The Mismatch - Hawks Fire Lloyd Pierce, Zion Williamson Is a Force of Nature, and the Nets Still Have Higher Levels to Reach

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

Verno and KOC get into all the factors that led to the Atlanta Hawks firing head coach Lloyd Pierce midseason and what this Hawks team’s ceiling can be moving forward (0:30). After the Pelicans' exhilarating win over the Jazz, they look into the roster and leadership decisions that still need to be made in order to maximize the Pelicans’ potential (14:00). Then they discuss Brooklyn slicing and dicing its way through the league over the past couple of weeks and the even higher levels of play the Nets can reach once Kevin Durant returns (28:30), what Julius Randle and RJ Barrett are doing for the Knicks (39:00), Malik Monk and LaMelo Ball’s production on the Hornets (51:00), and the steep decline of the Sacramento Kings (58:00). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Baseball season is right around the corner, and Jake Mintz and Jordan Schusterman will serve as your guides to the good, the bad, and the utterly bizarre corners of the baseball world on baseball barbecue. In the run-up to the season, they'll dive into the rabbit hole on some of their favorite fascinations, from the home run derby to baseball brawls and more. Once the MLB season returns, they'll break down the latest news and developments with their trademark wit and irreverence. Check out baseball barbecue on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon, and joining me as he does every Tuesday. from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Brien. Man, we have had a lot of stuff happens since we last spoke, including yesterday our second firing of an NBA coach. It was Lloyd Pierce, who is the coach of the Atlanta Hawks. Atlanta is 14 and 20. They've lost 11 of their last 16. games and these last couple losses have been the last straw and it is not going to be easy as they're going to move Nate McMillan over a seat because 12 of their next 15 games are on

the road so welcome to the gauntlet but they went ahead and did this before they even got to that point and so when the news was reported yesterday that pierce got fired what was your first reaction unfortunate victim of an ownership with too high of expectations for this team. I mean, Lloyd Pierce, like, you know, coaches need time to develop too, just like players do. And Lloyd Pierce, he definitely wasn't a perfect coach. I would say he was definitely not one of the better coaches in the NBA with his first chance to be a head coach, which is why so many Hawks fans wanted him gone, right? Hawks fans too have higher expectations for this team. And as a team should, when you have a guy like Trey Young who can,

really, you know, elevate what your team is. But ultimately, though, Chris, my first thought, my overall thought here is that this changes nothing. It changes nothing. Like maybe you help your team a little bit. Maybe like Nate McMillan is better with rotations. Maybe he's better with timing for when to call a timeout. Little things like that that bothered Hawks fans so much about Pierce. But the fact is, is that this is still a young team. It's a young team with guys who are underdeveloped. Cam Redish has not taking a leap in his second year. It's a young team with a bunch of guys who are negatives on the defensive end of the

floor, especially their best player, Trey Young, who is one of the worst defenders in basketball. It's a team that's been through injuries. It's a team that lacks continuity that made a bunch of changes this off season with a shortened training camp, a shortened preseason. This team just isn't there yet. And firing Pierce might be, you know, the best long-term thing to do. But in the short term here, I don't see it changing too much at all, Chris. about you. Well, one of the things that we've talked about a lot, and I bring this up all the time,

is when you have gone all in or you decide, you put a mandate down, we are going to try to be a playoff team. There is going to come a point when you do not, if you, if you do not, reach your expectations, that becomes a general manager versus the coach. And now you see who has the owner's ear. Because now, now, you see. As the disappointment continues, the coach is saying, look at my roster. Look at what was given to me. Look at the injuries I'm going through. And I don't know what their chain of command is.

I don't know if Lloyd Pierce has the owner's ear. But suffice to say, that would be his point of view, whereas the general manager says that, look, I built the right team. This is bad coaching. We've lost, we've had leads in 11 fourth quarters in 13th quarter. four games that we've lost. If we had a different coach, that would not be the case. And again, whether that's true or not, you know that's what he's saying. And Lloyd Pierce on the other hand to say, like, look, you got spent a lot of money in the

off season. Like, this would be me. If I'm Lloyd Pierce, I'd go to my saying. You spent a lot of money in the off season, right? I have gotten literally nothing out of Chris Dunn. Rondo, I don't know why you did this. Everybody in the free world knew, right? He didn't even turn it on during the regular season for the Lakers last year.

He turned it on when it came playoff time and was not good during the regular season for them. And now you're going to make him a bench player after he just won a title on a rat team. Okay. So that was just stupid. Gallo's been awful. And that ain't my fault. I didn't make Gallo awful. He's been bad for me.

And I lost. And then I lost Bogdanovich. Who was your other big money guy? He got hurt. Even their lottery pick, Okongru, missed the start of the season. And then I lost DeAndre Hunter. Yeah. Who was one of their best players.

Yes. And who has, who I have developed. And it looked like he was really taking a leap this year. Oh, and also you got John Collins who wants a big contract and has been involved in trade rumors throughout the year. And there's a good chance that he does get traded at some. point either this season or during the off season or during a restricted free agency and a sign and trade.

A lot change in there. The other thing he can say is, and this is true, I was reading this, Hollinger, wrote this article for the athletic, John Hollinger. He said he had this number in there. Atlanta outscores opponents by 6.5 points per 100 possessions this season when Tray Young, Clint Capella, and John Collins share the court. In the minutes Hunter played with those three, they were an impressive. plus 12.9.

Yes, these are small samples, but that should be taken with a grain of salt, but the eye test and other stats back up the idea that the core isn't the major problem here. And so, again, if you're Lloyd Pierce, you could go and you could say, look at our numbers when I've got my good players on the floor. Like, this is a roster thing.

You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I'm losing. You've handed me, Trey Young, John Collins at Clint Capella and D'And D'A Hunter, and I'm not winning with them. We're blowing people out when I've got those four. It's the rest of these guys that you signed, the guys that we brought in without, you know,

real training camp practices and everything, and two of them have been injured the whole time. So like what you really gave me last year's roster plus Clint Capella, and now I'm down D'Andre Hunter. So I don't have that either. And that's the thing. It's like firing Pierce may be the correct thing to do. It might be, but it does not solve the problems.

