The Mismatch - How the Suns Got Better and Four Young NBA Teams Close to Finals Contention

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

Welcome to The Void! Kevin O'Connor brings you deep inside the NBA with the people who know it best. In this episode, KOC is joined by Mike Vigil and Sam Cooper from 'The Timeline: A Phoenix Suns Podcast' to discuss the rise of the Suns franchise. They discuss how Chris Paul completely changed his style of play (03:06) and the improvement of Deandre Ayton (09:17). KOC is all aboard the Payne train, as they discuss the perfect bench pairing of Cameron Payne and JaVale McGee (13:46) before diving into Mikal Bridges‘s route to DPOY (15:35). They point to Devin Booker’s efficiency as a reason for his overall improvement (24:16). The guys look around the association to see which teams are a few moves away from contending. KOC makes a bold statement about Cavs rookie Evan Mobley, but Sam believes he could be on to something (32:25). Also, they discuss how James Harden could benefit from taking more midrange jumpers (45:40). Lastly, they debate what, if any, moves the Suns can make down the stretch (52:32). Host: Kevin O'Connor Guests: Mike Vigil and Sam Cooper Producers: Jessie Lopez and Dylan Berkey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football is back, and so is the Ringer NFL show. Coming at you five days a week with wall-to-wall coverage from recapping the Sunday games, giving a player perspective, deep dives, and previewing the coming slate. Check out the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Kevin O'Connor. Thank you for listening to The Void. My new podcast airing every Wednesday on the mismatch podcast feed. My shows of Chris Vernon on The Mismatch will remain the same every Tuesday and Friday, focusing on the news of the day, games that happened the night before, and storylines around the NBA. this show will involve some deeper dives into NBA teams,

a topic, an idea, whatever it might be with my friends from around sports. And this is essentially going to be a podcast version of my video series that you've heard me discuss with Vernor over the years. And it also means that you now get us four times per week, at least, on Ringer podcast, because you can also hear Verno talking NFL with Warren Sharp every Monday on the Ringer Gambling show. Anyway, let's get to the first episode. Today, we're going deep into the Phoenix.

sons and what makes them even better than last season. We're going to talk about four teams ready to go from young and promising to potential contender, like the Cavaliers and the Timberwolves. We're talking about the state of James Hardin and also some other stuff like the evolution of the NBA Big Man and where that position is going. I really love today's conversation and I hope you do too. Here's my conversation with two of the best analysts covering the NBA host of the Timeline podcast, Mike V. Hill and Sam Cooper.

What's going on, guys? How you doing? Oh man, I'm so excited to be on here talking with you again, Kevin. We really appreciate. You've been repping the Sons for a while. Like we like to remember the people that have been repping the Sons for a while. So I'm just really appreciative for you for bringing us on. This is an insane opportunity, KOC.

Super stoked to be here. Fresh off the 18 game win streak obviously had to end in an unfortunate way. But we know you're always excited to talk some Sons basketball, and we are more than happy to oblige. So it should be fun. I mean, when we first met, they were the bright future sons. sons. Yeah. Absolutely. Now they are the right now sons. And we

just saw those sons go to the NBA finals. 18 game winning streak. They're still top tier in the league. Top 10 offensive rating. Top 5 defensive rating. They're even better than last season. Similar style, but a little bit of a different flavor, which is why I wanted to bring you guys on today to discuss. Mike, I'll start

with you here. What has changed or maybe evolved about the sons this season compared to their finals run? Well, I think there's two things that we talked about a lot during the off season that we thought was going to benefit the suns, especially early in the season. And one of them is like bringing back the majority of the same core. Like it's almost all of the same guys outside of basically Javelle McGee, Landry Shamet. So, you know, we call that continuity, of course. And then internal development is another thing that we've talked about a lot.

And that's just young guys getting better. You know, that I think has helped them a lot. But as far as like what's actually changed on the court. I think a big thing for the Sons has been pace. You know, we've been watching everyone that's an NBA fan has been watching Chris Paul play for a long time now. And one thing that we know about him, or I guess we knew about him, is that he likes to play slow.

And for whatever reason, I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks, as they say. 36 years old, Chris Paul is now playing at one of the fastest pace of his career. The Sons are 24th in Pace last season. People always assume the Sons play fast because of the sun. They were like the team that played fast for a long time. Last year they didn't. This year so far, they're fourth in pace. And that's actually a surprising change.

It's not something that we expected. But I do think it's something that benefits a lot of the young guys on the team. Whether that be Mikhail Bridges, who's like a beast in transition. Of course, Devin Booker, who's really great in transition as well, or even like DeAndre Aitin, who's gotten very good at sprinting down the court and sealing on any sort of cross match that's available, since the big men are usually going for the rebound on the other end, and they get the ball to him in transition just right under the basket, which is one of the best shots they can take. So pace has been a big, big thing that they've

changed so far this season. Yeah, just to echo that, I really think it all starts with Chris Paul. Just to put the stat out there, the second highest pace of his career for any team was back in 2013-14, Kev with the Clippers when he was seventh. That was the only other time in Chris Paul's career he's been a top 10 pace and the vast majority of seasons he's been below league average. So, you know, I heard you and Verno talk the other week about Steph Curry changing his rotation patterns and the things that make the greatest guys great is their willingness to change. We've seen that with Chris Paul this year and he's really been the catalyst for the sons in the half court. That's a great point about how Chris Paul, even at his advanced age, he could retire today. He's a Hall of Famer.

And even now, he's still willing to adapt and do things a little bit differently in order to elevate all the talents of the guys around him. Like you mentioned Bridges in there, who is having a clear first team all defense. defensive season. He's creating all these defense to offense opportunities. It makes sense to play fast. You got DeAndre Aiton, who is just absolutely fantastic at embracing his role playing in transition. There was the play.

I tweeted it out last week. It was a play where DeAndre Aiton out of the ball to Chris Paul. Chris Paul starts the break, slows down a little bit around the three point line. Aiton comes sprinting up the floor. Doesn't receive

the ball, but he draws the defense. in that open of Jay Crowder for a wide open three-pointer was such a simple little play. It was such a simple thing. Aiton doesn't get any credit in the box score for that. But it was just the way all the pieces kind of fit together and how Chris Paul is at the center of that kind of orchestrating everything. With them playing faster, has Monty Williams talked at all about this being a coordinated shift in their philosophy? Or is this just something that seems like it's happening naturally with the way they're playing on the court this year? has talked about it in the past is something that they felt like got them a little bit bogged down

at certain points in the playoffs last year and that he needed to have conversations with Chris to adapt to that and really understand how to best leverage the talent that they have when you have young wings like McAil Bridges, Cam Johnson leaking out. Devin Booker, his shot profile has changed immensely and a lot of that has to do with subtle little things they're doing in the half court kev, but also in transition, I think a lot of it has to do with getting him more looks in transition, getting him more corner threes, and he's responded with the best three-point shooting percentage of his career as well. You mentioned Aiton, getting him to really embrace the physicality like he never has before, seal hard, seal early. When you have this many young players, you have to be willing to change and

do the things that will get you over the hump. And yeah, I'm just really glad to see it in action because Monty understands it for sure and Chris understands it as well. Yeah, it's kind of funny to hear you ask if Monty talked about it because really he spent all of last year talking about it. It's just they were 29th in pace the majority of the season. And Monty kept talking about how they wanted to play faster. They wanted to play faster. They wanted to play faster. By the end of the season, they ended at 24th, right?

