The Mismatch - Is it Over for the Mavs? Plus: Lakers Rejected, Kyrie’s Disappearance, and Tatum’s Non-Scoring Impact.

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

As the Finals shift to Dallas for Game 3, Verno and KOC discuss how the Celtics have been able to exploit the Mavericks' defensive weaknesses, as well as limit their offensive production en route to a 2-0 series lead (01:24). They also discuss the impact of Kristaps Porzingis, Kyrie Irving's struggles, Luka Doncic's need to produce some of his signature magic, as well as Jayson Tatum’s poor shooting but effective playmaking and defense. Next, the guys debate whether Dan Hurley just used the Lakers' offer as leverage and the undesirable position Hurley's rejection has put the Lakers in (44:26). The guys finish off the show by discussing the odd athletic measurables of the potential top pick, Zaccharie Risacher (57:26). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Justin Vera here from group chat on The Ringer NBA show, and we want you to come hang out with us for a live podcast recording on Tuesday, June 18th at 8 p.m. Bigwas, Rob Mahoney, and I are kicking off the Ringer residency at the L. Ray Theater in Los Angeles. Get your tickets now at the ringer.com slash events while they last. Hope to see you there. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. And join as he does every Monday night from The Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'O. Concer. Kevin O'clock, Kevin O'Clymer.

Kevin O Conflict, Kevin O'Cand, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin O'Feverto. How are you doing today, man? How was your weekend? You have fun? Do anything good? Yeah. I shot my lowest golf score ever, so that was great. That was a huge accomplishment.

Oh. A 77, so I'm on my way to the senior tour. I've got a couple of years. But then I can hopefully, hopefully by the time I am, in my 50s, then I can take a run at it by then. I did watch the NBA Finals, and it is now 2-0, Boston Celtics. Let's just get the big thing out of the way. Is it over?

I think it's the same as after game one. Dallas needs to change who they are. Boston continues being who they have been to get to this point. And so is it over? Well, I think Dallas is going to have to have Luca possibly shoot over 30 times each game. They have to figure out different ways to get open three-pointers. They have to figure out other ways to get their centers going.

They need to figure out different ways to just not allow Boston to attack so many mismatches, the way they're going against Luca, the way they're going against Kyrie. It's a lot of ifs, what can they do is for Dallas, whereas for Boston, it's like, okay, we're just going to keep doing what we do. So, yes, it's probably over, probably over, but not necessarily. You know how I always talk about these things regarding series and how important evening up that series after one game is because you sit there and go, can they win three of the last five games? And that seems plausible whenever it is a reasonable matchup, right? Like, okay, you just got to go three and two the rest of the way and you've got the best player on your team.

whereas now you're in a situation where you've got to beat that team four out of five times and that seems like an impossible task given that you are not the better team you might have a player that can even things out but i agree with the overwhelming sentiment that you had to get that one like and especially given what boston shot that you got another lackluster offensive Jason Tatum game, and you got a low percentage from three that was made, and your defense held up enough. Like, it's a number.

I told you anything under 110, and you could play in that range. And I thought at the very beginning of that game, I was like, oh, here's the adjustments. and they are, and yes, Boston is missing some shots that maybe they hit in game one, but that's the way this goes, right? Sometimes they're going to be hot. Sometimes they're not. And when they look really bad, like the first six minutes of the third quarter in game one,

it's because they're not making those shots. And when they look devastating like they did in the last six minutes of the first quarter of game one, then they look devastating and it's an avalanche hitting you. well, that can't happen. But it felt like they're getting out faster. They're not allowing Boston to set up their defense on every play. They're getting some stops. And then they're getting the ball up the court and they're getting into some actions pretty quickly.

And they even mentioned it on the broadcast. And then that started to peter out. Like that was not a all-game event that was taking place. and even so at the end of the first quarter, I was like, man, if they could keep this score low, drag this game into the mud, and get this thing close for the last five minutes of the game, that's their advantage to me.