Yeah. You know, everything, everything you're detailing here. And this is your last straw if you're, if you're Travis Schlingke. It is. I mean, sure. Absolutely. We have already seen the general manager of the Phoenix Suns fired, passing on Luca. We've seen Lottie DeVoc drafting Marvin Bagley fired.

And then we could very well see next, you know, the GM who traded Luca for the Tray-Yan and Camerner's deal fired at some point if they don't turn this around. and I don't feel a lot of optimism that they will, which is, you know, you know, what Atlanta's done in the last couple of years, that Trey, Lucidillo, those guys are always going to be connected. But I don't hate what they've done. Like on paper, I like what they're building. I like the vision of what this could become.

And that's why I bring it back to ownership. This whole past year, it's been about, you know, there's expectations from ownership for this team to make the postseason. And that's one of the reasons why they go after Gallo, one of the reasons they go after Rhonda, And one of the reasons why they go after Chris Dunn and do the things that they did. But this team is just not ready for that stage yet. And Chris, this comes back to defense for me.

You just mentioned it. All they're blown fourth quarter leads. Atlanta, this season is 30th in the NBA and fourth quarter defensive rating. They allow 120.4 points per 100 possessions, which is worst in the NBA in the fourth quarter. This is a team that's just not ready to get stops. Well, and we'll see. time of the game. We know Nate McMillan cares greatly about that end of the court.

And through the three years that Lloyd Pierce has been there, there is no, there's no defending their defensive ratings. I mean, it's pathetic. And if you just want to say, hey, it's pathetic because of the personnel. Now Nate McMillan is going to move over. Look, we know this. Nate McMillan had real struggles in the playoffs and, you know, it had run its course in Indiana. Nate McMillan is a good basketball coach. And he might, he might be able.

You know, the East is so crazy, you might be able to turn it around. He might be able to get them going. It's pot. I'm just saying it's possible, right? I'm not, I'm not blaming everything on Louis Piers. There are only three and a half games back from the Knicks for the four C. Yes. I mean, like, it's so tight.

From the four C. Yeah, exactly. I don't want to. And right now, they're at the 12. So, like, it's tight. And I don't want to put it out of the realm of possibility that Nate McMillan could have them playing better basketball and winning some of those games that they've been losing in the fourth quarters, right? Atlanta fans, Atlanta fans would know better than me. And right, when you listen to their fans, they had turned.

And they wanted to know on. Yep. Yes. They had turned on him, right? So who am I to tell a fan base? They're not right about this. They are the ones. They're watching that team every single night.

And they think the coaching is lackluster. And so now we're about to find out, right? Sure. I think this, I think both can be true that they could have been the right decision, that Pierce, you know, in his first gig, first time as an NBA head coach, wasn't ready for the level of responsibility, especially maybe with a younger team like this that needs a guiding hand, a veteran coach like an A. Macmillan.

But also everything you said about the roster, Chris, I'm right there with you, 100%. That those are the true issues that need solving. And that'll take time. It'll take chance. changes to the personnel, trades, signings. It's also just going to take development, which happens over the course of time.

And with younger players getting better as they get older. So for this team, it's a mixture of those two things. Expectations were just too high, too soon for them, in my opinion. This is the part that I hate, Kevin. You know that I have ranted so many times for four years that we've been doing this podcast together about the whole tanking thing and what becomes that the guys that do it, they don't get to see it through.

They don't. They don't get to see it all the way through. And so the guy, you know, he wins 29 games or he wins 20 games. He wins 29 games. And so he took all these losses on his record. And then I do think it's, it is a different deal when you know you are consistently going to be non-competitive. And now all of a sudden it's time to be competitive.

And all those players, you know what I mean? as major players, they were losing those games too for you. And, you know, in the end, the truth is, Lloyd Pierce isn't going to get to see this through when it gets good. And Travis Link will probably not see it through when it gets good. And so it might, in the end, work out for the franchise because they got some of these lottery picks and they were able to build a team. But I do think that it's a disservice to guys like Lloyd Pierce, where you brought him in, And, you know, it's like, how are you supposed to build a culture? And how you're losing every night for two years.

That's a Popovich and Carlisle and some of those guys mentioned last night that you can't build a culture without continuity, without time. You can't build a culture, you know, by pulling the plug after a year and a half. And, you know, the other thing is this, Kim, you have to, you got to have confidence. You got to feel like you've got a safety net. and you know he did not feel that the whole year. He did not feel like they really believe in me. They're sticking with... Especially if they're bringing in McMillan.

Yeah, they're sticking with me. You know what I mean? This felt inevitable as soon as McMillan was hired. Yes. Yes. Because now they had that was their safety net. Exactly. If we move off with him.

But Pierce didn't. You know, and so tougher, tougher Lloyd Pierce, he will certainly land on his feet and he will be, he'll be added to his staff as soon as he wants to be added to his staff. And I do hope he gets another chance as a head coach in the league. I do. Because I think he was despite even if you think he was not good, he was dealt though a bad hand.

He just was. Delta bad hand and also like just a good guy. Yes. It's a good guy that people around the league really love and respect and see potential in him as like a leader. Oh, I'll show you here. People, you know, he was in Memphis. Here with the Grizzlies, people swore by Lloyd.

They love him. Love him. You know, there's nobody that knows him that does not love Lloyd Pierce. And so I hate this, you know what I mean? You never like to see bad things having a good guys. And he was, if they had their whole roster this year, I do think it's different. I really do. If he's got Bogdanovich, if he's got done, if Gallo doesn't play like a corpse half the time, you know.

Because when he wins with his good, like, obviously the numbers of the numbers when his good players are playing and they're playing together, you know. But that just didn't happen enough. Last night, I was so wildly entertained by the Pelicans Jazz game. That was a good one. I mean, okay. So first half was pretty good half and the jazz looked like the jazz. And then they come out in the third quarter. and the Pelicans just bomb them out and flip the game completely.

And then it gets to the fourth quarter and the jazz flip the game again. And this 17-point lead with 10 minutes to go is down to a bucket with the game on the line. And I mean, just watching it all play out. And this is what I was struck by. And I really wish that I would have tweeted it in the third quarter because I had it fired up ready to go. and I was like, I don't feel like getting into it tonight. But this is, and I would have because, I wish I would have, because I would have looked like a genius.

