick Williams back sometime in April from his hand injury. The Bulls check all of the championship boxes, all of them. They just need their guys back. Great combination.

And we talk about this all the time, about the way, you know, typically the best teams are built. And that is you've got your stars and you've got your role play. and they know who they are within the context of that team. And that's what's been most impressive about Chicago is throwing together three guys that at the end of games, they would be the guys that were taking shots,

whether it was Levine, whether it was Vucevich, whether it was DeRosen. And none of them were on good teams. None of them, right? San Antonio wasn't any good. Chicago wasn't any good. And neither was Orlando, for sure. but then they kind of filter around them with these role players. Everybody slides into place.

They have done it despite the injuries. And it's always dangerous. When you're facing a team, this is what you wanted the Lakers to be in the sense that, my God, when you're facing a team that has three different guys that could drop 30 on you any given night, that is a scary proposition.

Like Chicago is what this is supposed to look like. It is what these super teams are supposed to look like, which is the three guys that on any given night could kill you by themselves, but they do it in unison. And it is second tier stars. These aren't the super duper stars in the league. But man, it fits. And DeRosen has performed like a star.

superstar this year. He is so fascinating to me. Well, dude, I mean, that go-ahead jumper he hit with, what, 15 seconds last last night. He drives right, spins left, and he has two defenders just all over him, all over

them. And it still swishes the bucket, like it, it, playing in Chicago, it's Jordan-esque, it's a Kobe-esque shot. I mean, that's who DeMarda Rosen, like Kobe watched Jordan, the Rosen watch Kobe. I mean, I talked with the Rosen about that years ago for a story on the ringer.

It's like he wants to be like them on the court. That's the players he watched their footwork, where they get to on the court. It's kind of just amazing to see, like forget about the Bulls for a second. Just watching the Rosen do what he does in those endgame situations.

Isn't it just a pleasure to watch him play? For sure. I mean, isn't it just, it's just beautiful, isn't it? It really is beautiful to watch him play. And he got beat up. for a lot of years for what his game is. And the crazy thing about this deros at year is the league has come back around to him. You know, now these teams, so many times defensively, they are predicated upon running you

off the three point line and stopping you at the rim. Because those are the most efficient baskets for teams. And so stands to reason that defenses would say, hey, if we could do a good job at guarding the three point line. If we can do a good job at guarding the rim, then it's going to go a long way towards us getting victories. And many times, you will see that to be true of the teams that are the best at guarding those. Now, that has changed a little bit. Can I interject all there, Chris?

I want to interject real quick there. I would like the numbers. So on cleaning the glass, in Toronto, I'm just going to read his deep, mid-range shooting percentage year by year real quick. 38, 42, 34, 41, 31, 39, 35, 36, 40, 41. Then he gets traded to the Spurs. 40, 45, 49. Now with the Bulls, shooting a career high, 49% from deep mid-range. I would argue, yes, there is improvement, but more so, this is the shot that teams want you to take.

shots. It's like, so it could be a little of both. It could be, it could be a, DeRosen has made micro improvements to his game to become slightly more efficient on these shots. It could also be defenses have become more willing to let some of these shots get a little bit more open because not all of them are like the one I described last night with two guys over him to go ahead in the game. Not all of them are like that. I think it is both things. He's gotten slightly better, slightly more crisp as a ball handler with his footwork like he has every year DeRosen has worked on his game hard and it is also the way defenses have changed.

I don't think it's coincidence that the numbers really leap up by four, five, eight percentage points the last couple of years with the way defenses have changed. I think defensive philosophies, you know, they changed because of the way the game was played and for 90% of the time, it works out great. You know what I mean?

Look, there's guys that chart this now. Shot quality, does a great job with this. And this was why the analytics crowd was on top of the Rosen's head for so long. He takes inefficient shots. It's not efficient. Going to the rim is efficient. Yeah, he goes to the free throw line. But he needs to back up and he needs to start shooting threes.

That's what he needs to do. At one point, it did feel like that. Chris, because his numbers were low. Those were inefficient for him at one point, and he led the NBA in him. And what I'm saying is the league just came completely back around to him. You know what I'm saying? Like because of the, he's around long enough. If you stay around long enough, right?

It's going to come back your way. And it's like, oh, well, now everybody cares about, like, everybody cares about running off guys on the three point line or not letting you get open corners. threes or all of the things that were said he needed to be doing. And it's like now he's a cheat code because you set up your defense and you say, what we want is people taking mid-range jumpers. That's what we're, that's what we bargain for when we come into the game. We know the math says if you take a boatload of mid-range jumpers, we're going to win this

game. What we can have you doing is finishing at the rim, going to the free throw line, and knock it down threes. You know? Like, but he screwed the man. He is the math. Because, because now he's averaging, you know, 38 points a game doing exactly what teams for the last few years have decided is what they want to filter into. Paul's, I think, I think it's helped Paul's career too.

Another guy. Once he gets to that elbow, now I know he's out now. But once he gets to that elbow. Bob problem. And you, I remember you chronicling this years ago in that Houston series, they just refused to take anything inside the line. They refused to. Remember, it was all lobs or whatever.