But they were never able to get it close enough, even when they got it at the end of the game to whatever it was, you know, a reasonable number given, I think it was eight, with about four minutes left, and then they had the couldn't get the ball past half court, Drew Holliday, who just owned the game, another steal, tosses it back, Derek White hits that three.

Now it's 11. And it's like, you can't have even the most minor mistake like that because they will exploit it. And now that is ballooned back up. And then even when they went on their run. First play of the game. Chris, first play of the game.

We talk about mistakes, Back on defense, Luca, I think was cross-match, the Drew Holiday of the first play of the game. Got it behind the defense and got a layoff. I mean, but then even at the end when I said that, you know, White hit that big three to make it 11, even by the time they hit their run and, you know, Boston kind of started playing with their food, it's too many points to make up. It doesn't matter. A nice 9-0 run. That 9-0 run would have been nice if you're down 8. unfortunately you were down like 14 at that point.

So you had a 9-0 run. Now it's at 5. Then you have the PJ Washington play. It was a bridge too far. And so I felt like, you know, Boston did not play well in this game. Played very well defensively, but did not play very well offensively in this game. And it's going to be one of those ones that haunt you that this was a, this was a dud that you put up offensively in this one because it there are a lot of things

that took place in that game that you would have thought added up to them stealing a win in Boston and it did not no doubt it no doubt about it it it's going to be the game that haunts the mavericks unless they tie it up two too too and they win both games at home but even even then you'd be like oh we could be up three one that's right because of this game like the fact that they had so many open shots. One of the differences between game one and game two is in game one, Boston wasn't sending it as two towards Luca as much as they were in game two. They were helping off of those Dallas non-shooters or non-serious threats. I don't want to call them non-shooters. Like Derek Jones Jr. can hit threes. P.J. Washington hit over 50% of his threes against Oklahoma

City. Like they can shoot, but they're not threats. But they were helping off those guys. And then you have possessions where Derek Jones Jr. Air ball is a wide open three. I mean, like you have these plays where Luca has two sent at him and teammates aren't hitting anything at all. So Boston did slightly change their defense, and yet it didn't matter. So I think for Dallas moving forward in the series,

if the role players aren't going to hit threes, you're probably screwed. Oh, yeah. And that is what you've got to hang on to, is that at home, role players play better. Yeah. Yeah, that's what you'd hope. That's what you'd hope that they get comfortable at home,

that the nerves are out, the Boston crowd was just part of the shock of being in the finals. Like, that's what you hope for if you're the Mavericks. But if the role players continue to not shoot well or if Boston has a ridiculous shooting night and the Mavericks have an average or just good shooting night, that's where it does come down to the best players. And Kyrie Irving ultimately has been really bad in this series.

We talked before the series, like how do you stack up the seven, eight best players in the series, right? And we said Boston has five of the best seven. And Kyrie would be like, you know, Luca would be one. And then Kyrie would be two, three, or four, depending on how you want to put them up against Boston guys. Well, you'd take probably six of Boston's guys ahead of Kyrie in the series. So it's Luca and then six Celtics and then Kyrie Irving or PJ Washington and then Kyrie Irving. And that needs a change for the Maverick. to have any chance at all in this series. I mean, like, it has to be on Kyrie.

As much as I say, Luca needs to, like, turn into Michael Jordan and take 30 plus shots in some of these games, which I still believe. More than anything, it's about Kyrie Irving doing something. Because at least earlier in the playoffs, Chris, we could have said, well, you know, Kari had some off-night scoring,

but he was defending. He was making a difference as a playmaker. In this series, Boston's size, has made Kyrie's efforts on defense pretty insignificant. Because everybody's been talking about how they're attacking Luca, which is true. Luca's been not good on defense. He looks like a revolving door on the perimeter. He's allowing guys to get by him, which is allowing kickouts, especially Tatum is getting by Luca.

