The Mismatch - Don’t Count Out Hawks Just Yet, the Lakers' Brodie Trade Decision, and a Surprise Guest

Episode Date: January 25, 2022

Verno and KOC begin the show discussing the up-and-down season from Trae Young and the Atlanta Hawks (02:31). They also discuss the importance of De'Andre Hunter. The Bulls' injury woes continue, as Alex Caruso is out again after a hard foul from Grayson Allen. The guys discuss Allen’s hard foul before going into Ayo Dosunmu’s surprise rookie season (10:27). All signs point to Frank Vogel staying, but the guys are more interested in discussing the rumor of a John Wall–for–Russell Westbrook swap (15:13). The guys debate what moves the Celtics can make that don’t include Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown (30:45). They are last joined by 'NBA on TNT' host Adam Lefkoe (36:12). They discuss working on set with Shaq, the situation with Ben Simmons, thoughts on James Harden if he gets traded to the 76ers, and Adam's football knowledge. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Guest: Adam Lefkoe Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The ringer gambling show is here to help you place your bets on the biggest sports around the world. Join NFL analyst Warren Sharp on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. Each week, they'll cover everything from spreads, game totals, and parlays to player props, futures, post-game reactions, and more. Check out the ringer gambling show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Midsmatch. I'm Chris Vernon. And join as he does every Tuesday from the wringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Bonner, Kevin O'Bon.

Tomber, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Clymouth, Kevin O'Clazarian. Kevin! The O'Conert came before the O'Connor on that one, Chris. I liked it. It was a different change of face. It's really off guard. I love it. I'm ready to go down.

I'm wide awake. That was my coffee. All right. Well, we are about to enter silly season with the trade deadline, not too far away. And it seems like people love off-season news. love trade news. And so that's what's going to be coming fast and heavy over the course of the next couple of weeks. That's all the clicks right now for sure. But in terms of the basketball that is going on, what we do have is an Eastern conference that has gotten absolutely ridiculous.

You know, we come on here twice a week and we talk about what's going on with all of these teams. right now, as of our recording today, you have Miami in first place, Brooklyn and Chicago, a half game back, and Philadelphia, who's at the center of an immense amount of discussion, is the six seed, they're two and a half back, and you go all the way down to eight, and Boston, they're six and a half out of first place in the Eastern Conference. And so it's crazy that every time we come on here, you know, it's hard to talk about where teams are within the standings or who's having a great season and who's not having a great season because within a week's time, everything changes. And maybe the team that's gotten attention recently, at least over the last week, is one of the teams that was in that Eastern Finals, which as of today is, as of today, is a lot of, outside of the play-in, and that's Atlanta. They've gotten hot over the last week of the season, or over the last week.

Trey Young just won Eastern Conference Player of the Week. They made that one deal with Reddish. Their name is in other possible deals. Where are you at on Atlanta? Do you think that they get this back together and that their first 46 games? we're going to look back and it was a very bad first half of the season and they were able to crank it up the second half of the season or do you think that this is just a little blip

and unless they make some real changes, they're going to have some problems. Well, I mean, right now we're seeing, obviously, Lynn is on a four-game win streak. Some guys are in and out of the lineup right now. And it's positive that the team's winning and they've won against some, you know, pretty good teams. They beat Charlotte by Eddie, Minnesota, Milwaukee.

Keith. There's nothing wrong with that. That's pretty good. This isn't the bottom of the barrel. But I think with Atlanta right now, where am I at? I think like a lot of people, you know, watching the NBA right now, it's like, well, is this team going to even look like this, you know, in two weeks after the trade deadline? Once again, there have been multiple other reports about how Atlanta is one of the teams, you know, most hotly pursuing Ben Simmons. Jake Fisher from Bleacher Report had in a report this morning that they are unwilling to take on Tobias Harris, back, though. Sacramento is willing to take Tobias Harris back in return, including Ben Simmons. So that's something to consider there. But with Atlanta, you know, they're also going after Jeremy Grant as well from the Pistons. So how much is this team going to look like the team that we might see post-deadline? That's where I'm at with them in terms of what we're

seeing right now. But for what we're seeing right now, this does look like a team that is finding themselves a little bit. It's only a four-game sample size, and there's been more meh than there's been very good this season. But it's hard, it's hard still not to be encouraged by what the pieces of this team are on paper. And if you're able to insert a Simmons or a grant on top of this and shuffle some of the pieces around, I don't know. I mean, like I still think there's something there once they consolidate. They have to consolidate.

That's the key. It's just interesting. You know, I watch this and I see what's taking place over the last four games. And we saw what happened to them last year in the absence of, DeAndre Hunter. And DeAndre Hunter is not some kind of massive star that gets a tremendous amount of attention. But you look at these last four games and he takes 17 shots. He takes 16 shots. He takes 11 shots. He takes 11 shots. He scores 20, 22, 13, 20. He's the third leading scorer on their team. And you do wonder, does this just underscore the extreme importance of that guy being in the

lineup because there seems to be some correlation. I mean, when you are beat, I mean, Milwaukee, Minnesota, who has been playing great basketball recently, at Miami and at Charlotte, I mean, that's four really good wins. It is. And those are four games where this guy has really performed. And, you know, they lost him from November 12th to January 12th. and since he has come back, much, much better results for them,

much better results for them. And so it kind of, it dawns on me, like, talk about their personnel all you want. This guy, this guy makes just such a massive, massive difference for them. No, exactly, Chris.

And I think with DeAndre Hunter, he presents a different look for this Hawks team, though, because the way they utilize him on offense is you'll see him run some pick and roll. You'll see him post up. And at 6-8, that's just not, you know, the type of piece that they had before with his absence. And I mean, I think in a baseline, he provides the fundamentals of what you need around Trey Young.

Three-point shooting off the catch, attacking closeouts, playing hard on defense. Like, at a baseline, that's what you need around Trey to succeed at the highest level, and that's what Hunter could provide. But the bonus is when he's fed opportunities to run pick and roll, when he's fed opportunities to post up against some mismatches for that matter, maybe after a switch against a smaller guy, that's when he can give that offense different wrinkles in the half court. And they've been utilizing him a lot in the pick and roll. He's looked pretty good.

