The Mismatch - Evaluating DeMar From Afar, Love Affair With Scottie Barnes, and Stuck Teams in the NBA

Episode Date: December 23, 2021

Welcome to ‘The Void’ as Kevin O’Connor brings you deep inside the NBA with the people who know it best. KOC brings on Sportsnet 950 The FAN hosts and Toronto Raptors reporters Blake Murphy and William Lou. They discuss DeMar DeRozan’s improvement as a player since leaving the Raptors (02:10) before looking at his performance this season with the Bulls (07:20). KOC confesses his love for Raptors rookie wingman Scottie Barnes, and they discuss why his playing style is so exciting (17:01). KOC points out the Raptors’ odd roster construction and they debate whether the franchise should make a move for a big man (28:50). Then they go around the league including a convention about a league X-factor, Warriors rookie Jonathan Kuminga (43:02). Lastly, a bonus conversion taken from Kevin’s interview on Spotify Greenroom with Magic rookie point guard Jalen Suggs about life in the NBA, dealing with losing, and one of the elite 2022 draft prospects (49:07). Host: Kevin O’Connor Guests: Blake Murphy, William Lou and Jalen Suggs Producers: Jessie Lopez and Dylan Berkey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The ringer gambling show is here to help you place your bets on the biggest sports around the world. Join NFL analyst Warren Sharp on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. Each week, they'll cover everything from spreads, game totals, and parlays to player props, futures, post-game reactions, and more. Check out the ringer gambling show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, thank you for listening to The Void. Today I'm really excited to talk NBA with William Lou and Blake Murphy from Sports. up in Canada. Welcome to the void guys. Yo, what's going on?

Thanks for having me, big fan of the show. And Blake, you know, I guess you're here too, so that's cool, I guess. Yeah. All right, well, just remember, we're recording this the day before I come on and carry your show for an hour so you and Alex can have a day off the

labor intense one hour a day show. Will Lou, of course, host the Raptor show. Always joined by Alex Wong for that. You guys, all right host shows, make videos. You guys do it all at Sports Center. I really love your stuff, so I'm excited to have you on today,

discuss a lot, starting with the Chicago Bulls. This has been a weird week for the world and for the NBA. A ton of players are caught up in protocols, which has derailed what would have been a really cool Bulls' Raptors matchup on Wednesday night. But let's get started talking about Chicago anyway. The Bulls are second in the east at 19 and 10 with the sixth-st-ranked offense, 11th-ranked defense, ball and Caruso,

have been holding down the fort on D for them. Levine is maintaining all-star production. And a player, you guys know very, very well. And DeMorosen is having a first team, all-NBA caliber season. So what I'm wondering about is from the last time we saw him in Toronto to where he is now, he became more of a point guard and less of a score in San Antonio. And now in Chicago, he's having this unbelievable overall season. Blake, what are the differences between DeRosen's game?

then in Toronto versus now in Chicago. Yeah, I think there's really something to that kind of layering of skill sets where, you know, over DeMar's time in Toronto, you know, you have, okay, can you do the thing? And then it's can you do the thing and react to how a defense is going to defend that? And then it's anticipating what the defense is going to do so you're a bit ahead. And then the part where DeMarc kind of left off and he was there 2017, 2018, when he had that spike an assist percentage was, you know, the kind of ultimate step of that is can you manipulate a defense? Can you get them to do what you want them to do and what you're anticipating them to do to open up

things for yourself and for others? And I think, you know, San Antonio maybe wasn't the best example of it because, you know, they leaned on them, like you said, a lot more as just a pure playmaker. His usage rate came down. He wasn't scoring quite as much. You know, still a very effective player, but not quite the same level of score that we'd seen in Toronto. And now what Chicago is doing is they're kind of putting these two things together, right? You have this version of Damar that is this elite score and that bends defenses with his one-on-one scoring ability. And you have this version of Demar who became basically a pseudo point guard. And you're blending those things together now.

And it makes it really difficult to guard him, obviously. And, you know, there are complementary pieces around him as well, which helps. But I think that this is just, you know, it's a guy, what, 13 years into his career who's kind of putting the pieces together. I've been watching a lot of Demar this year with Chicago. It's not that different than what he did in Toronto. Now, I think the biggest thing is that ever since he went to San Antonio, his challenge has been developing more towards the point guard skill set. And his playmaking has really taken a jump. Some of that actually started in Toronto.

There was one season where the Raptors were like the league worst in assists. they were still like a 50 plus win team but it was just so awful and that was one of those many years that they got blown out swept by Cleveland so they like revolutionized their offense with Nick Nurse taking over as the lead assistant

under Dwayne Casey the year he won coach of the year before he got laid off with Nick taking over which is super awkward by the way but that was the year where DeMar started getting better as a playmaker so I think to me he's scoring many of the same ways that he used to as a Raptor he's still just one of the league's best players in the mid-range area.

We saw the shot that he hit over LeBron to clinch that went over the Lakers. And for him, I mean, it's just really seeing him grow in confidence. He's one of the hardest working players in the league. He hasn't really compromised who he is. He's still not really shooting the three that much, although he's doing a little bit more catching and shooting out of the corners, which is important just to space the floor in terms of just when he's off the ball. But for the most part, he's on the ball, he's attacking, he's driving downhill, he's getting free throws.

He's so good at these shots where he's like angled mid-air. He's able to hit all these tough baskets. And when you look at fourth quarter players this season, he leads all players in the NBA in fourth quarter scoring at 8.2 points per game, which is more than any other player in the NBA by a full point. And when you look at the numbers in terms of his efficiency, he's 70 of 130 from the field in the fourth quarters. he's only missed five free throws after taking 57 of them in the fourth quarter. He's even five of 11 from three, and he's only had 11 turnovers in the fourth. He's just been like, there's a real argument to be made that DeMarre has been like the clutches

player in the NBA this year. And the dude's just been dominant. He's been dominant in fourth quarters, Will Lou. And I mean, I have a second spectrum stat here to add on to your point. De Rosen unsurprisingly takes the most mid-range numbers of the NBA at 51% of all of his shots. They all come from mid-range. But in the fourth quarter, that rises to 62.3% according to Second Spectrum, which is the highest fourth quarter increase of any player in the whole NBA. And the wild part is those mid-range shots are turning into makes at an historic rate, at least in the tracking data error, going back to 2013.

Spectrum has this stat called quantified shooter impact, which measures a player's actual effective field goal percentage compared to their expected effective field goal percentage based on the tracking data. given the quality of the look. So DeRosen with quantified shooter impact is a plus 18.4 in that stat, which is absolutely unheard of in the tracking data history. Going back to 2013, the only guys to be a plus 15 or higher are Kyrie Irving in 2020, 2021, and Kevin Durant from multiple seasons. That's it. DeRosen, Kyrie, and Kady.

