The Mismatch - Embiid Scores 70, KAT Drops 62 (But Loses), and Risers Across the NBA

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

Verno and KOC discuss Joel Embiid’s dominant 70-point performance against the Spurs, and debate what the Sixers need to fully capitalize on Embiid’s monster season (01:05). Despite a 62-point effort from Karl-Anthony Towns, the Timberwolves lost to the Hornets as the guys explain why this loss highlights what Minnesota needs the most (19:25). Also, after winning eight straight, are the Cavs among the true contenders in the East (30:03)? If they continue to win without Evan Mobley or Darius Garland, would Cleveland entertain trade offers for either player? The guys then discuss the Bucks' interest in Dejounte Murray, the importance of the next two weeks of the season, and why you should be paying attention to the Knicks (38:27). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Did Don Draper really buy the world of Coke? Did Tony Soprano really die? Or just order more onion rings? The finales of our favorite shows can make us argue, make us cry, and make us crazy. From Spotify and the Ringer, I'm Andy Greenwald, and this is Stick the Landing, a new podcast where we'll be telling the story of modern TV backwards, one fade out at a time. Find Stick the Landing on Wednesdays on the prestige TV feed, on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Monday night from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor,

aka Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Colm, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Colm, Kevin O'Chyl, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Fierre. What a night, man, for Biggs. Oh, for one of them at least. What a blessing. What a blessing for us to be recording on Monday night. And in the interest of full disclosure. We planned on recording this show much earlier, but we said we'd play it by ear. Never did we think that playing it by ear would be that we had to make sure we watched to the end of one guy scoring 70 and then couldn't start after that one because another guy might get to 70. Crazy. For the first time in over 45 years, we had, in fact, it was April 9th, 1978, where there were multiple 60-point games in the same night.

You had David Thompson with 73 and George Gervin with 63 on that night in 1978. but tonight we have Joel M. Bede with his 70 point performance and Carl Anthony Towns with his 62 point performance in unfortunately a loss as that will be a footnote there.

But let's start with the MBE thing. Goes up against the San Antonio Spurs. Wemby, so you know it's got the MBEed Wemby stuff. You got the funny clips that were going around from before the game where Embed like kind of walks up and he's behind Wenby is like looking up at him and whatever.

It is crazy when you see Embed walking by Victor Wenbaniama and then you realize how much bigger he is even than him. And, you know, obviously the we should have been crystal clear on that, given that photo of him and the 610 Marvin Bagley over the. the weekend where Bagley looks like a guard or something like that. But anyways, it starts off with that. You figure M.B. can probably have a good night against San Antonio because San Antonio has been the home to a lot of career highs and records over the last couple of years.

But this was so extreme, the 70 points. And even when you go back and watch the highlights to see a guy. of that size. I mean, the mid-range jumpers, I mean, just every, he had everything going tonight. And that was a blast to get to watch something as historic as that,

because it does not happen very often. The Spurs had literally no answers for Joella Bede. None. There's nothing that they could do. They had Victor Webbenyama on him at the start of games, and Bede was just mid-range, pull-ups, pounding in Bede, pounding Wembeen-Yama on.

underneath the rim and scoring inside. If he had two guys on him, like when Zach Collins came into the game, and he had two guys on him, it didn't matter. Sometimes he drove into the pain. He had three guys, bodies around him. He'd rebound the ball, put it back in. It did not matter. And if he was forced to pass the ball,

he was just throwing out assist and making his teammates better. He had five assists in the game. He had kind of like this crazy pass inside, Yokic-esque type of pass to a cutter, Ubre, at the rim. And B, there's just literally no answers at all. It was pure dominance. It was fun to watch. He was playing with joy.

It was so cool that it was at home in front of Sixers fans. Dude is just, I mean, I mean, he's just on an absolute role right now, man. Like, it's incredible to watch what he's doing. So 14 times in NBA history, we have seen somebody score 70 points. This coincidentally was on the anniversary of Kobe Bryant's 81. night, which is a crazy coincidence. But you had Wilt, obviously with 100, Kobe with 81, and then you go down the list, and it's Will, Will, Will, Will, David Thompson, Will, Elton Baylor had 71, David Robinson had 71,

David Robinson at 71 on the last day of the season to win the scoring title. Then we had Donovan Mitchell 71, Lillard 71, Wilt. Booker 70. And that's it. That's the list. Michael Jordan is next on the list with 69 points. That was his career high. It was Michael Jordan's.

Yeah. And then, of course, we had a Yana 64 earlier this year. But, you know, you take out all the, you know, obviously we're counting wilt is one guy that had several performances. It's only nine guys that have ever. done it in NBA history. You know, you got Wilk Kobe, David Thompson, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson,

Donovan Mitchell, Damian Lillard, Devin Booker, and now Joe Lombie. Unbelievable. Nine players in NBA history that have done it. And what's crazy to think about is I went and,

you know, once you go down that wormhole, you really go down that wormhole. Curry had a 62. I think the ones I'm most surprised that are like haven't gotten to that list or did not are Curry during his crazy run and Hardin during his craziest of runs. Curry's career high is 62, Hardens is 61. Then you think about all these other great scorers. How about Durant's? Durant's career high is 55.

He hasn't even gotten 60. I know. McGready had 62. Carmelo had 62. Carl Malone and Shaq both had 61. Bird and Iverson both had 60. Hmm. And then you got some weird 60s, you know, that you forget.