That's all true. But it's also true against Kyrie Irving. It's also true against their centers where they're getting pulled out, whether it's Gafford or lively. It hasn't mattered. So I think for Dallas, you can say, well, find ways to hide Luca. Well, okay, well, then you're also going to find ways to hide Kyrie. Well, you also have to find ways to hide, you know, Gaffir from getting pulled out on the perimeter.

And then that means Kyrie Irving sometimes when you're a low man. It's a major matchup problem for the Mavericks in this series, which is why I just think it comes down to this clash of styles. Boston, it's everybody eats. And then for Dallas, it's got to be this superstar hero ball, Luca takeover style of play where he's forcing two or three guys at him and just creating massive amounts of open shots and cuts. I think it has to come down to Luca, has to come down to Kyrie, figuring something out, and Luca being even better.

It's one of the things that we have learned over and over again as these playoffs go on, which is these series are, so intensely matchup dependent. It is not necessarily about who is the best team, who is, it is about how you match up with them, right? Because Minnesota provided a uniquely terrible matchup for Denver. Now, Denver or Minnesota might actually present the more difficult matchup against Boston. It's like rock paper scissors, right? But Dallas is the one that is there. And so Dallas, because of the way that they could get away with playing their defense, their boxes and elbows, because there's really one guy that can really dribble and beat you off the dribble on Minnesota, and that's Edwards. And even when you saw them without Conley, it was, it stuck out like a sore thumb because he's just another guy that could dribble and make a play off the bounce.

And so you weren't then, you were able to play this kind of defense. that you weren't going to get slaughtered by because they're not going to bang a ton of threes on you and they didn't really have the guys that get trouble. So your boxes and elbows with your bigs and your 48 minutes of Gafford and lively was great. And yet you get to Boston and everyone can make a play off the bounce.

And so now it's like, oh, Minnesota could not expose the fact that you've got guys, that could get beat off the dribble. Now, as soon as, I mean, it is just, and you see so many teams at the NBA do it. Paint touch, kickout. Paint touch, kick out, right? The goal of driving is not always to score, even though they are able to score at the rim.

They're getting into the paint, and then they're kicking out, and now that defense is moving. And then there's another guy that beat you off the dribble. So now even if you close out, now they got another guy that can beat you off the dribble. And so the way Dallas played their defense, they were able to get away with it. Oklahoma City missed a million threes. They shot way below their percentages. And Dallas made a million threes. PJ Washington over 50 percent.

Derek Jones over 40 percent. They were like I posted the airball Jones three. And a thunder fan responded to me. He's like, we played the same defense. And he was hitting this every time. Every time. And that's where for Dallas, it's like, well, we are getting some quality shots. It's just we're missing them.

Like if you look at their, there, you know, the, like you said, shock quality, it's not too different round by round. It's actually pretty much the same round by round.

But in terms of the actual makes, it's way lower against the Celtics. So maybe the law of averages are in their favor back in Dallas and it ends up two, two, and you know, who knows? Like, that's always possible.

But I still can't help but shake the feeling that, you know, we talked about after game one. that Dallas is going to have to change some aspects of who they are. And one of the things that I saw in game two that was interesting was Luca post-ups. He did three of them in game two. And one of them, I believe, was against Derek White. He scored over him.

One of them was against Drew Holliday. He had some crazy fadeaway. And then one of them was against Tatum, where he forced a kick out, I think, for an open three. Or PJ Washington had a three and he dribbled into a floater. So I scored all three times on the Luca post-ups. and the size advantage and the power advantage and the skill advantage that Luca has. I think Mimi, that's something Dallas should look at. But again, they weren't a heavy post-up team.

