The Mismatch - Giannis Drops 50 Points and the Bucks are NBA Champions

Episode Date: July 21, 2021

Verno and KOC start by breaking down Giannis' historic Game 6 (0:51) and everything else that helped push the Bucks past the Suns in the Finals (9:40). They also discuss what went wrong for the Suns (40:00) and which teams are built to slow down Giannis (46:30). Finally, they prepare for the offseason by talking a little bit of Damian Lillard (57:30), Ben Simmons (1:01:50), and the NBA Draft (1:07:30). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor Producer: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Flying Coach is back for a second season. Peter Schrager and Rams head coach Sean McVeigh are joined by guests from around the sports and entertainment world. They're discussing the latest NFL news, telling stories from their careers, and breaking down games from their unique perspectives. Check out Flying Coach Season 2 on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. Join as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K., Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'O. Kevin O'O. Concer. Kevin O'Clymer. Kevin O'O. Kavanaugh. It's a Wednesday morning, 12.3 a.m. here for our podcast tonight.

And we have just witnessed one of the greatest finals performances in the history of the NBA. Next year they are going to be celebrating their 75th year as a league. And very few times over the course of the history of the NBA, have we seen anyone do what Janus Antecoompo just did as the Bucks are now the NBA champions, and he ends the game with 50 points in the game. The numbers are absolutely astonishing. He's the second player in NBA history with three 40.10 rebound games in the finals. Shaq in 2000 has done it. no one has ever had 40 or more points, 10 or more rebounds, and five or more blocks in a finals game.

In any playoff game, it's only been done, the last time it was done with Shaq in 2001, and the last time it was done in any game whatsoever, a regular season game, was Anthony Davis in 2018. So the rarity of what he just pulled off is unbelievable. He was the first player with multiple 30-point halves in the finals in the last 40 years. He's the last guy, you know, nobody scored 20-point quarters in the finals since Michael Jordan in 1993. He did it twice. All of these things are crazy. think it is it is one of those rare times where outside of sun's enthusiasts and even i think

sons enthusiasts you know don't feel terrible about who they lost too but i do feel like the NBA as a collective is happy for this guy and that team yeah yeah absolutely i mean with yanna assigned to the Coupo here, Chris. I don't feel like the numbers even capture the greatness that we witnessed tonight. And a close-out game, I mean, the 50 bomb, 50 points is incredible, 17 of 19 from the free throw line. I'm sure we'll talk about those heroics later. 14 rebounds, two assists, five blocks, magnificent.

He did everything for the team. He defended pick and rolls as the big. He defended Chris Paul man-to-man after switches and did a hell of a job doing it. he on the offensive end of the floor got inside at will with power with finesse finishing off balance even though he only had two assists in the game he made some great passes he was relentless on the boards it was just a truly dominant performance like we call games dominant or players dominant but there was nothing nothing the sons could do against this guy there was nothing you could do to stop yannis or to score against him like he just

was a dominant force. And I mean, we're at the point here, man. Last five years, he's a five-time all-star, four-time all-N-B-A, four-time all-N-B-A, four-time all-defensive, one-time defensive player of the year, two-time MVP, one-time most improved player. Now he's a one-time finals MVP and a one-time NBA champion. He is already an all-time great talent. He is on his way to having an all-time great career, possibly even to become one of the one,

10 greatest players of all-time, Chris. He has a chance to do that. It will be plenty of time in the next five, ten years to have legacy talk. But right now in this moment for him to be here knowing what he came from, I just feel joy, man. I really do. I'm so happy for him and I'm happy for Bucks fans. Look, there will always be legacy talk, but I'm telling you this, Kev. It doesn't matter what happens the rest of his career.

You can never take away. 50 years of not winning a title, title on the line. And you dropping 50 points in a closeout game. Like that can never be, that is legacy. You can't take that away. 50. 50. 50.

50. On only 25 shots, he was 16 to 25, 17 of 19 from the line. I can't do the true shooting percentage math in my head. But that's really efficient. That's an outstanding number, right? Like, it would just, and like the way the son's defended him, DeAndre Aiton, like, give him credit, you know, for having a great playoff by the end of it. Like, Janus wore him out.

Of course. We talked about this throughout the finals. Can Aiton continue to sustain playing 40 minutes every night against Janus? Well, no, because Janus just wears you down with his constant energy, constant intensity. I don't know, man. Like, I'm just amazed at this guy. I'm amazed at Janus that he's turned into this guy. 50 points in a close-out game in the finals.

Woo! Wow! And we talked about after game two. I recall the podcast we did. And one of the things we mentioned was he had only taken like 11 shots in game one. And of course, we couldn't believe he played in game one, given the nature of what we thought his injury was against Atlanta. So we got to, you scroll this back. Everybody was shocked.

He was available. You know, available in the manner that he. he was, right? I know that there were the reports that, like, hey, if there's going to be a game seven against Atlanta, there's talk he could be available. But he wasn't fully available, even at game one. He had a ton of rebounds, but he only took 11 shots. He wasn't that guy.

But in game two, that switch flipped, and he had 42, I think it was. 42, yep. Yeah, in a game they lost. And one of the things we talked about was, for the bucks, one thing you do have to feel good about is, A, you have the best player in this series. B, they don't have the goods to deal with him. There's just nobody on the roster to deal with him. There's only one DeAndre Aitin, and they only have one big.

They play smaller guys at Power Forward, right? Like, it's just the nature of their team. their only backup big is Frank Kaminsky. They don't play the kid that they drafted. Jalen Smith, who's got size, but he's not available for this. He's not trustworthy in this kind of high-leverage situation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? But that was one of the things was, look, he is the best guy. And if he can get Middleton and he can get Drew Holiday, to come along with him. The truth is it was hard to foresee a circumstance where he's not pretty dominant the rest of the way. The truth, it was going to come up to, what about the rest of these guys?

And he didn't get anything from them in that game too. And then as the series went on, he started to get more out of them. And you saw they changed their defense a lot. You know, they stopped letting Brooke Lopez just get picked on. Drew Holiday put on up and down offensive performances, but one of the great defensive finals

for a perimeter player that you could ever imagine. He was just chaotic. And I don't know if you saw Zach Lowe's article this morning, but they had a number in there. He had a number in there where it was in transition, according to cleaning the glass, per 100 possessions in transition, the bucks were scoring 153 points per 100 possessions.

Just ludicrous. The number one team this year was 133. So they were scoring 20 more points per 100 possessions than the best team in transition. So it was a matter of- Ludicrous level of efficiency. Yeah. Can you get the stops? Can you get out in transition?

And there was that second quarter where it was half court basketball. We run a play, you run a play, and they were a debacle. But then by the second half, they got going again. And they got that game moving. And they were just absolutely devastating. For sure. I mean, I think that like it all connects, getting stops on defense and making life hard on the sons. The sons are a team that they whip the ball around the court.

0.5 offenses, Monty Williams calls it. They want to have quick passes, cutting, lots of movement. The bucks, the way in which they defended the suns, created tough passing lanes constantly for everybody on that team. It was very rare that you saw a clean catch. They're everywhere. And that's due to the way these bucks are with Janus's length, with PJ Tucker, Chris Middleton is big. Big for his position. Brooke Lopez is gigantic.

Drew Holiday, as you said, had one of the best defensive series that I've ever seen. I mean, for him to bother Chris Paul, for him to bother Devin Booker, just to make their life hard, that alone is significant. Never mind actually forcing some stops. And just with the energy, Janus had to, like he had five blocks. How many almost blocks did he have? Oh, my goodness. Where it was like a goaltend or like it hit the glass first or when like maybe it was a foul or just missed it. Like he was everywhere.

That's what I mean. Like I don't feel like the numbers, as amazing as the numbers are, 50. points, 14 rebounds, two assists, five blocks. It doesn't just fully capture. Like, very rarely do do I watch a game, Chris, and, and think to myself, that guy wants it more because everybody wants it, especially in the finals, you know, you're playing hard. Everybody wants it. But with Janus, it just, it still felt like he just wanted it more with the level of energy. And I'm midway through reading Mirren's fader book about Janus. I think I'm halfway through chapter nine or near the end of that.