And the tweet was, there, I watched this team, and there are two different Pelicans team. There is the lame one that forget that Zion Williamson is on the team. And there's the awesome one that remembers Zion, Williamson is on their team. And I swear to God, Kevin, that's in the third quarter. He's six for nine. He has 15 points. He has two rebounds. He has two assists. The team is nine of ten from the free throw line. They shoot 65 percent as a team and they score 40 points. And then they get to the fourth quarter and he gets one shot. the whole

the whole time and they blow a 17 point lead meanwhile Ingram takes like eight shots you got Lanzo taking shots you got Bledso taking shots Zion Williamson came back and took one shot and it was in a capsule

that is the pelicans right you can watch them and they are just this devastating force of nature led by Zion Williamson and then you can watch them and you can go, what in the hell? Like, how are you blowing this? You're up 17 with 10 minutes left to go. Like you, and he gets one shot. And I'm telling you this, it's, he wasn't passing it. He never touched it. He's just not even touching the ball in the fourth court. It's bananas,

bananas to watch it. And they were able to hold on and get that victory. But, you know, the sooner they figure out that's the best player on the team, the sooner they'll be a playoff team. As if it couldn't be obvious that he's the best player on the team. I mean, I don't know if there's another player in the NBA who attacks Rudy Gobert with the ferocity that Zion does it. And it happened ever since his first preseason game against Gobert.

He went at him last season in his first preseason game and to see him do it now, you know, when he's even better, when he has even better feel for the physicality and the speed of the NBA. I mean, this guy is, how long is it going to be until he's leading the NBA in points? Where they are force feeding him, buckets. Whenever that happened. Whenever they decide to. Like tomorrow, like Van Gandy says, we're getting you 20 shots again.

I don't know how anybody could watch that game last night. I mean, Kevin, he was an absolute force of nature in the third quarter. There was no stopping him. And then he gave him the. ball once in the fourth quarter as a lead is just disintegrating. Bogdanovich is hitting threes in transition. It is crazy. And this is the whole Ingram Zion thing.

Like it's obviously like, you know, like I told you, Ingram took eight shots in the fourth quarter, right? Like, he was the guy. And it's like, they need to figure out this pecking order. Like, you're robin, and Brandon, Ingram. him that you're robin like i i know this feels like you're batman but you're robin like this other guy like you you mentioned the gobert thing going at him there was one play in the third quarter and this dude or maybe it was it might have been i can't remember when it was but anyways he

drove on like there's a pick and roll he drove to the basket went straight to the basket gobert does the verticality thing right he ends up behind the damn goal kev like behind the stand ship oh yeah yeah oh yeah I'm I rewounded by times he he doesn't push off

like I don't know anybody in the world that could do that to Rudy Gobert and I kept watching it like does he just pop him with his off arm he never does it he just lowers his shoulder and when he goes up you move like 10 feet

like to clear that amount of space without pushing somebody, especially a guy that everybody has as like a defensive player of the year. Come on. Come on, man. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I'm not excusing the Pelicans for not force feeding touches to Zion. Like watching the fourth quarter last night, there were so many instances in which, like, he's just kind of standing around the wing while a pick and roll is being run on the opposite side of the court.

And there are some instances in which where I feel like the impact could be felt beyond the box score, sort of Gobert-esque. in the sense that like Zion would set a screen, roll to the rim, cause the defense to collapse towards the pain, opening something up for somebody else. So it's like the impact could be felt without a shot being taken. However, like to your point, Chris, there needs to be more of a conscious effort to put the ball in the hands of your best player. And, you know,

like that's the part where it's odd to me how they go through these, you know, ebbs and flows where they're feeding, feeding, feeding, feeding, and then you get nothing. Well, the crazy thing is, like, it's not, it's not Embed, right? Like, Embed, you have to have somebody pass that ball to Joe L&B. Not as much anymore. Not as much anymore. He's never bringing the ball past half court and, like, running the offense.

Sure. I'll tell you what. Someday, he might. Someday he might. But Zion, you really can just let him get the rebound and say like, all right, you take it up. Or have him come to the top of the key and do the cross-court pass. and now he's got it 30 feet from the basket. Him with the ball 30 feet from the basket is not to the defense's advantage, you know?

And I don't know, man. Like they are, I don't understand that team. They are the most confusing team in the NBA. I mean, like, I'm in agreement with you. But I also think, like, in last night's game, Zion had a couple turnovers when he ran the pick and roll, too. Royce O'Neill did a really nice job. on him too. So you got to give credit on that end too.

I'm with you to be clear. Zion should be forced fed more touches, more scoring opportunities than they were giving him in last night's game. But also you tied in a nice job and Zion's impact could be at times felt beyond the box score if he wasn't the guy actually taking the show.

Which is a testament to who he is becoming as a player. He can get you 25, 30 points but his impact is felt beyond just scoring those actual buckets. It's a testament to his rise and greatness. Well, and let me say this.

I will say that, look, they won the game. They won. They didn't lose the game. They won the game. But against the team of the best record in basketball. Correct. Yeah. I'm only saying they won that game because they force fed him in that third quarter

and let him take over the game. And by virtue of that, they were up so big. I mean, they're up 17 in that game. And there was one key play where Donovan Mitchell had a break. He tried to get a little saucy and really tomahawk it with two hands. It flies off the back of the rim. Josh Harder gets a layup on the other end. And that was really, you know, the game.

But that jazz team, look, and I give them credit because you're down 17 with 10 minutes left to go, especially with a million games, you know, in such a short amount of time for all these teams. there's a lot of teams that, you know, just say, all right, we'll go. We'll get back. Yeah, let me sit by starters. Let them get that rest. And now, but those guys like, they, they made the Pelicans make winning plays at the very end of that game, for sure.

For sure. And on that note, I mean, Lonzo Ball, his development, midseason after starting the year, shooting the ball horribly. He's looking good, man. Like, he had some plays last night where he pulled up for mid-ray. Yeah. And that's something that back at UCLA, back earlier in his career, even just last season, you didn't see from him a lot. Working with Fred Vincent, the Pelican shooting coach for Ingram, for Zion and for Lonzo is clearly paying dividends.