DeRosen playing at this level obviously has a lot to do with his own individual player development mastering the art of the mid-range becoming better as a passer. But Will, my question for you is, how much of his progress also has to do with the way the game has evolved and the amount of spacing offenses have now in addition to the fact that defenses are surrendering the mid-range? So how much of it is, is both of those things happening altogether? Yeah, I'm really happy you brought that up because I feel like having watched a ton of the mar in my career, he is just playing with more shooting than he's ever had.

And I think for him, he's always been such a crafty one-on-one player. But when you look at, you know, the version that Jonas Valchunus was at, before he was knocking on all these threes for a Pelicans team that can't ever win, like, you know, Nick Vucevic just brings a lot more spacing on that front. When you look at a score to sort of share the load with, I mean, another guy who's been awesome in fourth quarter is Zach Levine. The Raptors never had a Zach Levine to put beside DeMar so that if, let's say, the Marr's matchup isn't the best.

You can just swing into another guy to operate. I mean, it was Kyle, I guess, but mostly DeMar was the number one option. So you're playing with just so much more spacing. And I think the Bulls have done something really interesting here, which is that they have almost punted defense in the way they built the roster because of the fact that they're playing so many guards

around a center who isn't necessarily like a defensive stalwart by any means, 31-year-old Nick Busovich. Having said that, though, the results are completely different. And they're seventh of defensive rating this year. They're really good at dominating the transition game, which is similar to sort of what Toronto does, actually. But they really never allow transition opportunities, and then they also score a ton on that.

So honestly, it's one of those basic tenets. If you can just, you know, not give up a lot of transition opportunities, your defense is probably going to be solid. DeMar is turning the ball over on 8.4% of his offensive possessions, which is, Demar has always been extremely low turnover. and that's why those Raptors teams were very good at winning the possession battle because he controlled the offense a ton and rarely turned the ball over. This is a career best turnover rate for him.

And you're seeing the Bulls kind of reflect that where just like, you can't turn the Bulls over. You can't really speed them up. You can't get them to make easy mistakes like that. And I think DeMars the tone set are there. But I think going back to the original point is just that there's so much spacing around DeMar now. So, you know, if he does need to kick it out, he obviously can trust Lonzo to make a play. He can trust Alex Caruso, who's honestly, who's been awesome. Every

Bulls fan loves him nowadays. And then, of course, you have the ultimate release valve in Zach Levina. It's like if the matchup's not good, DeMarce is not going to force it. So you're seeing sort of a confluence of factors that, you know, allowed Demar to sort of be even more accentuated than before. I mean, even going back to his year in San Antonio, he played with a lot more guards on that front as well. Sometimes he was playing four. And he had seasons where he was shooting like 50% from two point range, which is just an elite mark for a shooting guard. On a Sunday after that Lakers game, you mentioned earlier, Mello said, I know a lot of

people want to discredit that part of the game, but I think that's a lost start. I think the mid-range game is a lost start. And DeMarr is one of those guys who mastered that. I'm not sure there's really anybody discrediting the mid-range. That's not true. DeRosen, Katie, Dame, you know, whoever it might be, even at the CJ McCormack columns of the world, people still recognize the value of the mid-range shot. I mean, Demand de Roeson shows that more than anybody. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's a bit of a straw man,

and it's a bit of understanding situations, right? Where, you know, Seth Partnow always bangs the drum of, while the mid-range shots we've gotten rid of are like a big man standing 17 feet out and kind of clogging the paint and keeping you from cutting through there or driving there and then hitting a shot that he has just as much chance of hitting from three. It hasn't been, you know, hey, let's get to Marta Rosen than not take these. Now, there were points in his Toronto career where that was some of the discussion where he was shooting like sub 40% on mid-rangers. And then, you know, that's a conversation you have to have.

But per cleaning the glass, this is the sixth consecutive year that Damar is 72nd percentile or higher as a mid-range shooter. and every one of those years, he has been a hundredth percentile in volume, except his last year in Toronto, he was only 99th percentile. So much discretion there. I think, yeah, that was the year

Nick Nurse changed the offense. He was like, look, we're taking too many mid-range shots. DeMarre, you've got to let one guy in the NBA take more mid-range shots in you. By the way, I think the other thing that's lost is that when he plays in that mid-range area, it's not even just specifically whether he makes that shot or not. He draws a fair amount of fouls on a lot of these.

drives where he's getting to the mid-range area, he's very hard to predict in terms of what he's specifically going to do or what moves he's going to make. That's why he draws so many fouls, even with the league sort of at least at the start of the season when they really clamped down how many fouls were calling. It didn't really affect guys like the Marr because he has the craft to play in that mid-range area. The foot works so good. And that's also part of, I think, the efficiency metrics in terms of when he shoots the mid-range. You have to factor in the fact that he gets to the free throw line, seven and a half or seven point eight times per game, and he's shooting 89 percent. And Will, you mentioned the Bulls roster, how they kind of punted on defense with the way

they built this roster out. I mean, I had no question during the season that this team was going to put up, you know, buckets. They're going to score with Levine and the rows in the way those guys can get, can get buckets for your team. But defensively, despite adding Lonsel ball, despite adding Alex Caruso, you still looked at this roster as a whole and it's like, they're not going to be a top 10 defense. But as you said, there's seventh and defensive rating right now. Damar and Zach Levine and their own respective ways have made progress on the defensive end of the floor.

They're at least putting in effort. With Zach Levine, you couldn't have said that a couple years ago, but he's actually trying on that end now. And Lonzo Ball and Alex Caruso are one of the best wing duos in all a basketball. Those guys fill gaps on offense. They shoot spot up threes, attack, closeouts, make smart passes. And those guys

just set the tone on the defensive end of the floor. I mean, when you look at this Bulls team, well, it feels like with they have the championship ingredients. They have their ISO scores. They have their guys that they can kick the ball out to and they have a good collection of defenders.

Is there anything missing on Chicago? Yeah. I think they need to get Patrick Williams healthy because I think eventually you're going to run into these teams that have really big wing operators. I mean, even if you look at like a series of they played Boston, for example, like I actually would really struggle to think who is the one that's going to be guarding Tatum and then also who's going to be guarding Brown. Because the size advantage that Tatum and Brown

have over ball and cruiser, you mean? Yeah, and also I think one of the things with teams that I find really dominated transition game, which is what Chicago does, which is totally smart.

You have all these guards. You should be able to have the speed to get back in transition. You should have the speed to get out in transition. And they win a lot of games just based on the fact that they dominate transition alone. When you go to the playoffs, a lot of those advantages are erased.

The pace of the game just generally slows down. Also, realistically speaking, NBA teams play harder defensively in the playoffs. So there's just generally better defensive transition efforts that you see in the playoffs. So when you take that advantage off the table, what can you do? I think offensively should still be okay.