And it was like, hey, just take a couple dribbles in and knock down a shot. Because it's not like the game's best scores, even the last five years, six years, haven't used the mid-range. I mean, Seth Parnell, on the Athletic, Kirk Goldsbury, many people at the in on the analytics guys have written about this. It's like, hey, the mid-range is dead for everybody. It's only dead for like the spot-out bigs that used to stand

around the baseline. It's dead. It's dead for the 6'7 wing who used to dribble into a 15-footer who's now taking side step three. You've seen how many times this year, Chris, have you seen Desmond Bain pump fake and take a side dribble to his left or right side? You've seen it

every other night. Probably the most common play. Exactly. Like that is something Desmond Bain does maybe better than anybody, but a lot of guys across the NBA have that shot because that's what you do now. That's just the shot you take nowadays, the more efficient shot. But for stars and for even second tier scores, like from guys like DeMarna Rosen to C.J. McCollum, those guys are all going to still feast in the mid-range. It's just everything else that's changed.

But now it's to the point that I believe, I forget the numbers off the top of my head, but Zach Cramm at the Ringer, he had some article weeks or months ago. that detailed how things have flattened out now in terms of efficiency of every shot on the court. It is even now. You can't just look at shot quality. I remember this. Yes, which is so strange, though,

just the way in which things have changed in that sense because of who's taking these shots when they're taking them and how defenses are reacting when those players try to take those shots. We are going to have tonight, You know, we were talking about the MVP discussion, whether it can get in. The guy who many people feel like is leading the MVP race going into this last quarter of a season is Joel Embed.

And we are going to see him alongside his new running partner, James Hardin, in a Philly debut tonight. And it is at Minnesota. Yeah, it is going to be exciting. Now, before we get into tonight and what it's going to look like and everybody's eyes are going to be trained on this game. very fascinated to hear Bill Simmons said what he said on his pod that he did was Zach Lowe that dropped. I was listening to it on my way into work. I appreciate Bill giving me credit.

My bullying did work. You know that he had said, so for those that don't know, Bill on a podcast with Cousin Sal after the Super Bowl brought up in passing, the hardened deal, what had happened with it, and there's a lot of stuff that went on with that hardened deal that's not out there yet. And then he basically says, you want to hear about it?

And Sal's like, yeah, I don't care about that. And I was like, no! And I think anybody that was listening that's an NBA fan was like, oh, Sal! And I was never going to forgive Sal. So then he says, I tell Bill, come on the mismatch with us. if you're not going to do your pod

basketball wise this week, come on with us and I want to hear this stuff. And he says, actually, I am recording tomorrow and I'll do it. So then I listened to it. With Zach Love? No, no, this was with Heralobob. He did the one with Heralobob.

That's who we recorded. Okay. And then I listened to it there, right? He didn't say anything. So you know, we were on a group text and I reamed him for it. No, hold on now. Where is this

hard in info? I've been waiting for this since Cousin Sal said said he didn't want to hear it. This is bogus. It's like, come on the mismatch, Bill. Come on. So yesterday,

he records with Zach and he credits my bullying for getting this out of him. But he says some very fascinating stuff. It was worth the weight. He says three different things. The first is that

the reason the hardened thing took so long and it got dragged out, even though everybody was kind of talking about it in the background, is because Joel Embed was pushing for a Brad Beale deal. He wanted Beal. And he was working on Beal. And then, so that's what he thought it was a better fit. He wanted Beal there. I don't know what kind of prior relationship. relationship they have, but that he really wanted Brad B. And then Brad Biel gets hurt. Even then, M. B's like, you know, look, if we're going to make a trade, if we're going to move the Simmons thing, I want to get Brad Biel. Brad Biel's a guy I want here. And so that's obviously something you've got to take into real consideration when you're Daryl, you're the ownership

and everybody else. So then Beal says, I'm getting surgery. So that's out. That's out. And now, Daryl, who wanted Hardin all along, obviously, has to revisit that. And that's why it kind of got drug out. The stuff on, you know, him and Brooklyn was not salacious at all. It's a lot of ego stuff, which we all knew. The, you know, the whole Kyrie not getting back so they end up being there, James being used to having his own team and it not being like that.

that was one thing. And then the only other thing he said was that it was ridiculous to say that for Harden to stand up there and say that I wanted Philly all along. That was my first choice. He's like because him and KD worked with the owner to get that done. That's why Jared Allen and all these things, all these things ended up being included because those guys were working in unison. That didn't work out like they wanted it to.

but this whole revisionist history of like he and Kevin, you know, use their power to get that thing done. And so he obviously wanted to be in Brooklyn, but now in retrospect you could say, hey, I always wanted to be in Philly. Look, it's all water under the bridge now. That M.B. Beale thing is mega fascinating to me. But now we're going to get to see them together in unison. against a Minnesota team that I actually watched last night because they took down the Grizzlies in their game. And Minnesota, despite Anthony Edwards probably played the worst basketball game of his entire life.

Not on the defense event because he did a noble job on Morant and other wings that he had to guard. But offensively, just dreadful. I think he's one for 10, five points, just a non-factor. but DeAngelo Russell took over the game completely in the fourth quarter. He had 23 points in the quarter, and he did it himself. And that's a game team. Has DeAngelo Russell changed your perception of him this season, Chris? You know, I've always thought he was, I thought he was a guy that was better than people gave him credit for.

Like, talent-wise. But was he, but people and people, and I think even you and I both question, is he a winner, though? Oh, I think that's right. Does he have winning qualities? I mean, because I look at his game and like, obviously last time he has an offensive explosion against you guys. But defensively all year, he's been better than he's ever been more. He's communicating more than ever. And like people have done great stories on him being like as a roamer on their defense, being disruptive.

