The Mismatch - Have We Discovered the Lakers’ Ceiling? Plus: The Rockets’ Identity, Murray’s Injury, and Predicting Entertaining Playoff Series.

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

(RECORDED BEFORE THE NEWS OF MICHAEL MALONE AND CALVIN BOOTH’S FIRING) Verno and Jacoby congratulate Florida on beating Houston in the NCAA basketball championship (01:10). Will fans remember this game or the Duke collapse more? Next, the guys discuss the Lakers’ impressive win against the Thunder and why they showcased their true ceiling in this huge win (07:25). They also discuss the Rockets’ win over the Thunder from Friday night and why they are poised to be a tough out in the playoffs (14:57). How far can the Nuggets really go without Jamal Murray, whose availability for the playoffs is now in doubt (29:33)? Lastly, the guys go through each conference and discuss which potential playoff matchups would be the most entertaining (40:05), as well as why Draymond Green isn’t a bona fide lock for Defensive Player of the Year (52:18). Leave us a message on our Mismatch Voicemail line! [phone] Walmart Express. Dinner, delivered in as fast as an hour The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Chris Vernon and David Jacoby Producers: Jessie Lopez and Tucker Tashjian Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me see us every week from the ringer.com is Dave Jacoby. Jacoby. What's happened to Verno? So good to be outside of the house. Yeah, well, the first thing we've got to get to is last night's NCAA National Championship game, which everybody was focused. on because it was a super light night in the NBA, though we have a huge week ahead. Florida wins the national championship 65 to 63. I must say I am, I'm watching, I've watched a ton of this NCAA tournament, but as someone who watches NBA games on a regular basis, though it was not pretty, though it was a totally different brand of basketball, I got to tell you, I was super entertained by the game. The whole Final Four has just been top-notch.

And again, when I say top-notch, I mean in terms of entertaining emotional little basketball. Because the actual basketball is not even close to the NBA. But put that aside is one of the things I asked myself last night, I want to ask you now, is remember last year's NBA finals, right? Celtics win, Mavs lost. Right. I felt nothing towards the Mavericks players or coaches. Nothing. I couldn't care less.

But watching the end of the game last night, I just felt so crushed. I just felt so secondhand crushed for those Houston players, just all of them and just like the emotions on their face. It's something about their youth, and they are getting paid, so it's not even like that anymore. But my sort of like secondhand depression is so different watching the college game than the NBA game.

We need somebody to cry when they, lose. That's what we need. I cried. No, no. I'm saying in the NBA. What if a guy just hit the ground like it? Embed, Embedded that. But we make fun of them for it. We make fun of them for it. We do. We make fun of them for it.

I'll tell you this. There's no way your heart cannot break for Emmanuel Sharp. Oh, God. Because and in some cases, in many cases, who knows, I don't know if Emmanuel Sharp is going to be an NBA player or not. I'm sure he will make a living playing

professional basketball, whether it's in the NBA or elsewhere. But I, years ago, I was at one of the most famous college moments like that. I was in the arena. Well, obviously, one of the biggest meltdowns happened in 2008 when Memphis lost the Final Four to Kansas. But beyond that, there is a Darius Washington was playing for Memphis. And they had a chance to go to the NCAA tournament if they beat Rick Petino and Louisville. And he got fouled on a three at the end.

And I still to this day cannot watch it back on like YouTube. And when they show it back, it breaks my heart every time because he misses the free throws and he falls on all fours. And Vern Lundquist is like somebody's got to go help that kid up. Oh, God. And I was in the arena, Jacoby, and you could have heard a pin drop. It was the most depressing thing. I mean, it was horrible. And last night, I had this flashback as I watch Emmanuel Sharp because this team that has been full of dogs that has gotten to this moment

and then did not lose their grip on things, even down big to Duke and strong. storm back in that game, their last four possessions, they turned it over every time. Oh, my God. The last four possessions and two of them are the same kid. Yeah. And it was, the last possession. Brutal. The last possession wasn't.

That was really more of a defensive play by Clayton, but they didn't score in the last two minutes and 20 seconds. You're not going to win a lot of games. You're not going to win close games like that. And you know what? I always say this is like, it's going to hurt. but being the second best team is just, it's good too.

No, no. You're gonna part ways. You made the final four. You made the final four. You're on the floor. No. And I just, from the emotional standpoint in terms of like personal stories,

I loved Clayton's game. Because all we were talking about is this kid coming into the finals. It's all we would talk about. And he couldn't get anything done. And you could tell, because we always talk about Houston's defense. We talked about them at length. and everyone's talking about them,

and they were not letting him do any, any, anything. And then they took him out, and they were showing him on the bench. And finally, he made some huge buckets down the stretch. And obviously that defensive contest was just sort of like broke the play. So I like the, I like that it wasn't superstar has bad game, loses finals, and that changes his life forever. It is, superstar has bad game,

make some huge plays down the stretch, wins the championship with his team. me makes. Fun to watch though. And congrats to Florida. That was, it is, I honestly think,

like sometimes this stuff comes and goes and you don't even remember what happened the way it ends. That is certainly one I think that we are going to remember for,

I mean, as long as we can. I mean, this is, it's going to be one that stands out. So, question,

I'm glad you said that sort of about like, what will echo through time from this tournament? Because I think it's going to be the Duke collapse. I think the Duke collapse will echo through time much more than the actual national championship game that came down to the last possession.

I think you're probably right about that simply because it was Duke involved. I didn't realize. And because it was like I mean, it was unheard of. I didn't realize that because I'm not as involved in the college game and I didn't go to a college that has a big basketball program. I didn't realize that when Duke loses,

the rest of the country celebrates this hard. Like, I didn't know that these were the dynamics. Did you just move to the United States? Yeah, it was just like, oh, Duke lost. It was just like, we just celebrated the Duke breakdown as a nation for 48 hours until the finals. Well, there's another team that people do root against pretty vociferously if they are not a fan of. And that is the Los Angeles Lakers. And it was a bad weekend for anybody that roots against them.

because my God, Jacoby, what they did to Oklahoma City this weekend was incredible. There's a lot of narrative of Luca versus Oklahoma City. This was a thorn. He's been a thorn in their side prior to. And he had 37 and 6. They out rebounded the Thunder 43 to 34. There was no free throws for Shea Gildes Alexander. and I wonder, as you watch that unfold this weekend, what level of significance, we need to discuss what level of significance we put on that.

