The Mismatch - Hawks and Knicks Swap Players, Dray’s Importance to the Dubs, and the Two Sides of All the Ben Simmons Talk

Episode Date: January 14, 2022

Verno and KOC react to the Knicks-Hawks trade involving Cam Reddish and Kevin Knox. They debate the low-risk move and discuss how Reddish can succeed in New York (05:49) before asking whether there is any hope left for Knox (11:58). The Grizzlies continue their tear across the league, beating the Timberwolves to extend their win streak to 11, and the guys take a closer look at the Wolves' roster (25:38). They also highlight Draymond Green’s importance to the Warriors after their blowout loss to the Bucks (30:05). Should the Warriors trade some of their young players and find impact players to extend their championship window? With Dame now out indefinitely, the guys discuss the next potential moves for the Blazers (46:28). Lastly, they debate whether all the Ben Simmons talk is tiring or fascinating (58:19). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Top MMA voices, Ariel Hohani, Chuck Mindenhall, and Patsy Carroll are live on the Spotify Greenroom app for every major MMA card with The Ringer MMA show. Here the guys react to weigh-ins in real time and find out what they think of the fights the moment the final card ends. Plus, when breaking MMA news happens, they'll be live to talk to you about it. And if you miss the green room show, you can hear it as a podcast anytime on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Miscatch. I'm Chris Varnan and joining me as he does every Friday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K., Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'clocker, Kevin O'clock, Kevin O'clock. Glenn. Kevin O. Conflict. Kevin O. Flesarian. Kevin. Oh, no. It's Friday. It is Friday. And we've got about a month until the trade deadline. But out of nowhere, we had a trade yesterday. The New York Knicks acquired Cam Reddish in a trade

with the Atlanta Hawks. The Knicks sent forward Kevin Knox and a 20-22 first round draft pick via the Charlotte Hornets to the Hawks for Reddish Solomon Hill, a 2025 second round pick. New York also waived Ryan Archie Diocono. All right. So Cam Reddish, who was once the 10th pick in the NBA draft, just a few years ago, 2019 draft, gets moved prior to the trade deadline. there is certainly a correlation between the arrival of DeAndre Hunter

back in the Atlanta lineup and this move, I think it's fair to say. You could draw a line between those two things. I was a little surprised at the reaction to this, to be honest. I think...

What was the reaction? That New York pulled one over on Atlanta. This is an amazing deal for New York. What is Atlanta doing? To me, it felt like a lot of people that saw Cam Reddish play really, really well in the playoffs last year upon his return, show real glimpses of promise. A couple 30-point games in late December 2, pretty recent.

And then, right. And so you see him when he's part of the highlights, but not necessarily aware that he's probably been their worst player this year on a team who is the most disappointing team in the entire NBA. He has the lowest net rating of any player that gets real minutes. I mean, they are actively worse with Cam Reddish on the floor than they are, you know, without him on the floor. And so that says something I don't want to put out all their failing,

at the feet of Cam Reddish. That's ridiculous. On the other hand, he hasn't been good. And I don't know, man, like to me, I would have real cause for pause making this deal because I know that there's always promise in the young players that were drafted in the top 10. And I'm not telling you that Cam Reddish is going to become a really good NBA player. But what I will tell you is he's not right now. and this guy in Atlanta, he's not a bozo, this Travis Schlink. And he's also somebody that's like been an assistant coach in the league. He's been a video coordinator in the league. He's worked with players in the league, you know, one-on-one.

And he's been a player personnel guy. This guy knows talent, all right? And if he doesn't want to pay this guy, If he doesn't want to, if he's giving up on this, you know, and not getting some kind of huge return for it, to me, that would be a real warning sign. It would. Because look, even if you are overpopulated at the wing position, you still try to resign guys like that as the asset so that you have that asset there and that maybe you can, if you want something different than that, you might. move it for what would fit better with your team. But to get such low return and to give up on the guy, at least for that organization, after three years, that to me would raise a gigantic red flag.

It just would because he would know him better than anybody else. I don't know. I don't know, man. I mean, I hope the kid finds his bearings and does well in New York. He doesn't seem like a Tibido player to me. But I guess we'll see. And it's not as easy as just saying, oh, you made this deal. Like you made this deal and you got to pay this dude.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely more of a complex deal for both sides than I think the Twitter, TV, radio reaction might have been where it was, like you said, the Knicks fleeced them. I don't necessarily agree with that. I mean, it's also important to note over at the athletic Chris Kirshner, the Atlanta Hogg's beatwriter there in front. Red Cats, who covers the Knicks, they reported that Reddish wanted out. I believe there's a separate report that Atlanta had tried dealing him during the draft or sometime last year. And that's true. That is true regarding Reddish. So that's part of it here. Clutch believes that Cam Reddish can have a bigger role elsewhere and flourish and grow more than he can next to Tray Young. And maybe he will. I mean, maybe he will. And that's what's going to play into

how we assess this trade over the course of time. Because right now, as of today, Atlanta is getting out of the possibility of having to pay reddish in one year when he can become a free agent or restricted free agent. Then New York next door giving up a mid to late first round pick. It will be a late first round pick because of the protections on that Hornets pick that Atlanta is receiving or could be, I should say, this year. They're getting out, they're losing a pick, but they're getting a guy who's been a really solid defensive player for years now who this season has become a good three-point shooter off the

catch. The concern with Reddish is back in high school before he went to Duke and he was playing with R.J. Barrett and Zion is people thought this was like a Paul George type of guy. Somebody who could get to the basket at 6-8 with fluidity could draw fouls and score inside. Reddish has been a poor interior finisher shooting below 50% at the rim in the half court according to Synergy. He does not handle contact well. He's very adverse to contact. When you watch him drive to the rim, he so often stops and hits turnaround fadeaway jumpers, a very low percentage look for even some of the better players in the league, especially for somebody like him. So with Reddish, he and his circle, you know, clutch, the agency might believe that there's higher upside there.