Kyrie, Brad Beal, Gilbert Arenas, Kemba Walker. I do not remember the Kimball Walker 60. I got to go back and check that one. I don't either. Jason Tatum. him had a 60. Yeah.

He's done there too. So, but you think about just how crazy rare. And we for sure could have gotten two in the same night. Towns had, what, 44 at half? 43 or 44 at half. So he could have really gotten there. Kind of gassed out in the fourth. Yeah, Townsend was out of that game in the middle.

Forty-forty-three at the half. Any- Granted, he ends with 62. Well, we'll get to his game. Let's finish on MB. There's more to say about Joel. Yeah, historical perspective, too. So we give you some of that.

Here's the other. Since Thanksgiving, they're now 16 and 2 when he plays. 30 plus and 21 straight game. And per 36 minutes, and this number will inevitably go up after a 70 point game tonight, so he might have overtaken it. Per 36 minutes, he is averaging the most points of anybody since Wilk Chamberlain in 1961, 62. Wow.

Per 36. Since December 1st, he is averaging 40, 12, and 5. His splits are 57% from the field, 42% from 3, 90% from the line. And that's from December 1st, you said? Yes, yes. What was the points per game number you had before tonight's game? 40. Let's say now it's at 42.6 per 36 minutes.

So it's, well, no, no, that's just per game. Just per game, not even per 30. Look, no, per game. Per game. Yeah, per game, regular numbers per game. He said 40.3 now. So it went up by 0.3.

Yeah, 4012 and 5. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for the season, he's averaging 36, 12, and 6 with two blocks of a steel. Mm-hmm.

And his splits are crazy there. 54, 3689? He's, this is a crazy season he's having. All right. Chris, look, this summer when they hired Nick Nurse, I wrote an article in the ringer about how like, okay, this could potentially open up new dimensions of Embed

if they install more motion in their offense and that they have more handoffs and more face-ups for Embed. I never saw this coming. Nobody could have seen Embed, except maybe Joel Embed and the people in his circle, could have seen him reaching this level. I mean, he's one of the best shooters in basketball, just like straight-up shooters, not just bigs who shoot, but one of the best shooters in basketball.

We see that with a 70-point game tonight where he's just pulling up with a hand in his face from three, from two. It doesn't matter. He's one of the best shooters from the free throw line. He's a guy above 80% near 90% over the stretch you're talking about. He's a dominant post-up guy, even though now he's isolating even more often than he post-ups,

post-ups, which he recently said about how that role has changed. He was once one of the heaviest post-up guys in the league by far. he still is, just not quite as heavy as it used to be, because he's isolating. It says he's looking at the basket and he's surveying the floor and he's making passes and creating for teammates. And Bid is, like, he wins an MVP and now he has tapped into this higher level of his game in part due to system and what is demanded of him and in part due to his own individual player development.

And I think for the Sixers, people keep saying. saying, like we did with Yokic, well, he needs to prove it in the postseason. He's got to show he can do it in the playoffs. This version of Joanne Lombid is prepared to do it in the postseason. He's answering a lot of those questions already, and now it just needs to translate, of course, but I have no reason to believe or doubt that Joanne Lambide won't be able to do this in the postseason, considering what he's turned himself into, which genuinely remarkable that he has had no complacency after all the success that he's went through. the MVP last year that now he has gotten even better as a talent. It's admirable, really. Well, and I think that why they've been so great, like that's why you've got to get him, they've got to get them one more guy so that these teams can't just sell out on him

when it comes to the playoffs. With doubles and triples. Yeah, and then say, we'll live. We'll live with it. Fine. If we lose to Kelly Ubrey and Nicholas Batum, then we lose to Kelly Ubray and Nicholas Barrett. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Have 20. Go ahead. Average 30 a game, Tobias Harris, because that's what you're going to have to.

But we're not going to let you have 70. No. In fact, we're not going to let you have 30. We'll dedicate there will be a guy in front of you and a guy behind you every time you touch the ball. Unless, that's why you need one more. They need one more. They got max. That's been a revelation. They need one more to go with those guys. How good does that one more need to be in European? Does it need to be like a. top 25 player or can it be someone you cannot leave you know what I'm saying but what level we talking like the names that are on the trade market right now like is there a guy that like is it like is it very expensive very pricey is it is it like who is it like who is it I'm just curious like how good is the player need to be I would say Levine level or better that fair yeah I think so Dejante Murray good?

Or is there too much overlap No, too much overlap. Uh-huh. So you want someone bigger. Someone, someone Tobias Harris size. Or, or,

or multiples. You know what I mean? And we talked about this, where you go snag a Bogdanovich and you snag a Bruce Brown even. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm saying,

like where you're, now I got, now I got two or three more guys. So now I'm more balanced out. where it doesn't necessarily, if you're not going to get one big one, then you need to get a couple more that you can go to the, I'm talking about when you're having to play.

And again, this is all at the end. This is when you're playing Milwaukee, this one you're playing Boston, this one you're playing Miami. Maybe when you're playing the Knicks, maybe when you're playing the Cavs, who knows?

What he needs is, like, Yokic has, has Jamal Murray and Bede has Tyrese Maxi. Both of them have a lot of good role players, but Yokic has Aaron Gordon, and he has Michael Porter Jr. And Porter is somebody who can catch fire.