I've liked the way he's defended. He's playmaking. He's always been a good play. but playmaking better than ever as well. So, I mean, I think he's stepped up. I do like, I appreciate the way his game has evolved. Yeah, and I'm going to give credit where credits do. I think that defensive intensity that they could sometimes show is absolutely

an effect of Pat Bev being there. I do. Like, just that emotional, you know, we'll say anything to anybody. Vanderbilt, too. Jump on. Yeah, and no, and Vanderbilt's a grinder too. You know, and they've got guys. once you have guys like that that play, sometimes their impact is much greater than the box

score. They just raise the collective competitiveness of their teammates. And they can draw out of them something that had not been drawn out before. And I think that is true when you see some of the edge that some of those guys play with. They needed some of that. They needed toughness. Right? And somebody that they could follow and that would jump up in their face and yell at him and call out instructions from the bench and all this kind of stuff. He's not the greatest player in the world, but I do think, you know, when you're in that situation, that he can have an effect on these guys.

And I know that there's people in Minnesota. There's been articles written about this. I know their color guy was on with Riscilla and gave Beverly credit for this. I mean, his impact within that organization has been acknowledged by many. That's a game team. And so it's going to be fun. I think people are expecting Philadelphia, first time out, still honeymoon, go to Minnesota, get a win. It's not going to be easy. It's not going to be easy because that team is much like I was just talking about the Bulls

and three different guys that could give you a 30, they've got it too. Because Edwards can drop 30 on you, Towns can drop 30 on you, and Russell can drop 30 on you. Definitely. And every once in a while, Malik Beasley will catch fire, you know?

Minnesota's a good team, and even though it's a back-to-back, it'll be a challenge for Philly, especially their first game all playing together. It's going to be really interesting to see the way the Sixers just play basketball tonight. Yeah. I mean, the Curry and Bede action that they use so often with dribble handoffs, pick and rolls, screens, just the two-man game those guys had, especially the handoffs, was great.

All year long, one of the most efficient combinations in the league when those guys get together. You lose that with Hardin, but how much more pick and roll were they going to run? What are Doc Rivers' rotations going to look like? He said yesterday the plan is for at least two of Hardin and Bid, Maxie, and Harris to be on the court at all. times like i hear that and that's music to my ears it's music to sixers fans ears because doc rivers ever since he was coaching the celtics i remember him not having like he'd go stretch us without kg ray allen and paul pierce in the court together it's like dude you have three stars keep one of them on the court at all times what are you doing doc and it's the same thing that sixers

fans are saying nowadays it's like doc why are you not keeping multiple stars on the court you know like keep Simmons on the court without Embed. They don't have to play together. That was the thing last year. Now it's going to be staggering Hardin with Embed but the fact you have Maxie as like a 20 point per game guy, Harris can have good nights

even if there are some Maxi Harris minutes without Hardin and Embed. I think it's okay as long as it's limited but they get they get to stagger those guys as much as they can and play them together as much as they can. Hardin and Embed should be on the

Hardin or Embed should be on the court at all times as much as possible. And the reason that this particular matchup is very fascinating to me is because it's a better matchup for MB than it is for Hardin. I would imagine they will deploy the big, strong Anthony Edwards. I'm not saying that Anthony Edwards can lock down James Hardin. I'm saying they've got wings that they're going to deploy on Hardin. They've got some link there. They've got some strength there.

they've got some tenacity there. Big guys is where they have a little bit of an issue because they do play towns out there at center. And, I mean, the Grizzlies had 7,000 offensive rebounds last night. I don't know what the actual number was, but my rough count by watching that game was 7,000. They couldn't keep them off the glass. And so that's why I say, this is one of those games

where Joel Embed can really feast tonight. And I think it, I think at least for a while, we're going to see Hardin try to make that happen even more so, right? That he knows that people are out there talking about the impact, maybe the negative impact that he could possibly have on Embed, and so he will go above and beyond what may be the case later down the road to make sure that this is, I bet you that Embed goes crazy. That's right.

And if he doesn't, then there's something wrong because you have the opportunity against that Minnesota team if you're a big guy to torture them. It's a little harder for the guards. And so this first game that we're going to see them, it plays more to, Embed having a big night than Hardin. I'm sure everybody there's going to be mega patient about the way it looks. Right? Patience, I'm sure. Everybody's going to be.

It could, it could, you know, turn into an Embeddneight. We'll see. We'll see. I mean, we'll see how they unleash this. They could also try to ride hard and then get him going as quickly as they can throw everything out there with Hard and everything they have in their playbook to see what works, what doesn't. It could be a heavy usage hard tonight, but we'll see.

We'll see. I just look forward to seeing how those guys play together because we have never seen Joel and Bede play with a perimeter shot creator of the caliber of James Hardin. We have never seen James Hardin play with an interior force who can also do stuff on the perimeter of the caliber of Joel Embed. We have never seen two MVP talents play with guys as good as they're about to starting tonight. And that has me very excited as a basketball fan. The Celtics ran out on Brooklyn last night. We were talking about continuing things that were trends prior to the All-Star break.

The Celtics looked fantastic against Brooklyn. They've been on absolute fire. And at some point, the sample size is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And it's like, this is what you are now. This isn't just a great way. run as much as it is this is what they have morphed into. And sometimes that can be hard to acknowledge simply because we had the sample size at the beginning of the season of them being a rather mediocre team.

