The Mismatch - Drafting the Magic’s Future With Kevin Clark and Steve Ceruti | The Void

Episode Date: June 18, 2022

Hey it’s Kevin, on today’s podcast I spoke with The Ringer’s resident Magic fans, Kevin Clark and Steve Ceruti. With the draft less than a week away, we’re diving deep into the Orlando Magic and their future. The fit for all the options at no. 1, the roster structure, and why the Magic’s narrative will soon change. We get into this and so much more. (04:31) - Who Ceruti and Clark would choose no. 1 (16:55) - Would there be disappointment if the guy you want isn’t chosen? (26:52) - On Franz Wagner and Jalen Suggs (33:03) - Are you hopeful for the future? (39:49) - Can the Rockets put together a godfather offer? Host: Kevin O'Connor Guests: Kevin Clark and Steve Ceruti Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, everybody? This is Logan Murdoch, and I'm here with my co-host for the Real Ones podcast on the Ringer NBA show, The Incomparable, the Realist, the man who invented the pregame Red Bull Snow Cone, Raja Bell. Thank you, Logan. You're far too kind, sir. Did you know that the Ringer NBA show feed now has six podcasts a week? Six.

Every Sunday, Big Was has a different guest from the NBA world on weekends with Was. And you can find me and Rajah every Monday and Thursday on Real Ones where we cover all the most interesting NBA storylines. On Tuesdays, Jay Kyle Mann and Jonathan Charks discuss up-and-coming talent in college basketball and the NBA. And on Wednesdays, you can hear Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney, and Big Was discuss any and everything going on in the world of hoops. Man, and on Friday, Chris Ryan and Syrac so he asked the big questions on the answer.

So head over to the Ringer NBA show's Spotify page and take a listen. There's so much to dive into. And while you're there, just go ahead and give us a follow too. Thank you for listening to The Void. Today we have a special Saturday edition of the show talking with Kevin Clark and Steve Surudy, both Orlando Magic fans from the ringer, because the magic have a tough decision to make on draft night next Thursday. Could be Jabari Smith, could be Chad Holmgren. They have a lot of options there. So I wanted to hear from two hardcore fans of the Magic with how they're feeling about the draft and what they think the magic should do.

We debated that decision, got into a whole lot else. This is a fun conversation. Hope you enjoyed it and have a great rest of your weekend. What's up Kevin? Serruti, how are you guys doing? Dude, I'm so amped for this. Me too. This is like bringing Kevin I's text chain to life.

So I appreciate you giving us the opportunity to do this. There's a lot of BS in there, but a lot of important discussions to be had as well. This is like the highlight of my week. I was just like wandering around my apartment clapping like Steve Ballmer. I'm so excited to talk about this. I've not been this excited about the magic in a long time. I mean, how could you? I mean, how many years of losing has it been?

When's the last time you were happy as a magic fan, Ken? Well, I think Surudy and our got in the same memory. We won game one of two playoff series. Please don't erase that accomplishment on the road and at Toronto in the bubble against Milwaukee. I mean, we reached

highs that some franchises only dream of. Against both eventual champions, by the way, I believe, too. Yeah, I mean, that's tied for I'd say tied for second best team in the NBA if you think about it. That's a great point. And those are some... Champions only.

champions only. To be the man, you got to beat the man. And going through the magic is the right of passions for champions. And those magic teams had, they still had Fultz, right? Faults, of course, still on the team. Who else is still on the team? Terrence Ross. Terrence Ross.

Well, DJ Augustin had a, he had a game winner, which was, I remember I was on the car watching that game too. It was actually kind of a sneaky weird team for a while. Bouch. Oh, it was a sticky weird team for a while. It's been a weird team for a decade. Well, I said they were bad for a day. decade. Those teams were weird. They weren't good, but they were at least weird. But the problem was, too,

that was kind of like when Boots started get exposed to because you're like, oh, he made an all-star game and you're like, can he be the guy, right? And then just, you know, love him, but two duds and back-to-back playoff series, and that's probably why I get shipped to Chicago. And we're very happy about Wendell Carter Jr. Yeah, exactly. Like, he got exposed, and then we just absolutely

fleece the Bulls. And now, for the last two years, you guys have been bad, not, you know, average bad. Those were 10, 40, 30 win teams with Orlando. And now you guys are 21 wins in 2021. And then 22 wins in 2022. And you land the number one pick.

Second worst record in basketball. One of the worst teams in the NBA. First year, head coach, a bunch of young guys. But it's good sometimes to be bad. And now you have the number one pick. And now you're in a position where it feels like that the magic have a really nice young roster, right? Franz Valkner, successful as a rookie.

Jaylon Suggs last year. up and down, but you're, you know, it's still early. You still feel encouraged about him, among others on the roster. Now there's an opportunity with the number one pick to add someone who could be a franchise changer to bring you back to the postseason with consistency, like past number one picks by the magic. So, Rudy, who is your preference at number one for Orlando as a fan? I've been team Chet for a while since basically they got the pick.