Gordon is somebody that we saw him beat up mismatches, or he can play the standard role player stuff, hustling on defense, making connect the passive spot up shooting. But he can also create with the post-ups against smaller guys. And Bid needs, like, I think, those secondary weapons that you're talking about. He's got the

role players. He's got an action. I need that piece. And those guys are super role players too. Oh, yeah. Like the guys I was just talking about, like the, I'm talking about like Donovich and Brown

and that kind of guy. Like, you could, you could throw together a group of guys like you, you're still going to be playing through him and Maxie. Right? So I don't need somebody that's going to come in there and take 20 shots. No.

You need somebody who can take 20 shots. Yeah, to strengthen it all around it. You know, and I mean, he is just, been out of control great so far this year. And I could not help but think, Kevin, as this was going on, and we're all sitting there just totally enthralled. And I'm thinking, 70 points. This is a signature

night. Look at this season he's having. Guys missed what? 11 to 42. And I told you the beginning of the season. This will last one season. Somebody will get screwed. There will be a riot over this. If he doesn't get to 65, because he has not been like injured, injured. And he's missed 11 of 42. And this is all in the honor of, you know, getting guys to play and trying to eliminate load management, as it were. And just imagine, like, there was a part of me that was going, bro, he is, he's not on pace to get to the number that needs to get there. and could you imagine we see one of the greatest seasons in NBA history and he is unable to be all NBA

he's unable to be MVP he's unable to be all this crap because of I mean it's that would be just that is an unmitigated disaster truly now maybe he'll play it all out but I mean he's not on pace to get to that number he's going to have to play more than he did in the first 42

in order to get there and not have a ankle that keeps you out for seven games and not have a like I don't know man I don't know it is certainly and then we'll get the whole debate this was not the spirit of the rule was not to penalize guys that do play on right yeah oh I knew this was going to happen

I knew it I knew this was going to happen and it's going to be massive miscarriage of justice because this guy's having seriously like he's and this was such a signature night too with the 70 it like is a hallmark

of these great seasons of all time that have taken place and so I don't know here's hoping he gets to play it out let's hope I hope that for that to be avoided I know I know

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And you tweeted out, our boy Eric Collins from the Hornets. Amazing that he was on the call for this. And he's just apoplectic as Towns is hitting another three. What he started out, like 10 of 12 from three point line. And then it gets to the fourth quarter and the Hornets can't miss. They're running and gunning, spacing it all out. Scary Terry. Brandon Miller.

Everybody is at PJ Washington. They're all doing their thing. And defensively, Minnesota turns to mush. And offensively, you saw how badly they miss Mike Conley. Just to get them organized,

just to calm it all down. And not only Conley, it's that Conley being out then illuminates that there's nobody else. There's nobody else to settle it down and get it all organized. So it's just kind of whoever's got the ball come and do it. And Anthony Edwards, so it's like one pass maximum possessions. Like they just, and they end up losing that game,

which then, you know, puts a huge damper on what was another historic scoring night that took place with Towns of 62. But damn, man, that's a, that's a tough one for your 62 to come in a loss to the Hornets at home. It was such a weird game because like you said, he was, he couldn't miss anything, especially from deep on the jumpers. Eric Collins going crazy over at screaming. And then, you know, he gets to 60. And Eric, Eric, he pulled the one.

No! No! But then he got the 60. Eric Collins at a good line in the fourth quarter, he was like, I don't think I've ever said this before. Cat stuck on 60. Because he wasn't scoring. And he got the 62. But then he got polled with like three, four minutes left.

And I'm not sure. I haven't seen Chris Finch's post game presser. And he may not say the honest answer anyway. But they pull cat. Was it because he was tired? Or was it because the team was just sucking? Because they were not generating any good bucking. good buckets at all. What was it? Was it because

he was like, ran out of steam and was sucking, or was he just tired? What was the reason? But they pulled cat. It was strange. I think he had already played 38. Maybe. Yeah, but like, you've got to play 40. You got to play 44 in the playoffs sometimes. Like, you got to be able to get that out of you at some

point. Well, and also, if you've got 62 points, you think you'd go after, you know, right? You got a chance at going after it. And that last, and blown, Like an 18 point lead. You got to be like a plan to win. That Lamo drive.

I mean, the two-minute report's probably going to say you got fouled. Like Lamello did on his drive. I'm sorry, like I figured who was aunt on his drive? One of them, I forget. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

Well, I mean, look, he is the, yeah, look, he is the all-time worst when it comes to acting like a weenie. He really is. I can't take it. I'm sorry. I can't take it. I mean, it was a weaning couple of nights for the, for the wolves.

They lose to the thunder at home on Saturday night. We in Minnesota now. They lose the thunder at home on Saturday night and ants crying after the game about Gilgis Alexander getting foul calls. And then tonight they blow an 18 point lead. And like you said, the big part of this is not having Mike Conley. And if you don't,

if you're, look, Mike Conno is really good. But if you can't get, going on offense without a mid to late 30 year old point guard who's not in his prime anymore? Don't you take away from him? The guy is playing amazing. I know he is, but I'm just saying, like, you got to have other answers besides a guy his age

when he needs rest where you can't always wrong. You got to have other answers and they don't currently have. You say that, but we got good teams around the league, i.e. Phoenix, i.e. the pelicans who both have this happen when you get in the. these nip-tuck games down the stretch, they become a mess too. You need a point guard. You need an organizer. But this is what I'm saying. Like you need to find those answers. You need a backup point guard is what you need. But you need to find those answers from somebody. Like for Boston, that's always been the thing with Tatum and Brown. Part of it still is the thing with them. Can Jason

Tatum find that? Can Janlon Brown find that in the biggest moments in the postseason? We saw of them, you know, granted, like you can argue, they got some good shots the other night with their loss against Denver, still down the stretch of that game. I didn't feel like Tatum was getting the most quality shots compared to... What? And so I think with Tatum, that's still a thing with the end-game situation. So I think...