He looks smooth. He's thrown up floaters, able to hit pull-ups, get to the basket. He looks like a more complete version of the guy that we've seen the last couple years and are 24 years old. Who knows how good he could get? Yeah.

Who knows how good he can get? And that's all on the offense event. He's probably most effective on the defense event, simply because he can cover up so much, you know? He can cover up so much. And there are many times where they'll put him on the best scorer on the other team or that he will draw the assignment against the opposing point card. And he's a problem, you know, because he's got really good length.

He's very versatile defender. And their defense just went to absolute hell this year. Right? And so now, you know, I'm kind of. I'm kind of believing in this short little blip. I am with him back. I think he is a fantastic player, and I think that it's shown.

Sometimes it's just the wrong guy is out for a team, and it makes everything else look worse. And there's part of me that just thinks, man, he is just what he provides is there's such a massive drop-off to whatever has to fill-it-all-y-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all-all- in that role, especially on the defensive end, that, you know, maybe it could turn their season around because it's been pretty bleak so far. They got a lot of the, oh, God, they were a flash in the pants stuff, and Tray's gotten

cracking and team that's four really good wins in a row. You know, they might have turned around their season. Yeah, no doubt about it. And I think for this team, you're right with Hunter and his defensive ability, getting more guys like that explains why they're also having those talks for Ben Simmons or Jeremy Grant. I mean, do you think it's worth it for

Atlanta to, you know, trade a valuable young guy and John Collins plus, I don't know, three firsts to get back Simmons and maybe Tobias Harris with his, you know, 35 plus million dollar contract? They ain't taken on Harris. Like that's it. Well, okay, well then, all right, so no Harris. What about

just Simmons? Yeah, they, that's been out there. Do you like that fit? Oh, I think Ben Simmons would, I think it would be the absolute funniest of all the scenarios that could take place. What is it about Elon says the most entertaining outcome is the most likely outcome? That is the most entertaining outcome because the fact that it all ended against that team, if that's the team that trades for him, I mean, I can't take the irony. I can't take it.

I can't take it. Yeah, the most entertaining outcome is the most likely. You know what else would be entertaining, though? The Sixers just not trading Ben Simmons. That would be entertaining. Or the James Hardin one. There's a lot of that. Not for Sixers fans, it wouldn't.

No, no. I mean, it might be for people viewing from the outside, but for Sixers fans, it wouldn't be that entertaining at all. There's a lot of entertaining outcomes. It's all matter of perception, though. We are starting to get some players back. Yes, sir. Zach Levine back in the fold for the Bulls.

And my God, did they need it because losing another critical piece in Caruso, you've got the, you've got Lanzo being out. And the Caruso thing just sucks. I got hit up with a lot of people. They were like, oh, yeah, you said Grayson Allen's a good guy. And Bob, like I never talked about Grayson Allen on the court, right? all I told everybody was the difference between the guy off the court and on the court is extreme. I think he absolutely should have gotten more than one game.

One game was surprising. I mean, the pole down and then like the other arm swipe in. Even if it wasn't intentional, it was reckless. It was highly reckless. And people will disagree with this, but I don't give a crap. I do think that penalty in some way should fit the consequences of what you did. I think this is a process versus result, and I'm typically, hey, the results matter. And if a guy breaks his freaking risk because of your foul, to me, it should be judged more severely than if the guy just falls and gets up.

Like, I do think that it matters if a guy gets really hurt. You can just say, well, the foul's the foul, and if you wouldn't have gotten a hurt, it wouldn't have been a big deal. But he did get hurt. So it is a big deal. You know what I mean? The guy's out for eight weeks. Now, I don't know what the true punishment should be for that.

But I do think if a guy has to get wrist surgery and is out for two months, that has to be judged differently than if it's just. a foul and he didn't break his wrist and is out for two months. Listen, Grayson Allen isn't the Zodiac killer here. But what he did do was deserving of more than one game, I'd say. You know, like more than one. Because just how reckless it was. Yeah.

But ultimately now Chicago is in a position where Iodo Sunmu, who, you know, very much love him as a rookie, 24 points last sign against OKC. anytime that dude as a rookie gets opportunities to handle the ball and score the ball and facilitate the dudes just putting up

like 20 and 7 or 20 and 8 it's crazy and he did it again last night. It's like the third time in the last couple of weeks he's been given that opportunity to handle the ball and he's flourishing. It's crazy to watch that without Caruso. I saw him in the preseason and

I came on here and talked about him. I loved him. And they nailed that thing. They nailed that pick. That's one of those. He's one of those that we're all going to go back and look like, all right, what didn't we see? What do we miss? And I'm talking about anybody that looks at the draft, right?

Because there weren't a lot of people out there going, hey, I assume we should be taken way, way, way higher than this, right? I think that there were a lot of people, you know, who said I.O. should be at least a first round pick. Like, I had him 31st on my board, and I should have had him higher. 31 was way too low, clearly, based off his performance this year. He fits into the Jalen Brunson class, doesn't he? You know? Yeah, you know, upper classmen who just seems to have a game where it's like, yeah, this guy's going to be a good player. It's just a matter of how good he's going to be.

Right. But, yeah, I mean, he's, I mean, the fact he's doing what he's doing already. I mean, like I said, he hit 21 points a couple weeks ago against Boston, and he had a string of games, a great game against Cleveland. last night 24 against O KC anytime he's getting opportunities he's coming through anytime anytime and I think for the Bulls here like you never want to see Caruso out again

you never want to see ball out but one thing like the COVID in December the replacement players era provided for the NBA never mind the 10 days but like younger guys getting chances to play like your teams have found out more about their rosters and for the bulls, maybe they're a little bit deeper than they appeared on the surface because of guys like those soon moos getting opportunity for sure.

Great name. I.O. Dissoumoo is an amazing name. I.O. And super cool story of a kid that went to Illinois, you know, getting drafted and succeeding for the Bulls. I like it. Yeah. It's amazing.