I like Chet even going back to Gonzaga. I understand there's like the weirdness of the body thing. But I asked, I mean, I've asked a couple guys about this. I'm interested in what you think, KOC. But like, if he had like a couple inches wider shoulders or he had 10 to 15 more pounds on him, like are we even having a discussion about this? And, you know, I just think he does so many different things. And I'm to the point, too, where if they took Jabari and I think, I still kind of think

Chabari, he's definitely the betting favorite. And I still probably say he's the guy they're going to take if I had a pick right now. And I wouldn't be bummed with that. But I just kind of feel like if you're, if you have the number one pick, I wouldn't play it safe, especially in this draft. Like, I think Chet is the, is the generational guy in this draft. Sure, he has more bus potential than maybe, you know, out of the other two top, you know, top two guys. I mean, Paulo, you know, who knows, he's almost like a dis, he's not even in this discussion,

which is kind of strange because a lot of people still think he's the best player in the draft. But I just like all of the weird things that Chet does. And maybe I'll be proved horrifically wrong in five years or so, but I'm not that worried about the body. He's incredibly tough. He is a guy who has a great competitive spirit. He doesn't back down from challenges. He basically takes on any single role that's thrown at him and is happy to do that. So this whole thing about like he's frail and too small.

I mean, sure, his body frame is a little bit weird. He kind of has the hunchback situation. But his game is so versatile and he has the right attitude to kind of attack and overcome those deficiencies that I'm less scared about it. So I'm team chat and I've been team chat since basically day one. And Kevin, are you also team chat? Yeah, so I came around this morning. I started watching some film seriously in the last, let's say, 24 hours because I'm doing this pod, a couple other podcasts.

And so I just wanted to say, let's just lock this in because I've done a couple of hits in the past where I've said, well, I can see that both sides. My Jabari hesitation was that he played the college that I went to University of Miami in the tournament, and he disappeared. And he got bullied by a bunch of guys who were going to be playing in Turkey in two years. years. I love that team, but like, I'm not seeing a lot of lottery picks on there. And I felt like as soon as they went at Jabari, Jabari stopped asserting himself. I sent a text to Sarudian Rusillo this morning. And I was like, can you just, can you guys just send me like a couple games where Jabari, I'm going to use the phrase, had that dog in him. I'm on dog watch. I'm looking for a little dog. And Rusillo gave me a couple of things, but I didn't see enough to where it, it differentiates between Chet and him. It, it, it, it, it, it differentiates between Chet and him. If Jabari and Bill has talked about Jabari's competitiveness, I'm sure it's there,

but it's not enough for me to overlook what Chet brings. The defensive floor is extremely high. The blocks, the instincts, the timing, the rhythm. The only real weakness is perimeter defense, which, I mean, I think that's just always going to be a problem if you're that big. And it wasn't a complete disaster. You could hold guys up, but he moves smoothly. He didn't get put on skates in the pick and roll.

And the offense was good enough. So I don't, I'm, I'm with Suruti. The whole point of this, I'm tired of B plus guys. I'm tired of B minus guys. The whole point of this, the only way is a franchise that we get out of the last decade is a Janus level superstar who changes the entire culture. Now we got to, that roster is ready if we get an absolute superstar because there's a lot of, you know, what, as I said, B level players, role players.

The roster has been for a few years role players in search of a superstar and I understand the concerns about the frame but he's going to get bigger. He's like that's just how life works. Like he's not going to be 195 pounds forever. Get him in an NBA weight room. He's got the instincts.

I just love chat. So it seems like you guys you know, after years of mediocrity you just want to draft for the upside. Like you like Jabari Smith is more of the high floor player in the sense that 6 foot 10 he's definitely going to be a shot maker.

There's no doubt about his three-point shooting ability. That's undeniable. He can do a little bit one or two dribble, three-pointers off the dribble. Not going to be a guy who's breaking down defenses, attacking the basket, drawing files yet, at least. He's not a playmaker yet. Defensively, that dude's versatile. He can, you know, help at the rim, defends on the perimeter and a high-level, switchable. Like, all of those things are important.

That gives him a floor. But I think with Chet, you know, what you guys are saying is that Chet is somebody who, he is an anchor of your defense. He can be one of your key forces on defense as a room protector and help or is one of the primary as the five. And on offense lob threat,

three point shooter, he can pass better than he was able to show a Gonzaga because of his limited role there. And how much of that though also has to do with the existing pieces on your roster? Because with Wagner, everything I said about Jabari Smith kind of applies to Franz Wagner and you have

Suggs as a guard and Fultz as a guard. And you have you know, Suggs as a guard and Fultz as a guard. How much does it have to do with that? Well, I also want to make one part of his game, Jay Chapman at the Magic Radio Network had one of the Gonzaga beatwriters on the other day. And they said the Chet's mid-range game wasn't able to be shown at all at Gonzaga. And he's got it. And he's got it.