You can't really jump the standings that much. But slowly throughout the season, they played a little bit faster, a little bit faster. But truthfully, I think it's something that Chris Paul is just not that comfortable doing. I think the way that Chris Paul usually approaches the game is play every single game as if it's a playoff game. It's not really like a, we're going to run fast in the regular season. But when that doesn't work in the playoffs, all of a sudden you're not ready to play in the half court. I think Chris Paul likes to play in the half court. And I think for the Sons, it's actually benefited them that last year they played so slow.

You know, a lot of people are talking about how good they've been in the clutch so far this season. I think that an entire season of playing at a snail's pace helps you in the clutch time of games because it slows down so much that now they're not. not like, oh, I'm not used to not running. You know, you've seen teams that run young teams. And then it comes down to clutch time and all of a sudden they can't generate a good shot because they're not used to half court offense. I think the sun's found the way to like get good at that half court slow pace stuff. And then sort of now match that with playing faster throughout the game, slowing it down when the clock is on your side at the end of the game. I really do think that the clutch stats, which are very good for the sons if people haven't seen them, I think a lot of

that is because of how they played last season and now they can do both, which is kind of nice. And with, you know, DeAndre and everybody saw last season, especially during the playoffs when everybody, you know, is tuning into Phoenix in their run, they saw DeAndre and become a brand new player. I brought it every single night. I think even for you guys

over the course of last season, it's like, well, can he bring the intensity every single night? And he did during the playoffs with his defense, with his rim running, screening in the half-core, screen and rolling. Is he doing anything different this? season. I mean, obviously Robert Sarver didn't

give him the money over the offseason. Has Aiton shown any progress as either a defender or as somebody in the half court and in terms of what he does, given his limited role as a screener and a roller and a finisher inside? Right. Well, it's actually kind of interesting because defensively,

I wouldn't say that he's drastically different than last season, but I think he reached a point about February of last season where he just became a really great defender, but consistently good night after night. And that's exactly what the Sun's needed. You're talking about sprinting down the floor.

For Aitin, it's always been the little things like that, sprinting down the floor even when you're not getting the ball or, you know, switching out onto it like somebody like Steph Curry, blocking his three-point shot, something you never see, especially by his center. Like DeAndre Aiton, and I think actually for the Suns, interestingly, something that they've done is they have shown more trust in DeAndre Aiton so far this season. And what I mean by that is the Suns actually went from 19th in steals last season to fourth in steals this season. And even deflections, they were 20th in deflections last season, they're 12th this season.

And I actually think that's a good illustration of the trust that they now have in DeAndre Aitin's backline defense. And he even plays into pace like we were just talking about. Creating turnovers for those transition opportunities. Yeah. Exactly. Now that they feel like somebody's back, they're consistently able to. help if they gamble too much for steals, they feel more comfortable in those passing lanes. You know, when Kelly Ubre was on the team, the sons were at the top of the league and deflections,

they were just all over the place. Last year, they were more conservative. I think they were trying to get DeAndre Aiton up to a place where they felt comfortable. Now, with Aiton just being solid, consistent on defense, they feel more comfortable sort of reaching into those passing lanes and, you know, getting, and it's working, you know, up in deflections, up in steel. So far, so good. Sam, how about on offense for Aitin? Yeah, on the offensive end, you can't talk about DeAndre Aden without talking about the short role.

It's been a huge thing. When you look at the roster construction of the Sons right now, and you look at some of the more unfortunate things that are going on, playing without Dario Sharge, playing without Frank Kaminsky. For as good as Javelle McGee has been at stepping into the backup role, gobbling up offensive rebounds, the Sons are struggling to find at times that guy who can operate within the short role and really break down mismatches, find two-on-ones, three-on-toes with his passing.

And so it's been critical for D'Andre to develop as a short-roll playmaker and more specifically, a short-roll finisher. Because we know you've watched plenty of D'And through his first three years. We know he's struggled to really put the ball on the floor and show that initiative offensively that you kind of want to see from guys if you want to have the belief that they're going to be a true offensive hub. Not just a rim runner, but really a hub of the offense when you're talking about not so much right now for the Sons, but the post-Christ Paul years and what a Sons team looks like in the post-Christ Paul years. And so just to demonstrate that with a stat, last season, the entire year, DeAndre Aiton had 15 drives in the entire season. This year so far, he's got 11, the recorder of the year. Wow. And it's like, I don't want to throw that out.

Like, people will say, oh, 11 drives. That means he's driving like half. It means he's driving like half a time per game. So, you know, it's not to insinuate that he's a towns or an Embedd or a Yoka chess type of offensive hub talent now. but it gives you this idea that he is driving at three or four times the rate of last year. Sometimes the results are mixed. Sometimes it looks really ugly when he drives the rim. But it's something that level of initiative is something we absolutely need to see out of DeAndre Aden

to ensure the highest possible ceiling for this team going forward. And I'm glad it's been a point that the coaching staff has really stressed to him. I feel like all the improvements Aiton's made over the years. He's just a winner. Through and through. Yeah. I mean, he enters the league out of Arizona. There's questions about his heart.

his maturity and his will to, you know, do all the little things, his ability to read the floor, all the basics. And what is he now? That's what he's the best at is the basics, setting screens, rolling to the rim, crashing the boards, making kickout passes, making just immediate outlet passes to Chris Paul or Devin Booker or Cameron Payne, whoever the guard is on the court, all these little things that, like when I tweeted that playout last week that I mentioned earlier about him just running the floor, opening an open shot for Jay Crow.

there, like a lot of people got it. They're like, yeah, this is great basketball. Some people were like, this is like basic stuff. But basic stuff doesn't happen all the time on your fifth time running up and down the court in the fourth quarter in your 30th minute. It just doesn't happen all the time. Watch bad teams. And having Javille and McGee this year is huge. I mean, Javille and McGee has just been fantastic this season, him and Cameron Payne, Sam, right now you're wearing a shirt.

The pain train. it's Thomas the tank engine but the Payne train it's a wonderful shirt Cameron Payne and Javelle McGee they rank in the 75th percentile as a pick and roll duo according to the second spectrum in points

scored per chance with McGee screening for pain obviously early in the season that's minimum 100 possessions log together but pain to McGee I mean those guys on a bench unit have been really terrific together and that helps Phoenix as well something he was really good at something people didn't expect

was a pull-up three-point shot. Last year he was one of the better pull-up three-point shooters on the Suns. And now he has Javel McGee setting those screens and it's not going in so far. Once that actually comes back, I think that that dynamic between those two is going to get even better.