I mean, it costs, it costs Patrick Perkins to come on after the game and said that if you stuck Joe Missoula's brain in a bird and fly backers or whatever. I was like, God. I cannot. believe that. It's so ridiculous. It's like sports comedy, really, like that type of thing for doing that. He was waiting.

He was sitting on that one, wouldn't it? Yeah, no, he came up with that at like 1.30 a.m. in the morning. He's like, tomorrow. But I don't know. You're right. Those possessions were a mess. But that's what separates. I mean, like, that's the.

look, dude, that's what separates the good players and the great players, great players from the amazing players. And like, look, dude, like, there's only so many guys that can carry a team and drag them all the way to the NBA finals and to hoist the trophy at the end. And a lot of the time, most of the time, those are the guys that can generate shots at the end of the clock and clutch moments in big games and also know how to settle a team down the stretch of those games when you're going through adversity. and Minnesota multiple times the season is showing, unless it's Mike Conley, they can't do that. And that's concerning for them, and one of the reasons why they need to be really, really aggressive in finding another point guard out there.

Because Conley, at his age, you cannot always rely that he'll be out there, healthy, able to be able to perform. It's just the reality of it. And I told you, just from my perspective, that is the team that should be putting together the best offer they can to get Tyos Joe. Former T-W hometown kid also could be, I think would be a perfect going forward succession plan post-con.

I'm with you. That would be the ideal spot for him. I'm with you. And obviously, I don't know. Look, I think there's going to be a hell of a bidding for him because I think there's a lot of teams that could use his services. and as someone who covered him and watched all of his games for the last three years, one of my top five favorites in terms of like on-off court guys, Tice Jones is the best.

Any organization is lucky to have him. He could start for you. He could come off the bench for you. And he is an unbelievable teammate, great in the country. great in the community, great family. Like, he's, I love him. Here's the thing, though. What are you giving up?

I know, that's what I'm saying. You know, if Tyos Jones does have a market, you're already pretty much, you're out of most of your future picks. You can do swaps, but you can't, you can't outright trade a first. You have to do swaps in seconds. You have, like, you could trade Leonard Miller, but do you really want to trade 20-year-old, versatile forward, Glennon Miller, who you're very high on. Do you want to trade, like one of those young guys,

Nikila Alexander Walker, who's one of your better defenders this year on the perimeter? Are you giving that up? I mean, like, and I know that sounds silly to even bring up, but Kyle Anderson at the $9 million salary he has is likely what's going to have to be in there. And in the same way that I said with Mike Conley, like you relying on him is a bit much. Kyle Anderson is also one of your leaders in the locker room. So if you're giving up one of the leaders in your locker room, how does that affect team chemistry for a team that, let's be honest, has some fragile characters and a lot of immaturity there. So you want that guy in the playoffs. You want another guy I covered.

You want Kyle Anderson for what he brings to the table. He could defend five different positions if you need him to. He keeps the ball moving. He can also, you know, handle the ball and kind of get things settled down for you as well. many times so yeah right they don't have much they don't have much yeah i think i think financially you you get you're close if you do shake milton and troy brown that that i believe that could work financially but they're going to get such a better offer than that that's the problem like if you're doing those two guys uh and you're giving up you know a swap or some seconds i don't think

that's the best offer out there for tias jones there's too many things there's too many teams that want Tyos Jones, that I think Washington is in a position where they can do better than what Minnesota can offer, but we'll see. We've been surprised before, maybe a team besides not to, but I don't know why a team won't. Tyos Jones has been one of the bright spots in the Wizards this year. He's having the best scoring season of his entire career. He's shooting 42% from three. He's near the top of the NBA in pick and roll scoring efficiency. He still doesn't turn the ball over ever. It's rare to see him turn it over. He's reliable. He tries hard on defense. all the X-Factor stuff that you said, who wouldn't want Tyos Jones?

I don't see how Washington couldn't get a good amount. Top trade target, in my opinion. And I think a guy that could really swing things for a franchise. So this was a historic night, obviously, with the M-Bed performance and the town's performance. But we've got to mention a couple other things that took place. We've got to pay notice to this Cavs thing. So they're now eight straight. And not only are they eight straight, not only are they eight straight, not a lot of.

run. And I know the schedule was soft at the beginning with the two Washington's in San Antonio Brooklyn to start it. But then they followed that up by beating Chicago by 18. They beat Milwaukee without Yonis, but they beat it by 40. Then they won at Atlanta by 20. Then they turned around and smoked Orlando by 27 tonight. At Orlando, they have flown up the metrics on D.E. defense. And you've got this Jared Allen, who I think it's 12 straight, double doubles, and he's anchoring what has been, well, you know, as good a defense as there's been in the entire NBA over this stretch. They're now top four in the east. And Donovan Mitchell's gone crazy. Jared Allen's gone crazy. They've got this mix with the raw guys. And this is all without Garland and without Mobley. And I don't know. I think it's something to certainly pay mind to because their defense has just been so unbelievable. And these numbers that they're putting up, I mean, they're bombing people out and holding them to less than a hundred, which is just crazy. And now it's eight in a row.