And they said, listen, we're not comparing him to Kevin Durant, but there's an upside there where he can make shots at every level of the floor. And you need to be aware of that going into the NBA. That's part of his game that we haven't necessarily seen. He wasn't allowed to show it. He wasn't able to. Right. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

But it's there. And so, Surrity, I think we need to go back and forth on this because it's a roster question. Because I've heard people say, all right, if you want to build around Markell Fultz is your point guard, he can't shoot or he's not a consistent shooter. So you've got to have a shooter somewhere. And maybe that's Jabari. Jabari, you know, could be the new age, you know, extremely rich man's Richard Lewis, right? And, you know, listen, I'll fall for any Richard Lewis comp. I've seen them out there, but that's not even enough to convince me.

yet. But I think that when you go kind of in search of a superstar, I don't really think you can worry about any of the other pieces, Rudy. I don't know if I'm wrong or you disagree. Like, I'm not sitting here saying like, ah, we can't do this because we need to pair with this guy. Like, I just want the highest ceiling possible. And so I actually don't care that much about the current roster. I love the idea of a mini big three of Franz, Chet, and when Dell, that sounds great to me, but I'm not making a pick based on that. I agree. If you were to tell me, hey, the Magic Take Javari, he slots in perfectly.

He's actually a perfect fit for the magic. And, you know, because they desperately need three-point shooting. I think they were like, what? They were definitely bottomed, I think, five in three-point shooting last year. Their guards don't shoot. So they need basically shooting from everywhere else on the court. And if you're going to bring it a power forward who's, you know, from college, hitting 42% from three, then obviously that's a natural fit.

I think they have, and this is the dilemma, because the magic do have, playmaking. I mean, I think Franz is a playmaker. I'd like to see the ball on his hands more next season. They didn't do that a ton. I kind of wish they did it more at the end of the season when they didn't really have anything to play for. And they didn't. But that's when they got Fultz back. And Fultz is their primary playmaker. And we want to joke about Fultz and the shooting and number one pick and how he went over Tatum and all that stuff with the Sixers and the Celtics trade. That's fine. Foltz is a good player. Like he just, he just is very good. And the magic are significantly better when he's on the court. Every player on the magic is significantly better when he is in the

course. So you can sit here and tell me, all right, yeah, you take Jabari because you actually don't need him to playmake. So there are some, there are some thoughts there. We go on his team building thing to say, hey, we actually don't need. Jabari's like playmaking and his driveling. If he could develop that in three, four years, five years, that's great. But we actually don't need him to do that from day one in this roster. Like, you could sell me on that. I'm, I'm okay with that. But I'm kind of going back to your point, Keb, like, if you have the first pick and you have a chance to take a guy who could potentially be generational, like the main thing for me, on the Chet versus Javari thing is, how bummed would you be?

I personally would be so bummed if in like five years, Chet is this incredible, like, unicorn player, and he's so fun, and he's like a top five league pass guy, and you passed on him because you took a guy who is a really good perimeter shooter and a good defender, you know, who was a safer pick at the time. And I sure, sure, there's obviously downside. Check could certainly bust out, although I think there's actually, I think there's too much talk about his body.

I've said that one in kind of the opening rant that I had there. How many guys in the league now, KOC, How many guys in the league physically, like when they get into the league, especially big guys, just get bullied out of the league to the point where they can't play, like a Sean Bradley type or somebody like that. It doesn't happen. I don't think it happens anymore. It doesn't happen in today. Even Alexei Pocchevsky, that's probably the closest comparable. And despite his struggles for the thunder, he still has gotten better. Like the second half of this past season for OKC, it was really the first time, you know, instead of him being a meme on the basketball court, it's like, oh, it's starting to come together a little bit.

He's still super skinny. It doesn't make a difference. Like the NBA, I thought Bill Simmons, like, he had a great comparison for Chet Homer and calling him weird body Al Horford. You know, it's just like, you know, a guy like that, it's, yes, he has a funky body. But ultimately in today's NBA, it allows for strange body types to thrive in today's game. It's positionless. It doesn't make a difference. I don't believe.

And he's still a better, he's still a good athlete, too. That's the thing. He does. Like, the perimeter defending thing is a problem. When he moves. He plays hard. He's tough. Totally.

And he's not afraid. I mean, the quote about him. I'm asking him like, you know, who's the best player in the NBA and him saying me in two months. I love that. And, you know, I think the match is something like that. They need like an alpha. So if they were to take Jabari, they would, they'll be good and he'll be a good player for them. And that's fine. I can see them being in a couple of teams like a steady playoff team because they've got a lot of talent. I'm just more willing to take the risk with Chet. And I just think when you have number one pick, I've heard sharks talk about this. When you have that pick, I think he said that teams are too risk averse at the number one pick. And they oftentimes like fail because they end up going because they don't want to get fired. And I, you know, it's easy for me sitting on my couch watching game, watching Magic games to say, take chat, don't worry about getting fired. Like, I understand how stupid that is for me to say because I'm not making the decision and my livelihood is not on the line. But that's what I would do. Well, here's the thing. With Jabari Smith, I have on my big board, Paolo Bankero number one, Jabari Smith, number two, Chet Homer number three.