Luca is not a heavy post-up player. That is them changing who they are. But Tatum also isn't, you know, 12-assist playmaker. Tatum is embracing what he needs to in order to find Drew Holiday on those cuts. That's what is required sometimes at this level of basketball, this deep into the player. off. So I think for Dallas, the Luca post-up is one of those things that was successful for them in the half court. And maybe that provides a completely different look against Boston that they should try to hammer more and more and see if that can create some open shots, even if it only works for seven, eight, nine minutes of the game before Boston figures it out. Like, that could be enough to create an edge for you in the game. After all, sometimes that one big run is all it takes to win a game. Well, and the easy thing is to just look. And sometimes it can be so simple.

How are your stars performing? And you mentioned Kyrie earlier. If he's going to be 12 points and 16 points and 6 of 19 and 7 of 18, it's not doing, right? He's been terrible. And I told you coming into this series, their big advantage has been Luca Karee lively. That three-man lineup, regardless of the other two. guys was plus 20 per 100 possessions throughout these playoffs. So the sample size grew and grew and grew, and they were absolutely dominant when

they had that. In the two games so far, they have had a 94 offensive rating and a 128 defensive rating for minus 34. So what was their absolute most devastating and the most devastating? and the most devastating three-man lineup in the entire NBA playoffs went from plus 20 on average to minus 34. And that is a 54 point difference. Their best went to, I mean, you're getting slaughtered with those three guys on the court. And you look, you know, and you know this.

lively is 100% dependent upon the other two. Frankly, all of them are. They're all playing. None of those guys are creating their own stuff. They're all playing off of Luca and Kyrie. So Luca and Kyrie both have to be simultaneously good. It's not even simultaneously great. You just can't have Luca be great and Kyrie be awful.

If Kyrie's just good, if he's, He's 11 of 19 instead of 6 of 19. It's a different world. If he makes a three, he hasn't made a three yet in two games. Crazy. And he's not some open ones. Right. And so you've got these guys, right?

Like, they're all, those are all guys that need to be created for. And they have also decided Boston, they're doing a great job defending them. They are. Like, those guys, you're going to, and I thought Dallas on the other side, again, I thought their defense was good enough. Their offense isn't good enough. Their defense has been good enough, I thought. Despite everything, despite the way Boston's attacking mismatches, like, despite all that, it's been good enough. And it's kind of like, you know, they're giving up a lot of twos, but in game two, I felt like, and I know that everybody was just saying like, oh, it's not like

Boston was just getting to shoot fish in a barrel. I mean, the closeouts were a lot better. I agree. The contests were a lot better in game two. Creating some tougher passing lanes. It felt like a lot of off-target passes from Boston and that it causes turnovers. It causes like, you know, passes that you can't catch cleanly into your shot.

So, like, I think Dallas was even better defensively. But Boston has spaced them out so much that they can't guard the rim anymore. How about this for a number? Game one in the restricted area, Boston was 15 for 15. Game 2, 20 of 27. That's a lot of shots, man.

Now, I would, and I would argue that they're willing to give that up, right? They're pulling the guy away. They're not going to just stand back there and guard the paint. And if you get a two, then you get a two, but you're not getting a three. Right? And you're just trying to play the numbers here because it's six or one a dozen. You're giving up. Sometimes you're just going to give a bunch of layups then.

But we're willing to give up a bunch of layups. Their rim protection, though, had been that had been their hallmark of their defense through these playoffs. Teams were shooting an abysmal number against them. And what I would tell you is it's not like they're. finishing against someone at the rim now. It's not like there, it's that there's nobody at the rim now. Because Boston's space in the out. And Drew Holliday runs the baseline and hits another layup.

Do you see his shot chart last night? It was all in the restricted area, pretty much, except the one three. And when do you remember Drew Holliday finishing over somebody? I mean, there's a lot of open shots. But I think what you're saying about Boston's five-out spacing ability. And sometimes Drew Holiday isn't even spacing. He's in the dunker spot hanging around. That's a guard doing that.

