The Mismatch - Denver’s Dynasty Plans, Dame’s Debut, and NBA Preseason Observations

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Verno and KOC open the show by discussing Kevin’s latest article detailing Nuggets GM Calvin Booth's desire to build a dynasty in Denver (01:36). Damian Lillard made his Bucks debut over the weekend, as the guys share what they like about the Dame-Giannis duo, then discuss the biggest questions surrounding the Lakers heading into the season (25:01). The guys next debate whether Ben Simmons can return to form as a defensive force after a strong preseason showing, and the latest around James Harden (33:40). Is Terance Mann really the holdup in a Harden trade to the Clippers? Also, the guys discuss the snake-bitten Pelicans, as well as their excitement for Jabari Smith Jr.’s development (48:36). Read KOC’s article about Calvin Booth and the Nuggets here. Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, this is Ben Lindbergh. And Jessica Clemens. And we are the hosts of Buttonmash, the ringers video game podcast on the Ringerverse feed. We are in the midst of the biggest blockbuster gaming month, either of us can recall. We're talking about Spider-Man 2, Super Mario Bros, Alan Wake, Five Nights of Freddy's, Assassin's Creed Mirage. We will have our hands full, you can have your ears full with us talking about these wonderful video games. On the Ringervverse feed, weekly throughout this month, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and join as he does every Monday night from

the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin Obama, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin. Boehseran. Back to twice a week, baby. Year 8. Let's go. Back to twice a week and the NBA is going to be back in regular season form a week from Tuesday when most people are going to to be listening to this with the Lakers and the Nuggets and the Sons and the Warriors tipping off opening night. And one of those teams, I think it's fair to say, has gotten talked less about than the other three. And that is the reigning champion Denver Nuggets while the offseason has been spent talking about James Hardin and Damien Lillard and free agency and the draft and everything. else that went on. Here are the Nuggets who are the reigning NBA champions. And then out of nowhere, an article drops today on the ringer.com inside the Denver Nuggets plan to build a dynasty.

Then you have the money quote from Calvin Booth, their general manager. If everything is optimized, we should win three or four titles. So now we have, we have. of the perfect jump-off point. That article, coincidentally, was written by Kevin O'Connor. I got to tell you, I love the inside stuff, the fly on the wall type stuff. Those are always my favorite sports books. Those are always my favorite kind of articles. And I'm not saying this because you're my co-host and we've been together for eight years. This article is legitimately great and your writing's great, but your subject is incredible. I had no idea Calvin Booth would be that forthcoming and that good talking about how he views the team,

how he views building out a roster, how he views draft picks, and then kind of how he views where they stand within the landscape of this new collective bargaining agreement. Let's just start with you guys sitting at lunch. And before we get into all the details, just tell me about, did you have any idea what had just happened in terms of content when you walked out of wherever you guys had lunch? Did you walk out and go, oh, my goodness, this is going to be a lot. amazing. I walked out feeling like I just had a super transparent conversation with the GM who is

open and honest and there was two or three times throughout the lunch that he was like off the record on this. And so like there's just cool to have, you know, that those open conversations with a GM with Calvin like even like on the record, off the record, it doesn't matter. Like he was so open about you know, kind of where the nuggets are and where the league is going. As you said, Chris. I mean, it covered everything. I'm really happy with how it turned out. That's because of, you know, like a lot of his insight and the inside of the other people I talked to for the story as well with some of the players. But Calvin is like kind of the subject of the story. He is the guy. I mean, like he's building on top of what Tim Conley initially built, the foundation that Conley built and Calvin made the right moves to turn them into an NBA champion.

And like it is fascinating to see the way in which they're going above. this to try to build a sustainable team. And he was forthcoming about their intentions on drafting older rookies about how tough decisions are going to have to come in the future. And they seem to be planning ahead on all of that. And I appreciated his forwardness and that. And I think a lot of the feedback that I've gotten from fans on, you know, social media, but like from you and also, but from people who work in the league, they're like, wow,

like really impressive. I didn't know much about Calvin. Like a lot of people are saying, I'm impressed. by his mindset and his approach to basketball. And that's the way I felt when I did walk away from that lunch. I was blown away. Also being willing to talk about how he views. And for any basketball fan that cares about so many of the things that we talk about,

which is roster construction and how teams are put together, his level of conviction as to this is what you need to have. And when he starts talking about overlap, And he even cites, you know, the Lobb City clippers as a team that, like, they just had, they just had overlap in a couple of different spots. And so this, we've been intentional about these are the kind of skill sets we care about. These are the four things that we care about. And they need to have three of them.

I mean, just the idea that he was this forthcoming because so many of these guys act like what their secret sauce is. is, are state secrets. And instead, he's willing to, like, you know, when I said the fly on the wall stuff I love, years ago, and I'm sure you're familiar with this guy, I don't give a crap about the Patriots, I know you do. But there was a book written by Michael Holly called Patriot Rain, and he got to spend a season, and he was a fly on the wall.

And I'm like, if Bill Belichick is allowing a writer to be a, why on the wall. And you know what I mean? And describe everything that's going on. And, you know, there are so many different times where this has happened. I remember years ago, the guy that built the Giants, a guy named Ernie O'Courney. There's a book called The GM. It's great.