Because is this a, the Lakers are in a situation where they need to win games, especially given the state of the Western Conference. And so you are never going to be able to manufacture desperation and not like L.A. is desperate, but it mattered much, much, much more to them than it does the Oklahoma City Thunder. No matter what happens, it's not going to change the standing of the Oklahoma City Thunder. And the Lakers were absolutely nuclear from three. What level of significance do you think we put on what the Lakers did? to the thunder. It's a, it's a really good question because it's almost like a debate class. I could take either side of this. I could say that this is the most significant win for the Lakers. They prove where their ceiling is. They are a really tough out and they just absolutely curb stomped the best team in the Western Conference, if not the entire league. Right. And you could say they figured things out and they're growing this and that. But I think it's interesting, you know, because I'm going to bring up a game that I brought up before was that the

Cup game between the Luca and the then Mavs and the Thunder because they absolutely just dominated Luca. They're doubling him into touch. There was just, and no one else could score. And they made it, they made it look like it wasn't even a challenge for them to stop Luca. And that game, Luca was unstoppable. Early on in the game, they ran a double at him at half court. He kicked into DFS, DFS down to Rui, Rui Dunk. And then in Casein Wallace just seemed like too small for him. And then he gets a sweat and Chet is on him. And he just hits a step back three. It just felt like this defense, which rockets them, whoever, you know, best defense in the league, this defense, which I've seen be so dominant and shut down so many great players and so

many great offenses, just did not have an answer for Luca, no matter what they threw at him. And when you ask about the significance, this is not going to change the way I feel about teams, but the Luca Lakers have had high highs and low lows, but this is the absolute ceiling. Okay. I will say I have been on an island as compared to many of my peers about my skepticism of Oklahoma City. Is that fair? Oh yeah. You're alone. You're alone. You and a volleyball out there. And I watch them both games. And part of the reason I have said this is because I have lived to this rooting for a young team that's trying to make their way. way and then you run up against teams that are loaded with full grown men and it looked like a team of full grown men for the lakers it also looked that way in many cases when they were playing against houston on friday night right and so and that's that that's a hard thing for us to square

is does the recent swoon of cleveland matter does the last two games where they have played against playoff peers that they might very well see in the playoffs for teams that probably needed it more than them, do those matter? They have built this massive track record throughout the year that has been absolutely unbelievable, but trying to decide how significant that is against those teams because they got bullied twice, right? Ket Homegrenad had four rebounds and three rebounds. That's what happened against Houston and then against L.A.

And you are going up against these teams that have these full-grown men. And I got to say, to me, the Houston one was more significant than the Lakers one. because I think that you and I are on the same page where we don't have some kind of massive questions about the Lakers or what level of playoff team they are going to be. There's a proper respect for LeBron James and Luca Donchich and Austin Reed, that group, right? And they've kind of settled on their eight guys where they bring Vando and they bring DFS and they bring Gabe Vincent. So they got their eight, okay? Like, they might be a little, they might not have the best of rim protection. Rim protection is certainly a question.

But here's the thing. One of the things you noticed when you were watching them on Sunday is like, bro, okay, they don't have that. But damn it, if the whole damn team is not six, eight or above, it seems like, on the rest of the time. So it's like, they kind of make up for it by having real size all across the board. So Houston was the one that we were going to be looking at. We looked at it. We go, look, and you look back to, you know, the last month, the schedule lightened up for them. But the schedule was about to get murderous.

Houston was about to have to play Oklahoma City. They're about to have to play Golden State. Their next game is the Clippers. Then they play at the Lakers. Then they play Denver. It's like that is a five-game stretch of murder. And they have passed the test with flying colors through the first two. Houston, the Lakers, if you wanted to say it mattered a lot more to them than Oklahoma City.

And they just went nuclear from three. And, you know, if you make 20-something threes, I don't care what team, right? I mean, that one to me is a little easier to write off and just say, that was a extreme outlier. Like, who is shooting like that? That was crazy. They're shooting 70-something percent from three. And then you're just rolling a boulder uphill if you're Oklahoma City.

The Houston one, though, to me, was more significant because of the Houston side of this, which is, all right, this is a great regular season story. They're obviously going to have the two seed. But what's going to happen when this schedule tightens? up on them in these last five. And not only if they won both those games, Jacoby, they won them both by double digits. They beat both those teams by double digits.

And so I think we got to really perk up on Houston, who is now 15 and 2 in their last 17 games. Damn. Well, a couple things. Number one, I'll just hit the Lakers quickly first to say, you're right to point out. So guess what? You miss your threes against the Warriors, you lose.

You hit a ton of threes against the thunder. You win easily. You score 78 points in the first half. You're going to win the game, right? And there is sort of some shooting variants that has been well documented and discussed that you're just going to have to deal with as an NBA team. But the thing about the Lakers, the post-Luca Lakers I find so interesting, is the defensive variance.

Like, they gave up 146 to the Bulls. Right. And then they shut down the thunder. Like, it just, and then that to me is what's frightening if I'm in the Western conference and I'm not the Lakers. because we all know that in the regular season over 82 games or the 25 games that Luke has been there or whatever, that, you know, effort, intensity, rest can kind of go up and down. But in the playoffs is when they're going to play their best events and they've proven that they can really ratchet that end up. And I give JJ Redick a lot of credit for sort of the defensive scheming that he's put together.

And I also find it really interesting in the sort of chess move that this evening. that this evening, let me just look at this here. Rui Aachamora has been ruled out. Donchich questionable. Finney Smith questionable. Bron James, questionable. The other LeBron James is questionable.

Austin Reeves is questionable. Gabe Vincent is questionable. They're basically saying, and both the games are in OKC. They're basically saying, you see what we did to you on Sunday? You're not going to see us again. Yeah. We're not going to give you an opportunity to get right against us.

We're not even going to give you the sort of like, the emotional satisfaction of turning this around because you're going to be playing against Jackson Hayes and a bunch of other dudes. And you can have that win. Go ahead because we're going to be fully rested when we go to Dallas for Lucas game against the Maverick and Dallas. It's a super interesting chess move. And you do have to wonder, again, I'm setting this aside.