Isn't it kind of a perfect pairing? Javel McGee, a guy who for many years people considered an absolute bust, a total bum, and then he becomes a championship winner three times with different franchise. But also we've seen him with such a weird arc recently. Like, you know, Cleveland, Denver last year, he was shooting threes.

And then he comes to Phoenix and they just, they'd rain him in. They've refined his game. I'm not here to suggest that Javella's like the best backup center in the league or anything based, but he's playing really well based on his play. And it's just the simple stuff, drop defense, conservative defense, and rim running an offense. And he's done a tremendous job. And he's embracing his role campaign, embracing the role off the bench, another guy who

seemed like a bust early on. They seem like a perfect match together. I want to talk about defense. You guys mentioned how the defense has been more aggressive this season, willing to take more risks and all that. I'm just going to ask, Mike, straight up, why is McElbridge as the defense player of the year? Wow. Yeah. I mean, I would love that for that to happen.

I guess I've gotten to the point where I don't have, I don't know, I have very little faith in voters to vote on non-bigman. I'll ask you. I'll turn it right back on you, Kevin. Why is it that voters? And maybe it's entirely, I know that you and Verno talks about this as well, maybe it's entirely because of the data and there's the way that the defensive data works. But why is it that voters seem to be convinced that the help defense role, basically, is more important than the point of attack defensive role. Because, you know, it's tough for me to say that, you know, often we talked about this on our last podcast, often jazz fans, when they talk about Rudy Gobert in the playoffs. and if anyone ever points out to a jazz fan

that Rudy Gobert was, I don't know, played badly in the playoffs if you want to say it. They always say, oh, it's because the point of attack defenders were, you know, hanging him out to dry or whatever. And that synergy, I think, matters. Why do you think that voters always seem to lean towards Big Men? I just think it's the amount of actions they're involved in, whether it's as a primary defender

or whether it is as a help defender. Like, those combined, they're just always in place. And, you know, I think watching Rudy Gober against the Cavs over the game, the weekend. I mean, it was just a reminder of the importance of having a guy who can do everything on the court. And in Gobert, I still think a lot of people, their perception of him is rooted in Steph Curry putting him in the spin cycle years ago. It's rooted in that. I still think that has a lot to do with the way people perceive him today, even though he has gotten way better as a perimeter

defender switch than. He's more mobile than he was. And he was also hurt that series many years ago. But like, I also played devil's advocate with myself here. Like we talk about Riegobert. Yes, you're right. He is in the business of cleaning up the mistakes of Joe Engels, of Bogdanovich, of Conley, of Mitchell, guys on the perimeter defense for the Utah Jazz. And he erases a lot of those mistakes.

Like I said, against Cleveland over the weekend, he was everywhere on the core. There was one position where he contested like four shots in a matter of 15, 20 seconds. It was insane. But point of attack defense is also insanely valuable. You don't need someone to clean up mistakes if you have somebody at the top of your defense who's bothering an action,

who's stopping that handoff from happening cleanly and causing it the ball handler to bobble it, and then having the offense having to reset, you can cause a lot of issues to happen on the perimeter. And that's where McCall Bridges is, if not the best, he is absolutely one of the best at that. And like right now, I'd have my top two,

Gobert, Dremont, and Summerwater. McHell Bridges is right there, man. He is in consideration for me. You're not just telling us that? No, I'm not just telling us that. I mean, he is a no-brainer first team all defense guy this year. He's better than last season. He was great last season.

Yeah. This year he's even better. How was Bridges improved? Well, it's interesting. Are you talking defense or offense right now? Defense. Yeah, on defense, because with offense, we haven't quite seen the role we were expecting. On defense, I mean, I think really it just goes back without going full gung-ho for the

defensive player of the year thing right now. No, no, no, no, no. Really, I won't because I understand. both sides of the argument. But overall, it's going to be so interesting because I think it's a litmus test of how voters evaluate event creation on defense versus the intangible aspects of that entire side of the court. And again, you and Verno talked about this, but you know his steel numbers are up. His block numbers are up. They're still not the gaudy, like, he's not averaging two and a half steals per game that maybe you would expect to really draw that level of attention.

What he's gotten so good at is, for instance, his screen navigation, he has to be among the best in the NBA. And it makes him such a dangerous pairing with DeAndre Aiton. The fact that the Sons can be playing DeAndre Aten, who is switchable on the perimeter, but primarily in a drop scheme where Mikhail Bridges has to go around those screens and Aiton is dropping back to protect the rim. And what Bridges has gotten so good at in those actions, obviously when it's a guard-to-guard, a wing-to-wing action, he just switches and he plays straight-up defense, guards the, you know,

ISO defense and he's good. But with Aiton and those actions, he's gotten so good at kind of Mr. Fantasticing himself through those tight spaces, the way that he navigates into those spaces. And a lot of times he can get through and navigate that space while still being entirely in the play. And if he has to trail the play, then that's where the 7-1 wingspan comes in. And he can trail to play a little bit and still contests from behind. So he just, you know, it's cliche to say.

But with his length, he just bothers people constantly. And I think he's always been really good at it. But he has taken up the screen navigation, the communication, the little intangible stuff that I can't point at any one single statistic at and say that he's really become elite, truly elite at all of those areas this year. I also think that people tend to underrate how much of a difference it makes for players to start understanding other star players' tendencies and how that takes season after season, you know, playing these guys over and over and over again.

By the way, McKell Bridges has not missed a game since middle school. He's played every single game. I like to bring up the stat because it matters with him. Was almost in jeopardy. was almost in jeopardy the other night, by the way. Yeah, right. He dislocated his pinky and went back into the game, psychopath. But understanding their tendencies, like, for him, you could just see that he knows what players

want to do and he's doing his best to bother that. I also think his versatility on defense, he's gotten a little bit stronger. And I think that's helped him out a lot. I referenced this recently. But against the Dallas Mavericks, Luca didn't play normally when the sons play the Mavericks. He has one job, right? bother Luca as much as possible. Jalen Brunson was essentially the number one option,

along with Chris Staps, Porzingis. As that game rolled along, he guarded both of them, and he was the best defender on both of those guys. There's not a lot of guys that can guard Brunson who's small and KP, who's tall. Maybe he plays small, but he's still tall.

As well, yeah, as well as McKell did. I think it's just remarkable to see somebody do that that well. I mean, you have me thinking about who are the best point of attack defenders. There's Caruso. Yeah. Fible, Philly.

Yeah. Melton. Memphis is really, really good. Drew Hall and in a course. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy Butler, uh, DeJante Murray.

Herb Jones. Shout out to the Pelicans. Herb Jones, the one bright spot. I mean, Bridges, like he combines the risk taking, you know, the ability to fight over screens of a fibrill. He combines the, the ability to be a playmaker, like a Caruso. So, and he just has the fundamentals as well. Like you said, he doesn't rack up blocks and steals,

but you don't have to do that to make an impact. He just has all of these qualities. And I think, I don't, and I wonder if maybe the way in which NBA media and NBA fans are talking about defense, because there's a lot of Caruso talk this year. I mean, there's like a lot of conversation about some of these great perimeter defenders across the NBA.

