The Mismatch - How Long Does Darvin Ham Have? Plus: Bucks Survive Wemby and the Wide-Open Championship Landscape

Episode Date: January 5, 2024

Verno and KOC react to the thrilling game between the Bucks and Spurs that saw Victor Wembanyama go toe-to-toe with Giannis (01:08).. They next discuss last week’s trade between the Knicks and Raptors that saw OG Anunoby, Precious Achiuwa, and Malachi Flynn get shipped to New York for RJ Barrett, Immanuel Quickley, and a second-round pick (19:21). With the championship window wide open in the league, the guys discuss which teams will make the necessary moves to elevate themselves into true Finals contenders (34:31). After a disappointing loss to the Jimmy Butler–less Heat, it was reported that there is growing distrust with Lakers head coach Darvin Ham as the guys debate where the team could go if it does decide to let him go and what it needs to do if t keeps him (46:45). You can read KOC's article here Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout http://theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from Offguard, and I've got some exciting news. Offguard hosted by me and my guide Pasha Gigi is officially moving to our own podcast feed. We are now dropping two shows every week. Me and Pasha go way back and talk so much hoops already that we figured it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on these conversations. Every week, Pasha and myself will hit on the biggest stories happening around the league. Tap into the show twice a week on our new Offguard feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Thursday night from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor,

aka Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Fever, Kevin O'Brien. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. We are back. It's our first episode of 2024 and it is right after watching the Bucks versus the Spurs, which was not necessarily. a highly anticipated TNT affair and yet became one of the most memorable Thursday night affairs. I think that we will have the entire season because of the Spurs being so competitive,

making the Bucks and Lillard and Yannis win that game. And then on the other side, Wendeman, putting on a show of shows for the world to see in the Spurs getting. a national TV game despite the fact that they have got enough wins that you could count on your hand. Great game. And the highlights from this game, you know, you just see the compilation already, you know, as they're putting out the highlights on NBA.com, ESPN.com as the game's going on.

And it's like, Janus with the and one through traffic, Wembe with the block and then the step through three. Wemby behind his back, finishes at the rim. I mean, the highlights are crazy from this game. And that was a treat. I think for anybody that tuned that in, got way more than they bargained for. It was one of the games of the year. I had so much fun.

I was laughing of myself watching that game. The sequence with a little bit under two minutes left when Wembe blocked Damien Lillard and then he hit the game tying three-pointer, to make it 121, 121, and then Janus goes back on the other end and just plows through everybody to score and take the lead back for the bucks.

It was just, it was really the Greek freak against the French freak all the way through from start to finish. Yannis was unbelievable. 44 points on 28 shots, 14 rebound, 7 assists. He was absolutely dominant.

And Wembe, I mean, like it was another one of those games, like you said, Chris, with some of those plays you described where he just showed the upside of what he can be when this all starts clicking offensibly, because he's already in the turn defensively. He had the big block on Janus as well down the stretch of that game. It was truly a pleasure to watch. It was. It's going to be interesting to see going forward. I know Trey Jones is going to be absolutely sick about missing that corner three, which was a great look.

But the Spurs did look so much better. Now, that can go two ways. Is that a function of playing against the Bucks whose defense has been under the microscope in a huge way this year? Or is this a function of a young team that was given their opportunity on TNT and played out of their minds because they know everybody's watching? Or is it because they put Trey Jones in the starting lineup and they look like they have a semblance of a real basketball team? Like, I have been of the opinion, they've got enough players to be much more competitive than they have been this season. their season has been a disaster. Going into tonight,

they had a worse point differential than Detroit. And Detroit is like got the memes on Instagram every day for being the sorriest team ever. Yeah, Popovic should be sending Monty Williams flowers every single day for just distracting from the fact that the spurs are. I mean, they've played really ugly basketball this year. And a lot of that is because of coaching. I just don't feel like there's any accountability

in terms of feeding Wenbenyama. And I don't feel like that team has really a structured system, which young teams often need. It feels very freelancing like those great spurs teams once had. But those great spurs teams had years of experience and elite of the elite basketball IQs. These young guys need more structure. And I don't feel like they have that really on either end of the floor. Well, but part of that was something that you supported. Experimentation with Jeremy Sohan at point guard.

And they pulled the plug on it. And we already saw a year of Trey Jones at point guard, and we know he is a bad three-point shooter. We saw that in the final moments of the game as like a sub-25% guy from three. We know he can create for others, but he's not necessarily the sole reason why Wemby had a big game. Wemby had a big game because Wemby was taking things into his own hands at times with post-ups and that crazy scoop shot that he had. I don't even know what that was. It was like a finger roll out of a post-up.

It was nuts. It's like Wemby had a big game because Wembe is an alien, not because of Trey Jones or Jeremy Sohan or anybody else in the team. It was because Wembe alone made that game happen for himself. So I got to see him earlier this week in person. And there has been a lot of the Chet, Chet, Chet, Chet, Chet's contributing to winning, Chet's on a really good team. You know, the stats are similar in most cases, all this kind of stuff. and this is not in any way. I feel like when you talk about two guys,

it feels like you've got to tear one down in order to build the other one up, and that's not what I'm doing here. Not at all. Not at all. But what I am telling you is I have never seen anything like Winviniam. Never, no. I mean, seeing it in person the other night in a game,

I mean, the team stinks. The team absolutely stinks. But watching him, I think it's a first time in a long time that I made sure I was at the arena extra early so I could watch a guy out there warming up. Curry's one that typically I want to get to the arena and I want to watch that. It is just such a show every time. And you can't believe a guy can hit this many threes in a row and then he does the half court thing. He keeps backing his way up all the way to half. I mean, it's just freakish. But

I showed up there to see Wenbanyama early before that game and just watching him warm up on the court. I have seen things like Chet. I have never seen anything like this guy. And if he were on a good team or he were on a team that was well structured and played good basketball, I think we're going to look up in barring injury. we're going to look up in three or four years and I don't know what you're going to be able to do with him.