And like it just, the book's tremendous. You know, it's a tremendous book and we'll have her on at some point to talk about it. But he's always wanted it more, man. Like some of the stories in that book ever since he was a little kid, whether he's like helping his family out, is selling sunglasses on the street, whether he's playing game with games with friends, whatever it might be. Like serious or non-serious. Giannis has always wanted it.

more. And like it just felt like this game six with him tired playing over 40 minutes, three weeks after hyper extending his knee, just the way in which he played tonight. There's one moment in that third quarter. I'm like, he's not going to be denied. He's just not going to be denied tonight. And that's because of just who he is as a person. It's who he's always been. And Yanis has always been somebody who wants it more. Oh, I mean, I put this, I tweeted this out when they came out of, when they came out of halftime, you know, especially after that game, it flipped. on them in that second quarter, he was going at their necks. You could tell immediately. I mean, and this was another one of the 20-point quarters, which you just don't see. Now, keep in mind,

I don't think the son scored 20 points as a team in the first quarter. I don't think that's 16, 16. Okay. Yeah, that's a team. Bucks had 13 in the second quarter. What a weird first half that was. Weird. Weird first half. And not totally. unlike what we had just seen in Phoenix. Yeah. Where Phoenix ran out on them in the first quarter, and then in the second quarter, the bucks had flipped that game. That was a 37-21 in the first quarter,

43-24 in the second quarter, that last game. Crazy. So odd. Yeah. Yes. And you have these runs that these teams make, and you had this individual brilliance by this guy. There is so much to talk about regarding the bucks and how they pulled this.

off. First of all, you know, one of the lessons that we've talked about regarding great teams from a historical perspective is did these guys typically win later in their careers? And I had mentioned I chronicled a couple of weeks ago when we talked about this and we were kind of spying out the teams. One thing we know is your best player is usually in their upper 20s. The other thing we know is that veteran teams generally win the NBA title. And this was a team that had a lot of veterans on it. Yes, Yonis is a tad bit younger than some of his peers or some of the other great players that have won. But PJ Tucker, 10 plus year career, Drew Holiday, 10 plus year career.

Brooke Lopez, 10 plus year career. Chris Middleton, 10 plus year career. I mean, like, this is a veteran team, whereas and had not a ridiculous amount of playoff experience, but certainly a lot more than Sun's guys. There was only one guy on the Suns that had ever been in the NBA finals, and that was Jay Crowder, and that was last year in the bubble, right? They didn't have a bunch of veterans alongside Chris Paul, and certainly not guys that have been in the league 10 plus years.

In fact, some of their best players have only been in the league, seven, Booker around seven and then Aitans in his rookie contract. It was a lot of first time. Yeah. Appearances for the Suns players. Right. Whereas the Bucks, it's a lot of guys who have been through it. Yes.

You have lost, who have been grizzled, who have felt defeat and had to battle back from it. Yes. I mean, it's amazing the Sun's got to this point. But ultimately, like I think you're getting at Chris here, that veteran savvy from the Bucks and from booting holes are in that code. coaching staff, they've also failed many times in the past as well. That all helps out.

Like it all does add up in those moments when you're talking about such a slim margin for error. Well, and we talk about playoff scars. Yeah. They got their scars. Bucks got plenty. Tough losses. And you have, you know, the magic thing will probably never, I can't imagine a

scenario where that can be defeated where he was 20 years old, started at Center in game six of the 80 finals and put up 42, 15, and 7 and won finals MVP as a 20-year-old. Like, that one's going to be tough, right? But you have magic. Tim Duncan won finals MVP when he was 23. Kareem won when he was 24. Larry Bird won his first title when he was 24. But Janus at 26, he wins this first title younger than Curry, LeBron, Isaac.

Thomas, Shaq, Michael Jordan, Kevin Durant, Hakeem Elijahwan, Dirk Novitzky, Kevin Garnett. I mean, the list goes on and on and on and on and on. Guys typically, many of the great players, the majority of the great players, don't get their first title until they're 27 or older. And we talked about, we spitballed many different ideas as to why that could be, but that's just generally the age in which maybe talent and savvy. catch up with each other and you get what you get. And maybe this is a pretty good example of it can happen faster for guys now

because truth be told, we didn't see all stars and we didn't see superstars in rookie contracts. And we are routinely seeing those now, right? We are seeing guys be the best players on teams that are capable of special things, like Trey Young, like Luca Donchich. You know, we've got this whole group of the Zaiy, and the Jomorant's coming up. Donovan Mitchell just, you know, and still very young

in his career by and large. And maybe the trajectory of these guys that it will happen faster. Maybe you won't necessarily always see the best player be 27 or older. I don't know, Chris.

Or maybe. He's an exception, man. He's an exception. He's Janus, he's Yonis Santa de Kumpo. we just went through the accolades like this guy is just on another level. I mean, he is the exception in so many different ways in life as a person with his backstory and as a player from what he was as a rookie.

Like I was, I googled Gianna's rookie tonight just to just pull up some pictures of how lanky and skinny he was, how weak sometimes he could look as a rookie. And for him to be what he is now, like they showed the graphic tonight, 196 pounds as a rookie to 242, whatever he is right now as a finals MVP. I mean, the transformation, yeah, every part of him is just truly amazing. It's truly amazing. And so, Chris, for him to do it at 26, I mean, it's one year less than the 27 number. You know, we've talked about throughout the year.

Not too far off. Not too far off from 27. And he is an outlier in every way, in every way. I also think it is instructive when we think about Janus, how many times, and especially with the draft coming up next week, and how many guys that people give up on early in their careers. We decide what they are. We decide what they are going to be. Okay? Just keep in mind.

Year one, 6.8 points, four rebounds as a rookie. year two, 12.7 points, 6.7 rebounds. Year three, 17 points, 7.7 rebounds. That is the third year in the league for Janice Antecoombo was 17 and 7. Since then, All-Star every year. But you think about, well, the next year was 23 and 8. And then the next year, years 5, 6, 7, and 8, he's never been lower than 27 points per game and he's averaged over 10 plus rebounds again.

And remember his first year winning MVP, 2018, 19 people said, should he win most improved player again? Right. That was a conversation that year. But keep in mind, now think about all the guys right now

that are, we've already made our mind up on by year three. I mean, 17 and 7 is, I mean, it's good. But I mean, it's not, it's not a guy that scores 50. in a friggin finals game like the guy that is in his 30 years so players have gotten so good so fast now

that now anybody that is going to have this maybe even a Janus type trajectory we've written them off in a way not in a way that we don't know what that we know what they're going to be right or that they're a bust already, that that wasn't a great pick already, because we just decide. I mean, we've seen, we see what Trey Young's doing. We see what Luke is doing.

We see what so many of the great young players are doing. Lamello even this past year, John Morant scored 47 in a playoff game this year. I mean, like, and so guys have been so good so fast that what about the guy that has this slow trajectory and it's really year five before he becomes like an all star caliber great player. Again, though, this is what makes him an outlier. It's his mind. It's just who he is. He constantly looks for ways to get better and he works at it relentlessly. And like just, you know, two years ago, he wins his first MVP in 2018, 19. Then he wins another one in 2019, showing more

seasoning as a playmaker in subtle ways, you know, based after facing the wall that he did in recent years. Then this year, he continues to get better every single year. He becomes a smarter player, a better overall player. It might not always show up in the numbers. Sometimes it does. It doesn't always, but you can feel it and you can sense it. When we've watched a guy for years, you can tell when a guy is slowing down and understanding it. Yannis is, the improvement isn't even done yet. Like you can't rule out further improvement yet. There are still clear ways for him to get better with this jump shot and his free throw shooting.

We saw glimpses tonight with that turnaround jumper he had out of the post. You know, the free throw shooting just obscene, Chris, I can't believe. You know, if you're a son's fan and you see, if you were told before the game, just letting you know, Janus is going to go 17 of 19 tonight. You're like, ah, we lost. There's no question you lost. 17 to 19. Oh, it's a difference in the game.

They won because of his free throw shooting. I'm not kidding. I know. If he has a normal, you know, 11 of 19, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what he is. It's much more likely he hits half of them. Yeah. If he goes 10 of 19, 10 of 19, it's going to overtime.