Anthony Davis, looks like we're going to see him play basketball again this week. Maybe as soon as tonight. Yes, sir. Listed as probable. Now, a couple things. On Friday, we said, hey, what are the chances Frank Vogel is still around by the next time we record a show? Since we last spoke, Dave McMenaman went out of sports center, and he said, I am told, for better or for worse, Frank Vogel is safe, and that Frank Vogel is going to end the season as the Lakers coach.

also interestingly enough Ramona Shelburne has an article about the Lakers and Russell Westbrook and the big highlight out of that the quote is there is no plan B regarding the Westbrook LeBron Davis you know this is their collection of talent they're going to try to make moves on the periphery I know you reported on that which we'll get to but that this is this is what they're with, and I did find it interesting because we do kind of lose sight as the season goes on. There was this moment where I'm reading through it, and it mentioned that LeBron, Westbrook, and Davis have shared the court for 15 games. And I thought the number was higher than that. You know what I mean?

But because of injury, they have only been. in a game playing together 15 times, which is pretty insane to think about. In only 291 minutes, too. That's it. That's it. They've shared the court together. So have we all, I'll ask you. Yeah, like these other guys have to be better.

We talked about last week they got to get Davis back. But have we all jumped the gun on what that can be because of our preconceived notions of what it will be? when the truth is they put less than 300 minutes together, and that's not necessarily a fair sample size to determine what is the ceiling for this or what is the outcome for this? No, I mean, I think with this team,

I said it on pause before. When Anthony Davis comes back, and if AD is himself, that's when things could fall at the place. LeBron at the five, LeBron playing center next to Stanley Johnson and all that. That becomes more of an occasional thing, a situational lineup, rather than,

what you do all the time. And assuming AD is his full self, and he's flourishing on the court on both ends, then it comes down to whether Russ is able to evolve and adapt. And I think with Russ, the quote we talked about last week with him, you know, saying to woe, it's on me to find the best version of myself for this team. I mean, he's on his way to doing that.

You'd hope. And over the course of time, a big change like that only can occur when you're performing next to Anthony Davis. like because he's had to do more without AD out there. Now we're going to see what it's going to look like with Anthony Davis, LeBron James, and Russell Westbrook, you'd hope for an extended period of time. And I think for Lakers fans, despite some of the losing recently,

I was wrong about them when I said, like, this will be the last time they fall under 500. They are under 500 today. But now we're at a point with them. I still think despite some of the losing this past month, there have been some positive indicators, namely LeBron James playing out of his mind. And he's also been playing out of his mind.

Yeah, it's just sensational. He himself said he's in one of the best scoring zones of his entire career. Doesn't it seem like it? Well, I think he's second in the league now, isn't he? Yeah. I think he's second in the league in scoring. One of the hallmark traits of LeBron's greatness throughout his entire career, it's his ability to become whatever his team needs.

And right now his team needs scoring, he's become that. They needed a center. He's become that. Now his guys are back. Yeah. The only player in the league that is averaging more points than LeBron is Kevin Duran, and it's 29.3 to LeBron's 29. So that could change it a day.

And B'd coming fast, though, Chris, at 28.7, he is coming fast for the number one spot. He is coming fast. Hey, let's touch on that whole, there is no plan B because we've got to. two kind of different things going on here, which is in one quarter a Westbrook Wall deal that has been

thrown around now. I talked about this months ago as you are so good. I mean, so good, deal on that. Because wouldn't it be hilarious and if it's like there's nobody to trade him for, like

look, I'm not some genius. year. But when on one side we're covering stories and people say there's nobody to trade them for and on another side, the people are covering stories and they say there's nobody to trade them for then just find the two guys that can't be traded for anybody and then you can trade them to each other because they're the only they got traded for each other one time. You can do it again. Now they're saying that the price of doing business there is the Lakers giving up a pick too in order to make that deal happen. Which one do you buy more?

And I know you wrote about this. There is no plan B. This is what we're rocking with. There is no alternative or there is an alternative. And it's this John Wall deal and might just give that a go. The only reason why I'm intrigued by this is the clutch sports connection. The Lakers, the Rockets for that matter, and definitely Clutch. What they want is aligned.

Clutch represents LeBron James and Anthony Davis. They also represent John Wall. They want John Wall to fall into a situation that's the best for him. If they feel John Wall physically isn't able to be a better option than Russell Westbrook in L.A., they would not want to send him to the Lakers because that would be disastrous for his career. It could be the last stop he ever makes if it fails there. If it just doesn't work, they want to put him in the best position to succeed and really, you know, restore his value and who he is and his name. So I think for the Lakers and for Clutch, they're going to be able to have those discussions together, back channeling about, well, is John Wall healthy?

Like, is he able to be a better option than Russell Westberg? They'll have more intel than anybody about Wall is my point. And so I think for the Lakers, if it comes on February 10th, after a couple of weeks of seeing LeBron, A.D. and Russell Westbrook together, if at that point they fail intel on Wall is good. If they feel like they're getting sign off from LeBron and AD, then it's intriguing. At that point, the deal becomes intriguing. Wall is a better spot-up shooter than Russell Westbrook. So he's a better fit in that sense. He's a better cutter, more attentive cutter than Westbrook. He's less of a, I mean, how do I say it about Russell Westbrook? on defense. Russ makes some plays on defense, but he's not a stabilizer. Wall has proven to be a better, more reliable defender over the years on defense. So theoretically, on paper, if Wall is said to be healthy, athletically looks good, on paper, it could be a better fit. That's the only reason I'm intrigued. Think about this, too.

Well, this is the other intriguing part about this, being thrown out there, okay? because Varkstein's been reporting on this. Stein's been on top of it. This is the other one, because the most important note in all of it is Lakers include what Houston wants them to include. Houston gets him and then people are thinking, oh, and then Russell Westbrook in Houston, it already says they would swiftly buy him out. So now you're talking about Westbrook being a quasi-free agent.

New York? Who might want him? Who knows? I mean, the idea that this guy is just available and he gets to pick his team? Yep, that would be crazy. Can you imagine that? Wouldn't it be something else? And by the way, like the report Stein had, and I had this in my article on the ringer

on Monday, too, this thought. It's like, Stein said that Houston would want the 2027 Lakers first with Russell Westbrook to give them John Wall. Okay, so that's one side of it. I don't know who we're hearing that from, who Stein's hearing that from, it doesn't matter. For the Lakers here, well, I would say, well, I also want Eric Gordon.