He moves like those other guys that are 6-9 and 6-10. Like those kind of like the unicorn guys that we've fallen in love with that he has a fluid nature he's not plotting

and he's got this crazy amount of like skill with the ball. Well, he had the around the world. And then he's seven, five. He's not. 7-5 and you see him, you're like, bro, how is this happening? Doesn't the play that summed that up from tonight with the transition take where he went

around the back and then he dumped it? I mean, that sums up exactly what you're talking about with the height and skill combination. The dude is unlike anybody we've ever seen. And I think with the spurs, I mean, you can point to the coaching, you can point to the roster, the personnel, the minutes restriction that he currently has after the ankle injuries that he had at 25-ish minutes per game. But I don't think the rookie of the year race is over by any means. Chet is putting up superior numbers in terms of scoring efficiency.

He's playing more minutes. He's still having ridiculous nights on defense. I think Chet should be an all-star. And I think Chet should be in the all-defensive team conversation. But Wenbanyama individually should also be in the all-defense of conversation. It just so happens that the spurs and the team suck on. defense. You can't do it all alone. And that's the difference between the Thunder, one of the best teams in all of basketball with their collection of pieces that they have in the Spurs,

one of the worst teams in basketball with what has been shoddy coaching this year with a young inexperienced roster versus one of the best coach teams in Dagnol and the Thunder. So for Wembe, despite all that, he still has higher usage than Chet, you know, higher assist percentage, higher rebound percentage, some of the more advanced. stats rather than the raw points per points per game rebounds per game numbers are better than Chet. So look, it's only early January right now. This race is not over.

Wembe Nama could have a massive close of the season. And so could check. Chek could get better too. So it's not, it's nowhere close to over. I thought it was a good moment because it's a function of being on such a terrible team. For sure. People had gotten a little down on him. And I think tonight was a very good reminder of just what a special.

talent this guy is and how it's just it's like nothing we've ever seen you did ask the question in there though chris how much of it with the spurs success tonight was because of the buck's defense which is abysmal i mean they gave up 140 whatever to the pacers and lost their fourth game to the pacers this year just yeah last game so i don't know what were your thoughts on the Stephen A. Smith said he's the major griff was going to coach himself into getting fired. Yeah. I mean, look, I think that any time, and we are seeing this, we will get to it later with the Darwin Ham situation, anytime you have high expectations and windows are not infinite, you know, you're not building towards. Like say somebody like, if you go through some struggles with like Mark Taggnolly.

It's like they are exceeding expectations now. And if they, like, they ain't got to win right now. They don't have to, right? But like, if you're coaching LeBron and you're coaching Janice and Dame,

like, you got to make sure this is happening with, with Middleton and Lopez, no less. Like, you got to make sure this is happening in more short, short order. And so the pressure is going to be greater.

25 and 10. 25 and 10. And that's the crazy thing. That's the crazy thing. Yes. It's like they, and they start. it five and four.

So do the math on that. Sure. I mean, they're 20 and what? What did you just say 10? So they're 25 and 10. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's crazy because with the bucks we're like, eh, you know, is it going to be, you know what I mean? Like we see some chinks in the armor on them. On the other side, if we started talking about the clippers who were like 20 and five in their last 25,

we're like, oh God, the clippers are awesome. And they're in the title. contention, right? Of course. It is all relative. Like they got basically, and they may overtake the Celtics. Celtics got a really hard schedule coming up. A lot of games and a lot of days. Those teams, we're going to be talking about those two teams next Thursday night after they play against each other. And I think we might be able to learn a lot after watching them play.

Totally will. And I think with the Bucks, it's such an interesting conversation this year, because like you said, they're winning games. And part of that is because of games like Yonath had tonight where he's just dragging the team to victory. It felt like he just took that win tonight for the books. Those two guys had the last 25 points, Kevin. Unbelievable. Him and Lillard.

Yeah. It's like, yep. I mean, that is in and of itself crazy impressive. Yes. And then the caveat is, yeah, it was against the spurs. For sure. And so, I mean, that's the kind of. caveat like, okay, so they had to do this against the Spurs who stink this year.

I think with Milwaukee, it's interesting because the problem is defense, right? They started the year horribly. They were probably the worst team in the league the first couple of weeks. And then the Bucks asked Griffin to go back to the scheme from last year. And that happened on November 4th. They're 16th in defensive ratings since November 4th. So they're middle of the pack. they're not dominant like they were last season,

but they're not at the complete bottom of the barrel like they were the first couple weeks of the season. So that's an encouraging sign of progress for the Spurs. However, I think you see, like in games against Indiana, games tonight against the Spurs, where they're not exactly quite where they were scheme-wise last season. Like, think about some of those past Bucks teams where they would sag off of average or bad shoot.

and try to get them to shoot threes. The Bucks would give up a lot of threes. Now the Bucks are playing tighter, higher up, closer to the line. That's leading to sequences like we saw with Kelvin Johnson tonight, where he's just blown by defenders. He's getting defended six feet behind the arc when he has the ball on his hands. He's getting picked up way too high, and he's able to back cut past Pat Conanton,

who looks like really slow this year. So it's partially scheme still, I think. It's partially personnel. Like obviously you lose Drew Holiday, you replace them with Damien Lillard. You have Malik Beasley. That's not great point of attack defense. Connerton's not the same guy right now. Part of it is a lack of hustle that last season they were eighth best in points allowed per

game in transition. This year, they're eighth worst in points allowed in transition. So I think it's a lot of little things for the bucks that are adding up to make them average ever since they made the switch. I don't think it's unfixable by any means. But maybe, you know, getting Jake, Crowderback will help a lot. I still believe in Andre Jackson, their rookie wing, giving him more opportunity and making some more little scheme fixes that could have the bucks

right back up under the top 10 on defense. But they definitely do have to solve it. Well, I think that's why I think we were down on, right, because we had, because of the basketball gate and everything and we knew there were smoke between those teams, we were like, man, they're going to play each other on January 1st, and then they're going to turn around to play each other on January 3rd. That's going to be amazing. And they lost both. Yeah, by a lot. You know, and they gave up

122 and 142. It didn't get better. You know, the second game. Like you're typically wanting, right? Like, okay, I lost. Now I go back. Right. We show our game film. We fix what was a problem. And then we come back.