We haven't seen Levine in a playoff scenario. I guess outside of that Minnesota series, but don't remember a bunch of what he did there. And of course, DeMar has more of a checkered offensive history in the playoffs. But I think for the Bulls, they need to have some of the bigger wing defenders just to just to get by in the playoffs because you know you forget you know let's say Boston they

probably should get past Boston what are you going to do if you run into kD what are you going to do if you run into joll and beat even right but you're just you're going to struggle a lot i think both times the season that chicago has played philadelphia they've lost and yeah when you look at this roster there's not a great choice to golf against mbid i guess vucevich is big but i mean you know that's that's not really a working formula and i think that size advantage just really start to playoff when playoff games get down into sort of mismatch hunting, slow it down, and do you have

the length and the personnel to guard? And when you look at the Bulls, there are, as much as they do a good job of helping with Lonzo and Alex Caruso, there are ways to sort of target specific defenders on that team. And unfortunately, that does include DeMarne, who is still not very good defensively in my opinion.

Yeah, I'm with you on a lot of that. And I think, you know, offensively, the concerns you might have offensively round out a little bit, if we give Nikola Butchovich the benefit of the doubt that he's going to be a better version of himself because he still hasn't found it. I don't know if this is like residual COVID stuff or just the fit, but he still hasn't really looked like the Butchievich were used to and that Chicago thought they were getting. Let's test if I.O. can hit 41% of these threes and let's make

him take some volume. So that's kind of the question is for me, it's not even, you know, obviously you need wing defenders, but you also need wing defenders that. can stay on the floor offensively. And that's where losing Patrick Williams hurts. I also think I'm pretty out on Kobe White. I think they could probably use another bench guard, someone who can, whether it's, you know, kind of a microwave score to take those reins up.

I know playoff time when you have Lonzo, Damar, and Zach Levine, like you can stagger stuff. So you should be fine a lot of the time, but wouldn't mind upgrading that Kobe White spot as well. Maybe we could interest them in one lightly used Chris Boucher, you know, I don't know if Chris Boushey can run the backup point card position. He had a 38 and 19 game against Chicago last year. Please send that as part of the trade package, please.

They got Tony Bradley. They've got a better version of Chris Boucher already. I was really looking forward to watching DeRosen and his bowls going against a pretty fun Raptor squad being led by one of my new favorite players, Scotty Barnes. But with the COVID protocols, Fred Band Bleet, Scottie Barnes, Seacom, Trent, Banton, Flames. men Achua are all in health and safety protocols. And I mean, it sucks. But, you know, we're going to talk about the Raptors anyway because there's still a lot of

disgust involving this team involving Barnes and the way Toronto is building, which can apply to virtually any team. So first off, I got to admit, guys, Scotty Barnes has completely stolen my heart. I love him so much. Will, for anybody who hasn't watched Scardy Barnes play, how would you describe his game to them. All right. Long story

short, Scottie Barnes can do anything. And I think that it's obviously hyperbole. He doesn't do everything every game. But you see flashes

of him doing new things almost on a game by game basis. And what I mean by that is in the game of the Rapples in the game of the Rapples, in overtime,

he was the one hitting stepback jumpers out of the corner for three to tie the game in the final minute of possession. He was the one who was seeking out Katie and attacking one-on-one, not necessarily getting the separation,

but the fact that he could even get a shot off up and over Katie and make the shot is ridiculous, because obviously Katie is one of the longest players in the league, except, you know, Scotty's on that same level when you look at the physicality. And then you watch the next game where they played against the Warriors and whatever. It was like essentially Santa Cruz Warriors, but he was making passes. Like, I'm not even kidding when I say this. Like the other player that I've seen make passes like this with any consistency, was Magic Johnson where he would jump up in mid-air in transition and then fire a one-handed

fastball to like the secondary cutter on a fast break. And I think Champaignia ended up missing the layup. It was an airball somehow. But just he makes plays every game that you're like, okay, I don't actually doubt that there's something in basketball that he can't do. It's really just for him to find a consistency in terms of what his role is going to be from game to game because you'll literally see him one game, guarding point guards. The next game, he'll be the back line.

defender and he's walking five shots against the Knicks for example and that's the big challenge for the coaching staff going forward for Toronto is like nailing down one specific role for him because he literally can do everything right now and that's kind of incredible he does everything fast too

I mean I remember in that same Warriors game I think Van Vleet got an offensive board kicked it out to Gary Trent Jr who and then Van Ville was immediately open but Trent swung the ball to his right to Scotty Barnes at the top of the key who like instantly fired a laser pass right to Van Bleet right in his shot

pocket four or three and it's a it's a simple play to an open guy but just the fact he instantly recognizes that instantly delivers the ball that that's the difference oftentimes between you know average playmakers and good playmakers and good playmakers and great playmakers and like Will said Blake I'm curious about

your thoughts because even just bringing up the name Magic Johnson is high praise but it's not often you see a guy with his size at 6-7 with his weight his length and just the vision that he has. And it seems like his role has expanded over the course of the season so far as well, Blake. And I know that Barnes had the book that, yeah, he could do a lot of this stuff coming into the season. I thought at Summer League and in the early part of this year, what we were seeing was that was all there in transition.

And in the half court, it wasn't quite there yet. Like, Scotty on the run is really effective. and I think something just becomes kind of automatic for him and the way he processes in transition. And that was taking a little bit of extra time in the half court. And I think we're seeing that start to come along now. You know, he's averaging three and a half assists. The assist rate is up around, I think, 15%.

And yeah, I mean, that's, I think, the most intriguing thing about the Scotty Barnes experience to me is the playmaking. The scoring is obviously blown everyone away. the fact that he's hitting a lot of mid-range jumpers a good volume. It's better than expected, right? Absolutely. And like, if you're projecting his shooting moving forward, like, even if you only want him to have a show me three, well, he's hit 35, 36 percent on a decent volume of threes. He's hitting 55, 54 percent on long twos.

And then his free throw shooting has been better than expected too. So you at least think, hey, maybe he'll be a passable shooter. Barnes was of course drafted fourth by the Toronto Raptors, which came as a surprise to a lot of people around the league and to a lot of Raptors fans, given that the expectation was that they would take Gonzaga Guard, Jalen Suggs, who, by the way, I interviewed him pretty recently on Spotify Green Room, and we're going to add that part of that conversation to the back end of this podcast. So Suggs has been off to a rocky start with the magic, whereas Barnes is flourishing right now, doing everything on the corner. I don't think it's an overreaction to say that Barnes has the upside to be one. one of the 10 to 15 best players in the NBA with his combination of offensive versatility, the multi-positional defense, the intangibles. He's so quick, he's so strong. So guys don't always reach that point, but he really does do everything as you said, Will. So what is Scotty Barnes ceiling as a player?

I think that's ultimately the goal that the Raptor should get him towards. If you ask Raptor fans, they want that to happen already. They want Fred to wait in the corner. They want Pascal to probably get moved. They want OG to wait in the corner, Gary to wait in the corner, and then just clear out for Scotty every single time. Yeah. Rapids fans seem to think there are like five corners on the floor. Like, this is a Pentagon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone get in the corner and let Scotty work. Yeah, they're going to change the court to a Pentagon at this point just to accommodate guys. The Fox and one stuff's gone too far where they want that to be the offense too, right? It's like two guys in the corner, two guys at the wing and Scotty operating. That's it. No, but I look, I think the enthusiasm comes from a good place because the small, limited doses where we've seen him. For example, he's not using a lot of possessions in pick and

roll, right? And what the guy like Scott did the thing that's unique is he runs the pick and roll, but he also screens in the pick and roll. And he makes plays out of both those sequences in terms of when he's a screener, he'll just roll to the rim. But he's really smart about short rolling, catching the pass, making the next pass.

