The Mismatch - Eight Things to Look Forward to Entering the NBA Season

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

After it was reported that the Raptors are front-runners to trade for Damian Lillard, Verno and KOC discuss Toronto’s interest in Dame, what it would take for both sides to agree to a deal, and the other teams that could possibly make a move (03:41). Also, as the guys enter their eighth season covering basketball together, they discuss eight things that they are most excited for in the upcoming season (19:35). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Monday night from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Connor, A.Kever, Kevin O'Camporke, Kevin O'Candleand, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien. How are you doing today, man? I'm great. We only have a week and a half until we are going to be watching NBA basketball.

Now, it will only be the preseason as those games are scheduled for Abu Dhabi next Wednesday between the Mavericks and the Timberwolves. But media days are going to be at the beginning of next week, and then we will have preseason basketball getting going. And so we are going to start taking a look ahead at the season that is to come. And we are going to give you eight things that we look forward to this upcoming NBA season. Why eight, Chris? Why eight? because this, as you mentioned to me, is season number eight of the mismatch. I was shocked.

You're good with anniversaries. You know, whoever your eventual mate ends up being, they got a golden one on their hands. Because you can remember, you can remember, like, I remember what time we brought up and you were like, yeah, our first episode was October something of 19, of what year was it? Of 19? What is that old? Whatever it was. I am.

But yeah, I guess it was, so eight years, 2015 was the first one? 2016. 2016. Yeah, we're entering our eight seasons. So the 2016 season, yeah, it was like October, second or third of 2016. That's crazy.

Pared us together. We talked about Ben Simmons and a bunch of other stuff. I think maybe next Monday might be. closer to the anniversary. But yeah, our eighth season. How about that, huh?

Unbelievable. Thank you to all of our listeners that have made that possible. I got to imagine we've got to be the longest running outside of Bill. And maybe I don't know, we'd have to go back and look at when the rewatchable started. Chris Ryan's pod. Well,

the watch goes back to. Yeah, that one would be probably longer. Yes. But yeah, we've got to be, we're certainly in the top five of, of the longest running ringer pods for sure easily for sure which is crazy it's been that long

it's hard to believe man like i'm one of the longest tenured employees at this point is that true like yeah like all the people that have left and all that like kevin clark just left for ESPN and omaha and he was previously one of the longest tenured before me it's kind of crazy how long it's been man but hopefully many many many more years to come all right well before we get into the eight things we look forward to this NBA season. We've got to get to this news regarding the least talked about development of the summer. This Damian Lillard thing, Kev. We just never seem to have any talk about this. Never. I mean, this might be our first time since, I don't know, early July since talking about it, right? This is real advancement of a story, though.

It is. This is not just the tea leaves or room. or whatever. This is like an actual report from Mark Spears that says the Toronto Raptors enter this week as the frontrunners to trade for Damian Lillard, two high-ranking NBA team executives told ESPNs and Scape. While the Raptors have had recent conversations with the Blazers about Lillard, no pact was close or imminent as of Monday morning. Then it goes on to talk about Lillard,

of the trade, his preferred destination being Miami. And then it says a Raptor's offer could include a package featuring players from a roster that includes two-time NBA All-Star Pascal Seahakum, 2002 NBA rookie of the year, Scotty Barnes, forward OG and In In Inobie, who is eligible for a contract extension, and rookie sharpshooter Grady Dick. The Blazers are intrigued about adding a young 6'8 sharpshooter in Dick, a source said. the two NBA executives said that they expect Lillard to be traded before Media Day, which is October 2nd for most teams, including the Blazers, the Heat, and the Raptors. Practices will begin the next day.

And then it goes on to say, along with Toronto, Miami, Milwaukee, the Celtics, the Sixers, the Bulls have also shown interest since Lillard's initial trade request. All right, so what do we make of this? The guy that once put the deal together to trade for Kauai Leonard might very well be big game hunting again. What do we think about Toronto and the names that are kind of thrown out there and what a package would look like? Well, that name you mentioned, Masayu Jiri. That's important here because Masayu Jiri, this is one thing Mark Spears didn't mention in his article regarding the Raptors. Messiahe Ujiri has a long relationship with Aaron Goodwin, who is the agent for Damian Lillard and Damar de Rosen.

They've worked together for many years. They work together during that Demard de Rosen for Kawhi Leonard deal. So all that to say, either A, the Raptor's interest in Damien, Lillard is genuine, and that they want to go out and get Dame and they're choosing a path. As we've talked about all summer, they're a team that's kind of in the middle. Nobody knows if they want to start winning or move towards rebuilding. This could be them choosing a path.

Or B, he's trying to do a solid for Goodwin and Dame because of that long relationship that they have and try to just drive up the price towards a deal actually happening. And so it could be one of those two things. I do think the interest is genuine. You know, like Spears, he was the guy about 10 days ago. who said he can't say yet who the mystery team is. Shams a couple weeks back, I believe, mentioned the Raptors as a team that could potentially get in on Dame.

I think the Raptors have genuine interest here, and they have the assets to deal. They can get creative. But ultimately, it's very hard to know here how genuine that is. But one of the thing, Chris, there's a lot of noise. Like sometimes stuff is out there so much, you can't believe it, right? But before that Kauai Leonard deal happened years ago, Tim Bond Temps, who typically does not report trade stuff, like that's no knock against him. I don't either, right? Tim typically doesn't report this type of stuff. He was the first, I believe, to say that the Raptors had interest in Kauai lettered.

And that was like two weeks prior to the Raptors landing Kauai. That's what got all those rumors starting about will he get up getting traded to the Raptors, even though he wants to go to L.A.? Well, he did. He ended up going to the Raptors. I think this could potentially be history repeating here where stuff is coming out of unexpected places involving Toronto. It's not just Woj, not just Shams. It's Mark Spears. Like Mark isn't always the guy reporting trade stuff either. But this type of stuff is leaking out and we'll see if it ends up manifesting or another surprise team or it's just Miami. There is no way they would trade Scotty Barnes, right? I don't think so, man.