Like, that's the way, that's the ebb and flow of every playoff series we talk about. That's what it was in December, too, right? In December, they got poached by Halliburton in the in season tournament, and then they adjusted in the second game with more pressure like the Lakers did in the championship game. And I think that's what makes this all the more disappointing because you sit there and you go, okay, this is the ebb and flow of something. It's like, why are you giving up 142 to a team that does not have a second guy?

No. They don't have a second guy. And that's got to be worrisome. If you're a Bucks fan watching them, because it's like, okay, we know some of the fixes. Where are the adjustments other than just throwing out a zone? They did that against the Spurs tonight. They've done that.

They did it in the in-season tournament game against the Pacers, too, where they just throw out a zone. But I think the Bucks have a lot of work to do defensively. I'd like to see them. I think Malik Beasley needs to be de-emphasized in the rotation. I don't think the Dame Beasley backcourt is what you're going to want to have in the postseason, especially with certain series against some of these. No way.

No, like some of these quicker playmaking guys, like I just, or even like the bigger, stronger guys, they're going to have to like to stop. Like if it's Jimmy Butler, something like that, I mean, I think they need to make some changes there. Once they can get Crowder healthy,

they'll move Middleton over and they'll start. That helps. That does help. It does. Jay Crowder is not the same stopper he was in his prime. And even, even in his prime, he wasn't like a top of the line defender.

He was just a good hustling defender. He's not a stopper. defender. He's a great team defender. Well, and look, he's like frigging Gary Peyton compared to Malik Beas. Of course. It's the improvement over what you're replacing. More so

Yeah. So I do think that could help a lot. Get in on all the NBA buzzer, beaters, ankle breakers, and Tomahawk jams with Fandul, America's number one sports book. Right now, new customers get $150 and bonus bets guaranteed

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You could decide, I'm going to take the magic plus 10 and a half on the road against the Nuggets. That's a scary bet, though, with all the injured guys Orlando has. Or maybe you'll look ahead at the futures with an NBA. finals bet. Maybe Oklahoma City. The odds are looking pretty good for them as a complete underdog at plus 2,300. You might look at awards. Victor Wenban Yam is not the favorite right now over Chad Holmgren, but after his big game on Thursday night, plus 140, maybe he's able to pick it up at the end of the season and take back that top spot. So if you want to bet on the NBA, visit

Fandul.com slash mismatch and make your first bet a layup. Fandul, official partner of the NBA. Must be 21 plus and president select states $5 pregame money line wager required. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued is non-brewable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. See terms at sportsbook.fandle.com. Another team that I just recently saw. In fact, I saw him play last night was Toronto.

And we've got to talk about them because quickly it was great last night in the game that I went to. Oh, man. He was sensational. And they down to the Grizzlies. But we have not talked about the trade since it happened. between them and the Knicks, which was super fascinating. And I thought one angle that didn't get talked up nearly as much was I laughed as soon as I saw the trade,

not because of the participants in the trade, but because, like, this summer, there were like all those stories about those two teams suing each other. Like, if they can get past that, anybody can make trades, right? Like, what a weird conversation. These are these teams trying to have lawsuits against each other. And now they make this deal. Obviously, Anadobie and Precious are Tibbs guys to the core.

Like, that's the kind of guys he absolutely loves to have. RJ Barrett goes back to Toronto. Yeah, RJ Barrett goes back to Toronto quickly, obviously in Toronto as well. Originally, before we saw anything out on the court, I think you were of the opinion. You liked it for both. You thought this was a good deal for both of the teams. This wasn't a clear win for one team or the other in the trade. Yeah, before the trade, before we saw these guys on the court.

So this was Saturday, New Year's Eve, right, when the deal happened? Or what was it? What did this deal happen? Does the 30th, something like that, whatever else? I think it happened January 1st. Yeah, whenever it was. It all has blended together since we've been off the air the last week or so. When it happened, my initial thought was like,

oh, this feels like one of those rare mutually beneficial deals. Like usually when trades happen, it's players for picks or proven player for unproven player. This is, you know, proven guys for proven guys. And I think that the thing that makes it make so much sense here for both sides is for the Knicks. you need this size and wing defender. OG and Ninobe is what they hoped R.J. Barrett would be. With the reliable spot-up shooting, the more consistency on offense and the better defense,

the better size, this is what they wanted R.J. to be, and now they have him and O.G. and N.O. And Preciousa-Tru is going to be, I think, an interesting fit for them as well moving forward. And then for the Raptor side, I think what we've seen in the two games is exactly why I was so excited on their side of thing. not as much for RJ Barrett, who's still upside player, but largely because of

Emmanuel quickly. Quickly, we saw him in that Memphis game on Wednesday night, the dribble handoffs, the kind of the fast and slow between Scardy Barnes handling the ball and finding Emmanuel quickly, those two together, the dribble handoff potential between them, the pick and roll potential, they are a combination with their dramatically different styles, with Barnes being so big and wide and strong, still with some quickness, and then quickly being just a speedy guy who's just like, he's behind the three-point line, then he's at the rim and a flash.

You're not going to want to switch that two-man action. You do not want to switch a quickly Barnes dribble handoff. And so I think for the Raptors, this is going to be something that's still in the infancy stages right now, but this will grow and could become one of the more potent two-man games in the league. if quickly is the guy that can take a leap from really good players, six men of the year candidate to potential All-Star. And I think he has that in him. We know he's got defense.

He had the canard block in the corner, which was absolutely nasty. I don't know how he managed to get that. And then offensively, the Knicks just, they didn't believe it could work with him in Brunson being such a smaller back court, but the Raptors have the right personnel for him,

I think, to completely flourish. I do think that weirdly, though he was not able to flourish in New York, I think it was great for his career to be a part of winning, to be a part of. And you juxtapose that. And the reason, you know, everybody's excited about quickly in Toronto, much more so than RJ, is because as we've chronicled many times on this show, I thought RJ's career was done a just enormous disservice. the first three years, really two to three, the whole Fisdale, switching out coaches, switching out GMs. It was just a debacle. And he's just in the middle of all of it.

And this is when he's trying to come into the league. Meanwhile, Morant's flourishing, Zion's flourishing. I just think it could have gone a lot different for RJ. But those first couple of years, and so hopefully he gets a new lease on life and he can become something more than just a guy. you know, just a guy because it's what he is. He's just a guy right now.