Yes. Or maybe it's not because off of the miss misses off the free throw. You're getting an early offense opportunity. Yep. And maybe it's over. Maybe you're losing by. five. The difference is actually more than just the make because of what could have happened on the other end. It's, I don't know, man. Like this whole series, we've seen glimpses of an even

higher level. How funny is it that we heard, you know, obviously you go back to the, you know, no skill thing. You go to the, he's a robin. He's a robin instead of a batman. All this, all this all this kind of crap. And now, and we talked about it last week on the pod. It's dishonest. We had a discussion about, hey, it's kind of odd. This guys had one of the greatest blocks to really win a finals game we've ever seen. He finished a dunk while getting two-handed pushed on the road against Chris Paul to seal a game.

and these are like all-timer finals moments and yet not a peep or hardly a peep from any of his peers but it all came flooding in tonight did you see it yeah a lot of tweets was really odd it was awesome though it's it's great to see it i don't care if it didn't happen before it happened tonight from not only you know players but like other fans or media everybody. I think everybody realized it. Even if like the first five games of the series and every other year of his career, Chris, you were a skeptic. Even if you were, you could not watch game six tonight and think any of those things you just listed off. Him being a Robin, not a Batman, blah, blah, blah, this and that. You couldn't have watched this game tonight and not seen. He is the real deal. He's a bad man. The hater of all haters. Yonis is a hooper. To try to poke holes in 50.

We have 50 in the friggin finals. And in the way he did it too, though. You know, like just in the way, it was relentless. It was just relentless the way he attacked Aiton, attacked Crowder, attacked double teams. Constant. The energy on the offensive boards. Grabbing the ball, going back up, tipping it out. Just, it's special, man.

I say it all the time. Don't take LeBron for granted. Don't take Yannis for granted. Really? This is special, man. We're watching an all-timer, Chris. One of the greatest of our lifetime. He's on that path.

A couple of things that come from this. All right. See if you're with me on this. Okay. Sun's had a great season. No question about it. The Chris Paul thing, people are going to poke holes in it. They're going to say, you know, he did become the first player, I believe,

ever to be up 2-0 in playoff series and lose four different times. They did not win a game after winning the first two games of this series. But here's what I'm saying. And Booker had the two monster games

in the finals, in those losses. Aiton certainly took a step in these playoffs. Monty Williams did a great job with this team. I think you've got to be thrilled if you're a son's fan. It sucks to not win. after you've been up to O.

But I think Janice's performance tonight was so ridiculous that people are not going to blame the sons for losing in a way

that you would typically blame the sons. They're almost like... They better. They better not, Chris. First take better not tomorrow morning. Look. They

I think they, this is, because this is just not about the suns blowing it, losing. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know how it's always framed. It's always framed as, that bad. That should not happen. It's always framed as, you know, somebody blew it or somebody didn't come through. Or, you know, when it mattered most, this guy didn't show up in a way. Like, he was so undeniably unstoppable.

that it's, it, it's, it's all, look, I am not. So go ahead, save your tweet about, I can't even believe you put Jordan in the same sentence. I'm saying this, when Jordan won, people didn't say, I can't believe they lost to Michael Jordan. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And what I'm saying is this was so patently absurd.

And if you want to say, well, they should have played better defense. They should have done something different on Yonnas. They never had, like, bro, it didn't matter. They didn't have the goods to deal with him. Yeah. End of story. They didn't have the goods to deal with that guy. And I really feel it's such an unbelievable performance that it now gets the suns off the hook a little bit in a way that a team that lost the finals that was up to O,

would not normally be. That's what I think. You know, and I would also add to that, Chris, you can't, you know, say, you know, the sun's blew it, especially because alongside Yannas, we just witnessed the performance of Bobby Portis, who was absolutely sensational.

You know, I love Bobby. For the Rocky Bucks, two of five from three, had a great reaction, made a great reaction after getting called for a fall that the Bucks used on their Twitter I saw tonight to celebrate the win.

16 points played his butt off. Bill for it. Man, he's got it. That's who Bobby Portis is. That's heart. It's all heart. Foxhole guys.

I said I love this signing when they made it. I love it. Every time Bobby does something, people send it to me because they remember me saying this when they signed them because I love Bobby Portis. He's unbelievable. What heart. It's just one of those guys. It's one of those guys that would rather, like,

they'd rather die than lose. Like, you really feel that way. Like, you never have to worry about this guy, giving it everything he's got. Sometimes it's not going to be good enough because he's not the most talented guy. But he ain't skate. He is going to go hard and he is not scared.

Those are the guys you want on your team, man. He's not scared. They really, like, those are the people you want. Like, even with Yonis, just the tie of this to Yonis. like with the character aspect. With the Bucks drafted Yannis, they didn't expect him to be this.

No. They didn't expect that, but what they saw was, you know, a talented raw player who has just the best mindset you could possibly have for attacking your goals.

I actually had, I had Rasillo on my local show last week and he actually on a side part talked about this and he said he talked to John Hammond about the honest thing. And he said, about drafting him. Yeah, about drafting him.

And he said, it was the 15th pick, whatever. Like, you know, I mean, you get to that point. And it's like, it's a 15th pick. Let's take a swing. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. Home run swing.

And I have, how about this? Kep, from his rookie year, I have a, you know, they had like promo items that they gave out at games. I have a Janus growth chart from his rookie year that they have. Hey, and it is, how about this? The growth chart, I'll post this on Twitter tomorrow. Yeah, please. I love to see that.

That's cool. Because I've got it up in my game room. The growth chart is June. Okay, so it's two pictures of Janus. One is from June and one is from December of the same year, whatever year it was, 13 or 14, whatever year it was. Of the same year. And then his height. and it's like three inches different.

So one of the things that people say is, you know what, 6-8 Yonis might not be any good. Like, I mean, he might be energy guy. He might be pretty good, right? He could be like, I mean,

he'd still be really, really good, Chris. Like, he'd still be really good. But not like two-time MVP, finals MVP. He'd still be good.

Like, O.G. N and O.B. I don't know. Long defensive player. Like, maybe he'd be like, Oh, OG-esque?

Maybe? He can't shoot. I know. Or maybe he could if he was 16-8. I don't know. Or maybe Janus is like, who knows? Maybe Janus is the supercharged version of OG and an OB. Maybe Janus is more like Draymond Green.

Maybe Janus is like the 6-8 version of Draymond where he's defending every position, putting all his energy into defense. Imagine Janus. If he just never grew, if he never grew. Yeah. Like imagine Yonis. If he didn't have to score 35 points per game in the finals, then he put all like 100% of his energy into defense

and occasionally bringing the ball up the floor and play making the Draymond roll. Yannis could do that. If he were three inches shorter, Janus could have grown into that guy instead. And we'd be like talking about him as this all-time great defender. You know, I think he could still be really, really good. I really do.

He's got that because it's just who he is. It's the drive. It's all the drive. exactly. It's hard. He'd still be the best version of himself, no matter what. But he ain't scored 50 in the final. Yeah, exactly.

He wouldn't score 50. We know that. We know he's not getting 50, 10, and 5 in a close-out game. And I feel, I feel great for Milwaukee. The 65,000 plus outside in that deer district was just outrageous. Dude. It's outrageous. How cool is that?

How cool is that? That was unbelievable. And that is, that is just, you know, and a small market winning it, and a small market winning it with a guy that stayed,

he didn't need to leave for greener pastures, he wanted to deliver that there. I think the NBA is better for this happening. I really do. And, and I wanted this to happen badly for the bucks and for the sake of guys,

thinking that they don't have to go elsewhere in order to achieve what they want to achieve. And I think that's very difficult for any small market to pull off, right? That, like, you can get it done here. And I saw a lot of tonight, a lot of the, how sport, aren't sports crazy, you know. And I think Rosillo tweeted it, but he was, the only one. I saw like several people say it. If Durant's foot is a, you know, a little bit back, then, you know, Coach Bud is getting fired and Janus is, you know,

obviously everybody's poking holes in him and like, but, but, but you can do that with everything. And of course, our opinions change greatly based upon what happens after or because of some event takes, place, right? Like, I mean, you could, okay, well, what if Adam Vanityary shanks two kicks, then what? Thankfully he didn't. You know, then what Tom Brady's not the, you know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, of course, there's, there's a million things that happen like this. Now, I know that one was ultra significant in that his foot was like on the line. Kevin Durant's foot is on the line.

And maybe it does tell us a great lesson about sweeping judgments we make about play. and coaches and everything else because the boot and holeser thing is very fascinating. I still did not see praise for him. And he's gotten beat to hell. And you know he reminds me of a lot, a lot. He reminds me a lot of Andy Reed. Oh, yeah, because Andy Reid always got bashed for lack of adjustments, blowing leads. always back in Philadelphia

in Kansas City and then it changes. People think he's the best coach going. Right? I mean, outside of Belichick, I mean, there's Andy Reid. People consider him like top five for sure. When you talk about,

if you're listing off the best coaches in the NFL, you're not getting, you are no chance getting to five. And you're probably not getting to three before anybody mentions Andy Reid. But for years, he was that guy. Poked holes, poke holes, poke holes, beat him up, beat him up, beat him up, beat him up.