I want Eric Gordon back, too. And, like, you could add Horton Tucker and get back Eric Gordon. And I think, like, that, to me, is a deal that's a lot more appealing on paper for obviously the Lakers side. Houston might be able to do better where they wouldn't want to do that.

Eric Gordon is having a great season. He should have some teams that are pursuing him. But I haven't heard a lot about her in Gordon. I don't. And there's a story. There's a story I read yesterday. And I don't know if this is just trying to drive the value up of Gordon or what. But it was basically saying the reporting was, yeah, he is shooting from three. They like that he is a great example as a consummate professional for their young team. While his contract was looked at as, you know, maybe. maybe something that could weight down your salad cap, but not a good one. Now it looks much, much, much, much better given what he could bring to the table

and that Houston is not interested in moving Eric Gordon. And I'm thinking of myself, oh my gosh. Like, I hope this is them just trying to drive up the value and be able to get, you know, the maximum amount in return.

Because... That was Kelly Athletics who reported that one. Yeah, yeah. Kelly Iko, and it would have been, I hope that's just driving up the value. That's what I'd say. Because, you know, Eric Gordon, he's being the concept of a professional,

but he could help a good team. And he certainly, he could move the needle for somebody. Just as well he brings in the spacing and the fact that he is shooting the shit out of the ball, he could really help somebody. And instead, you just kind of languish on a team that doesn't have any

intent on winning right now. I hope that that's just, you know, getting the value up for him, right? Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think with a guy like Eric Gordon, he has two years left on his deal. Right. 19.6 million next season, then a team option for 21 million a year following that 20, 23, 24 season.

So I think for Houston right now, there is some logic in holding on to him in the sense that you'd have this guy 33 years old entering the off season making $20 million. Maybe you have more flexibility for bigger deals and a more significant return as part of something else if you wait until the summer. So I think there's some logic in it unless the offer is good enough to take now. But I'd be surprised if teams aren't going after Gordon. But as I said, people I talk to around the NBA, like you, you, don't hear Eric Gordon's name. You hear a bunch of guys.

You hear Jeremy Grant. You hear like Jamichael Green. Like I'm hearing names like that. I'm hearing Joe Ingalls. I'm hearing Dinwiddie. I'm hearing Jalen Smith. I'm not hearing Eric Gordon. It's not a name that comes up all that often.

Yeah. And I guess we'll see. I do think he could help somebody for sure. Other names that have come up as this stuff is now, going to get, you know, at a fever pitch was those Celtics guys. Al Horford, his name's been out there already. Shruder, Richardson. Yeah, Richardson's the name to watch too.

Yeah, and the Horford thing is, if I was a Celtics fan, that would piss me off. Just because, like, you brought him in as a win now thing. You gave up, what, 16, I think it was in the draft. in order to get him. And that turned out to be your guy. You know, you can be rooting for Shen Gung, right? Isn't that 16 last year? Isn't that it?

Sounds pretty good player to root for. Yeah, I think you went 16. So, I mean, would you rather have... Would you rather have Al Horford right now? Or did you rather have Shengoon going forward with that group of guys. And so... Give me Schengun. Look, here's what I'm saying.

Not a great start. for for big brand because if you're if you're like look at those names that they're trying to get rid of. Bro, that's all the decisions you just made.

Is Al Orford, Schroeder and Richardson? Like, what are we doing here? And so now you know, that's the task. It's trying to find something that fits a little better around Tatum and Brown.

Tatum obviously had his best game in a long. time the other night with the 51. And as the story goes, our buddy Jared Weiss reported that they want to try to clear the way to for some of their younger guys. Because, you know, you come to terms with the fact that our younger guys don't play much,

therefore they have no value to anybody. You can't get a King's ransom. You can't get any ransom for anybody, right? You're not floating knee-smith out there and getting good value or Langford or Pritchard or any of those guys that have been drafted over the course of the last couple of years. And so one of the ideas is, hey, want to get some of our younger guys on the court, we've got to clear these veterans out of the way because if we don't, our coach is just going to play these

veterans. That's what coaches do. Isn't this what, you know, the big boss, Bill Simmons has been hammering for a long time. Now, right or wrong about knee Smith, all Bill, Bill's bottom, you know, the bottom line is like, he's like, give this guy some consistent minutes. And it seems like Brad Stevens is like, hmm, oh, we need a, we need a, we need a, game managing point guard who can hit threes. Do we have that on our roster? Huh, Peyton Pritchard, 23 years old. Let's see what happens when we give him 25 minutes a night for

three weeks straight. I think that's the direction the Celtics should be going this year because you know, say what you want about some of these young guys on how good they might become. We just don't know what they're like when they're giving an opportunity consistently. And I think on paper, Pritcher could provide some of what the Celtics need. D. Smith, on paper, can provide some of the 3D qualities that the Celtics need. So if you're able to move off of Richardson, move off of N.S. Cantor Freedom. Whoever it might be off that Ben Schroeder

that's eaten up, Minas, Marcus Smart in the starting lineup for that matter. I think it could be a great benefit to Boston. Yeah. And do you think that you think they can get anything back for or for Richardson or Schroeder? Anything that like... More playing time.

More for younger guys. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe you can flip somebody like, I don't know, maybe do something with Utah. Maybe Utah, a team that's in need of defense could use a Josh Richardson or a Marcus Smart. Maybe something like that. You could move off and then there in terms of what you get back. Naturally, salary needs to come back.