But their ability to space five out, Dallas can't do that. Because even when it's Max and Cleba out there, Boston's not worried about him right now. So, like you said, one of the things you said earlier in passing is interesting to me. You said, like, Derek lively and Daniel Gaffeter guys that are 100% reliant on Kyrie Irving and Luca for their offense. I think one other aspect to consider in terms of that 100% is maybe those guys are 90% part of it, but also the defense is part of their success as well because Boston's switching,

the defensive choices have removed them. Boston's defensive scheme with their switching and their defensive size, where you can't just throw the ball of those guys and they can finish over somebody. Even Derek White provides room protection. Drew Holiday provides room protection. as these smaller guys on the floor.

They're not so small. They're great defensive players inside as well. It makes me think about all the conversation around Rudy Gobert, how Gobert sometimes becomes irrelevant on offense. That's happening right now with lively. It's happening with Gafford. Whereas on the Boston side, well, Porzing is if they play high pick and roll, you know,

and they take that away, well, he can still space. He can post up. He can face up. Al Horford isn't that type of player, but he can space the floor from three. He can attack a closeout. He can do stuff from the perimeter, run a dribble handoff. Biggs, like, we're seeing the disparity and the level of skill and how much it matters from the five position, I think, in these playoffs,

especially against Boston's switching scheme with all their size. I know we just saw Blythe have great success throughout the postseason. Gafford, too. I don't want to take that away from them. but Boston is uniquely equipped just to completely take that away in the same way that Dallas kind of was against the Timberwolves with Gobert. The NBA Finals are here and Fanbills giving you a chance to win alongside the champions because right now new customers get $200 in bonus bets with a winning $5 bet.

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think if you're Jason Kidd and his staff, you're going back to the lab and you're saying, okay, here's the number one thing that we've got to do. We have to figure out how we do not get absolutely crushed in these poor Zingas minutes. Now, let's just assume that he's going to be okay for game three. I know what he has said. I know what Missoula has said. He couldn't run at the end of two. So maybe he's fine. Maybe he's fine. But I know this. I saw the on-off court number. today for Porzingis. On court, their offensive rating, 122, off court, 96, 26 point difference. Defensive rating, on the court, 96 per 100 possessions, off the court,

112.5, a 17 point difference. So his on court, their net rating has been plus 26, his off court, minus 16.4, a 42 and a half point difference per 100 possessions. You have got to figure out how to, I mean, that is getting mangled when this guy is on the court. Because he hasn't played, it's not like he's playing 35 minutes. You are just getting destroyed. So they've got to figure out on both ends, what are we doing in the Porzingis minutes? because the Horford minutes have gone their way.

The net on that, on off, is actually minus 24 for Horford. Like, they're holding up and they're playing well. It's this element of Horford, or I'm sorry, this element of Porzingis that is just off, literally off the charts. You never see that. Where a team has been that amazing with a guy on the court and that much worse. Just his presence on off court has made all the difference in the world. They're actually losing when he's not on the court.

So you've got to figure out what are we doing with this poor Zingas stuff? Because whatever that is, those 25 minutes, we're getting crush in those. And so I don't know what the answer is, but I do know just by looking at the numbers of, there's been no bigger factor in this series through two games than Porzingis. It's been freakish. It's such a disparity compared to what Dallas is bigger doing. And I think when Porzingis is out there, you probably do need to test him as much as possible in pick and rolls. Because that's the one player Boston is not switching on to the perimeter.

They're switching basically everything else. Well, Drew Holliday fighting over sometimes as well. But they're switching a lot of everything else. Porzingis, they drop. And that is allowing Luca or Kyrie to dribble into pull-ups. And so maybe when Porzengis is out there, regardless of who is the screener, that's something you have to go to. I think that that has to be maybe something that they figure out to do.

And if they are able to get Gafford or lively involved in that action, try to force Boston to do some pre-switching somehow and get that guy rolling down the lane, maybe that's how you can activate them in the half-course. because I think it all starts there with getting those lobs, getting those easy at-rim opportunities, and then that's what can open up more of those corner three-point opportunities, because that's what they're missing, the lobs of the corner threes, when that's been so critical to their success throughout this entire run, it's gone. Boston's defensive game plan has been masterful.