And maybe there is that he can tap into years from now. But he's nowhere near that part yet. And right now he's still looking like a 3-and-D guy with a questionable three-point shot off the catch. This year he's shooting in the high 30s. He's not shot in the high 30s anytime ever in the past. So this is either an outlier or it's the start of something new for him, which could be a good thing. So I like the gamble for the Knicks. I like them getting RJ Barrett and Cam Reddish together again for obvious reasons. Obviously, look, for this season, they didn't give up anything. I mean, so what? If you gave up, it's worth a fly. The question is going to be how we assess what they pay up in free agency and how much of their cap it takes up.

That's going to be the question of this is not a, we believe in this wholeheartedly, you know, amount of things that they gave up. They didn't give up. They didn't give, you know what I mean? Like if you gave up a bunch, then you would say they have a serious conviction about Cam Reddish. This is one of those. try it out. We didn't give up anything anyway. And if we don't, if we don't want to pay him a fortune in the off season, then it is what it is. We gave up the first round pick for a chance. The pick for what it's worst. It's top 18 protected this season. Charlotte's right on the border of that. It's top 16

protected in 2023, top 14 in 2024 and 2025. And then it becomes two seconds if they don't get up by 2025. So Atlanta at some point, maybe this season, maybe next season gets an additional first round pick. And my understanding is Atlanta is still big game hunting here. Atlanta is accumulating some picks. They want to be able to be in a position to make a big splash, whether that's Ben Simmons, whether that's somebody else. Atlanta still wants to consolidate all of their depth more, all of their picks and put it together for someone who can actually make them a championship contender. Atlanta's goal is to do that. With New York, I mean, I think you nailed it there, Chris, really.

I think for the Knicks, this is a one-year trial with Cam Reddish. And if he turns into something, maybe he's a guy that you want to have as a keeper long term. Maybe he's good enough where he himself has more value than that Charlotte pick for a sign and trade, something like that. Maybe you can flip him as part of another deal. There's incentive for both of these teams here, which I understand. But it's ultimately, though, when we assess whether who won this deal, it's going to come down to like how Cam Redis develops.

And whether he's like a soft interior finisher who is inconsistent from three. And like even defensively, he's so lean. There's certain matchups where you can't trust him in. What does he turn into as a score as a playmaker? That's the big question here. That's the gamble the Knicks are making. And the Hawks, Schlenk decided, you know what? He's not worth the investment.

And that does say something. It really does. Personality-wise, with Reddish, they didn't feel he was worth the investment. And on the court with his skills, they didn't feel he was worth the investment. Especially somebody that you spent such a high pick on. This isn't somebody that you didn't choose. The other guy in the Luca deal. That's what he is.

Yeah. He chose him. You know what I mean? But he did also want out, though. Again, like that's an important, it's an important, you know, factor here that he did want out for some time now. I'm always a little wary of guys that want out of good teams too. I mean, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, the agency is such a factor, though.

It really, it really is. I mean, Cam, Cam, Reddish, Cam is a quiet kid. Like, he's really quiet. And it wouldn't really surprise me one bit if, like, Cam, like, if he were, like, with a small-time agent, wouldn't have had the ability to be like, I want out. Cam's a really quiet person It keeps to himself

Well he has no leverage in terms of trade me Come on No I mean he's on it Exactly He has no leverage in that situation It's not like Atlanta's like Oh we better do something with him

Or this is going to be bad for us How about the other guy that's in that mix You know we say all the time The development is not It's not linear right Like you never know When these guys are going to pop any Tinge

hope in the in a Kevin Knox resurrection are you out? No, I missed on him so they're at the next and a whole bunch of other people. He's still only 22, but like what,

what has he shown in four years? In four years, Chris, did you see the stat that Dan Devine had in his article on the ringer? I can't believe you're bringing this up. I mean, I'm a fair guy. On its face, Dan wrote, this looks like a potential fleecing by New York.

After making 57 starts as a rookie for a terrible team under David Fisdale, Knox largely receded from view of the 312 players who have played at least 2,500 minutes in the NBA since the Knicks drafted him ninth in 2018. Knox ranked 311th in effective field goal percentage. Dead last on that list of the 312 players, fellow. former Nick lottery pick Frank Nillikina Yeesh Dan writes yeah

Frankie Frankie and Kev Knox 312 and 311 out of 312 players and affect the field goal percentage That's tough

That's rough man Like that's that's really rough for the Knicks Two years in a row That's almost impossible to pull off Yeah Yeah it really is I mean the truth is

Look if you shoot that badly, you usually don't get that many minutes. That's why it's so hard to be on that list. You know what I mean? At the bottom, like you don't get to play if you shoot that badly, typically.

But they gave both those guys a lot of minutes. Who do you think was 310? 310 on that list. Effective field goal percentage. And you had to play how many minutes? And also just pick a number for Cam Ranich. What number do you think Cam Ranich is? on that list.

Oh, I'd say, I would say he's below 250. He's definitely below 250. He's 304. Oh, my God. Cam Reddish is 304 out of 312. Jesus. Right behind Darius Basley, right ahead of Josh Okie. Darius basically had a big game last night against Brooklyn.

He probably moved ahead of Reddish. As sample size. Yeah, exactly. 310 is Dennis Smith Jr. Oh, that's unsurprisingly. I mean, like the bottom of this list, it's like Justice Winslow. It's Alfred Payton. It's like a lot of former lottery picks that those guys that get chances and opportunities that just have it like really clicked.

This is the benefit. You know, I might be older, but I still learn stuff regularly, Kevin. And when I saw this. You have just a sponge brain. When I saw the, no, it's funny you bring up that name because I was sitting there, I was sitting there in. samely hopeful about the Justice Winslow thing. It is not unlike this reddish thing. He's a little bit, you know, longer in the tooth.

He'd been around a little bit longer. But the same thing. It's like, man, he's just been injured. If he ever gets his opportunity, sometimes when he's played, he's been really good. He had some big playoff moments early in his career against Toronto, right? Where he played. He had some great, great times with Miami, dude.

did. And it's like, all right, you ain't giving up all that much. If it hits, it hits. And, you know, it should have been, it should have been for me. And everybody else that was the Grizzies Observer, a massive red flag that Miami was willing to give up on him. It should have been. That's a good organization. It's not run by dummies. And that's what I say about this slink guy. I'd be stunned if he just. gave up a future star. You know what I mean? Like he's not giving up on somebody he thinks is going to pop big. He did trade Luca. But it did get Trey. You know what I mean? He did get Trey.