That would be crazy. No, I can't see them trading Scotty Barnes. I can't see them trading Pascal Seacom for that matter either. I think the deal would include O.G. and Nobie, Gary Trent's expiring contract, and then a bunch of young players and picks. Oh, no, I think they would move Seacom. I don't think so, man. Well, because if you're not going to pay him. Yeah, but they might not want to pay him until they know what else they got.

Like, if they know they're getting damed, then they'll be more willing to commit to, towards the, okay, we're going to resign Pascal Seaccom path moving forward. Because like, see, yeah, but I don't, I don't think that Seacom, you're, look, you're never going to get the best out of Scotty Barnes if you got Seaccom. You're just not. So you're dedicating to one or the other, to me. And I do think it's about time that we need the Scotty Barnes breakout. And I think getting Seaccom out of the way enables that.

That's what I would guess. Yeah, but then the flip side of that is, is O. O.G. and an Obie, who only has two years left. Is he going to be happy and want to re-sign there either when he's behind Damien Lillard and behind Scotty Barnes. O.G.'s deal is coming up. He has a player option for next year, so he actually could be a free agent in 2024. So he has only one year left. He can't be involved.

He's worth five first-round picks, according to Kevin O'Connor from the ringer. How you get to throw him in a deal? The guy's a five-first-round pick player. Oji and Anobie. I think they'd move Oji. Of course they would. And also Oji would have more value to the Blazers as well than Pascal Seacom. He's three, four years younger.

He just fits their roster much better with their timeline. If I'm the Blazers, I want Oji and Anobie and a deal. Why would you not want Seaccom? I mean, along with Scoot and Jeremy Grant, like you might actually be pretty good, you know, pretty competitive. pretty fast. Do I want to be pretty competitive pretty fast?

I'm not so sure. I mean, I don't think that most, there hasn't been a very good payoff for being crap recently. Yeah, but see,

Atcom's almost 30 years old. He's going to be 30 his next contract. He just doesn't fit the timeline for No, I get it. I get it. Well,

also, he's an asset. I mean, a big asset, right? And we thought that they were doing a lot of asset accumulation

during the offseason. That's why we thought that they did the Jeremy Grant deal and some of the others. We defended these by saying, look, they're going to be, there's going to come a time where they're going to be able to get these expirings and some first round picks and really just stock up. If you're tearing this thing down after you move off of Dane, that you're just in asset accumulation. And then you're going to look to all these different contenders, et cetera, and GMs that are worried about losing their job. coaches, et cetera, and you're going to be able to pawn these guys off and get first-round picks out of them along with some expirings to maybe, you know, you could ship them off to somebody

that really needs that guy. The big question, though, is, like, we know about Toronto and the talks that are having with Portland. The big question is those other teams that have been listed, bucks, Celtics, Sixers, Bulls, according to Mark Spears. bucks, I don't think they have anywhere near enough. You'd have to move Drew Holiday, who has said he's going to retire after his current contract in two years, regardless of whether he does that or not.

Holiday's not going to get you more assets in return than what, say, Toronto could give. The Sixers, I don't think they're giving up Tyrese Maxie, unless they do. I can't imagine that they would have enough assets. The Bulls, they could compile quite a bit, and they also have the rights to some Blazers' picks because of the protections on it as well. So the Bulls are interesting. I don't think Dean would be happy going to the Bulls because the Bulls aren't quite ready to contend.

The Heat are ready. The Sixers are ready. Even the Raptors, I don't think they're quite ready, but they feel further ahead than the Bulls are if they added him to the mix. And then the Celtics are the interesting one there because, you know, whether it means anything or not, Bet Online has them as the favorites, the odds maker's favorite to land Dame behind Miami. And I don't necessarily think that matters a whole lot here,

but it's at least interesting considering the fact that, you know, Spears reported earlier in the summer that Tatum was recruiting Dame. I've been saying Boston should go after him since those rumors started in July. They can put together an interesting offer at the least. The sellers can trade up to four first round picks, two and 24, one in 26, one in 2030. They have eight second round picks they can deal. in the future. It's tough to come up with the money, but they could do it.

Brogden, Robert Williams, Peyton Pritchard, Luke Cornett, Sam Houser, Jordan Walsh. Walsh was just an early second round draft pick that some teams had ranked as a first rounder. So, really, like, five first round picks, plus a young guy in Robert Williams. Maybe you flip

him to Phoenix in the Aiton situation. I don't think the offer is better than what the Raptors could do or what some other teams can do, but I do think it's better than what the heat could do. And that's... Well, there's no better player than Hero in that deal. Yeah, but it's not about how a player's valued in a vacuum. It's about how they're valued to the Portland Trailblazers.

Hero does not have a lot of value to the Blazers. They are invested in Shaden Sharp. They have young players in that back court. Hero just doesn't make sense for that team. He's redundant. That's why they're so adamant about trying to flip him elsewhere. And by the way, if Hero had a lot of value league-wide, he would have been flipped for multiple first round draft picks.

Teams don't see the value a hero at this point. He's been a dud in the playoffs other than his bubble series against the Celtics. He has not produced. They went to the finals without him. He didn't play. He didn't pay fairness. And they didn't want him back because they were better off without him. He has been a dud in the playoffs since the bubble.

