The Mismatch - In the Heart of Mavs Country With Jonathan Tjarks | The Void

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

Welcome to 'The Void' as Kevin O'Connor brings you deep inside the NBA with the people who know it best. KOC goes deep into the state of Texas for today’s guest as he is joined by The Ringer's Jonathan Tjarks, host of 'Upside High.' They go into the Mavericks' improvement on defense under Jason Kidd and compare his coaching style to Rick Carlisle (05:19). Tjarks also points out how Kidd uses Luka Doncic differently on offense before answering if Luka needs to fail in order to achieve in the NBA (13:14). They speak the truth when it comes to Kristaps Porzingis (19:21). With the trade deadline looming, they debate which teams (if any) are a perfect fit for Domantas Sabonis and Myles Turner (23:44). Lastly they discuss Draymond Green’s low-key resurgence and why he’s key for the Warriors to win it all (37:02). Host: Kevin O'Connor Guest: Jonathan Tjarks Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The ringer gambling show is here to help you place your bets on the biggest sports around the world. Join NFL analyst Warren Sharp on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. Each week, they'll cover everything from spreads, game totals, and parlays to player props, futures, post-game reactions, and more. Check out the Ring Your Gambling Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, thank you for listening to another episode of The Voie. We have a very special guest today. Jonathan Charks, co-host of Upside High on the Ringer NBA show feed, as well as a writer at

the ringer.com Charks. What's going on? Hey, thanks for having me on. So to start today's episode of The Void, we're going to be talking about the Dallas Mavericks. Charks, I have a hard time figuring this team out. They've been up and down all season long, guys, in and out of the lineup. Right now entering Wednesday's game against the Knicks, they're 22 and 18, but they're without Chris Stapps, Boersings, who is also now in COVID protocols. What's your, first thought about the current state of the Dallas Mavericks? They've only played 14 games all season with Luca, Chris Stapps, and Jalen Brunson. They're three best players.

So, I mean, I think they've played like 40 games now or something. It's been like really difficult to know what's going on with this team because they've had so few games and all their best players. So we're still really kind of guessing, especially with the new coach. You're right with Jason Kidd. It has been harder to assess some of the changes that he's made. made with so many guys being in and out of the lineup. But one of the ones that I really do like was the decision to put Jalen Brunson in the

starting five over Tim Hardaway Jr. Hardaway is a good spark plug scorer, but ultimately with him, he's too inconsistent, doesn't bring it enough defensively, whereas Brunson averaging 16 points, six assists, only two turnovers, he doesn't make mistakes. He'll shoot the ball better than he has so far this season. He's just been critical to that Mavs team being in the starting five. You said he's one of Dallas's three best players. Why is that?

What is it that makes Brunson so good for Dallas this season? Well, that's been the big change this season philosophically, is they've really elevated Jalen Brunson. Part of it is that Lucas missed a ton of time this year, but they're also starting together a lot. So Brunson is a 6-2 point guard. He, I mean, shoot, he's probably still most known for winning Final Four Most Valuable Player for Villanova,

like four years ago. He came in with Luca as a rookie four years ago, and his role is like steadily grown over time. And now under Jason Kit, he said, Jalen Brunson's going to start. He's getting 16 points to game. He's a legit, like, featured part of this team now, which he hasn't been in the past.

So on SecondSpectrum.com, this is surprising to me. I was looking up who the, which teams are the most efficient when their star players isolate? I wanted to see what Luca was doing this season. And when Luca runs in isolation, no surprise, Dallas is scoring, 1.08 points per chance, which is fourth bests of all players who have at least four per game.

So these are the high usage ISO guys. The top five, five is Steph, four is Luca, three is Hardin, two is Carl Anthony Towns. Number one is Jalen Brunson. The Mavericks are scoring. What? That's shocks? That it knows that high. I know. The Mavericks are scoring 1.14 points per chance when Brunson isolates.

and he doesn't well done way to bury that KOSC start with the five go to one that was I was good I like that

I mean like it's it's surprising that Brunson is up there with some of those days because even behind the top five it's Middleton Doros and Garland

Janus Butler Durant like it's on a bigger names all stars proven players besides Garland for Cleveland and Brunson for Dallas

Brunson when when Luca was out for those 10 games during December he was averaging 21 points seven assists, only two turnovers. He's been terrific for Dallas this season.

What's the difference between Brunson and past years and this year's, and how has it worked playing alongside Luca? Because now they are starting together since Luca got back. I don't even know, like, he's actually not shooting threes as well, and he's a little less efficient than in the past. He's just getting more opportunities, honestly. He's almost at 10, 2-point shots a game. He can really get buckets.