There's a, so good. Fake DHOs, too. They've run a couple of those. And it hasn't been quite as effective as like, when they used to sneak in the old JV the fake DHO drive, but there's a little bit of that to it too. And there was,

I can't remember the exact scenario, but there was one example of it where he, like, his eyes lit up and he telegraphed that it was a fake DHO because he looked so excited. But that's another element of this, too. He can be your bam doing DHOs. He can be your DRAM on the short role. I mean, like you said at the top,

he can do everything. It's rare to even suggest that for a rookie so young into their career. Yeah, exactly. And I know what this sounds like, or probably and whatever, but like you actually, you, it's really not, like, it's really real. Like, there's one play where it wasn't even a short role, but OG had the ball in the post in the high post,

and he decided to try to, like, flash down low, try to seal his man. And OG delivered the pass, and because Scotty had a size advantage, the person in the corner came over to help, just like one or two steps. And in the process of the past coming to them, Scotty literally just like tap the ball out to the corner

and then Chris Bouchet was wide over for three. Unfortunately, Chris Boucher is shooting like 10% from three this year, so he missed it. So once again, if Kobe White's available, can we just please try to make a deal? It's not going to happen. But yeah,

like that's the thing with Scott. That was the Yokic. The Yokich had that play pretty recently to Aaron Gordon and it worked for a layup. He just tapped the ball on that. I think it was the entry pass to Barnes,

right? And he tapped it up to the corner three, right? Yeah, exactly. So I think that's where you want to see him have the ball more to run more pick and rolls, to finish more picking rolls. As Blake was mentioned,

he has a little floater, which I think he took over Miles Turner, recently, which is pretty wild. Miles Turner is as good of a shot blocker as there is in this league to get that little running floater over him. He makes really good reads, and I think that's where if the Rafter season goes south because of COVID,

because of injuries, because of whatever, I think they're a little bit too good of a team right now to, like, fully go into the tank, but I really want to see a month towards the end of the season if the Raptors aren't seriously interested in making a play-in spot or something like that, where they just give the ball to Scotty and not just like playing a lot of minutes because he's already one of the league

leaders in minutes played, but just let him run every single possession because I just want to see it. I just think that, you know, maybe right now it's not like the most efficient thing to do, but I think in the long term, that's where you want to see Scotty in like your three, for example, to be that kind of like 28 and 8 kind of guy. We might be inching towards that. I mean, in December he has 26 assists to only six turnovers. And if you plot his, his assist to turnover ratio on a line graph from his debut until now. It just ascends up game by game. Up, up, up, up, up.

I mean, 26 assists, the six turnovers this month is insane for a rookie. And you mentioned it earlier how some Raptors fans want to see Van Bleet stand in the corner, become a spot-up shooter, less of a point guard. And when I watch this Raptors team, the roster construct is a little funky. There's no center. You got a couple small guards, Van Bleet and Flynn. Dragich is obviously away from the team.

team now, Trent is six foot five, but everybody else is between 6-6 and 6-9 from Banton to O'GN and Obie to Pascal Ciacom to Chris Boucher. And with guys like Barnes or even a second round pick like Bantt who's another tall playmaker Toronto got last year, I feel like the Raptors are positioned to build a roster that can feature some five-man lineups of all guys taller than 6-6 if they want to. Is this where things are trending for Toronto in the future? I think that's that's the design. I don't know that they have to, like, Fred Van Bleet's a big part of this too, right? And

they love his versatility and his switchability and, hey, even if the logical extreme of this is you have a bunch of six foot nine guys who can handle the ball, well, Fred's a really good off ball weapon and he can work both sides of the pick and roll too, and he's getting really good

at relocating for threes and stuff like that. So I think he fits there. But yeah, I think they basically think, hey, what's the hardest player type to guard? And what if we developed a bunch of those offensively who could also defend? The weaknesses that the Raptors have had this year outside of just injuries are the same ones that you would have expected, which is, yeah, they struggle a little bit with the lack of size. And you can, you know, obviously you can make up for some of that schematically.

You could switch. You can trap a lot. You can be really aggressive. But that comes with the cost of defensive rebounding and a high opponent free throw rate. And we're seeing that, which is entirely expected. And it's why the Raptors kind of right now top out around average. But that's a question that they'll, you know, that's a bigger philosophical is, do you need a center with this or can you, you know, if precious becomes what they think precious is,

can you go two, three, four, five of like sized guys and kind of, hey, you don't have size at the five, but you have a size advantage everywhere else. Like, is that enough? And that's, I don't think that's something we're going to get an answer to this year. but I think it's something that they're certainly trying to get more information on. What do you think about that, Will? Well, I'm actually going to flip this question on you because I talk about this every single day. But I want to get your thoughts on something where a lot of Raptor fans are in the position in terms of they want to see a center with this group.

I think ideally if you have a center with this group, they need to shoot threes as well. You need to bring a level floor spacing. And, you know, Miles Turner is one of those guys that a lot of Raptor fans have really, really been interested in. And I think there have been no actual tangible links connecting the two. But maybe there are. I don't know. I wanted to ask you that question. How do you think a guy like Miles Turner will fit with this group?

Obviously, considering the fact that they'll probably cost one of their core pieces to get Miles, if they even do getting that conversation. I think Miles Turner is a perfect target. I mean, a couple of weeks ago, I suggested DeMontos Sabonis as a target as well, like a Sabonis, Ciacom type of deal. And the pushback against that from a lot of Raptors fans, I understand. you know, the concerns, well, he can't fit in as defensively as much. He doesn't provide the shot blocking.

He can't shoot threes as well. This is what we need. And it's 100% true. So in that case, maybe going for Turner, who, by the way, wouldn't cost as much as Sabonis in a deal. Makes a lot more sense for Toronto than it would to go for subonus. And, I mean, I think for this team, you guys nailed it. The size advantage is really at like two, three, four positionally.

And the versatility aspect is like that with somebody like Scott, Barnes, you can throw him at point card, but you can also have your Van Bleed out there to have your typical traditional guy. The versatility and lineups, to me, is real where the future a team building's going to be. And for Toronto, though, you do that, you got to have a big. You've got to

have a big, because if you're going to win a playoff series, you might have to go through an Embed or Yokic or some guy who's not even in the NBA, like Victor Wambanjama, Chad Holmgren. It might have to be like a guy like that five, six years from now. So getting miles to... And even a guy like Janus, like we've seen one of

best formats for guarding him is not to put a big on them necessarily, but to have that big sealing off space, right? Like the Mark Gasol traps that Janus talked about having nightmares about or whatever. It wasn't that the underrated thing about that Raptors title team is the size they had. They could play with two huge bigs and Gasol and Ibaka if they wanted to, or they could play with just one of them and still have length with Kauai, Seacum, OG, all the other guys I had on that roster. I mean, Toronto was big when they won the title. Yeah. Which is why it's been a little surprising that they've just completely punted, which if you look at Toronto's center rotation in the last two years, it's genuinely up there with some of the worst centers that you have seen in the NBA. And I'm sorry.