Nobody sits there and goes, wow, he could really become a big star. And I do think he had real star potential coming into the lead. And I think that part of it's on him and part of it's on the situation that he was in, which was just crucially bad for development with those tanking teams,

with the swapping out of the coaches, with the mess in the front office. and then by the time they got good, right? He's not exactly. He's not your Tibbs kind of guy. Yeah, I mean, R.J. R.J. still, I think despite some of the chaos in those early years, he still panned out to be a solid player.

And I don't necessarily think that's going to change. He's just so streaky. But it's like, he's so inconsistent. It's a score. like it is where if he were drafted to you know a golden franchise would that necessarily change the fact that he is just an incredibly streaky score he did that might just be who he is regardless of circumstances you know and he doesn't ever like you know he can get you 20 points i know yeah but it's maybe like it may be harrison barnsey in the sense that's a good that's a good name to

bring up good right we're harrison barb's good yes and he's been good j is good too rj's a good player right but he's a guy. He's going to have a good, long career. And I think there was a lot of people that thought Harrison Barnes could be a big star, possibly, in the league. And RJ, like, he's also had, you know, stretches where he looks like a great defender as well. It's not like he hasn't developed some very positive habits. He can playmate a little bit. He's just not a lead guy, which is what the Raptors hope quickly can be, like one of your three best guys.

And you said, I thought it was that you brought up Bart. After seeing him last night, he's amazing. I'd whittled down a little bit, though. I don't like all the extra size. He looks a little bulky to me, not overweight. I'm saying, like, I think he's one of those guys that tried to get, you know, he obviously hit the gym. The guy's a monster, right?

And but I do think that. In what way is this negative for him, you think? I just think he was a super athlete. and I just think that the super athleticism doesn't jump off to me in the same way that it did. I mean, he's shooting 38, 39% from three right now. He's... I got you. Ripping down 10 rebounds a game.

He's going coast to coast. I say this is I love him. Yeah. I love him. You just think there's even more upside. Yeah, I think he's just one of those guys that packed on a ton of muscle because he's like, I got to deal with these guys down at the paint. And I think you lose a little of the blowby stuff and above the rim stuff when you do that.

And I think you could probably serve him better. But you know what? I might be wrong. I don't know. Maybe the guy is, he's something to behold. He is so. He is huge. He is huge.

Now, they got a real interesting thing because they just, they're just going to rebuild this thing on the fly. You know, we always think about like, oh, there. somebody's going to tear it down or blow it up or, you know, they're just going to try to get picks or whatever. It seems like that trade was a signal that what they're going to do is they're going to try to alter this by getting players that they can build out around Barnes with. And so now that whole Seacom piece becomes super interesting. Like you may be able to just, you're not ever getting terrible. You're just altering the roster on the fly by doing.

doing that, right? Because we went within a year's time from, oh, they'll move And Anadobie for three first round picks or four first round picks or five first round, whatever, right? They got real players that they're going to build out with. And then they can decide what the future is with them. And do you think that sends us a message on what kind of package they would use other guys? Obviously, Siakum is a big name that's out there and does not have a contract going forward. That this is going. going to be the mo for Toronto, that they're just going to build out on the fly by getting more good young players maybe to build out around Barnes?

It does seem like that. Doesn't it feel like that they're kind of, they're fitting, finding guys who fit the Barnes timeline and they want them to grow together. And Siakum, he's going to turn 30 years old before the season ends. He's going to be a for agent next summer. I would imagine Siakum doesn't fit that timeline. And with Barnes will also be better with him out of the way. I think so.

Play the same position. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, in other ways, Siakum, when he's, I mean, his last four games, he's averaging over 30 points and he's shooting like 60% from three. So, I mean, you're better with a guy of that caliber on your side rather than the other side. So I think on one hand, that's true. On the other hand, yes, for Barnes to be the number one guy in a championship team, if that's what you believe he can be, then sure, you need to move the nearly 30-year-old guy out of the way. And, you know, in return for Siakum, you could theoretically get a ton of pieces that further enhance Barnes, like Quickly enhances Barnes.

Quickly is a piece that makes Barnes better as a smaller guard, a creator to pair with him. Seacom could also be turned into pieces that make Barnes better, whether that's via the draft or immediately in the return from a trade. So I agree, like trading Seacom should be their priority ahead of the deadline on February 8th. But I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing in the world if you end up resigning him. I don't think it is detrimental to Barnes' ability to develop because we're seeing Barnes turn into what he is this year with Seacan as a teammate. It's not bad for him by any means. I just think you can't. You can't lose him for nothing.

No, no, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. No, no. Like, that's the risk. I think you got to trade him. And by the way, why would there not be a ton of interest for Pascal,

Seacom. He could fit literally anywhere, and there's not many teams right now that are actually selling. There's just not a lot of sellers out there. So the one team that is selling, the Raptors, if it's Seacom, or if it's the Bowls with Levine, who do you want to help we win a championship? Zach Levine or Pascal Seacom? Yeah. It's Pascal Seaccom, obviously.

That's amazing. And he already has won a championship. And on the next side, the Anadobie results are already. there. You can tell Nick's fans fell in love immediately. Right? So he doesn't even know what he's doing yet and he's going to be a great fit. Tim says the hard eye emojis like popping out of his face right now.

He's going to be a great fit. And he also is going to make it. Him and Precious, that's just going to be one of those teams that's going to be a bitch to see. When you get to playoff time, you're going to be in a war with them. Yeah, for sure. Because they got a bunch of. Rotweiler's on that team now. It's a shame that they lost Mitchell Robinson.

I think having him as a room protector is important. I don't know. This Hartinstein is turned into damn Will Chamberlain. Ardenstein's really good, man. But more than anything else, Julius Randall, man. Like that dude, he got off to a horrible start to the season. I was saying things like you can't win with this guy. He's not trustworthy.