He's always had that ability. He's really powerful. He's not super athletic, but he's really strong for a smaller guard. And he can get to his spots. He has great touch. The big difference is just that the team is believing more in him and letting him show more that what he can do. I think he's been this player for a year or two now.

But under Carlisle, it was so much more Luca everything. Offensive efficiency is the most important thing. Every single possession, we're going to maximize efficiency. That was Carlisle's, like, philosophical M.O. And Jason Kidd does not have that M.O. For better or for worse. And part of that is getting Brunson more opportunities. So you say that's not Kidd's M.O. for better or for worse.

What is the for better aspect of that with the way Kid is running the system? Well, he definitely plays more defensive-minded players, number one. So he's given Josh Green a ton of run this year. Their draft pick up from last year, the first-run pick, who Rick pretty much buried on the bench didn't play at all. he's given Frank Millikina a lot of run this year for different points in time. Frank, he smokes.

I know he doesn't like the nickname, but I mean, to be sure, apart has made so tough as the COVID stuff. Like for a while he was playing like four G-League guys. But I think generally, Kidd is more willing to play defensive-minded players than Carlisle. And then the other thing is like,

he's posting up Chris Staps more because, hey, I want to get Chris Taps more involved in this team. I want him to feel involved in the team. I want him to feel involved in the team. So I got to give the dig dog some love. You know, the old classic Shaq saying, right? If you don't feed the big dog, he ain't going to guard the house,

like kid believes in that. So, like, doing that kind of stuff, the Mavs are not as efficient as last year, but they're a different kind of team as a result. With Porzingas, how has he changed in his now, this is his third season with Dallas? How has he changed since Nick's fans last saw him in a New York uniform? Well, that's a good question.

It's tough because he's had, within the time in Dallas, he's changed so much because of the injuries. last year was pretty much a loss season for him because he wasn't expected he was like Anthony Davis he was hurt he has his surgery he's not that he's going to come back so fast

he comes back already thinks he will and this season there's so many games being played all the time to get those games in he's never getting in a rhythm he's constantly in and out of the lineup he was just really bad this year he's at least in a rhythm now before the COVID stuff he's only had I think he only missed he only had two absences

and more than one game. So he's mostly been in the lineup when he hasn't had COVID, and he's just been more productive and more effective because I think, one, he's healthier, and two, I think him and Rick Harlisle

had totally run its course. Like, they needed a change. Both of them did. And I think Chris Saps has responded just from Rick being gone partly, honestly. And what waits this kid have been, you said earlier,

to go back to that comment, for better or for worse, how has Kit impacted this team? I mean, has it been positive overall? It's very tough to say because of what we said at the jump about how they had so many guys in and out of the lineup. My suspicion is yes, but we haven't seen it enough. It's just, and honestly, it's as much kid as it is not Carlisle.

Carlyle came in it so long. He was so entrenched in the organization. It's funny, I was talking to someone. They're like, as scouts, we're having to relearn things because Rick was there for so long. You had to scout from a Rick perspective. Well, what kind of players does Carlisle want? Because it doesn't really matter what the player can do if Carlisle don't want to play him, you know,

which has been a longstanding problem in Dallas. So it's just very, very different. I mean, he was here, I think, like, I want to say like 13 years, 14, 15, an absolute eternity in NBA times. So it's just been a really a breath of fresh air in a lot of ways. But all that said, Rick is an incredible Ex-Nos coach. The team's offense does not look as good.

there are a lot of possessions where there's like multiple guys kind of running around into the three point line and you're like, what's even happening right now? So they're not as organized on offense, but they're just different, does that make sense? So they're different this season in the sense that they now have a top 10 defense but a middling offense. And with Jason Kidd, some of the changes

and the differentiations we're seeing with them, how is he balancing the offensive versus defensive heavy lineups this season compared to Carlisle in the past? Okay, so here's a good example of how this breaks down. And we're talking about earlier how they're playing Josh Green more. Well, Josh Green is a great athlete. I believe he has the best net rating on the team. But he's also only taken like 0.053s a game.

K.O.C., like, not to digress, but he's like lost confidence in his three-point shot, which is disappointing because in Arizona he was a three-point shooter. But he's pretty much stopped taking them, which in Rick's system is like, forget, you can't even play, right? If you're a guard, don't take threes, I'm not playing you. But with kids, like, you know what, I like your energy, I like your ball movement, I like your defense. We're going to play you, even though sometimes on offense, you're going to hurt us.

Because teams aren't going to be guardians to the three-point line. But you know what, F it. Let's just play you anyways and use your defense. So that's the example of the trade-off kids making that Carlisle wouldn't make. So to me, if they can maintain this level of defense, I'd be okay with their offense being more in the mud. Of course, we'll see if they can. and maintain this level of defense because part of it is not having Luca out there.

