The Mismatch - First Impressions of This Year’s Rookie Class in Summer League

Episode Date: August 10, 2021

Verno and KOC do a big summer league catchup after the first few days of play, starting with this year’s rookie class and why rookies are more able than ever to contribute to a winning team in the NBA (1:00). They take a closer look at standout Kings rookie Davion Mitchell (34:00), Cade Cunningham’s leadership (43:00), and Alperen Sengun’s play for the Rockets (0:00). Then they talk about the sophomore players in summer league, including Desmond Bane, Obi Toppin, and Tyrese Maxey, as well as the veteran players who have popped up (44:40). Finally, a drop of news about where Dennis Schröder may end up has broken: the Celtics have offered a one-year, $5.6 million deal (1:00:45). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Gene and Roger is the story of the two most powerful, influential movie critics of their time, Gene Siskel and Roger Ebert. You can find Gene and Roger on the Big Picture feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Here's a quick trailer. It seemed like a crazy idea for a TV show. Take two rivals and let them duke it out about movies. But Gene Sisko and Roger Ebert quickly became the most popular film critics in the country. Millions of viewers tuned in to see whether they vote thumbs up or thumbs down. This is the story of two unlikely superstars who changed the way we argue. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Brian Raftery, and this is Gene and Roger.

Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. He does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O. Bomer. Kevin O. Concer. A.K.A. Kevin O. Conflict. Kevin O. Kloom. Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Burnow! It's Summer League. And Marin Fader's new book about Janus is out today. I'm excited for that, for her, and for us, for everybody that gets to read it. But yeah, man, it's a good time. It's a good time. Talk about somebody that's living right. Write a biography about the guy. The book's going to come out either way. And then he ends up becoming legendary, having one of the great NBA finals performances ever. casting up a finals MVP and the bucks winning their first championship in decades. I mean, you can't, you can't time that any better than Mirren Fader did.

And so, yeah, go grab that book today. It's available at all your local booksellers, Amazon.com, everywhere you would get books. Yon. The improbable rise of an NBA MVP by Marin Fader. Go check it out. Really great book. I love it. You're midway through reading it, I think, right now?

I am. I am. But we're going to have her on on Friday. So talk to her about it because I love his story. I love Janus, as does everybody. If you don't like Janus, something's wrong with you. Summer League did start, Kevin, and it's gone well so far. I got very, very nervous when the first night on Sunday night,

the NBA had postponed the opening Wizards game. And I was like, oh, no, because we had heard Delta variant and COVID had been going around Las Vegas pretty badly. They had reinstituted masks indoors and a mandate. And so my great fear was, you know, Summer League got screwed up last year. There was no Summer League. And now this year, that was like the opening of Summer League. And they had to postpone the game.

It's been pretty clean since then. And I got to tell you, flipping that on and watching all of these rookies that have been drafted, I have had the absolute best time watching this over the course of the last couple of days. Now, people can do the whole, oh, Summer League doesn't matter, who cares about Summer League? Here's the thing. It was so hard in my estimation, and you can speak to this as someone who has to do infinitely more work on this than do I.

this was the hardest evaluation year I can remember. You know, I had less strong opinions about players, weird seasons. Everybody had their own struggles. Some of the darlings of college basketball were not good. Kansas was not a great team. Duke down. Obviously, their coach is going out, North Carolina down. Their coach is going out.

And there was a lot of the Kentucky. Lucky was awful. A lot of the Blue Blood, you know, big prospect teams, they weren't good this year. And not only that, and those are the ones that are on TV the most, not only that, you had this disjointed year, you didn't have fans in the stands, you had them only playing 20-something games. So, you know, outside of the NCAA tournament, I didn't feel, I watched less college basketball last year than I've ever watched since I was a child. And so now getting to see these guys and getting to see them around NBA-sized athletes and being thrown into their NBA system, as it were, with those coaches trying to get them

involved, this has been a joy. I feel like I'm getting to see so many of these guys for the first time in. like a real basketball game, just given that I didn't pay as much attention this past year. What about you? And just flipping this on and watching it these first couple of days. I mean, I think the sentiment that I've seen a lot of people, you know, share on Twitter and, you know, forms and everything is like, wow, this class has a chance to be extraordinary. I mean, we saw Jalen Suggs make an outstanding play after outstanding play in his game for Orlando. Scardy Barnes shining for Toronto.

Jalen Green just looking extraordinary with some of the stepbacks, but it wasn't just the top 10 guys. It's down the line. We're seeing so many good performances, Trey Murphy going off for the Pelicans. We're seeing flashes up and down this entire first round into the second round. And, you know, like you said, the college basketball year was not great for a lot of different reasons.

But this draft class itself could be really loaded. And, you know, even though it might be overreacted, acting just after a week or so of some summer league games and just a couple of days of Vegas summer league here with all 30 teams there. Yeah, dude, this class does really have a chance to be special. I thought it was very interesting. You're certainly right.

And nobody in the top five picks, we'll say, so far feels anything but great about their situation given the debuts of Cunningham and Mobley, Barnes, and then who am I missing? who was at their Green and Sugs. Yeah, Jayla Green, who was great in his first night. Right? Yeah, those five guys.

And inevitably, somebody's not going to pan out and you look back and once upon a time, we all got crazy nervous about Trey Young at Summer League. So again,

it's not the end-all be-all. I am of the opinion that when you are watching these guys, I'm looking for, in many cases, just what is not summerly good? What is something that you see them doing that is easily translatable? And that's the great thing about these guys, is that so many of them, you watch them, and you say that is easily translatable to the NBA.

In the end, space is space, right? If I could come behind a screen and I can bury shots, like, that's going to happen as soon as this season starts, right? If I can split guys off the dribble, if I've got great footwork, if I'm a dog that tries to block everything at the rim, like all those things are translatable, right? Sometimes you're going to have good shooting nights. Sometimes you're not.

But there's a lot of things you can look for, I think. And I think there's a real reason to be very, very optimistic in many cases of these rookies. All the way down the line, you know, you were talking about, you know, Trey Murphy, I watched the game last night that had Cam Thomas in it, a kid from LSU, who averaged 23 points a game for LSU. I mean, they said he's going to be able to get buckets. There's no question he's going to get buckets. And like it wasn't even a super efficient night for him.