The truth is, is those guys are really like ABC. You know, it's like 1A, 1B, 1C. It's very close. I'd have different guys ranked first for different teams. With Jabari Smith, everybody talks about the high floor. The thing is, though, is what if there is also a high ceiling with him, though? You said earlier, Sir Rudy, like, he doesn't need to be a playmaker, a ball handler earlier in his career if he's drafted by the magic. And that's true.

It's also true, you know, if he were to go to OKC. It's true if he were to go to Houston. It almost doesn't matter where he goes. He doesn't have to be that guy early on. But considering the fact he's such a great shotmaker, he proved that he can shoot, you know, contested jumpers off the bounce. What if he becomes a guy where it's like he's not a. you know, an end game playmaker necessarily, but maybe he can become one of your guys in an offense that shares the ball. And he's a perimeter oriented guy, but for someone who works

as hard as he does, the work ethic I hear about with Jabari Smith, I think he's going to max out who he can be. What level is that? Like, who knows? Like, maybe there's limits to his handle. He does kind of have a tighter lower body, like looks a lot like Michael Porter Jr., you know, with the Nuggets. Like, Porter Jr., really talented offensive player, but he doesn't have like that hit flexibility and you know that quickness off the bounce that like the best go-to scorers do so maybe there are limits for smith but i don't necessarily think he's just going to be some spot-up guy throughout his entire career you know guaranteed like there there could be more to his game there and with the magic all indications are that he's going to be the pick i mean that

i've heard there are people within their front office that really really really like chet you don't hear a lot about Paulo Bancaro as someone there, but it sounds like Jabari Smith is going to be the guy for them. At least as of today, recording this Wednesday, June 15th, a little over a week from the draft. Maybe things change, but does that disappoint you, Kev,

to know that it seems like he's going to be the pick? I'm going to say this. There's a lanky guy with a massive wingspan available at the top of the draft and the magic of ruled out picking him two weeks out from the draft. That seems to me like some, knowing what the magic

misdirection Yeah Knowing what the magic Like to do Which is just wingspan Length Defense Who knows what they're doing

As far as the work ethic and character I literally don't know Anything about either of them As far as that goes I have not looked at And also my experience From the NFL side It's at most that's junk science anyway

But It's interesting to me It would disappoint me a little bit Having said that Those guys know a lot About hoops And I don't Um, I would say necessarily, you know, the alpha thing that's already talked about a second ago is so important because we haven't had it and we've had to find it in weird sources. Like Henigan, Rob Henigan love drafting these high character sort of soft, softer spoken personalities. Nobody ever took the reins. When we made the playoffs, Michael Carter Williams was the only guy who would yell at other players and yell at the refs. Like that was it. That was why he was around. And then I put that the other day to someone I said, who's, who's doing the yelling? Who's yelling? Who's yelling? Who's yelling?

at anybody. And apparently the answer right now is Mo Wagner, okay, who's Franz's brother and has a roster spot to be basically a glue guy, a good brother, and he's the alpha, right? I don't want... Of hustle fame, by the way, of hustle fame. He's now an actor as well. He's in hustle? He's in hustle. Wait, are both Wagner brothers in it or just Mo? Franz wasn't in it, right? No, I think just Mo, but it was a great came. Yeah, Mo, yeah, I liked Mo's spot on the, on the, uh, in hustle. International a player that the owner wanted. A little second career for Big Mo.

Yeah. What was his last name? Surrey Haas in the movie? Yeah, that's not the funny. So he was a player, yeah. Aaron Gordon was in it too. We'll forget about it. We don't worry about that. So I don't know. I mean, I just think that I think Surud and I are both in lockstep on

chipping the guy. I think that maybe next year, and I think that, listen, draft picks, it's kind of a movable feast, right? like everything changes a living document, right? Where it's just like this year, Jabari might look like the guy, but you can't, someone like Chet, I don't think you can judge until the end of year two, year three, perhaps even year four.

We're talking about a guy who has to put on a ton of weight, add some physicality because he's going to get pushed around at the beginning of his career. I agree with you, Surrudi. He's not going to get pushed out of the league. Even a Sean Bradley type. Sean Bradley made it 12 years in the league, right? So I think that

I don't know I would feel a pang of of disappointment but I wouldn't be crestfallen if it ends up being Jabari. If they do take Jabari Smith Surrey do you want them to resign Mobamba? I am on the record as being

and I don't I don't want to be too mean but I just don't like the guy I think he's a tease player I just think he is I think he's going to show flashes all the time and if you give him a big contract I would just be terrified that

he would just never figure it out and you'd be stuck with this guy who's just going to show Flash has been never actually going to, you know, contribute to, like, meaningful winning basketball. I think you'd probably have to in that case because, you know, you still probably need a backup center. And, you know, I guess you don't want to lose the asset. I would just, I would try to trade him last year at the deadline. I would try to trade them now. But I think, I don't think you let him walk for free if you do take Jabari. Because I do think, again, they could play together too. Because, you know, obviously Bomba would be more of like the interior presence.