I know, exactly. I mean, it's like tough to say. You could say he did trade Luca, but he is getting a 23-year-old point card averaging almost 30 points for a game, one of the best passers in the league. I mean, it's in a way, in a way, I'm saying that on behalf of the people listening who are thinking that. Yeah.

Well, I mean, there are a lot of people saying, How can you say this guy's smart when he gave up Luca? Like, there are people feeling that way. They've been in the East Finals. It's worked out okay for him. And I think with Atlanta, I mean, it's so strange. I mean, did you see his radio comments last week? We didn't talk about those.

We did talk about these on 92-9? Yeah, yeah, that's right. Now, on 92-9, I mean, it's just, it's very interesting. I mean, it's kind of a strange decision to be so open on the radio like that, you know. It's a market thing. I mean, it used to be like that. Obviously, look, I had a weekly segment with Chris Wallace for, I don't know, six, seven years. And there were people around the NBA that thought that was wild too.

Danny Ains talks in Boston. It did. He did radio with Boston. Danny Aange was another one of those guys who was very open about stuff. I mean, like, sometimes he would hide things, but at times, like, he would say things. And I remember, like, growing up listening to those interviews. And I was like, damn, like, Danny's honest. it's so different than the Patriots.

I mean, I don't know how well you know the Atlanta landscape, but if you're Travis Schlingk, that's a way that you get them to talk about the Hawks. They don't talk about the Hawks. You know what I'm saying? Like it's a marketing tactic in a way. Like you give him something that we can chew on and talk about it and be like,

oh, Schenck is bashing his team. But in reality, it's like to get their local radio stations to talk more about the Hawks and less about the Falcons, to let's about Georgia winning the national championship, right? Yeah. And that was the idea.

That was the idea once upon a time, you know, when I had the schedule a bit with the GM. I mean, they were winning 20-something games. Now, he didn't ditch me once they got good. But at that time, you know,

John Caliperi's running the city with the Memphis Tigers. They're going to the final four. They got Derek Gross. Nobody's talking about the Grizzlies. You know, it's just not even, it's not even a thing. And so, you know, I was.

I was talking about them. And, you know, his opinion was always, and some guys feel this way that are in the league, which is, you know, good or bad, at least, you know, we're being talked about. At least there's a level of relevance because there's nothing worse than being irrelevant. So I think that's why Schling does it in Atlanta. Because otherwise, they may do their entire afternoon radio show and never mention the Hawks, really. Like, it's just not, it's way down on the league. list. That's more of a pro sports town and then a college town, right? And when I say pro, I mean, NFL Braves. Braves just won the World Series, too. I mean, you're way down the pecking

order. You know what I mean? You got the Braves World Series, a Georgia national championship, and the Falcons, you know, with the new coach, you know, and their star receiver leaving, you know, third way into the season. And Cordell Patterson. I mean, that's just a, you know, know, it's not the same, there as it is everywhere else. So I think that's why he probably does that. Is there a player in the NBA that could undergo a transformation like Corderole Patterson has in the NFL? I mean, think about what he's turned into from what he was when he entered the NBA with the NFL with the Vikings. I mean, he's a running back now, more than a receiver. Is there a guy in the NBA that could, like, in a different, dramatically different role? Because I think

Cordero Patterson, he himself deserves a world of credit for finding a lane in the NFL to maximize his talents and coaches as well for transforming him into that. Like it's all a culmination together. It's usually guys that are just being used differently. I mean, the one that immediately stands out to me was how much differently Sabonis got used. You know, he was just shooting corner threes. I remember there was a stat his rookie year and it was like December. And he had to be. not been to the free throw line. It was like December. He was just running.

Pick and pop with Russell Westbrook. Yeah. And he was shooting corner threes and he wasn't any good at shooting threes. You know? And then he went and like all of a sudden he's, you know, DeMont de Sabonis. Last night, I texted you as I was at the Grizzlies Minnesota Timberwolves game. The Grizzly Street keeps on going. They are now at 11 games in a row.

They play against a Dallas Mavericks tonight. on national TV so everybody can watch that. I saw Minnesota in person last night. And look, the Grizzlies have kept on rocking no matter what they, no matter what has been thrown at them. That is the crazy thing about what has gone on with them even throughout this streak.

Kevin, at one point during the season, they were nine and ten, and that night, I did the post game show, and it was possibly the most depressed. I mean, I've been regarding a basketball team. They're 9 to 10. The Atlanta Hawks, interestingly enough, who we just talked about, beat them 132 to 100. And John Morant was literally carried off the court by two people.

And it was like, oh, my God, he just blew out his leg. this season is over. They weren't that good anyway. They were kind of, you know, mediocre 500 team. And now they've just lost John Morant. And since that moment, they are 21 and 4. They are now, they have now 30 wins. And they've lost four games since that night.

And most recently, they've won 11th straight. And they have, in the course of the 11th straight, Sometimes you can say, well, they're the benefactor because they're, you know, many times the teams that are the most successful ones, you can draw a straight line between them being the most healthy, right? Or losing the least guys to protocols or whatever it may be. In this 11-game win streak, just for perspective, they have used six different starting lineups. They have had 10 different starters. they have had 22 players that have logged minutes. They have had 41 games lost to health and safety protocols,

and they have had three different head coaches. That's in the 11 games. In the 11 games, they have had six different starting lineups, 10 different starters, 22 different players, 41 games lost to health and safety protocols, and three head coaches. and they've won them all. It is insanity, truly insanity,

what is going on with them. And at this point, you know, I am done putting ceilings on it. I really am. Because they are outstanding top to bottom. They've got a superstar. They've got the internal development of these guys. Jared Jackson's turned into one of the best, you know,

big defenders in the league. Bain's gotten awesome. I mean, they still don't have Dylan Brooks even in their lineup. He's out, you know. But they have kept on rocking. Watching Minnesota last night, Kevin, it will be sooner than later that they realize Anthony Edwards is their best player. I texted you before halftime,

and I said, this kid might go for 50 tonight. He had 25 at half. And then they wanted, it's just Delo and Kat, and then swing to the corner of Malik Beasley. or Jaden McDaniels three here and there. And it's like, yo, if you just gave the ball to that kid, nobody can stop him.