Is that Joe Ingalls? Is he just taking up more playing time? Maybe you want to keep Joe Ingalls. Maybe that's something you're happy to have at your Boston. But, I mean, I don't know, man. I still think, I know, I know, like I'm typically like I lean. half glass full, but I still see Tatum score 51 points the other night

against Washington, and I see Brown score 50 points a couple weeks ago. And I just like I look at this team, I'm like, yeah, around Tatum and Brown, there's a lot that needs to change, but they still have a 25 year old and Jaylen Browner gets better every year. They still have a 23 year old

than Jason Tatum, who despite some of his, you know, really, you know, a step back this year in some regards, still is capable of great heights in the NBA. And I'm like, well, it's just about getting everything else around these guys, right? That's why, if you're Stevens, I do think regardless of return here, just, just like reshuffle the deck around them and see what it looks like around Tatum and Brown with a different cast of characters, whether it's

Pritchard, whether it's a guy that gets back in a trade, whether it's Nees Smith, whether it's a little bit more minutes for Grant Williams, whatever, just shuffle the deck. Because with Tatum and Brown, I still think you can have something special. Let me ask you about another team that has been outstanding recently, and that is Dallas, because I read the following. Dallas already has our full roster heading into next season, and they're right at the projected $145 million luxury tax when accounting for their first round pick next year. Jaylen Brunton and Dorian Finney Smith are set to become restricted free agents this offseason and are extension eligible throughout the rest of this season.

Bringing back just one of these players will put them over the luxury tax. This predicament could lead them to some tough decisions. decisions this month. The Mavericks could look to offload several players under contract for next season if they want to bring back both Brunton and Anthony Smith without increasing the payroll too much. So the question will become, are you willing to, you know, be a luxury tax team and just say, all right, fine. We're not losing these guys. We're going to be a luxury tax team, which possible. But if not, it is something to keep an eye on. My opinion would be just from watching that team, especially recently, you figure out.

out the rest, but I would 100% keep both of those guys. 100%. I would try to extend both of them. And then I'll figure it out. If I got to clear out other roster guys, that I clear out other roster guys. It'll be interesting to see what some of these teams do that have money decisions

coming up. I mean, Utah, for that matter as well, with the luxury tax, what are they going to do? We just had multiple guys say how they're not a contender right now. With Dallas, how do you become a contender? I mean, Is Finney Smith, Brunson?

I mean, are those the pieces that get you to become a contender? Like, is that the way you trade up? And, like, it's a part of a consolidation. I don't know, man. I mean, I think right now it's unclear for Dallas with what they're going to do. I'm not sure what the move is for them right now. Like, how much value does Jalen Brunson have? I wonder, considering his upcoming restricted free agent status for a team that might be interested in a point guard in him.

We'll see. I mean, there was some stuff from a last week when I had Knicks. Knicks make some sense. No, no, there's already the stuff out there. Well, but also James Edwards from the Athletic, last week when I had Nick Henkel on, he co-hosts a podcast with Edwards. At the athletic, Edwards put in there,

that Brunson is a guy that maybe would interest Detroit. Nick and I talked about that a little bit. I think Detroit, that would be a good fit next to Cade. I don't know, though, but I also love the fitness, Luca. So why trade them? No, I'm a Brunson guy. Growing them together. too, man. He's good. I'm a Brunton guy. I don't think his, I don't think his ceiling is,

you know, Van Vleet-esque, but it is reminiscent. I swear to God, it's reminiscent to me when I watch them. In terms of just a guy that I kind of always, you know, he thought of as a backup, but then you realize he's way better than a backup. And yeah, he was an older guy coming out of college, but sometimes it even takes them a little bit of time. And I do like that fit with Luca. I do. And he's a dog. He is. I like Bronson, man. I would, I'd keep him in the fault. 100%. I'd keep him in the fault alongside, uh, alongside Luca, because I do think it's a good fit. Um, and I think he's, I think he's really good player. Um, we are going to get into all of this madness that has gone on regarding the Ben Simmons, James Hardin, et cetera, rumors.

And we're going to do that in conjunction with having on Adam Lefco. He is a Philly guy. He is also the host of Inside the NBA on Tuesday nights, which is going to debut tonight on TNT. And I know he is thrilled about that. So we'll get to Lefco after these words. All right, we're back and we are joined by Adam Lefco. He is going to be the host on TNT when you are watching tonight.

Season debut. Pam, pan, bam, pan, bam. Yeah. You have to be thrilled about this. It is finally time for the season debut of Tuesday night. I've just, I've been listening, like, I've been listening to your podcast. I've been listening to every podcast. I watch every game and I haven't had an outlet.

And now, like the only thing I'm nervous about is that I went back and I forgot that from last season to this season, the desk got so much smaller. Because now it's on Lexi Glass. And Shaq used to hit me so much. And I forgot that that's now a thing again. So that's the only thing that I'm worried about and me going off the rails about Ben Simmons. But other than that, I'm so. excited, man. We have waited to talk about Ben Simmons until you came on. But before we get to that, tell us what you got tonight. Well, the fact that, like, I listened to your pod the other day

and Kevin was like, do you think Ben could come back? And I had the same reaction as you. I was like, what? I was like, this cannot still be a discussion. But then Kevin turned it and was like, he's a loser. And I was like, wow. Because Kevin's the kind of guy. And Kevin, I love you. I don't think I've ever met you. But Kevin's the kind of guy that like even the worst player, he's like, hey, he's still an NBA player. But for him to go off on Ben, I was like, wow, I think Ben's officially worn out as welcome. Tonight, I hope we get AD back, and I would love to see that. We will undoubtedly have Kyrie discussions because he's not playing at home. We have Luca versus Steph what I'm excited about. We're introducing a few new things, one of which is

like a real world confessional booth, which I'm super excited about. But don't tell Shaq, because the way that I like to have our show run with all of our amazing producers is I don't like Shaq to be in on it. Because then he starts, like, acting. I want him to be like, wait, why wasn't I invited?

So I'm super excited. Is that something you figured out with Shaq over the course of time where he's better just improvving rather than planning stuff out? There are certain people that are better when they have, have a rundown, and there are certain people that naturally have the instinct of reaction. And Shaq is one of those people. And I think when he knows he's the kind of guy we're in the

pregame show, he'll ruin it. Like, he can't keep a secret. So I, he's, I don't like to, I don't like to tell anybody anything because I think that TV is better that way. I learned that from Ernie. But Shaq's definitely one of those people. Is anything different about y'all's show this year. We're back to the Tuesday set, which I'm excited about. Like, Chris, I didn't have a podcast anymore and I didn't have a TV show. So like, I filled this up with, I don't know, 74 ideas. Like 75 ideas for 75 MBA. And so it's just every week we're going to, like, I want to do pranks. I just, the way I look at it, is what I always loved about the MBA is that the podcast, the media, it all feels like a big

family. And what I love about our Tuesday show is it feels like the show of record for that night. And so I think it is our responsibility to capture everything that's been happening and whether it's the memes or the controversies or the rumors and the fun and boil it all down. And so I don't want to give too much away, but like, dude, we started having extra idea meetings because I'm like bursting right now. I'm fired up to watch you guys. I'm excited. All right.