He was 19.6 of 16, but it was the way in which he generated those shot opportunities. You saw him get to the line, get to the basket, his ability that creates space off the dribble. Like you said, guys are going to have on shooting nights and off shooting nights. Like, you know, we're not overreacting here to two summer league games for some guys, one summer league game for others. It's just about like with Trey Murphy, it's not just that he's hitting standstill threes. That's going to space the floor for Zion. It's that he's full on sprinting up the floor, catching the ball, hopping to stop and elevate straight into his jump shot and draining three's all net. It's the fact that at six foot nine, he's showing the athleticism inside with the poster dunk he had to play, you know, maybe some four.

You know, Zion, you know, maybe five. Well, however you want to state it with small ball lineups, use him on the interior, get creative with some small ball for the pelicans. And so, you know, with these guys, it's not always about the results. It's about the process and how they're making plays happen, which is what makes it so exciting to watch summer league because you see those flashes. You got to know what you're watching for, right? Like, what is what do I, what do I watch and I say that would happen in NBA game? Because there's always bullies in this thing, guys that are just bully balling and pushing guys

out of the way and getting to the basket because they're bigger and stronger. and like that kind of stuff that doesn't take when you get when all the NBA players are playing. That being said, I heard the most fascinating discussion yesterday during the course of one of these games. So it was Mark Jones and Dorisberg were on the call. And that Cam Thomas kid had a moment where, I mean, it was just like this, this level of skill that you just don't see. from rookies typically in the NBA. And yet it has not been uncommon recently.

And so they talked about this. Like, it seems as if these guys are so much more ready to come in and be able to contribute to NBA teams. And their skill level in many cases is so high. And they get into this discussion, because these are the kind of discussion you could have at Summer League. And this is so fascinating what Doran, Boris Burke was happy to say. So Mark Jones said, Atori Messina, legendary overseas coach,

told him that it is not true that overseas players get more skill development. That's not so. that in America, they do a tremendous amount. And then there's so much more individual skill development that goes on with these players. And that now they are getting to this age and you see their skill level and what they can do with the ball and their, you know, the euros and all this stuff. It's unbelievable. And he says, and that's not the common narrative, you know, but this is a guy that coached over there. And then Doris Burke chimed in with the most fascinating thing I have never thought of. And she said, you know, Fran Fershilla, who does all of our individual, you know, for years has done the European scouting for ESPN, said he said that it is true that these players from America are so much more skilled now.

And they are even more skilled than their, you know, overseas counterparts. but in Europe, at a very young age, I had never heard this before, at a very young age, they play on a shot clock. And it forces a skill development that you have to have everything in your toolbox when you're playing with a shot clock. And this has been a thing amongst American basketball fans. It's like on lower levels, and especially in high school, they don't have shot clocks in America, right? I don't know why we don't. I've never really like dove into it. And some have instituted it.

It's become a thing where some places and some different, you know, jurisdictions or states have started to play with a shot clock, but that they don't. And that these kids from overseas, they start playing with a shot clock very early. And it becomes this forced way of being able to play as a team, make quick decisions, all of these things that we say, they just know how to play. And that they drew a line between that and playing with a shot clock earlier in their development. And I thought that was so fascinating because I could see how that's true.

Yeah, that's a great point. I really can. I just did a Google search as you were talking about that for high school basketball shot clock. And the first thing that pops up is how Iowa high school basketball basketball. basketball is going to implement shot clocks starting in the 2020-23 season. Wow. That was just approved.

And that's high school. That's high school. Yeah, not even lower levels necessarily. I mean, it's true. Like, it's different playing fields. It's a different experience for high school players or middle school players or elementary school players growing up in different areas of the country, different states or different areas of the world.

Like, that's a great point. I haven't thought of that either, you know, and how much that can help really promote development. And I've seen high school games where it gets to the higher level and somebody's got some unbelievable player on the team. And so the team just tries to limit the possessions. Yeah. And they'll just play them 32 to 30 if that's if that if that's a way you want to play. But if you are forced to learn at a young age how to play within a shot clock, I do think that that could, it greatly would help your development because you're going to a shot clock in college. which they've now reduced, which has been better.

Way better. Way better. And it's probably way better for their development. You know what I'm saying? I think it's definitely shot clock. I think it's just also the access to information. Think about how much easier it is now to type in, you know, Kobe into YouTube. And like there's thousands of videos with like all of his moves.

And you can watch those videos. You can have your phone out on the basketball court. Try it. record yourself, then look back at what you might have done right or wrong, like self-assessment and, you know, looking at your own game. And this is true for anything, absolutely anything. Like, I can give an example totally different outside of basketball. My mother was a hairdresser for 30 years. And like throughout the 1990s and into the 2000s, she like around prom season would always have like so many girls coming in to have their hair done for prom. And in the last eight

years or so, it's like not many girls come in. Why do you think that is? Because they're watching tutorial videos on YouTube and the friends are doing it for each other. Oh, wow. So like around prom season, like what used to be a super busy season suddenly became a lot slower. And that's because people are doing it themselves because they're learning how to do it from watching YouTube of like looking at, you know, tutorials. It's a lot better to watch, you know, how to do something than like read about it like in a book or something like that oftentimes. So I mean, that's a big part of it. You know, of it for NBA players as well, I'm sure. I can't remember what the name of the product is, but my son has it, where it's like a,

it's a yellow ball, but the ball's got a tracker in it, and he can literally pull up on his iPad, like, it's skill development, basketball, skill development, right? He can pull up on his iPad or on a TV, and he follows along. It's almost like it's like guitar hero or something, except it's basketball. The basketball is a real basketball, but it's got a tracker. in it. So when you're dribbling on your right hand, it's counting on the screen, you know, what you're doing. And then like the between the leg stuff. It's count. I mean, and this is just, he's just a kid. You could do it in your bedroom. Yeah. For goodness sakes, you know what I mean?