Nobody. There's nobody on this team that has any chance of dealing with him. And I thought it was a bailout of all bailout. I swear to you, Kevin, that kid could have had, you name the number. He is, let me express this to every NBA fan. If you get a chance, I know that's not like a hot ticket in your town.

If you get a chance to go see that team in person, go see it for him. Because I've talked a lot over the years about guys that you need to see in person to really fully appreciate. He is a monster. And he makes guards look so little. And he is so fast. And he is so strong. it's it really is like lebron ask in terms of that size speed you know ability and he's got some dog in him um my god i've seen him now a couple of times in person and every time i end up turning to

whoever sitting next me like jesus this is this is freaky like you just don't see guys like him. You really don't. And it's the damnedest thing. You can't blame DeLo and Kat for taking too many shots, though. It's like, Nasreed goes one for eight. Malik Beasley goes one for eight. And Beasley's had some major horrific games

for Minnesota as a guy who's supposed to be like a scoring specialist for them. And the contract he got, I mean, like some of the, like there's so many pieces on Minnesota that need to change around Edwards and around Cat and around Dilo. They got individual talent.

There's no way around it. They do a lot of my turn, your turn stuff, though. Totally. And last night's game, John Conchar, grabbing 17 rebounds. And John Conchar,

I mean, I think it's important to note, like him in college at Purdue Fort Worth, not regular Purdue. Wayne. Fort Wayne. Sorry. At Purdue Fort Wayne.

Look, you don't have to say sorry for anything. No one's ever even heard of it. I mean, they're the mastodons. I mean, The mast. You should see the videos of him in college.

It's like it was shot in 1972. I don't even know if he played a game with like a HD camera at it. It was four by three letterbox, right? Yes. It's unbelievable. No, well, so like with Conchard, though, in college, though, at Purdue, Fort Wayne, he was a guy that just like stacked up numbers. Like it was like 20 points, 10 rebounds, five assists.

Like he was that type of guy. Like every night, night in, night out as an upperclassman. And what I'm getting at is here is it's not abnormal for John Conchard to grab a lot of rebounds. However, in the NBA, I thought in last night's game, there were so many instances in which he made an effort to go for the ball and the other team did not. Like it was as simple as that. He made an effort to go for it and they didn't box out. they didn't put a body on him. They just stood around waiting.

And that goes on Edwards. That goes on Beasley. That goes on DeLo. That goes on everybody on that team. There was no effort. And I thought it was piss poor to watch last night. And John Car Char, like, we said it. We got tweeted at this yesterday.

John Carth, Ganchar has heart. He wants it more than anybody else. And last night's game, like he did times 100 over Minnesota. It was crazy to watch. Well, and he's not a novelty act. This guy is. Oh, no. He's for real.

He is a fantastic player. Good role player, man. Hey, over the last 20 games, you ready for this? He has shot 65% from three. Which is unsustainable, but it's not like, again, is it? It's not like, he shot over 40% from three at Purdue Fort Wayne in four years.

It's not like he can't shoot. The question with Conchard coming in is like, athletically how is he going to hang and he can hang oh he's an athlete he can hang he i mean look his 17th rebound was a putback done i mean he's not he's not he's not he's not some uh like i said novelty act this guy is a real player who they have developed and has turned into somebody that can really flip a game for you and he he has always been a great rebounder always um even when he played in the G League. He at one point was leading the league in rebounding at his size.

And part of it last night was Minnesota plays four out so much, including their big guys. Their big guys aren't in there to grab a rebound. So you got a lot of long rebounds. He's the guy that goes after him and he's got a knack for it. Like these guys, some of them, you know, rebounding in many cases, there's some guys that are just, they've really got an innate sense for, where that ball bounces off the rim and or they practice where that ball bounces off the rim. They look at it.

They see the shot going up. They know where that ball is going. And he is constantly in the mix. But they have kept on rolling. They had just beaten prior to that, the Warriors who I saw. And the thing that I was, the Warriors went and got smoked by Milwaukee last night. And I wasn't all that surprised. You know, I know a lot of people were like,

wow, Milwaukee's really putting it on the Warriors. And it's simply because I had just seen the Warriors, man, I'll tell you, Kev, when you see them, even with Clayback, you realize how essential Dremont is to what they do. Critical, you know. Don't underrate Dremont Green.

For both of those guys, for both of them. He's basically their point guard. And the other thing is Curry's the only other guy that can create anything for anybody. Clay's never really been a create the shot for somebody else guy. And so now you've got all that on Curry. And so instead of that moment where Curry comes down, you pressure him, he throws it to Draymond at the top of the key. Now Draymond initiates the offense.

With that not being available for then Curry and Clay to just start running around screens and cut into the basket and everything. else. It's, it is a tough, it's tough sledding for them, for sure. Is this a need? Is this like, let's, let's say the Warriors are in a playoff series and Draymond turns his ankle and he misses two games in the playoffs. Is this a need for Golden State to address ahead of the deadline, finding somebody who's worthy of handling the ball? I mean, it would be, it would be certainly nice to have somebody that not can replicate that, but could do it a little bit. You know, they try Looney doing it. Obviously, this was a big problem with Wiseman last year.

And I'm going to get to him in a moment because it looks like they may not have him back in any short amount of time. But that's not what he does. It's just like if that's how you're going to function at your best, it would behoothe you to have somebody else that can. And I think that's what they wanted with somebody like Iguodala. But if you could find, you know, somebody that can make the passes that you could throw the ball to and not necessarily be Draymond Green, but can at least be a facilitator from the elbow, I think certainly it would be something I would look for. I mean, I just don't think that they have to have Draymond.