And then he won. And it all flipped. I don't know if that's going to be what happens with Boudenholzer, but I will tell you this. I did not see a lot of coach Budenhouser and the job he's done. And, you know, there wasn't a lot of Mia Kohlzer. was on him.

Let's do it right now, Chris. Let's do it right now. Let's do it right now, though. It's deserved. I don't think we've ever beaten him to death. I really, honestly. Yeah, I don't know if we've beaten him to death. We've like definitely, I've definitely thrown some blame his way.

I think it's been deserved at times. But ultimately, Chris, what happened in the finals is he pulled all the right strings. He did. He pulled all of the right strings throughout the postseason. He landed on the right rotation, Chris. He landed on the right rotation. He landed on the right defense. getting to a point where they weren't switching

to Brooke Lopez screens, changed the level that he was defending the screen. And then they did switch everything else. They played Morianus at the five. They landed on all the right things that they had to on the defense event. To help solve this tough son's offense, got to give Butt Boothed Holzer his credit.

The other thing, Kevin, is you do have to put your best player in the positions to be great, which he did. And most importantly, while their offense was up and down, their defense was not. And their defense, after game two, in game two, I read this in Zach's article, in game two,

the Sons took 17 corner threes. I don't know if they got another corner three the rest of the series. I'm not kidding. It didn't feel like it. No, they did not score at the rim, and they did not score on corner threes. That's not how they got their points. And so, you know, as he wrote, they got a math problem here. Like the sons were in it because they were shooting out of their minds,

like astronomical numbers on hard shots. Because Booker, Booker, amazing isolation shotmaker. Chris Paul, good shot maker from that mid-range. Like all those, what you're, what all these teams are trying to get are the best shots. So you're trying to get corner threes, and you're trying to get stuff at the rim, and you're trying to whip the ball around and get open threes. They weren't getting any of that. That's not how they scored.

It spoke to how brilliant offensively a couple of these guys really are because they were still scoring. And, I mean, hell, you can't poke holes in their percentage for, you know, game five. They shot 55% from the field, 68% from three, 91% from the free throw line, and they lost. Like, that's impossible. It's impossible to lose when you shoot those kind of numbers. So, like, I don't know what you want them to do on offense.

You know, but the Bucks defense did make it very difficult. It spoke to how great they are at making tough shots. But it is an adjustment that certainly led them the rest of the way and enabled them to win four straight, too. For sure. I mean, they had a, the sons had a change who they are. The Bucks continued to be who they are. And that was adaptable throughout the regular season. And with this Phoenix team, they had a change. And, you know, we did learn some stuff. I mean, Devin Booker had some sensational performances. It was up and down for him. But he had some sensational performances. So in 40 plus in those last two losses, um, and games four and five just remarkable for him. It kept this first go through. First go through. Yep. He's in the finals. You know what I mean? Like he should be a staple in the playoffs for years to come.

I mean, it's sort of similar to what we saw with Jamal Murray and Donovan Mitchell. Different level. Like, this is the finals. But he's been doing it all postseason. I mean, it's just, it's a similar leap in that regard. And, you know, assuming you bring back Chris Paul and, you know, McCall Burgess gets a little bit better, you know, maybe you bring back campaign or maybe, like, another, maybe DeAndre Aitin continues to get better.

This team is going to continue to be. a contender in the Western Conference. But with that said, though, Chris, like it is worth saying, the Lakers are going to be reloading, the Warriors are going to be reloading. Younger teams like Memphis and New Orleans should be getting better.

Dallas, like these teams should be getting better. For the suns here, there's some missing pieces. Sure. Like, they didn't have an answer. I think having another scoring presence at the Ford or Big Spot, maybe,

you do need to accelerate DeAndre Aiton's scoring development here. There were times in this game tonight. He looked timid, that he looked spooked that Janus was going to come out of nowhere and block his shot or alter a shot. I remember on one occasion, he kind of peaked around his back when he could have just went up straight for a dunk or layup and said he went with a fade, like a hook shot. And I just wonder for Phoenix, is that really one of the keys here? Do you need to start funneling some offensive player development to DeAndre Aiton rather than

just focus on defense, just focus on rim running? because they got to get some offense from other places and that way. But then on the defensive end, like, boy, you've got to have some answers behind DeAndre Ait. You can't be relying on him for 40 plus minutes. They got to address that, like, in a major, major way. To be back in this moment. It's one of those that you don't necessarily worry about it burning you in the course of a season, but it did. It burned them that they didn't go do it.

They didn't, and it didn't have to be. somebody they could have gone and done the kem birch thing or they could have gone and you know the spurs signed gorgie jing who was released or you have just these solid player just somebody that can go give you 10 minutes right maybe knock down a couple shots give you some energy make it difficult on the opponent maybe take some fouls whatever it is but it just gives you it gives your starting guy a little bit of a rest because there was a lot of pressure on Aiton a lot of pressure on on Aiden and truthfully told, you know, again, Chris Paul probably get beat up. I don't think it's necessarily all that fair. I don't think Chris Paul had the better team. Okay. I don't. I don't,

I don't think, I don't think the better team lost. And that's because of the differential of Yannis. That's right. The differential. The difference. The difference. The difference. Well, the other thing is, you know, as a series goes on and you start to figure each other out, you're super worried about Paul and you're going to do everything you can to make sure you're getting over every screen and you're making sure that you've got extra attention on him. And then you are trying to do the best job you could possibly do on Booker. There's nobody else you're worried about. I'm sorry. Like I'm talking when it really matters, right?

Like who is the guy you're worried about killing you? And one night, Jay Crowder can have some points and one night, McKell Bridges had 25 in that like game two or whatever. But like, it's two guys. and you're really worried about those two guys and those guys have to create everything for everybody else. There's nobody else you're throwing it too and they're just going and creating for themselves.

Except for campaign in the first quarter. Except for campaign. Like I'll tell you what, I'm kind of surprised after that first stint. He only ends up with 10 minutes. I thought at halftime that we were going to see Monty Williams go with a three-guard lineup.

I thought we might see Booker, Paul, and Payne at one point because you're talking about the lack of that other creator, he's right there. Yep. He's campaign. I don't know. I'm just kind of surprised that we didn't see that.

I really am, Chris. Yeah. I really am surprised by that. I just, and maybe, look, there will be people. It might not work, but.

There'll be people to beat up Monty. There'll be people to beat up Chris and whatever. I just, I think this is about the spectacular taking place on the other side. And if the answers were, easy or if there was something that all of us could sit back and say, well, why don't you just do this? I mean, you don't know. What's your answer? You want to go run a double at Janus at the top of the, when he crosses half court like he's Steph Curry, just get the ball out of

his hands. I mean, that's not going to, he's 611. You know, what are you trapping him? He's, now he throws the ball and then he got open shot. Let's go boxing one. Yeah. Let's go full court oppress every possession. Yeah, I mean, unless they had like an ex-man back in the locker room that they could bring out, I don't know how you're going to put somebody out of him. I remember there was a game like this earlier this year where I was watching Zion in person and he just absolutely demolished the Grizzlies. And I was like, like, what do you want him to do?

Like, go sign Aaron Donald or something. Like, I mean, there's nobody on this. There's nobody on the. roster that has any chance against this guy. There's not. There's nobody. Like you, you, you got to sign like an NFL player. There's nobody that has a chance against this guy. He can do whatever he wants, whatever he wants to. And I really felt that way with the honest against the sons. There's nobody with the chance against him. And especially that whole full head of steam stuff, when he gets going and

he and he just starts laying it in, you know, from the side. And he's got that Euro that he does full speed. I mean, he's crazy talent. Then Chris, who are the players or who are the teams that are built? Like based on what we've seen, who are built to slow him down next season in the playoffs? Philly with Embedde. That's right. Brooklyn, I mean, they almost beat him, you know.

That's right. They could, of course. he's still at a great series of course and he sure did I mean in the Western Conference like are did the Lakers need to think about anything no because they have Anthony Davis that's right you got length

you got somebody you can rely on Warriors with Dremont might be a little bit undersized but feel good with that like if you're you gotta have a stout front court like Portland Dallas like these teams got to be thinking about it I mean you're dead if you don't have a stout front court

you're dead and Aiton did a as great of a job as you could do. It just felt like he kind of got worn out throughout. It's just one dude. It's so hard because he's the only guy. He can't be the only guy. You're going to have two.