You've got to give credit to Missoula and that staff for putting this together. They've been outstanding through two games. They've made two corner threes. It's crazy. And it is one of the things when we talked about this series going in, and I said, like, Vegas has this at five. It's got me scared. And one of the stats that I reeled off was they are, they're best in the league against Lobbs, best of the league against quarter threes. But this is a different test. We'll see if that holds up. And it has bared fruit for them. I do wonder, do you think there's any chance you just try to go five wide if you're Dallas. Yeah. With Cleba out there.

Yeah. Is there a chance you just try to go five wide and just say, okay, now that lob and like, they're pulling our guy away from the, like you were talking about with the Gobert, the old like, okay, let's just try this a different way because the lobs aren't working so we're not, and we're not grabbing a ton of offensive rebounds. And on defense, they're pulling the guy away from the basket and Drew Holliday, just making layups anyway. So we might as well just space it out.

Because you could see him like, and maybe it gives you a little life on office. You could see him starting to search as that game went on. Like, all right, let me try Hardy. All right. Let me dust off Dante Exum. See if he could make a shot.

He even called out Exum in the press coverage and said it was nice that Exum came in there and knocked down an open three. You know, maybe we could, maybe that can happen. Maybe we can find a guy that can knock down. in open three because I know he just had to be mortified when Derek Jones Jr. pulled up and almost killed a fan in the third row with his frigging airball.

I mean, there was nobody within 50 feet of the guy, and he just missed the goal by 40 feet. That was the craziest thing ever. And so maybe you text him, what the hell happened at Tim Hardaway Jr.? He just, he's just gone, huh? At least he's a vet that's like played in a bunch of playoff games. I figured he put him out there for a minute. It's kind of odd. maybe we'll see him before this series is over.

I don't know. But I did wonder last night, like maybe is that something you try to do? All I know is they've got to figure out the Porzengis minute and especially, you know, maybe that's the only way you can pull him away from the basket as far as you want to. Yeah, sure, maybe. But sometimes what Boston is doing.

Sometimes what Boston's doing is. they're putting Porzingis on the worst shooter that Dallas has on the floor, whoever it might be. And they're letting that guy space. They're letting Porzingis kind of roam towards the paint off that guy. And then they're having Tatum defend Gafford or defend lively. And that's what I'm saying.

And Tatum, who, everybody's talking about Tatum's lack of scoring through two games, which is completely fair. Nobody's talking enough about how stellar he's been on defense, defending those Dallas Biggs, how great he's been defending Luca and sometimes Kyrie on ball, making things hard on them. His playmaking on offense has been pivotal to their half-court success creating for Drew

Holiday. So while he hasn't scored, I think overall Tatum's impressed in every other facet of the game. And so I think that's the matchup problem for Dallas is largely due to Tatum because of his versatility where he can defend those bigs and then Porzingis can roam off of somebody else, which is why, to your point, maybe Dallas just says screw it. There's nothing to defend, though, except just making sure they don't dunk. But you're saying poor Zingis? No, when you're saying, when you're giving Tatum credit for being able to guard them, like, just don't let them dunk. He's providing size. He's providing strength, and he's switching on ball.

Or now to the Luca. We're to go bare mode on Tatum. He's getting credit for average play. Yes, he is. he's getting credit for average play because the criticism went too far so now people are going too far for him and the way he has played can we agree can we agree that he's been a stinker of a score can we agree on that he he is suck at scoring he's lost at score that's right can we agree that he's been pretty good as a playmaker he's been fine he's had a lot of turnovers too his six turnovers in game one were abysmal game two was he pretty good Yeah, he's fine.