Like I said, at Atlanta, at Orlando is not an easy two games in a row to go destroy. destroy people. And they destroyed both of them. And those are, for as bad, and I know that Orlando can be offensively deficient. Atlanta, or at least Atlanta can usually score, right? And you got to pay some notice.

Are we, are we, are we got to start believing in the calves a little bit? I think my thoughts with Cleveland haven't changed too much since the last time we spoke to them in the sense that I said, A, they have their tougher stretch coming up, and they have two games against the Bucks on the road this week. They have the Clippers next week.

So that's three really good tests for them that's going to really show who they are. Granted, they did just destroy the Bucks. No Janus, though, but you still face Dan, you face Middleton, you face Brooke Lopez, and you destroyed those guys. It's still a quality bucks team. But this is the bigger test coming up with. By 40. Yes, by 40.

You destroyed them. But this is the bigger test, two against the bucks, one against the clippers. This will be a better for Brominer for where they are. But ultimately, I do think overall it relates to the other conversation that we had recently about them, where you take away Mowbly and you take away Garland and it has created balance in their rotation. Where you're playing with True Mitchell, you have Allen at the five, you have spacing with all your wings, with Okoro, who has become a better shooter, Dean Wade, who has been awesome. some two-way guy for them. He has turned into something really valuable. Max Struce still isn't even shooting as well as he did from Miami last year,

but a solid two-way guy. And everybody else sprinkled into that rotation, the team feels very balanced. So I think- Well, you could just play everything off this pick and roll. Yes. It's like, you got a guy that turns a corner,

a guy that finishes the lobbs, and then I can just kick it out. Go look at the guy that I did. Sam Merrill, he was here with the first. friggin Memphis Hustle a couple of years ago. And, yeah, I think you had 26 off the bench tonight. I mean, it's like gunners.

Yeah, it's a gunner's paradise. Yeah, 100%. If you can shoot the ball. Yep. You know? Yep. And so I think, I think for them, I mean, look, I've, I've always been skeptical about Mowgli, always.

Like, I thought Mowgli was a for sure thing, elite defensive talent, which he is. he already is. Offensively, I've never been certain with him becoming, you know, how he was imagined by some, and I'm still not. And I think with Mobley, there's real questions about what he can be as a shooter. He still has subpar touched near the rim. He's still an average free-throw shooter. He has not shown any development at all from mid-range or from three, and that creates friction in the front court alongside Jared Allen. So I think with them, the same thing applies with Garland and Mitchell in the back court where there's, like, A lot of overlapping skills with both of them being on ball guys.

Garland feels a bit redundant at times. They're both smaller guards. The interesting thing here for Cleveland, from a big picture perspective, if the team is playing this well with Dean Wade and Isaac O'Coro and Merrill and Struce and all these guys flanking Alan and Mitchell, well, hey, what could you get if you actually are willing to entertain trades for guys in their young 20s like Evan Mobley and Darius Garland,

what is the big move you could actually make that would really take you up another level with a star level talent that fits alongside Mitchell and Allen. Just the thought in the back of my mind. I'm not sure that player is even available that you would move one of those guys for right now. I would just have

to know that Donovan Mitchell's going to be with me for the next four years. And that's the big factor that is looming over all of it. But if you can turn it and if you can turn yourself into a team that he would be dumb to leave. Well, sometimes, like, it's the risk you're going to take. Yeah.

And look, get those guys back healthy. That team went through a lot of injuries early in the season. I think it's just hard for us. We can't get out of our head the way they were emasculated by the Knicks last year. Oh, no, I know. When it, because they had a really great season last year. And then they got emasculated in the playoffs. For sure.

And so it's like, All right. Do you have anything different that's not going to, you know, that it's going to change with that. But yeah, just basic basketball. They've got a paradise going right now with an amazing guard, a center that's playing amazing, two guys that fit great together, and then being able to just swing this thing around and knock down shots. You mentioned those Milwaukee games coming up. Those are super fascinating, Kevin, because, as I said, Cleveland's as good at defense as there is in the world recently.

and just strangling people out offensively. And that's what Milwaukee is known for is this amazing offense because their defense is abominable in January. Do you know they are 28th? 28th. Milwaukee has given up 122 points per 100% possessions in 10 games. It's unfathomable. I know.

But the longer this goes. It's unfathomable. They could be 28. The longer this goes, the more worrying it becomes truly. Well, and they keep saying, you know, everybody keeps saying, it's like, well, their starters, right, still, you know, bomb you out, right? The starters still have a great net rating. Starters still have this going for them.

But it's like, geez, then how the hell are you 28? In, you know, I get it. You could score a ton. but that's why this offense versus defense with this Cavs thing. We're about to see if this defense, yeah, it's one thing to strangle out, you know, the wizards and the nets and the spurs, but kind of upped a little bit by doing it to the Bulls and doing it to Atlanta and doing it to Orlando. This is the real test.

We're about to find out if this Cleveland defense is truly like one of the best three or four defenses in the NBA. as they have performed or if it's more of a function of the schedule. I'm actually looking forward to the Bucks, Hawks much more than I would have ever expected. What about the Chris Haynes report that he had about the Bucks interests in Hawks' point card, DeJante Murray, and then Mark Stein followed up saying that that interest is real.