It very well may be and it may come to pass that those games that we are now getting from the Lakers, from the Clippers, from Minnesota, from all of these teams, we are getting playoff level intensity simply because of the standings. Nobody wants to be playing in the play-in. Nobody wants to not have home court advantage. Like these games matter a massive amount simply because everybody has the same amount of losses. And so, of course, if you are in that spot, you are going to treat that game and

that scout and that level of intensity much, much differently than you are if your spot is secured. And that's what I'm trying. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm trying to figure out if it matters at all what's going on with Cleveland and what's going on with Oklahoma City. I won't say it doesn't matter at all. I'd say it's not that significant. It doesn't change the way I feel about their playoff potential.

And I also think the Lakers are now kind of locked into three because they need to win two games, which is kind of why they're taking this one off because they have the Mavericks and the Blazers on the schedule left. They've got the Mavericks, the Rockets, and then the Blazers. but the rest like the four through whatever in the west that that grouping that's these are they're all playing playoff games right now i do i do want to pivot to the rockets because i think they have been just so interesting lately okay so i said they're 15 and two right i went pulled this jacobby they're 15 and two in their last 17 games they won by double digits over okoma city they won by double digits over golden state golden state was a close game i think it's fair to say

They might be double digits, but they were, that was close game. Yeah, I got it. And they were both wars. Oklahoma City, Jalen Green at 34, and then he had 21 against Golden State. Look good in both of those games, which is one of the things that we have talked about. So I went and pulled it when this all started. So from March 6th to roughly April 6th, two days ago, they are 15 and 2. since that time in the 17 games

Houston has had the number four offense in the NBA the number two defense in the NBA and the second best net rating in the NBA now what is interesting is I went to go pull those numbers just to see like how they've been playing for this month as we head into and obviously they are startling numbers incredible numbers

what was most fascinating I was like who is you know of course you got to like sift through that stuff and I'm like who is number one like who has a bet their net rating is plus 13 per 100 possessions it is the Los Angeles clippers at plus 15 oh yeah the clippers have been they've all got the same record right aren't they like 13 and 3 in their last 16 or something if we're trying to check out like all right who's been playing their best basketball leading into the playoffs whether that's indicative of what's going to happen or not. Certainly, those are a couple of teams that we've got to perk up at. But let's start

with Houston and what we've made of them knocking off both Oklahoma City of Golden State over the weekend. One of the things I love about Houston and what they did to Steph Curry was just, I mean, I don't think I've seen Steph Curry play worse. I really don't. I mean, he had some assist and he was like playmaking or whatever, but like they put him in Thompson on them. They're like, whatever. Don't even look. Just don't even look. Don't even turn your head over your shoulder on defense. Just cover him.

And then the warriors start, they're like, oh, we're going to target Fred Van Blee. We'll target Fred Bambliet. He's covering Draymond. Oh, let's just eat that up. And to Fred Bambi beats credit, he really sort of ratcheted up and was not allowing himself to be targeted in that way. And I really felt that, you know, when teams decide they have a mismatch on the floor and they're going to milk that mismatch.

Sometimes it sort of gets them out of whack. And I felt like that's what they did with the Warriors. And the thing about this Rocket's team that I love, because I was watching that clip of EMA and Steph kind of going back and forth, right? You saw that clip. We all saw that clip. And I remember, I was like, damn, like, wasn't it last year

that EMA was trying to start with LeBron James? Yep. I was like, didn't he say, like, you're not that type? And I was like, then I started thinking, I was like, how many coaches in the NBA currently do we, have that routinely sort of like go back and forth aggressively with opposing players. And it started, it got me going to another word, which I loved about the Knicks last year, which is identity.

Like the rockets have an identity and it's led by Ime Udoka. It's we're going to be physical. We're going to be defensive. We're going to mix it up a little bit. And if Drayman gets into it with Sangun, we're going to give it back to him. and we're going to, if EMAe over here, Steph complained to the rest, he's going to pipe up and say something.

And I just absolutely love that for them. And over the course of this month, I'm going to be honest, I was looking at the Rockets and the Grizzlies as first round exits in the Western Conference for quite some time. And that list is now down to one team because I,

I knew you would do this. If the Grizzlies make the playoffs. And I will say that, that the rockets have convinced me that they are the number two seat. I'm going to say that the second best chance to make the NBA finals, but my opinion of them has dramatically changed. It's so fascinating that they both are harbored in the same city. They remind me of the college team.

I was going to say that too. If you told me that they got in a gutter war and lost by not getting a shot off at the end of the game, You would not surprise me. You know what I mean? Like everything about those two themes you love, it's like, all right, we're about to drag you into hell with us and we're going to see how you react to it. I mean, that was the whole Emeudoka thing.

You know, you heard him say cry twice. If they start crying, make them cry more. You know what I mean? Like, we're going to, we're putting our hands on them. We're going to make everybody adjust to us. Like, let them complain about. about the fouls and everything else, but that's not us, right? Like, I mean, they want that thing to be a fight.

They want to pull you into a bar fight, which is exactly what just gave so much success to that Houston Cougars team. And yet, the same way we talk about it, which is you're going to have these specific game plans towards that team, and we don't know how all those guys are going to react, but we know they got a lot of guys that shoot like 40-something percent from. the field, right? They don't do this with this incredible offensive acumen. They do this by, all right, fine, we're going to put Stephen Adams and Shengoon out there at the same time, and you're never getting a rebound. If we miss, we get it back. If you miss, we get it.

It is, they remind me so much in many ways of those gritt and grind Grizzlies teams that I covered for so many years, where you came to the party with Zibo and Gasol. You had Tony Allen running around out there like Amman Thompson. Like, and again, you might not be offensively, you might not be offensively good enough to be able to get it done like when it's nip-tuck, in the last couple of minutes, but whoever they play is going to come out of that thing with bumps and bruises and they will have had to go to hell and back in order to win it because every single night they are just going to lay it out there on the line. They may not be, they may have the offensive deficiencies that hold them back, which was true of those old Memphis.

teams. Yeah. And what made it even more fascinating is watching the play Golden State. I mean, I was like, I'm having deja vu here. Like, I remember this. I remember this team that couldn't get, you know what I mean? You were bullying them. You were pushing them around.

You were, you know, pumped your chest out. I'm not talking about the young, the young grizzlies that got into it with them a couple of years ago. I'm talking about the old teams. Like, I'm talking a decade ago 15 years ago watching these games. And what's crazy is, obviously two of the major competitors from that, Curry and Dremont, still exist. I mean, they were young at that point. But this Houston team, I promise you this, whenever you have to go up against them, you're going to know you went up against them because they are going to fight you every single game.