They have to. Offense and defense. They have to have it. Yeah. I mean, it's tough here because with Golden State, you know, they're in a position here where they are a championship contender as is, right? As is. And you get all these young guys, comminga, James Wiseman, you know, he underwent that secret second author scrawpet surgery on his knee in December. And that's why it's such an extended absence. They got moody as well. They have some youth. Jordan Poole, even a young play. who could have value. You could make the argument that Goal and State should trade in some of these guys to try to get somebody who can be that other ball handler, that other shot creator for you, for support to make them even more lethal offensively, if that's even possible. I think that's something for Goal and State to think about. The problem is, is who?

Who? Who would that even be? Like, who is it? I mean, Bradley Beal, as far as I understand, like it seems like he'll likely stay in Washington. I don't expect him to make a trade demand ahead of the deadline. And if that were to happen, I guess maybe, you know, and you know what?

And maybe you don't even try to replicate the Draymond thing, but if you can find another guy that can playmate, just somebody else that can make some plays off the ball, because it's not what we get says. How about Ben Simmons? Chris? What about Ben Simmons in the Gary Payton the second role? What if you put Ben Simmons in the role of the guy who is,

Peyton cuts, screens, he's a great defender. He's hitting spot-up threes. What if Ben Simmons fully embraces... You don't have anything to give up unless you want to make it a three-team deal. Well, I'm just, I'm speaking theoretically. Let's say it is a three-way deal. I'm just saying, like, for the player you have your eyes on,

if your goal and say, who is it that you're like, we need this other ball handler. Is it Simmons? Is it Beal? Is it somebody worse than that? Look, I'm already $100 billion into the luxury tax. I'm trying to find. at the margins.

You know what I mean? I'm trying to find somebody that can make some plays. I don't think it has to be somebody devastating. I don't think it needs to be somebody that's like of that caliber, like an all NBA type performer.

Just somebody that can have the ball in their hands and make other people better. You know what I mean? Driving dish, run a high pick and roll. All these like, you know, again, just somebody else that can run that. I can come and set you a high screen.

I can come off it and I can either shoot it or I can throw it to you in the corner and you can knock down a shot. Somebody, it could just be a pure point guard. You know? I don't think it needs to be somebody of exceptional talent. You've got all the shot makers. You got all the shot makers.

And again, if they've got Traymond in the fold, they're going to be devastating. I'm just talking about if there's anything, as you said, in order to withstand injury, ejection, whatever it comes about. Really?

And that kind of stuff happens. It could be anything. It changed the course of NBA history. I'll always believe that, the fact that he couldn't play. So it's happened before. We've seen it. We've seen it happen.

And that's why I'm really intrigued by the Ben Simmons angle for Golden State. It would have to be a three-way, like you said. You're not going to get Ben Simmons from Jonathan Kaminga and James Wiseman and Moses Moody. You're not going to get him that way.

It has to be those players go to a third team and then player X, Y, and Z goes to Philadelphia. That's how I would have to be. But I'm intrigued because Draymond, like, Ben Simmons can do the Draymond thing. But Ben Simmons could also do the Kevon Looney thing. He can also do the Gary Peyton the second thing. Like he could be put into different roles for Golden State and it can work. Like the Warriors have proven. They can accommodate anybody.

They can make anybody work. They made Andrew Wiggins until a put. potential all-star, Gary Payton, the second, a G-League into a critically important role player, they can make people work. And I think they need to seriously consider going for it all here. I know there's, like, incentive to having all this youth coming and shooting below 30% from three, below 40% from the field in the G-League. He's not ready right now. This team is competing for championships today. If you want to move off of that, if you want to try to find somebody, and I know that if you're talking about winning a championship today

or maybe even the next two to three years, you know, I don't know if they give him up, but when we were talking about a big that can, you know, struts a floor could also play make from that position. The Kevin Love thing is now like he's now like an asset. He just has. He's played himself into being an asset. That would be funny.

That would be really funny. He really has. He's played himself into being an asset. He's making too much money, though. That's the challenge. I'm aware. I'm aware. Again, I'm just talking about a type of player out there.

And then maybe something that could come off your book sooner than later. Because you're going to be stretched in anyway, even though they're making a billion dollars on every suite. I'm not going to cry poor for them. Let me ask, let me just tell you about the Wiseman thing. The Wiseman thing, as soon as I'm I saw that story yesterday about the surgery, which is really weird that it didn't get reported on, but that he had a cleanup done in December. It was flashbacks.

I just went through this last season, Kevin. And I told you this when he was getting the surgery with Jaron Jackson Jr. Now, obviously Jaron Jackson Jr. has made a full return. and has been as healthy as can be, knock on wood. Okay. But one of the things we talked about at the time was there are, I'm no injury expert, but I have access to them. My buddy Jeff Stott's in street clothes on Twitter who does an amazing job. Excellent work.

I talked to Jeff about this. So when Jared Jackson Jr. had his and then Wiseman had his. these are young players who are big guys and when you tear your meniscus you have the opportunity to do two different things you can either get it repaired or you can get it extracted right replaced so the issue with taking it out is the possible long-term effects right that you could when you're taking that out now you're taking out cartilage and that you could get some bone on bone as time goes on. And you could develop, you know, osteoarthritis, all manner of things, right? And so you really, you would be worried about that if you're talking about a 21-year-old

seven-footer. And both of these guys have had the same thing. And if there's good enough circulation around it, you can just repair it. Now, guys get meniscus tears. They come back after, you know, it's a very short about of time, all things considered, for going in and doing a might as surgery and then they come back and they're able to play. But they've gotten it removed. The repair is a long recovery. And then you have to keep checking on it. And so I think what they said was there was some like, you know, like basically they were doing a cleanup. Like if it, you know, once you do the repair, now if there's anything around it, anything that's bothering it, now they got to go back in and clean up around that. And when they were giving these short timelines back long,

ago. If you recall, I told you then. I said, I know what they're saying. I also know what a repair sounds like. And we just went through this a year ago. They said, Jared Jackson would be back in December. And then they said to be back in January. And then they said to be back in February. And next thing you know, it's like April, right? It's like right literally the very end of the season before he was ever in a uniform last year. And then. then he hadn't played basketball in the whole season and a whole, and the team's played without it for a whole season. And you're trying to find your way.