I wonder if maybe that shifts things in a direction towards, oh yeah it's actually the guys defending the primary ball handlers who should be the leading candidates for defensive player of the year not the guys who are on the back line and i don't necessarily think that's right i don't necessarily agree with it i'm not totally sure the way i feel because defense is a complicated thing it's it's five people on the court working together the truth is you can't have one without the other i mean because every perimen or defender is going to get beat at some point and you've got to have aaton back there to help you got to have go bear back there to help whoever it might be but all the Also, there's only so much that guy could do at getting a stop at the rim when there's so many elite finishes with floaters and, you know, offhand wrong foot finishes around the rim. There's only so much they can do. And stopping the guy from even getting into the pain is critically important as well. So, I mean, in a way, like defensive player of the year is just kind of a flawed award of that sense. You know, because defense is a five-man operation, whereas offense, it can be two or three or five, but a lot of the time it's just one. just one guy.

And it's very easy to read that, whereas defense, it's not. I mean, like, even with Devin Booker, with Booker, I believe Sam,

you mentioned earlier how he's made some tweaks on the offensive end, getting more corner threes. How has he become a more refined offensive player? Because last year, the beginning of the season,

there was some of like the Paul, Booker fit. They were working things out, developing chemistry, and they were obviously flying by the playoffs. Now they're starting the year with a full year

under their belt. How is their chemistry really enhanced Booker's game to an even higher level? It's so funny because I think we were just talking about this on the podcast we recorded. And I think NBA fans so frequently don't know this about Devin Booker because he puts up the superstar numbers still. He's become incredibly efficient. But the way that the Suns used Devin Booker now is obviously nothing like the way they used him two or three years ago when they were a terrible team. But even compared to the year with Ricky Rubio when he had a stabilizing press. presence in the half court for the first time, and also even compared to last year, his first year

with Chris Paul. He's playing a reduced role. He looks like a superstar. He plays like a superstar. He certainly shows up like a superstar in the clutch. But if you actually look at the NBA's tracking data, if you actually look at the amount of touches per game out of Devin Booker Kev, if I asked you to guess who averages more touches per game in the NBA this season, Devin Booker or Royce O'Neill? Who do you think it is? Don't tell me it's actually Royce O'Neill. It's actually Royce O'Neill. Devin Booker. Devin Booker is averaging only 52 touches per game this season.

That's 92nd in the NBA. And you look at the fact that he still averages 24 points per game and it speaks to the efficiency. He's a guy who has actually led the league in this stat of the most points per touch. Two years straight and has consistently been up there with the likes of Kevin Durant, Kauai Leonard. The types of guys we think of as like the mid-range killers, the real finishers. He has the ISO possessions. but it is not a heliocentric approach at all with Devin Booker anymore.

He entrusts Chris Paul to do his thing, his Chris Paul thing, of running the offense to the greatest degree. And obviously, like I said earlier, there have been some little tweaks, the development of McHale Bridges, the development of Cam Johnson to be able to occasionally attack closeouts, hit mid-range shots. That's allowed Monty Williams to use Devin Booker increasingly as an off-ball shooter, kind of like he didn't have an opportunity to do since his very, very early days as a son back in like 2015, 2016.

But overall, it's just a more balanced approach. It's kind of more like a 50-50 type thing. Whereas Booker came into the league, we thought he was just going to be a spot-up shooter. Obviously, that went out the window. Compared to Clay Thompson. That's what people compared Booker to. Right.

And that went out the window within like four months. Then we got to a certain point around 2018, 2019, its fourth year in the league. The sons were still losing games, but we thought, hey, maybe just give him the ball 100 times a game and see what happens. And that's when the whole point. The Harden Comp, exactly. And that's when the whole point book thing happened back when De Anthony Melton, for instance, who you mentioned before was on The Suns. It was like, why not just take book, put him a point guard and surround him with a bunch of switchable wings or good defensive-minded players, see if you can build around that. Well, that's not exactly happening anymore either. Because now you've got 48 minutes of point card play going to Chris Paul and campaign. He's found just the most flawless ways of balancing the act, which is such a tough line to walk. But he's, he really is playing. And you may not notice it. If you just.

just go and look at his stat page, but I really do believe he's playing the best basketball of his career this season. Who are the other teams in the NBA right now that are one or two or three moves away, plus some young youth development from making that leap like Phoenix did to, you know, not just, oh, we're fun and exciting, but, oh, we actually have a shot to do something special here. So I want to go around the horn here with each of us, and we're going to share a team who we think fits into the, that criteria of the next sons. Mike,

you want to go first? I love the blueprint that we're a blueprint. Yeah, I like that. Credit, it's James Jones, yeah. Yeah, yeah. James Jones has been fantastic. Yeah, really. Who you got? Yes, first of all, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to talk about one of my favorite teams in the league so far this season, and that's the Cleveland Cavaliers. Oh, yeah.

Who have been, you know, incredibly fun. And also, I think it's fun to use them as a comparison for the Sons because, like, as good as some of the players are on the calves and even the Sons, like their good play as of late is not because like a singular superstar that's just overachieving over and over and over again. That's not to say that Darius Garland hasn't been amazing or Jared Allen hasn't been amazing, but like in the last 10 games, they have seven guys averaging double figures for the calves. So like this is a team that is coming together really well and playing together really well as a team. And I actually had fun watching them last season.

I think they took a lot of heat last season. And they were fun. But then you add a guy like Evan Mobley, and it just gets so much more fun to watch. And what a luxury for Evan Mobley. Like usually teams draft young bigs, as we saw the sons do with DeAndre Aiton, and they have to simplify their defensive schemes

to let a young big sort of learn his way into NBA defense. The Cavs, they drafted Evan Mobleyton. Mowgli and he can just do it all like already he can switch you know he has the ability of trapping he can guard guys in the perimeter and that allows him to play multiple positions they put him all the way up at the three you can play the four you can play the five

you can do it all and what a fun team to watch I want to ask you though and sorry Cavs fans for doing this I want to ask you Kevin Isaac Okoro who's been playing well for this team really good defensively I was going through some stats and looking at it

and in the restricted area so far this season he's shooting 62% like it's 22% or something like that from three. Not good so far from three. But like even in the paint and not in the restricted area,

he's won for 19 on those attempts. Man. And yeah, basically he's shooting 20% on 74 non-restricted area shots so far this season. So outside of that tiny little circle under the rim,

Isaac Okoro has not really quite found a way to score. And you know, we're talking about sort of the next level for them. Obviously, he joins a long line of wings that if they could just shoot, you know, that everything would be a lot better for them. What do you think the Cavs are going to do with Isaac Okoro? I mean, I think about Cleveland and we're talking about like one or two or three pieces away.

Finding a guy who can score at that position is definitely the priority here. I mean, you've got Mowgli who can defend every position. You've got Jared Allen who's a great room protector. Garland is getting better every year. There's not a lot of evidence. that Ocora is going to figure out the perimeter. Yeah. It's just not.