Hold on now. Did they not want him back or they didn't want him back if they could get Damien Liller? No, no, no. I'm saying in the finals. In the finals, they did not want him back. Well, he had been out for a little. long time. Of course, but if you really needed him, you really, you would have brought

him back and tried him on a limited basis. I mean, who knows if he could even contribute? Here, here, look, dude, I mean, listen. The guy's one six man of the year and he's 21 years old or something. I know, but I know. He's had success in the regular season. He's also been a dud in the playoffs. He's

twice less than 23 years old, Kevin? I understand. I get your point. You don't understand. Yeah, I do get your point. guys. How can you judge this guy? This guy has had more success under 23 than a lot of guys having their whole careers. He's been a good player in the regular season. And all I'm saying is that for Portland, he is a redundant player. I don't disagree. I don't have a problem with if Portland doesn't want him. I'm saying he is the best asset even. He's better than anything

that you just named for the Celtics. A bunch of late first round picks and stuff that won't make me any better anyway? Maybe. I mean, it depends on how you feel about Robert Williams, like an elite room protector, an elite at-room finisher. You could argue for Portland, again, you could argue for Portland, having Robert Williams would be more value, or for Portland, sending Robert Williams and Brogden to Phoenix to get DeAndre Aiton is more valuable. That's where the argument is rooted is what makes sense for Portland.

In a vacuum, yes, Hero is a better player than Robert Williams. But for the Portland Trailblazers, what are there? needs moving forward. How do they want to optimize Scoot Henderson, Shaden Sharp, and the young guys they have on their roster? That's really the question there. And also, who do you want to bet against more in terms of the draft picks that you're getting in the distant future? Is it about betting against Boston or betting against Miami? That's part of it as well. Yeah, I just, I mean, it would be, I don't understand. I'll never understand. And look, they've had a lot of success. They've gotten to where they've gotten. I'll never understand why.

they are so dead set on having Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum along with a point guard that doesn't just set the table instead of always just whether, I mean, from Kyrie Irving to Isaiah Thomas to Dennis Schrooter to Mike, they never, they always have like these like shoot first point guards. and I know that there is not a tremendous amount of set the table point guards out there, but when you've got those two guys and they're so lethal, I have always found it strange that they've never just had a guy that just kind of gets it all running. I actually thought they were a great Chris Paul team. I thought that would be very good for them, especially when they're losing Marcus Smart in the process. And obviously they've, you know, the reports are that Brogdon's going to go somewhere.

Like he's going to, they're going to move him somewhere. And so maybe it will be. Who knows? But it sounds like. It's unlikely. It's unlikely. It's unlikely. Improbable. But it's just at least noteworthy that they're on that list.

Something's happening very quickly. We only got a week until that timeline. If those executives are right and I would imagine they probably are, then they want this thing done by the time they go to Media Day so that they're talking about Scoot Anderson and the future of the franchise and all that rather than having this hanging over. And so that's one week from today that that would take place. They could also just be putting pressure on it trying to escalate things and then they end up

dragging it into the season, which could end up happening. I think I think I'd want it to be done with it too. I'd want it to be. I totally wanted to be settled. I don't want it to be settled. I don't want the whole media day if I'm a team to be about that. I mean, that's not that important to me. I just want to get it done just to have it done and have my guys and move forward.

The media day stuff, like, whatever. No, no, no, no, no. But I'm saying you're starting training camp. And it's like we're starting training camp off on a bad foot with a disenchanted player who is our franchise is, you know, one of our best players ever who's going to have his name in the Raptors. And it's all just weird. It's about getting the best offer, though. That's the end goal.

That's what matters most. That's the only thing that matters. Well, they've had a long time to get an offer together. I mean, that thing broke a long time ago. All right, we got things that we are going to look forward to this upcoming NBA season, in honor of us beginning our eighth season on the mismatch. Here are eight things. You want to go first or second?

I'll go first. All right. Go ahead. I'll let's get the most obvious one out of the way, aside from where's Damien Loire going to play. The most obvious one, Victor Webb-Benayama. I just cannot wait to watch Wemby with this Spurs team that I've been high on for a long time with Devin Vassell, Keldon Johnson, Jeremy Sohan, Jones in their backcourt. They have so much talent up and down their roster, Malachi Burnham, and now you insert the greatest prospect that we've seen since LeBron James. Victor Webbenyama, 7'3, elite room protector, dynamic, versatile offensive preference.

I'm just excited to see the way this all clicks together now that eyeballs are going to be on the Spurs. I think they're going to be this year's team that people look at and say, oh, it's not just Wemby there. They have a heck of a lot of talent and good things are happening in San Antonio and they're built to win for a long, long, long time. Do you think he is going to be immediately awesome? Defensively, yes, offensively, I'm not so sure. Offensively, it's going to depend a lot on the efficiency of his jumper. He's on a trajectory where there's been improvement every year. His free throw percentage has risen over 80%.

He's become a 40 plus percent guy from mid-range. Will the three-point percentage rise? That's a big question there. How is he defended in pick and rolls? Can he make teams pay when they switch on ball screens against him with post-ups? Those are the questions I have. But I think he's going to be good offensively. Will he be amazing offensively?

I mean, that's a challenging question. but I do think he's going to make an immediate impact on that defense, especially because defense is five. It's about five players working together, and I like the other pieces that they have together. I think he is going to be immediately awesome. 20 plus points for a game type of awesome. I just don't understand who guards.

I mean, I get it. Guys are going to try to be physical, but you've really been able to focus on him in a way. I think in a lot of the scenarios that we have seen. him so far. And they've got other good players on that team. And so I think that like his first time through, I think there's going to be some getting used to.

He'll have some duds. But he'll also have some monster games as well, like quickly. I really believe that. And you watch a lot of these bigs. There's so many face-up bigs in the league. Like how many guys are roughing him up? And that's what I mean, that's what you got to do.

do. Like, try to be really physical with him. And I just don't know how many guys are roughing him up. Look, in the anniversary today of Vince Carter's dunk over Frederick Weiss, which, if it didn't happen on video, and then you just saw it, you'd be like, is that like CGI? Like, Victor Wembeama has the only play I've seen that I thought was fake. that I thought it was a video trip. Unbelievable. I thought it was spliced.