And he's talking about how he built the giants and why he liked Eli Manning in the draft and why he cared about OCU Manure and Michael Strayhan. this is how we're going to build a defensive line, and this is what we need in our quarterback, and this is what we want in our while. And it was like every once or a while, you'll come across a guy that's willing to explain himself. And Calvin Booth, in your article,

like he's like, these are the four things we care about. Here's an example of a guy not having all of them. Here's an example of a guy that we had in Michael Porter. who has to get better at one of them and did. And here's what we need across the board so that our skills don't overlap and so that we have the proper roster construction that we think leads to success. And just reading all of it, like I said, these guys try to play so many times everything so close to the vest that I loved the fact that here's a guy that just won the title.

and he's willing to say, here's why we make the decisions we do, and here's the kind of players we like, and you can try to copy it if you want. I mean, like in the end, like with anything, it's like, bro,

you got Yokic, all the roster construction in the world. You know what I mean? But he does come off as a super bright guy that has real convictions about what he's doing. And that's like exactly what you said. Like having Yokich makes it all easier. That's what their assistant GM said to be in the story.

It's like, I mean, it becomes easy. when you have Yokic and then they have like other all-star caliber players. I don't think that part of the quote went in there, but he mentioned Jamal, Marie, Aaron Gordon, Michael Porter Jr. It's like when you have those guys, it becomes easier, obviously. Oh, I could hear the old school GM guys like, yeah, I'd be a genius too.

I'd be talking every day too if I had a friggin five-time MVP. But that's just like, I mean, I can see why like somebody, you know, like I could see why like somebody from the clippers might feel a certain way if they read that quote. I could see why another GM would feel that way too. But I don't think Calvin Booth was necessarily trying to paint himself as some super genius GM. I think he was just laying it out there. Here's how we view the opportunity to build around this legend in Nicoliochic.

And here are the things that we have to do to maximize him. That's the way I kind of viewed it. And they're acting on it. They're making those tough choices because they trade Bones Highland. I forget if this portion went into the article as well, but there's a section towards the end where I talked about, Calvin Booth mentioned they did a study internally about, you know, the team since 2008.

What do they all have in common in terms of length, wingspan, height, weight? And they noticed that every team that won the finals met a certain threshold in either average wingspan or average weight when you remove the smallest player on the court. They wanted to remove the outlier from those teams. and it was like, you know, average height of like 6-8 and average weight of, I don't know, 225. I'm just spitball off the top of my head. I forget the exact numbers.

And he said, like, we got under that after the bones trade. Like, they didn't, you mentioned like teams could copy Denver, but all Denver really did was study history too, recent history to see what other teams have done that ended up winning the finals. And the quote, I believe it did make the story was how he's like, you know, we don't, we don't want to be that outlier. We want to do it with the way the successful teams actually. have done it. So in many ways, it's not like anything he talked about or is in the story about

team building philosophy is new. It's just the things that they're doing, practicing on it and building on it. And that's what makes them so impressive. Like they draft Christian Brown last year, a junior he comes in and has a solid regular season. They trade Bowen, Thailand, which creates more minutes for Brown. He ends up having a very good postseason. They draft three guys, two fifth year seniors, one third year junior and Julian Strother, who's having one of the best pre-seasones in all of basketball right now. He looks awesome. He looks like he's a natural fit with everybody on that existing roster. And that gets back to the point you were saying about the stars that you have, the key players you have. It's kind of easy to know what you need and

the types of players you need when it comes to building around them. So this philosophy works for the current state of the team when you can ignore some of those home runs. swing type players. But, you know, I was impressed. I'm very impressed by that organization with the way they're trying to build around Yokach right now. Well, and also, you know, I know there's going to be a segment and a guy, you know, when I imitated the old school GM

that's like, yeah, well, I had Yokinj, everybody. But there have been all kinds of transcendent stars that haven't been built out around. And they fell short, yep. It's not, it's not as easy as you think it is. It's easy to know what you need. It's hard to make the right choice on the players available. Ask Rob Polinka.

Mm-hmm. Right? They put it together and they had it together for that bubble season. But, I mean, like, that's been the internal war is building out around this transcendent player or rather possibly two transcendent players there. Or you could look around the league and all the best player, whoever we think are the best players in the league. you know, we are seeing now Lillard and Yannis be together

because it was like, all right, what do we need around Yannis in order to make him feel like he has a chance at competing for titles for the next you know, two to three years. Bucks another great example of a team without overlap.

Like, look at the way their pieces fit together. Yeah. They don't have much overlap at all on their team. And you can say, oh, it should be easy. You know what I mean? But like, look at what they're going through with Dallas trying to build out around Luca. It's not

that easy. When I say easy, I shouldn't use that word. It's more like you it's easy to know what you need around Yokic. You're on second base. Yeah, exactly. You're not exactly. A hundred percent true. Maybe you're actually on third base.

With a guy that amazing. But the whole concept about the team building aspect, it does make me think about who are the teams that don't have overlap? Who are the teams that have a lot of overlap? We mentioned the Bucks. They don't have much overlap at all. Yannis and Dame coexist very well. We saw that in their first game together on Sunday. Brooke Lopez paired with Yonis works. Brooke Lopez alone works.

They don't have very much skill overlap. They're all their individual types of talents. Chris Middleton is far different than Yannis. He's far different from Damien Lourd. He's way different from Pat Connitton, for that matter. And who's way different from Jay Crowder? They don't. all bring something different. The calves are the team I think about when I think about kind of these top four or five teams in each respective conference where I'm like they have a lot of overlap. Mitchell and Garland both smaller guards, both guys who are best with the ball in their hands. Mowbly and Allen both very good room protectors. Mowgli's different in the sense that he's better on the perimeter, Allen on the interior, but neither of them spaced the floor on offense.

Neither of them are primary ball handlers or creators, shooters. Like Clevely would feel kind of like that modernized Lob City Clippers where there's elements of it that work really, really, really well. And they'll go to win a lot of games and probably win some series too. But I just wonder if ultimately

there's just too much overlap for them to actually be the team there at the end. It's crazy that you bring them up as an example because it's the exact same way. He brings up the Lob City and he brings up Paul and Reddick and he says, both fantastic undersized.