They can play a lot better D. Yeah. I mean, Lucas regressed, which is, I mean, disappointing. Like,

he had some good moments on defense the last couple of years. He's falling off this season, though. I mean, he can turn it up when he wants to. He just doesn't do it very often. So it's like a lot of times just don't want to do it. And the results are the results because of it.

So with this team right now, what's missing from this roster? What's the move moving for? We don't understand totally what they are today. What needs to happen in the coming month or so ahead of the trade deadline? Like, what are the priorities for Dallas in continuing to build this out? Maybe not even with trades, but like with figuring out who they are is what I mean. It's hard because like, are you talking the 30,000 foot question or like just for this season?

In terms of this roster, the number one thing is getting healthy, getting everybody playing together. It was so frustrating. Luca misses like five or six games for protocols. In the game he comes back, KP goes out for protocols. It's been like that all season. One of those two guys is like never on the floor. So you're always kind of scrambling.

You're never really sure. No one's roles are settled yet because the team keeps changing because of that plus the COVID stuff. And I think for this year especially, Luca actually got hurt for the first time in his career in the NBA. He hurt his. It was funny. It was like one of the,

the only time he made an all-out defensive effort, and he, like, rolled up his leg and hurt his knee and his ankle. I was like, oh, man, the one time he actually tries on defensive backfires on him. But a year like this, when you get hurt for real, plus you have COVID protocols, you're out a long time. It really adds up. When I think about this Mavericks team, one of the things that I wrote about recently on the ringer.com was how,

with Jaylon Brunson and how great he performed without Luca, like I said earlier, 21 points, 7 assists, and only two turnovers, just really good rock solid play. And I think to myself, Luca needs to embrace playing off ball more often. The line that I had in there with the question Luca needs to ask himself was, does he want to be more like Steph or hardened with his off ball activity? Whether that's like movement, cutting, screening, or even just the effort put into defense, is there any hope that we see maybe like a version

of Luca that's like the guy we see today with some more of what Luca did for Real Madrid where it was so much activity off ball? You remember watching him cut and move back then? It was different. Yeah, I mean, he played, remember he played with Gorin Draggich in Eurobasket?

And then, yeah, in Real Madrid, they had a player get hurt. Sergio Yule, I think, right? Was there for a long time. And Luca played off him a lot. It's a great question. I have a couple different answers for you. If the question is, is there any hope if Luca becomes this off-ball wizard activity guy?

No. Why? That's not going to happen. Why not? He doesn't have the energy to do that for being honest. Why can't he do it more? Like a little bit less on ball and a little bit more on-ball. He's not in good enough shape to do it. Like, I can't tell you if he'll get in better shape. Then that's a bigger problem, I suppose. Yes. Okay. So, but here isn't, there's another answer, though. And I think this is a great, I'm glad you asked it. I think this is a hidden thing Kid is doing, I think is absolutely genius. And we'll see if it works. Kid has doubled up the amount of times Luca posts up compared to last year. So I think Lucas at 11%. This is an example of Carlisle wouldn't post up Luca because it's not as efficient. But there's more than efficiency.

When Luca's posting up, Brunson has a role. He can run point, right? Do his little pick and rolls. Luca's at the elbow. Therefore, Luca is still part of the offense without him moving. and it creates space for Brunson to do his thing. So I think that's the play, is you're going to post up Luca Moore, elbows, high posts, stuff like that. Ideally, yes, KOC, I would love if he was in phenomenal shape. He ran around screens, and he did it.

That'd be great. I mean, am I at this point counting on that to happen? No. Like, let's live in the world we live in. I think that's the solution. I mean, this season, Luca is posting up, or at least finishing possessions on the post, 4.2 times for a game up from 2.4 times last season under Carlisle.

And, I mean, it hasn't been necessarily the most efficient play for Dallas, but him just occupying that space. Exactly. The other benefit for Luca personally is that he can do this without being in great shape. Like, honestly, at this point, with Luca, you have to move around that. So if this is going to be how it's going to be, let's just post you up more. I mean, let's like Yokic, right? You ain't got to be in great shape to play like that.