At Auburn, he wasn't a good shooter. In high school, he wasn't a good shooter. He's a slightly below average free throw shooter. Maybe that's the one piece of evidence you can look at and say, hey, maybe he can become a 33, 34% spot-up three-point shooter where he's not, you know, horrible, but he's passable. And I think, you know, look at the way a Bruce Brown is. for Brooklyn or the way a Gary Payton is with Golden State,

I still think there's a role for non-shooters in the NBA. Yeah. And so even if O'Coro doesn't figure it out from the perimeter, with the right personnel it can work for him, does that work in Cleveland where they have Allen and Mowgli and marketing with this jumbo-sized front court? Yeah. Maybe not.

It might not work for him in Cleveland, but I still think O'Coro specifically can have a role. And as you said, he's already very good defensively. and like they're switching their number one in the NBA and points allowed when they switch screens according to second spectrum. When Mowbly defends an isolation, he's third in the league allowing 0.7 points per ISO.

Crazy. That's third of the 47 guys who have defended at least 60 isolations this season. Mowbly, I was thinking about him last night, is he is, with the way he does everything well, he can handle, he can pass, he doesn't make mistakes, You can shoot, he can finish inside using either hand. He can defend multiple positions.

He's smart. He can defend at the rim. He can help. He can be your point of attack guy with size. Is he the Gen Z Tim Duncan? Oh, Evan Mowgli? Oh, my goodness. Does he have a chance?

He does. He does have a chance. But I think the question now is we have to wait and see. It's, first of all, it's just the fact that the lineup is working. Like, you've pointed out the net ratings in the past. I think it's like a plus five per 100 possessions, I want to say, with the three of them on the floor. Alan, Mark, and Mobley. And that's because Mobley's nasty.

Yeah, exactly. He does have a chance to get there. What I'm interested in seeing now is based on his development path and based on the development path of other bigs and the NBA, is this just a really, really fun gimmick? Or is this the future? Are the Cavs stumbling upon? And this is a really big word to use. So I almost apologize for using it.

But like revolutionizing the NBA in a way, is there a chance that like 10 years from now half of the NBA has a big mobile enough to do something like this. I think, I mean, there's a real chance that this is where the NBA is going. Because think about, think about the way bigs have developed. Bigs never used to shoot threes. And then, you know, they started shooting spot up threes. And now you're seeing some guys do shoot threes off the dribble. They're becoming more and more adept on the perimeter on offense.

Maybe the next step is for more and more. of guys like in the Evan Mobley, Jaron Jackson Jr. role with the ability to switch onto the perimeter and comfortably defend guards and wings, these quick, speedy players, to navigate through screens and fight over or under,

maybe that's the next step. I mean, and like, we'll see how this next wave of guys like Paulo Bancaro this coming year, Chad Holmgren, Victor Wanban Yamah, the following year after that, there's, you know, three plus bigs with this kind of

versatile skill set coming out. And I mean like teams can only build with the players that they have. And what we have now is a league with a lot of talented bigs who can do a lot of things on the perimeter. So I mean, I definitely think there's a chance. But you're also going to have some pokus. There you go. That's true. It's very true.

Maybe poku works out, but it's not looking good right now through year two. I think the biggest thing with the cat, as I watch the calves, I think the biggest thing, that sticks out to me as far as what they could do specifically this season. Say they stand pad and they stay together. They're content with understanding that as Evan Mobley gets better, the entire team will get better. Of course, they have Colin Sexton coming back at some point. You know, they're probably going to make the playoffs.

I don't know. The East is interesting. There's so many good teams right now. Who knows if they're going to be able to make the playoffs at some point? I wonder as things get really tight at the end of games and maybe your first, your second option, don't exactly work in plays. Who's going to be their main isolation score

that's capable of getting them to wins over and over and over again? Darius Garland, I think, has shown that he can do that. It would be incredibly exciting if Evan Mobley could do that. You know, if you're a Cavs fan, of course, even Chetty Osmond sometimes is capable of just getting just white-hot for five minutes and keeping them in a game. But that's going to be, as you talk about them improving, you know, maybe it's just internal.

Maybe it's just one of these guys becomes one. of those guys or maybe it's something they're going to have to go shopping for outside of their own team. Sam, who do you got for your team? But that's up next. My team unfortunately fell to one game below 500 again with their last game. It was a very hard-fought game against a contending team. The Minnesota Timberwolves, and I know many people have been burned before by the Minnesota Timberwolves, but this time, a couple things you were saying earlier. First of all, you talked about the value of a non-shooting big who can still exist. And what better example to exemplify that than Jared Vanderbilt.

Let's go. I love his game so much. It's become such an integral part of my brand on Twitter. So people who follow me on Twitter are going to laugh. But I really do love Jared Vanderbilt. I feel like if he was on Golden State or the Lakers, within two weeks, there would be a mass media campaign to get Jared Vanderbilt on an all defensive team. Because his combination of event creation, the steals, the blocks, the weak side defense,

being able to match up. The rebounds. I mean, generational rebounding potential, truly generational. But also the way he matched up against a guy like K. on Friday. It was a hard-fought loss. They lost. But they were on the road. They were without Carl Anthony Towns. And, you know, KD did his thing in the fourth quarter. No one can stop him. But I would feel as comfortable in that matchup with Vanderbilt bothering him with his length as I would about any other potential guy you could throw on him. But, you know, Vanderbilt is a small piece of the pie.

Really, the other thing you talked about is sometimes you just need to find the guy. And month by month, Anthony Edwards gets a little bit better. And if you look at his last 10 games, he's shooting 45% from the field, 36% from deep, 84% from the free throw line. Not the craziest splits you've ever seen, but for a guy who we've seen specifically has struggled with some elements of his decision making, some elements of his shot selection to date. At such a young age, his efficiency is improving month by month. They've got the high octane scores. They've got multiple bigs with ball skills. Nas Reid came in for towns in that Friday game, played a hell of a game, had 19 points, isn't afraid to put the ball on the floor, dribble it a little bit. They've got issues,

specifically on the wing. They're not a good shooting team. They need to add more shooters if they actually want to improve their offensive ceiling enough to get anywhere. But the foundation is there, and I really do feel great about the Timberwolves for the first time and long time. You mentioned they need more wing shooting, more wing scoring. Yeah, the one guy that they've been connected to in trades is Ben Simmons. Would that be a mistake? that's interesting. Who's the main piece? Doesn't Vanderbilt kind of sort of fill the role that you would want as the wing stopper?

I would certainly rather have Vanderbilt for $4 million. Like honestly, NBA front offices should be ashamed that they didn't go harder after this guy in the summer. I would much rather have Vanderbilt for $4 million than Simmons for $30 if that's, you know, kind of the comparison you're drawing. And I think there are easier ways. Look, every team in the NBA needs three and D wings. It's not the easiest thing to just go out there and get. But like looking at the roster, they're playing Akogi minutes still. It's year four.