But then, you know, that, that gets back to our discussion about, like, what the roster looks like right now. I mean, I do, as much as I said, like, I think Javari slots in very nicely, kind of at the four in between Wendell Carter Jr. and Brahms, I think Chet does too. I think actually Wendukhar Jr. is the perfect guy to play next to Chet because he's your muscle guy. He's not going to get bullied. He actually also can step out so he's not going to take up a ton of time, a ton of space in the paint. And, you know, that allows Chet to kind of do all the cool Chet shit that he does. He can like block shots and be an incredible help defender, not have to like do this one-on-one thing. So I know we should look at the roster. And again, it's why I'm kind of leaning towards Shep because I just think, yes, the roster also does look like it'll have a nice place for Chet, but I think he's also just the best player in the draft. Kevin, you sighed when I asked about Bamba. I'm just a little bit. Why do you guys hate him all Obama so much? Well, because we watch a lot of magic basketball. I think that might have something to do with it.

You get to do every three months when he has a big game. You get to do your little Twitter memes. And Srudy and I are sitting around living and dying with every quarter. Okay? So that's why we might have different attitudes on it. I think He got better his fourth year, Kev.

He got better his fourth year. I think, oh, good. At this rate, imagine what he'll deal with year 40. Just in time to get paid, by the way. Just in time to get paid.

I don't want to let that skate. I mean, I'm not saying he's, you know, not going to keep getting better, but that scares me. Steve Clifford had him buried behind Kemp Birch

because he loved better than so much. Moe was playing 14, 15 minutes per game for his first three years. There was no opportunity until last year under Mosley. All right. So, Surrey and I, we can go back and forth on this. I actually, I understand the asset part of it. If he's got stock in the league, get something for him.

I actually think it'd be pretty easy to replace his level of play for much cheaper. I just don't think he brings a ton. I think he's just still really inconsistent, played well at the end of the year. I would say that what was weird, Sir Rudy, and I'm sure you noticed this, is, you know, we were so unhealthy last year that it was we were like a different team you know you got to see franz in the middle of the year when nobody else was playing i went to a game like barclay center was four lakeland magic players because of covid plus franz like that was a team and so you got to see when he was the guy how he reacted to it and he reacted very well to it when fultz came back

um and and everything didn't run through franz he was a little bit of a different player i was actually slightly disappointed um in in the way he finished out the season so it was really interesting to see kind of the different ways the team evolve. What happens when Jonathan Isaac comes back? I have no idea. I'm not counting ever on Jonathan Isaac to ever give us anything again, but he's making money. He's on the roster. He's the only person. I was just listening to someone talking about this yesterday. He's the only person who's ever on the roster

has ever shown an elite skill set, and that's defense, and that was when he was healthy. I was looking at sports books the other day. So he wrote a political book. Don't want anything to do with that. Don't know anything about that. And I just scrolled right past it, not even clicking on the summary. he's written more books in the last two years than he has played NBA basketball games so that tells you it's like a I mean like Dremont is to podcasting

if Jonathan Isaac is to Yeah it's a why I stand by Jonathan Isaac Four 4.9 stars on Amazon Don't want any don't be not looking into that at all So I think that I mean this is this is a long way of saying Mo Bamba has had a long run way

to prove that we should commit to him full time and I've just never seen a long stretch of basketball Surruti where I've said, all right, I'm good. I mean, like, we've got a lot of guys. Part of the reason that we have, we have a number of, as I said, B-level good players. And those players are actually in today's modern NBA,

fairly expensive. And I just, at some point, there stops being money to go around for someone like a Mo Bamba, who I think you can get the production and the defense for much less money. I totally agree. We, we joked about this. Kevin, you can call us a Homer, and we obviously are.

But I think The Magic actually have too many good players. Yes, yes. For a team that was like the second worst record in the league, and, you know, people like to laugh at. And every time there's like a joke about a terrible team, the magic are always the first team everybody mentions. I don't know why. It's like everybody got a memo that's like whenever we're going to clown on a terrible

franchise is the magic. But they actually have, you know, like you go, Franz, Cole Anthony, Markell, we'll throw in Bamba, Jalen Suggs, Isaac, who knows, Wendell, Wendell, Carter. I mean, Terence Ross is still around. I mean, we'll see what happens with his future. I like R.J. Hampton. Robin Lopez is still on the roster.

I mean, Chumo Kike is a guy that we really like, and I don't know where he fits in this equation, too. They almost have too many guys. I need to stop here right there. You just went through and said nice things about everybody, and then you said, Robin Lopez is still on the roster. That was his fun fact. He's a nice bet.