Let's get into it. You're a Philly guy. Do you read all the same stuff we do? I will tell you, Lefko, on this edition of the podcast, we haven't talked about it at all. But since we last recorded, all this James Hardin stuff has come out.

Now you've got, you know, Atlanta and a John Collins deal. Then you got Sacramento. and maybe they would take on Tobias Harris deal. Like it does feel like it's in Charlotte. Like it's everywhere. I think the hardened stuff has to be posturing, right? Like when all of this first started happening, Mori, that's when he said,

I'm not trading him unless it's for stars. And it was sort of like, I know that he must have been in negotiations. And everybody was like, I want him for nothing. And so he was like, I have to go so hard the other way to get some hand back in these discussions. And I feel like by saying we're okay by keeping them after the trade deadline and I might as well wait for Hardin, I think it puts more pressure on the kings of the world and all those other teams, I guess. Now, I mean, I remember when the Wizards were 10 and three and everybody was like, this could work. And now I'm looking over there. I'm like,

what does Bradley Beale want to be there for? Like, come on, man. Like, you would be so good with M.B. If Lillard wasn't hurt, I'd be very curious where those discussions would be with how Portland's playing. I heard, Chris, I loved your take about how Deerrin Fox, it would just all the analytic people would have to defend Mori but also hate it. I thought that was funny. But I would love a Fox heel. The problem, when you talk to somebody that's a Sixers fan will take anybody. Like anybody is better than our current situation because Embedity, feels like the MVP in the back of all of our minds.

We're worried about how much time he actually has left. We don't want to talk about it, but that's the big conversation. So getting anything, KOC is what I want, but I'm just, I'm exhausted, Kevin. I'm tired. What do you think, yeah? I mean, I understand why you're exhausted, but I, but I, and I also understand the logic and just taking whatever is the best deal on February 10th. I get it because Joe Al-Labeed is might be,

he might end up the MVP. What he's doing this last month is just absolutely unbelievable. I mean, like personally, like I'm younger than you guys, but it's like he's one of the best bigs I've ever seen like,

have we ever seen a big man like Joelle Labede with his range of skills, like what he can do not only on the post, but bringing the ball up the floor and taking pull-up jumpers. Like have we ever seen a big like, like, it's like,

Elijah one is like the, you know, he's the comp. But Elijah one couldn't do all of this either. I heard the no dunks guys talking about all the different 90s centers that he's brought into his game. Olajuwon's back to the basket, shack dribbling up the floor, Patrick Ewan's mid-range game. And I mean, there was a time where when M.B. would shoot the three, the city of Philadelphia would collectively go, why? And then we would, then we watched Chuck say, get in the block. What are you doing?

And now, I mean, I feel like he's hitting one or two a game and their backbreaker threes. I think he's had over 30 and 17 of the last 24 games. And you look out on the floor with him and you're like, Tobias ain't the guy. Like, what are we relying on Furcon Korkma's? This can't be it. This can't be it. Well, I think I feel like there is a difference between that's where the break is. And maybe I've read the fan base wrong between Moray and a frustrated fan base,

which is he comes out on the radio and I feel like he presented Embed is so great that we don't need to do something and the fan base feels actually the opposite which is Embed is so great we have to do something to take advantage of this greatness

because you just never know you never know right Friday against the Clippers he goes for 40 and they blow like a 20 point lead because there's nobody else that can do anything, you know? And we've been waiting for Thibel to get a three-pointer now for three years, and that hasn't really developed. But yeah, I think you also have to understand that this is a very fractured fan base when it comes to age because the process split the fan base in two, where the older generation said, and I know Kevin knows about this, and I know you do too,

But like the older generation still really questions Mori. Everybody is waiting because we don't put a lot of the roster mistakes on him. It really was on the Calangelo's. Like all of the moves they made and the trades and could they have Tatum, it was Brian Calangelo. So Mori misses a lot. The way in which Simmons goes down, that will be the verdict for Mori. For Philadelphia fans, what they get for them, how it turns into. but using the Philadelphia fan base by going on local sports radio is really the issue.

Because when it happens on 97-5 or WIP, it's like bait in the water, man. So until it happens, the only thing that all Philadelphia can agree on is we do not like Ben Simmons anymore. And we don't want to hear about it. Do you want Hardin? I mean, if I could get Hardin now, I think, yes, I would love. I love James Hart. You know, like, I don't, I don't care that he's arguing with the refs about inconsistent calls. Like, him and Embed together would be incredible.

I just, I look at the NBA this season. We got three to five more weeks of KD being out. Kyrie is not playing home games. The Bucks, while I think that they're going to the finals, are still kind of coming together right now. And I, the fact that they, we don't know about Brooke Lopez, I think, is really big. The heater scary. but the West, like, yeah, I think the Suns and the Warriors are really good, but overall it feels like a very open year. And I don't know how many more open years you want a waste of in Beads Pride.

And so just betting on it next year, I don't know. And I think Hardin likes living in Brooklyn. Well, the one thing that we did have in Jake Fisher on Bleacher Report, he had a report out on Tuesday morning that said with Hardin that he's fully committed right now to Brooklyn. there's some stuff in there where he's not happy with Steve Nash's fluid rotations he likes more of hot hand closing lineups. Jake put

in there that he hasn't been happy with Kyrie Irving's part-time playing status and he hasn't enjoyed living in Brooklyn compared to Houston because of the taxes, because of the climate. It's some really specific stuff in there.

I hate it. Really specific stuff. And he said to be clear, there's been no trade requests. However, we have two weeks to go here. And with Hardin, very clearly, it's been since before the season when he didn't sign the extension. We're seeing it now with the reports that are coming out that he's got to test free agency. If you're Brooklyn, there has to be at least a little part of you that's nervous about him wanting to leave. If you're Brooklyn, there's got to also be a part of you. And I thought about this last night. There's got to be part of you that's like, well, maybe, what if we did trade James Hardin for Ben Simmons in the package?

that the Sixers were offering Houston, could that actually be better for us? Because two reasons. Well, because he's Ben Simmons. You need a defensive player. You need a guy who's 610 can defend multiple positions. Play make, fill the Blake Griffin roll.