But they have been well beyond mediocre. The defensive numbers are the defensive numbers. And watching them last night, there are certain nights where they can look pretty devastating. big waz had uh jared weiss from the athletic on his sunday night weekends of waz pod on the ringer nba show feed and and jared wrote a great story at the athletic explaining time lord robert williams and how the celtics moved him off uh the centers to an off ball player so he could kind of roam more on defense stay near the rim be be involved in less direct pick and roll actions uh which has put more of a load on Al Horford, who's been really good and was really good in last night's game.

But Robert Williams, Chris, every time I watch Robert Williams, every time I hear someone speak about him, including Jared Weiss, just puts a smart. Dan Devine had a great thing about him on the ringer earlier this week as well. But, you know, Robert Williams is just his growth. I think it kind of represents the Celtics overall growth as a team in the sense that they go from like iffy, shaky on defense, if he shaky on offback. but with Robert Williams, as his status has grown on Boston to become a 30 plus minute guy every single night, the ball just moves on offense when he's on the floor as a center.

He makes rapid decisions, just keeps it flowing. And on defense, he's just such a nuisance around the basket. Anytime he's on the floor, regardless of where you put him, he's a nuisance with his length, activity, instincts, shop blocking ability. Robert Williams, to me, is the guy that I watched a blast-lines game against the Nets and just in general with this team where I'm like, he's one of the big reasons why the Celtics team has been as good as they are. Well, and the crazy thing is, Kev, the things that you acknowledge about the way they look now are exactly the things that everybody criticized, including within the locker room early in the air,

which is the ball doesn't move. There's, you know, it's my turn, your turn. There's very much a problem with four guys standing around and watching Jason Tatum take a turnaround contested jumper. There's very little interaction many times on the court between him and Jalen Brown. It's either a big Jailen Brown night or it's a big Tatum night, but rarely in tandem are they both awesome. and you got to give you doka a lot of credit. And maybe it's one of those things where we need to acknowledge that,

like they did change some personnel again. They did change head coaches and that this one took a little bit longer than some transitions. But that when you do change some things, that there are going to be some real growing pains. And sometimes, especially when you were expected to be good, maybe those got prolonged a little bit, but they made a very good move in the Derek White move. He has fit seamlessly.

Seameless. And like Robert Williams, one of those guys where when he's on the floor, the ball just moves. It just doesn't stick. It's contagious. And even last night, I mean, they beat the piss out of the nets. but it's a little of the Nick Nurse thing last night. Now, the minutes weren't crazy for the starters,

but it's really seven guys that were playing last night. You know, everybody else got six or less minutes on that team. And so how many times we talked about over the years, Kevin, like don't play guys that hurt you, don't play guys that suck, whatever you want to call it. like some of these teams just realize we can't play deep into our bench because those three, four minutes might swing the game, might get us beat. And so our best players are the ones that are going to log the minutes for us.

And if it has to be a seven-man, eight-man rotation, then so be it. But, I mean, even on a night where you win by 23, you played seven guys, really. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're eight-man rotation. It's like White and Pritchard and Williams off their bench. and if it's a close game, there might not be anybody else playing. And I don't know, man,

like with this Celtics team, it's just so funny how rapidly things can change. Like Udoka, he goes from bashing his team publicly to now he says last night, it's what you ask for as a coach, showing up with a certain mindset and being ready to play. We've bought into the defensive mentality. We're sharing the ball.

Two simple things. Do that. And more often, not you get good results. Like you said, those are the two things they weren't doing early in the season. They are the two things that they're doing now. Part of that is because of a change mindset. Part of that. I mean, like even Marcus Smart, ever since he got back from COVID, he's shooting the ball better. So maybe it's just a hot streak here. But he's also taking smarter shots. He's focusing on playmaking more. He clearly heard all the calls about the Celtics

scene a point guard. The Celticsena point guard. He's like, oh, I can be a point guard. and he's done that. It's the moves, getting a guy like Derek White into this team where his impact goes beyond the box score. And it's simply the development

of a certain guy like Robert Williams where he's become somebody you can rely on for 30 plus minutes per game. And that makes a dramatic difference for this team. One of the things that I have not heard people talk about,

but I do think is interesting is when I was watching them and saw, you know, every time you see Derek White, it feels different because you're used to seeing Derek White in that's first uniform for so long. But not only is Derek White somebody that they could bring in, that could be in the rotation,

play a lot of minutes for you, and be very good. He also has a prior relationship with Udoka. And that's always great, right? Another guy that's like, you know, more of a veteran guy, been around enough. And he knows that he knows what he's talking about. and those kind of guys getting somebody in the locker, another guy in the locker room that is A on your side and B, there to say, like, you know, the first time,

or if anybody was like, man, this dude, this coach, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You need those kind of guys, especially when it's all new. And so I do think just some reinforcement on the, hey, if you do what this guy says, you know, he comes from, from that San Antonio school, and this is gonna work out in the end. You know, but to pay attention, and if we, there is a,

there's a method to this madness that's gonna work out. And I do think adding somebody that had a prior relationship with him probably, you know, can't be anything but a good thing. Yeah, especially at the time they did, because the Celtics, in their own way, starting to develop a relationship with him, momentum starting to build for the overall team

to feel like they have togetherness. It's just so different than the last couple of years with this team. Their locker rooms are split up. They're not together. There was a literal divide between sections of the locker room. Now this team is together. They're playing together. And they're doing, as Udoca said last night, the things that they need to do, sharing the

ball and coming to the court with a defensive mentality. Simple stuff, Chris. Yeah, no, it's nice to see this is one of the good stories of the NBA of a team that we're really down on that has turned it around. And it seems sustainable, and it does seem sustainable, too. Yeah, and, I mean, look, you could save me on the, hey, I thought you guys weren't believing in the Celtics. I thought you needed to, look. Well, how did you change there, Chris? There's an old phrase, folks.