They are. They are fun. They're fun. I think the two big thing has been talked about a lot with Sengoon and Adams. and watching them, it's not just about the sort of metrics and the counting stats. It's just, it's like, all right,

guess what, Stephen Adams didn't get that offensive rebound, but you had to work so hard to keep him off the boards, and you have to do it next possession and next possession. Watching people try to move him. It's like, yeah, Steve Adams didn't get the rebound. Like, good win for you, but it takes 100% effort to make that the case. And it's the same way on, when you're on office, offense, and I'm watching Steph Curry, because he was having a tough game.

I was watching how they're defending him. And it just, he's working so hard just to get the ball in his hands. And, and they make you work so hard and they wear you down, sort of like that University of Houston team. Like, it's just hard to operate. They make things difficult for you to operate. And it has been very successful. But am I going to sit here into this microphone and say they're going to be in the Western

Conference finals? Probably not. Probably not. And I still feel like they are a star away from a contending team, but they've looked really good lately, and they've got the bones, man. They've got the bones and the coach and the attitude and the identity. And I really love to see what they do in the post.

And they're going to make for a fun playoff series, no matter who they face up, right? Yes. No matter who they have to face, it's going to make for a fun playoff series because you know they are different than everybody else. they're unique. We're not saying they're better than everybody else.

No, they're unique. They bring something different to the table. Yes. They bring something different to the table. They are. And it's also different for everything that has to face them. I mean, Chet was in hell on Friday night. Oh, yeah.

It's like, wow, this sucks. Like, it just sighs and these full-grown men and they're just bodying me on a regular basis. It's like, man, I need to go get some creotin. And Chet One day Chet's going to be the bully But it's not yet You know what I mean

Right And you see These guys trying to box out Stephen Adams I mean I got this full Stephen Adams experience here

And it is Fantastic It is fantastic I love Stephen Adams I've always been a fan I've always been a fan I've always been a fan Since OKC

I just like his Because he's He's got the brute force. Like, just a Stephen Adam's screen is just different than any other screen in the league. But he also has touch and hands. Like, one of the things that bothers me so much about Mitchell Robinson is he, he catches like two-thirds of the passes there are thrown his way.

You know what I mean? Two-thirds is a, come on. That's all right. But still, I want to say, why does Brunton always throw the ball low? I don't know. Why does he do that all the time? He loves passing at people's ankles. Because he's a little dude.

I got it. But Stephen Adams, it's like he's got the brute force and he's the ability to get the ball, but he'll also put it back with soft hands. And he'll catch a pass with soft hands, which I love about him. But the transition here is we're talking about teams going the right direction. Nuggets, Verno. Oh, I hated the Mike Malone, Michael Malone. I know he gets mad if you call him Mike.

Michael Malone. Michael. I don't know if you saw these after, you know, this recent. swoon, this skid that they have had. And so he was meeting with reporters, and he was asked about Murray. And basically the inference, I think, from, I've got the, I've got the quote right here. The reporters was, is he okay? You know, basically is this precautionary because we're headed towards the playoffs?

And he was like, no, Jamal is hurt. This is not being careful. He is hurt. It was day to day, and the next thing you know, it's not day to day. But he's hurt. And I was like, oh, no. Like, you want to talk about horrendous time because we saw him hobbled last year. And he was a shell of himself.

And I think one of the things that we realize is Yokic needs him. to not only be available, but be awesome. And that, at least from those quotes, makes you wonder if that's even possible. Yeah. The, I mean, so we did a show, I think it was a week ago, the night, the morning after that double overtime, game of the year, Timberwolves,

Nuggets. Murray was out. But like, what a game. And I'm watching that game. I'm saying to myself, this is not just amazing basketball. These are two teams that have playoff intensity, playoff ceilings.

Wow. Right? Wow. If Westbrook makes the layup, who knows? Look at the Nuggets. Doing this without Murray. They haven't won since.

They lost to the Spurs. They didn't play anybody in that game. They lost to the Warriors. and they lost the paces in a tight one. But the Murray thing is, it's very concerning. If you're a Nuggets fan, you're saying to yourself,

then we can't do this again. Because it's starting to feel more like the championship was the outlier with Murray's health, rather than last year was the outlier with Murray's health. The Murray thing, as my good friend, Chris Vernon, says, Soft tissue, hamstring. And this is not new with Murray and injuries. And there's a world in which we look back at that championship run and that duo during that run.

And we say that was the outlier season. That was the one when he was healthy. Because if this goes the wrong way, there's a, there's a, there's a track record now of his, his unavailability leading to them losing. could you imagine if they were the ones that were in the play in? It's possible. I mean, yeah, look, you have all of these teams. You have six teams that all have 32 losses. Now, the Nuggets right now have one more win than their peers,

but you look down the stretch. It's at Sacramento, Memphis, at Houston. And Houston, Houston won't really have anything to play for at that point. probably not no but the grizzies got something to play for yeah

the kings look pretty good last night while everyone else is watching the national championship I know right how about have you ever seen Levine so fired up oh my god we can talk about the Kings

another time but like they're the team I loathed on Friday but there is that version of them too where it's like a legit big three with Malik Munk as like your guy off the bench Like there's a version of the Kings, which is very scary. Especially if you were like the team that loses the 7-8 game and let's say they beat like Dallas, right?

Like either one of those, look, whoever loses the 7-8 game is going to have to face either Anthony Davis or that group which on a random night, if you're playing a 48-minute game, you know you could chalk up a bonus for a double-double. and one of those guys can get hot and drop 36 on you. They got multiple guys that could. So again, if you're just playing, if your whole season comes down to one game, it's like these guys can be dangerous. I can't imagine why Chris Vernon would be focused on the team that loses the seven,

eight games fate. Well, hold on now. Oh, wait, that's the Memphis Grizzlies. You already know. You already know. Well, look, Memphis is going to beat Charlotte. So that gets you to 48, right? No, I'm sorry, 47.

47. And then you look at theirs down the stretch. They control their own fate. They're playing Minnesota and they're playing Denver. So you can get to a win total that they can't. Meanwhile, we know that, uh, the clippers and the warriors play each other. So one of them is for sure going to have a loss, right?

There's only a finite amount of teams that can get to, right? Like if you're looking, how can I get to 49? How can I get to 50? Like the maximum amount of games, you know the maximum amount of games that either the clippers or the warriors is reduced by one because they play against each other. The maximum amount of games you can get to if you are Minnesota or Memphis or Denver or Memphis is reduced by one because you're playing each other. And so all of these teams in most cases control their own destiny. They sit there.