Yes. And then the two bigs, Blake and D'Andre, both fantastic, do too much of the same stuff. Neither could shoot. Right? Yeah, do too much of the same stuff, especially offensively. Now, it's funny, you mentioned Bones Highland. He's the one guy that if he read this article, he's throwing it into trash. Because holy mackerel, that is the one thing I did want to mention.

For the people that have not read this yet, he's talking about the, Bones Highland deal, which is the first move he made. And he said, I knew you couldn't have two guys that couldn't guard. I was like, God! I knew you have two guys. I mean, I was like, he's doing this on the record, huh? I knew you couldn't have two guys that couldn't guard, and we couldn't have two guys that were young and kind of more me guys.

Mike makes $30 million. He's one of the best shooters in the NBA. So Bones, there's no place for you. maybe I should have rewritten that quote into my own words or something. Oh, brother. I mean, yeah, I mean, I think the Porter kind of catches a little bit of a straight there. See, I don't I don't read that personally as a stray at Porter as much like in within the context.

More of a me guy. Yeah, I think it's a compliment to him in a sense. Like that's what you want. Yeah. If I'm going to have if I'm going to have this kind of player though, you can't have too many of them I want the guy that's one of the best shooters that makes 30 million so sorry bro

like we don't need you like that's that's the way I view it is exactly like that Chris I didn't view it as a shot of MPJ I know some Nuggets fans do maybe MPJ does I hope he doesn't like I viewed it as we can't have too much of the same thing

it was like I don't think he was necessarily saying that Bones is a failure of a player I just think I viewed it as he's just not a fit for us And he goes to a team where, you know, he's the clippers now. Maybe he can be their new Lou Williams, that type of thing. But ultimately, yes, I can see why Bones or MPJ might take that a different type of way.

But within the context, though, it does make sense. It really does, like when you consider overlapping qualities. It's like it's true for anything in life, right? Like, whether it's a marriage, you need to have some differences and you need to have some ways that you help each other's deficiencies and you compliment each other's strengths, a podcast partner? Right? I mean, we're in year eight. For a reason, because of our differences

and the ways in which we don't overlap, we overlap in the right way. So I think, regardless of what it is, it's just, you know, that conversation with it did make me think a lot about the state of the league and teams around the league and how they're building and the decisions that they're making. Whatever kind

of term you want to use, whether we're going to call a dynasty or not, What were you left thinking in regards to his, if we optimize everything, we should win three or four titles? And juxtaposed with the Draymond quote, everybody's going to remember us because basically it's impossible to do that now. With the way everything is structured, with the way the CBA is structured, that you're just not going to be able to do it like that and maintain. greatness for an extended amount of time to where you can win three or four titles. So you've got two sides of that, right? You have Draymond on one's hand saying, this can't be done anymore. And then on the other hand, you have Calvin Booth that's saying, if we do it all right,

that wasn't our last title. It wasn't a one-shot wonder. We can, we lost two rotation guys for sure, but we can, we can still win these. What do you make of it? I'm all the way with Calvin Booth on that. I think Draymond's wrong about it. It's just going to be more difficult. It's not like when it comes to building a championship team, roster turnover was never a thing. I mean, look at the Spurs teams.

They turned over around Duncan, Manu, and Tony Parker every two to three years. Like needing to hit in the draft is nothing new, just like they hit with Manu, hit with Tony Parker, just like they needed to hit with Kauai and Leonard to continue. things into the 2010s. You need to have success in the draft. So I think maybe those are amplified more, and it becomes even more important to win in the draft and have success there with your picks.

So I just think you just got to, if anything, maybe it, maybe it widens the skill gap between GMs. That's the only thought that I have. But I don't think dynasties and sustained success is necessarily dead. It just changes the equation in some ways. And maybe you have to make some tough decisions sooner. Like having to trade a big salary guy. Like for Denver, at some point, that might have to come down between Aaron Gordon or Michael Porter, Jr.

But we'll see down the line. But I don't think Dynasties are bad at all. Do you? I really, it's hard with this particular team to say, considering what they have the guys locked up, you know, for right now, that it feels like if they've got, you know, you chronicle with kind of what they've got, Gordon, for and how far out and what they've got, you know, they got what four starters locked up, right? Yeah. You got four starters locked up.

The whole core. Jamal, Yokic, Porter, and Gordon all have contracts. Yep. And they're probably not going anywhere in the next couple of years. And I know that we've talked a lot about all these other teams and what they've done. But Denver just destroyed everybody. I mean, it wasn't close. What did they go?

Like, I think they lost two, three games, something like that? They dropped one to Minnesota, right? And they swept the Lakers. They go six or five with Miami? I mean, they just, they pummeled everybody. They went five with Miami. Okay, so did they lose two games? They go 16 and two or whatever in the playoffs.

Five against Minnesota, six against the Suns, four against the four against the league, five against the heat. Okay, I'm sorry. So I forgot the two against the Sons. That's what I left out. Okay, still, what, 16 and four? Yeah.

They played 20 playoff games and they went 16 and four. Yeah. Yep. I mean, that nasty. You're not real close. You're not real close. You know? And I, and I like,

my, one of my season predictions is, I don't think the nuggets are going to miss Bruce Brown and Jeff Green all too much. You know, you and I had our conversation about Jalen Pickett after the drafts. We talked about the other guys. This was even before I ever started reporting a story on the Nuggets. We were talking about their rookie players. Julian Strother, this preseason dude, like he 20 points in his first game, 16 points

in his second, 23 in this third game. It's just preseason. But everything he's doing is super translatable. It's a continuation of the trajectory he was on in his three years at Gonzaga. Strather, Calvin Booth called him the offensive version of Christian Brown. I think that is spot on, spot on in the sense that he, I underranked him. He goes to number 29. He could end up being one of the immediate steals of the draft.