I mean, Zion even shooting 75% from the free throw line since late January. Ingraham shooting the heck out of it from three point range, shooting over 80% from the free throw line. Lonzo shooting the ball better. These guys are all getting better. and that's because of it's because of Vincent and the work he's helping doing with those guys

and the commitment that they're making but Lonzo's development he was a guy just a couple weeks ago we're talking about who's gonna trade for him where the Pelicans move them

do you feel like Lonzo right now is a guy that they should be trying to keep with the blend they have there I mean I would have to be in their meetings where they're making

the decision on you know look we can act like you're not supposed to talk about this stuff but I mean you find that I guess you probably have a gauge from last year on what they're wanting, you know, what kind of contract he's going to be

wanting. And so you have those discussions, right? Like, okay, now we've seen it. Are we losing him for nothing in the off season? Because if he wants $25 million and you're like, you know, maybe in some situations he's worth it, but not an hour. Well, I will say this. It could be that type of thing. I looked at it earlier this week. The numbers with him and Zion on the court are, they're real. Yeah. So I would look at it and say, all right, when he's on the floor of my best player, what do we do? Like, is it a help or are, you know, am I deterred from that? Can that fit long term? And the answer to that is yes. It is. Like, they play great together on the floor together. And so I do think you have to take that into consideration, you know. And the other thing is,

you know, are you finding somebody better than him? How? How am I finding somebody better than him? Like, there's a going rate. Can he be my starting guy? Can he be my, do I look at him? And I would say that Lanzo Ball will be a starting point guard in the NBA for somebody. So, and I do think he could be a starting point guard on a good team, too.

Including on the Pelicans. Yeah, yeah, right. What do you think about the Reddick stuff? It's back up again, you know, as a guy that could move. you think, I don't know. I mean, there'd be a market. There's always a market for shooting. Always, always.

Yeah, with JJ Reddick, he obviously started the year, shooting the ball pretty poorly. He's back, you know, JJ's back draining threes at this point. Of course, there were rumors about the fact that a Northeast team could have interest in him. Net Sixers, Celtics were interested. I've heard two other teams that could be connected to JJ

in a potential trade, and that's Denver and Dallas. So those are two other teams to monitor, of course in the Western Conference, with New Orleans, competing for same playoff spots, but ultimately those are two additional teams that sound like they have some level of interest in JJ Redick,

but we'll see what happens over the coming weeks. It's a better fit with Dallas. I agree. I like that fit. No, that would be, I mean, Luca needs guys that he can just throw it out too and he could count on draining it.

Because the Richardson thing has not played out like you wanted it to. No, which is unfortunate, man. I thought Josh Richardson would turn back into Miami, Josh Richardson. Instead, he's a worse version of Philly, Josh Richardson. I don't want to say I called my shot on that, but I did.

Dallas fans were all over me. You know what they got all over me, that? When I said that he and Tim Hardaway Jr. were in the same tier of player, which they are. Tim Hardaway Jr. has been better than him, I think. Bernal's not wrong about that. You know what I mean? I don't know.

Like, Richardson is just one of those guys that always felt like he always got way more, you know, way more love than he necessarily deserved. I mean, it felt like he was getting better, man. It felt like he was getting better, and then he went to Philly. That's a good,

Philly was a good situation to get open threes. It is. Like, I mean, you're playing it. Ben Simmons there and everything. But that's the point of, like, those are two of the guys that lead the league in three point

assist, Luca and Ben Simmons. I'll tell you that, that's one reason why that Philly fit is still intriguing. You know, reunite, Embed, and Redick. Oh. Those two had really nice chemistry together, add another shooter there.

Well, this is the thing. How crazy is this? When you mentioned that? Like, they're okay with that, though, because they got Seth Curry, which Dallas should have. And so Dallas would be losing Seth Curry and now replacing it with JJ Reddick because they missed that. That'd be wild. You know what? And that's like, what?

15 years? Probably difference between the ages of the two players. So you got really. Seth Curry and now you're replacing it with JJ Reddick by the middle of next season. Like, why didn't you keep Seth Curry on the team? I don't understand. That's what you want.

Sure. I mean, we'll see, man. Like, he's got to have a market. Brooklyn, too. Brooklyn's interests should not be, you know, understated here. They're just going after bigger fish first. Oh, my God.

So we'll see what happens. They got enough. Brooklyn, they are nice. They are figuring it out. That game against the Spurs last night. DeJante Murray hits the absolute craziest shot to go to take them to overtime. That was wild. Hardin like strips them in transition.

I don't know how he made that shot. Like it's like he fumbling it around on the ground, turns around and buries it. It looks like a broken 2K animation or something like that, right? Now they're in overtime and the net's just random in overtime. Wow. Yeah. And that's crazy. without Durant.

And you see, like, this whole road trip, they have been just devastating. And they are really- It's crazy, dude. They are really figuring things out for sure. They've played some games without, you know, Kyrie, even they played all these games recently without Durant. Duran haven't played since February 13th.

And they're still just racking up wins with Hardin and Kyrie. Sometimes just Hardin. Hardin's numbers are freaky. Oh, my God. They are. Yeah, the no turnovers last night. Like, and the assist numbers are just crazy. It's outrageous.

And, you know, I was listening to Bill and Jackie Mack, and they talked about something that's been on my mind since I heard it, which is really, really fascinating to me. And it was part of maybe he's last years, you know, which was even before, you know, he went down with the injury. It wasn't going all that great with Kyrie there. we know that the Kyrie thing in Boston went poorly. And one of the things that they mentioned, which I thought was super fascinating, was that maybe the destiny and what is best for Kyrie Irving is being that Cavs Kyrie Irving,

where he is not the guy with the ball all the time, that he was the guy that was playing point guard and running the show. And we talked about, like, when is the last time Kyrie really made a team better? And now it's almost like they've got this ball, hardens the guy with the ball, and you get this version of Kyrie that is not, like, responsible for setting up the whole team. And he's never a guy that you would see get 11 to 15 assists, sometimes 17. He's just not that guy. That's not the way he plays the position.

And yet those Cavs teams, LeBron was the one with the ball. And now he has conceded Hardin is the one with the ball. And you're getting this unbelievable, less scoring, but this unbelievable playmaking version of Hardin. And you really are getting the best version of Kyrie. And he may be, that is totally reasonable to me that he could have just been miscast for so long as a guy that you gave your offense. to and gave the ball to run it. And that's just, that's not when you get the best of him. Sure.