They have no one to blame. A lot of times it can be indicative of like you are at the mercy of the other teams and what they are going to do. but so many of them are playing against each other down the stretch that if you are, say, Memphis, you sit there and you go, look, if we get to this number, the other teams can't because we play both of them. And so it is what it is. I don't have to get bogged down with Memphis talk because, you know, but I'll say this. You brought it up.

I didn't bring it up. I did. That's fair. But there's that Timberwolves game in Memphis Thursday night. Late game, too. Tough game. and then what is it, board a plane and go to Denver? It's the worst back to back in history.

Like, I don't even know how that works time-wise. No, it's the worst back-to-back. It's like, I don't even know how that works. I mean, it's a disaster. Listen, and there's an altitude thing to. So games are typically 7.30 games. I'm sorry, 7 o'clock games. Seven Central, eight-year time.

Yeah, yeah. That game's an 8-30 game. So it's 9.30 my time? Correct. Ew. I mean, they won't even get on the plane until what? Like 12, one, one? And even then.

And then you're going to Denver, which is you lose every. And no one is. If you win a back to back in Denver, you deserve a trophy. I don't think it's ever happened. I don't think it's ever happened. I don't think ever said it ever because they've been road trips where you go from like, you know, Utah to Denver. or you just take a short plane ride or whatever.

But going sort of like from the east, which Memphis isn't exactly the east, but like, you know, taking a long flight to Denver with a built in altitude advantage and like, they got Nicola Yokic. You know what that means?

It's going to be tough. That too. That's going to be tough. That's going to be tough. This episode is brought to you by Walmart. Life gets busy and we could all use an extra hour or save one. With Walmart Express delivery,

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All right, let's get to what we've got here this last week. So we were talking about the standings and kind of how it shakes up. If we were going, like, so we've got this week to play out, obviously we'll be able to reconvene on Friday. If you were picking an opponent,

again, this can shake out a myriad of different ways. Oh, yeah. Who would you want Oklahoma City to be matched up with in the first round? For the best possible, for the most fun. Oh, for me. Not if I'm not if, oh, for the most fun? Yeah, yeah, no, as a viewer. And I am going to set aside any of my rooting. And as a viewer, what would be the most fun to watch that could happen? That could happen. So I'm taking the Lakers out. The Lakers are out. I would say... Because they're not going to fall to the play.

No, no. The Lakers need to win two games. And they still have the Trailblazers and that Mavs game. They're going to win that Mavs game by 55 points. Like, please. But I would say, it would be the Golden State Warriors. It would be... Golden State.

You know what? Because let me explain. And this is right up your alley, Farno, right up your alley. So I had Golden State against Houston because of the smoke that just happened on Sunday. Let me just give you my pitch. Let me give you my pitch. Historically great team.

You can look at all the numbers up and down. You could write a full 400 page book about this Thunder season and how amazing they are, even without chat, and, you know, and Jaylon Williams, Jay Will getting hurt and the defensive numbers and everything, at SGA, the MVP. You could write this whole, you could just,

you could just sing their praises for, hours. But guess what? We got Steph Curry, he's got gray hair, we got Draymond Green with a gray beard, we got Jimmy Butler who like has the most impactful like eight, six and four game you've ever seen in your whole entire life. And we've got the championship pedigree. So what we've got, we just battle scars up and down our bodies against the young, hot team with the best regular season that we've seen in a long time, if not for us. right that that to me would be the ideal matchup it's that clash of styles it's it's it's it's play it's experience versus regular season success and that that's not going to be an easy series for

the thunder win so would you rather watch so i had it as houston warrior simply be and i may be prisoner of the moment because of the ima udoka stuff sunday well it's not just that the drayman shangoon thing was pretty real like it's series would be amazing. They're barking at each other and like that whole thing on the inbounds with the tech and then shangoon getting an one and screaming at them and you doka and step currie in the post games you know they're they're trading little barbs at each other like how can you not want that so i had i had okay c was hard to find a po too and i don't think that i don't think they're going to be eight but the clippers would be the fun one simply because i mean they traded

sGA to once a part of time people forget you have and then you have and And this is one of those, like, rights of passage, the young team going up against the hardcore veteran team that's been very good recently. And, you know, they're going to get schemed up by Ty Lou and Jeff Van Gundy. And so that's truly like playoff scars walking through the fire, like having to play again. You're going to get tested in a massive way. I don't think that would be as competitive as a Warriors series. Oh, I think the clippers have been absolutely awesome recently. I didn't say that.

It's not what I said. I said, I don't think it would be as competitive. I think the Warriors would be more competitive against the Thunder than the Clippers. Really? Yeah, I do. Oh, wow. I disagree completely. I think the Clippers are like, I think they're scary.

I think they're scary. It's just, I just don't rely. Would you rather watch the Lakers play against the Nuggets, the Wolves, or the Grizzlies? All right. So the Mavericks can't get to the six. seed. Lakers, Nuggets, Wolves, Grizzlies. Obviously, I'm just because of the history, I'm going Nuggets there.

Lakers Nuggets? We've seen it. You know what I mean? It's like, we've seen it. So this is the time where the Lakers turn the corner now because they've added. I mean, I would favor the Lakers in that series, but it's also dramatic and fun if the Nuggets beat them again. You got Luca.

Like we bring in next year to try to beat us, you know, like that would be fun for me. So that would leave, that would leave wolves versus grizzlies, which we're actually going to see this week on Thursday night. And the NBA would put on Discovery Channel. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah. It is one of those Edwards-Marrant things. And they have met each other in the playoffs prior to. Yeah, they have.

Yeah. They have played a couple years ago. in the playoffs. And look, the Kings or the Mavs are dangerous for any of these teams. Not really. I stand by that. I would say in a play-in situation. I stand by that for one game.

You don't have to beat them. For one game. Yes. For one game, punchers' chance. But in a seven-game series, they're gentlemen sweep at best. Oh, no, no, no, no. If either one of those teams wins the eight-seed, they will get crushed. Yeah.

Crush. The Mabs would at least make. win a game. Maybe. I can't see it. Well, just Anthony Davis has 3820 or whatever. I mean, they might. But I mean, did you see what, I mean, look, you see what the Mavs, what happened to them when they tried to play the Clippers this weekend?