The guy followed dunk a missed three. Oh, I remember you saw the vertical video first where it shows him missing the three and then it cuts. Yes. And then it shows him. Yeah, that's right.

I'm like, there's no way that's the same play. Unbelievable. Sure enough. It was the same play. And so, yeah, I'm excited to. He is.

Now, sometimes we become prisoner of the moments. I went out of my way to watch Zion, too. So, you know, we, we act. I know that you said he is the best prospect since LeBron, according to a tremendous amount of people, right? But I do think we kind of forget about the Zion thing. Like, everybody went out of their way to watch Zion at Duke. And I was sitting there as a team that was the recipient of the second draft pick.

that I cover, the Grizzlies, that night when it went to break and they were either going to get one or two. I mean, that was the Zion draft. And it was like, oh, my God. And now, obviously, you know, move forward for years. And it's quite interesting the way it's all played out. But Zion Williamson, and he never, he was never not awesome when he played. The guns and buns draft. Yeah, they kind of unbelievable.

All right. Number one on my list was season of big name trades. So I think that we're going to get Lillard, we're going to get hardened. That's two Hall of Famers. And we've spent an inordinate amount of time talking about those. But I just jotted down as I was going through, like names you already hear that like could, I don't want to say likely for all of them, but certainly a possibility. You had already mentioned DeRosen. DeRosen is, you know, coming upon a contract.

like he'll he could be on the move. Wouldn't it be interesting if that was part of the play? What you were saying, a homecoming for him along with Lillard, if they're really buddies. Maybe the guy could pull off both, right? They are buddies. And that's one thing that makes the Chicago aspect interesting. They're friends, those two. Yeah, but I'm saying you said the agent.

And what if we had a little DeRosen homecoming and you get a new back court there? Oh, get him back in Toronto? Yeah, yeah. Wow. And that's the convince, right? Anyways, De Rosen or Levine? So you got that thing with the Bulls that's going to be hanging out there, right? That's interesting.

And that's two big names, De Rosen and Levine, that could end up, you know, a decision from them. Towns, obviously, massive name, who knows the way it's going to play out in Minnesota. They're going to make a choice. Whether that means moving Gobert, whether that means moving towns, towns much more likely. given that he's been there a long time, and his huge contract kicks in next year. Now, that may make him hard to deal, but they're going to make a decision on that. They're not just going to write it out if it's not working again, because offensive rating with Townsend and Gobert on the court at the same time was putured last year.

I don't think there's any reason that that's going to change dramatically, and so that'll be one. Brogden, you mentioned, like, some of these are not huge names. Jared Allen, another one that I could see get moved with just given the way that played and how bad they got punked out in the playoffs by the Knicks, how pitiful he was, and also, you know, the fact that we don't think that that works, you know, with those two in the front court. So that's an awesome rim running, like super energetic, you know, They had an All-Star season, basically, recently.

And so I could see them breaking that up to try to figure out a better fit next to Mowgli. You've got the Trey and DeJante thing. You know, they finally have a coach there that, like, he's not going to be to blame. They're not blaming Quinn Snyder. So now we're going to see it play out for a little bit. But what are the chances that that backcourt sticks together? They're both fantastic players, for sure. But are they going to be fantastic, like, together?

I would hedge against that, for sure. And Quinn Snyder will have a lot of say in whatever they do there. This has not been talking about a lot either. Paul George and Kauai. As of today, neither have signed extensions. I was waiting for you to mention them. Yeah. And, I mean, those are monster, monster names that they've got that new arena coming

up and they're going to have to, they've got a decision to make. And so if you're not going to resign them, is it just get assets for them time? And I think you get a ton of assets for George, for sure. But I don't even know what kind of assets you can get for Kauai if you wanted to just say to hell with that,

we're done with the Kauai thing. I really don't know. Chris Paul, if that doesn't work with the Warriors, expiring contracts, 30 plus million. Very tradable. And they have young players. They could pair it with them too. Caminga, draft picks.

They could get very creative. Kyrie, if it's not going good with Luca, 30 games in, you know, they retained the asset, but they're not going to screw around with the Luca thing at this point. And so there's one. And obviously, you never know.

I mean, you never know with. Kyrie. And then I think you've got your beloved Pelicans with Zion and Ingram. If they both play at the same time, obviously you've got a column there too. Like, what are they doing? Where are they going from here? Because

he got Valentunis too. I think he's going to be on an expiring. It's another guy on that team. And so that one, they've never really had them both playing at the same time for an extended amount of time. It's only been one or the other. And I do think

they'll probably make a decision on that. So I just think there could be, you know, I know this new CBA's coming up, but I mean, I think there could be a lot of big names moving around and a lot of teams altering themselves possibly dramatically. And it starts like right before the season starts with the Lillard and Hardin thing.