Booth, I believe, I put it in the article, said he had to mark 17th or something like that. So a borderline lottery pick I mean look dude I think this guy He's gonna fit right in And he can add a different type of element Compared to Bruce Brown They have other guys pick it

You know we talked about him back in summer league We'll see if Peyton Watson could figure things out You know Christian Brown Calvin Booth a bunch of guys in that organization Are super high on what he can be They have options And I think investing in that youth could be beneficial for them Both in the short term

And obviously the long term because that's what you need is some of these young guys to pop. Yeah. And they can also always be a waiver wire team too. Because once you're awesome, guys are willing to come and play for you. Especially you see what Yokic can do for a guy like Bruce Brown. Bruce Brown gets this huge payday with the Pacers. Even Jeff Green got paid more than I think some people were expecting from the Rockets.

So, I mean, I think if you want to get a better salary, maybe playing alongside the most Unselfish Superstar in the league is a way to do that. The NBA season is back and you can get in on all the buzzer beaters, ankle breakers and tomahawk jams with Fandul, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get $200 in bonus bets, guaranteed when you place your first $5 bet. If you've been thinking about joining Fandle,

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money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-rethdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook. Fandul.com. All right. Let's get to some games.

So you and I have both went or went to a game in person since we last spoke. And we both, coincidentally, saw the Miliwakei Algonquin for the Goodland bucks. I saw. Who did you see? I saw a campaign and Marshawn Bochamp and Pat Conantin. I saw a little Andre Jackson Jr. You saw a tie, Tai Washington. Saw a little Lindell Winnington action, Wigington.

I got that L.A., you know, spotlight, didn't I? Yeah, I got a little Tai Tai, Washington. I got a little Marquis Bolden and. some A.J. Green, not the receiver for the Bengals. Actually, a player for the Milwaukee Bucks. So the game I went to, I saw Memphis versus Milwaukee. No Janus, no Lillard, no Middleton. And then to depress me even more, I was like, all right, well, at least I'll get to see Drew Timmy.

Nope. I didn't even see Drew Timmy. Or shame. Oh, no. So anyways, I didn't get to see them play, so I can't say anything about the new look bucks. But you, in Los Angeles, got to see Damien Lillard and Janice Ante Cumpo in uniform.

I turned it on TV yesterday, and it's going to take a minute to adjust to Damian Lillard in Bucks Green when it's been over a decade seeing him in another jersey and so it was just it's a little jarring the first time you ever see somebody with their new team

out on the court and it becomes apparent to you like oh wow they really have Damian Lillard alongside Janice Hudson de Kumpo I think it looks good on them yes it's not weird like Chris Paul in the Warriors jersey that's strange.

It's not weird. All right, first impressions. Positive. Two thumbs up. I mean, during the game, someone sitting next to me, it was like, we never really see like a, wow type of play from those two. I don't think we saw that in the opener with Dame and Janus playing together in the preseason. But we did get plenty of those, hmm, nice moments.

Like Janus, single coverage, more open on the role. Or Dame, you know, or Dame, you know, or Dame, Janus, picking roles, you know, you know, forcing defense. to collapse into the paint like the Lakers did, and that opening up a wide open spot-up shooter. Yannis could hit off of the short roll. That's what we saw. Those little things that add up over the course of the season and add to high-value shot attempts.

And I think those moments will come where we get those, oh my goodness, Damien Lode and Yannis Hunter de Kumpur were playing on the same team together. We didn't quite get that yet. But Yana said it after the game. He's like, I've never felt so wide open. I think that seems pretty true pretty early on. Yeah, just, you know, you have this vision in your mind of like kind of what it's going to look like with both of them out on the court together.

And then just to see it and you're thinking about like, man, so many times when you're watching NBA games and you can watch you can be like, all right, who's supposed to score now? And it's like anytime either of them have the ball, you feel like they can score anytime they want to. and what a luxury to have those two. And they still, I mean, Middleton didn't play in that game either, right? Like, he wasn't out there. I never saw it. So, yeah, he didn't play. And so they've got their group.

What about on the Lakers side? Like, kind of what was the talk around there? Clearly, we're watching them without LeBron. Reeves didn't play. I know Vanderbilt didn't play. Even Gabe Vincent, a new acquisition from Miami. He didn't play. AD did play.

as did DeAngelo Russell, Ruey, Christian Wood, your guy was out there. What's kind of the scuttle butt around the arena about the Lakers? You're familiar with me and Chris Mannix having beef over Christian Wood, right? Oh, do. Yes.

He comments about that before the game. And then Christian Wood proceeded to go like one for six. Oh, no. That's tough. That's tough. So I still believe, I mean, this is, this is Christian Wood's last chance in my book.

Like, if it doesn't work out here with the Lakers, it's just not going to work anywhere. But ultimately, though, I mean, it's not about him. You saw that thing that was going around about him, like where everybody thought Cuban was talking about him. Oh, yeah. In that interview, it's like, some guys like weed too much. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like that. Yeah.