You can just do it. Does Luca need to fail hard in the playoffs for him to wake up when it comes to his conditioning? I think all of us in life need to learn from our mistakes. And if you succeed very early, there's not much incentive to change what you're doing. It's been very instructive. So I was at Dirk's retirement ceremony. And Dirk talked a lot in his speech about how hard it was for him early in his career. How much he had to learn about the NBA, how much he had to learn about being an American,

and how much he'd learn about basketball. Dirk really had to, he really came from very little and grew. Obviously, that is not Lucas' story, right? Like, it's just very different. He came in and was amazing instantly. So it's just going to be a different process for him. I mean, it's going to be interesting to see

the way Lucie evolves in the years to come because, I mean, like, he could not get any better from what he is today and be a Hall of Famer, and he could win an MVP. He could even win multiple championships by not improving even a bit from what he is today. He could continue to be in and out of shape

throughout the rest of his career and still be a Hall of Famer. Yeah, it's crazy. He's crazy. He's that good. He's that good. But if he does become a guy who's in peak level conditioning,

that's where you can go from all NBA to MVP like Yokic. That's where you can go from MVP to like Pantheon level player. And I mean, I think there's a couple of things there. With Yokic, a great example of this. I want to make sure I get these numbers, right? Yokic is 26.

Lukah's 22. Like, that's a big part of it also, how young he is. Sometimes when guys come into the league so young, you think they're older than they are. Especially Luke is a bigger guy. He's only 22. Like, he basically just had his college career. Rick Carlisle is basically his college coach. You know, essentially, right, essentially.

That's an interesting way to think about it. And now it's a new coach. And I think that is the most important part. And I think, I think Tim McMahon's piece broke it down pretty well. It was always one of those things in Dallas that was like really well talked about in Dallas. But like, it was one of those things you didn't want to get into too much to Rick Luca dynamic. But McMahon's piece kind of lays it out pretty well in terms of they weren't even talking to each other at the end. Like Luca did whatever he wanted to do.

And Rick just coached everybody else. and they had Jamal Mosley kind of coached Luca. And so with Kid, I'm not sure Kid is going to be able to break through with him, but he is trying right now. He actually called out Luca

for complaining to the rest a couple weeks ago. And I thought that was just hilarious. I couldn't believe it. But you're like, yeah, he just does it too often. I was like, wow, someone needed to say it, and kids just said it. I don't think any of us know the answer,

how do you break through. But if anybody is equipped to do it, though, it is a Hall of Favor. A former All-Star, all NBA guy and Jason Kidd who can try to get through. I mean, I really do think with Luca, though, it's going to be the type of thing where his first two playoff losses against the Clippers, though that's not failing.

No, not really. He also had these unbelievable moments. Luca needs to just straight up fail, like just fail. Like, it needs to be four-game sweep, five-game loss, first round, something to just wake him up. Do people realize the level of basketball in those Mavs Clippers series, especially last year, the level that, like,

Luca and Kauai were at was unbelievable. I mean, Kauai went all the way to the bottom of his bag. It's getting, like, 50 points a game. That's how good Luca was playing. It was Kauai said, all right, I had to score 50 points

every night and beat you. Like, there are any guys who can do that? It was crazy. Luca averaged, like, 36 points per game in last year, right? Yeah, it was nuts. It was insane.

Like, he's basically playing the, like, the Clippers could have won the championship easy. last year, Quieta wasn't hurt. They could have. I don't if they would have, but they could have.

And he basically, it was like what K did against the bucks. It was that level of play. So it's like, yeah, I mean, I get it. And Luca could have also went

all the way to the West finals. I mean, like, you don't know what happens in the second round, right? Like, you could have beaten the jazz, could have advanced.

Maybe they go all the way to the NBA finals if they get past. I think they would have lost their sons, but they could have been the jazz, I think. Certainly. So,

I mean, like, what we're touching on here, though, is last year's Mavs team, Luca's averaging 36 points, they lose in a game 7. This season, Luca, despite some of the criticisms that he's received, despite not

being in the best, he'd be still an all-NBA guy. The rest of this roster, how close is this Mavs team to actually being what it needs to be around Luca for them to be a serious finals contender and not just a good playoff team? How close are they?

I mean, it's all about KP. It's always been about KP. That was the move they made. and they're still waiting to figure out if that's going to work. And I don't know. I mean, I want to believe in him to a certain extent, but at this point, you kind of got to see it to believe it. And as we were just talking about with Luca, how well he played in the playoffs,

obviously KP did not play very well in the playoffs. And I don't even know, because you look at the Clippers, they really, you know, they made Rudy Gobert less effective, too. It's just hard for a center in certain matchups. So with KP, it's like, if they played the Warriors, I think it would be very tough for him. But if it was a series against, you know, the rest of the West after the war,

or the sons even, that part is tough. KP's got to get better on defense. He's got to, I don't know if he can get to that level. What happens if he doesn't, ever? I mean, are we in a situation here with Dallas? Then you have to trade him at some point. I mean, like, how much value does he have? I mean, is he more than like a salary filler?

I mean, I guess my concern with Dallas is, is Luca the guy in two or three years in the middle of his contract? People are saying, what's Dallas doing with this guy? Is he going to leave? I mean, is there someone for them to target a Bradley Beal? Is there a player, something for them to target to help us out? Or is it like the continued development of Jalen Brunson? Is it him getting better and investing in him?