I don't know. I like him. To your point, this is something I think about all the time. Hennigan and the Weltman-Hammon years, so the last decade, they've had to have done a pretty good job at acquiring for cheap or in the draft like legit MBA guys

like legit NBA guys who were going to play a long time league even getting Tobias Harris from Milwaukee in the JJ Reddick trade where I don't think people had a lot of expectations at getting Evan Fornier and they aren't a follow deal like these are guys who were legit there was there was never a question about the scouting eye for any of them any of it frankly it was about

asset management how they fit and then coach is not doing enough to make it work. And then beyond that, just what happens when having a bunch of legit MBA guys doesn't make you good. It just makes guys so you have to pay, we're going to hang around for a while. Like, you need

a propelling force, and that's a legit superstar, and that's what they've always lacked. So I agree with you. They have a glut of fine players and in a weird way that sometimes holds the roster back. And that speaks to your point

about wanting to draft for upside. You want that franchise changer. And just to touch on last year's lottery picks, Franz Wagner and Jalen Suggs. Wagner was terrific all year long as we talked about. He's a do-it-all player on offense, can shoot threes, can playmate a little bit. You'd like to see more of that. You guys

said defensive versatility. Vagner's good. He's going to be good a long time. What do you think his upside is as a player? Is he one of those driving forces on your roster moving forward? I'm probably more optimistic about that than most. I don't think he

I don't think he has like a glaring weakness in his game. No. He defends well. He could ball handle. He's a good knockdown shooter. He can get better shooting off the dribble for sure. He's actually incredible at finishing at the rim with contact and he's strong. You know, if a guy was 610, you'd think he'd be like a little bit more wiry.

No, he's a really good finisher at the rim. As I said earlier, like I'd like to see him play. I think he has more playmaking capabilities than what he showed last year. And I wish they let him do that. But when Fultz came back and kind of changed the team a little bit, I, you know, is he superstar? No, I don't think that's the seat. I don't think that's like realistic for him. Do I think he could be like a multi-time all-star who's, you know,

who's, you know, the best player on a playoff team? I think I think that's reasonable. Yep. Second best player on a legit contender. That's fair. I think that's a good way to put it. Second, maybe third, you know, something like that. And with Jaylon Suggs, though, got off to a horrible start, missed the middle of the season,

came back in January, continued to struggle, shot 17% from 3 in the 2022 calendar year, 11 points per game only 38% from the field I mean like it wasn't it wasn't pretty thanks for this got any other stats are you worried about jailed sugs I mean I don't want to I don't want to trigger you anymore that's too early to make the judgment call except to say

that when Franz is the second best player on a legit contender the best player will not be jalen sugs that that's what I saw from last year up he struggled he was inconsistent I still like his I still think he's

he's a leader. I still think he can work to get better. I think he was injured and banged up a little bit last year. And I think sometimes he must have been really hurt. He must have been really hurt. Yeah, you hear. Maybe he had like a torn ACL the entire year. Just played through it like Phillip Rivers. Maybe I mean, maybe it's just a makeup. They had two blown Achilles the entire year. No. That would explain it. I don't know. I mean, KOC, you know who's far better than me. Is there an analogy? for a guy who just had a complete right off his rookie year,

even when he played and took a year or two leap because in football happens all the time. In hoops, it seems to me that guys show up great and continue to be great and there's never really a process like this. Yeah, more often than not, that's the case. And with Jaylen Sungs, he was one of the reasons

why I am a little concerned with him is because at Gonzaga, he wasn't expected to be a one and done. People thought he would be a two-year guy, check coming in, they'd play together, and then they would, you know, try to win a national championship together. But he was so good his freshman year within their system. Then, like, he made himself a lottery pick.

I wonder how much of that performance at Gonzaga was due to their system. And then, like, he gets exposed in the NBA when really he's not ready. System guy. There's a system guy tag in the wild. He might just be a system guy. And that's where I'm a little worried then. Whereas with Chet, it's the opposite. like, Chad, he wasn't allowed to show his full talents in their system.

Maybe I am Mr. System guy because I was an Alex Smith defender for, for years, and that was like my thing. And I was just like, I'm just telling his guy. Still haven't given up on Joey Harrington. I don't know. Joey, Joe, Joe, still on Joe Harrington. But I'll say this about, I'll say this about, about Jayland Suggs. The shooting was terrible. The finishing at the rim was terrible.

He was legitimately great defensively, though. And he is also a good, just like, guy to have on your team, guy you want in the Foxhole. To Kev's point, he's not, I don't, I don't think he's ever going to be a star. I think we probably got a little too excited in the draft when he fell to five. And, you know, I think we were clowning on Raptors fans. And Raptors fans don't let us forget that they, you know, they took Scotty Barnes. Listen, we're happy for you, Raptors fans. I'm not mad about that.

I'm still happy that we got Suggs. It's okay because I've seen so many Scotty Barnes get drafted by the magic and completely flame out that I just, I just don't think that would have been a good thing for both parties. I still think Suggs has the ability to turn it around. I mean, he can't possibly be this bad of a shooter. He works hard. And he's too athletic to not beat to be as bad as he was last year at finishing at the rim, too. And after that hand injury, he did get better. I think he needed to take a couple.

Like he took a month off or, you know, obviously put the injury, a month and a half off. And when he came back, he was revitalized. He was more efficient. He was significantly better. Now he was also playing next to Marco Foltz. I think that helped as well because I don't think Cole Anthony is always the best teammate for another guard to play next to you because you're kind of a no man's land for a while. So I think my expectations for Suggs are now lower. the ceiling is certainly lower.