Don't you? Like, you really got to. Yes. And the other thing is the other guy battling down there is Crowder. He's the only other. Like, I'm talking the ball comes off the rim. He's fighting Brooke Lopez, Janus, P.J. Tucker's in there, taking out your legs. I mean, like, you're the only dude that's down.

down there. And you are responsible for rim protecting and you're responsible for everything else that's going to happen, you know, when the ball comes off the road. And then of course, they got smoked offensive rebounding. Just pounded. And that's why, because there's just one of him. And then you got Jay Crowder, who's six, seven. You know, that's not, and he's not a crazy athlete. He does it through heart. That's how he gets, Jay Crowder's career is built upon playing with the crazy amount of heart and effort, not insane athleticism. And there's just some kind of athletic deficiency that you have.

And you, I mean, geez. Yeah, you need a real front court. For sure. With some depth. Not one dude who's in his third year in the league. Like that. It's a, you're dead. You know?

Yeah. Unless you have the firepower, you know, like a Brooklyn. You know, then you can maybe do that differently. But even then you still need some toughness inside. You know, like that team has tough players and some size, even though it's leaner, right? It's not buff, but you like get that size. So I'll tell you this, but you know, but Blake played him tough. I'm serious.

Oh, Blake Griffin did great. Blake Griffin was a great series. Better defending Janus than anybody on the Suns. Yeah, Blake Griffin was really terrific. He was. Yeah. And he was fighting. It was actually remarkable, like, how good he was against Janice.

I didn't expect that level of defense from him, man. But Blake's strong. Yeah, yeah. Is that, and smart? Like, he's a smart. He's almost, like, Yonis is almost the perfect player for him to defend in the sense that, like, quicker, speedier guys, not going to work. Like, even bigger and bead types, not going to work. But, like, Janus is right at the sweet spot for Blake Griffin, like, in his current skill set and athletic limits.

But he can still move, man. He could stay. He was, you know, that's the issue. Can you, you give him the runway, the four or five feet, right? But can you be quick enough to stay with that? For that move and the power. The power and finesse, the combination. Right.

Where he's just not getting straight at the rim on you. Right. And there were times in the latter parts of the series where Aiton, Yannis was soaring by him and getting into that scoop layup. He figured out a move that worked against Aitin's style of defense. With Blake Griffin, like, it felt like it was tougher. It was harder to score against. And that was the thing with the, I thought the Bucks did a good job.

They got Janus the ball in open space. In places where you're not getting doubled. It's not like they posted him up and threw it down to the post. And now all of a sudden I can have somebody dig on him and he's got to kick it out for a three-pointer or whatever. Like, they got him faced up out in space. to where he was going to be playing against a defender. That makes it very, very difficult for you to be able to go run a second guy at him, you know. And obviously, look, he did a good job passing the ball.

He's averaged over six assists. Oh, yeah. Terrific. And that's really where he's improved quite a lot in the last two, three years on offenses. He's just become a smarter passer, better vision. He anticipates and knows what defenses are going to do and knows what passing lanes are going to be wide open for him. and he delivers the ball. You know, what more could you want?

Big shout out to my best friend, John Horst. That's your guy. General manager of the Milwaukee Bucks, Milwaukee Algonquin for the good land. John Horst, who went out, traded every draft pick known to man. Number one, re-signed Janus. Number two, made the trade and got them Drew Holiday also was able to add PJ Tucker, you know, during the season. And people said it's going to be a different Bucks team.

If they had Holiday, they add Tucker. Holiday couldn't hit the broadside of a barn tonight. But defensively, again, outstanding. And the roster that he was able to build around Janus was enough. My apologies to Chris Middleton, it was enough. You know, as the collective, it was enough. now Yonis had 50 points in the game. But Middleton had it, you know, he had some big games in the finals.

He was, you know, both those guys were up and down, but it was enough. And he hit a big one at the end, too. Yes. And for those of you that are not longtime listeners of the mismatch, the reason we call him my best friend John Horst is because years ago, I was in Charlotte for the, the NBA All-Star game. It was a couple of years ago. And one of my dear friends, Sonny Vicaro, the godfather of grassroots basketball, was there with a couple of buddies.

And I went and met them down in the lobby of our hotel. And we were all sitting around drinking coffee talking or whatever. And there were some guys that were like owners of some teams, like all these guys like kiss the ring of Sonny Vaccaro. Like, and it's guys that you have no idea how many guys that are now in powerful positions in the NBA, like started with him or worked at his camps or whatever it may be. And then he worked for all those different shoe companies, etc. But anyway, all these guys are talking. You can tell some of the guys are like older, rich guys and whatever.

There's another younger guy that was there with me. And so we're off on the side and we're talking, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes, something like that. you know, we're just talking about basketball. We're talking about our opinions about stuff and whatever else. And I was like, so what do, John? And he's like, I'm the general manager of the Bucks. And I was like, what? And it was at that moment where it just, of course, I'm a media member.

It strikes me. I have no idea who the general manager of the Bucks is. So I go up to my room. I'm like Googling it and I'm like, what the hell? And it's kind of a crazy, I, I deserved this because I deserve to pass on this because it was his first year of the job. And that was like a real screwed up deal. They had all these ownership fights or whatever and they couldn't ever agree on anybody.

And John was there and they gave John the job, right? Like they ended up, I guess one part of the ownership group wanted one guy, the other part of the ownership group wanted another guy. It was a mess. Yeah, a total mess. you can go back and look up the story. And John was just kind of like last man standing and was around. And young wonder,

kind of got the job. And of course, I'm sitting there just talking to him, like, you know, giving him my opinions about guys and players or whatever. Just talking basketball, right?

Like just people would. And the guy tells me he's the general answer to the bucks. And I was like, oh my God. Did he take any of your advice, Chris? I'm sure. I'm sure.

I wish you. Are you getting a ring? I hope so. But he is a super nice guy. Look, that's all you need to know is that I was talking to him for 20 minutes and I never even knew who he was when he did nothing. And so that's why to this day, we still call him my best friend John Horst. You told him that night, I'm sure. You know who you're going to get Bobby Portis.

You got to get Bobby Portis. That's a guy that can take you over to the home. Exactly. He's done a great job, though. Look. What do you want? You take over that gig. You got to keep, you got to keep Janice in the fold.

And you've got to build around him. Give him enough. You know, because that's why superstars want to go elsewhere. In fact, as we get done congratulating the bucks and talking about this championship, speaking of, you wrote an article about this. This is what has not taken place in Portland. another small market where a guy has been intensely loyal and I believe wants to be there and deliver a championship to Portland

and he very well may end up staying and we see Damian Lillard in a Portland uniform but much like I was just saying like organizations owe it to their players can you give them enough to be able to win at the highest level and I do believe the bucks deserve congratulations on that level, right? You have the spectacular on your team. You know, it's what, it's what New Orleans couldn't do when they had Anthony Davis.

It's what, you know, Devin Booker was going to get out of there if this whole Chris Paul thing doesn't happen this year, you know. And there is, and Carl E. Towns, he says all the right things, wants to be in Minnesota for life, whatever. Maybe very well, maybe. don't know. But like with all these guys, you know, they do, they just want a chance. Give me, give me the chance to be able to win big. And then it's on me. And so I say that because

we're in an interesting situation right now, we just saw a small market team that did with Yannis. And there in the Pacific Northwest, there's another, and you wrote an article about it this week about Damien Lillard and kind of what they're up against. So if you can, just kind of walk me through your thoughts on this. So the article kind of just went through, which teams want Damien Miller, you know, what can the Blazers do? Should they go for a Ben Simmons? What are there are other options that they could have if it's not Simmons?

Who's the name everybody talks about for them? And, you know, what's next for this team? And, you know, overall, in the article, I reported that, you know, first of all, few team executives expect him to be dealt this offseason. You know, there are some out there who say, you know, maybe things accelerate. eight in three weeks if Portland bombs the offseason, but very few people think he will be in the off season. But with that said, it's also important to know, like, who are the teams that want it most

right now? Because that could be important for during the regular season if things go sour in Portland. And those teams are the heat, the Kings, the Knicks, the Rockets, and the Sixers. Those teams, sources told me, have been the most aggressive in going for Demian Lover. Of course, others could pop up if it becomes very real that Deemian Lerner is going to be traded, because why wouldn't they? It's Damian Lillard. So for Portland here, they're under intense pressure to put together a team that's appealing to Dane, whether it's appealing like on paper in the off season or appealing like as they're playing on the court. And then that's the tough part

here. Beale, like, Beale could be an option for Dane. He might say I want to go get Beal. He might say like, let's go try to get Kauai. Let's recruit him. But are these realistic possibilities for the Blazers? There's just not really a superstar. They, that they can acquire that they have the assets to get. So, like, is it a Ben Simmons? Like, do you think a C.J. McCollum for Ben Simmons type of trade helps put them in a better position, Chris, if they were to do something like that? Like, what could they become with him?