It's pretty affordable for, you know, a lot of people to get something like that. He got it for Christmas. I think, uh, I think my wife got it on an Instagram ad or something. Probably under a hundred bucks or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Because it's just a downloadable program and you're just paying for the ball. yeah yeah yeah i mean no it's true there's just so many so many resources available for people you know like whether it's the rules you know changing you know whether it's like extending three point line or adding a three point line or whether it's adding a shot clock or whether it's the fact that you can have the internet and you have the access to absolutely everything which is

you know in society sometimes for better sometimes for worse um in this case for better and i i really do believe that that's like because you you talk to these young players like i understand interviewed Cam Thomas because I'm trying to write a story about him for, you know, the preseason. And, uh, yeah, like he's, he's like an introspective person, you know, who is a hard worker, who looks for feedback, who desires feedback and criticism and says he looks, you know, watch his other players to try to take everything he can from them. And you can see that like Jalen Green, for example, how often is it that you see a young, you know, prospect enter the league with fluid looking footwork doing the type of

step back that people often call a travel because he has already, you know, is in the process of mastering the timing of the gather step, you know, so it's not a travel. So officials aren't calling that. So he can create that space off the bounce to create a three-pointer. And he did it multiple times. And his first summer league game and it looked amazing. So you have a combination of elite athleticism and speed with footwork that comes as a result of good, you know, teaching, you know, from the people around him, you know, and also an openness to learn that he himself has and resources that allow him to do that and seek that guidance from people that he may never meet, you know, from watching videos and learning about it. So, I mean, I think it's all of these things that

play into why and the rules too. Like the NBA now, it's, you know, offense. It favors offense with, you know, no hand-checking and all the rules that have changed the last 20 years or so. But all these things combined, I think, have created an environment for young players to get better, quicker, and enter the league more season and ready to contribute than ever before. Yeah, and I was having a discussion with somebody this past weekend about this, about players not only being able to contribute early, but teams' willingness to let them contribute early because it was not that long ago. rookies simply did not play for bad teams.

I was for good teams. I'm sorry. Rookies didn't play for good teams. They played for bad teams. Yeah, you're right. They got minutes on bad teams because those teams were bad. They got the high draft picks and the high draft picks played for those bad teams. But good teams, especially playoff teams, you can go back. And it was, it's not that long ago when you think about this.

I remember during a playoff year, I told somebody this this weekend, During a playoff season, there were a ton of complaints about Memphis not playing their rookies. It was like Jordan Adams, Russ Smith, a couple guys, right? And I remember going through and being like, I wonder if there are other rookies that are getting minutes in the playoffs. And I went and looked and there was one. And he had played in the G League most of the season. And it was Clint Capella. So that's not that long ago.

And that's of all 16 playoff teams. there was one rookie that playoff season that got real minutes. And that's not that long ago. And now, I mean, you got rookies contributing on literally every team that is playing. It's a different deal. And if they're not rookies, they might be second year guys. I think part of it is they're better. There's no question.

They're just better than they were, you know, five, ten years ago in many cases. I'm saying as a collective, not individual players, right? There's obviously been individual players that were amazing early. The other thing is when you're building out of team and you're paying these guys $40, $50 million when they're taking up that percentage of the salary cap, you have got to the, the gold in the NBA is players that outperform their contracts. And you have no better opportunity at that than somebody that is on a rookie contract. So you're paying four or five million bucks for a guy that can start for you in many cases,

play 35 minutes for you and give you like real production all the while developing along the way. Like, I mean, you've got to have four and five million dollar contributors if you've got one or two guys that's on your team that's making, you know, 30, 40 million dollars a year, which is, honestly, all the good teams are going to have that. Every team that has a chance at winning is going to have two guys that are making an absolute fortune. And then they're going to have a lot of guys on their team that aren't. And the trick is, can you get those guys that aren't to outperform their deals and rookies, they're as good a chance as you got as anybody, unless you're in a big market and somebody just signs with you because they want to play for that team

and they're willing to take less money. I mean, think about like Jalen Suggs. So Jalen Suggs, you know, we saw him drafted fifth by the magic. His salary this coming season will be $6.5 million and then $6.9 million, then $7.3 and then 9.2. That's the first four years of his contract. That's what he'll make. Year one, he could very well exceed the salary of a $6.6 million player. When we saw him as somebody, everything he did against him.

Zaga, two-way player who just, you know, constantly hustles on defense, makes plays on the ball, aware off the ball. On offense, he facilitates, he's smart, hits threes. Like, we are, like, we know who Jalen Suggs is. We saw it in first game of the Summer League. He hit threes when defenders went under screens. You see that play he made in the last 30 seconds, a 2-1-1 fast break, and he stopped the play. Like, that is Jalen Sugg.

So if you're the magic, you have him making, like I said, in the fourth year, year, 9.2 million, in the third year, 7.3 million, he could be worth like double at least or triple that on the open market at that point. So for the magic, when you're team building and you have a good player, you know, drafted high that's contributing, that's insanely valuable. Never mind the guys that, like you said, are making three, four, five million dollars that are drafted, you know, after 15 or after 20. Like, it's just, that's the thing with, you know, we mentioned him in passing, Tray Murphy earlier. He's making $3 million this year.

He'll be making $5.2 million in his fourth year. Trey Murphy, 6'9 guy who could drain threes, defend, make smart plays, maybe play inside for you a little bit, run, you know, as a screener, hang around the Dunker spot if you really want him to do that. If you want him to do that, like keep the versatility he has. I mean, that dude, those players make $20 plus million on the open market. So getting those guys is like the biggest thing for your franchise. it comes to building a winning team.

Think about now. Think about it. They both signed these $200 million extensions, but look at the value you've gotten out of Luca and Trey. They haven't made real money yet. Yeah. You know what I mean? They just signed for their real buddy.

Mm-hmm. And it feels like they've been in the league a long time. They have it. They've played three seasons. Yeah. One of them's one of the top five players in the league. The other one just led a team to the Easter conference finals, for God's sakes. And by the way,

his deal doesn't even kick in until next year. Like he could, he's probably going to be a leading MVP candidate entering this season. Yes. Making $10.2 million. And this is one of the reasons why there are a lot of people who understandably argue there shouldn't be a draft, you know, like that players should be able to sign straight into the open market and make what they should make. I mean, there's arguments on both sides for a lot of different reasons.