He's like, you know, it's okay to smoke weed, but like, I mean, all the time. He's like, we had a guy that swolee all the time. Like, oh, my God. It'd be funny if it was actually Dirk. Yeah. So anyways, what was the scuttle butt about the Lakers? Anything? I mean, the conversations with, like, people before the game were just about the amount of depth that they have

and how it feels like they have a ton of options coming off with their bench. Like, even the young guys, like Max Lewis didn't have a great game. But, you know, maybe he could slide into a role. Max Christie, you know, I really like. him as well. So it was more about that, but also still about AD. I mean, AD at this point, he's four of 10 on three pointers from behind the arc and preseason. Super teeny tiny sample size, but it's interesting. I mean, he's shot- Do you buy it? Do you buy that hole? He's going to try to get him to shoot a million? I mean, I don't know. I mean, Darvin Ham said he wants him to

shoot six per a game. In preseason, he shot three in 13 minutes, three and 14 minutes, two and 20, minutes, two and 19 minutes. So, like, maybe he'll be up to, like, four or five a game if he's playing 34, 35 minutes per game. And that would be a career high. His career high is 3.5, three point attempts per game. And that was the year that the Lakers won the championship. So I buy that he's going to shoot more.

Do I buy that he'll continue to be as successful at four of ten so far in preseason? I don't know. It seems to be prioritized. They're certainly talking it up. His shot does look fluid. It does look very good right now. But how much of that is just, you know, the bias that we feel watching the ball fall through the net

and not just the fact that it could be a teeny tiny sample. But this is a guy who has had some success for mid-range in his career, who's been an 80% free-throw shooter in his career. Maybe things are clicking for him. and if they are, that absolutely does change the way in which you could view that Lakers upside because we know their depth is good. It's as we've talked about. The questions are, can LeBron James stay healthy?

Can Anthony Davis stay healthy? Well, if AD also got better by shooting more threes, that's also another X factor in their favor. You know, the sneaky one I really like for them is Tareem Prince. I like Prince. He's nice. Yeah, I think it's good role player. Yeah. Right.

And then he has those random, like, I'm just going to make six threes tonight games. But I think a good role player and he plays hard as hell all the time. I cannot imagine that you were there for the fourth quarter because, oh, my goodness. I mean. I left. I left to beat the traffic at the end of the third. I had to grab. I had food.

You're doing. You're doing. Look, I want to apologize to all the listeners of the mismatch. Because now you are going to be without Kevin's analyses on Colin Castleton, Alex Fudge, Des Moie Hodge, Maxwell Lewis, Damien Ball. Yeah, all those guys. I like Castleton, but no, I didn't see anything from last site. Fudge, Alex Fudge, turn up.

All right. A couple other things that we've got to talk about on this episode. So it was not that long ago, Kevin. So at some point during the off season, we played our very famous game. That's true. That might be true. Or that's ridiculous.

You forget the name for a second? And you almost laughed me off the show. What happened? What did I laugh about? You almost laughed me off the show. Even though I'm just the host of that show, like a game show host, I'm not presenting all those statements necessarily as things I believe. But you took it that way. And you said, and I quote, that's ridiculous and left me off of this show when I said Ben Simmons could return to all-star form.

would you like to amend all these months later to that might be true? That might be true. This son of a bitch is diving on the floor. He's throwing no looks. Him and McKell Bridges are like running together. He's locking people up. He's flying. I mean, this was,

I'm watching these preseason highlights. I'm like, is this real? I tweeted out. I was like, this is more shocking than that Bigfoot video. Watching him diving on the floor in a preseason game. I'm like, who is this guy? Ben Simmons out of nowhere. I fadeaways.

He shot it with his offhand too. What is going on? What is going on? Are we seeing the Ben Simmons' race? I mean, he was left for dead. And now, like, obviously he's got a massive contract. It's going to be hard to live up to it. But either this dude has got, it's either, I'm going to be honest with you.

It's not like I've gone out of my way and watched a Nets preseason game. So we could be falling into amazing mixtape territory, right? or you watch the high school or college kid, and it's literally the 10 best place he's ever made in his life, and you didn't see everything else that happened. But his preseason mixtape is unbelievable. Ben Simmons right now. I kind of, just watching that, I kind of, I'm starting to believe.

That might be true. It might be true that he returns because the aggression on defense, there. We'll see how he holds up over the course of a full season when it comes to defending man to man. Can he continue to be a lockdown guy on ball for the full duration of the season? That's going to be the big question mark. When he was at his peak, is as good a defender as there is in the league. A hundred percent true. You pair him next to McKell Bridges. If you have those two guys together on defense, they could be such a formidable combination on the perimeter. Add in Nick, Nick Claxton, one of the best interior shot blockers, switch defenders in

the entire league. I had him on my all defensive second team last year. I thought he should have made it. You have those three guys, Claxton, Bridges, Simmons, if you get them together, Adam, Finney Smith and some of the other good guys that they have on their team, like, they could have a great defense. But Simmons, yeah, he definitely looks better. I hope he stays healthy. It would be a great story if he's able to return to form. I wish he switched shooting hands during his break. That's my only disappointment in all of this, but at least he hit the offhand lefty fade away. Before it all went to hell, really with that Atlanta series that year, that every once in a while,

it's more often than every once a while. The Kauai, Toronto, Philly game, they replay that a lot on NBA TV. or other channels. And like, I've just run across it like two times in the last year. And if you ever stop and watch it and you watch him guarding Kauai, you realize Kauai was getting 30, but he was doing it on 30-something shots. I mean, he is so good. He's so good.

Made it tough on him. And it's like, geez, man, what happened? Like, it just, it, just a couple disastrous years. But maybe it'll be able to, it'd be a cool story if he gets it all back. and he can become whatever player he was going to become before he became the butt of so many jokes. Because he doesn't look like a joke. He doesn't look like a joke, at least in the preseason.

That game, I just pulled it up. Kauai had 41 points on 39 shots. It's incredible. Ben Simmons played 42 minutes in that game. Obviously, off the top of our heads, we don't know how many possessions he had on Kauai, but I remember it being a lot of those plays. Yes.