But I still think he's going to be a good player. I still think he's going to be a contributor to a good basketball team as a starter. I would also say you have two top eight picks and you end up with one franchise player. Good. Deal me out. I'm good. I'm good with that. Like that's, I'm fine with those odds. And also with Suggs, you know, guys like Kemba Walker, Kyle Lowry, I guess to answer your question, Kev, those are maybe some of the guys. Granted Lowry wasn't a lottery pick. Kembo was. But, you know, there's been instances of point guards that have gotten off slow starts.

in their career and then become all-stars. It's so possible. I mean, even with Fultz, think about him. You guys mentioned how he is a good player, and he is, like, he can defend. He's a quality passer. He makes his teammates around him better. He's someone that you can rely on to run the offense.

You know, it's just with him, can the perimeter a shot ever come together and look like it did at Washington. Yeah, and point guard in particular, it's a bit like quarterback in NFL, where so much of it is just adjusting to the speed of the game and knowing what chances you can take and what you can't. So it would make sense that there would be

more players like that at the point card position. Last thing here, this will be the fourth time drafting first, the Orlando Magic card. Dwight Howard in 2004, Chris Weber in 1993, Shaq in 1992. When you look forward at the Orlando Magic the next five, ten years, do you guys feel, you know, hope, excitement? I mean, where are your feelings at right now

a week to go until the NBA draft? I'm like, what's going on in your mind right now? nervous? This is the first year, this past year, where I kind of felt like, even though they were still bad, I'm like,

there's a direction here. There's guys that, the underrated thing about this team, too, is I mentioned all the guys that are like B-level players that Kevin and I were joking about that are just like,

okay, and we need a guy, but they all, like, the chemistry on this team, they all love each other. A lot of them are kind of similar ages. They grew up playing together, and that's the cool thing about Chet.

You alluded to it a little bit too, KOC is, like, he, like, sucks and Chet, like, I believe Chet went to Gonzaga because, sucks because they played in high school together and like they have this relationship.

So the more camaraderie that you build, like this team is actually really fun to watch. And yeah, they weren't good last year, but they play hard and there's potential there. So for the first time in a decade, because we've been rebuilding since basically we traded Dwayne Howard, right? And, you know, there's been some guys like the Aaron Gordons, the Olo Depos, but it just never felt like we are going in the right direction. We were always kind of treading water. And then every draft we would have, we would just miss out on like whatever the top three guys where we'd have the fourth pick or the fifth pick, you know, we would just miss out on that crop. now I finally feel like we're going in the right direction and there's a there's a core of players here

that can be something fun. I'm not saying like they're on pace to be like the next, you know, a title team. I'm saying that, you know, they're going to be next Warriors of the Celtics or something like that. But I think there's like,

there's optimism that there is a sustainability to this core and this team that I think if you add a guy like Chet or, you know, even if it's Jabari, like I'm not going to be incredibly bummed about that. Not Paulo? I think there's, is Paulo not even on your radar?

I don't even know. I don't, I mean, I don't know what to think about that because there are people like you and, like, Rosillo, and a lot of people that I trust, I think he's the best part in the draft. He just doesn't strike me as a magic player. I don't know what that even means, but, like, I guess that's just, like, lanky and tall and long. Like, he's more of, like, the, I guess, I guess for Apollo, his body type and, like, what he could be in other guys that he's compared to in the league, that scares me. Like, if it's Blake Griffin and Julius Randall and, like, a little bit of Carmelo, that, that position and that, like, just sort of, like, type of player does scare me a little bit.

That guy usually needs somebody else to help him out too. So I don't know. He thinks he's Jason Tatum, right? But I don't think he's Jason Tatum. Okay. I have a couple things to say. Number one, I'm still tortured. Surrey, remember last year when we were golfing last summer?

And we made the point that we were so pissed off. You made it, and I stole it, that it sucked that the Raptors were drafting ahead of us because they were going to draft the best player in the draft and developed them, ended up being Scotty Barnes. And so now, on the flip side, we finally get the first overall pick. We don't have to worry about who's in front of us.

But now I'm worried about the number two pick, going to the Thunder, being developed well, and us going, damn it, I can't believe this happened, right? So I would not, like, part of me is just always going to be tortured. There's a pessimism there. I would say that shit thing. I want to kind of piggyback off what you just said, Sir Rudy, about Suggs. and about Suggs and Chet Chet to me

with the Suggs connection how quickly he would fit in with the rest of that culture they all love each other and the idea that the two AAU friends would have been college friends and Chet basically went there

as part of that that movement that Sugg started one of the things and this points we made a million times so one of the things about Orlando is that guys need to stay there right that's the whole problem we've had is that