Same could be true of Wiseman, you know. And if they're saying that he had this cleanup, it was just their way of trying to let people know that's why he's not back yet. And what you hope is that they clean up whatever they found and that he's just going to be fine, you know, long term. Because they made the decision for the long term. anyway, originally, with the meniscus. But this will not be the last time that we've heard of this.

So if you hear of guys getting their meniscus repaired instead of replaced, it's a very long recovery. And it's typically longer than what they say, because there's usually something that comes up in regards to, you know. And I think they probably did right by the kid by getting it repaired. You know, the best way to explain it. as these guys explained to me is like the meniscus and that around it, that's like the shock absorbers for your knee. So you can understand.

Long term, now the more jumping I do, the more running I do, that could really be a problem for me down the road. And you don't want to mess around with 20 and 21 year olds, you know? So I'm hopeful he could come back, but I wouldn't bank on it. I wouldn't bank on Wiseman being able to be back in the fold. Yeah, I mean, especially the season. I mean, because, like, what he might not offer anything. This is, again, this is a team. I'm telling you, Gold State is a team.

They're competing for championships. Caminga, comminga, he can probably offer some, you know, potentially, you know, coming off the bench a little bit, Wiseman, if he, if he can offer anything. Moody has not shown that he can offer anything. Like, they, they have to seriously think about what can we get for our youth to further increase our odds of winning a championship. And they might not need to make a move. They might not need to, but they need to at least explore

every possibility that's out there. I think with them that that is an obvious thing, especially your point about when they don't have Dremont, they don't have anybody else who can create a shot. I think, I mean, we saw what the Bucks did to them last night. Well, Steph, Steph's the only one. Steph's the only one.

And Wesley Matthews and the Bucks collective defense did an outstanding job and defending and making things hard on Stefan Curry. I know like, you know, Steph just missed shots, this and that, blah, blah, blah. But the Bucks defense did make things very hard on him, particularly West Matthews. And this Bucks defense, they've been more aggressive this season, more blitzing, more hedging. Nikias Duncan had a great article about that over at Basketball News.com earlier this week. I mean, this team can shape shift and play different styles.

And Yannis very well might just be the MVP again. again like this buck's team i think the flip side of that game against the golden state last night is Milwaukee once again has shown that they have a legitimately serious chance of winning a back to back championship this team is strong and it could even get better if they're able to get brookelopez back from his back problem but bobby porters in the meantime has shown this team doesn't need to play drop pick and roll coverage with brookelopez they don't need to have that size out there, they can play different ways and still beat you. The other thing is this, Kev, you think about who the best teams in the Western

Conference are right now? Who's got the matchup to even make life hard on him? I don't know if anybody can. You know what I mean? I get it. There's probably not somebody in the universe that can do that. But, I mean, again, like when you say, okay, who could stop Janus from absolutely destroying them like he did Phoenix in the finals last year, it's hard to find, you know,

it's hard to find that guy that you think is going to be able to stop this guy from killing you on any team, you know, so when you've got that as a weapon in your arsenal, that's the other thing too. If you can get through the east, there might be some teams in the east that are actually better equipped, you know, so you might have to count on that if you're a Western conference team. Somebody picking him off in the east, whether it's a, you know, a bam out of bio, or whether it's

an M.B. They're, you know, one of those guys. Because in the West, I'm not so sure that there's a great matchup for that one, you know, for him to just not go supernova. We had said, what was the last show? Like the West, man, this could get a lot, a lot

better. We're talking about Wiseman coming back to the Warriors. We were talking about maybe we'll see what happens with Lillard and how they try to build around that. We talked about Kauai and him coming back. And I swear, since the last show, Wiseman, no idea. There's that report that Paul George's elbow is not coming back right and he may get surgery and be done for the year. So that throws them out.

And too bad for the clippers, they don't have their first round pick. It's unprotected going to OKC. There's no reason for them to lose. And they might be trading people too. Like they might be trading the Marcus Morris of the world. Well, and they're going the wrong way fast already. That's without, you know, hearing the Paul George news. And, you know, I think we thought that his absence wasn't going to be nearly as severe as what it could be now.

And then you have the Liller thing. Since we last spoke, it appears like we may not see Damien Liller play basketball the rest of this season. and you wrote an article about this and I think that every observer of the NBA realizes that that run, that time with what they had going in Portland that is over and they expect the sell-off and the rebuild around Damien Lillard

and not like a rebuild where you go and get draft picks and start all over, but rather, okay, we have this centerpiece. How do we want to build out around it on the fly, altering our lineup by swapping out what we have for whatever we're going to try next? So kind of walk me through. I know you had to think about this a lot in order to write the article, but upon the news that we're not going to see Damien Lillard,

they got a lot of choices to make and new guys running the show there. That was in my Monday column with seven observations, and it was a fifth one on there for anybody who wants to read it. It came out like a couple days before this dame news came out about the surgery. And now it's become more serious. Yeah, like just replaced Mike's with did get surgery and like the article still stands the same. I mean, basically like my point in the article is like the best path forward for them is to lose games this season. to get higher draft odds, it's to reshuffle the deck, it's to trade a Nerkich, a Covington, possibly a C.J. McCollum, even the Ben McNamore for that matter, and reshuffle the deck here

in a way that sets you up for a better team around Lillard next season. Because like I said earlier, in regards to Bradley Bale, there's no indication that Beale wants out of Washington. There's still no indication that Lillard wants out of Portland. So if you're a Portland, you have the superstar signed long term that is committed to your franchise despite all the crap this past year. It's their responsibility to build the proper team around him when you have a player of his caliber. This is the situation you're in. Unless you decide to blow it up entirely, I don't think that's the smartest thing to do for Portland in their given situation. Reshuffle the deck. Get worse this season. Get higher draft odds. And you know what? Maybe on lottery

night, you win it. You get the number one or number two pick. I had some people in my mentions responding about that saying the Blazers and with Dame in his early 30s can't be patient for a prospect to develop. Well, two things, two responses to that. A, just because you have a high pick doesn't mean you keep it. You could use it in trades. It positions you to be flexible. And if you do keep that player, you also do need to think about life after Lillard. And I think for the Portland Blazers franchise here, they are in a position now where it is it is a major silver lining in this waste of a season and this disappointing, underwhelming, frustrating season that now, with Lillard being out for at least five to six weeks,