And I'll do this for the kids. When it's sugar, it's sugar, when it's crap is crap. You know what I mean? Like, at the time, no, no. It was crap. Recently. And now it's sugar. Well, how about recently?

Recently I said to you, are they final sleepers? And I think you said no at the time. Would you change to yet? No, I wouldn't change that. You wouldn't? Really? No. No.

What needs to happen? Let me ask you this instead then. What needs to happen from Boston side of things for you to believe that they can? Or is it the same answer that they can't? Or is it the same answer that? the other teams that you feel are just so much better. But what can Boston do to change your perception there? This is an easy one to answer.

Get more good players. Okay, well, that can't happen. So, like, besides the buy-out market. That's why I'm saying, that's why I said they can't be finals. But is there anything you can see from a developmental standpoint from Tatum or Brown? Is there anything that can happen from these guys that the Celtics currently have to make you believe, okay, they can make the NBA finals? I don't think this roster can make the NBA finals.

That's what I would tell you. Do I think that those guys internally can improve and that if you flanked them with guys going forward and you improved the roster going forward? And I'm not saying this as like, I mean, again, it's Milwaukee that we're talking about beaten. It's Philly we're talking about beaten. It's Brooklyn we're talking about beating.

It's Miami we're talking about beating. Like these are better teams. if they're loaded. Now, if they're not healthy, everything, you know, at that point, yeah, all bets are off. If they're the healthy ones and Durant's not playing and, you know, if Hardin messes up Philly or Simmons messes up Brooklyn, but just in terms of sheer roster, talent on the roster, those teams are a pace ahead. And when you, and usually that plays out over the course. of seven games, you know, I suppose that teamwork can make the dream work sometimes, but

if we've learned anything from the history of the NBA, it's usually the talent. So that's what I would say. They played seven guys last night. Eight, eight, eight, eight, I think that's a tough ass. They played eight, eight guys. Well, really, look, they played more than, nobody else had more than six minutes. Yeah, I know. I'm just saying, like, they have an eight-man rotation.

It's Pritchard, William. and white off the bench. It's those three, most nights, and then, like, the extras. I think that you need at least eight to ten guys. For me to think that you could be a finals team. Or... So, like, playing Daniel Tice is the difference maker?

No. He's not good enough. I know. I know. I'm just saying. I feel like it comes from the top. Like, if Tatum takes a leap or becomes consistently 30-plus minutes per game, I don't know.

Like, if you get something from the top of your roster, to me, that's where the difference comes. If those guys go from the 15th best player in the NBA to arguably the 10th best player in the NBA, if Brown goes from arguably the 20th best player to arguably the 15th, stuff like that happens. To me, that's what can separate who they can become in the postseason. Well, and they screwed things up in terms of perception of them because of their success so early. I think that's, I think it's a fair statement. because when you take a step back,

we talked about this because Janus was kind of an outlier in the success that he had at the age that he had it. But typically the guys who are the guy on those title teams, on the ones that make NBA finals, those guys are usually veteran players. They're usually 27, they're usually 28, they're usually 29, or older.

That's usually when it breaks for you. and Janice kind of turned it on his head by doing it a little bit earlier than many of his peers of the past. But Tatum's still young. I know that sounds crazy. But I mean, you know, could Jason Tatum improve greatly

and be even better as the years go on? But I mean, do I like them? We started off talking about the Bulls. I didn't even include them. That East is going to be a, Gauntlet. Oh, yeah, it is. It's going to be a gauntlet.

I didn't even include the team that's ranked number one right now amongst the ones that, geez, man, are you getting past them? So I just think they need a little more depth and talent before they can pull that off. We'll see how that plays out. It'll be interesting. As I pulled up the standings on ESP and I noticed the front page on Zachalow's 10 Things. The headline says, Russ as Dremont to salvage the Lakers seasoned. Oh, my man.

Do I now have Zach Lowe on my squad here, Chris? Do I finally have Zach Lowe support? I thought I needed help about asking Russell Westbrook to play more like Draymond Green. It's hilarious. I'm very happy to have Zach Lowe support on this train. But I was trying to pull up the standings as I was doing that. And like the Celtics right now, four and a half games, back from the Bulls for the one seed in the Eastern Conference.

The Celtics are sixth right now. The Raptors are one game back. They're the seven. The Nets right now are three and a half back. They are the eight. Can you imagine? No, what I wanted to ask is this, Chris. Do we see that top eight changing?