But the Bucks are out of anything. deal. They can deal swap first-round draft picks in 2026 and 2030. Those swaps would kind of be traded in the same way that the Suns traded swaps over and over again. So in 2026, the Pelicans would have first dibs to the swap. And in 2030, the Blazers would have first dibs to the swap. They could trade swaps with Bobby Portis and Pat Conantin, maybe with Andre Jackson. Is that the best offer for Dejante Murray, who is a career best scoring season, who has signed long term, who has interest from other teams, including the Lakers,

and they have incentive to be aggressive. I just can't imagine the Bucks would be the team that have the best offer unless the Hawks are obsessed with Andre Jackson or something like that. If they really believe in Andre Jackson, and let's say the Hawks had Andre Jackson at 12 on their board, or 10 on their board, and they believe that he's going to be a perfect piece next to Trey,

Unless that's the case, I just, I don't see how the bucks can even be in on Dejante and Murray. It's just shocking, but at the same time, I don't like the fit anyway. How come? I'm just curious. How come? Next to Dame? I mean, I just watched him with Tre Young. And I'm with you.

I'm with you. I don't love the fit either. However, he, in theory, is a better point of attack defender than what they have. If he returns to form like he was in the early days of. of San Antonio, which was a long time ago, he was an all-defenseantle player. He progressively got worse defensively as his offensive role has increased over the years. So he would really have to be on his best behavior, playing with a chip on his shoulder, in order to return to that prior level.

With that said, he has become something this season that he's never been offensively. He's always been streaky, but he's progressively gotten better as a free-throw shooter, as a mid-range shooter. if the three-point shot this year is for real at 38% on the season after being a 32% guy post-torn ACL, after being a non-shooter pre-ACL injury, it's intriguing to think about what he is today, and if this is actually sustainable, when you factor in that if he's on a contending team, maybe he taps back into his prime level on defense. Wow.

And look, and as we're having this discussion in the background on my TV, they're getting their ass kicked by the Kings. I mean, I don't know. I don't love the shit there. I don't love the fit. Yeah. I would find a bigger,

a bigger guard. I do think they need help with the two, for sure, right? Unless they're going to be able to do the, you know, move Crowder down and then have Middleton just play two. But like, I want somebody that I can, I want somebody,

like the role-playing defender that I can throw on your opposing point guard to try to screw up your offense, you know, that I can also have on a wing, but I can also have on your point guard, and then I can hide dang. He could go over there to the corner and, you know, play a dumb war with Isaac O'Courler's of the world. Why can't that be Andre Jackson? And I know I'm sure Adrian Griffin, if he were listening to our podcast, he would be saying because he gets five fouls and 20 minutes. That's why it can't be him.

But to that, I would say, well, why don't you just play him 25 minutes every single night instead of going like 10 minutes one night, 20 minutes and another night, 12 minutes another night? Why don't you just make him part of your regular rotation invest in him and see if he can get better at not falling over the course of the season? Make that investment now so then he can be your stopper in the postseason. It's not like he hasn't had moments this year, particularly. in that like the one game this month that the Bucks looked good defensively was against Boston. And Andre Jackson played like 15 minutes in that game.

I thought he did a good job slowing down Boston getting into their half-court offense with his on ball pressure. So to me, I think they have some answers from within, whether it's system changes, whether it's the way he's using his rotation. I want to see the investment in Andre Jackson. Like I think the Bucks, he shot well enough on limited amount of jumpers that. Like he doesn't look like a complete liability. So like let's see what he looks like with a full investment and see if he's actually the guy from winning because he fits exactly what you just described. A hundred percent two with teeth.

That's what the bucks need is what you hope Andre Jackson become. So let's see it. Next thing that we need to talk about. So I had it written down that the sons had their guys for seven games in a row. They had won five of those. So now you got to up that. It's eight and that goes to six because as we were recorded. They just beat the Bulls and storm back.

They were getting their ass kick. And then in the second half had 66 points and outscored the Bulls in the second half, 66 to 47 to push that up to, to push that up to what is that? Six now? Yeah, six of the last eight. And I believe they have as long a winning streak as anybody. of the West, it's now, yeah, that win streak's now at six that they have going. After they beat the Bulls, Durant had 43 in the game.

And so it's something that certainly we got to monitor this. They're about to go on a very long road trip that starts Wednesday night. They go at Dallas, at Indiana, at Orlando, at Miami, at Brooklyn. So they got a really long road trip ahead. so we're going to find out with them. But certainly very impressive as of late with the three guys in unison. And it's something to monitor because I was not, you know, maybe I just need to talk down on them because as I did at the beginning of the month

after we had watched them lose to Memphis and the Clippers back to back and the Clippers just killed them. starting with that Lakers game on January 11th, they have not lost a game since. Not exactly a who's who of opponents, but, you know, going to New Orleans on a Friday night and beating them like a drum

and then turning around and beating Indiana and Chicago back to back or I guess you saw the, you saw the worst of and the best of in the Chicago game tonight. The worst of was the beginning of the game and really the first half. And then the best of is that second half. And they keep that wind street going. So we at least got to start paying attention to like,

hey, is this Phoenix thing starting to come together? And I think we'll probably find out on this road trip, right? Oh, for sure. I mean, this road trip is a massive test. You're on the road for like 10 days. And you get some tough opponents throughout that stretch. And some easier opponents too. But you would think Indiana, that next game,

it'll be with Hallibur. And he was out for the game last night. So, I mean, maybe you'll be Hallibur and Ansiacum for that game. And Miami's tough. You have some easier games, though, in that. And then you return home and you get Milwaukee, and that's your last game ahead of the trade deadline. And then Utah, Golden State, Sacramento, maybe Sacramento is back on track by that point. You have a pretty tough stretch at this point coming up.