And then those were just, I mean, obviously I didn't name that many guys. but that was just like as I looked at the teams and jotted down names that I think are real possibilities. Jeez, man. And you're talking about moving a lot of guys. Like there's a lot of movement with those guys if like Towns moves. And then, oh, by the way, let's say the hardened things at DePocle, whether they can't find a trade for him and Darrell digs his heels in like you did on the Simmons thing.

or they don't get some kind of great return that really helps them, now you got the whole Embed crap. And that's going to be hanging out there. Because much like the Luca thing, they don't have time to screw around with it. Because these guys now, they just want to be in the best situation they can be in. And ones that are worth their salt want a real chance at winning.

and if they lose faith in the management, wherever they are, we know you are, you're a week away from them saying, hey, get me out of here. And then you got a whole other problem underhand. So anyways, I just think there's going to be a bunch of big names

that are both on the block and moving this season. For my second one, I'll play off one of the names you mentioned in there, Jared Allen. And one of the things I'm most looking forward to this season, season is will Evan Mobley expand on his offense? We've seen him be, you know, more effective near the rim, but last season he shot 22% from 3, 36% from midrange. I don't think it's going to work for the Cavs unless Mobley is able to evolve very quickly on offense. And I've

had my question since pre-drafts. If he has that in him as a perimeter score, largely due to a lack of touch, a sub-70% free throw percentage for him. I have questions if the ability's there, he may just be more of an interior guy without a perimeter game. He hasn't shown it in two years. I worry about that fit with Mobley and Allen of the front court. So I think that relates to what you said about Jared Allen is a guy who could move. I don't think they would ever move Mobley.

Allen's the guy that they would move. But the other side of that is with Mitchell and Garland and the back court together. two small guards. There's a lot of overlap with that Cavaliers roster with two tiny guards in the back court, two non-shooters in the front court. You know, you add Max Struz, I'm sorry, but Max Struz isn't going to turn you

into a championship contender. I think Cleveland is a team that's going to have to make a move unless Evan Mowgli really, really takes a leap. So he's one of the guys I'm most looking forward to watching this season to see if that development ends up happening. Well, he is a great defender. and I think you just move I think you just look

if he's not going to be able to knock down shots then he's just he's a center and now you find me a stretch for that can do some bully him because I do think you just move Mowgli over there and I think Struz will really help them they just needed somebody that can knock down

an open shot Chris the one thing about that though is I mean if you're Cleveland just like in the West you have to think about Yokritch if you're Cleveland in the east you need to think about in Bede. You still need a beefy five to be a B&B matchup.

Unless you can pull him away. I mean, when you're on defense, though, and maybe there's nothing you can do about those guys with Yokic. Like, that's what the sons are thinking with Yokic. It's like, clearly if they're devaluing Ait and then are willing to move him for

a cheaper center, who might be worse in a vacuum, it's because they know there's no answer for him. There's no answer for Yokic. Just like in the east, maybe you give up some size against Embed because you're having more benefit elsewhere by pulling him out, wearing him down, going at him on defense. And maybe that's the solution for the Cavs. But yeah, Mowgli entering year three, this is a big one for him and the Cavaliers.

It's huge, especially given the Mitchell contract situation, all that they gave up for him. This is a pivotal season, a turning point. All right. Next one for me is the Phoenix Experiment. This is, look, you've obviously got the fantastic players that are all on the roster together. But beyond that, it is another case of an owner taking over and then just opening up the pocketbook and dumping the money into the deal. And we have seen, and I know that he has said, you know, I'm not like Proker Raw. It's not going to be like Proker Ra or something.

But like we've seen this same act over and over again. Most of the time to poor results. It'll be, it's not just Broker off. Guess who else went bonkers with the money that they had once they got their team? Steve Balmer did. I mean, you could go to the NFL. Dan Snyder did back in the day when he was throwing $100 billion at Albert Hainsworth and crap like that. And you have most recently this guy that bought the Mets.

and was so boisterous about it. You know, even on the Twitter and whatnot, Steve Cohen. And, like, they had a fire sale this year. Like, but he just, he was just going to outspend you. That's what it was. He was going to outspend you. I'm going to have the best players. And then we'll pay whatever tax you want us to pay and whatever else.

And so you got a lot of these guys that, like, are going to make the big splash. This one is so super fascinating. I don't know how Beal is going to fit with Durant and Booker. It's an odd fit. Just given what their careers have been thus far, you're going to see what they look like without Chris Paul, who was really running that show for them. And then, more importantly, along with Aiton,

you go up and down and we've just never seen anything like this. It's like DeAndre Aiton, 32 million. Kada Bates Diop. 2 million. Bradley Beal, 46 million. Bull, bull, 2 million. Devin Booker, 36 million. Drew Eubanks, 2.3 million.

Jordan Goodwood, 1.9 million. Kevin Durant, 47 million. Damian Lee, 2.5 million. It's like these massive 30-plus billion-dollar salaries, and then just a bunch of dudes that make 2.5 million. million bucks. And I don't know if that's, we'll see. They did a much better job of filling out that roster with one and two million

dollar players than I would have ever thought they could. So I give them a lot of credit on that. But how much of it is it, is it, what do they do with the Aitin thing? Is that going to be, is that going to be what they use in order to bolster around those other guys? And it's just, it's so fascinating. We never, we never really seen anything like this. It's just like a middle finger to the whole new structure.

And I know they, you know, they got their second round picks back and all that stuff. But you've just got a bunch of huge salaries and then a bunch of nothing salaries. And then you've got these four, you know, fantastic all-star caliber players, obviously two of them. I would say, I'd say Booker and Durant, Hall of Fame level players. And then, you know, Beal's been a consistent All-Star, Aiton's, you know, he's right there on the cusp, all-star caliber. I don't know what's going to happen with it. I really don't. I don't know.

And I don't know if Frank Vogel is like the right thing, right coach for the, I don't know. It's all fascinating to me. The one thing I disagree with what you said in there is the Beal fit. Beal pre, you know, 30 point pro game scorer, Beal, was an off ball guy. And he was very good at cutting, moving without the ball, coming off screens and handoffs. I like the theoretical version of it if Beal taps into that old version of himself. And like the guy he's been ever since he signed his big contract in Washington, uninspiring on defense, his offensive efficiency has dropped dramatically

ever since he was a 30 point per game guy. I have questions there, but the old version of him, I hope he taps more into that next to Devin Booker and Kevin Durant's. And I think they could be pretty, at the least, they're going to be fun to watch.