Dramatically. I mean, no, no, I'm asking. What I'm saying is do we see those eight teams changing? Is there any chance of a Charlotte or, in Atlanta or a Washington hopping into it because right now Charlotte is two back from Brooklyn Atlanta's two and a half back from Brooklyn

for the eight. Do we see that changing at all? Well I mean now taking into consideration will they get to eight that may be a little far-fetched but of those teams that you just mentioned the only one is Atlanta. You could see Atlanta

going into a play-in situation of winning. I think Cleveland is going to fall into the plan. Cleveland is going to end up the eight seed would be my prediction I literally asked you that on Tuesday I mean and I I don't know what I said that was it was holy crap

is this real life? I will change now I will change now I will change now number nine it'll change I have since changed Oh my God I am changing they will fall into the play in it's been 72 hours

I have since changed They've played one game and they lost to the piston Chris, I want to amend my answer. It's okay. I made a mistake. Number nine on our game of, that's true, that might be true, that's ridiculous, was Cleveland will end up having to play their way into the playoffs.

What did I say? It might be true. Did I say it might be true? I forget what I said. But I now feel firmly after watching that Pistons. You're changing it to that's true. Well, no, well, it. Well, what happened is it continued some of the stuff that we saw before the break,

where the defense isn't quite the same level it was before. I think some of those bigs have hit a little bit of a wall, you know, in terms of the energy defending on the perimeter. Garland having this lingering injury, not playing the first game after the break. That's concerning if Garland's being the first game after the break. I think it's a mistake to judge him on last night. They didn't run into a wall, Cap. they ran into Marvin Bagley.

Let's go! Let's throw you an accidental alley-up there. Let's go! They didn't run into a wall? Is that what we're going to start calling Marvin Bagley, the wall? No, that's a Pink Floyd album. You don't want to defame it? No, I don't.

A couple other things we're going to get to. Though I absolutely would love some Pink Floyd Photoshop's of Marvin Bagley or anything NBA related for that matter to any of our listeners. Pink Floyd, NBA matchups, crossovers, let's make it happen. That's right up my alley. Speaking of, and I know this is not Pink Floyd, but guess who just announced that they were doing, they're going to be doing a concert here at the Grizzly Stadium at FedEx Forum? I couldn't believe this. Paul McCartney. Paul McCartney's going to tour. Was it Paul McCartney? The who? The who? I saw the who before with my dad. I was like, what? The who? He's on tour?

I may have to go do that one. You know, I would love to see The Who just do a full Tommy tour. Like just the full album. Like Roger Waters when he toured the wall, Pink Floyd's the wall the other day. It's just this is an entire production. Me and my dad saw it like three times

over the course of a couple years of him touring that. And it is the best show that I've ever seen because it was more than a concert. It was a whole production. The Who should take Tommy on the road and just do a whole production of Tommy. That's what I'd love to see. Not a bad idea.

Your classic rock corner right here. There you go. Last night, the Warriors killed the Blazers. They didn't need to play Steph in the fourth. The big thing is there's news about and Steph even spoke about Wiseman is scrimaging with them, playing with them. And so his return on the horizon, of course, over the All-Star break, Dremont sounded. rather positive about his ability to return with some time left in the regular season. And, you know, as we look forward and we talk about that depth and maybe depth can show up as

the season goes on, Kaminga looks good, man. And Kaminga is like a guy that you could see helping them and maybe being a little bit of an X factor as an afterthought. There are so many times I watch him. and I feel like, and again, they're not equals in terms of what they bring to the table now, because one of them is 50 years old and one of them is like 19 years old. But that frame and kind of filling in the gaps, it's very Iguodala-esque many times when I'm watching him. And he can do some, he can do some special things.

He got some run last night. And on the other side here, I was so disgusted yesterday. How come? By that announcement that Yusuf Nerkich is going to sit out the last month this season. I know he's not your best friend. But I saw Nerkich. He's my best friend. I'm not his best friend.

He doesn't like me. I like him. I saw Nurchich. Four weeks of plantar fasciitis, right? Okay, I saw him a week ago. The last game before the All-Star. break. They played against Memphis. I saw him in person. He was the best player on the floor. It was the first time since 2002 that two Portland Trailblazers not named Damian Lillard and

C.J. McCollum had scored 30 points a piece in a game. And it was him and Simons. Simon's been going off. Hart's been going off. They had beaten the bucks. They beat the Grizzlies. They had beaten these teams. And, you know, look, you traded the whole damn team away. You traded Covington, you traded Norm Powell, you traded away, CJ. Dane's going to sit out the rest. You're running out there with Anthony Simons and Josh Hart and Yusuf Nerkich and this group. And you can't stop them from winning. And so you step in to stop them from winning.

Like you traded the whole fucking team. It's the right decision, Chris. It's the right call. The players should be taking. You have like a 20% chance to get a top four pick. Winning games is a bad idea. Let these guys go out and play.

People cared about this team. It was fun those last four games. These kids are growing, you know, and getting this experience and getting the win. And if you can't, look, you traded the whole team away. No. For you to step in and say, you know what? Nope. No chance you're winning because if you play, we might win.

Joe Curtis. Shut a guy down and say, oh, he's got Planner Fascia. He can't play anymore. I mean, there's a quarter of the season left. To your own fan base, to all the road games you're going to be playing, it's just a joke. It's a joke. It's the most intentional bullshit because they won four games in a row after you gutted the team. They were basketball major league.

You know, of course, the Joe Cronin and the Blazers' front office made such a good decision. I'm a believer. I'm a believer in them. To do what? It made such a good decision here, Chris. What good decision? Sitting there because it's a good decision. Why?