But for as it is now, as it is today, if you hit on a draft pitch, those first four years for you, never mind the security afterwards with a restricted free agent with another potentially additional four years, man, like there's nothing better. Like, that's the most valuable thing. I understand that and I understand that argument. But in terms of it never happening, I would say it will never happen. And here's why. You've already got veterans that are getting replaced every single year. Right. Yeah, that's a big part of it. It's cost more to keep those veterans around. Your veteran minimum can many times work against you. a guy that would have an NBA roster spot is getting replaced for a lesser player.

The other thing is you want to have that money for your superstars, right? And there were just too many mistakes made by owners back in the day. They did it the other way. Glenn Robinson got a fortune when he came out. Big country got a fortune when he came out. There were all manner of guys that got an absolute fortune before they had proven anything in the NBA. You want the money that is floating around the NBA to be able to get in the hands of the proven guys. Glenn Robinson, by the way, was a 10-year deal, $68 million.

Yeah. According to Wikipedia, that still stands as the richest NBA rookie contract as a salary cap for rookies was implemented the following season. So that was way back in 1994. But what if he was a bust? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know, I mean, like a lot of those guys got an average. fortune, and it wasn't for the betterment, right? You want, you want that money that the league is

generating to be going into the hands of the guys that are truly generating that money, which, in fairness, is the lucidantages of the world, but Lucas, he just got his 200 million. You know what mean? If you're good, it's going to be there for you, and you're going to, you know, by the time these guys get to year four, they are cashing in with generational wealth, if they're outstanding players. And ultimately, like, even if you remove the max contract, you know, for players, and let's say Luca could have signed for 60 million annually, then that can screw some of the middle tier players, sure, or the lower tier players who are on the back end of your roster. And suddenly, I mean, like, it's a complicated, super complicated conversation that, like,

goes far deeper than we're touching on it here with the financial side of the league and everything and how the money is distributed. But, like, the NBA, you know, 51, 49. with the split with revenue between teams and players is better than what a lot of leagues have right now. We're talking about it. We've mentioned Suggs a couple of times because I was watching that game last night. And I was just, I don't care. I think he was like nine for 22 or something like that. It was the plays, he had three blocks down the stretch that were just otherworldly.

Like the level of attention it takes to do that, the level of like, fight it takes to do that. And he is, and fast, he is. I mean, look, I did a whole show about this right before the draft. So it's not like I watched one summer league game and this is what I think. I watched that game last night. And as I said to you, a couple of weeks ago, I don't know why everybody's not talking about him. There were very few things I was confident about in this draft. He was one of them. And Moody, who I really liked for the Warriors, was another one of them, right? Like just confident of what they're going to be. And that Suggs has an extremely high ceiling, in my opinion.

And so watching that, it confirmed everything I believed about the kid and what you saw from him at Gonzaga. So I tweeted out, look, I don't know who it's going to be. But there is no chance that there's going to be four guys better than him. I just don't see it. No, I don't know. And obviously they've all looked good so far, but we know the way this stuff plays out. So it's not that crazy to think. The draft's never right in terms of determining who the top five guys are.

My statement was just a compliment to him, right? And I said that there's going to be a lot of regret from some teams. I'm not kidding you, Kevin. 99. No, I don't even say 99.9. A hundred percent of the response that was like negative to that, a hundred percent was all Raptors fans. What is up with y'all Raptors fans?

Like, I didn't even say Scotty Barnes. I didn't say Scottie Barnes was the one. Like, it might be Evan Mobley. It might be Kay Cunningham. It might be Jaylen Green. I don't know. And I don't know if it's because the mocks all had him. It was a rough day for Raptors fans, man, because they saw the drive-age comments when he said,

like, you know, Toronto is not my preferred destination. and then he kind of had a backtrack off those comments. There's a rough day for Roberts fans. You have to understand. Scotty Barnes was awesome in his debut. But they're all like sending me Scotty Barnes box score. They're like, Scotty Barnes is awesome.

We're fine over here. And I'm like, bro, I wasn't even talking about y'all. Did Yusef Nerkis respond to you? He told me that I should be analyzing the draft for the ringer. Because they got some bum that works over there. What? All right. So I saw that yesterday where you posted about Ben Simmons's shooting with the wrong hand. And Yusuf Nurkich was like, I can't believe Kevin O'Connor still has a job or something. I'm like, hold on that. Now, me and you have been doing this show for over four years. I'm like, why does Yusuf Nurkich? Like, I could understand if that was like Tristan Thompson, I get it, right? He's mad at us.

Why? What's you come? Do you even know? Do you even know? him. Have you ever spoken to? No. I think it was probably because, I mean, the tweet I sent before last season when I said the Blazers are comically overrated. I said, you know, Covington's, you know, awesome off the ball, but he's average on ball. Nerkich isn't the same level on defense anymore after his injury. And I said like, they're more like a playing tournament team than like a top four seed in the West. You think he saw that. You think he saw that. I mean, probably. I don't know. It's so silly. I was honestly just left wondering, why is he responding to this tweet about Simmons?

Like I thought with Simmons, it was a timely observation because just weeks ago or months ago, Brian Windhorst, who's very plugged in with Clutch Sports reported that Simmons might actually switch shooting hands. So I've been, you know, quietly trying to like, finally, is he switching shooting hands? It's been no, no, no, no, no, no, he's not. And then we actually saw the video that he wasn't. And, you know, it's just kind of disappointing when, you know, his fourth. former shooting coach, John Townsend and his former teammate, one of the greatest shooters ever, JJ Redick, both believe and have suggested to him that he should switch shooting hands.

I'm tired of talking about it after almost six years now, to be honestly. Maybe that's what it was. He's tired of me talking about me talking about it. But there's nobody more tired of talking about Simmons and his shooting hands than I am after almost six years. There was a lot of people. And I saw, you know, when people responded to that, they were like, they took it as, oh, maybe they're going to end up being teammates.