I, my inclination is that that would help both teams. I think so, too. I like, I said to the- natural trade that would help both teams. Yeah. I do. I do. You had a perimeter score.

to the Sixers. That's what they need. Permanor shot creation, playmaking, shooting. And then for the Blazers, you get an elite defensive player to your 29th rank,

stinky defense, right? Alongside the greatest closer there is. Yes. Right now. And it just so happens that they could be a perfect marriage on offense if Ben Simmons

were to completely embrace becoming Damien Lourdes, Draymond Green. We've seen the Stefan Curry Draymond Green offense do spectacular things And the pick and roll with dribble handoffs The level of creativity and chemistry Those guys have is off the charts

So you pair the 6'10 athletic Playmaking Wizard and Ben Simmons with Damien Lillard Who is Curry-esque, different types of styles But he does some courierce things You pair those two guys together It could be brilliant on the offensive end of the floor. You can't just run it back With a new coach on the sideline.

Good luck. If they do that, Dames gone. You know what I'm saying? You know, and now you give Chauncey Billups, who's going to be in his first head coaching job, now, you know, maybe he could get through to Ben. You know what I mean? Former player. Definitely.

You know, they can talk to him about how, like, hey, this is how you can trust me. This is how we're going to use you. And it gives new lease on life to Ben Simmons, right? No doubt about it. it might be extra motivated. Yeah. Extra motivated to be gone

with a new team and a new situation. He might come back with like a complete killer mentality. He could. You don't know. You know, see. We're going to find out. There's a lot worse things than going and being on a team with Damian Lillard. Is he going to be the same guy who, you know, goes hard and then gets voted an all-star and then suddenly like he, his intensity falls off. He's not scoring at the rim with the same intensity.

His defense becomes more inconsistent. Is he going to be that guy during the regular season? Or is he going to be the guy that folds in the playoffs or is he going to be somebody who brings it every night? We talk so much about mindset tonight from the Bobby Portis to the Janus's to the Jay Crotters. All right. I'm going to come back with that. I don't think the book is nearly written on him. I agree. I agree. I don't. I agree. I agree. I do not think we have seen the best of Ben Simmons. And if Ben Simmons one day has a monster triple double in the NBA finals, it will not surprise me. I know that there's people out there

that are driving off the road hearing that. But I believe that. I know what I just watched. I know it was disgusting. I know. I also know this guy has freaky talent. Uh-huh. He does.

Situation changes everything. I just watched a guy that couldn't, that can't shoot score 50. You watched also. I just watched. I just watched. He didn't hit a jump show. How many jumpers were in those?

Like, you don't have to. The whole, like, you've got to be able to shoot. If Yonis doesn't develop a jump shot, okay, he hasn't. How many, what is, how many jumpers did he take tonight? He scored 50. 50. How many jumpers you remember? How many times did he cross somebody up and step back and hit a jumper?

Like twice? Like, did he make a three? He didn't, did he make a three? I don't think he made a three. He did make one three tonight. He made a three? One three, yes. Okay, he scored 50.

So all I'm saying is you give me that kind of size, you give me that kind of brilliance. He does everything great except shoot. Like really? Like everything else he's great at. And so I'm one of those that would bet on the book's not written. and that he will, as time goes on, you know, when he's 27, you know, what's he now? Was he 25? A couple years from now, I could see Ben Simmons being different and better than he is right now.

Yeah, Ben Simmons turns 26 later this month. Oh, no, sorry. He just turned 25. Sorry. Just turned 25 years old. I bet. turn 25. God, Lord willing, we're still doing this pot in two years. It would not surprise me if Ben Simmons is a different player than he is right now. And here's the thing, Chris. He kind of was this season. He was second and defensive player of the year voting. Second. And, you know, a lot of people argue should have been the winner over Gobert. I thought Gobert was a clear winner. I voted it that way. But Ben Simmons was a clear number two for my pick there, right? So in a way, he kind of was different.

what's the next step from what we saw during the entire year until the playoffs really. You know, that's when things really just fell off a cliff. But the whole year, like we did see a different Ben Simmons. Can he build on that in a bigger and better way because of how poorly, like just how horribly things ended? People didn't get him. I do think it's best to be suited. I think he's best suited with another awesome perimeter player that can take the heat off of that.

that it's almost like the way their roster was built, it exposed it much more than it should have been. Because people didn't talk about it nearly as much when Jimmy Butler was on that team. But when you're flanked by Seth Curry and Matisse Thibel and Danny Green, and it becomes a much bigger deal, in my opinion, that it should be.

No, it would not be nearly as big a deal if he's playing with Damien Lillard, just like it wasn't nearly. as big a deal when he was playing with Jimmy Butler, right? When he is supposed to be, you know, and so I do think he is a better fit with a great perimeter player. No doubt about it. And that's why, like, right now people say Darrell Morrie's going to wait for the chance

of Damien Millard. I mean, maybe if those timelines don't line out perfectly, you just have to go for McCollum because McCollum could also be better in a different situation. he, the last three seasons, has scored 25 points per 36 and average six assists per 36 without Damien lowered on the floor while shooting an average 51 true shooting percentage. But that's compared to 21 points and three assists

on 57 true shooting with Dame on the floor. So his efficiency dips a little bit, but he's proven he can score with volume. He's proven he can also pass more frequently if he needs to. So for the Sixers, there's going to have a, got to be appeal and pairing that guy with Joel Lombie who provides a whole new dimension for his offense

in the same way that Damien Lollard would for Ben Simmons, it just feels like a mutually beneficial thing. And yet, though, there is other factors at play that could determine whether this doesn't happen, and if it doesn't happen for the Portland Trailblazers, that's where it kind of gets worrisome because the market right now is kind of dry of star players that could be on the move.

The free agent class is shallow at the positions, positions and the skills they need. So it's like you bring back Norman Powell or you're selling, you know, like low on guys that you really like in order just to switch it up. Like, it's tough to find out what the move is for the Blazers. And that's the scary part here and why so many people around the league think it's inevitable that Damien Lowe will be gone, whether it's his request through a trade demand or whether it's the front office just saying, you know what, we got to blow it up here.

Let me ask you about your draft. board. So you have updated this. Scottie Barnes, the new guy, right? He is the one that moved up quite a bit because the top five has been kind of the top five. I think on, you know, I think everybody's has pretty well been close to the same. Now, Barnes has gotten a lot of talk, not just in yours, but throughout NBA draft chatter over the course of the last couple of weeks. I feel like he and a book night from Yukon have been kind of the two guys.

Absolutely. They've probably been talked up the most post the season ending to this point right now. But we're just a week away from this NBA draft. And you have updated your big board. You are going to update

your mock draft. How much do you think your big board will move within a week's time. We'll see. I mean, I get a lot of questions sometimes. Like, well, what change for you with Scotty Barnes? You know, what change for you to drop so-and-so, you know, from the May board to this board?

And I think, you know, as the draft process escalates, you learn more and more about who these players are as people. I think that's a theme of our conversation tonight, Chris. And like it might not necessarily explain a drop. That might just be going back and watching a whole. lot more video and saying, you know what, I don't like him as much as I did. It's not always character, but in the case of somebody like Scotty Barnes, just the more you learn about him as a person and the way he works and the way just like he loves the game, like these are qualities you want because it matches who you see on the court with just the defensive player he is,

the intensity he plays with the activity, the intelligence on the offensive end of the floor. Like he's a really smart player, the type of guy who could contribute early and the type of guy that could grow into like a multi-positional beast on defense who can run offense a bit. Like that's Draymond-esque, you know, in terms of skills. So add on the fact that maybe he works so hard, he becomes a good shooter. I like that could be a special player, man. And I might not be done moving him up. I have him right now at five.

I mean, I could see him surpassing Suggs at four. I'm not sure I'll end up doing that. But Scotty Barnes is a hell of a talent, man. He is. Okay, tell me about this Cameron Thomas from LSU because that's a name that, I was not expecting to see in the top 10. And you've got him at nine right now. Sure.