You guys are Ken Birch fan? Ken Birch? We love Ken Birch so much that. If he's ever healthy again. Yeah, if he's ever healthy again. But seriously, though, people love Ken Burch so much here in a way that I think is appreciated because he does do a lot of little things. But at the same time, you shouldn't be loving Ken Birch that much, just in the hole. Steve Clifford loved Ken Birch way too much.

Played him ahead of Moamba for three years. I'm salty about that still. All right, I want to talk about the Miami Heat and Kyle Lowry. The Heat got a big win over the Pacers, 125 to 96 on Tuesday night. Tyler Hero came back, scored 26 points off the bench. He was one of the guys of many on the heat that either were in health safety protocols or were injured, sidelined. It's been a lot of guys out from Miami and the guy who's been really trying to carry the load there.

is Kyle Lowry. And last science game, he had eight points on three and nine shooting, but 12 assists. He's been doing that all season long from Miami as a distributor. I'm curious with all the great years Lowry had in Toronto, what's it like, you know, seeing an X go down to Miami and do what he's doing there. Look, listen, Kyle, like, we did that. Like, we had a long and fruitful marriage with Kyle.

Like, we had kids. The kids are grown up at university. Like, I mean, I guess college in the States. you know, they're going to get degrees and they're going to be living life. And you just kick back. And then Kyle's like, all right, I want to do a second phase of my life. And you're like, that's cool. And that's it.

You know, I think what you're seeing a lot is like, he fans love trolling Raptor fans because Raptor fans might be the easiest fan base in the league to troll. They're like, oh, Kyle might be. Yeah, you're right. Absolutely. And myself included. But they'll put things like, oh, wow, Kyle's really expanded as a playmaker. I never saw him do that in Toronto.

I'm like, all right, guys. If you're going to fall for this, like, you just want internet engagement at this point, which you know what, hey, listen, everyone wants the internet engagement, so just do you. But yeah, I mean, I think most fans are pretty at peace with Kyle. And honestly, there's something very cool watching Kyle right now operate with like, do you know who his second option is these days? Like, it's, it's, it might be like Max Truce. Yeah, it's true. So, it's true.

It's cool. I have the numbers in front of because like, obviously the Kyle thing in Toronto was obviously, was always, oh, he could turn any four guys into a point into at least a neutral unit. and the heat are basically like, okay, let's see. Let's see if you can do this full time. He's played almost 500 minutes this year with no BAM and no Jimmy, and the heat are only minus 15 total.

Like, they have survived and basically been an even team with Kyle on the floor and no Jimmy and no BAM. And his most, so his most common linemates in those lineups are in order. Dwayne Deadman, Duncan Robinson, PJ Tucker, Tyler Hero, Gabe Vincent. So he's taken Dwayne Dedman and Gabe Vincent

and no Bam, no Jimmy, and he's basically pulling them to, and not solo, but, you know, he's the guy. And he's basically pulling those lineups to near neutral, which is, you know, it's not quite pulling off a 30-point comeback with Terrence Davis, Malcolm Miller, and Chris Boucher, and Rhondae-Hawes-Jefferson. But it's close. It's not a, it's not a, it's not,

nothing. And Lowry's the type of guy who can get better, too. He's only shooting 32% from three. That number should go up closer to his career averages. And once the Miami Heat get all their guys back, Lowry's the type of guy who can come alive in the playoffs. When the heat had been healthy, and a lot of this was early in the season, I saw him settling into a role that was so similar to what he did for the Raptors championship team. When you look at his regular season numbers this year, it's kind of similar to what he did in 2018, 2019, his assists were really high.

He wasn't taking a lot of shots. I think over the course of the season, when you look at game to game, you might think, oh, come on, we need more from Kyle. He's a max player. We need him to score more and all this other stuff. But, like, he was just doing such a good job of giving everyone involved. He was almost force-feeding guys like,

bam, and guys like Tyler Hero. And those guys are having a great season. Yeah, and, like, that's exactly what he does. but I think in the playoffs, as you mentioned, when he needs to step up in some of these games, he will do that. But in the meantime, he's just getting everyone else involved.

He has no agenda whatsoever other than winning. And his fit with his team, I mean, like, if you really want to squint and say, like, Jimmy can serve a Kauai role, and BAM can be kind of like Pascal and also Mark at the same time. And then he's making Dwayne Dedman look like Sir Jabaka, which is kind of incredible.

Because Ibaka is certainly better than Dedman. But right now, as a pick-and-roll partner, looks very similar. Kyle has the effect on Biggs. I really like Miami when they go to the playoffs if they're healthy. I was thinking recently about years ago, I think my first exposure with Raptors fans was in 2017 when I wrote a story with the headline, the Raptors are good, but they might have to blow it up to be great. And this is where I argued about, you know, they're breaking up DeRosen and Lowry. Like everybody else was talking about at the time. It just felt like Toronto was stuck at the time. There's no way to get past

LeBron and the Cavs and a lot of Raptors fans agreed. A lot of Raptors fans were like, you should die. But Toronto's I'm sorry, Kevin. I guess this is four years in the making, but I'm sorry then. From your burners, right? Well, not even back then. That was from the maimed.

But, but I mean, Toronto's patience, I mean, it proved, they prove the value in waiting because Kauai Leonard becomes available and becomes Dorano still had to Rosen, because Dorano drafted a talented young player and Yacquit Pertil, Masei, and

Bobby Webster were positioned to land Kauai, compete for a title, and actually win the whole thing because they're a patient. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why people love Kyle, because he was with the Raptors through all of that. Like, he was the first year when he was here, like the team was garbage. And then they got better and better and better. And then

eventually they got the ultimate, what do you mean? Look, when you're talking about NBA teams, you need, like, one of these five specific players to win a championship pretty much. And, the Raptors finally, for the first time of the franchise history, got one, and then they won. And Kyle was a big part of that. The thought on my mind now, though, is what are the other teams around the league that are in a position, like, felt like the Rappers were when it seemed like they were stuck? Blake, who's a team on your mind that feels like they're stuck right now, but maybe you should stick with it?

Yeah, before this season, I probably would have said Denver, because, you know, they have enough pieces there. and it wasn't so much the pieces, it was the injury luck, but the injury luck is apparently never, ever going to let up for them. So, yeah, I mean, it's a tough question. I would say,

I still kind of think the Nuggets. I think it's tough because of the market maybe, but when you look at the Grizzlies and how Jaws was playing before he got hurt and how Jarrans looked this year, like we're a little early to talk about the grizzlies like this. But at some point, people are going to point to that

and be like, okay, well, you know, you haven't done X. I mean, they're having a great year. I don't know if they're a threat to make a playoff run or whatever. And they're a strong depth team. So probably the deepest team in the league. So like, they scream to me, hey, they're a consolidation option, right?