And I think with Kyrie, we're seeing that with the numbers, having a borderline of 50, 4090 season, 89.3% from the free throw line. You know, what a scrub. Can't get over the 90% line from the free throw line. But like with Kyrie, dude, he's a remarkable talent as an offensive player. He's a remarkable player with his ability to score.

Running an offense and commanding and orchestrating over the duration of a full game, Hardin's better suited for that. And you're putting Kyrie in situations now. We're playing off ball more often. He's getting open catch and shoot threes. He's moving off ball to get himself open for threes, a little bit more cutting, picking his spots against a weaker defender oftentimes because Hardin is that guy taking on the toughest matchup a lot of the time.

So it's like all these factors creating a situation for Kyrie, we're seeing the best version of him. And yet, Chris, it's not the best version. It's just not. That will arrive when Katie's back. When you have Kevin Durant back with this Nets team and they're clicking on all cylinders, I look at them and I think this team as good as they are right now. They're not near their peak.

There's a higher level for this team. Chris, we're seeing signs of it. Bruce Brown, the games that he's having on the offensive and the Florida, the challenges that he presents as a six foot four guard being utilized as a rim running center, it captures better than anything else that I've seen this season, the state of positionless basketball. When you're using Bruce Brown in that form and he's racking up 20 plus points in certain matchups, and when he's rolling down the lane,

it kind of creates a challenge for defenses in the same way that like Draymond does for the Warriors. You know, when you have Steph Curry and Draymond setting the screen, Steph, the gravity that he provides as a shooting threat is what allows Draymond to be open on the role and to pick apart defenses with the pass or dribble and get to the basket. It's the same exact concept with the Brooklyn Nets with either Hardin or Kyrie. Because even though Brown is only 6'4, Draymond's what, 6'5, 6 6 6. And he's not as heavy, but he has a similar skill set in that particular area of the floor. the Nets are just shredding teams doing it.

Defensively, you can play small with him. You could put DJ out there, DeAndre Jordan, play with a drop, pick and roll defense. You can put Nick Claxton out there, play more aggressive, switch more screens, but retain size. We saw that in that game last night. The Nets, the best version of them is not here yet because that will come when Katie's back. It'll come in the playoffs when Hardin, Kyrie and Katie are all locked in on defense.

and I feel this team has more options and more ability on the defensive end of the floor than they're getting credit for. And that's even without whatever move they're going to make ahead of the deadline or during the buyout period. This team is awesome and they're only going to get better. The Bruce Brown thing is an absolute revelation. Number one, it's so funny to see him come back up as a part. Somebody told me that he was, like he was like a big time athlete in high school. and it was like an awesome football player.

And you can see, you know, with his physicality, you can see how Bruce Brown would have been an awesome football player. And they figured out how to use him. And then when you were going through that monologue, I was trying to look up, like, why he ended up, like, being cast off from Detroit. Like, I, I, why Detroit just used a pick on him last year? And he's good. Like, why is he not a piston?

and you try to go through the deal. And it's still hard to figure out, like, why? Why is he not there? I don't know what, again, it's hard to figure out what the pistons are doing. But he would certainly, when you hit on a draft pick, a guy that's like, and if you get a guy in the second round that's going to have like a long NBA career, you hit. I don't understand why he's not a part of whatever you're going to be doing going forward. For Detroit, it was the Sadiq Bay trade.

You know, they wanted Sadiq Bay. And that deal for Brooklyn, if you look at it strictly as Sadiq Bay and then the choice of Shammett or Luke Kinnard and they chose Langer Shammat, you could argue that Brooklyn should have just kept Sadiq Bay. But Shammett and Bruce Brown, Bruce Brown's been dang good for Brooklyn, dude. And like I said, their defensive versatility, it's really unusual. It's really unusual what they can do with their ability to play different styles. I think that's going to really serve them well in the playoffs. Because they're going to have to beat different types of teams in order to get to the finals and actually win the finals.

So I like their flexibility. It's better than they get credit for them. I can't wait until we get to see them versus Philly and they're both like full strength. I want to see those teams because I do think Philly can create a real problem for them. Size-wise. M-Bee. Yes. And B-Bied, Harris, Simmons.

I mean, that's huge. That is a big, big lineup. And obviously you could throw Simmons on one of them to hopefully slow it down or make them inefficient, right? And they still do, they do not have anything for MB. They don't have anything that can deal with him. If he is that locked in, I'm murdering everybody MB. Which he has been in this entire season. So, I mean, that is the team that I look at and I say, okay, these other teams, like, they're smaller.

but like the big team like that, I do think that that could be, that could be a poison pill. Because that Bruce Brown thing's all fun until he's trying to get rebounds over Joel and B. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, it's tough. And I'll tell you what, man.

Like, let's just say, we're looking far ahead here, a Philly Brooklyn seven game series. They're going to pressure and beat and force him to pass out of double teams and traps more than I think you could believe right now. I mean, like, they're going to pressure him like crazy.

And Embed, he's been doing a pretty good job at handling double teams better than he ever has before. So, you know, Embed, we talked so much about a scoring progress. I mean,

he's having one of the best seasons for modern day big right now. He's in the middle of it. He's also gotten better at passing out of that pressure. And he's going to see a lot of that, like regardless of the opponent, but Brooklyn especially because of the size limitations you're talking about, they would do that a ton.

And, Chris has been awesome. Fun series. Harris has been awesome this year. They've gotten a different, it's not just a All-Star. Yeah. It's not just a different M-B. They've gotten a different Harris, too, you know.

They've got a different sentence, too, for that matter. Everybody in that team feels like they are hungry and that they're playing like a team that got embarrassed in the first round the year after they lost a heartbreaker at a game 7 to Toronto. That's what they're playing like. A team that's out for revenge that's out to show. that they are different and that they're grown and they've been through it. And you know what, dude? It wouldn't have shop for one bit if that's the type of series that goes seven.

Philly, Brooklyn, that could be an epic, epic series. Speaking of that Eastern Conference, you know, you've got Philly, we figure that there's going to, the teams that are going to be there at the end. Those three, I think, are a little bit separate. I think you probably have to throw Miami in there because you give them the, you know, You're saying those three Philly, Brooklyn, and Milwaukee, yes. And then Miami, you have to give them the credit for being where they were last year. And they are going to be with Jimmy Butler and Bam, as long as those guys are healthy, they can still be a hard out.