Dwight Howard wanted to leave, Shaq wanted to leave, Penny wanted to leave, T Mac wanted to leave. And the best way to get guys to stay is to establish young core who continues to love each other, do love each other, turn it over and say, this is yours, guys. Like, this is your city, this is your building, this is your, you know, if I can bring back the pinstripes, whatever you want to do, right? The old school pinstrips, not the new school pinstripes. Just like you're the identity of this team to where it's, it's, you can't leave. You can't leave, right? And that to me is a important thing is building that

culture. And I'm not saying Javar I can't do that. I'm just saying it's something that needs to be built out. The last thing I'm going to say, you asked me about the optimism is that I met my wife in 2011. And towards the end, I think that year we played the Pacers in the playoffs and we lost. And I said to

her, so let's just, you know, just one little this is the only thing like this. When the magic make the Eastern Conference finals, I'm going to Orlando and I'm not coming back until the season is over. You can come. You don't have to come, but that's what's going to happen. It's a one-way ticket to Orlando.

Okay. And it's been 11 years and we've never even come close to that happen. Not even to consideration. Not even looking at flights. Okay? Not even texting my dad and saying, can you get the bed ready for three weeks from now? I'm coming down for an indefinite

period of time. And it's not even happened. Okay? I come down for January losses. The the Hornets. The first time my wife went to a magic game, we lost because Gustavo I own Mr. Free Throw at the buzzer. Okay? That's been her entire experience. We've been together for over a decade. We got married. We're buying a house at some point. Like that's what you need to know about how bad we've been. And what I think

is at the core that this team has and the pick that's going to be made this month is going to propel us and change the narrative. and get us into the East finals within five years. The narrative changes today, Kevin O'Connor. Wow. I'm ready to run through a wall right now. Let's go. Let's go.

I'm ready to go down there, Kevin. I'm ready to go to Orlando. We're going to June. We're going down to Wall Street. Going to can'tina. Let's go. Let's do it. Maybe like, what is this going to be?

20, 25, 2026, something like that. Yeah. Yep. I'm ready for it. Which I think that's reasonable. KOSD, I want to ask you this really quickly because I know we've got to bounce. Would you want the first pick in this draft? I think you can make an argument that you still would.

You would just be confidently too. I mean, I want the first pick because you have all the leverage. If you wanted to on draft night trade down, you could trade down. What if OKC offers you number two and then like, you know, I don't know, a future first and whatever else for the number one pick, the flip spots one to two. Like, then you have another future asset and you could still potentially get the guy that you want. I don't know. I just love having to leverage on top. If it's Jabari, they should absolutely be trying to do that.

but I'm still holding that vote for chat. And that's why I'm not 100% sold on all indications that it's Jabari Smith. I'm not 100% there. But we'll see. One week to go. Kevin Clark, Steve Serrude, you guys are fired up, a little nervous. Can I ask one crazy hypothetical? Yes.

What would it have to take for Houston to Godfather off for us? Hmm. I mean, well, what was the comparable with Fultz and Tatum? It was two first round picks. It was three and a few. future first for number one. And if the price is comparable. But you think it's comparable?

Because I don't know if it's comparable because close. Maybe it's a little more. Because I think most people view, with the exception of the folks we already named, view the drop off from two to three to be significant. I wouldn't say significant. I think, I mean, I have been careful first. But, I mean, there are a lot of people who do have him with a bit of separation behind the others. And there's people that have Jabari Smith, even behind Jane and Ivy.

I mean, like, there's people who love Ivy. That's the weird thing too. Like, yeah, there's like, I mean, I know, KVS, you were talking about this, but even before the lottery about, like, if the magic landed forth. Like, I would have loved them to take a guy like Jade and Ivy. But, you know, and I've heard, I think Berno say he thinks, like, he wouldn't be surprised if three to five years of five, he was the best player in the draft.

Because, like, that's the prototype of, like, what successful star players are in this league. And, like, the top three, those guys are all these kind of pigs and the, quote, unquote, unicorn types. And, you know, that's the other thing, too. And I'll leave you with this. I think some guys are afraid, some teams are afraid of like if there's not a cop for a guy.

That doesn't scare me about shit. I've heard San Vasini say this. I've heard sharks say this. Like when you, like, don't be afraid to pick the guy that you've never seen before because he like, what, we never saw a Janice type player before. You know, LeBron had like a little bit of Magic Johnson and my guess, but he's like an incredibly unique player. Like don't be afraid because you, you can't make a straight one-on-one comp to somebody

to take that guy. Let him be himself and maybe he could turn into like the next big thing in the league. So that's why, that's another reason why I love Chad. I'm with you, man. Just because there's no, you know, direct comparable for a player. They become, they become the comp. Then there's a player that everybody's comparing the next wave to. And there's going to be a lot more guys like Chad Holmgren.

Victor Rembenyama next year, three-point shooting seven foot three guy. This is going to become more and more normal with Bigsu can shoot. It already is. It's going to become more so, though. Kev, I can tell you're fired up. You're excited to go to the Easter Carver's finals. And maybe the NBA finals. Baby steps, man.

Baby steps. going to make the pick. Thank you guys for coming on today. I appreciate it. Thanks, Cough. Thank you.