But man, like that dude, some of the, the shots he's hitting the clutch performances he's having down the stretch he did this weekend the defensive ability the versatility the intensity the toughness he looks like he's back to his all NBA level except better except better and for the nix like their roster is starting to take complete shape uh i said this at the time of the trade this feels like a part one to me and like I think Woj's reporting since has proven that to be true. Woj said on countdown yesterday that the Knicks, whether it's before the deadline or more likely this offseason,

they view this as the deal to set them up for the next deal, to the next star who wants out to cash in on all their other first round picks that they have, including their own, including picks from other teams. They're trying to set up for that next big move, regardless of who that guy is. I'd just look at it and say, we've got these like four where it's you know we got philly and boston and milwaukee and now miami and those are the top four teams in the easter conference right now we certainly think at the end it's the most likely group of four we know crazy things can happen the nicks feel to me like

the one of the once you go down from those four they're the ones that you're like oh crap but the other ones it's like indiana and orlando And like they're the ones that you want to stay away from because it's like, Jesus, we're going to have to play six or seven games against these guys, even if we're better than them. Yeah. It's going to be a, it's going to be a war. I agree.

I mean, Indiana, their offense is brilliant, but the defense is, I don't think it can survive a seven game series. The magic gets the complete inverse. Their defense is great, but their offense unless they're hitting six. Yeah, they're young. And unless they're hitting 60% of their threes like they did the other night against the Kings, their offense. stinks. And even while they were hitting those

threes, I don't know what Moseley was doing with some of those lineups. I don't understand what's going on there even though guys are out. The magic offense stinks. So like the calves, I guess they're a threat as well. The Hawks, you know, with Trey Young, they've had some

playoff runs as well. But the Knicks never than anything else. I know because the Hawks defense is terrible. The Knicks have a good team on both ends. They're the team that feels more complete. So I think Nix would like five or calves six other than that i mean whoever's got you know if you're facing any of those other teams i don't think you're sweating so we're talking about the that was the big trade that

already did happen and maybe we will get more before we even get to the deadline you wrote about three teams to keep an eye on to watch as things heat up going forward so let's kind of talk our way through those uh which one do you want to start with i mean i think i mean it's about three teams to watch for trade stuff, but I think more than anything else, right? It's all west. Yeah, but I think more than anything else, like for me,

I hope one of the takeaways of the articles was like thinking about the landscape of the league in the sense that right now, yes, Denver is the favorite. Yes, they are the defending champions, but they're not quite yet a juggernaut. Like they're not an unbeatable team. I don't believe yet.

And I think the team to look at the next potential juggerna in addition to the nuggets, if they keep getting better, is the Thunder. So, like, the Thunder, they're already great despite having the second youngest roster in the league. They have 37 future draft picks, 15 first and 22 seconds. They have a bunch of young guys that aren't even playing that have talent who could be getting minutes on a bunch of other teams.

They are loaded with assets to get better. So I think if you're looking at the landscape of the league when it comes to contenders and what your competition is going to be for a championship, the window is more open right now than it might be as soon as next season or the year after that. Never mind if you're looking three, four, five years down the line with what the Spurs could look like if they get it right around Wembe Njava, for example.

So I think one of my points on that is the window is open today to win a championship and to pursue it. And so I think teams need to be really aggressive and mindful of what the league could look like next year and the year after that. Because windows can close fast. It can. So I think for, I wrote up with the Warriors and the Warriors, the Thunder and the Kings as kind of three examples of different timelines right now.

The Warriors, the Dynasty of the Past, the Kings is kind of the newcomer team that it feels like they're kind of in the same spot as last year. And then the Thunder who are just, you know, surpassing everybody. I think all three of those teams in their own ways should be aggressive. the thunder probably the least aggressive of all of them. But the king should be going hard after a guy like Pascal Seacum. The Warriors, they get Draymond Green coming back soon, apparently. Cacorin the Woj, he's at least going to rejoin the team after being away from the team.

How weird? How weird is it that strange? That we've never gotten a timeline. Isn't it? All of it is. The timing of everything this week is weird. TMZ releases a photo of Draymond Green at a costume part. for LeBron James's birthday.

And then the next day, Steve Kerr in front of the media is saying, he's been giving us our space. We're giving him his space. He's away from the team. He hasn't been with us. And then the next day on the radio, he's like, well, I mean, that was part of it, him taking time to himself and all that. There's reports about how he's been in Southern California.

And then today, on Thursday, it comes out that he's expected to rejoin the team soon and ramp up activities to come back. And all the timing is really, really weird. How about them just having a random-ass number for how many games he misses? I know. Like, what? Yeah, what is the criteria for returning? How do you handle the next one?

Like, you know, whether you agreed with it or not, Morant got in his trouble and they said, you're out 25 games. Mm-hmm. You're out 25 games. Yeah. That's it. No number for Drayvon. It's just the weirdest thing.

I don't, I don't. He slugged the guy. And they're like, We'll figure out when you We'll just get to throw a dart at the board Weeks after strangling Gobert Months after stomping on Sabonis A year after punching his own teammate Jordan Poole

It's like, well I know, it's all very strange How are they getting away with it Like within the Players Association and everything else? Like how do you handle any other situation going forward and say, okay, this guy, he's out for whatever, 10 games, or this guy's suspended for five games. It's like, what?

And then he's expected to return soon? Like, why would they never give a timeline for this? It's just bizarre. So with these teams, though, I mean, like, you get this Draymond situation for the Warriors, it's been interesting to watch them play. Right now they're facing the nuggets as we record our podcast here. They're down five almost at

half time. It's been interesting. Like I said to you at the time of the second suspension, the silver lining is we get to see the young guys go to work. And I think that's proven to be true. They're above 500 since Dremont went out. Kaminga is playing the Dramon role on offense. He looks really good.

He looks great, actually, playing the Dremon role on offense. He's whipping the ball around the floor, making quicker decisions. Trace Jackson Davis is playing ahead of Kavanaugh right now. Luni looks like a statue. He's not moving well. Jackson Davis looks very, very good for a rookie. He's just got to learn some of the little things like setting screens within the flow of the offense for Steph, some defensive rotation stuff.