And there's some tinkering that I think they will inevitably do with their lineup. So anyways, even if you just get to those four there and we say, all right, if somebody was going to bust through those, Maybe it's Miami. Maybe it's Toronto. Maybe it's who are Boston, whoever. The Knicks. The Knicks. Look, this is, I was thinking about this this morning.

Think about how crazy this is. So we look up today and you've got those top three, which you would have expected are the top three, Philly, Brooklyn, Milwaukee. Four is the Knicks and five is Miami as of this morning. Now that is by virtue of both of those teams going seven and three over the course of their last 10 games. But you see that from the Knicks, who are the four seed right now, all the way down to Chicago, who is currently 10th, there is a two game difference between the Knicks at 4 at 4 and Chicago at 10. that is insane. Like we're talking about the last home court advantage slot. The team that has that right now is two games ahead of the last team that gets in for a play in.

And it's stunning. And what I was thinking about is in just a week, week and a half's time, you see how foolish it can be for a us to look at the standings when it's all so tight in order to decide who we think the all stars are. Thank you. Because when it's so tight, and I'm not talking like there's a massive separation between four and ten. I'm talking like it is this year.

Because if you did those all stars today, there is no discussion on Julius Randall. None. They're the fourth seed. And just by virtue of saying the Knicks are in. fourth place in the east, you would say their best player has to get in. And now, so they got their guy in, but now does it look goofy that Jimmy Butler and Bam out of bio? Aren't there? Like, they're fifth, right? They're fifth right now in the standings. And so, I mean, Chris, like, look, you got to get Voochovich in the All-Star game, though. Your coach has got to get Vooch in there.

I know. I know. It's crazy, though, to think about it, right? Like, you go. So if it's this week, you know what those arguments are. Bro, the fifth seed doesn't it? Like, why don't they have the All-Stars on their team? But, I mean, things changed that rapidly to where four and five are now New York and Miami. I mean, listen, Bam, should have been in the All-Star game. He should have been in there. I had him in my fake reserve ballot.

Coaches obviously vote for that. He should have been in there. Julius Randall, I did not have on my fake ballot. I would have changed that. I was wrong when I first published that. Julius Randall deserves to go in there. It's the more Julius Randall does it, Chris, the more unbelievable it becomes to me, man.

This is a guy I didn't love as a prospect. I didn't love him when he was young in the NBA. I didn't love him last year. And neither did the Knicks fans. A lot of mixed fans weren't happy about seeing Julius Randall become a guy who's getting 30 plus minutes again this season. But he's proven that he's gotten better, dude. I don't think this is fake.

I think this is for real. We're seeing an improved Julius Randall. You can see it with his actions on the court, the feel for the game, the passing, the decision-making, the effort on defense. It's remarkable to watch.

I'm having a lot of fun watching Julius Randall. Last 10 games, and I mentioned there's 7 and 3 in those games. Julius Randall, 23 points, 11 rebounds, 48% from the field, 42% from 3. Unbelievable. He's been unbelievable.

And look, This has not gotten a lot of attention, but I went back and looked at these last 10 games and like the net ratings for all these guys. You know who has the highest net rating on their team by a wide margin? Derek Rose. Wow. Plus 6.7. Plus 6.7.

And the record's been great since they acquired it. Like that is under the radar. And you knew Tibbs was going to play him. Like you knew it. And you know who's this is. This creates, I heard Jackie Mac talking about this. It does create a bit of an awkward situation because nobody is closer to Tibbs than Doc. And it's the kid that's out of the, he's really, you know, not really in the rotation nearly as much anymore.

Since the, you know, they acquired Derek Rose and Austin Rivers has kind of been on the outside looking in. and so you wonder if they'll, you know, they move him somewhere or whatever else. But it's just, it's fascinating that Rivers, you know that his coach is so incredibly close. Like she was talking about how Tibbs spent so much time down with Doc and, you know, watching those practices and being around when he was out of work. And now he's pretty much put his bench on the, or his son on the bench for Derek Rose. And Rose has been really good for them. I mean,

yeah, I mean, too bad. What? Too bad. Too bad. I mean, like the,

the, the best players are going to play. Derek Rose is the better player right now. Emmanuel quickly is the, is a younger player. Yes. Who has been really good and deserves that developmental time. You got shot creation with R.J.

Barrett, who's shooting the ball better than he ever has. He's playing the best basketball of his life. And, RJ, like, I'm curious, Chris,

because, we got tweeted at yesterday with somebody giving us RJ Barrett stats versus John Moran's stats. I'm not comparing the two. I'm not asking you to compare the two. But the point of it was just the fact that RJ has really come along

this season as a score. His efficiency has improved quite a bit. How do you see, how do you see RJ developing? It's always, it's all, look, Nick's fans are kings of this. You saw it over the, the weekend. I'm not asking you to compare them, Chris. I don't want you to compare RJ

and J. But I'm wondering like where what is the developmental trajectory for RJ Barrick? Because for Jah, like it's pretty clear. Improving the perimeter jumper. Like for Jod's very clear. That's the next step. For RJ with the path he's on, where do you see his

career going? I think RJ can be a super high level starter. Maybe all star in the league. I mean, that's what I thought. I think that Moran... I think Moran is a superstar. Like, he will be a superstar.

So you see superstar with Jai, you see All-Star with R.J. I think that could be his ceiling. So it's like Zion, Megastar, you know, potential like face of the league. J-Supor-R-J-All-Star. Actually, I think it's fair to say, kind of like Zion and Ingram.

Like, Ingram's not a super... He's never going to be a superstar. But he's an all-star level player. Outstanding player. Zion is a different, like, that's like face of your franchise, best player on your team, you know, that can go all the way, right? Zion could be the best player on a team that wins a title one day. And I feel that way about J. I don't think that's RJ.

But that's not a demerit. Like, I mean, but what I say is Nick's fan is like, it's always small sample size theater, right? to make it look the best. And there was that tweet that was going around everywhere. The guy from New York said, you know, was Chris Bosch ever better than Julius Randall is now?

You know, and it's like, I mean, it's one of the things you do love about the next being decent again. It's great. I love it. But it brings out this irrationality

that is just not, it's not, it's founded in goofiness. Founded it. Goofiness. Because I went and looked up. I went and looked up. You know, they've been on this really good streak.