And he grows into a guy that helps because I, because trusting KP as your second guy, the amount of injuries he's had throughout his life, the inconsistent play. Like to me, K.P. Christaps Porzingis could very well be an important championship player. But in all likelihood, you need to look at him as your bonus, your X factor. If he's there and if you can get your seven foot three guy to space the floor and protect the paint, wonderful.

But you need a plan for the event that he's not there. And so, I mean, like for Dallas, I just, I just wonder who is the guy that they're target, but they also gave up picks for him so they don't have all their assets. They don't necessarily have younger players who can be of super value for an impactful player. I just, I struggle with the math charts. So I think what it comes down to is Luca's under contract for five more years, right? After this year, four more after this year. KP's only under contract for two more after this year.

So either they figure it out or in two years after this, they try something else. And I'd almost flip the question at a certain point. if you're Luca, it's who are you going to get to come play with you? That's what it really comes down to at this level. It's less about what the Mavs going to do, is do people want to come play with you? Do you have that ability or the relationships? You know, at the highest level, it's more about relationships. It's more about who do you know?

Like, you know, I mean, Jalen Brown is a guy. I would love Jalen Brown in Dallas with Luca. That's who I would want, someone like that. does Jalen Brown want to play with Luca? I have no idea. Do they even know each other? I have no idea. But that's what the game is.

Who does he now? I mean, is there anybody that he's close with that we know of for sure? That's tough. I think I was going to write about this after the playoffs, but it didn't I'm working out.

I'll probably write about it at some point. European players are at a disadvantage because Luca didn't grow up with these guys. He was a pro at like 13. He knows, you know, he knows Dragich, obviously. If there was a great Slovenian player, no question.

There's just not a lot of great guys unfortunately. How about Yokic? She's a free agent after the 20-23 season. I'd love to see those guys play together. How much time would that be?

I don't know off top my head or anything. The level of sacrifice that those two guys would have to make to play together going from like 100 touches each number one and number two in the league. Okay, you know what's funny?

KOC? I remember I had this conversation with someone in Den of like three years ago. I went out there. We did a story on Yokich, like this guy's next big player. I said, if Yokish and Luka don't know it that much other,

they should get each other's numbers. And if it doesn't work out at some point in their careers, they should make it happen. Like, why not? How cool would that be? It'd be beautiful to watch those guys. I'd love that. Charks, about a month ago on the ringer,

you wrote a story about why the Pacers should keep Miles Turner over DeMontas Sabonis. How old of your thoughts evolved about that since you wrote that piece? Do you still feel the same that Indiana should pretty firmly keep Turner over Sabonis? I think at this point, we've seen what a team built around Subonis can do. And I just don't think he makes sense in a secondary role. That's the issue is, okay, if Subonis is your first option,

you're going to be a decent enough team maybe, but you're going to have a hard time winning in the playoffs with him. But he can't really be a second option because he's not great defensively. He doesn't space the floor. So if he's touching the ball less, he's just less effective. And I think the point in the piece I was making was that I think people don't recognize how much Miles Turner sacrifices for Sabonis to do what he does.

Without Miles Turner, what Sabonis does would not work at all. Turner is one of the best shot blockers in the NBA. And if you look at his numbers, I think with a guy like Turner, his improvement gets obscured sometimes because he takes so many threes. And as, you know, threes are a high variance shot, right? Like some years, a guy might shoot 40% from 3 versus 35 and it's just kind of, you know, it doesn't really mean. anything, it just kind of happens. But you look at Miles Turner's twos, his two percentage keeps going up every year. That tells you he's getting better. His touch is improving. He knows where to be on the floor. He's a better finisher, a better catcher. And it's like, yeah, Turner's frustrated.

Right after it came out, Jared Weiss at The Athletic had a great piece where he talked to Turner about it. And Turner's like, yeah, man, I'd love to get picking rolls. I'd love to go to the basket sometimes. I'm not just a spot-up shooter. And I think, okay, because it gets complicated because sometimes you look at a guy, okay, Sabonis is more skilled than Turner. Yes, no question. But the way Turner plays is easier to put a good team around him

the way Sabonis plays. That's what it comes down to, in my mind, at least. How much of your thinking is related to that last thought about it's just easier to build around a guy like that? I mean, it makes me think about the 2016 draft with Ingram versus Simmons. The conversation then was, well, Ingram is easier to build around.

With your Indiana, I mean, Sabonis might be a better player in a vacuum, but Turner being the shot blocker, the three-point shooter, the guy you can screen and roll, that's easier to build with than Subonis. How much of that dictates your overall thinking when it comes to? A lot, for sure.