He never figured it out. Tarian Prince can't make a bucket to save his life. I can't help but feel that this is a top 10 team in defensive rating. You look right now, they're a top 10 team in defensive rating, which, by the way, given what a lot of people have said about Carl Anthony Towns in the past means a lot of people need to apologize if that holds. Yeah. I can't help but feel just a couple of 35, 36 percent average shooting wings would really

take this team a huge way. I don't necessarily think Ben Simmons is the answer, although I understand the idea to go and acquire more top end talent. A cat Simmons front court's really intriguing. It sounds fascinating, yeah. It is. It is. Especially if you're able to retain D-Lo and the deal, then you can still

use Simmons in a screening role. Towns is one of the best shooters in all the basketball ever. I don't care just about, like you don't need to qualify it by best shooting centers. He is one of the best shooters, period. He's super talented. it. If he'd happily float around on the perimeter.

No questions about that. He doesn't need to post up inside like an M. B. does. So that fit is very intriguing if you can work that out. You mentioned their wings. What they really need is Janey McDaniels. Like he's got to figure it out. McKell Bridges became a knockdown guy from three.

He had the defensive aspect. No question about that. McDaniels has the defense, but he doesn't have the shooting. He shot 36% from three last season. I don't know, only 200 shots. This year he's down to 26% from three.

well, no, like 53 shots this year, always hover around 60% from the free throw line, doesn't have great touch. But if a guy like a Jada McDaniels is able to turn into a shooter and or you're able to flip Malik Beasley and Tarin and Prince plus future picks into player X who can shoot and get buckets for you at the wing position,

they look up pretty good all of a sudden. They're looking really, really good, especially if those young guys, particularly Anthony Edwards, can continue ascending upward. Ant seems like the real deal, Mike. I'm a believer in ants. I believe in him, too.

It's funny you talk about, you know, just Vanderbilt specifically and shooting in general. If these guys can't shoot McDaniels or Vanderbilt or whoever, they're probably just going to start putting bigs on them, especially you talk about Kat, specifically preferring to sort of roam around the three point line. His post-ups have not really been that great so far this season. So, you know, will teams just feel comfortable putting a wing on Carl Anthony Towns chasing him around the three-point line, baiting? them into posting up and just allow the big guy who's a rim protector to guard one of their wings who can't shoot and just guard the rim. I think that's going to muck things up a little bit for them. But I think if Kat can find ways to punish wings when they're put on him, whether it being the post or some other ways, that will help them a lot. I specifically want to say one suggestion to the

Timberwolves coaching staff, and that's to block Yokic highlights from Carl Anthony Towns's phone because Towns thinks he can pass like Yokic because he gets in the post and he tries some of the craziest passes I've ever seen and I'm convinced that he's on his phone looking at Twitter after games and he sees a Yokic pass and he's like I can do that like I can do that

give me the ball in the post right now I'm going to do that right now and then of course it's a turnover for them so that's my one suggestion to the Timberwolves coaching staff just block those highlights entirely I interviewed Yokic years ago I forget it was like the 17, 18 season. And being Yokic, we watch

some videos together on my laptop. And I was like asking, like, what are you seeing when you make this pass? It was like some crazy, instantaneous, you know, sudden processing play where like he finds a guy without even looking. He's like, I don't know. I just throw the ball and it goes where I want. It just goes where I want. And I think he's just one of those guys where his

hand-eye coordination and his ability just to put the ball or the football, the basketball, the basketball, the dart, whatever it is. It goes where he wants it to. He's just one of those human beings that have the ability to do that. And you might watch videos and say, I can do that with 10,000 hours of practice.

You can't do it. It's all instinct. Exactly. It's just in you. It's just in you. And I don't think Cat has that. One of the team I want to mention is the Memphis Grizzlies. Just out of respect to Chris Vernon.

They are another team that does belong in that conversation with John Morant, playing at a MVP level. Desmond Bain. Desmond Bain? Oh my God. Desmond Bain. That's another one that hurts. Again, so many teams

passed on Desmond Bain. Inexplicable. He remembers all of them. He said, did you hear him talking trash the other night? He's like, Josh Green out. He was going to singled out Josh Green. And he said Josh Green, who, I don't think he even played tonight.

Like, he called him out for not even playing in that game. Like, that's a level of trash talk. Like, you can't even get on the court and you were drafted before me. Like, that's a good level of trash talk. The team on my list, that's probably, you know, one or two or three moves away is the Charlotte Hornets. And with them, it's a number of things.

Lamello ball very well could be a future MVP candidate. Yeah. If he continues on this trajectory, Terry Rozier, a formerly very inconsistent guy with poor shot selection out of college early in its career in Boston hat has now become like one of the best shooters in all of basketball. Yeah. His evolution has just been extraordinary to watch.

watch. Gordon Hayward looks good right now. We'll see if he can stay healthy. And Miles Bridges has come a long way. So, you know, Kelly Ubre, former son, doing very well for them this season. Embracing the bench roll. Embracing it. Yeah. Good for him. Seriously, coming through. They're missing a big. They need some more development from their young guys, and they need to have a big trade at some point. But Charlotte, um, LaBello Ball is really just, you know, the reason why they belong in this list. do you guys you know sam with the way you've seen devon booker develop over the years is there anything a guy like like lamello ball can look at with a devon booker and apply to his own game

different types of players different types of styles um but in what ways can ball can elevate his play like booker did every year every every year for the phoenix suns very very different types of players i mean lemello is obviously so heliocentric already with his approach and handling the ball constantly and he's got he's got the vision he's got the playmaking down so there's nothing he can learn from booker in any of those realms i guess you're going to force me to say and i'd hate to sound like a boomer for a second but a little bit more focus on the mid-range game and understanding a certain poise that he can use to continue to add there become the have the most versatile shot portfolio the shot profile that he possibly can when it comes down to clutch time five minutes left in the game i suppose those

would be the sorts of things that he could watch Booker film on. Because frankly, a lot of the stuff, Lamello already looks so good. With his game management of the Hornets right now, I don't think there's all that much there that he has to take. Mid-range frequency for a second here. Yeah, sure. Because I was thinking about this watching James Hardin

versus watching the Suns. So Lamello Ball, just a tie to him. He takes 8% of his shots from deep mid-range. So these are shots outside of the paint from two-point range. Chris Paul, 35%, David Booker, 25% Katie, 25%

DeRosen, 36%, 3,0%, 3% Levine, 19% LeBron, 17%, Luca, 15%, Tatum, 16%. James Hardin,

still under 5%. Which he's been at for years and years and years and years and years. He just doesn't take that shot very often. He's been closer to 0% in some seasons. Watching Hardin this year with Brooklyn, I've just thought,

thought to myself, what if he just started taking some deep mid range jumpers here and there a little more often? He doesn't need to be in that Chris Paul, Devin Booker range, but maybe get him like to the tray range, 18%, the Zach Levine range, 19%. Because like, everybody's talking about the new foul rules. And that undoubtedly makes a little bit of a difference on like when he does this stuff with his body, with the floater range shots that he takes. But I just don't think he's as explosive as he was before.