Yeah, Cameron Thomas, I think I had him at 17 or 18 on the board that when it was first put up in May. And raising him to nine is like partially both things. What we just talked about with finding out more about him. Because with Cameron Thomas, my impression, you know, just watching straight basketball is like,

damn, like this guy takes a lot of poor shots. He's missing some open teammates with. passes here. The off ball defense is laxadaisical. You know, like there's a legitimate concerns and remain that way. Even after, like, you learn that this is a dude who's like a basketball junkie. Like, he's one of those guys who, like, loves the game and works at it. And teams seem impressed by the way in which he talks about some of those flaws in the sense

that with him, it's like, I just haven't been asked to be a defensive player in high school or in college, like my coaches have always wanted me to avoid falling on that end of the floor. You know, with five files in college, like, they can't, like, I've just always been taught that way. He's like, but I think I can be a really good on-ball defender and I have a lot to learn, you know, an off ball, right? Like, that's my understanding. And you factor that in, like, just the approach to the game stuff, teams are like, so

this guy's a bucket and he's willing to do these things that he hasn't been asked to do before. Well, what could he become with us? So it seems like he's looking like a mid first round pick, you know, maybe late lottery, maybe right outside the lottery. But with Cameron Thomas, like it's a lot of good intel and just also like looking back and watching this guy hit step back, side step threes, turnarounds, heavily contested. I mean, like the guy's a bucket. So it's just, it's really those two things watching the score that he is back and then learning more about who he is and how that could help his weaknesses. You may be surprised by this, but as I was scrolling through your big board, the next name that I was kind of surprised by just seeing it was 22 Joshua Primo from Alabama. Yeah, yeah.

Right? Because it was just, it's just not a name that I, you know, I'm scrolling through this stuff all the time. I'm keeping up with kind of who's in what range on a lot of these mock drafts. but I do feel like I have now I can't I can't speak to everybody else's mock draft so I don't want to offend anybody but I I think you're higher than than most people I haven't I haven't seen him in the 20s oh you have you know a number of different places I just feel like I haven't seen his name nearly as much as many of the others right like because you drop down some of these guys that I frequently see in that 20 to 30 range which sometimes it's Josh Christopher, the kid from Arizona State, or it's the guard, uh, D'Soon Moe from

Illinois, or it's, uh, I don't know. I mean, there's, there's a bunch of them, right? There's, there's a ebb and flow to this stuff. The, the, the Jeremiah Robinson, Earl, who we talked about from Villanova last week. I know you dropped him down a little bit. But anyway, tell me about the kid from Bama, Primo. So, Primo is a great name, by the way. Yeah. With, with him, I mean, it's like, again, good intel, you know, just hear good things about him as a person, as a worker and like his aspirations, like stuff like that. But a bunch more than that, though, it's just, he looked awesome at the NBA draft combine. He looked awesome. I mean, he was everything that he was in Alabama, but also just showed off a little bit more off the dribble. You're wondering,

oh, what kind of type of skill development's happening here that he's more than just, like, like, you know, a really great defensive player who's a really good shooter too. Like there's more to his game there that he was showing off of the combine. And teams love that. I love that watching back those games. So, yeah, bumping him up to 22. I had him like, I think 30s or 40s or something. All right.

I got to ask you about your opinion on the kid from Baylor, who is med cleared now, right? Like there was good news that came out about Jared Butler. Look, this is a very highly tied guy. I mean, hell, you even having your thing shades of gorps. and Dragage and Avery Bradley with a handle. I mean, he's a scorer, man. I mean, and you got him at 27 right now. We talked about Baylor.

That team was, I mean, they were devastating. The way they pissed on Gonzaga in the national title was just stunning, right? And they just, they ran out throughout that tournament. That was a great college basketball team. And inevitably, we're going to look up at a couple of those guys have hit. I know Mitchell is the most highly talented. of those. But now do you think even though they got the med clear, the teams are still going to be really worried about Butler or no? I mean, it doesn't seem like it now that he's been med cleared. Same thing happened for him when he transferred.

So with him, I guess hopefully it's not a problem moving forward. You never know if these things can pop up down the line. But being medically cleared seems like a great sign. And no doubt about his talent, you know, like you said I have him 27th. I want to rank him higher, but I'm also asking myself, how can I rank Jalen Johnson any lower? So it's, it's like a tough push and pull between guys who, like, have theoretical upside and guys who you feel like are going to have a long career in the NBA like Jared Butler. Like, he's going to be a good player. No doubt about it. So where do you draft that guy?

It's a tough balance, isn't it? Because we talked about taking those swings on Ayanas. Like, sometimes, like, you can hit a grand salami, right? Yep. Like the bucks did. Other times you might hit. a double. Sometimes you can take the double when it's there for you in Butler.

Well, and what we've talked about so many times, Kev, is sometimes the double ain't a double. We underrate what the ceiling actually is. Whatever everybody thought was the ceiling for Malcolm Brogden has been surpassed greatly. Even after his rookie season. That's right. That's right. And the ceiling for Jimmy Butler once upon a time.

interestingly enough, named Butler drafted at the end of the first round. Who would have ever thought Jimmy Butler is, you know, a finals hero a year ago. Not when he's getting drafted out of Marquette, I mean, right? Like he was, Jimmy Buller's going to have a good career. I think that's what kind of everybody thought, right? Even his first couple years in the league, Jimmy Butler's going to have a good career. Solid player. I mean this is a compliment.

I swear when I say it, but he's also become the level of player who can push his way out of teams. Yes. You know, like that's a level of talent that you have where you have that amount of leverage to say, I want to play there. He's done it multiple times. He's done at multiple times. Like, he's that level. All right. And before we get out of here, I do have to laugh about something.

So you didn't go all the way to 60 under Big Board. You went all the way to 50. And you did this shit on purpose. Number 50. You had to get him in there, didn't you? Luca Garza. I mean, there's actually a funny, funny. College basketball player of the year.

Luca Garza. Well, the funny, the real story behind it is there's a player like whose card isn't loaded in, who I have like like 44 that we're not able to get into the board at the moment. Hold on. Does it skip? So Garza is actually 51 on my board even though he's listed at 50. No, 44 is there. No, I mean, like, the player I have on my-

Philippe Prutthusiv or whatever. No, there's a player that I have ranked higher who is not able to be on it. And so you used Garza instead? There's something on the back end that needs to be updated. So I like Luca Garza, sorry, you're actually 51st. I thought you did this on purpose because you just put him. No.

And then- It was not. Luca Garza, people throughout the year, they were like, do you think this guy's going to be able to play in the NBA. I'm like, man, I don't know. I mean, he was a unbelievable. You know what? It is a little like you do wonder, um, you do wonder what translates from it. He's a, he's a really skilled guy. I know he's, because he's not like, I don't think we've had a lot of the amazing college player that didn't take it all. Like since like Hansborough, but this guy's like Hansborough was like bully.

This guy's much more skilled than Hansborough was, right? Sure. You know what I'm saying? But like I'm talking like somebody that was like, like we did have a run of those. It was saying it seems like it was more common. Like the Sean Mays. You're right? Like the Tyler Hansborough.

Like I'm talking about these guys that were amazing in college that aren't. But there's been a few. now this Luca Garza, my guy that I loved so much from Loyola, Cameron Cruttwig. Oh, stud. Love him. I had him number one on my board, actually. Love him. I can't believe, I can't believe he's not in your top 50. I hope he's the guy that you couldn't load the card for, Cameron Cruttwig. Do you think with Luca Garza, are we all overthinking this? I just don't know. teams, media, is there a chance?

I get the whole, I get the whole, I just get targeted and he'll get played off the court, but like, he's really good at basketball. He was. He was really good, man. He was really good. Like, if you look at,

let me look this up real quick, this national college player of the years, because I think it's been a while since we've had somebody that was like, you know, that would be considered like that. Frank Mason won it in 17. I thought Frank Mason was actually going to be better. Luca Garza, Obie, Zion, Jalen Brunson, Frank Mason, Buddy Healed, Frank the Tank. Frank Kaminsky.

He was almost a finals hero tonight. Doug McDermott. Trey Bert. who revived his career. Anthony Davis. Jimmer for debt. There's the one. Jimmer.

There's the one. So you could say this is like a big jimmer. And jimmer was the lotto pick too. Evan Turner. Blake Griffin. I mean, those are like decade-long career guys. And then Hansborough. And then before that it was Durant, Reddick, Bogut.