And I think especially when you're not talking about the very best players, right? Because, like, I love Miles Turner, but the conversation about Ingram versus Simmons is being had at a different level than Turner versus a bonus. Because no one's ranking those guys as high as the first two guys, right?

So when you have guys who are more role player guys to begin with, then their fit becomes much more important because what's the point building around either one of them? It's not. You don't do that. Right?

So then it's like, who's the better complimentary player? I think it's pretty clear. It's Turner. Especially because I'm doing the piece and I'm like, who would I trade Miles Turner to? There's a bunch of teams.

Who would you trade Sub bonus to? It is very few. Who should be going for Sabonis then? I don't know. So here's why I struggle with it. So on paper, I think that, like, he would make sense in Memphis, right? Jim and Jaron, Jaron could be the Miles Turner to him. He'd be another option. They have enough defensive length to cover for Subonis. But then it's like, they're already covering for Jahn defense.

You don't need two guys who don't play defense. And then it's like, I think if Jaron Jackson would get tired of that too. Like get out of my, I want to go to the basket. Like I think if Sabonis was there, Jackson would be upset eventually. And I think their best version of their team is maximizing Jackson. So I wouldn't do that either, even though it might make them better in the moment. I wouldn't do it long term. I mean, we see Carlisle, you know, elbow touches, post touches are way down for Subonis.

He's spotting up more off and standing behind the arc, even though he's not an efficient three-point shooter. This is Carlisle, you know, making his impact there on Sabonis similar to the way he did with Porz Ingers and changing his role and his responsibilities on offense. For Sabonis, we're talking about, you know, how there might be some fit issues with other teams. I mean, whether I think it's like a team that's on the, you know, the playing bubble, like a Boston who Indiana plays on Wednesday night, somebody like that, you can make a case for him. You can make a case for a wide number of teams. I like the Memphis idea. You can make the case for a golden state. You could say, oh, he could be an upgrade offensively over Kavanaughn. It's an all-in move. You can make the case for a lot of different teams. But with the fit issues, it's happening in Indiana. It could happen with other places. How much of this is on Sabon, right now in his mid-20s to actually become a productive three-point shooter, something that he hasn't done since he was a rookie when he was picking Poppin for Russell Westbrook. It just hasn't happened at all throughout his career, despite all of the other improvements

that he's made. How much of this is on him? It's weird, right? Because it's almost like, if he's the best player on the team, to think it from his point of view, he shouldn't take threes. It's just maybe it's time for him not to be the best player on his team. And more often than not, that has to happen on a new team. It's kind of like with, remember with Lamarcus Aldridge is a good example of this? When he was in Portland,

they were always telling him, Lamarcus, you guys take more threes, stop taking your long twos. But he's like, my favorite shot is the long two. If I'm the best player, why would I not take my favorite shot? You know?

Oh, okay. So what happens is when he takes more threes, you're acknowledging I'm not the best player no more. Like, okay, I'm playing off Dame. I'm making Dame's life easier. it's still longer about making my success. And, like, players do that all the time, but usually they change teams first.

It's like, it's almost like, you know, it's being demoted at work or something, right? That's like you have to kind of look at it. Yeah. It's like, Casey, if they told you, you know what, you're going to have going back to doing, like, news stories. Just break down, just tell us who won the game and give me, like, 500-word game stories.

I mean, maybe you would do that, but it'd be hard. And I think, like, Casey, the other point of that, too, is sacrifice for what? And this is Turner's problem, too, sacrifice for what? Yeah. Yeah. If I'm going to take more three so we can win like four more games and be the 8C, like, well, I don't want to do that. It was a point.

No, that's a great point. Sacrifice for what? And that's probably the hard thing for Carlisle here with installing his system and trying to develop chemistry and all that, all the trade rumors and everything else. So let's say teams feel the same way as you and they're like, we'd rather have Turner.

Which team should be going hard for Turner in this case? I mean, are there any clear fits? Because I think about the late league landscape. Like, he could be in the right situation a real difference maker in the playoffs. I have one for you. It's Charlotte by far. I think Charlotte

and I'm clear of no question. They get Miles Turner. They're a legit team now. I think that's the one. And they got the pieces to do it too real easy. Wouldn't he be a hard trade? 100% right, Sharx. It would not be a hard trade to pull off. It makes sense why there's been so many rumors involving Turner and Charlotte

these past couple of weeks. And what I've had, multiple league sources tell me the past few days is that Gordon Hayward would be the name to watch going back to the Pacers in any type of deal between those two. Because as I reported last week, their preference is to get somebody back who can help them now. They don't want to go into a full rebald. Gordon Hayward could have been going to Indiana before he chose to go to Charlotte after he left Boston. It all just makes way too much sense here with how those pieces fit together. That's an easy deal will pull off. And with Turner, he would help a lot on the Charlotte side. How do you see Turner aiding

their half court offense as well as their defense? Well, because he gives them an actual center. I mean, Mason Plumley is kind of a patch. He's like a patch. He's getting a little older now. He's not as effective. And they've mostly been playing at the end of games with PJ at the five or even Miles Bridges at the five sometimes. And that's fine. But I think they have like the number 30 defense or it's something really, really bad. So you put Miles' Turner there, your defense is going to be a lot better. He still gives you that floor spacing element. I think it's just a perfect fit.