Blake can't do it anymore. Ben Simmons can be a better version. And also, and this is like the if, if the New York vaccine mandate changes for state workers that would allow Kyrie Irving to play full time, it will be expiring in Connecticut. Other states will see those mandates expire as well.

maybe New York by April, May, June could also see it expire. So if you're over the Nets, you get a billionaire owner and Josai, you're going to, you know what's happening before everybody else does. If you're Brooklyn, there's got to at least be a little bit of logic in the deal like that. I'm just throwing that out there. All right. Before you answer that, Lefco, you got to at least acknowledge, you got to tell Jay's hard and look, bro, Philadelphia is cold as shit too.

So. Pretty sure the taxes are high there as well. You ain't warming. You ain't warming up in Philly, my guy. You didn't know it was cold up there. I can't even tell you. Here I was saying, I guess so. And then as KOC was listing all the reasons, I got so excited.

So having lived now in Philadelphia and in Brooklyn, because that's where I live right now, the thing about New York is people leave you alone in New York because there's like a rule in New York. because there's like a rule in New York, you don't stop famous people on the street. Like you might like snap a phone. Like I was at a restaurant. It was at the top of restoration hardware. They got like an amazing restaurant, which is crazy.

Any other city you're like what? And Rihanna was there. And you know how many people stopped her? Zero. Because in New York, you just go, I feel satisfied that I was in the same establishment as Rihanna. Philadelphia, you're not going to have any price. like Philadelphia, like everybody's surrounding you.

It's not, it's a different level, but it's brotherly love. My gosh. Isn't that what they say, brotherly love? The taxes are a little bit better in Philadelphia. Like nothing compared to Houston or Florida or Vegas. Like that's where you want to go if you want to stay great. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

You're talking to a guy in L.A. Come on. Let's go. KFC makes five bucks. a pod now. You're the only one right now that's getting about 60% of the debt. What are they spending it on in California? That's a good question.

Wow. Well, look, we, we, I have heard this before that I have heard that Ben Simmons is a better fit for the nets than Kyrie, but I hadn't heard that about Hardin. But like, yeah, like Ben and Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving and him just being the attack dog that you send out on any. anybody and you throw them out on Janus or you throw them out on Jimmy Butler or wherever you won and you have to think if you're Ben this is the ego trip that you get you get to play with the stars and now you're a member of a real big three and guess what you don't have a shoot

because nobody wants Kevin Durant to not shoot so it could be and the spotlight is so dimmed you know what I mean like you're you're one of the you're the third guy yes you know I'm saying you're the third guy. You're not one or two. So in that scenario, it would likely be Ben, Thibel, and two first round picks. Yes. In that case, like the way it would work,

like you couldn't do like four pick swaps because Brooklyn can't swap picks. So it would have to be two first round picks. I would do that in an instant. And I wonder with the Brooklyn side of things, though, like Ben Simmons could be their attack dog, like you said. He could also be their Draymond on offense. Like, he could be that with Tyrie Irving.

Do we know? Is Ben Vaxed? I don't know. Oh, I don't know either. That's a good question. Just because, like, the one team that needs to know is the Nets. But I had heard that, I mean, Mayor Eric Adams is all about, I mean, his first press conference was, like, we need to get people back to work.

And we need to get kids back in school. So I know that if he's leaning either way on these mandates, it's towards opening it up. But, man, the whole show, I'm just going to be sitting there being like, how does Hardin look on the six years? It's fun to think about. Crazy things have happened in the NBA. So we'll see. Yeah. And by the way, you mentioned during the course of that, you're like, I live in Brooklyn.

I thought you moved to Atlanta. Isn't the show in Atlanta? So I lived in Atlanta last year because of all the travel mandates and stuff. I wouldn't be able to leave. So they just put me up for six months. And I was an Atlanta resident. and then I got married and then we came back

and then I was like let me get an Airbnb in a cool part of town and I didn't realize that I got it in an area where there's a lot of shootings and there was great

photos of the Airbnb but I wouldn't know heaven exactly I got there and I went oh no this is the cool spot on the street we're like I'm in the car

and two kids rolled up on bikes and went, man, this house doesn't look like any other house here. And I was like, and I got back and I told Shaq and Shaq yelled at me. He was like, hey, you know you need to live in Alpharetta. You can't be doing all this. And I was like, he's like, you're going to endanger your beautiful wife. And I was like, okay. So then I was like, we should go back.

And so now I live in Brooklyn. Oh, man. I needed it. Like, I know, I know, you know, I know Bernos loyal to the soil. So now we're back in Brooklyn. And so you just, so you just fly there once a week to do the show, huh? Yeah, so I flew, I fly in on Mondays, and I'll fly out Wednesdays. You don't have the Airbnb anymore, right?

No. I am at the four seasons Atlanta. It is very, very well. What a freaking. What a flex. Kevin, I got a question. Can you ever talk about anything nice with Verdo or does he always attack you? Like, I feel like even living in L.A., Vernon's like, oh, look at you in the big city.

Yeah. It's more than that, too, right? Chris, about L.A.? It's like I saw Vernon at a card show. And he was like, he's like, I know these cards are below what you normally spend. And I was like, we're just walking around. Oh, hold on now, Kevin. Let's just get this out on the table.

Walked around, running to Lefco. Finally, you know, we run into each other. And I said, Lefco. And he's like, dude, I just traded for this. It was like a $25,000, Dwayne Waite. I'm not kidding. It was a limited logo out of 75 rookie year, perfect autograph. It is not 25.

I wish it was 25. I traded a lot of cards. for it. But yeah, Kevin O'Connor, it was pretty sweet. What I had bought, Kevin, it was one of those where it was like, I was ashamed to show the Curry rookie I had bought.