But Trace Jackson Davis looks great. And I think Brandon Pajimsky, the touches that are trickling down, Chris Paul obviously handling more of the ball with Draymond out, Pod's getting more opportunities as well. He looks great. So I think there's silver linings for the Warriors. It's just their defense still sucks. The defense sucks. Well, let's just say this, Kev, you know, you've been telling me,

and I know that this was a conversation we've had throughout the season, and everybody says, like, oh, the West is so strong, the West is so strong. There's just too many good teams. There's very few bad teams or whatever. Like, okay, there's a lot of average. It is a lot of, it is a lot of mediocrity, a lot of like slightly, slightly above average teams. Yeah, I mean, when we talked about it, you remember I said, like the, top three are Minnesota, Oklahoma City, and Dallas.

Well, now look, Dallas is in like a play in, right? It's like they were a week away from being a play in. And you look at them and the Lakers and the Warriors and like, they're all these bunched up teams that are just like right around 500. And so it's very NFL-esque in that sense, right? A lot of parity. A couple really good ones. And then there's a lot of nine and eights or whatever.

A lot of parody, which plays them to my point about how I think. the window is open and this is a year to actually invest and try to go for it because there's so many there's so many teams that can feel like you know uh we got a shot we got a shot and i think if like you're the kings and if you're able to turn harrison barns into pascal ceacum that doesn't necessarily make you the favorite but if you're getting a guy who over his last five games is averaging 30 plus points on absurd efficiency and who over his last 25 30 games is averaging like 25 points and dominating ever since his slow start. Siakum is a major player that I think like the Kings, the Kings they were, they had conversations

for OG and and Obie. My understanding, like Shams reported last month that they had interest in OG and Novi and Pascal Seacum, my understanding is their OG interest wasn't much more than just like calls. I think their interest is actually in Siakum. That's when they'll put draft picks on the table. that's when they would actually be real interest in making a competitive offer, which they didn't to compete with the Knicks.

So I think the Kings are going to be looking for deals. I know Kings fans are pissed off at me on social media for saying they're not a championship team. They are not. This week, they get smoked by the Hornets who are missing five guys on a long losing streak on the road in a back-to-back. And then it takes two overtimes to beat the magic despite having two key players out from within the game on the road and a back to back, a team that has not been good recently.

The Kings have problems that need fixing to capitalize on Deerrin Fox, who is absolutely awesome this year, 30 points per game on almost 10 threes per game, almost 40% from three. He has taken another step in his career to go from really, really, really good player to, oh my God, this guy, he can be a top 10 player in any night. And so bonus, I mean, like, look, I don't think, I think he's got some issues defensively,

but that's where the trade comes in. Offensively, that dude is a force. There's no doubt about it. I'd like to see him shoot more threes, and maybe that'll happen post-trade depending on who you get. I just think the Kings, there are a mover or two away from being in the conversation. So why would you not try to go for it before Denver gets even better with their youth, before Oklahoma City catches in on those picks? You've got to go for it.

Well, and I would also look at it and I would say, all right, there's Denver. And that's the, that's the boogie man. And that's who everybody is going to get. But the title is going through Denver in the end. In all likelihood, yes. And the clippers have gotten their shit together and Kauai looks great, but you know, you're there turned ankle away. And it's like a real thing.

Are they going to make it through the entire time with those guys? There's real reason with Hardin and George and Kauai to think, man, are they going to be able to make it through the trudge of the season and then the playoffs. But I would look at them as like a very dangerous matchup. And the other ones, as good as they've been, they haven't done it yet. Minnesota hadn't done it yet. O'Goma City hadn't done it yet. Like there is something about going through, you know, you got to win three

playoff series to get there, right? And you're going to be taking on good coaches and good teams. in those playoff series. And usually veteran teams are the ones that are able to get it done. But I would look at it like you're saying and go, man, you know, there's a lot of parity with this thing right now. And there's really one that's out there that we know. Like we're going to have to somehow beat a Murray-yokage pick and roll.

But everybody else we could compete with. That's how I'd feel. If I'm if I'm one of those teams ranked a little low. right now. In the Clippers, they made their trade to get into that conversation by going to get hardened. Who's going to make that trade next? Will it be the Kings going for a guy? Will it be the Warriors cashing in some of their future picks, try to get that from like below 500 out of the playing right now back into the top six? Like who who's it going to be that makes a trade to bolster their chances? And by the way, it could even be a team like Minnesota. Even though

they're number one in the West right now, there's nothing stopping. and then from going for a backup point guard to try to improve there or adding a shooter. There's nothing stopping Oklahoma City despite how young they are and despite how good the vibes are from saying, hey, you know what? Let's give four first round picks

and go get Lowry marketing. You know what? There's nothing stopping them from trying to bolster their odds as well. So all of these teams, I think, should be going forward. The window is open. The championship is achievable for a lot of teams right now. But really, there's only four or five right now. that I think don't need to make a move to win a championship.

How can you be that 16, that 7th team that can say that? Yeah, because I would say there's four in the east that I would look at and I go, I ain't better than them. Boston, Milwaukee, Philly, Miami. That's right. And there's one in the West. Denver. Yes.

Because they did it and because they have yoke. Yes, that's it. They're the one. They got all the playoffs scars and they got the best play. One of those teams that has fallen back. A great deal is another one that you would look at, and that's the one with LeBron and A.D. And A.D. has been playing out of his mind. And we'll see, look, the Grizzlies are playing them tomorrow night in L.A.

And now there's some drama. I got a report tonight saying that Davis is probable. LeBron is questionable for tomorrow night's game. And you've got this Shams story coming out today where, you know, they were three. Shams Sharani. That was big. Yeah. Three and eight to close out December. And they're starting off the new year dismal. And with those three, like a couple of those are like San Antonio and Charlotte.

So, I mean, they have just been in a bad, bad way. And you've got this article that comes out from Yovonne and Shams. And if you read the article, you know, I know everybody just sees the headline and then reacts to the headline. That's the way things are now, right? I do have a subscription to the F-LIN. Really? That's all that happens on social media. Did you just read the headlines?

Yeah. So I actually did read the article. What a shame. It's way worse than the headline. It really is, isn't it? Yeah. There's currently, the first thing that stood out. The top 12 things that stood out.

No, this is, I mean, this was. jumps off the page because it's like it's a writer's way of saying this ain't one guy you know this ain't a source tell me now there could be protecting whoever is telling you this is this the six sources six sources with direct knowledge like what the hell what that was funny six Six sources with direct knowledge told us that they're raising questions about the head coach is standing. Six sources. How often do you read that? Six sources.