Oh, yeah, that was funny. Yeah, defending a future teammate. I saw those too. Yeah, because why would Yusuf Nerkich be riding for Ben Simmons? It's just a weird thing. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Oh, then there's also comments saying like there's a video I saw someone posted a couple

years ago and Ben Simmons said, you're too ass of a player to be talking this much trash. Like they're just talking back and forth on the court. Not a big deal. But people are just saying, why are you defending him? Like Blazers fans. It was just, I don't know, man. I don't have bothered responding. It's a nonsensical comment.

and not worth responding to on Twitter. Silly. Ducef Nurkich. Anyway, these Raptor fans, I triggered them, and I didn't even mean to. Like, I'm not saying Scotty Barnes isn't a good pick. I don't know. All I'm saying is, I know the way it's up,

but it was my level of confidence in that kid and that we're going to look back. I promise there's a zero percent chance. I really believe that, that there's going to be four guys better than Suggs in this deal. And if there is four guys, better, it means this was a freaking historic draft class because he could be a really, really good player. And by the way, you could end up wrong, Chris. Like, there's a chance you're

wrong because this draft. You could because this draft looks really freaking good. It does. It looks really good. And it's not just an overreaction. It looked good before the drafts. It looks maybe even better now after the draft. And we'll see how Summer League and preseason and their rookie seasons play out. But I'm highly impressed with what we've seen. How fun was Davian Mitchell? Oh, my, that was, I mean, oh, how did it? How long am I, I, I've been recording for 33 minutes and 25 seconds. And this is our first mention of Davian Mitchell. I've been waiting for us to bring him up.

Dude, the way he played defense against book night. Oh, my God. So fun to watch. When we talk about, so let's go back to everybody that's always like the, oh, here we go with the overreactions to Summer League. Bro, if you can't watch that and understand how that is translatable, I can't help you. That is a million percent translatable.

What he was doing, staying with this guy. This guy tried every move. Anybody could go find the clip of James Boutnight trying to shake Davion Mitchell. And you understand why in college they called Davy on Mitchell off night. I mean, it is. It's a great nickname off night. It's an amazing nickname. An amazing nickname.

But when I have, you know, when I've talked about like what is translatable to the next level, go find the clip. And you tell me if that's translatable or not because this guy, I mean, he was a pit bull in college as we knew. And he's been a winner. One state title, you know, went and obviously won that national title, you know, helping Baylor. win that national title. It was an outstanding player and the most highly drafted player

off of that team. And just first view of him in the uniform and watching him and the way he plays and defends and that yes, it's a level up from what we saw at Baylor,

but I'll tell you, there ain't nothing changed with that dude. He is what he was advertised to be on the defense event. Yeah, I was talking to an executive a couple days

after the draft from a team who had no chance to draft Avion Mitchell. And, you know, they brought up to me, like, they have never seen a player enter the NBA better at fighting over screens. He was talking specifically about his skill to fight over screens and to, like, continue staying attached to the ball handler. He's like, I've never seen anyone better in my, you know, seven, eight years, however long he said he's been in the league. And like in game one of the summer league, we saw that, whether it was fighting over

pick and roll screens, whether it was in isolation, whether it's, you know, when the opponent was bringing the ball up the court, this dude is just a monster on ball defender. And even though he's only six foot, even though there's going to be matchups where maybe he's a bit undersized against some bigger, larger guards, Booknight's 6'5. And he made his life hell.

It was a nightmare. Nightmare. Nightmare. And I'll tell you what, dude. Like sometimes we look so much at measurables instead of just production. Like, he plays bigger than his body. He's a six foot. on paper, but he doesn't play like it in reality.

So how much do you weigh those two? You have to weigh the measurables. You have to weigh those things. The athleticism, how much a player can jump, how long their wingspan is. But I don't know how much it matters for Davy on Mitchell. I really don't. It has gotten people in trouble.

And, you know, I was reading something a couple of weeks ago, and this is not regarding the NBA. This is actually regarding the NFL. And though the article didn't necessarily, make this hypothesis. I kind of drew from it regarding this measurable thing. For whatever reason,

if people can figure out whatever reason they want to come up with, but I'm on the track of thinking that you are, and I think this relates to Mitchell. Second round wide receivers, and I believe even third round, but the second round for sure, have wildly outperformed their first round wide receiver peers in the NFL draft.

So why would that be? And I talked to somebody involved in the NFL, smart guy who his belief was that in so many cases, there are these guys that are great receivers, they are mega-productive, but they don't test as great, whether it's the 40-yard dash, whether it's benching 225, whether it's the vertical leap, whether it's the shuttle drill, all this kind of stuff.

And there's so many guys that test off the chart and that maybe that's the position where it actually hurts the most because the measurables do matter in such a massive way in that case. And yet, over the past several years, second round wide receivers have performed so much better than the first round wide receivers as a group. And the hypothesis was that it's the measurables.

That's why guys have gotten drafted higher than their peers in many cases at that particular position. Now, going back to what you're saying, like, Davy Mitchell is one of those, what did we need to see? You know, like we watched him play basketball, right? And what, when you tell me how short his arms are. when you tell me what he measures with and without his shoes on and like all of these things that do scare you a little bit.

It dements the fact that I watched him play, you know? We had a conversation about this leading into the draft where I told you that the, the sentiment at that time was he was going to fall down draft boards a little bit. And I ended up going ninth, to be fair, to the Kings. He was a top 10 pick. It's not like he slipped to 20. He was a top 10 pick. And I told you at that time, I was like, you know.

No, this is my kind of guy. This guy is a dog. But, I mean, it is. No fail player. It's like, what happened? What, what happened here? Like, we went and, I went and put him on a scale and I put him, you know, on a, you know, we tested his height and we tested his leap and we checked out how long his arms were. And we decided that what we saw basketball wise, I guess wasn't what we saw basketball wise or that what he did basketball wise is not.

going to be able to happen again because now his arms are, I didn't know how long his arms were when I was watching him play for Baylor. You know what's the matter? And pretty clearly, I don't think, I don't think it's matter. I know, but it's not, but it's not more important to Kenny play. Yeah. I mean, I think ultimately the number one, the most important skill. And I thought Danny Chow, the article he wrote about Kate Cunningham, a couple of weeks back

before the draft was, I'm paraphrasing, but like there's a line about like looking beyond athletic traits and thinking about what happening, what's happening between the years. And I really do believe that is the key. It is the key to success, period, you know, not just not just in basketball, but your approach, your mindset, how you deal with adversity, you know, how, like we talked about earlier with younger players, are you willing to learn new things and try new stuff, um, to experiment and try to get better? it all happens in your head. And I think with some of these players, that's hard to read.