Yeah. And he could always take the other team's best player. He could guard him. One through five, he could guard him. He's fantastic. Yeah, I mean, he, Ben Simmons, like, he's, I mean, like, you got to give him credit. Like, he was terrible defender at LSU. He was awful for a guy with his dimensions and size and quickness.

But it turns out it's just, he just didn't care about college. She just wasn't trying. But, like, when he became with the Sixers as a defensive player, he deserves a lot of credit for that. All right. How about his old team? Let's talk about what's going on with the Sixers. What is going on with Philly? James Hardin speaking for the first time. And I think the only thing he put to rest was the question of, is he going to throw on a fat suit? Is he going to sit down, you know, crisscross applesauce on the court until they trade him and napalm this thing? Or is he going to, is he going to go out

there and play. And it kind of, I think if you're a, if you're a fan of the franchise, I think in this debacle of a situation, best case scenario was him basically saying, look, I'm going to play. I'm going to play hard. I'm going to try to win. I like Nick Nurse. I hate Darry's guts. And I'm never going to like him.

And we're never going to be cool. And that's the end of that. I can't stand this guy. But I am going to play. And so that's all, I mean, look, it's still all just going to be hanging out there no matter what. And maybe there will come a time. It's going to go one or two ways, right? Either he plays out of his mind so that it enables him to get traded, even though there are very few suitors.

And those suitors do not necessarily have, it appears yet, what Darrell wants in return for James. but seems like he likes the coach. It seems like he's going to be accountable to Joe L. Embed and go out there and try to be a teammate and a player for that team. And I think that's at least some, I guess that's a little positive direction, considering we were at the point where it's Darryl Morey's a liar

and I'll never play for a Darryl Morey team again. Like he is at least going to do that. He is going to play for him. He is going to play for that team. I don't know. What do you think? There was a report that he might play in their final preseason game too. So, I mean, we'll see there if he ends up doing that and how he looks in live action.

You know what would be the craziest that I just opined for the first time the other day thinking about it with one of my buddies? I was like, what if they got rid of Daryl? I mean, they could. What if James won that? That would be the ultimate player. Right? Like in the end, he wins that deal. I mean, I think if they get rid of Daryl,

it would be the type of thing that it's because Embed wants out. Yeah. Like if things completely implode, then they get rid of Daryl Mory. But at this point, if they chose Harden over Daryl, I'd be kind of surprised. I think it's just about the Sixers trying to get the best they can for him.

Because it's not like it's just purely Mori's decision not to pay him a full max contract. or exactly what he wants. That's an ownership decision, too. It's a collective decision. So clearly, it's not just Daryl that doesn't want to pay James Hardin the money that he wants.

So, I mean, we'll see how this plays out, man. Like, it's going to be fascinating because they're, like, they're right on the cusp. But what can they actually end up getting for James Hardin? Like, the Clippers haven't reportedly made Terrence Mann yet available for James Hardin. Like, would you put Terrence Man on the table right now? Are we?

What are we talking about? Like, yes, right? Yeah, you would. Every once in a while, there's these guys that it's like, I'm not, we're not moving him. Yeah. You know what? No matter what, we're not moving him. But like the phrasing, I forget who reported it, but they said the clippers are Keith Pompeii of the Philadelphia Inquirer.

I would assume this is informed by the Philadelphia side of things. He said that they've made Terrence man untouchable. untouchable come on like that's absurd if that's true the clippers have made him untouchable

he's not untouchable he's terence man I really like Terrence man I would want Terrence man if I'm the Sixers I think Terrence man would be a great fit next to Tyrese

Maxie and Joella Bede but untouchable come on man I'll never understand like every once or while there's those kind of guys though there are he's good he's a good player that's why the sixers want him he's good right would you give him up if you're the clippers though or would you continue to play hard ball and stretch this out and see if you can get hard and on

a severe discount what would you do you would you would what did we just see with the heat though they wouldn't put hamé hakez reportedly on the table for damien lord they end up losing him to a rival, then Drew Holiday lose to another rival. You just asked me if I put Terrence man on the table and the answer is yes. Okay, so you would put him on the table. Okay.

Yes. Okay. What are we doing here? Well, regardless, what I just said, though, and I hate James Harding. But that's the thing that, it's like you don't even like James Hardin. You'd be willing to do that.

I think the clipper should just put Terrence man in an offer and get this done and go get James Hardin so he can have a full season with Kauai and Paul George. unless, unless, Chris, they really aren't all that enthusiastic about going all in with Kawhi Leonard and Paul George. Because if for the Clippers, there's also that other path. Or if you're the Clippers, you can say, you know what?

We went all in on these guys and it was worth a shot. We had some good runs. It's just they couldn't manage to stay healthy. We're going to pull the plug and reshape this roster around a younger team to open up our new arena. I'm of the opinion. They're in no man's land right now. So they need to pick a side. That's what I'm saying.

They need to pick a side. They're in a crossroads. They can go all in and lean all the way in and decide to build around Kauai and Paul George and try to do this thing. Or they can move on from one or both of those guys. I go to the complete other way. I go and I grab Hardin. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But so what?

I mean, honestly, who are they ahead of? Like, not any of the best four. or five teams, you wouldn't be picking them. I agree. So you're a no man's land. I had them eighth on my power rankings. And that. And how many,

how many West teams in front of them? Let's see. I had the Grizzlies one, Warriors, two, Lakers, three, sons,

four, and Nuggets five. So I had five teams ahead of the clippers. And that might be generous. Right. Like eight really might be. Like, it's hard to buy them at all.

You could easily make the argument that some of these young teams, like the Kings might have an even better season. You could argue that they could be better. Like what if the Thunder are as good as Bill Simmons think they will be? Yeah. Right? To me, that's when you do just take the swing and try to throw together three stars and see what happened.