You want him to be Ray Allen. Yeah, he's the guy who's going to have to sacrifice the most behind Booker and Kevin Durant, yes, for sure. And can he be, can he thrive in that role? I think so. Look, I mean, he made,

he made 300, 400, hundred million dollars he'd think so right he's made man and you know he had his chance to be the guy and now he doesn't have to be the guy where it's all hanging on him he's the guy on all the billboards and he's the guy that you know he's the best player on a team and is expected to carry the load every single night like that was once the plight of ray allen and then he went and teamed up with uh paul pierce and he went and teamed up with kevin garnett and he was able and and ron and ron Do for that matter, and he was able to star in his role. And maybe people could do that, right?

But that whole Phoenix thing, the whole new ownership. And then that's going to be so fun. It's just a, it is a, it is a crazy ledger to look at. Really. Like, it's all, like, I don't even know, like, outside of Aiton, it's like the only thing that you could, like, move to, like, improve it and will they? because he could probably, there's another one, by the way, another name I can absolutely see going elsewhere

and being, playing a much bigger role for somebody else and getting a lot more touches for somebody else, which is what he wanted. That's why he wanted to go to Indiana in the first place. Next up on my list is, what type of system does Nick Nurse install for the Sixers? I'm most looking forward to that

because I think this is going to dictate a lot of what they can be with or without Hardin. If Nick Nurse brings in some motion concept, It gets Maxine Embed in the move, gets Embed into more creative position, steals a little bit of what the nuggets do with Yokic, steals some of what the kings do with Subonis, a little bit of what the bucks do with Yonis, just little sprinkles of that with Embed's own version of it. He's not the playmaker that Yonich is, and he's not the downhill attacker that Yonis is, but he can do some of that stuff. and I would just like to see some more creative offensive actions for him and for Tyrese Maxie, because Maxi is one of the best offball players in the entire NBA. He's constantly active.

He never stops moving. And I would like to see him fully empowered in that role. One of his trainers this offseason, Drew Hanlon, had some tweet or something he said on a podcast I saw last week saying, I'd be surprised or disappointed if Maxi doesn't average 25 points per a game this season. Maybe that's setting the bar a little high, and it might also depend on if James Hardin comes back. But he just did average 20.3 points per game last season,

after averaging 17.5D or prior. So it's not unfathomable that he could reach 25 points per game if he's getting 17, 18, 19 shots per game. And I think Maxi's ready for that. He's a knockdown shooter. He's a good downhill attacker. If the right system is around those guys, I think it could elevate that Sixers team as a whole.

I just look forward to seeing how they evolve. It's also going to be fascinating to see if he can get out of MB what Doc did. Doc did not get the credit, I think, that he deserved. He could keep it real with Embed. Now, obviously, they had their playoff failings, but the guy did win the MVP. Chris, you just said it. They had their playoff feelings. I get it.

Scoring efficiency fell off a cliff in the playoffs. His scoring volume fell off a cliff. I get it. You could put some blame on Embed, but also. the offensive system is to blame for that too with how stale and stagnant it got. I get it, but you also have an MB that wanted to be, like, had this huge chip on his shoulder about, you know, being ranked behind other guys, not winning the MVP, Yokic winning it, and, like, cared so deeply about winning it and being, you know, first team all NBA and all this stuff.

And it's like, what happens when you achieve that, right? Like, do you have that same hunger to come back and be the best player in the league? Is that, does that remain? Or, you know, and can a coach get it out of you, you know, when sometimes it's not going to. And look, I guess, look, we did it with Brett Brown too. So, is it all the coaches? You got a nut up, bro. I agree.

I agree. You got a nut up. I agree. And B and B needs to be better. And then it was and then it was Doc Rivers. Like now it's going to be Nick Nurse's fault. Listen, listen, I'm not, I'm not being some Joel and Bid apologists here. I'm just going to preface what I'm about to say. And B needs to be better.

He needs to be better. Period. End of story. He individually needs to be better regardless of what the circumstances are around him. When you look at his numbers, regular season in the last three years in the Docker, he's averaged 30.9 points, 3.8 assists. shooting 55.1 effective field goal. I mean, the guy's dominant.

And then in the playoffs with three years under dog, 30 total games, that's dipped from 30.9 points to 25.3. His three point percentage has dropped from 35.9 to 27.5. His two point percentage has dropped from 55.4 to 53.1. Across the board, he goes from having a positive assist turnover ratio to a negative assist turnover ratio. He needs to be better. but also part of that is system environment dealing with the Ben Simmons factor before

with teams ignored him during the playoffs whereas during the regular season it was less of a factor. Sixers' offenses were incredibly potent. Part of it is the system with how stagnant Doc Rivers' offensive offenses became with the lack of adjustment. So Embed does deserve blame, but it's not all on him, which is why I introduced this conversation here with how does Nick Nurse install the, offense because to me it's so much about that what does nurse do with this team and how does he empower and be in new creative ways that allow him to maintain his elite regular season play into the postseason

and we're going to find that out pretty early on like we're going to know in october november december what that sixer system is going to look like and if it's stagnant stagnant stagnant stagnant i'm not going to be high on them at all come postseason time they need to evolve they need to take what's worked with Janice and the bucks, they want a title. You need to take what worked with Yonkich and the Nuggets, they want a title. And the Kings, granted, they get blasted in the first round. There's elements to take

from what works with Subonis, because if it works with Sub bonus, it can work with that bead for damn well for them. So I just want to see a more dynamic in B that can be the MVP of the playoffs and not just regular season, big numbers, Guy. You brought up coaches. I also have, or

Nick Nurse, I've also got, it's my third one, the new coaches. these are super fascinating. So you have a combination of teams that tanked it out, and then like always, the guys that had to take all the losses, as soon as it starts to get good, they don't reap any of the benefits from it.