I mean, just. They're back to back. Thrown in the garbage bin. And it was back to back games, back to back nights, right? Tough. And there's a. Smoked in both. So I'm looking at the schedule.

And, you know, I'm in. I'm a Knicks supporter. And this is one of the most interesting thing that's happening towards the end of the season. We have so much focus on the Western Conference because there is so much drama and so much volatility there. But the Bucks Pistons are basically having like a playoff series at the end of the season, hopefully for the five seed. That's a good, very well go.

That back-to-back games decide who's the five-seat and who's the six seat. who's playing Pacers and who's playing as a as a Knicks guy you would much rather see Detroit not even close not anyone that's not even a question it's not even a question not even a question so you want nothing to do with Janice and Tentacoupo Janus Tentacoupo or Cade Cunningham I'll take Kate Cunningham in his first playoff game I think they have won twice in the garden haven't they whatever the Knicks haven't beat anybody good all year long you're out of phrase you're not under afraid. You're out of afraid. All right. So, I guess you would have Oklahoma City against the

Warriors. I would have them against the club. I just think it would be fun. And I want Houston Warriors. And then we get Lakers Nuggets and then we would get T. Wolves Grizzlies. Because there's an interesting. If we're just facing it on who's the eight teams right now and we're not throwing one to play a team. I didn't expect the Lakers to sort of like have the three seed.

And they mathematically do not, but it's likely they will be the three seed. And there is a scenario in which we get OKC Lakers Western Conference Finals. Now there's a million battles to be had before that. But I didn't really expect them to be like solidly on the other side of the bracket from the thunder, which makes things very interesting. It would be crazy if you're talking about like if it played out the way you had it instead of the way I had it, that that would lead to Oklahoma City having to beat the Warriors. and Steph and then the Lakers and LeBron back to back.

There's no greater right of passage for a young team than that. No, they'd have to beat the Warriors and then whoever wins the four, five, and then LeBron. But you would have. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no. Okay, so you would have Lakers as three six. So it would actually be.

Lakers are in the three six. I mean, listen, who knows, the league is weird. Things happen. But I think the Lakers going to end up in the three. I think you're probably right. On the, on the Easter conference side, the only thing that particular, makes a huge difference is who that Nix opponent is.

We know the Cavs are one. We know the Celtics are two. We know the Nix are three. And so now we're just, which gives us, you're rooting for it to be Pacer's Bucks. And I actually think from a viewing experience, Pacer's Bucks as the four or five

would be the most fun. And they've got smoke against each other. You remember Halliburton doing the Dame time thing last year? and like they got smoke against each other. So then it would be Nick's Pistons and then I guess Celtics Orlando and Cavs versus, boy, God. If we're trying to get people to get into the Cavs,

putting them up against Atlanta or Chicago. It's going to be Cavs. Atlanta. Cabs Atlanta. But here's the thing. Maybe Miami could win a couple games. Here's my question, Verno, about the Eastern Conference, right? Okay.

Doesn't it just feel like that three through eight are just logs being thrown into wood chippers chippers round after round against the calves in the Celtics? See, I just feel like we're just taking logs and just putting them in the wood chippers that are the calves in the Celtics. That's what it feels like to me. I am higher on your team than you are. Oh, yeah, I'm out. I'm out. I will tell you that when I went and you remember one of the things that was a bystander of me looking up those Houston stats over the course of the last like, you know, month of the season and what has happened is when I looked through those and I told you that the Clippers had a plus 14.9 net rating. Number two was Houston.

Number three was Boston. Number four was Oklahoma City. None of these surprised you at all. five was Minnesota. And when I was clicking through on a defensive rating, and I found out that the Clippers had the number one and Houston had the number two over the course of the last month, the Knicks are sixth over the course of the last month in defensive rating.

So that has gone up extraordinarily. But when you make these comps, what is the fixed variable in the equation is the amount of time, the last month. But what is the true variable in the equation is the opponents. Fair enough. You know what I mean? So, and I think that if there was some sort of adjustments, I don't think the Knicks would be that high.

Okay. Fair enough. Well, look, you're always the mercy of their schedule for the numbers, right? Yeah, you can only play what's in front of you. Okay. And look, I think we would be surprised. The only one in the Eastern Conference, while the Western Conference is absolutely unbelievable, the only one in the Eastern Conference that we're sitting back and wondering on is who wins

four or five. I also think seven eight's kind of interesting just to like see if someone can just like. No, no, no, no. I'm talking about, but we don't think that either we don't think that any of the top three seeds are in peril of getting knocked off. And that is what is much different about the two conferences, right? We would be surprised if Cleveland, Boston, and New York are not playing second round basketball.

So we're only wondering is it Pacers or Bucks. And then either one of those is a fun. match up against the calves in the second round, if that is the way it shakes out. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Awards to be decided.

Okay, so just a quick peruse of me looking at the odds. There's very few that are left to be decided, at least betting-wise. SGA is going to run away with the MVP according to the odds. Castle's going to run away with rookie of the year according to the odds. most improved Dyson Daniels is evidently going to run away with that award I like that. It had been

Kate Cunningham was a lot of the talk throughout the year. But then once JJ Reddick sort of said what he said to the idea I'll just change the narrative changes in my mind and again like this is not a truly defined award. I much prefer the guy that came out of nowhere to be an impactful

player that's starting in a rotation than like when Jha won it that year. But it was like, it's like, what are we talking about? That was, remember when he wanted, when he accepted it, he's like, I'm going to give this to Desmond Bain? Like, I think that JJ Redick does have a point that while this, the rules are not defined on this award, I prefer it when it's Dyson Daniels, the guy who couldn't even get on the floor for the Pelicans and is thrown into the Junete Murray trade turns into like the defensive player of the year candidate. I agree with you. I also thought it was quite funny on the JJ front.

And I'm not a JJ redicator. But you know he's a member of media, correct? Like you remember that. Yeah, I worked with him. Saw him around the office. Great hanged. Great guy. People went and looked up who he voted for.

He had votes. Oh, he had votes? Yeah. And he voted for former lottery picks too. So I mean, I think some of those were more cut and dry than others years. He's just making the case for Austin Reeves. That's what it sounded like.