I don't think his first step is as explosive it was in the past. And like you see the way a LeBron James adapted. LeBron takes more jumpers than he ever did before. He's not, he doesn't have that burst he did before. Neither does Hardin. Maybe for Hardin, the solution is just to integrate some more deep brain shot that that can keep defenders off balance. You're taking advantage of every area of the floor.

And on nights you're getting to the rim or knights are getting the whistle, attack, attack attack, attack. On nights you're failing it from three to do it. But like he shoots 43%. on deep twos for the last five years. That's a good percentage. It's not 50% like Chris Paul. It's not 60% like Kevin Durant,

but it's really good. Yeah. It's good enough for him to integrate that shot to his game. I don't know. It's just a thought I've had on my mind about Hardin. What do you guys think about that? I have a theory that players that are considered

extremely clutch often take mid-range shots. And, you know, as much as people, like people don't like to point. stat guys don't like to point at field goal percentage anymore because field goal percentage is just part of the story, right? If you say somebody shot this percentage, well, you know, how many free throws do they take? How many of those were three point shots? Yada, yada, yada. You're looking at true shooting percentage at some point. But like at the end of a game, all that matters is whether or not the shot goes in if it's a clutch situation because you might not get another shot after that.

And I think if you're reliant, like I'm not going at hard for being not clutch. I'm not one of those guys that's really going to attack him for that. But if you're relying too much on either the refs bailing you out or launching threes, that's a little bit tough because over time, defensive players are going to understand your tendencies. Players like Chris Ball and Devin Booker now, the Sun's being one of the most clutch teams in the NBA, having the ability to do, you know, Chris Ball doesn't get to the rim anymore, but three point shots or mid-range shots, I think helps a lot, especially, you know, Devin Booker, who can rise up above. And Chris Paul, who can be kind of shifty.

And if you're James Harden, like you talked about, he's shifting, right? He may not have that, you know, first step or whatever. He's not going to blow by a guy over and over and over and over again like he used to or like LeBron James used to. But learning from what Chris Paul does, I think makes a lot of sense to me, just especially to have the ability of doing it in clutch time situations. But also, if you go back and watch James Harden highlights, he was great at that. Like, he used to be really good at it.

It's not like it's something that he has never had in his bag. He's had it and he had it really, really well in OKC. So I'd like to see it. He hit two pull-up two's last Friday's game against Minnesota. The last time he hit two pull-up two-pointers was March 13th, 2019 against the Warriors. Over two years ago, it was the last time he hit two in a single game. That's crazy. I mean, everybody, everybody, you know, watching basketball, understandably.

So it talks about the three-point revolution. You know, you get Steph Curry, a revolutionary of the game. You get Yannas like a modern-day shack and interior force. I feel like ESPN and the NBA's league partners, they need to build the sons as the throwback or the team that's blending the modern with the old. Because with Chris Paul and Devin Booker, these guys play a game that anybody who grew up watching basketball in the 90s or the early 2000s would absolutely love. I mean, Chris Paul is from the early 2000s.

When he's the NBA. I mean, he's still going. I just feel like there's a missed opportunity for the NBA working with its partners to, you know, build the sons in this way. Why are the suns not touted as this throwback trying to take down all these crazy analytics-based teams? Like, they should be built up by the league partners like that,

in my opinion. But I'm just, I'm just rambling. That would be really good for ratings. It also might drive me a little bit crazy, though, because I do feel like there are analytical components to the suns, too. So I wouldn't want it to swing too far in the other direction. So give the NBA partners and just kind of everyone in the national scene a little bit of credit.

This was mostly the fact that the Warriors were on TV and we all know the Warriors are great TV, both objectively basketball-wise and also for ratings. But that Suns Warriors game, the first one, was built up and we saw the narratives coming into it. I don't know if you would call it a budding rivalry or, you know, we'll see. I imagine the Christmas game will be very well viewed as well. but TNT said it was the most watched regular season game they've had in two years. And I thought that was a very good sign for Phoenix and kind of their standing in the national media. I know some people, you know, they complain sometimes.

And obviously there are things we can pick at, but I just thought that was a good sign. You're right. Rivalries can happen in the NBA. And I think it's become such a player's lately, even bottom of the screen. It's like Curry versus Booker, like in capital letters. And then the team names in small font. I'd love to see some actual rivalries really. be shaped in the NBA.

And Phoenix Golden State has potential. The way these teams actually match up those two games last week, especially the first one, like if that's a seven game series, it could be an epic. It could be an absolute epic. And because the way these teams are built, where they don't seem like there's any signs of slowing down,

I don't care about Chris Paul's age, I don't care about Steph Curry's age. These guys have games built to last. And with all the surrounding pieces with the mixture of youth and veterans, these teams could be competing for five more years. There's a real chance of that. So I'm hopeful. I'm very, very hopeful that this is the start of a rivalry.

I am. A couple of other things I want to talk about before we got out of here. Is there a move for the suns to make? What's missing from Phoenix? Yeah, so like finding another wing, I think, is something that they should focus on. They did it last year. They somehow got Tory Craig for nothing. If they can do something similar like that, obviously, it's tough.

They don't have a lot of, if Jalen Smith has shown just a little bit more, I think they would have something to trade, I don't feel like he's got a lot of trade value right now, which makes it a little more difficult. Yeah. Maybe none. But I think there's another guy that everyone's going to know. I think it's okay to say it, Mike. Zero.

He's got no trade value. And they didn't even pick up his third year option. Like he's not even signed for next year. So we're done with that. But, you know, Thad Young is an obvious one, you know, especially now that Frank Kaminsky might be out. Frank Kempinski, by the way, you haven't mentioned him, had played really well so far this.

season. Frank tank. Yeah. And, you know, replacing that and finding someone who could potentially play with Biggs as well and play, you know, center in some lineups, something like Thad Young could help too. But even that wing depth is something that I think they need to address. Speaking of guys who can play the Thad Young role, kind of the four or five hybrids,

I'm thinking of like, who can be the Dario Sharich, Frank Kaminsky. Because we saw Javel. If you're thinking about a warrior series, we saw what Small Ball did to Javel. He only played like eight minutes in those games. I know we have a Portland fan in our myths who I do not want to afford. I know who you're going to say. You're raising your arms. You're raising your arms.

Larry Nance. Larry Nance. If they hit the reset button and decide that they're actually going forward at the deadline, which I will be honest, I think is unlikely. But if they do, Larry Nance, that's the guy I want. Let's go. That's the guy that Phoenix should really be going after because he is not being optimized in Chauncey Billups' system.