I went and looked up. RJ last 10 games. It's good. It's 44% from the field, 35% from 3, 16.5 points a game. Like, that's good. It's good. That's not unbelievable. But again, you can extract anything.

So what was extracted that was sent to us is the last 103-pointers that John Morant has taken versus the last 300 three- pointers that RJ has taken like what the hell okay like how about

are we serious like this is what this is what we're doing like that's not again Jah has to develop that much like a lot of his

peers did like Fox Fox is a good actually he's a good comparison because Fox was not a guy the kings aren't any good

Yeah, no, there comes a time where they've got to stop going under screens against you. And you just have to be able to hit it at that rate, you know, to where the decision is not always the screen comes. We're running back to the free throw line so that you can't just drive past us or whatever. But that's the treatment he gets. But yeah, that Eastern Conference has gone absolutely crazy and there's no way to figure out who's going to end up where. I mentioned Sacramento and Fox, who in his own right, is having a very good season. But that team is in an absolute free fall, Kev. Like, that is, I do think we thought of them as not in that Minnesota, Oklahoma City class,

but rather a team that is going to be competing for the 10 spots, for the opportunity to be in the playoffs. and lately they certainly have looked much closer to the Minnesota Oak City class than they have the other ones that are all competing for those 10 spots in the Western Conference. Well, I think they've won one game in their last 10. It's tough. Yeah, it's tough. And they blew, I mean, maybe the most incredible game. of the year.

For those that are unaware, they played against Charlotte the other night. And I mean, you could watch basketball for 100 years and maybe never see. They were up 123 to 115 with a pair of free throws

and possession with 109 left in the game. 123 to 115. A pair of free throws. in possession, 109 on the clock. Losing that game is like impossible. Really?

It's like impossible, much less on a Malik Munk and won, right? That's not what you're expecting Malik Munk, though. That's not how you're expecting. And oh, we do need to mention we covered last week about the whole, it feels like Rassillo said it feels like

a team down to like 80% of the time they're taking a three. I couldn't help but think about that. When you see Monk drive, make it and get fouled. They were down too. So, like, that is the moment

that Sacramento would take the three to try to win that game. But instead, or I'm sorry, that Charlotte would. Monk went straight to the basket. And then he, the old,

the old school three point play. Oh, that was nice to win that game. Monk, his last five games. 20 points, 29, 25, 21, 19, with, great efficiency, shooting the heck out of the ball.

Dude, I mean, Malik Monk, like he looks like a guy who is going to stick around. I think he's contract year. I believe so. Yes, he is. He was on the Fox team and Fox got paid a fortune. So he's already got this extension. He will be

a restricted free agent this off season. So like, you could say it's a contract year. Or he's stepping up big time in that regard. Or you could just say that after a couple early struggles in his career, he's finally found his shot. He's a guy who used to shred teams from three in high school and in college he did, but he couldn't really find his shot early in his career for whatever reason it is.

But the way he's playing right now, he looks like a guy who forget about what we've seen. Forget about like the struggles. Right now, Malik Monk looks like a guy who's comfortable with his skill set in the NBA. And that's a valuable player. When you have a jumbo-sized point guard in lamello ball and a jumbo-sized point guard, ball handler, a playmaker, and Gordon Hayward, you can survive with a smaller kind of offball guy in Malik Monk. So Charlotte, dude, I've heard, I've heard they might be a little aggressive ahead of the deadline. And if you're looking for stuff out there, yeah, I've heard they'll be a little

aggressive. It doesn't mean they'll make a deal because there's not a lot of sellers right now, but it sounds like Charlotte is sniffing around looking for somebody who can really bolster their team. So Monk could either be a guy who looks like trade bait, a good piece, good trade piece, or a guy that you keep and have is that spark plug in your rotation amongst all these other big ball handler. So I look forward to seeing what they do. Yeah, that is fascinating because, as you know, I was around a team last year that went through this with Morant,

and it was like, oh, God, he's much better than we thought. Your trajectory changes when you sit there and you go, this guy is better than we thought he was. going to be in year one. And so now we got to recalibrate this thing. And inevitably, they are seeing that with Lamello. They're going, hold on now. We can win and really win faster than we thought because this guy is already good.

And we can go and like let's let's take some lump. Let's get to the playoffs and take some lumps in the playoffs. You know, right now when he's a rookie, because we got him cheap for three more years. The Lamello, as a starter, averaging 21 points, seven assists, six rebounds, shooting 43% from 386% from the free throw line. It's outrageous. What Lamello is doing as a rookie as a rookie in the NBA.

Like, remember early in the year when we talked about some of James Rago's comments about like, you know, the guys who start games, you know, have to be consistent on defense. Yeah. You know, the limit turnovers and all that. Lamello is progressively getting better all the time in every way that he needs to get better. And it accelerates what they want to do. And the monk thing's crazy because like he, you know, even if his destiny, which I think could absolutely be so, being at the heater, he's the he's the,

the Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams, Jordan Clarkson, He's on a great team this year. Like, just he's the guy that could come off and like on a night where you may not have it really going, he's dropped at 25 for you. I mean, you saw it last night with Clarkson. He came in in that Pelicans game and was getting buckets in the second half of that game. And you're like, this is exactly why you want a guy like that. Because things ain't going so good, there's a guy that could come and just splash offense on the other team.

and Monk appears to be that kind of dude which is crazy because they had you thought Devante Graham was that kind of guy too you know and Devante Graham's out right now and right right that's what I'm giving him the opportunity yeah

and so like it was you wonder sometimes you fall into this stuff you know what I mean no like James Barago like you said those quotes at the beginning of the year like if Terry and Devante don't get hurt

Like, how long does it take before we get Lamello in the starting lineup? But then once he was in the starting lineup, it played like he did. He made it undeniable. You could not take him out of that lineup after you had him there. But you stumbled into that. That was by virtue of injury, you know? Sure. And I think also sometimes you sign a player and they got ripped for signing Terry Rozier to the contract that they did.

And then Terry Rozier has turned around and followed up and gotten better. He's playing to the contract, averaging over 20 points, shooting over 40% from three since he got the Charlotte, making solid decisions with the ball in his hands. He is another kind of one of those, you know, firecrackers for them, right? You know, he's a spark plug for Charlotte. So you have a number of those guys who can go off on any particular night. And then you have lamello ball who has a rookie as a stabilizer. He's a floor razor and a ceiling razor. Gordon Hayward, who was having a great season.