But I wouldn't, but I would even say that Reeves hasn't made a leaf like Dyson Daniels has made. And this also feels like, hey, we're not going to give Dyson Daniels defensive player of the year. So we got to give him something good. Yeah. It was also like, let's not forget that they were like running the offense through Reeves in the playoffs before.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, come on. Dremont, um, heavy favorite for defensive player of the year. But I think this one is the one that could actually. go a bunch of different ways. I don't think that this is decided at all. I think that there are going to be media members. I mean, you listen to Bill Talk and you listen to Rosillo Talk.

I don't know if they're going to be voted for Draymond. And I mean, that's at least two of the voters that have pretty big platforms. And I don't know if they're going to vote for Mowgli, Dort, Daniels. You know, obviously, Alman Thompson made a big impact. But I told you a month ago, I thought that there would be a bigger. wave for Dort given the amount of the statistical relevance of what he has done against elite level opponents and their shooting percentages. And also that if I were just saying who is the best defender on the best defensive team, that that in a year where it's all spaced out

seems to be a realistic thing that could happen. Same way that it happened with Marcus Smartic few years ago. Though we do not typically give it to perimeter defenders, we looked and we said, who's the best defensive player on the best defensive team? Here's the award.

And I thought that would happen with Dort. Obviously, bad weekend for this to happen when they lost to Houston and then they lost to, you know, the Lakers in two very high-profile games,

especially when everybody's thinking about awards. Because it's crazy. Like, I'm at Thompson. if he was not going to make first team all defense, made it because that became on top of mind. Anybody that was watching him this weekend was like, oh, he has to be.

Oh, yeah. He has to be. And honestly, if I just needed a stop to save my life, I would go with Dort Thompson and probably Daniels. Those would be the three guys. Let me do a little wordplay for you. Just bear with me for a second.

Okay. the difference in perception, it's a difference in perception between Draymond Green's defense and Dorts defense. And the word I'm going to use is volume. And volume has two meanings. Lou Dort has a volume of defensive plays. He makes a lot of them and he's consistent

and he shuts down your best player and your offense has to find other ways to score around him like a great shutdown cornerback. I'm just not going to look that direction, right? That's what Lou Dort does to you. What Dreymond Green does is the other meaning of volume. He makes loud defensive plays. That's right.

At the end of games, and he'll point him out, he'll celebrate him, and he'll scream, and they'll make the highlight real. It's like, that's the difference. And then he'll campaign for himself is like, is Draymond Green makes great defensive plays and then makes loud defensive plays. Whereas Lou Dort is just constantly shutting down whoever he's going. and it's not going to make the highlight real. So I would say that it's really just a matter of perception that I agree.

I think Lou Dort is a better basketball defender, but I understand that Dremont Green makes louder defensive plays at the end of games that can sort of give him this perception of being a better defensive player. And I also think that you and I are probably on the same page that if you told me you voted for Draymond Green or Evan Mobley or Dyson Daniels or Lou Dord or there's there's no wrong answer You can focus on us for MVP this year. I'm sure. There is no.

I'm saying there is no obvious this guy should win defensive player of the year. They all have arguments. Do you know what I really appreciate though? What I really appreciate is Rudy Gober is not in the conversation. That's what I really appreciate it. I'm so tired of him getting it. And then getting targeted in the playoffs. Fair enough.

All right. So we've got a lot to look forward to the rest of this week. We've got Celtics at Knicks. We've got Lakers at Thunder, which has gotten mowed down because of that's sitting out. So here's a question. I looked at tickets for Celtics Nix. And then I said to myself, like, am I really going to get Celtics if I go to this game? You're not.

Like, they're both kind of locked into their spots. And I was like, let me not spend $300 to go to M. I'd probably just spend $300 to watch them. And both probably have coaches that don't want to show their. Exactly. Because they know they're going to meet up in two, three. In the second round, exactly. So that's why I decided that that's not even a game worth paying attention to, but continue.

Hawks Magic could be very good simply because it could be a preview of what we see. They might play a life and death game with their season on the line coming up. But I was also looking at this game thinking like, is this kind of like the Celtics and the Knicks? where it's like, we're probably going to see each other. I think they got to worry enough about the heat that maybe not, though. Okay. Right? We'll see.

But like these games that seem so big on paper. Oh, you're right. Like tonight's Lakers Thunder game, sometimes it's like, oh, it can end up being a dud. Oh, no. But look, we've got to look towards Wednesday is unbelievable because we have the Luca return to Dallas and we have the rockets and the clippers. Like, you can't get back. better than that. And those are all going to matter.

Those are both going to matter. I don't know how to tell my rec league team why I didn't make the game. It's going to be tough. I mean, I guess you can. I mean, Luca Mavs is going to be fun. It's going to be fun. It's going to be

maybe the most strange experience that we have had. Like, when has a beloved, like to that level come back and it bit like maybe

maybe like when Wade went back to Miami after he didn't have stakes like this Wade didn't leave in his prime no I got you I'm saying there's nothing like this ever I'm saying a beloved guy that it wasn't his choice necessarily I can't think of anything I'm sure it's happened but I cannot think of anything

comparable to it's not no it's not comparable I'm just saying there are times where this has happened. I will tell you this. Like, Kareem in the Bucks, maybe? Kareem in the Bucks.

I will tell you this. He was not plaguing. He was not playing a year ago. But the ovation and the response that Smart got going back to Boston

was otherworldly. It was other. I mean, truly. They love him. They love. Barkley Sixers. Barkley Sixers comes to my

no. No, that ended. Badly. That ended badly. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. It is, there isn't, there isn't really anything like this. And if you're a MabS fan.

Not like this, though. Not where everybody had your frigging jersey. Everybody. If Luke, if the first possession, Luca hits a 30 foot step back, do they cheer? I don't even know how this works. There isn't, there is, there's no blueprint for this. There is no blueprint for how to behave. There's none.

Which is why we're going to watch it. Rockets Clippers is going to be great. And then on Thursday, we've got Nick's Pistons, which very well may be a playoff preview, a playoff preview, and Timberwolves Grizzlies, which both of those teams need a win desperately at the end of the season. Especially when the playoffs. The Grizzlies, like, listen, these are NBA basketball players and an NBA team. They know they're getting on a flight to Denver right after the game. Right. And they know it makes the stakes a little higher for this one.

The stakes are a little higher for this one. Real quick, before we get out of here, you wanted to mention a television show that you've watched? Well, no, no, no. I want to mention this is I've long been a mismatch fan and a Chris Vernon fan, and I follow you on social. And I don't know when it sort of hit my radar. But the Chris Vernon show, Masters Recaps, are one of the greatest things that you could ever experience in sports media currently.