How is it not a good decision? Because this season is meaningless in terms of winning and competing games. This season is about building for. next year with Damian Lode for two reasons. A, you don't want Nurghers to suffer a catastrophic injury by the end of the season because then that screws you next year. It screws you in the summer with everything that you could do. And you also want a better draft lottery odds because you want to have a chance to draft Chet Holmgren, Jabari Smith, whoever it might be. You want a chance to have one of those top picks because you're thinking about next year. This is a move

for the future around Damien Lillard when he's actually active. Right now, winning, games doesn't matter. It would be, it would have been so dumb if they let Nurk and Simons continue dominating. How about this? Now sit in that locker room. Sit in that locker room. You tell Anthony Simons that. I'm happy for Drew Ebanks.

I'm happy. Hey, Drew, you get a chance to start, buddy. You go, would you, would you say that, would you say it to Anthony Simons? Would you say it to Josh Hart? Would you say it to? Amphrey Simons can still crush. Those guys on that team? Because now you're getting a guy like Greg Brown to get minutes off.

the bench. To me, the priorities changed. Oh, no. Good God. Do you think I'm joking? Do you know I watch? You're asking, you ask me if I'm in that locker room. I saw one of, Chris, you, you, you ask me if I'm in that locker room, how am I going to feel? And I'm giving you an answer. I'm looking around and thinking to myself, like, okay, now I'm going to win with these guys who haven't had opportunities to play. I'm trying to win games with Greg Brown now, a rookie. You're not trying to win. That, that I'm saying, you ask me how I would feel if I'm in that locker room. I'm saying, I'm looking around and I'm like,

Greg Brown's been busting his ass in practice all year. Now we're going to try to win with him. You know you're not winning shit without Damien Lower, dude. You know you're smart enough to know in that locker room. You treat Sage of a column. You're not trying to win games this year. You know that the priority is next season. You know that if you're in that locker room.

Like, no, da. So I'm looking around and trying to make the most of it. Greg Brown, drew you back. Justice Winslow, let's see what you can turn you into. Do you think those kids were playing like they knew that nothing matters and the next year is what matters when they went and beat Milwaukee, Milwaukee, when they beat Memphis of Memphis, when they're having 30-point games in wins and they're playing really well?

You better believe they wish they were getting to the play in, just so they could have a chance at it. Of course they do. And I'm saying that from the front-offism standpoint, that's a nice story. It's a cute story. Infony Simons leads the Blazers into the 10-seed. They get smacked.

Great story. You know what's a better story? Blazers have this horrible season. They miss the playoffs. They get some lottery luck and they land the opportunity to Paris a young star with Damien Lillard. That's a good story. That's the path that I want to go down if I'm Portland.

That's the path I want to go down to try to win a championship with Damien Lillard and sustained success into the future. That's the path I want to go. The odds are good enough. It doesn't matter. The odds are better. Yes, it does. The odds are better.

Right now, right now. When you have an 80% chance of it not happening, it matters. The odds go from zero if you make the playoffs to 20% if you stay where you are right now. They can go up to 40. Right now, dude, right now Portland is three and a half back from Sacramento for the six best odds. The difference go from 20% to get into the top four to 37%. They nearly double. The odds can change quite a lot to get you into the top four.

They can just by a couple of games difference. So Sacramento, you can take that play in spot. You can have it. That's the way I feel if I'm a Blazers fan right now. I'm rooting for missing the playoffs. I'm rooting for development from Anthony Simons. I'm rooting for guys to get better together. But at the end of the day, when I look at that box score,

I want to see an L right there. It always works out. Because the L doesn't represent what's happening for your organization. You can still be getting better, developing, improving, but still lose games. Look, when you gut out a team... You want them to make the playoffs? No, but when you gut out a team and then those guys still go out and play hard and start winning games, and then you say, all right, I know we gutted the team, but we're putting an end to this.

You guys don't get to go win anymore. You don't get to do that. That sends a terrible message. They're not doing that, though, just by... And for all this, look, for all the years that you've talked about tanking, Wait a minute. It doesn't work. It doesn't work.

It's a bad strategy. But why do you assume Nurgich is healthy enough to play? Why do you think he just doesn't have Plantar fasci iris? I watched him in the last game. He had 32 points of the best player on the floor. What did he do it over spring break? He got Planner Fascia over spring break. Over the All-Star break?

He got Planner Fascia? What the hell out of my face? They got Prestiitis. That's what they got. And press theitis. That's what they got. Press theitis. And this guy, this cron, it's a great idea.

He's going to sell this bill of goods to his owner saying, hey, yeah, we'll get a good pick. Then they'll get the fucking seventh pick. And then he'll be like, oh, well, it was still worth it to, you know, send a message to my team that winning doesn't matter. Good thing. Good thing that I ended up with this guy, this guy that nobody's ever heard of. That, you know, his team hardly made it. out of the first round of the NCAA tournament. Cool.

Yeah. Then sometimes when you get a top pick, what happens, Chris? You get a guy who changes the franchise. Like Zion. Like Jha. Well, they won. Like Moamba.

Hey, good point. The Grizzlies won down the stretch. Sometimes you miss, Chris. Yeah. Sometimes you miss. The Grizzlies won down the stretch of that season. They won 30-something games that year. But the point is, they got lucky.

The point is, yes, they got lucky. And I'm saying they got lucky because they had a lottery pick and they won the lottery. The Blazers, I want to have a lottery pick. I don't want to make the play in. I want to have a chance. Even if it ends up where it is, if the Blazers make the playoffs, that is the worst thing that could happen to them because then it's going to be four games of what happened last night against the Warriors.