Cash in some of that depth. If a top player becomes available, that suddenly is, you know, the one D, you want to say with your jaw, Jaron, and Dylan. And then right above them in the standings, like, people, the handful of people who are paying attention are probably getting there a little bit with Utah because the regular season success hasn't developed into playoff success.

And that's kind of a big philosophical question. But I think they're the team that's probably in the biggest spot of questioning, hey, is this enough or is this just a really good regular season setup that that needs. needs a tweak. So I gave you a couple options there because I don't think anyone, it was Portland for a long time, but Portland's gone so far the other way that they don't, they don't register anymore. It's interesting. I mean, you mentioned three different teams at sort of three different stages. You know, Denver's been through it a little bit, but not as much as Utah and they're dealing with a bunch of injuries. Utah is largely healthy, but maybe they need one more tweak.

And Memphis isn't even there yet, but you do need to think proactively about like, how do we avoid we're in a situation where we are that team that can't just get over the hump. What can we do now to solve that? The Wizards are a team in the Eastern Conference where they made a number of changes over the years around Beale and Wall. I mean, Will, it feels to me like they're sort of the alternate universe situation with what could have happened with Toronto had things not worked out where they kind of kicked the can down the road.

They turned Wall into Westbrook and then Westbrook into all the pieces that they have now. And I mean, they're six and 12 after a great start of the season, bottom five and offense and defensive rating. Beale can be a free agent in July that they're the team that to me will, that feels like they're the most stuck at the moment. Yeah. And I think for them, I mean, I understand that they have a couple of guys that haven't

been healthy. You know, Rui hasn't been with the team. Thomas Bryan is an important player. But I mean, come on. Like, if you're a Washington fan, you have to be so miserable watching the Wizards all the time. But especially right now, because they're not doing anything at all. It's not been a good year for Bradley.

I'm not even, I'm sure Wizards fans probably want to keep Beal. But at this point, it's just like this, like, will he go, won't he go? Is he going to try to chase a scoring title? Is he going to do this and that? Is he going to get this big contract? Like, I think honestly, for a lot of them, probably just won off the ride eventually. And then you look at like the new guys they brought in. I mean, you know, you have the report from Josh Robbins to the Athletic

that several players have lost faith in the team's offense, which, I mean, if you look at athlete, like Spencer, didn't we eat who they signed. He's averaging 12 points per game in the season. He hasn't scored 20 in a month, which I understand 20 is not the thing.

That's crazy. But he averaged 20 in his last healthy year, right? So, and they have healthy pieces where, I mean, obviously Bradley is the one that everyone's going to call for. I think Philadelphia should be making calls.

I mean, I guess the Warriors should be making calls too, but to be honest, Wiggins has been a very useful piece for them in the wings that maybe they have more hesitancy moving him now than before. But even beyond that, KCP is a useful guy who can contribute to a playoff rotation. They probably get you something.

Even Kuzma might be in that conversation as well. I don't want to sound like Lakers fans. It's offer KCP and Kuzma to everybody. But they're actually decent pieces that, you know, have literally contributed to the championship before. So that team just needs to just blow it up, start over. They have a couple of young guys, you know. Unfortunately, they all kind of play power forward.

But just try to do something new Washington, please. This team is going nowhere. So you mentioned Blow It Up there and I think Philly is a team that should definitely try to flip Ben Simmons for Bradley Beal. I'm sure if Beal did become available, you would hear Boston being involved in that as well, considering his long-term connection with Jason Tatum.

Not quite sure they have the pieces for that. But another team is Golden State. They have a bunch of young guys. If they wanted to go all in for Beal, they could try to. And you guys actually, you saw the Warriors play pretty recently. granted they didn't send anybody up to Toronto, but Jonathan Camingo with the opportunity

in his first start had an excellent game. He had 26 points. What were your first impressions of him? I mean, he's clearly very talented. I think he's, I mean, it's hard to judge in a situation like that because obviously the Warriors would never just play a nine-man rotation with Cominga as the number one option.

But, I mean, he broke down the Raptors defense a few times. Obviously, he had a lot of turnovers. I think he had six in that game. A couple of plays that he sort of missed. Then really when you look at it, the box square, you're like, wow, you only had like one or two rebounds. It wasn't really doing too much else. But it's just a physical talent to be able to score.

I mean, he hit four threes as well. The shot was looking pretty sharp. And he is just like an electric athlete. I think sometimes you see players that just look different from the other guys, and he has that next level of athleticism, especially when you consider the fact that, what is he, the youngest guy in this rookie class? Yeah, youngest, and I think the third youngest player in the whole NBA right now. Yeah, so, I mean, he looks like a full-grown man already. And, I mean, the Raptors defense, it wasn't like the Raptors weren't taking that game seriously, like they were, but he was still able to get to, I think, 26 points.

So he's impressive. And if the Warriors want to make a move involving Cominga, I would see a lot of teams being interested. Now, where my question would come and where, you know, we saw this a little bit with James Wiseman last year. And that maybe wasn't a fair situation to evaluate Steve. of course, coaching staff or Wiseman, just given the nature of the year and the injuries. But the challenge for Golden State is going to be, how do you develop Jonathan Cominga while you're winning?

And that's not as easy as, hey, every couple games, we're going to bench everyone, and Kaminga can go off for 26. He's averaging eight minutes a game right now. And that's, you know, for a guy where he is in his development, you know, maybe that's an appropriate place. and he has played six games down in the G League in addition to what he played last year. So maybe you're okay with that.

But if you're looking to bridge eras and you're looking at bringing Kaminga along over the next two, three years, say you've got to find windows of opportunity for him to grow in an NBA role and not just thrive on the prospect side in these kind of nothing games or G League windows. And that's something that the Raptors have had, you know, you look at their successes and they have had challenges. with where Siakum started his rookie year and had to go down to the G league and kind of build it back up or Fred Van Vleet had to, you know, basically red shirt a year before he was getting in the mix. And those guys were, you know, Kaminga's the number seven pick.

Those guys weren't that. But OG is kind of the exception in the Raptors sphere and their player development success is where he was playing an OG role from day one. So that'll be the challenge for the Warriors. I think that's a part of why they brought in Jama Malala, who had had a big hand in the Raptors player development system and is now kind of Steve Kerr referred to him as his chief of staff now kind of on the player development side.

So I'm really curious to see how this goes. The last time I was in Toronto was for that Golden State Toronto NBA finals a couple of years back. And you guys came on stage with me for the Dunk on Cancer event. We had when we raised $10,000 Canadian dollars for, for cancer research. That was one of the most memorable nights of my life. I want to thank you guys on this pod for being part of that night. Yeah, that was a blast. I mean, that night was amazing.