Because this card was so valuable. And I'm like, really? Really, bro? Like, I got, I'm not even going to show you what I bought. Pull it, pull it out. He's brought it to Atlanta? Oh, my God. Do you have it with you? No. But I

And so I'm doing some advising for this company all, and I love them. And I told them, I said, can you send me like six figure cards of Shaq and Wade and whatever guests we have on, Candace or whatever. And I just want them holding them. And so I'm working on. I'm going to try and get it. But I got to pull it up really quick. Oh, my goodness. They got like Pikachu on the front page next to LeBron and Brett Fav. I'm on that. Yes. I have an account. Wait, is KOC in the cards, Verno? I dabbled a little bit last year. But I haven't done much investing in cards in 2022 or late 2021. P.S. you're a full-time NBA guy now, but you were doing NFL stuff for so long. Oh, wow.

Oh, wow. That's the EMA from a game or in Jersey. And then look at that auto. See, the little known fact about Dwayne, Wade is that after his rookie year, he changed his autograph to this weird three thing. But this is when it was the original. All right, thank you for letting me flex.

Thank you to let me flex. Look at him. Hey, before we get out of here, before you became Adam Lefcoe TNTNBA guy, you made your bones be an NFL guy and two of your guys are Mahomes and Kelsey. Yes. Okay, so I was texting with them on Saturday.

About the game. So you know what? I'll just, I'll say it right now. I think everybody grows up and they see somebody doing a job they love and they want to emulate them. And I think a lot of people assume that I grew up watching Ernie. And he's definitely one of mine. But the guy that I really studied was Ahmad Rashad. Because I went, he's a reporter, but he gets to smoke cigars and hang out with Michael Jordan.

And everyone's cool with. And so I think. I think we've all, you guys have definitely, like, I came up traditional, like, local markets in Nebraska and Kentucky. You got, Chris, you kind of came up through, I mean, Kevin came up through the internet. Verno was like local and Memphis and built it. And I think, you know, we all had to make that decision a few years ago, which is like, am I a journalist or am I somebody that like creates? And I think that I just realized I met all these athletes and I was like, I don't want to have a conversation with them. And then. think that I can report what we're going to talk about. I don't want to be chef or I don't want to be woge. Like, there's some information that I can use what I'm talking about stuff. Like when Mahomes heard his foot before the box game, like I knew how he actually felt and I could talk about that on my pod.

But I just, I, it's more fun this way. And so I like it. But Mahomes and Kelsey, like we were texting on Saturday. And me and Mahomes will get very granular. Like we're talking about how bad the Bengals O line is. I'm talking about stunts and stuff. And then Kelsey always chiming and be like, hey, really good football talk, guys. This is boring as hell.

Like that's always his take. He's always like, what are we going to do when the season's over? But, man, Josh Allen was special. But Patrick Mahomes, Patrick Mahomes has been a Hall of Famer after his first two seasons. When he won an MVP and then the Super Bowl, he was already a Hall of Famer. Now his first four years of playing, he goes four championship games. He's on maybe now he might go to his third Super Bowl. He's never played in a way playoff game.

His stats can be compared to anybody. And he does everything better than anybody. Because Aaron Rogers for a long time was the best thrower of the football I've seen. Strength, arm angle, power, all of that. Mahomes can do it all. And he's faster. and he's cooler under pressure. The thing about Mahomes is that he has energy.

Like Jah has that energy to him too, that he makes a play in the whole arena all runs. And you go, you can't stop this. Mahomes is... I don't care what you think about him as a football player. You actually know the guy. How is he different than what I perceive him to be? I think he, I think that a lot of people look at him

as this backyard football gunslinger, when in reality, I think he has like a photographic memory because his ability to like remember defenses and his understanding of like where people are on the field is so criminally underrated. But you know, when I go to his wedding in March, I'll get some more information for you.

Did you? Hey, did you see that clip of them talking about the last play. Oh. The 44 yarder that got him in a field goal range. I didn't see that clip either.

So he says, okay, so he says that they talk about it and that Kelsey comes up to him and says, whatever the route tree is, I'm not running it. And he goes,

I'm running to the open space. And so he runs, he comes up to the side. And then they've got a microphone down there. And before he hikes it, he goes, do it,

Kels, do it. Wow. And they hike, It gives me chills. Think about it. And he runs up that seam and he hits him right in that seat. That is 100% backyard football. Like that was not playing, play.

I learned a lot when I think Kelsey went on the Manning cast. And Peyton was saying, Kelsey, do you just run around because so many of your routes aren't routes. And he goes, he's because I think he played hockey and basketball, he has. has such a good awareness of spacing and their routes are backyard routes and I think I'm not going to, I'll get a little granular

Tigerich Hill opens up all of that because you run him deep and the defense goes oh crap and then it's Kelsey just finding the gaps but they're special man. They got that mind meld that like Wade that Wade LeBron that they just know where the other

person is at all time. What time are you on to know? 7 o'clock Eastern, 4 o'clock for KOC and we will be on TV. People won't realize we're there from like 7 to like 1.30, but

I get there at 2. So I'm like, I'm just cranking coffees at like 10 p.m. Wow. No, no, no. No, that's, I'm excited. I'm not complaining at all. What a hard day. Like you're going to like bricks. I texted

Verno after Friday's pod because I said, you know, I said, Bruno, I could definitely tell that you're letting KOC finish his points and you're not interrupting. And then he just started yelling at you. And I was like, never. Shut up, man. So good. That's what it makes it great. We can yell at each other, Chris, right?

And just move forward. That's for sure. And the same thing with y'all on your TNT show. It's a very hard thing to find, which is chemistry and people that don't take themselves so seriously that they. that they get mad about people that can yell at each other productively that's true respect and that's true love you guys have it uh i don't want to give credit to any other show because screw them but you guys have it we have it man i just want to say that like i really appreciate you guys because uh you keep me informed throughout the season you make it fun uh and i love your guys chemistry it's one of my favorite show so keep kicking

ass. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Adam. Thank you for coming on, brother. All right, man. Adam left go. You can watch him and Candace Parker and Shaq and Dwayne and the crew tonight on TNT, starting at 7 o'clock Eastern. Kevin, I will talk to you on Friday. Thanks to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. And we'll see you Friday. When it's grim, be the grim reaper.