Yeah. And I think Phoenix would really open up a lot of opportunities for him to playmake out of the elbow in a way that would be super beneficial on both sides. Not to mention, his dad was a legend in Phoenix. That's true too. Monty William, I'm sure, would figure it out a heck of a lot better than Chonsie Phillips has. That's for sure. I'm not convinced Chonsie Phillips has ever

watched Larry Nance. Wow. I mean this sincerely. I mean, think about it. Think about it. He was an assistant coach with the Clippers last year, and I looked this up. Larry Nance didn't play in either of the games, the Clippers faced the Cavs. And he was an ESPN analyst. ESPN didn't care about the Cleveland

Cavaliers for years because LeBron was gone. I mean, the Kyrie was gone. Would it really be, it'd be kind of understandable if he didn't see Larry Nance, the short rolling wizard who could make plays out to bounce? Inexcusable, but maybe understandable, yes. Inexcusable but understandable.

I like Larry Nance idea. I don't know what you're giving up for him compared to what other teams can, but that's like the type of construct that makes sense to me. Any chance the Sarver's situation becomes a distraction this year? Is this team just locked in? It seems locked into me.

I'm shocked that it hasn't, to be honest, so far. And, you know, so much of that credit goes to Monty Williams. Obviously, I think that he's kind of the perfect guy to be in that role to help shield them from that. But also Chris Paul, who has quite literally dealt with this before. And that's helped them a lot. And, you know, we'll see, we don't know. It's one of the stories you don't know when it's going to come back again. We don't know exactly what the level of the news is going to be.

And we'll see how that affects them. the future, but I think a lot of credit goes to Monty and Chris Paul, but even beyond that, the players for being able to block all of that out and still play as well as they have been so far this season. You guys both grew up Suns fans, right? Yeah. Correct. Both grew up in Arizona.

I'm from New York, actually. How'd you become a Suns fan, Sam? Steve Nash. I think, you know, there's like a 10-year age gap between Mike and I, so I think that my story is a story. I'm just pointing it out. Just saying facts, bro. You're not old.

don't worry. I mean, I think it's just the story of a lot of like borderline millennial Gen Z, Suns fans who kind of became fans around that Steve Nash era, didn't necessarily feel a certain kinship to the Knicks or the Nets at that time. So I decided to go in a different direction. And if you ask me, I earned it because I stayed a fan through the 2010 through the 2019 period. We even the first, we started this podcast a few years ago, the first season we covered was immediately after the 2018 draft, that 19 win season with Igor Kukashkov. Yeah. Safe to say things are a little bit. bit different for us these days. And it's, it's more fun now. But yeah. For you guys coming off a

decade of just losing, what's that sudden shift like? Just going from that to this. I think that fans have no idea how to watch a winner and we're learning as we go. Because I think there is this instinct to be mad about something every single game because in the past, there was something to be mad about after every single game. And now you're like looking for a scapegoat, looking for something to be angry about. Or even like a lot of people, a lot of fans will go at Monty Williams. And it's like, I don't know,

Monty Williams might be at least the top three coach in the NBA. You could make the case that he's the best or at least the second best. And to go at somebody like that is actually really funny. But in the last week, I have interacted with a lot of Warriors fans. And what I realized in that, is that it nothing changes it. Fans are who they are. I think there's an instinct to get mad about certain things regardless.

It's been a wild ride for us. I think for Sam and I, we had to learn how to cover the team differently, you know, whether it be like, you know, it's sort of really specifically player focus before, you know,

understanding which players were going to stay, which players were leaving, to like being more, you know, talking about adjustments or matchups or things like that, that really good teams have to learn how to talk about. So we're still learning. I hope we're getting better, right, Sam? Yeah, I hope so. And, you know, just covering the playoffs for the first time. You've got to learn how to think about the playoffs. The best teams do put themselves into it. They shift into a different gear and they coast for a little

bit in the regular season. It really is true. And you, you hit that wall. The 18 win, the 18 game win streak has made this season so much fun so far. But I also know, typically you get to game 50, you get to game 60. This is what happened to us last year. And you're kind of like, all right, can we skip to the playoffs already? Can we see who we're going to play and talk matchups? because let's really get into it. Just about the fan base in general, though, when it happens so fast, like you see people's eyes light up again

when they talk about the suns. And that's the really exciting thing. This was a dormant fan base for a while. I wouldn't say it was a small fan base, but it was a dormant fan base. And for the transformation to happen so rapidly, suddenly you see why they've always said that Phoenix is a basketball city first and foremost.

And so that's been really special for us and really exciting. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a great basketball town to see, to have a team like this to root for as well. It's not just a, it's a great team. It's a great team that's easy to root for with guys with great stories like Devin Booker, like McKellbridge's like Cameron Payne. I mean, like up and down the roster, like Chris Paul at his late 30s,

sustaining success, continuing to adapt like we talked about earlier. And like I said, D'Andre, and I think he embodies it all. A number one pick who people writ for this reason, reason, that reason, should have taken Lucas, should have done this, should have done that. He's not this. He's not that. And he just fully embraces his role. And I think he, Aiton more than anybody, embodies what this Phoenix Sun's team is.

It's sacrifice that's playing together all for the greater good. I don't know, man. I love watching this Sun's team. And it's great. I mean, I think growing up rooting for, I'm beyond blessed. I was beyond spoiled growing up a Boston sports fan. I will never, you know, shy away from that. But I recognize so many of the qualities, especially in the Patriots that I

saw growing up, we're just minimizing mistakes, playing consistently every night, sacrificing, finding little ways to improve and tweak what you already did well and trying to make it better. That's what the Sons do. And that's why I really believe in this team that they're better than they were last season when they had made the NBA finals. And I think across the whole NBA this year, it's a wide open race. Like there are 11, 12, or 13 teams that you can make an argument for. They could say, oh, they could win the title.

Phoenix is near the top of that list but if there's a move out there to maximize your odds I hope the suns are able to make it or I hope a team is willing to make it because that window is wide open man for Phoenix to actually come out on top this year so Mike and Sam

I appreciate you guys coming on the pods today this is super super fun thank you yeah of course appreciate you Kevin appreciate the platform as always thank you guys where can people find you on social media and where can people find your podcast I'm at protected pick on Twitter Mike

My last name was spelled like Vigil. It's pronounced Vihil. You can find me. I'm the guy with the bag on his head. That's what most people will say when they see my profile. Our podcast is called the timeline of Phoenix Sun's podcast on the Blue Wire podcast network. You can find us on all the podcast apps. I'm at S Cooper Hoops on Twitter. And yeah, we have a YouTube channel as well. I guess could be the only other thing we could plug. Just the timeline of Phoenix Sun's channel on YouTube. Always love a good YouTube analysis. That's what this podcast is. It's the void a podcast version. Oh, I love it. Mike, Sam, thank you guys so much. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Mike Bihill and Sam Cooper. I loved it.

My goal with the show is that fun and learn, and I feel like this is the type of conversation where we did just that. Thank you to our associate producer Jesse Lopez, a video producer, Dylan Burkey, for helping make the void. And a big thank you to you for listening. I'll be back on Friday with Chris Vernon with another episode of The Mismatch. You can hear me on Sunday night on the Bill Simmons podcast for NBA Trades After the Ark. See you again next Wednesday with another episode.

of the void. Thank you again. Have a fun day.