They just take all the losses, and then they kick them to the side. And so as soon as you're able to win, and there'll be some other guys like that too, like Mosley and Orlando, probably the next one, right? He took the losses, and then he's not going to get to reap the benefits of it once it finally gets good.

But anyway, Monty Williams takes over in Detroit, and it's not like it's gotten good, but they're a young, exciting team that now has, you know, a much better-looking roster with Cunningham coming back than they did. And they were a team that we were going to go out of our way to really pay attention to last year. And then once a Cade injury hit, it just went to hell. Imae Odoca in Houston. We have not seen him since he was on the sideline.

for Boston. He did a very good job with Boston. They've got a good roster and a good combination of young players and some vets that they brought in. And so you've got that one where he's got the opportunity to take that over and they could have a massive improvement from where they were last year. And then the other ones, which are the teams that are expected to win or be very good. And they replace their guys. So the aforementioned Doc Rivers run out. now it's going to be Nick Nurse.

And he's got to take that job, but he's got to win. His old job, which we don't know, is that going to be a win now job or a rebuild job? I thought they hired Darko from the Grizzlies, Rejakovich, to be like a player development type coach, right? To usher in whatever the next era of Raptors basketball is. I mean, if they're training for Dame Lillard, that's a different job than that is. So we'll see. Monty Williams gone in Phoenix, where they won 60-something games and made it to an NBA finals. And now it's Frank Vogel, who we last saw on the Laker sideline.

And who knows how Frank Vogel is going to work with that group. That is not who the players went out of their way to rep. when it was coaching hiring time. And so we'll see how they take to Frank Vogel. And then the biggest one, by far, by far is Millwall. We have never seen Adrian Griffin on the sideline. Rookie head coach. And say whatever you want about butt.

Say whatever you want about his playoff failings and that miserable exit that they had to Miami. My boot nozer has been a great NBA. head coach record-wise and has given you a chance to have a good seed and have a good opportunity in the playoffs. And he did win an NBA championship. And you have the whole Yonis thing that's hanging out there. And what once was, you know, Dirk did it and Tim Duncan did it. And that's what I want to do in Milwaukee has now turned more into, I've got to look at what's

the best opportunity to win and this kind of stuff. And so you've already got to got that hanging out there. Like they have to be right about firing bud. And like if that team takes a big step back because they've replaced Mike Boodenholzer with Adrian Griffin, then that's going to tell us a lot about an NBA future for that team that we fancy as a NBA finals contender and for that player, who is obviously one of the greatest players of this entire generation and whether or not he's there for the long haul. I just think they have to be right about that.

And it's fascinating to me that they got rid of a guy who won a tremendous amount of games and an NBA title there. And I understand all the criticisms of Boonehoser. But you replace him with a guy that's zero and zero. And that's not saying that that's a mistake. But it might be. You know, we wouldn't be saying it if they, hired some guy that has a great track record and has won at the highest level.

Like, you're not going to have a coach. It's going to be coaching in his first playoff game when he was doing. And sometimes it works out. Ema O'Dokoha worked out for the Celtics, right? You know? And he took over. Brad was a great coach for them. And Ema took over.

And so I think you've got to hope if you're a Milwaukee fan that Adrian Griffin is like Udoca was in Boston and that that roster is just going to win. And it wasn't Budenhalser or the system or the environment. But I think he's a very good coach. And I do think they had a very good culture in Milwaukee. And so it's a risk. There's no way around it. I'll play off that from my fourth and final one here.

Because what I had on my list is, are we at a point where the contenders that we talk about every year are beginning to change? The stars that are in contention are beginning to change. beginning to change because we have a lot of aging teams. You have the Lakers, the Warriors, the Clippers, the Sons even with Kevin Durant at his age, the Bucks at this point with Brooke Lopez and Chris Middleton and Drew Holiday are getting older, the heat, Butler's older, these contending teams that we've known for years now that we've talked about, oh, they could win the finals, is that beginning to change at this point where it becomes the nuggets becoming a dynasty

potentially? Is it about the Kings taking a leap? Is it about the Grizzlies getting better once they get job back? Is it surprise teams? Like is it Zion figuring things out? And the Pelicans become a team that's like a top seat in the Western Conference. Is it

teams like that, do the Thunder get better? Do the Mavericks take a leap with Luca? Does he become an MVP? Does Kyrie work out? Do they have an amazing offense? Do the teams that we talk about is most likely to win the finals? Is it dramatically different this year?

Or is it going to be some of the same old names that we've talked about for years now? Because I think this could be the year where that shifts entirely. Well, and Kevin, just to play off of that, to your point, think about this. In the Easter conference, who knows what happens with Lither, right? Okay. But you have a lot of moves that could alter things dramatically from what is the what has been understood, which is Philly's going to be there, Boston's going to be there, Milwaukee's going to be there, and it's like, Milwaukee's got a new coach.

And Boston moved off of Marcus Smart, now has Chris Stavs-Forsengis there, and now has Joe Missoula, you know, coached that whole squad again with different players than what has been the core of that team for so long and has won a tremendous amount of games together. And Philly, who the hell knows, if they're going to have Hardin, if there's going to be a good return for Hardin that helps them with, like, and those were ones that you could just like kind of pencil in. They're going to be good. They're going to be good.

They're going to be good. Like, as the favorite, I think it's actually a little more stable in the, in the West. At least like most of these teams have their same coach, right? But Denver, I'm not kidding you. You could say, how many teams could you say second and make a case for? A lot of teams in the West. At least six or seven that wouldn't be absurd? I mean, I think the top four, in my opinion, and no order is Denver, Phoenix, Lakers, Warriors.