It is so hard to measure that because even if you feel like you're drafting a 19, 20-year-old kid who has that, maybe things change. Environment's change. Circumstances change. Something happens in your life. You never know how somebody responds or evolves or matures. But for the most part, you know, psychological studies say people tend to stay relatively the same as they get older, you know, in comparison to their group, you know, to their similar age group.

Like if you are leaning towards like outgoing, you know, at 20 years old, typically you'll be more outgoing against the same group of 20 year olds when they're all 30. Does that make sense? So like I think with players, it's still hard to read though because there's always, you know, variables that are hard to consider. But that's what makes this class really exciting. I think Cunningham has those qualities. We'll see how we develop. with skill development. Like he still needs to improve as a ball handler, quickness and all that.

But like he's like he's really freaking good off the balance. And like creating those shots is going to happen over time. And it's true for Green, Mowbly, Barnes, Suggs, like Mitchell, so many of the guys that we've been talking about

these past couple months have positive qualities there, which is why one of the reasons why this draft class could go down is one of the great ones. I text you during the game, uh, that Cunningham game. And I said, like,

this guy is a leader now. Dude, he is, man. He is up on the bench. He is cheering everybody on. Like, I love that. Yeah, I love that. Intangibles. Yes, he's the number one pick of the draft.

He just met these guys within the last week, literally, within the last week, you know? And he's up on the bench. He's cheering everybody on. Like, that's what being the guy is about. And, like, you know, they're going to look to him. And some guys just aren't built like that. but you can tell with that personality that he has, those guys are going to follow him.

They just are. They're going to follow him. Even though his debut was an inefficient scoring game, and even though the people who are skeptics of him are like, well, you know, he's not an elite athlete enough. You know,

he's got the ball on a string, but he doesn't generate a lot of space. Like, skeptics might say that. You know, every player, every player in this draft needs to improve. Like,

even if you're already a very good ball handler to succeed at the highest level in the NBA, you still get to get better. But like, I thought in that game for the Pistons, he led with his defense, with his intensity and his focus on that end of the floor. And just, you know, at his size, 6-6-6-6-6. He measured that for Summer League, whether he's actually 6-6 or 6-8. I don't know. 6-6, long, athletic, can move and versatile.

But he played with his mind and he played with hustle. He constantly was hustling on the end of the floor, showed his intelligence, showed his ability to defend multiple positions. I just like the leadership. That's how you lead. You know what really stood out to me. You lead on the court and you lead with your voice. And he does both as a young player. You know, I've seen Cunningham.

I've seen Suggs. I've seen Mitchell. I've seen a lot of these guys, obviously, whether it was during the college basketball year, going out of my way to check them out a couple times or the NCAA tournament. The ones that I had not seen before that I'm seeing for the first time are the most fun.

And that was both of the Euros. So that Cunningham game, the first play of the game, Josh Giddy comes. off a screen, drives to the basket and slams it with two hands. And I'm like, wait, hold on now. This is not what was advertised, right? It was

like, great passer, great vision, like all this stuff. I'm like, this dude's just going to come off a screen drive and slam it down with two hands. I was like, okay. All right, Josh Giddy. And then your boy Sengoon with his pretty good,

Kevin McGale footwork on Evan Moby. I'm like, Yo! I mean, the up and under's, a little pump fakes. Are you referring to the play where I think Mobley blocked him initially? And then Schengen got the ball back, put on like this nasty move to get a layup opportunity. Like those two, those two, that game was fun to watch because Mobley was outstanding on defense, man.

Like, like, wow, wow. At his level of just seasoning as a young player into the league. And in Schengen, like the footwork is, uh, yeah, that dude, He had some block shots. He looked better on defense, I thought, than he did when we last saw him overseas. Just one game. Just Summer League. Yeah, right.

But he looked good. There's no question. That footwork is real because guys don't do that McHale stuff. You know what I mean? That's something. I was like 80s. Elijah. I mean, it really was.

Oh, you're pulling out some big names here. No, I'm talking about the way. Strictly footwork. Yes. I'm talking about the move. It's just a throwback. You just don't see it. Now, I don't know if it's going to work.

the NBA. But I know it worked that one time and it was awesome, you know, because you just not used to see it. That's not how guys score anymore. Nobody posts up and then does a post move with awesome footwork and scores. Like, when is the last time you even saw that? Do you even remember one post up that wasn't just like a baby jump hook in the NBA finals? Oh, yeah. I mean, you didn't even see it. A lot of jump hooks, yeah. Or maybe like a turnaround jumper, like a post up that It was like, you know, like a little six-foot turnaround jumper. You didn't see one time in the whole NBA fight. And that included Yonis and Aiton.

Not one time did you see somebody get the ball in the post, pump fake up under, lay it. Like, it's not, it's something from 20 years ago. So I respect it. Yeah, skill development happens on the perimeter now, more so than on the interior, which is why it's so cool to have that variety with certain guys around the league. And just to bring it back to giddy, had a nice start to that. that game played what six seven minutes or so before spurning his ankle hopefully he's able to to get back and play some more summer league games like you because we like to see these guys

like to see how they've improved since the end of their respective seasons okay and then i would encourage anybody you can go nba dot com does a very good job with this they do a very good job of chronicling the summer league it's their deal it's their deal but um if you go down to on nba It'll say Monday's top plays. Okay? And you can see everything that took place in these games. And I always watch those in the morning and see some of the ones that I missed. And the top play is this little dude.

I mean, he can't be six foot tall. And it is an absolute tomahawk. Like I'm talking like a dunk kind of. contest dunk. And I was like, what? Isaiah Miller. All right? So these are the guys. This is what Summer League is about to be. Isaiah Miller. So I go look up Isaiah Miller, right? He went to UNC Greensboro and he went undrafted this year. All right? He's playing for the wolves, I believe, is the team he's playing for right now, right? How about this, Kevin? Two times Southern Conference player of the year.

three-time Southern Conference defensive player of the year, three-time first team all Socon, and So-Conn tournament's most outstanding player in 2021. He just got done playing for UNC Greensboro, where he again repeated as the unanimous Southern Conference Player of the Year and Conference Defensive Player of the Year. played 30 minutes a game, shot 46% from the field, not much of a three-point shooter, average 19.7 rebounds and four assists the game.