And I think that's true for a number of teams that are kind of in that position where will they or will they not make a move? the Lakers are in that spot as well. On Tuesday night, they have a game against the Clippers. LeBron's not playing in that. And then they have a home game before they have a six-game, 10-night road trip that leads right up to the trade deadline. And on deadline night, they face Denver. After the clock passes, they face the Nuggets that night.

So you have some teams in the West that have been up and down throughout the season where will they make a move, do they have the assets to make the type of move they want to make? like these next two weeks, two road trips for Phoenix and the Lakers and a tough stretch for the Warriors too. Like this is going to determine a lot of how the rest of the season's going to look, depending on how these teams perform over the next couple weeks. So I'm like, I'm really excited for some of us because this is kind of that pivot point of the year where we're past the midpoint of the season. It sucks. It sucks. We're not going to get to see them.

playing against each other because the clippers are 0 and 2 against the Lakers and they are playing tomorrow night. They are, since they started 0 and 5 with Hardin, they have been 24 and 7 since then. And so I wish we could see both those at full strength. I do want to mention, since we've been talking about some of the other teams that have been so good, the Cavs, the Sons is something to monitor.

that Milwaukee defense is something to continue to monitor. The last one is the team that's going to be the first game on TNT on Tuesday night, and that is the Knicks. They are, I got some crazy stats. I was reading John Schumann's article this morning, and the Knicks are 9 and 2 with OG and Anobi. So this is a team, you're talking about teams making a move. This is one that's already made their move.

Yeah. Okay. Nine and two with OG. They want to make another one, this deadline or, this summer. They want to make another too. They are 8 and 1 with O.G. and O.G. and O.G.

and O.G.N. O.G.N. O.G.N.O.N.O. and Jailon Brunsen per 100 possessions have outscored their opponents by 27 points per 100 possessions. Wow. Wow.

Of all the combinations in the league that have played over 200 minutes, and that would apply to over 1,000 combinations in the NBA, it is by far the best. And number two and number three, both also include OGN and Noble. Wow. 27. Wow. That is a freaky net rating with those two on the court at the same time.

And my, my, it's like a souped up version of when we saw them make that run and it was him. And you remember Finney Smith for Dallas when they were making that Western Conference finals run. And this is this is worked out more brilliant. We both really liked this acquisition, but usually things take some time. Not only is it's not taken any time, it has been ridiculously devastating already. And they play the nets tomorrow night. So, I mean, you'd imagine they'll chalk up another one. But I start paying some mind to the Knicks because these numbers are pretty crazy.

And if we get to the, you know, we all, we, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've always said that's the team that when the draws come out for the playoffs they're going to be you're no picnic with them no picnic i love the the quote that uh tom tibito had recently saying ogy and an obi is a defense unto himself and i mean like tibs just must be like having dreams thinking about how to deploy him against opponents and having the time of his life having ogy on the team and then then you got bruce brown it's strange the Raptors. He says with microphones in front of his face on the record

I'm a Tom Timmittal player. I do whatever he wants me to do if the Knicks were to trade for me. So, like, you got Can you imagine if they somehow ended up with with, imagine if you're like

one of these other teams and you look up and they got O.G. and In Inobie, Josh Hart and Bruce Brown. Oh, man. It's like, it's a bunch of dogs. I mean, it's like That's where, you know, the, the bad acting wings, when they go to hell, that's who they see. Yeah, yeah. They show up and it's like, here I am.

O.G. and Nobie. Oh, you got two early fouls. Here comes Josh Hart. Oh, well, here comes Bruce Brown. It's the worst. Like, that's like the level. It's like them, you go in one door and it's the Miami Heat. You go in the other door, and it would be that Nix.

be the Knicks anyway once they get back Mitchell Robinson. I mean, my God, they're going to be able to snuff some people out. Plus 27 per 100 possessions is just ridiculous. It's ridiculous. You know, I think with the Knicks, part of their success this month, of course, is OG and the trade that they made. But Isaiah Hartinstein as well has been sensational for them. You lose Mitchell Robinson and Hartinstein offensively.

He's always been like his first year with the Knicks. It felt like he wasn't getting used properly. But this year he's showing off the dimensions of his game that he did previously with the Clippers. But defensively, though, like the guy. He's shown versatility, like quick hands stripping at the ball, the rebounding. He does everything, Chris. I saw him about, I don't know, you could look at the day, about a week and a half ago, two weeks ago. I saw him in Memphis.

he played 42 minutes in the game. It was the night they played without Brunson in that game. And I cannot tell you how many times I turned to Rosa, who was sitting next to me, and I said, bro, this guy is good. Why is this guy so good? Like, he was obviously, look, Memphis is as small as all get out. But, I mean, just, you know, the two guys that have, like, come along like that this year, where I've watched them and been like, boy, that guy looks different than I remember,

are him and Zubots, just newly, they both just perfect fit. And you got to give Hartinstein a lot of credit, man, because they really, they went to hell in a handbasket with some numbers last year when Mitchell Robinson went out. And this year, he's just filled the void. that should be a massive loss for you to have to play without Mitchell Robertson because he's a bitch to deal with

but this guy is good Ardenstein's good he's like legitimately good and I like that Nick's team man I like them talking about him I saw I follow and he follows me for some reason from public enemy Chuck D I love Chuck D

big Nick's fan that he tweeted a couple weeks ago he said um and like it's like he's comparing him to a Hall of Famer, but it's like Hartenstein reminds me of Dave Cowitz with the hustle, with the hustle, with the rebounding and the heart and the grit and all that. It's like, yeah, I get it. I get it.