I still think the Warriors and Lakers are going to be super competitive despite their age, especially in the Lakers. You mean at the end of the season, not at the end. the seeding. You don't think those are going to be. I mean, I don't know about seating. I have no idea. Regular season. I mean, it could be one or two games,

difference, games missed. I don't know. Like, the Kings had 48 wins last year and they were the three seed. The Timberwolves had 42 and they were the eight. Like, it's just so, so close between some of those teams. No, no, no, no, no.

What I'm saying is those aren't going to be the top four seeds. Like, I just don't think they're going to care enough about the regular season. I have no idea about seating. I don't know. You just mean at the end of the year. Yeah, I think if you're power-ranking the teams regardless of wins, who were the four best teams in the West, I'd pick those four, yes, which is not a hot take at all. It's a pretty mild take, really. Then has that changed from last year, what you would have said?

No. Some people would argue the Kings last year. What? Before the season? No, no, I said, no, I'm saying during the season, like before the playoffs, end of the year. Oh, no. certainly not that not the odds makers wouldn't right and i'm and i'm not sure everybody had denver's top four before the season last year either a lot of people had clippers went in the

final so i don't know why you trust them anymore no that's a tough one to trust well and number four what i'm most looking forward to is you and i doing Thursday night podcast where two stars played in the same game let's go baby i am so looking at forward to how this works out. This also could, though, to your point about like the aging contenders could have even a more profound impact on the health one way or another of these teams when we get to the end. I don't know if sitting these guys out for rest has been helpful or hurtful for them. I know there's an old school feeling of, hey, you need to keep doing it.

You need to build your body up to be able to withstand this. That's why guys have these problems is because they don't practice and play and do all these things as much as they used to. I don't know what's true, what's not. And the science is kind of all over the place. But you've got a lot of organizations that have put health sciences right on the forefront and have made it the most important thing. And it has hurt the product dramatically. And Adam Selver has stepped in.

And they have made rules to where now you can get the biggest boat of cash. If you don't play, you cannot get the awards if you don't play. And are there going to be a lot fewer injuries now? Because there are now reasons to play that may be. be you would have sat out an extra week or two. You wouldn't have been pressuring your training staff to get back on the court. But now you want to make sure that you get to that 65 games. And so I think it's going to be interesting to see what kind of effect.

Does this increase injuries? Does this decrease injuries? And then people are going to say, oh, it's just a coincidence. Some years I have injuries. Some years don't. But have guys just been sitting out for phony-ass reasons? anyway, you know, or sitting out maybe a lot longer than they necessarily would have. Or I twisted my ankle on Monday and now I'm not going to play until Saturday.

And so I'll miss the Thursday night game against or the Wednesday game against Charlotte and the Friday game against Indiana. But because I want to be ready for the Laker game on Saturday, you know, I want to see what kind of impact this has. and how many guys this actually affects. And then if there's some huge debate at the end of the year about, you know, all it's going to take is one likable guy to play 64 games and not get to be first team all NBA and people are going to go bat shit crazy. You know what I mean?

Yeah. If Yokic misses 18 games for some, you know, Godforsaken reason, you know, and obviously he's not one that would sit out for anything other than an entreezy. but God forbid somebody like that, like that he's universally respected and loved, or Curry or LeBron for that matter, or whoever. And they play 64 games, they play 62 games, and they're not able to get the award.

Nobody's able to vote them for the stuff. Then it's, I mean, it's just going to be a thing all year long. But I'm hopeful that because of the fines about resting and the threats from the league about resting, but more importantly, the 65 game number, are we going to have a lot more of the best players play more games than we have ever gotten used to seeing them play the last five years?

I'd bet yes, wouldn't you? I'd bet yes, we do get more. We get more stars playing on Thursday nights. I hope so. Yeah, I know. It'd be great. Last regular season sucked. Just for us especially.

I'm like, no, just the whole thing did anyway. I go to 41 home games a year. It sucked. And by the way, I was getting to watch the second, I've been to terrible seasons.

They had the second best record at the Western Conference. So it wasn't like, I mean, I wasn't watching good basketball most of the time. It was just, whether it was the home team or the visiting team,

you never knew who was playing that night. It was a crap shoot. Literally every night. You went to the arena. And that's just not how it should be at all. And so I'm hopeful. I'm very hopeful. I think there's a lot to look forward to it.

I think I'm very hopeful about this upcoming season. I do think we've got so many amazing players. I go through the schedule I was looking at it the other night. There's very few teams I don't want to see in person. In person. All of them. Like I'm saying like. It's something interesting from every team, Chris, every single team.

I think that's true. I think that's true. And I don't think, I think there's really only going to be two bad teams. Okay, Washington. And I know even, I know you could find a silver lining, but,

I mean, the Wizards could play in my backyard and I wouldn't raise the blind. Who cares? What a rat team. That's one of my favorite Vernoism. Yeah. Who is?

And I don't really know, I think, them and is there anybody else I thought was going to be terrible? But I think there were two teams. I'm not kidding. That I thought like wouldn't compete. Yeah, because Charlotte could probably compete

this year. I mean, they're going to try to at least for a while. Houston's trying to compete. Yeah, there's no obvious like we're going to suck this year team. Yeah. It's a lot of competitive teams. Well, Washington. I mean, they're going to suck.

They're going to be terrible. Other than that, I think pretty much everybody else is going to compete, at least at the beginning, for a good little while. Oh, Portland. Portland is not, I mean, look, they're not going to be non-competitive, but they're on a trajectory where it's like, hey, they're going to let Scoot take his lumps, and they're probably, they're not going to be a playoff. Unless they don't trade damn, and we'll see. Oh, yeah, I guess. I mean, then again, they sucked with them, though. Yeah, they had them last year.

Yeah. All right. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. By next week, we are going to be to the opening of the season, at least for preseason, because by next Wednesday, there's going to be preseason games. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez, as always. Kev, I'll talk to you next week. Have a good week.

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