He's pretty much in the same age range, too. Under contract for a few more years, I would do like PJ, the young guys, and a pick for Turner. And I think that's, they didn't even play their young guys. I don't even need them. So let's just make a trade. I'm going to throw out a couple other teams. How about Toronto?

I love that because I feel with Scotty Barnes, he needs a stretch five like Miles. I would be all about that for Toronto. How about Atlanta? Okay, so I'm actually going to write about this, but I think Akangu's awesome. If I was Atlanta, that's the guy I would want to keep it to five. I think he's good enough if you just keep him. That's a whole different conversation, though.

How about an all-in trade involving the Warriors? All in. They're giving up Kaminga and Wiseman. They're getting Turner and a pick, something like that. I would do it personally, but I'm not a person. I'm not a big believer in those guys. Obviously, they believe a ton in them. So I don't have, you know what I mean?

Like, I don't believe in it, but maybe it'll work for them. It's not going to do it probably. But I would personally. It'll be interesting this year. I think you look around the league right now, Golden State, whether it's Phoenix or in the East, Chicago, Brooklyn, Miami, like, whoever it is, either the super favorites or the teams like a level right below that.

The window is open this year. I think so. I think you're right. So you agree that it's open? Like, how many teams do you? think have a chance to win the NBA finals to actually win it. I mean, I think right now, I mean, it does feel like the Bucks and the Warriors. And then the Nets have this weird thing with Kyrie. Like, and none of those teams are, I wouldn't say, are like overwhelming favorite.

Right. I think because of the KD Warriors a few years ago, that for me is the bar. No one's as good as that team. So to me, it's a little more open than it normally to be. So when it comes to going all in here, like a team like the Chicago Bulls, I'm thinking about them these next four weeks ahead of the deadline. And I'm like, all they're really missing is the idea of what Patrick Williams could be, that big, burly, versatile wing defender. They might get him back for the postseason. They might not. But are they a team that should go for, say, a Jeremy Grant from Detroit? I mean, like, like, if you're the Bulls, you don't know how long your window is going to be open to compete for a championship. For some of these teams, like, are there any teams that you

feel like should 100% be going? in? Is this a year for that? Are there even any players that make sense to go all in four? Is Jeremy Grant that level of guy? Is a bonus? Is Turner? Then it's tough too because is trading Patrick Williams going all in?

I don't know. I love Patrick Williams, but it's very early in his career. I don't know. I'd stop. That's a really good question, KOS. I don't have a great answer. I got to think about that. I mean, I think it would make sense to trade Patrick Williams for Jeremy Grant. I think that makes sense for both sides.

I would do that. I think I would do that, yeah. If you're Chicago. I think I'd do it, yeah. I mean, they're really good. He was picked fourth. I mean, that's a lot to give for Jeremy Grant. Jeremy Grant's a really good player.

I know, I know. But, like, it's a lot in grants, imagine Grant playing behind De Rosen and Levine. I mean, like, he could be one of the best third best players in the league, the fourth best player in the league. I will say this. as much as we're talking about all open, Janus does change things. I still don't think they'd beat the bucks

with Janus, how it is. And I think that's probably been underplayed. So the game I'm most excited for next week is that Thursday game, Janus first to Warriors, that, to me, is going to be fascinating. Is that the finals preview Thursday night? It very well could be.

And I love Jeremy Grant. There's no bigger Jeremy Grant fan than me, but I don't think he's swinging a Bulls Buck series. like, Yan's still going to dominate him too. So you don't feel like maybe it's as open as I might feel there. I guess now that I think about it, I guess not, I changed my mind. Because of Yon. I think Nets could beat him.

I think KD is in that level. But the Nets are this weird team because of all their stuff. It's hard to know how to, like, I think the Nets could beat the Bucks when fully healthy. Warriors, maybe. That's why I want to see, how do you think Dremont versus Janus? I'm not actually writing about that. My piece will come out tomorrow about Dremont. And I think that's one of my big questions of the whole season

is can Draymond guard Janus? I'm not even sure. I really want to see it. Can anybody guard Janus? Well, if it even can, it's probably Draymond. That's why I want to, I don't know, though. Maybe he can't either. I mean, he's probably the one.