Like, you know, obviously Dave Counten's is a Hall of Famer, and I say Hartenstein is not, but from a team role perspective and what he offers a team, I get it. You know, I think Hartinstein has really just filled that voice. Boyd, with Mitchell Robinson going out and has shown every area of his game in ways that he's really never been able to before at this volume. And it's just, it's cool to see.

It really is cool to see because it works perfect with all of those wing stoppers that they have. And with Randall's size on the front court next to him when Randall's turned on. And then with Brunson as the primary creator, it all seems to fit and balance each other for the next. They've landed on something right now with what they have. Yeah, fun team to watch too as well. Man, this was a, this is a fun night in the NBA.

We've got a lot of good games that are actually scheduled for this week. I hate that we're not going to get to see full force clippers versus full force Lakers. But we've got some other ones this week that are going to tell us stuff. And these, as you mentioned earlier, Kev, always carry. more importance over the course of this next three weeks as we head into the trade deadline. Yeah. Because this is like final evaluation period. We'll probably see some trades over the course of the next week and a half two weeks,

you know, much like the Ananovi one, much like the Siaka one. Like it's starting to heat up and we may see some more before people get to the trade deadline because there's usually some that are setting themselves up for the trade deadline. life, right? So that they can, they can make multiple moves. And like I said, like all these results end up carrying

a greater importance as these teams are evaluating themselves and deciding all right. Are we trying to get better? We're trying to get worse. We're just staying the same. What are we doing here? Fun night though, man. You don't see, look, years ago, I remember we did a pod. I think it was Blake Griffin

for the Pistons, had 50 something. And I remember coming on. I said, Kevin, we don't see a lot of 50s. Then we had a barrage of 50-point games that everybody would tweet me every time. We're like, hey, Kevin, we don't see a lot of 50s. Can I be competent and say, we don't see a lot of 70s? Come on, there's only been 14 in NBA history. Somebody has one again this week.

I'm going to puke. Can you imagine? Yes. Who would it be this week? We almost had two tonight. Well, let's say we get a. another one this week. Who's it going to be?

Who's the player? We're not getting another one. If we got another one, if we got another one, who's it going to be? Janus? No. Who the Spurs play?

Yeah. Yeah. Who are like, who are the pistons playing? Who are the wizards playing? Oak City, I don't think anybody's going over 70.

I don't think Portland maybe Cat on Saturday but Minnesota maybe Cat on Saturday and otherwise yeah those are like three games they got the rest of this week it's not Yonnes who's going against the Cavs Dodd of him Mitchell though

Donovan Mitchell though I just told you they're giving up 122 for 100%. Yeah true how about Embed again he's got the Pacers coming up on Thursday Who has got the highest points against in the league? Indiana and Detroit. Oh, Washington's actually at 124 now.

We're just doing straight points. So the bottom five defensive ratings are currently Hornets, Pistons, Wizards, Pacers, Hawks. That's the bottom five. I mean, Indiana, you could have big numbers. Yeah. And beat again. and beat again. Yeah, you're right.

That beat again. My God. Those poor guys, Indiana is lost two in a row. They lost at Portland and at Phoenix. And their next three games are Denver. Oh, my God. Look at the end of Indiana's month. Denver, Philly, Phoenix, Memphis, at Boston.

How there you? Huge win for the gris tonight in Toronto. huge. Hey, hey, how much of that game did you watch? I know you're paying attention to others tonight. I had it on. I know,

but Embed gets 70. Carl Towns is going off. But like with Memphis, Toronto, Toronto, they've lost three in a row. Like, we had our argument about the draft pick.

Oh, they suck too. Yeah, right. I don't think they're that good. They're a young team and there's a lot of talent in the NBA right now. They might end up top six odds. They really might.

I'm releasing my mock draft this week, and I'm waiting until, waiting until the standings update after Tuesday night. My draft guide's going up on Wednesday, I believe, we're launching it. Wednesday or Thursday is the plan. But that'll be up by the time we do our next podcast, and there's going to be a mock draft in there. We'll see where Toronto is. They might be six or seven, but it's interesting. That pick. Dude, they started Jontay Porter.

I was like, what is going on? And, hey, first time I saw a Grady Dick all year. I didn't do anything. I didn't watch any of the game. Of course you didn't. Who would? You could have seen John Conchard's five blocks. Grady Dick just got a bunch of cardio.

He didn't do anything. I see 15 minutes, zero of one from the floor. He might as well have taken a Zumba class. I hope he fixes his shot, man, because he is not shot well at all this year. And he changed him his mechanics. It looks bad. Would you say limp dick? It has been incredibly limp.

He needs some Cialis out there for his jumper. All right. It's got to do it for today's show. It's too late for this. Too late for this. All right. Big week ahead. We're now a few weeks away from the trade deadline.

It's always a pleasure. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Kevin, I'll talk to you on Thursday. Have a good week. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG. In Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Vermont, and Virginia.

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