likely longer considering where that would put him when he gets re-evaluated. You know how these things are. He's going to get re-evaluated in six weeks. And then they're going to say he's going get re-evaluated in two more weeks and then it's late March and then they're going to say he's shut down for the rest of the season. That's what's going to happen. This has been a problem since the Olympics. Yeah, no kidding. I'd be

shocked if Damien Luller plays another game this season. I would be shocked. Just based off the timeline, logically it doesn't make sense, but for Portland here, reshuffle the deck and get higher draft odds and you put yourself in a position where you know what, if an opportunity

becomes available for Star Trek, or a great player and you have the number three pick, you might be the team that can go get that guy. And then you suddenly might have a team that looks really, really great around Damien Lord. Change can happen fast. And for Portland, this is the best path forward. Do you think that if we don't see,

if Paul George gets the surgery, all right, let's just say it doesn't heal right? I think it was Jake Fisher that was reporting on this. it doesn't heal right. He might get the surgery. So let's say he does. At that point, do you think that that rules out a Kauai return?

Do you think Kauai still would come back even if Paul's... No, no, no, no. The Kauai will only come back if the Clippers feel like they can win a championship. Then Kauai could come back. But if Ball George is out for the rest of the season 100%, Kauai's not coming back either. If he told me they can hold down the fort, you know, Until Kauai Leonard comes back, well, I mean, there's still,

you're still a team that, you know, was able to win without Kauai Leonard last year in the playoffs. So it stands to reason they might be able to win at least beat somebody in the first round if Kauai Leonard is, you know, top five, 10 player in the NBA, Kauai Leonard again. But it's fascinating to think about, you know, whether, they're just a write off completely. Because they wouldn't be... They really might be... I mean, they wouldn't be if you told me

that Kauai would still come back. But if Paul George says I'm getting surgery and then that rules out Kauai, then, you know, that's the end of that. And we don't even have to think about them being a threat. I mean, look, though, with the clippers, they're in a...

It's a different position than what the Blazers are in. But it's similar in the sense that the clippers need to use this season to set up for next season in the year after that. Like, how do you maximize Paul George and Kaui Leonard when they're healthy for the start of the season and you enter the year with legitimate championship hopes? And also Jake Fisher had in that report about, you know, the potential surgery is the potential for them to be sellers too.

And I've heard the same thing where whether it's guys like Marcus Morris or Sergei Bacup or Reggie Jackson or Eric Bledsoe, the clippers are a team to monitor here. Canard. When it comes to Conard for that matter, you. You're right. I mean, the Clippers are a team to watch to be sellers because, again, we just said it earlier. OKC has all of their picks, all of them. If the Clippers bought them out this year, they don't benefit.

Thunder get that pick. So for the Clippers, they need to restock their asset cupboard. They don't have anything. It's empty right now. And if they're able to get something for Morris, for Bledso, for Bresow, for Bres, even Btoom, for that matter, they get to really think about that and come back next season

with a totally different-looking roster because the mix right now with their veterans is not effective. It's fascinating because that is, that's two different teams, Kevin, that I do think, as you say, if we look at it and we say Portland is a seller and we say the clippers are a seller,

both of those teams were built to win right now. So they are flooded with, veterans that can help you win at the highest level. Right. Now, maybe not as a collection. It's not good enough, right? But for somebody else. Yeah, but for somebody else,

there's a lot of guys on those teams. You know, it's not a, it's not a crap team sell-off. It's a team that's selling off simply because of their circumstances that have taken place where you've had these injuries and whatnot. But like all those different,

guys, you know, when you're talking about a Nerketeer, a Covington here, you know, a Luke Kahnardier, Marcus Morris, yeah. I mean, you could you could see veteran teams being out there being like, oh boy, we could really enhance ourselves

by adding, you know, this guy. Because you're not adding that whole roster. You're just getting to pick off one of them and say, this is how this guy fits with us. So it's interesting because it's like these two teams that probably fancied themselves as contenders or wanted to be contenders. They're not. So their sell-off is a lot different than a team that's just we're not achieving what we wanted to.

So we're selling off, you know, and just going to tank out and get draft picks. And I think the other factor to think about here, and we'll see how the trade market develops. Like, who are the names that are out there right now? Ben Simmons, Sabonis, Turner, those are probably the best names. There's a chance none of those three to get dealt. There's a chance. I mean, I think with Indiana, I bet on them moving Turner or Sabonis. They want two firsts for Miles Turner or a lottery pick.

Karis Lavert, the other name, he could get moved, but he's not like that level of player. Portland and L.A. can offer guys more in the Lavert category or slightly worse. Point being is that a contending team might end up giving a first for a role player. We've seen first round picks go for role players before. So I think there's a possibility here where the clippers and blazers are like, yeah, we'll take a first round pick, even if it's protected or a future pick for one of those guys. It has value.

I wonder if, and I had not thought about this in conjunction with, then we can wrap this up with what we started the pod with. That Cam Reddish deal. So when you and I spoke on Tuesday, we talked a lot about. the stories that had come out regarding Ben Simmons in Atlanta and the irony that was involved with that. And with giving up Solomon Hill, who was one of the expirings in that deal, and with giving up Cam Reddish, who was one of the pieces that was spoken about in the deal, you do wonder if that ship has sailed regarding Atlanta and Ben Simmons because of that

deal that took place yesterday because no longer can Cam Reddish the promising young player, you know, that was going to come in the deal outside of, of course, John Collins. But you needed somebody to be really high on Reddish, whether that was the Sixers or a third team. And that component of, you know, if he was part of what you were going to throw in in a deal, that's now gone. That's with the Knicks. And I don't know. Maybe you kind of wonder if that was even part of why this deal, besides DeAndre Hunter coming back, part of why that deal happened when it did, because it was like, all right, we're not doing the Philly thing.

So now let's just figure out where we're moving this kid and the Nix. And unless Philly, unless Philly's like we don't want Cameranish. Which would be understandable. It's possible. I mean, if you don't have a conviction in him, he ain't giving up anything good. And that's exactly what the Nix did. They don't have to have a conviction.