I mean, who else is even in the stratosphere? I mean, like, Bam, M. M. Bid. M. Bid. M. Bid. I love to see. You know what's so weird, like, Milwaukee and Philadelphia have never played a playoff series.

They've been, like, kind of, shrunking each other for all these years. I would love to see Janice versus Mbid. that would be fantastic. That would be fun. That would be great. So with Dremont, what is your piece about about him? Basically,

I think he's playing better than ever. It's kind of crazy. He's really changed his game. He doesn't take threes anymore. Remember, like, it's so weird because it's almost his career had this like four-year break with KD there. He was no longer as important to the team with KD there.

Now that KD's gone, it's like, oh, the Dremont from 2016 and Dremont from now are totally different. Dremont don't ever shoot three. no more. But he's actually crazy efficient from two. And I was really surprised when I saw that, because my thought was, as he was getting older, his jumper was getting worse, he was getting a little slower, he wasn't finishing as well. But now he's finishing better than ever. He's still playing great defense. He's still running point, basically. I looked at the numbers, KOC. If you look at

how many rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and two-point shooting, the only players who've had season, though the numbers Dremonts have hit ever, is LeBron and Yokic. Like, it's crazy. That's the thing to me. I was not expecting. Like, I figured Steph would be as great as ever this year. I was not expecting Dremont to find it again. And he clearly has.

I mean, he bought in again. I mean, physically, he's totally invested. He's like, probably maybe in the best shape since what? 15, 16, 17? The other thing with Dremont that's important this year, is they've broken up Steph and Dremont. It used to be those two are always on the floor together. And this year it's a lot different.

They'll bring out Steph, and then it becomes the Dremont Jordan Poole show. And I think that's one of the hidden reasons they're back to where they are is because they're not getting destroyed in their non-Stef minutes anymore. Now they do Steph by himself, and then Dremont and Poole.

Obviously, Poole is not as good as Steph, but it's like a bootleg version, right? It's like all the basic stuff just done at a much lower level. and then with Draymond there too, it actually works. So there's that element, and that ultimately I think, Steph, I think, will probably win MVP if this keeps up how it is. But it won't matter if the Warriors win the title,

it's because Draymond's going to have to guard most likely either Janus in the finals or KD in the finals. And that's the matchup. And most likely, they'll have to deal with the Lakers at some point, right? Like the Lakers are still hanging out around there. I'll have to guard AD most likely. Those are the matchups that will determine. or LeBron.

LeBron's the five now. I mean, like, it's kind of crazy. Like, Dremont, the names he might have to get through. Exactly. And that's the gauntlet. Steph's going to win his matchup, pretty much guaranteed. But that's not going to be enough. Draymond's got to win that, not win the matchup, but hold those guys down a bit.

And Yonis, right? Yon has scored 50 points in the finals last year. Draymond cannot have that happen. I mean, it could really be, for like, looking way ahead to April. It could be like Kauai in the first round. I guess that's true. It could be LeBron and AD in the second round. It could be, you know, for sure.

Who knows for the goals, too? Are they the favorite? The favorite? Good question. I think I'd take the Bucks right now over the, but it's close. Interesting. Has Yonis been underrated nationally this year? I mean, he just won finals MVP.

I know, I know, but, I feel, I mean, the way people are talking about the Bucks are not talking about the Bucks. Maybe, maybe that's not the right word. Maybe have the Bucks been overlooked as a team that can repeat this year? They fought a lot of injuries. It's what you'd expect after a finals run, right? They're kind of flying under the radar, but I think the radar is about to hit them pretty hard for sure. Like, yeah, they're a team from all the time.

They're one of the top two or three teams in the league, obviously. You have the Bucks as the favorite. I like it. Not by much, though. I wouldn't say like, I got to see like, let me see this game tomorrow, Draymond versus Janus. What does that even look like? It's fascinating to think about. Charks, thank you for joining The Void, man.

Yeah, thanks for having you on. That was fun. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of The Void in a big, big thank you to Jonathan Charks. My very good friend for joining, I really loved the conversation talking Mavs, Pacers, title race with him. That dude is just absolutely inspirational, amazing. I love Charks, and I enjoy doing this podcast with him today. A big thank you to Jesse Lopez for producing this week's episode.

Please do us a favor with the mismatchel. podcast feed, we get shows on Tuesdays and Fridays with me and Chris Vernon. We get the void every single Wednesday dropping late afternoon. Do us a favor. Give us a follow or subscribe if you haven't already for the mismatch podcast feed and give us a five-star rating on iTunes or now on Spotify you can give ratings as well. It's much appreciated and really does help up the show. Thank you again for listening to this week's episode. I hope you have a fun rest of your day.