So you would, so I'm asking because like you've always been the hardened hater in my eyes. Yeah, but that team is every year, you know, riddled by injury. But you don't think there's any logic to the clippers just blowing it up? Not right now. Not today. No, because they got these two. That's what I'm saying. I agree.

Look, but that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. If you wait and you don't put Terrence man in the offer and you don't offer everything you can, you retain that path to say, you know what? Let's just pull the plug in and reset things.

If you do it now, then you're all the way in. You already gave up all your picks. Your picks are gone. I don't know. The Paul George thing anyway. You ain't got shit in the front. future anyway. So just go and get him. You got all three of them on a contract year,

all one extensions, right? They're all playing to try to make more money. And those are like $200 million players. And he can throw them all three together. But they have it a run and see. They have their 27, 28, 29, and 30. They can trade two of those, the 28 and the 30. So like they they do have picks in the distant future. But if you're going to trade one or two of those and compromise like even more of your future for James Hardin who I still think I still think Hardin's one of the 30 best guys in the NBA. Does he put you over the top?

I mean, he could just bounce. Kauai could leave. Paul George could leave. These guys are all free agents coming up. That's a lot to gamble on. So I see why the clippers would want to wait. I get it. I do get it because it retains that path to pull the plug.

And they might be my next blow it up team, Chris. We'll see. It's been a while since I've had one of those teams I feel strongly about. All right. Rank them one through three for the upcoming season. I will give you for championship odds. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying you've got a blank team, okay?

This upcoming season, I will give you James Hardin, Ben Simmons, or Zion Williamson. Oh, God. So I'm building a team from scratch. You got no players. You're the expansion team. You get this season. And their salaries are included.

So Hardin's a free agent next summer. Just get in the rules before I make my choices here. Sure. Zion 1. Ben Simmons 2. James Hardin 3. Oh, my. Well, Hardin's a free agent.

in next year. I've made it eight years. You hate the guy, too. After eight years. But he's a free agent. He just ranked him by in Ben Seven. He's a free agent. It took me eight years.

He's a creation in July. We finally come together. He's a free agent coming out. Shut up. Fine. Let's give him an extension. Then you'll still, it's not going to make any different.

How would you rank them? Oh, my God. How would you stack them up? Zion won for you? Zion last for you probably. No, Zion's one. Okay, then Hardin two, Ben Simmons, three for you. Again, they're all crapshoots.

Yeah, right? That's why I did it. But, yes, I mean, Hardin's less of a crapshoot. Hardin was really good last year. Yeah, well, he's, look, those other two, I don't trust Simmons or Hardin when we're getting to the playoffs. I don't trust any of them. Oh, no.

Zion, obviously, I can't trust that he would even be there for the playoffs. But Simmons, too, considering his injuries. But I would rather take the chance that if I did have him, I've got this be a myth that no one can deal with. And he has, I was shocked. He has played in the preseason. Shock. The Pelicans do not look good, though. No.

Well, and they just lost Nazi Marshall. They already lost Trey Murphy. Trey Murphy's so freaking good, dude. I think, you know, they got this, like, neck and back thing going with Herb. Alvarado got hurt in the offseason. Like, they just, man, they got a snake bit, too. And I heard my buddy Tim McMahon saying that, do you know that McCollum, Ingram, and Zion have played less than 200 minutes together?

Nuts. that's crazy nuts I mean it's a 48 minute game that is the they have played less together than the equivalent of four games so we don't even know like obviously the numbers in those games

are good but it's less than 200 minutes that we have seen McCollum, Ingraham, and Zion on the court at the same time and now I guess hopefully at least it seems like to start the season we'll see it but they're not exactly spaced out that well around those guys as you mentioned the the murphy thing's a killer too

yeah trey murphy's awesome one of the best young players in the game yeah uh so anyways yeah having and i am i am very very hopeful that this can be the year that zion williamson is able to play like 60 games a couple other things i do want to mention it just a Another guy, you know, we've spent a lot of time talking about the young players, most exclusively Chet and Wembe, and how this preseason has just been unbelievable in getting people excited for the upcoming year. One other guy that I want to mention that you tweeted about since we last spoke is Javari, who was absolutely awesome when we saw him in Summer League. Javari Smith, Jr. for what it's first. He was in the game. You remember the crazy game winner?

Oh, that was unbelievable. Unbelievable in Vegas. And the place was slammed to the gills because it was the game right before Wemby. That was so cool. Interestingly enough, when that happened, guess who was right by me? And this was wild because he was just like, they were playing Charlotte, right? I believe they're playing Charlotte. because right by me, like, you know how you, like, you could kind of stand in that end zone or whatever?

No security, nothing. Friggin' Jay Cole. Oh, wow. He's just standing there. I turned to my left. I said, oh, my God. Jay Cole, I feel like he was, like, spawning everywhere. I saw him at a restaurant.

He was just hanging out. And Jay Cole was everywhere for some reason. But, I mean, it's weird. Like, see somebody that famous, like, not walking around with a bunch of security or anything was just odd. He was just standing there like a regular dude. That's why it caught me so off guard. But anyway, Jabari Smith had that unbelievable game. And then this crazy game winner.

And we were so hyped about him because that was a mess of a rookie year for him. And that was a mess of a year for the Rockets. But now they certainly have some real structure there. they're going to have to get past the Dylan Brooks hitting people in the dick, which I know about all too well. But they've experienced it. No, he hasn't hit me in the dick, but I've seen it before. I never seen Donovan Mitchell so mad.