That specific number never happens. According to six sources, everybody is sick of Darwin-Hams rotation. That's something in like political journalism that you see. Fourteen sources. spoke with the Washington Post. It said those sources have described that the disjointedness between the coach of the team has stemmed from extreme rotation and starting lineup adjustments recently from Ham, leading to a fluctuating rhythm for several players across the roster.

Okay. Now, I am going to tell you this. As we've said many, many times, the hardest job in the NBA is being LeBron James coach. We know that. everybody. The only one that's ever been able to withstand it is Eric Spolstra. Right. It's not a fun existence. Braun was one of those six. He did it. He left without talking to the media that night because he was talking to them.

Well, I mean, look, and what's crazy is this dropping at, I am all for, Darwin Ham is not doing a good enough job, maybe Darwin Ham, but for whatever reason, those guys are not on board with him. It is your job to keep your best players on board with you. And when you hear their reactions, it's very disconcerting anyway. They're not hiding it. When they're asked about Darvin Ham,

they're not hiding it. I'll give you an example. I'll juxtapose it, right? So I went to that Memphis game last night, and they get beat by Toronto. Taylor Jenkins goes in there and says, this is on me. I've got to do a better job, blah, blah.

You go and ask the players. Desmond Bates, like, no, F that. We're players. We get paid $20 million. This ain't on him. We've got to close out on threes. We've got to make shots. This ain't, right?

Because they like the guy. They're on board with it. You go in the Lakers locker room and you say, hey, what do you think about, you know, you know, AR was back at the starting lineup today. Like, yeah, you know, it's really hard. You know, nobody can catch a rhythm. And it was like, you can tell they're like sneak dissing the guy all the time. We've gotten to that point with that.

and that's when you know that a coach is in trouble is when, again, you've got to have the best players on your roster on your side. That's rule number one. Rule number one of being able to survive as a coach, is having the best players of your roster on your side. I do find it interesting that this whole Darvinham thing comes out and the discontent with Darvin Ham. and because it places the blame on Darvin Ham.

That team turned the ball over 22 times. They were four for 30 from three. And it's not like they're shooting a bunch of contested ones. And LeBron had 12 points on 18 shots. Okay. It a rough night. Is Darwin Ham's fault? What?

I mean, listen, like, I think with Ham, he does deserve. 22 turnovers. Yeah, but him doesn't necessarily deserve blame for that loss against the heat. But some of the lineups that he's throwing out there, as noted in the article, with the lineup with the five forwards without Reeves or DeLoe in the starting lineup with Vanderbilt, Prince, Reddish, 80, LeBron. That was dumb on the surface. Like, Lakers fans were all over it as soon as it was announced. Like, really? You're doing this?

And it was terrible. Here's the problem, Kip. You know, you have to, as a head coach, you, the NBA players want to be, A, prepared, and B, know what to expect. Know your role. What is my role within this team? And if that is constantly fluctuating, I'm in the lineup, I'm out of the lineup. I'm in the starting lineup. I'm not in the starting lineup.

I'm Austin Reeves, and now I'm playing with A.D. and LaB.' Well, now I'm Austin Reeves, and I'm playing with Joe Blow and Cam Reddish and Jackson Hayes or whatever. And I know they've had a ton of injuries. It has made it hard. I think that it's a fair excuse in order of just settling on a rotation. Well, I mean, you're, but Hartham saying that after that game, your opponent didn't have Jimmy Butler.

Right. Well, he even excused that. He said it's easier when you down a star. I cannot believe. leave that comment. I really cannot believe it. I'm not here to tell you Darwin Ham's a good coach. I'm here to tell you

it's bullshit for that to come out. And so his days are short. It's bullshit for them to come out. They turned it over 22 times. They missed 26 of 33s. They play like dogs. LeBron doesn't guard anybody. And they get their ass kick.

And meanwhile, AD's having this amazing season. And then they leak it to Sean. that Darvin Ham is the reason that they lose. Look, I mean, he's, I don't, I don't think anybody takes that as, personally, I didn't read it as Ham is the sole reason why they lose. Of course it does. Six sources said, Darvin Ham is the reason we suck. But six sources said that Ham should not be the coach.

Not that the team doesn't need further changes. Not that the team doesn't need to make a trade and cash in their future pick and flip de-low. There's more that needs to happen besides change. changing Darvin Ham to, I don't know. They could get whoever. Who are they going to hire? Phil Handy, Doc Rivers.

Don't take Doc from Bill Simmons. I'm loving those podcasts. Get Mark Jackson. God, Mark Jackson with the Lakers would be the funniest thing. But don't take Doc from Bill. Doc's been great with the ringer. I'm really loving the Doc Pod. They can't shoot, Kevin.

They can't shoot. Exactly. So they need to make changes. They need to change the rotation. Camer does you get to pull the plug on that. I would love to see them give consistent opportunity. Say, hey, Max Christy, for the next two weeks, you're going to play 25 minutes per game. And we're going to empower you to shoot whenever you're open.

And let's see how he does. He's a 40% guy last year in the G League. He was knocked down when he got opportunities with the Lakers. He's one of those guys that fits exactly what you're talking about, where it's like, sometimes you're in, sometimes you're out. You're always playing with different guys. There's no consistency for a young player with his development. And it has not panned out for him on the court this year. but I'd like to see him get some consistent opportunity.

And he played 28 minutes last night. He had two for nine. He was not great. But I'd like to see more chances for him. I think the only one, you need to play some of your shooters. The only coach that has never been told they suck. That's Coach LeBron is probably tie lose.

I think that's it. I think that's the extent of the list in 20-something year career. Everybody else suck. And it's also possible. It's a terrible job. It just always is. I know, but it's also possible. of all ham is just a dud.

I don't think. I'm just saying that's possible. It's possible. The team should not be as bad as it's been since the season tournament. It just shouldn't be. I know that is in part due to the player performance.