And you're not going to say it, Chris, because you are yourself. But if you haven't seen them, you have to. Because it's chaos. It's absolute chaos. Chaos. We're around the same age.

When I tell you I am dreading, I am getting old Jacoby. I love, look, I love how many people love the bit. But it takes more out of me. than it takes more out of me to do those two days. By the time I'm done with the two days, I can't. And by the way, the first one is coming the night of,

I told you there's a late grizzlies sea wolves game that I've got to work at. And so I don't know if I'm going to have a voice by the time I get done with this. And the amount of energy that I expend through that stupid bit, It floors me. I used to be young. I used to be no sympathy for you whatsoever. I feel no sympathy for you whatsoever. I'm telling you, I'm dreading.

I am dreading. I don't care. Holding. I know you don't. I know you don't. Just tell me what's happening in Augusta. I'm going to. It's one of the best things in sports media.

I appreciate you saying that. It's so weird. There's going to be so many people in front of microphones talking about that stupid golf tournament, but there's going to be no one doing it like you. And I don't even know. how it started. What's like the, what's the, like the, the origin story of this bit? Okay. So it's so crazy. If you remember, I just want to say for anyone listening, like, he basically is just like, I don't know, I don't even know how to explain it. It's chaos.

We use hard in the paint everywhere. The whole idea was, it's the Waka, Flocka, Hardin the Paint beat, and you scream about the Masters for an hour. What, what we were going to do was the Masters, nothing is more buttoned up. and prim and proper than the masters, right? So this happened probably, I don't know, 10 years ago. And so the idea was nothing is more stick in the mud, prim and proper than the masters. Though I am a golf fan and I am a huge masters fan.

But like the whole idea is what is the most radical way that we could do masters updates? And the idea was if we put this behind a rap beat and then I just start yelling things over this rap beat. There is nothing more not like the masters. And what's weird is it's now kind of evolved that like there's a lot of people that grew up, like listening to rap, like an our age group,

listen to rap music and grew up like that. So at first, all the older people, they hate it. But now I've gotten into this mode where, you know, my peers, grew up listening to rap music and everything,

so it's not foreign. And they don't view it in the same way. It's hard to describe what the master's perception was like when we first started all of this, right? And how that has changed. There's a lot more influencers and YouTubers and all kinds. Like golf is younger and cooler than it was. There was nothing young and nothing cool about golf when we started it.

Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. And now there is a lot of like, there's streetware companies that do golf stuff and there's a lot of young people involved in it. Rapplers are golfing now. Like schoolboy Q has like a golf club. Correct. None of that was relevant at the time. We were just making fun of the fact that this is, nothing is more anti, nothing is more anti the way it is treated.

and the level of seriousness that it is treated with than a bunch of dressed up mascots and, you know, madness and makes it madness. It's absolutely it's wonderful. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. And low key, I watch it and I do find out what's going down in Augusta.

You will get the actual updates. You're going to know. You're going to find out if Shepleur is 300 or whatever. All right. Get to a, what's a TV show you want to talk about? The White Lotus had its finale on Sunday night. And there's been so much discussion and anticipation. I kind of love this when this happens when everybody that you know is watching the same show.

And every time someone comes over the house, we have a lot of visitors. We have a new baby. Every time someone comes over the house, we spend an hour just talking about the White Lotus and Rick and Chelsea and the blondes and all of this stuff. And before the show started, because I put it on the rundown, I was like, let's mention this quickly. I said, Chris, I assume you're not watching the White Lotus. Okay. So why would you assume that? Because we've never discussed it. And it's kind of all I've talked to anybody about for the past two months. Totally fair. You are right. Now, I will tell you that this weekend, there were horrible storms in Memphis so you couldn't go outside.

Oh, yeah. I saw the Kentucky flooding and stuff, yeah. All anybody talked about is White Lotus, White Lotus, White Lotus. White Lotus. white loaded. So I went and watched season one. I was like, all right. I went back and watched season one. And I will say, I got done with it. And I was like, again, I don't want to get an argument. I didn't know how I was supposed to feel. I was like, I didn't like anybody. And I don't know how I'm supposed to feel. And the way this all wrapped up is bizarre. I love that. Am I crazy here? That is the appropriate response. You're just being honest with yourself. That is the appropriate response. I didn't like anybody.

I didn't understand. I didn't understand. By the end of it, I didn't care about it. And I don't know how to feel. That's the experience. That's the experience. Is it supposed to make me feel better about myself? Is that the thing? Like, people watch it and go, my, that person's a dirt bag. That person's a dirt bag. That person's a dirt bag. Like, is it the enjoyment of feeling like you're not a dirt bag because these people are actually dirt bag? I don't, I don't know. I feel like a dirt bag just generally.

I can't watch a TV show and wash that stink off my soul. But I will say this about the conversation around the White Lotus is I'm just tired of everybody complaining about stuff that they love and watch. It's like, oh, the finale wasn't good enough. The finale wasn't good enough. I loved every second watching every episode multiple times. And I love that world. and I love being there.

And if one storyline didn't land the plane and we didn't get a perfect little bow on the end of the season, that doesn't bother me at all. Okay. Because it's better than not having the white lotus in my life. That's how I look at it. I'm easy.

Okay. But you know this. I think you're being contrarian on this. You know this. No what? There's no bigger critics of something than the people that love it the most. Okay?

Like, wrestling fans complain the most about wrestling. Star Wars fans complain the most about Star Wars. Bill Simmons fans complain the most about Bill Simmons. Right? Like, I mean, this is the way the world works. You know, Grizzly fans complain the most about the Grizzlies. Knicks fans complain the most about the Knicks. Like, this is the way it works, Jacoby.

The things that you are passionate about, the things you love, are the things that actually affect you the most. You are acting like, hey, why doesn't everybody just enjoy something? Like, that's not what then anytime you're passionate about something, you care about it. This is great because this is a great way to end the pod. It's really just a discussion about the human condition, which is what the White Lotus is. And I agree with you. You cannot hate something that you never loved.

It's impossible. Correct. To drum up the feeling of hate. which is so passionate and so strong, you must have had to switch at some point. And exploring these little nuances of the human experiences is what the White Lotus is about. And if you don't like it, then we're not friends.

Fair enough. To Kobe, I will talk to you later this week. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always, and we will reconvene on Friday. Must be 21 and over in present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 over and present in D.C. Got a gambling problem?

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