I mean, he's driving and kicking. And then defensively, he's been good. Then all right. They've been attacking him a lot. Yeah, because he's defending Luca and Kyrie. This guy is a superstar, though, and people are now talking about him like he's little Johnny that hardly gets to play. I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, it's go bare mode, it really is.

I'm not saying he should be finals MVP. All I'm saying is that he's been good in other areas of the game and the ways Boston needed, which is why Brad Stevens. their fourth best player. Would you agree? Yes, I agree. Which is why Brad Stevens built out this roster the way he did. Earlier in the season, I remember posting on X saying something like,

and Celtics fans got pissed at me for this for some reason. They've been angry a lot this year. And I said something like, you watch the Celtics, a lot of the times Chris Stap's Porzingis and Derek White are their best players. And that's been true throughout the year. And that's why Brad Stevens assembled the roster in this wake, because Tatum is not a top three, four, or four. five guy. Jalen Brown is not

a top five guy. But they have a bunch of guys, Tatum, maybe seventh, eighth best, Brown, 15th best, and then they have a bunch of guys in the 20s and 30s of best players in the league. Porzingis, Holiday, white, these guys who can elevate their

play on any given night, Jalen and Tatum included. They have a bunch of good players. And I think the way this roster is constructed is what allows Tatum to be not great. Tatum doesn't need to be a superstar for this selfish team to have success. And that's a credit to Stevens for building out the roster this way and making that investment

in guys three through six on the roster and not just banking on Tatum taking another leap or Brown taking another leap. And by the way, they have because Brown's improvement as a handler and Tatum's improvement as a passer going not just necessarily this year, but throughout their history. Let me be clear. He is awesome. Everybody knows the guy is awesome, all right? And everybody knows that everything plays off of the two J's, Jalen and Jason.

And that those guys are able to be, Drew Holliday's able to get all those layups because he's on the court with those guys. Make no mistake about that. I understand the gravity in which he has, okay? But that's what superstars get. They get gravity. Luca provides the gravity. And Kobe provided the gravity and Steph Curry provided the. the gravity and those guys are superstars.

And to me, what has happened here is the criticism of whatever he isn't got too great. Right. People start talking about what he isn't rather than what he is too much. And so now the response to that to me has gone over the top with everybody telling me how well Jason Tatum is playing. And the MVP clearly of game one was for Z. And the MVP clearly of game two was Drew Holiday. What about Jaylon Brown?

Jailen Brown's been fantastic and his defense has been crazy. That highlight you posted last night of that angle of him locking up Kyrie. Oh my God. Yeah. There ain't many dudes in the world that can do that. Yeah. That was a really good angle. Yeah.

Dude, he is. No, you know I'm a huge Jalen Brown fan. Right? It's just this team does. the way we've talked about this team, it's kind of like Jason Tatum and everybody else because he is the one that gets first team all NBA, all the accolades and everything else. That's the way it is. But they are a complete basketball team. And there's no question that right now that let like the Porzingas thing, and this is what I keep kicking myself about, like I thought, man, this guy is not going to be able to come back.

Again, it's not even a two game series. He's still got to make it through the old way. And I thought at the end of game two, I'm like, oh, my God, did he really just get hurt again? And he might have. And we'll see. I mean, he's, he said after the game, he's like, I'll die out there. I got you. I'll be good for game three.

He might be good for game three. He has to be himself, right? Because he was not himself. You see, he wasn't even contesting anything before they got him out of the game. There's definitely something wrong. He couldn't run. For sure. Something's wrong.

On Sunday night, something was wrong. Will there be something wrong on Wednesday night for game three? I don't know. Who knows? He might be 100% fine. Adrenaline kicks in and he's all good. But he could also be worse in game three. And that's where things could shift for Dallas.

Because if Boston has to go to cornet minutes or Tillman minutes, that's where Dallas can structure their rotations in a way to try to shred the Celtics in those minutes and figure out other ways. Because poor Zingas has been so outstanding through two games. He's been absolutely unbelievable. in every single way. It's been also awesome to watch the numbers. The numbers are the numbers.