But when you have Anthony Davis performing at this level. But what is LeBron performing at? What level is he performing at? I mean, LeBron was not great last night, but he still had plenty of other dominant games. Still had plenty of other great night. so he had these and they're still losing games and that's in part because of the roster they made

mistakes we see how many hockey lebron having a bunch of amazing nights and them losing really yes that's what you're like 35 points last week and they lost it like 26 8 and 8 against the wolves or whatever it was the day before new year's eve he's had some really really good games they're not better than the wolves but my point is is that i think this team is still better than they have performed. That doesn't change the fact that they still have been awful. Look, I mean, I'm, yeah, they've been better than that. They've been horrible. My point here is that I think they can be better than they've been with the existing roster. That part of that is on ham and the rotations and the choices that he's making. Part of that is due to the personnel. The Lakers offseason was not as

good as it seemed to be on the surface. Vanderbilt has not been very good. Prince is okay. Vincent was a waste. They took Hood Schafino in the drafts, and they could have taken Hame Haquez. They had a bunch of mistakes this off season that haven't panned out. And we'll see what they do ahead of the deadline. They need to make changes or else or else they're going to waste this year the 80 is having where he is playing absolutely unbelievable basketball. You can't waste this. The thing that I would 100% get on board with, the Lakers. Number one, you have to have your best players on your side and he doesn't have it.

That's the end of that. I'm not here to defend Darvin'am. Yes. Okay? Clearly, he lost the locker room. The Reeves thing is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. You got three good players on that team.

Yeah, and bringing him off the bench for 25, 25 points. No, stupid. No one of minutes for him. Really doesn't make any sense at all. You could start him at point guard and you'd be better off. Yeah. I'm not kidding. Yeah.

If you want to move off the Russell thing. Yeah. like put your three best players on the floor. Yeah. And now to go back to it. That's how you lose people. You lose people by moving Austin Reeves to the bench and then like, oh, okay, now we got to put it back at the starting line. And just feeling like you're doing dartboard rotations.

For sure. Reversing everything that was learned at the end of last season. It's just strange. It's so weird. That's dumb. That's dumb. But the most important thing is not. consult like you just have to have those you got to be on board with those guys yeah you know

you can't have them in the back of the bus saying you're an idiot because you'll lose the whole roster yeah and it feels like we're to that point mm-hmm you know shams doesn't report that unless they think that unless lebron thinks that that that's not coming out i'm not saying he's one of the six i'm saying he's one of the six but he's got five guys with him. Yeah. It might be their top six guys. I don't care.

It might be. Six horses. O.D. That's so damn funny, dude. So funny. Oh, man. Oh, well, look, we're going to get to see them. If there's any team they love kicking the shit out of, it's the Grizzlies.

And they play them tomorrow night. So maybe they'll get back on track. Austin Reeves going for 50 tomorrow. I hope not. But you never know. Like, they've been in a bad way. And now that article, it's going to cause, it's going to go one way or the other. And I do find it interesting that LeBron's listed is questionable for the game.

Oh, yeah, I know. That is intriguing. Are they going to let this thing bomb out and force them to make a decision on it? Also, the timing of all of this. I forget who reported this specifically or who said it might have been Yovon on a podcast saying it. But it sounds like this homestand is critical for the Lakers here. So you talk about timing. They lose against the heat on Wednesday,

but now they have Friday against the Grizzlies, Sunday against the Clippers, Tuesday against the Raptors, Thursday against the Suns before they go back on the road. This is a big, big homestand here. Maybe by the time we're recording next Thursday's podcast, Lakers Suns, we'll have some clarity on this Darvindham situation.

Maybe they'll have won some games in a row. Maybe they lose all of them, and he's long gone. Yeah, we just know the way this works. I mean, you remember the whole, you know, the whole, who was the one that all of the stuff came? Was it Lloyd Pierce or Nate McMillan? Anytime we see this, anytime you get the article, the athletic has got a bunch of people telling you that people aren't on board with the guy anymore, you're in trouble. Yeah, you're in big, big, big trouble.

Yeah, that's, that usually, usually don't get that corrected. Yep. You know, congratulations. Mark Jackson. You were the Lakers head coach. What if they hire, like, do you think they'll go within the assistant coach's that they have? Or do you think they'll hire somebody from outside? Because like, I don't know, like Bootintholzer or somebody like that, you think they could do that? That's Darwin Ham's mentor. No. That would be hilarious.

No, he wouldn't even, I bet he wouldn't even take the job. I'm not kidding. You think he'd pass it up? I think you pass it up too. Go get Jeff Van Gundy. Just go get the real thing. Yeah, Van Gogh. Go get Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Jackson.

Yeah, I was going to say, get both of them. Can you imagine? Just let LeBron coach the team. Coach LeBron. Yeah, let him do the Bill Russell thing, coach player coach. Might as well. It'd be kind of a cool chapter.

Everybody talks about his, you know, basketball IQ, let him coach him. For the last four months of the season, just let him coach. Yeah. That's a good idea. what I want. I want player coach LeBron so he can accomplish everything. Jordan never player coached. What if it worked?

What if he were a brilliant head coach? It would not. I know, but let's just pretend it did work. What if he was amazing? It would be awesome. It would be pretty cool. It would be awesome to have a player coach at the EPA in 2024. It would be so cool.

In 2024, that would be hilarious. Who was the last player coach? You know, the ones that are. or famous or like Russell, right? Yeah, like who's the last one? I don't know if there was, you'd probably Google it. Who was the last player coach in the NBA? Wikipedia opened right now.

Let's see. Last player coach. Dave Cowens, 1978, 79 season for the Boston Celtics. Dave Cowens. That's the last player coach. Dave Cowens was player coach. Dave Cowens.

That's pretty cool. That's wild. That's wild. All right. Well, Kevin, happy new year. It's always fun. We'll be having a bunch of pods over the course of the next several weeks leading up to as this thing gets more fast and furious that we get towards a trade deadline. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always.

Kim, I'll talk to you next week. Looking forward to whatever we'll do. Must be 21 plus in present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino, LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit Fandul.com slash RG. In Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Vermont, and Virginia. In Arizona, call 1-100 next step or text next step to 533-4-2.2. In Connecticut, call 1-88-9-77-77-77.7-77.7-17.7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7. In Indiana, and Indiana, call 1-800.9-9 with it. In Indiana, call 1-800-5-2-2-4-1.com. In Louisiana, call 1-8707-stop.

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