I mean, just national player of the year, I guess you'd say like haven't had because I guess Frank's going to end up having a pretty long career. McDermott, for sure, is that going to have a long career. Frank Mason is really kind of the one, unless you want to go all the way back 10 years to Jimmer. So I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, I'm just saying it's uncommon for somebody to be that awesome in college. But it can't happen. I mean, it just happened a few years ago, Frank Mason. But Jaylen Brunson's totally solid, right? Yeah. And look, if Jimmer came around, around now, he'd actually play in the NBA. You can't tell me that Trey Young does what he does, but Jim are coming out of, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean, maybe not Trey, but like,

even if you want to say Bryn Forbes, like even if you want to say that, like level player. I'm just saying they'd let you play like that now. Sure. In a way that they didn't in 2011. You couldn't come in and shoot it from 40 feet away, especially if you're coming out of college. He also didn't shoot the ball at the same level that he did in college either. He's like 37, 38% from three in his NBA career. Like it just was like a tick below elite. He wasn't like the 43%, 44% guy. Had he been that, who knows?

Maybe he would have gotten more opportunities into his 30s. It's going to be really funny if Luca Garza is an awesome NBA player though because nobody likes him in the trap. And it's going to be like, hey, and then it's going to be like, what did we need to see the guy was the best college basketball player there was. I think I might have to stump for. I hope it does happen. Yeah. Stump for Luca Garza.

It's a legitimate possibility. It like really is because of the amount of skill on offense. I'd have put his ass next to Aiton tonight just to have a big body in there. Man, Aiton tonight though. I mean, look, like it's a sour ending for the suns here. Yeah.

But there's still so much to feel good about with Devin Booker's development, hopefully get Chris Paul back. It's over. It's over, Kev. The Bright Future is over. Dei Andre Ate and still are remarkable playoffs. Playing 40 plus minutes. Bright future's over, dude.

It's a good run. You think it's over, Chris? I don't think it's over for the Suns. I think the Suns are going to be back in. Like, maybe not the finals. No guarantees there because the West is tough. But they're going to be back in the race. Of course they are.

Yeah. Good. I'm glad. Bright future still. I mean, they'll lose in the first round. To Memphis.

Oh, buddy, don't ever let that matchup happen. The 36 series next year or something? That'd be all right. You think Chris Paul's going back there, right?

They have to. I'd be shocked. They'll just sign a big extension. Can you imagine if he left after this year? I can't imagine that. No way, right? I mean, who knows,

but I can't see it. Are we going to find out he was hurt? Oh yeah, definitely. We will. I don't think he, I legitimately don't think he was 100%. We started recording this podcast right after. So if he walked to the podium with a cast on like LeBron,

I'm going to. Yeah. My hand is broken for the last four games. Yeah. I've been playing with a broken hand. Yeah. It's in the dark. I hope that didn't happen.

I hope they didn't happen. I hope we don't see. You know what? I just pulled up Twitter. You know, first thing I see pop up, a quote from Janus, I want a trade. He said that? Yeah, he's joking, obviously. Oh, that's so good.

So great. Oh, perfect. Oh, good. All right. Well, we're going to have, we're going to have the Olympics coming up. We're going to have the draft coming up. we've got all kinds of stuff that's going to be taking place over the course of the next couple of weeks. And this is a really compacted schedule because not only are we going to have the draft just within a week's time.

And we'll do more draft in these next two shows before the NBA draft next week. Then we're just going to be turning around. It's going to be Summer League right after that out in Las Vegas with a bunch of guys. I will say this. There's a bunch of guys that are going to be playing in that. and I had not thought about that until this week because I happened to be around one of the young teams in the league, obviously.

And guys that even you wouldn't necessarily would think would be playing in Summer League are like the Desmond Baines, the Savortilman's, some of the even older guys than that, because it's hard to remember this, but none of them have played in Summer League. And so guys that are like third year guys, second year guys, you know, if you're going into your third year, you didn't play in a summer league your second year.

And if you're going into your second year, you've never played in a summer league before. And so I do actually think we'll see a bunch of guys participating in that this year in a way that maybe we haven't in the past, right? It would be, you know, reasonable amount of second year guys, but certainly not a lot of second year guys that played real minutes in their rookie year. But I do think we're going to see more of those type of guys this year playing in Summer League. And then the rookies because you just didn't, those guys didn't get the chance. So my dream is that you and I meet up in Vegas and we together. get to see Poku in person.

What a dream that would be. Oh, my God. I see you got a, you got a Yana shirt on. I got to get a Poku shirt. I have a Yonahua shirt. I got to get one, yeah. My sister, my sister lives in Chicago. When they first opened that arena in Milwaukee, she went to the game.

And she was, she phasedime to me. She said, this arena is amazing. She went into the team store, and it was extravagant. I got a nice place there. I need to go there someday. And she said, who do you want? And I said, I want Janus. And she asked my son.

She said, who do you want? Now, he already had a Janus jersey. And so who did he pick? This is whatever it was. I guess three years ago now. So who did he pick, Kevin? And I will tell you, we just saw the jersey two days ago as we were cleaning out his closet to throw stuff to take to goodwill. but we are not throwing this away because it is a relic.

Who did he ask for? What's his buck's jersey? He's got Yonahus. Is the player still on the team? No. How about Thonmaker? It is not Thonmaker. Ilyasova?

It is not Ileasov. Gasol? Nope. He has a Malcolm Brogden. Malcolm Brogden. Yeah, he does. I was going on deep bench over here. Malcolm Brogden.

He does. He has a Malcolm Procton that we refuse to throw away. Okay. So that's a relic. That was Brogden's last year with the Bucks then. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So he wasn't in Indiana at that point. So he had the, he had the, he had a Yonis. And my, my sister said, so who do you want, William? And I was like, well, just pick somebody. And he's like, I want Malcolm Brogden. That's funny. Why?

He's the point card. He wanted Malcolm Brogden. So we have a Malcolm Brogson. Shout out to Malcolm Procton. Malcolm Brogden. What a player. Yeah. Former NBA rookie in the year.

Hey, play for Rick Carlisle now. Hey, we'll see. You never know. Look what he did for Luca. Yeah. Yeah. Now Brogden. becomes a 30 point for game.

Right. And Luke is going to 21 points. He's going to turn to crap. It was all a Rick Carlisle creation. Carlisle this whole time. That's what it was. Oh, shocks. Oh, God.

Jason kid ruins Luca. Oh, Lord. Oh, Lord. All right. Kevin made it all the way to an NBA season and we cried a champion. And I am, I'm happy the Bucks won the title. you're not, but I am. I know you.

You love your sons. You love your sons. I'll tell you what, Chris. I mean, I'm happy for sons fans, too, that they got to enjoy this journey. You know? It's a remarkable, this run, this whole past year. It's an incredible story and should always be embraced, despite how it ended. And for Bucks fans, you know, like I said, I'm mid-reading that Mare and Fader book on Janus.

There's a whole chapter about the Bucks and how this team almost moved. Wow. Right. And also everything else the city's been through with sports leading up to that. And it has like a lot of quotes from fans in there about just the meaning of this team. And then you see 65,000 people out there in the Deer District outside of a crazy loud arena. I can't imagine what the decibel levels were at certain points during the series. And then you get it.

And so for the Bucks fans, like, I'm so happy for them, man. Like the book gives you, like gave me a deeper understanding of them. and like seeing it in real action with everything, how they got to this point, Yana signing the contract when he could have waited. Yana's hyper extending his knee.

Then coming back and still being an MVP. That's right. And winning it all, like, go Bucks fans. He'll have a statue outside. Enjoy it. He will. I mean,

that 50 years. 50 years. For people that have been true Bucks fans their whole lives, what a moment. What a moment. And for the best player to have a frigging.

at 50 points when it mattered. Just, unbelievable. Insanity. All right. Well, we are going to be talking about the NBA draft and other stuff over the course of the, and then we're going to have the draft. We're going to have free agency. We're going to have Summer League.

We're going to have the Olympics going on. So basketball is not going to stop anytime soon, but we do get to put a bow on this NBA season with the bucks as deserving champions. I want to send our thanks to Carlos for filling in as producer once again for us. And Kevin, I will talk to you on. Friday. Hey man. This wraps up the whole season for us, Chris, but now on Thursday, Thursday show, turn the page. The offseason. I'm excited for it.