You put together such a great crew. Yeah, and that was one of the highlights of a pretty crazy and a dramatic finals run. You know, I have a million great memories from that finals run, including, you know, I was sitting next to Will for game six in Oakland, which was amazing, given kind of how far or how long how far back we go and how kind of connected our careers have been and stuff. But yeah, man, that event was a blast and honored that you asked us to be a part of it and that we were able to raise so much so much money, even if it is Canadian money. Yeah, which by the way, Cassie, I do have to say my favorite memory of that was I had just played like a soccer game like across the street. So I was like running over to the venue that we were at.

So when I finally got there, I was like huffing and puffing and also quite sweaty. And I, you know, if there were any photos from that event, please just continue to delete all. Thank you. But that was an awesome event. I'm happy we raised so much money. You said you guys have had like kind of a link career. How long have you two known each other? Well, Blake has been in the career longer than I have, but only slightly.

And he was the managing editor of Raptors Republic and also working at the score when I was entering the industry. And this is like 2013, 2014. I remember like begging Blake just as a random nobody blogger like, hey, can you please read this 3,000 word piece I wrote about Jonas Valenus versus Andre Drummond, which was a huge debate at that time in Toronto. You wouldn't believe it. And yeah, I mean, it just kind of, he got me in the door for my first job. And he's, I mean, he's very humble. But Blake is an awesome mentor, not only for people in the Toronto market, but especially in the people in the Toronto market. He's the number one. Raptors reporter has been so in the longest time.

And the best part is that he just continues to look for ways to uplift people. So I know Blake, this is more sentimental than you expected, but, you know, I owe a lot to you, man. Yeah, I'm out of the mentor game now, though, on the Raptors game. I'm on the sports radio side now. I'm, uh, banging, hot takes, Blake. Oh, my God. Hot takes at 6 a.m. baby. No, I'm, it's all the, it's all the leaf reporters I'm going to help now.

Uh, not the, not the Raptor's crew. got to be hockey first now, you know. Well, thank you guys for joining me today. I appreciate it. Thank you, Kevin. Appreciate you. Thanks, Kevin. Man. It was a blast. Hey, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to The Void. I hope you really enjoyed that conversation with Blake Murphy and William Lou. I love chatting with those guys. As a special Christmas bonus,

here's a piece of my conversation with Magic Rookie, Jalen Suggs. We got into a whole bunch like Chet Holmgren. And also, be sure to two. tune into Spotify, Green Room. The Ringer is going to have more live stuff coming out there in the coming weeks and months during the NBA season. And hopefully we'll have some more players on, too, because I really enjoyed this conversation with Jalen Sucks.

So, you know, a lot of people who listen to my podcast know, you are teammates with one of my all-time favorite players, Mo Bamba. Okay. What's your best Mo Bamba story? Oh, man. Oh, my best Moebomboehs story. So I met Mo this summer in about July. We went on the Jimmy Kimmel show.

And he said, what's up, teammate? Like, you know, when we first saw each other, no, and then we laughed about it. He's like, nah, like, you're not coming here. Like, you know, just, you know, joking around. And then come full circle, draft night. You know, I get drafted. And he hits me.

It's like, I told you you were coming here, teammate. I mean, I think that that's the best story I got. this year with my board moment. I'm happy to see him coming along this year, man.

It was some rough years before you got there in Orlando with him being glued to the bench by Steve Clifford, but he's getting consistent minutes now

coming through. And I think he kind of serves as an example of how, you know, high achieving high school and college player, sometimes it's not always

a smooth start. You know, and for you have your injury early on the season. You've been out right now. You know, in the games that you did play,

whether it was in Summer League, preseason or regular season. What has surprised you the most since entering the NBA in terms of how the game is played on the court, the level of physicality, whatever it might be? I think the levels of physicality is a lot more than I thought it would be in the pace of the game. You know, you watch guys like Chris Paul and, you know, some of the better players in the league, Trey Young, you know, guys who just don't get sped up and, you know, they make the game look really slow and methodical and they're able to pick it apart. But, you know, once you get out there, you know, you realize it's a little bit different, you know,

and there's some of the best, you know, players in the world. So I think, you know, there's the speed and the physicality. You know, I've been two things that, you know, caught me a little off guard coming in, but I've, you know, gotten adjusted to, you know, and really I've been starting to feel real comfortable with right before, you know, I ended up being hurt. Somewhat of a related question to what you just said from Thomas Lindsay in the green room chat. He said, after your first lot of NBA games, what do you think is the most,

important skill you need to improve on in order to take it to the next level? I think for me, the most important skill is, again, just going back to the pace, you know, playing at my pace. Because again, those last couple games, you know, I felt like I was really starting to get it down a little bit and, you know, and find my rhythm in it. You know, I'm picking my spots and when to attack, you know, when to distribute, when to be aggressive on defense and things like that. So I think that that's the main thing I've been focusing on, you know, over these past,

over these past, you know, a couple of weeks is sitting with the coaches, seeing what they see, talking with them about it, you know, during the games and things like that, you know, just so I can get it all down because, you know, the shooting and finishing all that stuff will come, you know, the best players in the world, you know, go through their slums, but, you know, especially me being a rookie coming in and, you know, trying to get justice to everything, you know, that's the last thing I'm worried about. But I think Pace is one thing that definitely can improve and, you know, will improve. I had a question for you about, like, who's the toughest

defender you've faced so far. And Jim Andrews in the chat said, who's the hardest player you've had to guard so far? So, you know, like, which is he? Like, who's the toughest player you've had to guard and the toughest player you've had to go against so far? I think the toughest guard so far has been Jen Chardon. Again, one of those guys that you can't speed up. And, you know, he's able to knock down shots and get to wherever he wants to go, really. You know, you kind of got to, you know, you kind of got to hope you miss and get the best contest that you can.

So, I mean, that was a really hard guard. I learned a lot for playing against him two times. And I think the hardest defender is definitely Marcus Smart. He knows where he's going before you're going to go. And, you know, he's physical. He's smart. And yeah, just a really tough defender, you know, and rightfully so. You know, he's well-known, you know, around the lead for that.