They're going to get fucking smacked. It's not worth it. It's bad news. What you want is a chance. on May 17th for us to argue the next day about the Blazers, what are they going to do with the number one pick? What are they going to do with the number four pick? Or it'll be, uh, they lost out.

They ended up with the seventh pick. Who do they get there? Having the seventh pick for them and the chance of getting a top pick for a guy you could change your entire team. That's why I respect Damian Lillard. So it's a real player. Because he said, y'all are going to lose on purpose.

I'm not coming back for that. I can't play that way. I can't play that. It's the opposite. It's the total opposite. He has totally signed off on everything that's happening. It's the total opposite. Trading CJ, sitting NERC, trying to focus on next season.

Damien Lillard knows the plan. And everything that the Blazers did has been setting up for next year with Damien Lillard. To me, at this point, based on everybody I've talked to, everything I've heard, I would be shocked if we get to the summer and Damian Lillard says, I want out. So like the Lakers are going to think about. trading Russell Westbrook for Damian Lillard. You're going to have teams going for DIM. The Knicks are going to go for DAME.

A ton of teams are going to go for Dime. But I would be surprised today if Damian Lauer demanded a trade the soft season. To me, everything has been about next year and building this thing out for Damien Lillard. And that includes sitting NERCITCH right now, trying to get better lottery odds, and trying to land a star.

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. The Nuggets smacked around the Kings despite a huge subonis night. We talked earlier about MVP candidates and Yokic is certainly squarely in that mix. He was great again. And that is such an odd team. You know, they come out there.

They start, they, you know, for the people that don't watch Denver very much, like, he's basically their point card. Like, they don't, they don't even have one. It's that lineup, which I went up and looked at the numbers that they start with his Yokic with Will Barton and Aaron Gordon and. and Michael Green, and who's the fourth one that I'm missing here? It's Barton, it's Yokic, it's Aaron Gordon, and then, oh, Morris, Morris, right? Morris brings a ball up to court and then they talk to Yokin, she runs through everything.

But, I mean, that net rating is 13.4. They score, their offensive rating is 124.2 this season. That five guys, the ones they start, and you can go through it. They're amazing with Yokochan on the court. They suck without Yokic on the court, right? It's pretty simple. Mike Malone's been bitching about this all year. Michael Malo.

I don't want him to get mad at me. Have you ever heard about that? Like about your saying calling him Mike? Has anybody ever said, hey, Chris Vernon, you know, call him Michael. Has anybody ever reached out to you to correct yourself? No one has ever asked me, but I have heard stories of. Yes. Yeah, I've heard stories of.

of as well. That he wants to be called Michael. Michael. Yes. Michael Malone. Yes. Ain't no Mike.

Call him Mike if you want to piss him off. But call him Michael if you want to be a good person. There you go. Michael Malone. But that Denver team, 124 offensive rating with that starting five, you know, and there's no question.

Their schedule's not that typical down the stretch. Man, they get Murray back and there's been a little news about them getting Murray back, hopefully in March. Maybe it'll be enough time. to get him back in the mix. But if you're a high seed, man,

I don't want to say the hell away from them. Because that is one of those teams that, you know, if they're able to get Murray back, you know, I'm not counting on the Porter Jr. thing. But if they're able to get Murray back, that's not a team that is going to be representative of the seed that they have whenever they get in there. And I think very dangerous to anybody, you know.

It might not be the greatest reward to be the one, two, or three seed. And, you know, it could very easily set up if Memphis catches Golden State, where it would be Golden State in Denver in the first round. Sheesh. They are. They get him back. Watch out. The nuggets are sleepers.

Yeah. If they get Murray back, but they also do need Porter Jr. back, in my opinion. And Tim Conley, their president of basketball operations, said when he announced that Murray could be cleared very soon, he also did say Michael Porter Jr. could be cleared soon. Hopefully, in the not too distant future, is the phrase he used. Yep. So if you get both those guys back, hmm. Yeah. You get a real shot.

I know. You're a Western hero. You are a, you could be the NBA finals, for sure. Yeah. Especially with the mystery around Paul, we don't know. You know, he's out two months. And that leads us to our last topic. Man, how much do you love Point Booker?

You love Point Booker. You love Point Booker. He was slinging the ball around last night, Chris, with kickouts, the corner three point shooters, dump offs in the inside, Even Booker. It's 12 assists last night. I recommend to all the listeners, you are at the end of this podcast right now.

You're near the end of this podcast right now. After this podcast, I'm going to either tweet out or find it on YouTube a video of all of Booker's assist last night. So I might just tweet it out because it was just so fun to watch. Oh, like you don't have it saved on your phone. It's not saved on my phone, but it's saved on my laptop. I just have to edit it myself tonight or today. rather it's the morning.

And just put that out there because, dude, Devin Booker last night, the playmaking was beautiful to watch. It makes me really excited for the next six, seven weeks without Chris Paul to see Point Book. It's a lot of fun. That's the only porn on your laptop. Because you could stream, Chris.

Not Kevin O, only fans. No, I don't do only fans. I can't, I can't rationalize paying like $9.99 a month. Oh, my God. It's going to do it for today's show. Thank you, Darkson, producer, Jesse Lopez, is always Kevin. I'll talk to you next week. Have a good one.