They can test it out. And if it doesn't work and they don't pay him, no big deal. But if you're going to be giving up a lot, which giving up an all-NBA performer is a lot, you better think that we're getting a future star here, you know, in the deal. Because that's, I mean, you certainly wouldn't just let him walk. You'd pay him. And you'd have the conviction that we would be willing to pay him in the offseason. Are you sick of talking about Ben Simmons at all for him?

I'm not. I'm fascinated by this. It's a story. It's a big story when one of the top players of the NBA is not playing and his team is a contender. And his, it is going to change things. You're going to change everything. The ripple effects could reach every team. Massively.

Did you see that? By the way, did you see that story that came out about how he was going to need a month? Did you see that? To ramp back up? Yes, I was like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? If you read it, it sounds like the, you know, don't worry about, like his mental health issues that they say, those are going to clear up. Don't worry about that.

Oh, yeah. I think Sam, Sam over at the athletic mentioned the ramp up period. Then Woj, the ESPN had the line in there where he said, Rich Paul told the Sixers, that Simmons mental health hurdles continue to preclude him from a return to play with the team and the desire for a trade out of Philadelphia remains in place sources told Woj. But then he would be okay if he's no, no, no, but don't worry if you're a team trading for him because the mental health things are going to go away. It's related to the Philly thing.

Yes, it was, yeah, exactly. Oh, my God. Like, are you serious? You shouldn't be dicking around with the mental health issue like this, but whatever. And then that's my opinion. And then on the other side, to ramp up for a month, what are you been doing? Like, why am I, bro, we ain't got that much time left.

I'm trading for your ass and you need a month. It's crazy. I didn't know what that. Was that a scare tactic just so some, you know, team that's trying to make the playoffs doesn't trade for him? you know what I'm saying? Like if you're the Kings and you got the mandate to make the playoffs and you say to hell with it.

We're all in. We're throwing together this deal. We're getting Ben Simmons. And then it's like, well, we got to win like a lot of games the rest of the way. But then he says, actually not only did you trade these players, but I need a month. So like I can't help you for a month. So like that doesn't help me towards my goal of trying to be good right now. So the lines Sam had at the athletic was, accurate or not, this year's, this year's long pattern of Simmons struggling with confidence issues on the floor is seen by some interested teams as a separate matter from the mental health struggles that he is cited as his reason for staying off the court.

In terms of Simmons' eventual availability with a new team, the message has been sent that he would be ready to play after a few weeks of intensified conditioning and on-court action. So a few weeks, which, I mean, I guess that gets to your point about what has he been doing then? Well, and look, I want to explain there, but there's nobody that has not dealt with either mental health issues themselves. We are much more aware and we are much more open about it than ever before, whether it's professional sports or life, right? and whether it is people in my own life or whether it is people that you know that have dealt with this to me when when the narrative is don't worry about trading for him but he because he'll be fine and it's like which is it man like do i need to be truly concerned compassionate and empathetic about the situation you're in. And in the end, you don't want to be callous, but business is business.

And if you're going to be, you know what I mean? If you're going to be unable to play, if the seriousness of these mental health issues is going to preclude you from playing, then obviously I'm not going to be interested in helping trying to build my franchise around you. That's just, that's not being callous. That's the world we live in. And I don't want to be, non-empathetic to what he's going through. But when the message now was starting to come out, don't worry about that. To me, it minimizes, you know,

the mental health issues that so many people around have. Because that's when it feels like it's being used as the reason to not play, but that you will be able to play as long as you get me out of here. I mean, look, it's a complicated issue that we don't have every single detail to. That's why when I assess the situation, I kind of look at it from like a cold business standpoint. I don't care about the cause as much as what's going to actually happen here. Who are the teams, who are the teams that are going to step up and try to get a two-time all-NBA player, an All-Star, an excellent defender, a defensive player of the year candidate.

and is Daryl Morey in Philadelphia going to continue staying patient and essentially call a bluff and say, yeah, you'll come back if we take this to the deadline. You're not sitting out the whole year. That's where I look at. I tend to invest my thought and my energy

and into the business side of things here because that's what I know most about. That's what I have the most, you know, that's just the truth. Absolutely. We're not experts on this stuff, but the business side of this is what follows, Kevin. Yeah. You're not playing now because of this.

Why would you play for me? You know what I'm saying? The reason you're not playing basketball is because of this. Okay? We've got that out there. What would be different? Why would you be able to play for me? If you can't play basketball now,

why would you be able to play basketball in two weeks? That's the business of this, right? And that's what you're attempting to combat when you're putting out articles, you know, or having people write your side of the story. Yeah. And it's, this is why it is a topic and why I'm not tired of it because it's fascinating. I agree.

And also I think behind the scenes, there's so much Ben Simmons stuff that you hear about like, hey, this deal could be close. Hey, I heard this. Hey, I heard that.

Like, there is so much stuff floating out there in NBA circles. like it is crazy with Ben Simmons. Like this thing, like you said, this could have ripple effects across the league, like with whatever happens here. Whether he returns to Philly, gets traded by Philly,

depending on who he gets traded to, why the team is trading for him, if it's a team that feels like they're trading for him because they want to bolster their championship odds or if they're trading for him because they're so desperate to get into playoffs. We don't know. It's going to change everything.

Yes, and how teams, and players handle their business going forward. Yes. It could have an impact. You're right. Definitely. It really could. Definitely.

If they get a shitty deal for them, that people are going to say, all right, I ain't going to do it like Darrell did it. If they get a great deal for them, then they'll say, all right, I'm going to hold my ground like Darrell did.

Yeah. If he has to sit out, the next player might be like, well, shit, I ain't sitting out. You know what? Exactly. Or like,

what if it goes to the deadline? And like, then he's like, oh, my God, do I have to come back? Or do I just sit up the whole year? Then a player might be more hesitant to do it. You're right.

Yep. You don't know. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it's fascinating to say the least. I love the story, personally. I mean, I think it's, I can't wait to see what happens with this. I really can't wait. We've got a bunch of great games that are going on this weekend.

Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Everybody have a wonderful weekend. Kevin, I will talk to you next Tuesday. Looking forward to what. Have a great weekend.