He did it to die of Mitchell last year, unlike ESPN. Anyways, Jabari, fantastic in this preseason. And I think that while we've spent so much time talking about these young freakazzoids, these seven footers that can kind of do everything, this guy at his best knocking down threes and the shot looks good, going to the basket, being a defensive menace. A little mid-range on offense too occasionally. He's kind of one that can get, you know, kind of get lost in the mix amongst the frecos that we have all over the league now. But it's another special one that might be, quote, future of basketball type ready to blow up this year. It's going to be fascinating to see the way it breaks out with those top three.

There's so much conversation up until the day of the draft. Who's number one? Paulo Bancaro, he goes first. And then we get Chad Holmgren and Jabari Smith. How does it play out with those three guys with who ends up the best of the draft class? Did Houston thinking they were going to get Paulo Bancaro? the third pick, turn into a blessing in disguise with Jabari Smith? Good.

We'll see. I mean, we'll see. It's still very, very early to say. But I'm super impressed with Smith's development, and I hope it continues to sustain because the main thing with him is, is that jumper. Like, he had a great year in Auburn shooting threes. Last year, it was down to 30%. He was not a great shooter in high school.

Auburn felt like it could have been an outlier a year, but he shot the heck out of it at Summer League. he's shooting the heck out of it now in preseason. If that sustains, it just opens up everything else for him on offense with all the other skills that he has as a baseline player. And, well, in fairness, watching him, I'm a huge Jabari fan. I loved him in the draft, as everybody knows. Horrible guards at Auburn and a disaster. Oh, so bad.

And no guard play last year for Houston. It's just all the best. I know. I mean, they're running Kevin Porter Jr. out there, point guard. It's the opposite now, right? No, you got Van Lee. I'm in Thompson. I mean, you got a lot of guys who can handle the ball and make the smart decisions on the Rockets at this point.

And now, I mean, imagine if you have that guy as someone that can actually, like, set the table for him, you know, I mean, they're playing who's got the ball. Okay, it's my turn to go make a play, you know, last year. And the other thing is that other big Shen Gung makes plays too. Oh yeah, I love Schengen. So, I mean, you're just getting some more guys around there that can get you the ball in better spots to score. Because I thought he did, you know, look,

he did all that Auburn stuff despite his guard situation, which was one of the worst I've ever seen. And one of the main reason why they lost. Yes, for sure. The reason. When you got a guy that, a guy that awesome in college.

Like, anyways, watching guys like that and watching these young players, especially that we're getting to see a bunch of the preseason, has gotten me super excited. Because I do think that it's very clear there's an edict that we're going to see a lot more of all the players that we want to see in this upcoming year. And if we ever doubted it with the,

well, are they really going to punish anybody, whatever? that whole Joe Dumar's monologue since we last spoke about everybody has come to an agreement and you've got the Players Association on our side and the league at our side and I think everybody had probably come to Jesus meeting and said, hey guys, we got a media rights deal coming up and if everybody wants to, you know, have the same kind of spoils that we've been able to enjoy and even more, then this is the one thing that we're, we are going to be, we've got to take that off the table when we go to negotiate. It can't be, hey, do we get any kind of, you know, guarantee or at least partial guarantee

on what our product's going to look like if I'm, you know, because all the big boys are going to try to get a piece. NBC will get back in the mix, Amazon, Apple, you know, and you got a chance to really, with the complements of cable and streaming, really get a massive media deal, both nationally and locally, for everybody, but they got to get the product right. And so I'm hopeful. I guess it'll be a week from when most people are listening to this Tuesday, we're going to be watching actual regular season basketball games. Dude, I'm excited. I think this is going to be a great year for the NBA.

and I mean opening night we got lakers nuggets that's going to be fun the animosity between those teams and sons and warriors next tuesday uh katie versus stephen curry going to be awesome uh then like the then the next night it's everybody else is playing um i mean we're on our way man the one one one team that we didn't mention chris i just want to bring them up because you saw them the other night granted it was on the road miami Tyler Hero looking developed Bam at a bio he took and he didn't miss the three but you know Miami

wouldn't it be something else if Tyler Hero ended up taking a leave this year after they don't they don't get Damian Bullard I got something for you okay you go that we didn't get to

you ready for you ready for the top 10 scores in the preseason oh God give them Tyler Hero is number one, but he is tied. He's averaging 26 points a game in his two games that he's played. He is tied with a man that has played three games. Jonathan Cominga, 26 points per game.

Wow. Cominga and Hero. Then Victor Wimbabeyama, then Desmond Bain, then Peyton Pritchard, then Kyle Kuzma, then Tyrese Maxie, Julian Strother, the aforementioned. Bam out of bio Anfony Simons There you go Here's your top 10 preseason scores

We'll see if that is indicative of anything When the season comes about We shall see How about the Kaminga? Hey, comminga and hero A Kaminga I mean granted some of it is Against like some weaker lineups

But The progress looks good I mean that's what you want Isn't that all you want to see? It's just progress. And that's exactly what you're getting. But very interesting to see some of those names on there. Like Pritchard continuing what he did to end last regular season with Boston.

Maybe he'll end up being like an important six man for them. And Tyler Hero, after a summer of being involved in trade talks, maybe he's coming back with a bigger chip on his shoulder than he ever has before. It's possible. Can't rule it out. We'll see how these guys carry it over. of the season, but I'm excited for somebody who's kind of... What if Tyler

Hero? Everges more points in game than Dame. Oh, my God. That would be so funny. I mean, even if, even if, like, Dame is actually the better player, but if, like, just the numbers or more for Tyler Hero would be hilarious. It's so funny.

And Wembe, man, we're going to be talking about him a lot this season. You think? Yeah, a lot of Wemby. Yeah. We'll be back on Thursday and we will have our semi-bold predictions for the upcoming year, which is always fun to do before the season begins. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez as always. And Kevin, I'll talk to you on Thursday. Have a good week. Looking forward to being back to twice a week.

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