I've been, I mean, you just said, like, he knows where you're going to go. Is that one of the things that you feel like as a, as a guy? guy you're going to be running offense that you need to really get adjusted to is guys know where you're trying to get to they know all your moves all your spots yeah definitely uh you know i mean you're on you're on the scotter report now and the scotter report is really in depth in this league you know and guys go watch film on you uh you know films uh clips that are picked uh you know about things that you like to do so um you know that's definitely a thing but i think that's where you know me playing at my own pace and you know uh dictating you know what i want to do and where i want to do

where I want to go and, you know, what we need to do as a team, you know, that possession or while we're on the floor comes into play. I mean, guys know that James Hardin is going to between the legs and, you know, wanting to get files and then, you know, maybe hit a step back. But, you know, they don't stop it. So, you know, really just, you know, trying to control what I control out on the court and, you know, play at my pace and get all that under, you know, under my control. What are your thoughts on the way in which the game has evolved over the years since,

you know, we were younger watching it and where it? is now and where it's going. Where do you think it's going? This is to a more positionless game. You got you got big for us stepping out, knocking down shots, bigs for able to put the ball on the floor and, you know, really cause problems for defenses. And, I mean, it's hard to guard, you know. It's at this point, you know,

the analytics and everything says, you know, you shoot layups or you shoot three-pointers. But you have outliers and, you know, guys who really driving that mid-redge game, you know, like Chris Paul, Devin Booker, you know, John Moran, you know, the ways able to get to the paint and, you know, knock down floaters and finish at the rim. So I love where it's going, you know, in a position list, you know, fast-paced basketball,

you know, very competitive. So, yeah, I'm happy to be a part of it. How would you feel if Adam Silver releases a statement tomorrow when he's like, we're moving the three-point line back? Um, I don't know. I don't, I don't think I hardly react any crazy way. I kind of ask why. I mean, you got guys like Steph Dame, of course,

so I'm pulling from the logo, and there's nothing you can do about it. But I don't feel like I doesn't need to move it back. I think the game is beautiful right now. You know, I mean, I remember I was reading recently, like on grantland.com seven years ago, guys like Kirk Goldsbury, you know, big numbers guys writing about how the league could evolve.

And they were right about how the league could evolve. But the question they asked then was, the game going to become ugly and like all teams are going to play the same. I think teams today try to get the same shots, but they do it in different ways. I mean, like, you guys run a dramatically different offense from the next team to the next team. It's, you might be trying to get a lot of threes, layups, and free throws, but every team runs a different type of offense. It looks different. How much check Coleman are going to have you watched? That's my boy. Any goes to his ex. So, you know, I was pretty much every game. Every game. Can you give me your, your best

Mike Schmitz or Mel Kiper impression and give me a breakdown of his game for some people who don't know anything about Chet Holmgren? Oh man my boy Chet he's a do-it-all type of guy and he's a really unselfish guy honestly you know he's able to he's able to defend the best of him you know he's the on ball of course can get a little better you know as seven-footers you don't see many seven-footers sliding and guarding you know at at 25 feet but I mean he's one of the best rim protectors I've ever seen. And, you know, being able to play against him, you know, growing up and, you know, seeing his progression to where, you know, I was a senior, he was a junior in high school.

And, I mean, it's tough to finish. Like, you know, you got to get real creative and, you know, with how you going in there because he's a smart shot block. He just doesn't jump up and block. You know, he times you. He knows how to move his, maneuver his body and things like that. And then offensively, man, he can knock it down. He can handle.

You know, of course, he has a lighter frame. But, you know, he's still able to. get to his spots and, you know, rise up and shoot over people because he's seven foot. And he's got, you know, branches for arms. So, you know, Che is going to be great. He loves to work. I think that's the thing that's going to make him great. You know, once he gets to this next step, you know, he stays in the gym. He's always wanting to get better. So I can't wait to see what's next room. I'm behind him every day and, you know, every part of his journey. So, you know, right now we're shooting 33% from three. It's only on 27 shots. That number should go way up

for him, you know, considering what he's done it at lower levels. Like, offensively, there's no question about a skill level. Defensively, no question about a shop blocking. Though the one thing that I hear when I talk to NBA people is they say he's 195 pounds. Like, based off your experience so far in the NBA, I'm curious about your thoughts on on the need for strength. I mean, it's such a perimeter oriented game. Like for a big man like him or big Zuvian.

even gone against. Like, is it length that's more bothersome? Or how much of it is it strength when you're bumping the opponent inside, trying to carve out space? Like, how important is it for somebody like Chad Holmgren to add 20, 30 pounds of muscle over the next X amount of years? You know, he definitely has to put it on. And he's done a great job and, you know,

and working on his body and continue to get stronger. You know, I was working with him all before I went to, you know, before I left for Gonzaga, you know, we were working out and lifting together all the time. And, you know, again, that's one thing that, you know, he's dedicated to and, you know, he's really put his time and effort into his, you know, getting his body right. And he's gotten a lot stronger. And I mean, it's just, it's only going to continue at the next level. I mean, is he going to get to, you know, 250 rocked up? Absolutely not. But, you know, strong enough, you know, to where he's not getting moved. And he already doesn't,

you know, of course, he gets moved a little bit. But he was able to stand his ground and, you know, he's learned ways and, you know, to how to have that not be an issue. Again, like I said, the way that he maneuvers and, you know, is able to use his length to an advantage. And, you know, when guys really try to, you know, just jump into him and, you know, and use strength, you know, he just kind of swallows him, really.

You know, his arms, you know, are just right over top of you. And, you know, even if you do that, it's hard to get the shot up. So, I mean, it's going to contain it to get better. Does it need to get better? Yes. But if that's got a reason, you know, to, you know, not take him where he's supposed to go,

you know, which is high and next year's draft, You know, I appreciate that very honest scouting report. Seriously, you could have just listed all positives, but you're like, yeah, of course, the stuff you're going to get better at. Do you ever feel like you're in a dream, or does this feel like it's supposed to be happening right now? I think it was meant to be. I think everything was meant to be.

You know, people sacrificed a lot for me to get here. You know, I've sacrificed and put in a lot to be here. And, you know, now to be able to reap the benefits and rewards and, you know, continue to keep starving and get better. You know, I think it was all fate. And when are you coming back, Jalen? Do you know? Not yet. You know, I'm working every day, rehab, and, you know, with the staff, you know, I'm trying to get things better. That one of those things you can't really rush. So, you know, just continuing that, you know, get better day by day. And so I know you're a Call of Duty guy. Are you playing video games at all with that thumb problem?

Nope. And it's killing me. Oh, my God. So you have, do you play Warzone or multiplayer in Cod? I play multiplayer. Okay. So you don't know, so you're not then interested in the new Warzone map yet. Nah, but I haven't heard good reviews. So. Oh, come on, man. I like it better. I think the new Warzone map is way better. It's more terrain, less buildings, but you should give it a chance. Once your thumb is ready, I know you're ready to play NBA basketball, but you should try Warzone. That's more important. Well, Jaylon, I appreciate you joining Spotify Green Room tonight and the Ringer NBA Live. So hope you have a great rest of your night, man, and best luck for the rest of the season. Of course, thank you, too.

Thank you again to William Lou and Blake Murphy from Sportsnet for joining The Void as well as Jalen Suggs for coming on Spotify Green Room. Thank you to our audio producer Jesse Lopez for helping make the void. And with so many Raptors in health and safety protocols this year, our video producer Dylan Berkey and I are going to hold the Scotty Barnes video that we were planning on doing for a later date instead. On Thursday on the Ringers YouTube page, we're going to be dropping a video about Carl Anthony Towns. Also, you should know there will be no fraud. episode of the mismatch on Christmas Eve or on New Year's Eve. So the next time you're going to hear me and Chris Ronan will be next Tuesday, December 28th. We'll have another great episode coming next week. And we're also going to have another episode of the void that same

week. So thank you so much again for listening. I hope you have a fun day and happy holidays.