Boston are ripped for the way they handled it, but people understood with the struggles, but he's back to being Gordon Hayward. So, like, this team is really, really good. Like, they're not, like, we talk about, you know, those top three kind of being locked in right now. If Charlotte does make one more move, they could become that fourth team in the east. No, no, no. Miami is the fourth. Well, my, yeah, sure.

Okay, Miami, too. Miami too. I guess I mean in terms of regular season record, you know, they could be, but like, because it's so close. In terms of ranking the Miami would be above them. But theoretically, you know, maybe Toronto moves Lowry, maybe Boston doesn't make a move, maybe Charlotte does make a move. Charlotte could be way better than people think they would be entering the season.

Well, there are. Inevitably, we started talking about Sacramento and then we started talking about the more fun team. But back to the Sacramento thing, do you think Luke could be in trouble? Oh, yeah. I actually think there's a little bit of that situation. What we just, this is going to be a good bookend

because we started the show talking about the Lloyd Pierce firing. And the truth of the matter is this. You've got Deeran Fox and you've got Buddy Heald and he got Marvin Bagley and he got Rishon Holmes and you got Harrison Barnes and you got Bialitsa, right? If you want to throw him in there. I mean, Pia Leitza would be sixth on the list, right? I mean, anybody could do this. Go look at their roster.

I mean, it sucks. You know, when I talk, you know how many times I talked about like, How many guys do you play where you're just like, oh, that guy sucks? Yeah, I mean, anytime you're playing Marvin Bagley for 35 minutes, you're in trouble. One of the worst defense, one of the worst, one of the worst defensive bigs and basketball. It's just the reality of it. He's a poor defensive player. It's tough to win when you're playing that guy for that many minutes.

He's not ready for those minutes. If you think they're losing because of Marvin Bagley, you are out of your butt. You stupid ass. Look at their roster. You're not losing because of Marvin Bagley. Go look at the numbers. Look up and down. Good grief.

There's people they put in the game. You don't even know who they are. They could walk in. Oh, like Rashon Holmes, right? No. Yeah, maybe like Rashon Holmes. Look, Rashon Holmes is, he's had a very good season. But like this all, like, everything turned into a pumpkin and they're not.

I wonder if they're going to be sellers because people would absolutely want to get a discounted Bagley. They'd want to get a discounted healed. Barnes. Discounted Barnes. Like I do think there's... I don't know if they're discounted, but they could be sellers. And you wonder if, you know, does anybody there have Luke's back right now to say it's not his fault?

Probably not. Right? I mean, they switch management every two years, it feels like. Like I said earlier, it felt inevitable that Lloyd Pierce would be let go at some point. It feels inevitable at some point that Luke Walton will be too. You do? You think so? Yeah, it feels inevitable.

The team sucks, dude. No, I know. It sucks. They should have never gotten rid of Dave Yeager. And, you know, a lot of the same things Hawks fans were saying about Pierce, Kings fans are saying about Luke Walton. And at some point, you know, you have a new general manager there in McNair. He's going to try to get his guy to be the coach.

Luke Walton was not his choice. And like I said, it feels inevitable that he'll be let go at some point. Just a matter of win, really. This team's horrible. It's crazy. I mean, Yeager was developing those guys and was like, they were on a trajectory. And, yeah, I mean, that was a whole different thing. They just set it back again, though.

That was a whole different thing there. But I get it, but they change management too. It's like, they change management and they change coaches. Which franchise are we talking about here? The Sacramento Kings. Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, you would figure you would just at some point, you know, there was a point where, like,

Bob Kraft, you. You read those old books where he just said, I don't know enough about this. I'm turning it over. You know what I mean? I'm finding the guy and he found Belichick and he got out of his way, right? Because he had Parcells and he meddled in it. And Parcells did the whole,

you think they let you cook, you know, pick the groceries or whatever. And then he brings in like a player's coach and Pete Carroll and all that stuff. And he's still kind of in the mix. And that goes poorly. And so then he backs off it. He says, you know what, this is not my expertise. Let the guy do it. And you would hope that at some point, you know,

the Sacramento ownership would say, you know what? I don't know enough about this. But isn't that the guy that, you know, thought that you should leave one player at the other end of the court to try to get buckets, only play defense with four? Yeah.

When you're coming from that point of view, it might not be. I don't know. I don't know how successful you're going to be is getting him out of the mix. You know, you mentioned Pete Carroll, you know when I say I'm pumped and jacked? That's from Pete Carroll.

That's a reference to him. Yeah, he first said that like in the late 90s, early 2000s. I'm going to guess that over the last five days he has not been pumped and jacked. No, definitely not with a lot of worst situation there. No.

That would not make me pumped in jail. Like, no. Definitely not. I mean, really, though, whose fault is it,

though? You're going to put an offensive line in front of one of the better quarterbacks in football and they have not done that, successfully for Russell Wilson, which is a shame. The guy's got an insane talent. Got to protect them. Oh, for sure. Especially all you got to give is give him time.

He's got a Freako wide receiver in Metcalfe. Just let him get time to get down the field. That whole, like the entire offense from like the running backs they have, the depth, you know, and then the wide receivers they have the talent there, even at tight end. They have talent Seattle. But they don't have the offensive line. They don't have an offensive line. It's a shame.

It's a shame. they'll either get one or they'll lose their guy one or the other that's that's what we know you're either going to see them have an offensive line or they will not have their quarterback for all that long to say the least it's pretty cool the NFL with all these quarterback musical chairs potentially

it's gonna be fun see what happens it feels like these quarterbacks now are doing a little bit like their NBA brethren and they know they've got more power than they have exercised, right? They've got more power than they have exercised in the past. And so now, who knows? But I don't think this is going to become necessarily commonplace in the NFL,

but it makes for an unbelievable offseason to say the least. It's sort of fun. Who knows? Kevin is always a pleasure. Thank you to producer Sasha as always. If we want to take some questions on Friday, from the mailbag, we've been getting all kinds of great ones. give him that email address.

So send us an email at NBA Mailbag at gmail.com with any questions about the NBA or random life stuff, whatever it might be. And we'll pick out the best ones and answer those on Friday. All right. We will talk to you on Friday.