And he looks to be about 5'10. And anybody can go look at this Tom Ogdenk. But these are the stories I love, right? I don't know what's going to become of Isaiah Miller, right? But I will tell you, that is a kid that had all manner of collegiate accolades of which I was unfamiliar and then you see him and then you go look him up after he's got the number one play of Monday

and anybody could go watch this dunk I mean it's freaky it is freaky yeah he looked like he was flying it looked like he just wasn't gonna stop he's like 5-10 and he cocks that thing back I'm like that would win a dunk contest for somebody doing that at his side

eyes. Now, I don't know this guy, but I'll be damned, man. He won. He won everything in his conference. You know? In that same game, I believe, was McKinley Wright, who was a senior out of Colorado. Yeah. Another, another short guy, like, 511 under, under six foot. And he had five steals in the game, which was on brand. Like, that's who he was in Colorado, just a total nuisance, blowing up plays, hustling he had a steal. I think it was maybe on Primo from behind when he was bringing the ball up the floor, just poked the ball away from him. Like he's just a troll

on the defensive end of the floor. And I just, I love watching those guys who go on drafted and have big performances. It's cool. I had him on my list two years ago on our show because somebody had given me a heads up on him and he broke like,

he broke all a Chaunty Billups records and like he had all these records there and it was there was two from Colorado. Oh, Billups and then Dinwiddie. So like if you break a bunch of records there, like you've done something, you know?

Like they've had some outstanding point guard in their day at Colorado. And this kid had broken a bunch of those records. Did Isaiah Miller do anything in that game? I didn't even go look at the box. Isaiah Miller had nine points on four of eight from the field. Nine points on four of eight.

All right. It's fun to see those guys, though, right? Like, that's a guy that probably he won conference player of the year twice. He won defensive player of the year three times. He did everything he could collegiantly, and he didn't get drafted. And he is probably, I would imagine, I don't know this kid. I bet he's at that summer league, and he's like, all right, you didn't pay me any mind for what I just did in college. You will pay me mine now.

And I'll tell you, when the kid got the opportunity to crack one, Holy crap. Yeah, that was wild. Unbelievable. Isaiah Miller, if he never does anything else, that was awesome. Absolutely awesome. The other thing that's been awesome is, last thing before we get out of here, the second year guys, you know, you always want your second year guys to look like the best players

on the floor. Desmond Bain was out of control awesome. Like, I mean, just the shooting. And he played point guard. He was just dribbling up and just shooting in people's faces. He was stepping back. He just, he buried them. But on the other side of the ledger was quickly.

How quickly looks great. Holy moly. I mean, look, it'll be interesting to see how it all fits with Kemba now, right? I was a big, quickly fan as a rookie. No question about it. And he has got some real stuff to him. He put poor Chris Duarte on skates yesterday in that game. And what do you end up with 32?

I think. Yeah, he ended up with 32 in the game. His teammate Obie Toppin looked pretty good too. We saw Obie go from like a lost, you know, he looked lost early in his rookie season to looking competent by the end of the year in a limited defined role to getting more opportunities on the ball in Summer League and looking really good doing it. And you're just hopeful that your second year guys that are there, that they look much better than every. everybody else. Yeah. That's what you want.

It's always scary when your second year guys go. Like you and I were there a couple of years ago, and I remember it was only one game, and he twisted his ankle in it. But the Lakers sent Brandon Ingram, like his second year. We were all like, wow, Brandon Ingram's here. He'll play one game. I mean, he murdered everybody. And it was like, okay, he's just so much better.

That's what you want to see. Like similarly, playing for the Sixers, Maxie showed what he could. be, even though it's just one game, he showed he can be if he's able to develop into a very good three-point shooter. 30% as a rookie, always has hovered around 30% high school and college. If he can

become like high 30%, that dude's gonna be a really great player for many, many years to come. He showed, it's like a flash. It's a moment, it's a glimmer of what could someday be if he's able to do that with any consistency. Well, in fairness, a lot of these got, number one, they did not play summer league

last year. You know, no, no, them. They all, all these second year guys, this is their first run through there. But they probably, as a collective, got a lot more real NBA minutes than many of their predecessors.

Because you think about, I mean, look, Bain and then Xavier Tillman for Memphis, played in the biggest games of the year and made big plays in the biggest games of the year. Both got playoff minutes. Both were,

big in that Golden State play-in game. The same goes with Tyrese Maxie was getting playoff minutes. Some would argue not enough. Same with quickly, you know? I mean, he played on a, he got minutes on a good team this year, you know, in the NBA. And so you have a lot of those guys that got real actual NBA minutes against competition and showed their worth. And now they go to this summer league.

and they're just clearly the best guys, even if you didn't know. Even Malachi Flynn. The Raptors had an outstanding first performance for them, you know, super efficient, did what he wanted on the floor, looked like a guy who's played a whole year in the NBA and is coming back to the summer league, you know, and it looks like he's playing against junior varsity. Yes. Like that's what you want to see from your second year players.

Teo Maladon looked really good, you know, as well for Detroit. Not for OKC, sorry. I was mixing him up with my other French point guard. Killingen Hayes. The only French point guard you didn't love. Teo Maladon. Unbelievable. How is he the awesome one?

Unbelievable. You picked the wrong one. I'll tell you what about Killian. He still has awesome. He still hesitates too much on offense as a score. Still needs to improve his scoring efficiency. But I'll tell you what, Chris. Him and Kay Cunningham on defense could be a terrible.

like those guys like they can defend Killingian Hayes can defend and I know Frank Nillikina can also defend so we'll see how his offense developed over the course of time but the defense is going to be something that always gives him opportunities

in the NBA hopefully hopefully his offense can catch up you know oh and I thought the other day when I was while I was flipping around you see I forgot all about this guy who started at Joe he's always a highlight guy at Georgetown and then, of course, at Texas Tech, MacLung.

I forgot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot. I forgot he left. I forgot he left college. Bro, he has got to side with the Lakers. They need their Caruso replacement. They got him in Austin Reeves.

They can compete to be the new Caruso. Yeah. Mac McClung. Matt McClung can be the new one, right? They had good games, man. Yeah. Both of them had big time plays down the stretch. Reeves had the game

winner on the putback. I mean Lakers fans got a lot of fun players of root for, don't they? Yeah, and the other thing is when you're flipping around and you're watching these games, like some of the guys that are in these games, it's just, um, Kenneth Ferreed, where has Kenneth Fareed been?

Like, that was just bizarre. He's there, Michael Beasley. Like, that's not surprising. Michael Beasley just shows up in the weirdest spots. But Kenneth Farid, like, what have? He played in the Olympics for Team USA. Like, it was like the league passed him by within like two seconds.

And he was just gone. Hoops hype has a list of the oldest players in Summer League. You got Beasley 32, Fried 31. Brandon Knight's there. I was like, no, I was, the Grizzlies played Brooklyn. And I'm like, why are they playing against like a 10-year NBA vet? This is ridiculous. what what is this i can't believe joe young is already 29 years old oh wow wow joe young's

already 29 i'm from i'm feeling old yeah that's wild that is he's a really good college player who was who is so what uh the one i had uh the one i just asked you about for reed did you look him up, find out where he's, where has he been? Did he go overseas? Like, when is the last time? He showed up and I'm like, okay, this is wild. What happened? He was on Team USA.

Like, some of the times there's guys that, like, leave the NBA. And then they just leave and like, it's like, he played in China in 1920. 1920. Damn. 2019, 20. And as far as I can tell, he didn't play anywhere in 2020, 21.

Yes, 1920, he did play in China. And yeah, that's the last second, see that he played professionally. It's so wild because, you know,

he played, he played for Team USA in 2014. on that Olympic team, he was on the Olympic team. Think about that. And he's only 31. Yeah, still young. I'm 31, so I can say he's young. That's crazy.

I mean, he was back, I guess he was drafted in 2011. So 10 years ago. He's drafted in 2011, 10 years ago, which also, interestingly enough included the jimmer. who's back. Jimmer for that. He's playing for Denver. The Jimmer is. And so I got a couple of those guys from there.

All right. Last thing, because we got some breaking news before we leave, Kevin. The Celtics have offered Dennis Schroeder a one-year deal. At the taxpayer 5.9 mid-level per league sources, this is according to Jordan Schultz. The current hold up for Shrewd, is two-fold. He wants the full mid-level exception, which is 9.5 million. He also seeks a second

year player option. Boston doesn't want to be hard-capped. Oh, my God. Dennis. I mean, I feel bad. It sucks. Bro, there's no way your best offer is going to be $5.9 million, right? Turned down $84 million.

Oh. It sucks, man. I feel bad. Oh, boy. Got some bad advice to do that, you know? I mean, but also like it's the type of thing where he thought he was going to win the title you know what I mean also don't think it was unreasonable for him to expect like around 80 on the open market but then the market's not there for you because the year didn't go necessarily as planned you know it's just it's it's

disappointing but you know for the Celtics if they're able to get him for that or if somebody's able to get him for that that's a great one year trial for that team and for him maybe to restore some value entering next off season but dangerous It's a dangerous game, right? To turn down money. Sometimes it could be a real dangerous game to turn down money. You know, you would ask me, I guess it was our last show about the Randall thing. And he said, would you sign that extension right now, 116?

And I said, look, I don't know if you're making an all-MBA team ever again. It's just hard to be one of the top 15 players. You had this unbelievable season. And if somebody's got a piece of paper in front of you for $116 million, it will never be me telling you not sign it. You know what I mean? That's $116 million that you're getting come hell or high water. Man, I know there's some guys that have gambled on themselves and done better off, but it seems like there's an awful lot of stories this way, too. It happened, you remember the famous one with Nerlands Noel? You know, years ago now this shrewder, this is a real cautionary tale.

Yeah. No doubt about that. $5.9 million and you turn down 80? Oh, oh, no. I mean, fortunately, you know, when you have, you know, tens of millions and earnings already, hopefully you're happy and satisfied and like your life is great and beautiful and wonderful. He's got a family and everything, but still, you're turning down $84 million. Man, if I said a shooter, I'd sign with clutch.

They'll take care of you there at the Lakers then. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens there. By the way, just to add on one last note about Schroeder, Jake Fisher from Bleacher Report reported the Celtics are exploring trade possibilities involving Chris Dunn before, quote, concluding talks with Schroeder. So we'll see what happens there. Wow.

Chris Dunn was on all the mock drafts for the Celtics the year of Jalen Brown. Ahead of Jalen Brown. Remember that? Ahead of Jailen Brown. I know Celtics fans don't like to hear it, but the Jalen Brown pick was booed. I was in the arena that night when it happened. A lot of people wanted Chris Dunn, but more so than Chris Dunn,

what they were actually booing was the fact that the Jimmy Butler deal wasn't going to happen. Like it wasn't a boo against the Jalen Brown pick. It was a boo because of the Jalen Brown pick meant they weren't getting Jimmy Butler. And so it was just a disappointment about that. But ultimately, like that doesn't that show you with the draft? Sometimes you never know. You never know how players are going to pan out. And even today, Jalen Brown is a 25.

point where game score. Even today, we don't know if he's done getting better. That's the fear in like the conversation about trading Jalen Brown for Bradley Beale. I mean, who knows if Jalen Brown's done getting better? He might come back this season as a 28 point game per game guy. He could get even better. Well, and it's really crazy because they get talked about on two massively different levels and yet one average 30 and one average 25. It's five points a game. Part of that can be opportunity any in situation. Yeah. Well, and the other thing is one of them is a long,

athletic, unbelievable defender, great team player, you know, the whole thing with Jaylen. And so, I don't know, like he, I think Jalen Brown's awesome.

I do. Yeah. They're both awesome. I'll tell you what, you can't go wrong, having either of those guys on your squad. Yeah, he's just not,

he's not best friends of Jason Tatum. Yeah. That's the big difference. Right? I mean, there is a thing there. And they're good friends, but not like friends for 10 years

since they were little kids. Right. Yeah. I can't wait to watch the rest of this summer league. It's going to be fun. And then we'll check in with Mir and Fader on Friday. Go buy her book, the Janus book that came out today, her biography about Janice Otta Tocompo. It's an inspiring read.

It's inspiring. It's inspiring. Yeah. It's inspiring. Thank you to our executive producer, Sasha Eschel. As always, Kevin, I will talk to you on Friday. I'm looking forward to it, Chris.