Like what they've done with him on the court versus, like their offense is infinitely better. Their defense is infinitely better when he's on the court. Like that's the number one trick to me that they've got to go and pour over on the laptop. What are we going to do in these Porzingis minutes? Because we are getting, that's where we're losing. I think you attack them.

What you do is you would. attack him over and over and over and over and you try to wear him out and you try to get him out of the game in that way. That's what I think you got to do is I think you have to try to go at him because even though you fear him, even though he's a great defender, I think you have to try to wear him down. And to me, I think that's what you're going to do. You got to do that. You're going to get him out of there. He's too good. Like you're going to lose a series of Porzingis is playing 20 plus stellar minutes like he did in games one and two. Yeah. And I, at the beginning, the big picture.

is obviously very daunting, which is the winning four out of five in order to win the finals. The small pitcher is you've just got to try to tie this thing up at home. And I will say, I would be very surprised, honestly, just from watching series over the years,

I'd be very surprised if Dallas did not respond and win game three. And the reason is, as we always say, you can never, you can't fate desperation. And that is a totally desperate team playing in their first home game in the NBA finals as a unit.

Their role players are probably better. Everybody's going to be cheering you. Boston, there's just, you can't fake it, right? It doesn't matter. If you lose, it's not the end of the world. And then you come back and try to win game four. And then you go close the thing out in five, which is exactly. what Las Vegas had.

I was unsurprised when I saw Dallas's favorite in game three. Because even in series where the other team mashes the other one, if the team gets a game, it's game three. Then they win that. And then the other team makes adjustments, get serious about it. And they're like, all right, we want to be able to close them out on our home floor. And so then they win four. And now you get that home game five.

and I mean, this is honestly playing out probably exactly how the Vegas playbook had it, which is Celtics win the first two, Dallas wins three, Boston wins four, Boston wins five, end of series. That's if they're right, right? Because they gave five games the lowest odds. You and I both thought it would be different than that. But I do feel like I would still feel very differently about the series and Dallas's opportunity if Porzingis is not Porzingis. Yeah, for sure.

I mean, I think you look at historically, Chris, I mean, only 7.4% of teams have come back and won a series down 2-0. And we saw that in the finals in 2021 with the Bucks. In 2016 with the Cavaliers when they, of course, were down 3-1. We saw it with the heat in 06, 77 with the Blazers, and in 69 with the Celtics. So it has not happened many times at all in NBA history in the finals. Probably enough, two of those are pretty recent, huh? Very recent, exactly. Two of them within the last 10 years.

Within this year's playoffs, we saw the Pacers down 2-0 against the Knicks come back and win. Last year we saw the Warriors down 2-0 against the Kings. The year before that, we saw the Mavericks down 2-0 against the Suns. The year before that, like I said, the Bucks in the finals, the Clippers in the playoffs, the Bucs also earlier in the playoffs. The Clippers, again earlier in that same playoffs did it. So it happened four times in 2021 and then won each year since.

So it has happened more regularly in recent years. And we've seen game seven's forced, right? Because Minnesota, Denver came back and ended up forcing a game seven. Boston forced a game seven last year. Weren't they down three zip? Yeah, they're down three zip to Miami. Yes, they were down three zip and they forced a game seven. So they were down three zip.

Exactly. So it's happened. It's happened where teams are forced game sevens, and it's happened recently where teams have come back. So it's not, so to tie it to the beginning of our conversation, you said, is it over? Well, it feels like it's over, but it's not over yet. And I think that's where it comes down to my points about Luca. Time to show that you're Luca legend. I think he needs to be shooting more often. I don't think he's shooting enough. I think all the defensive criticism of him is fair. He petered out in the fourth, Kev. He did, and maybe he just doesn't have enough energy. Maybe that's it. Maybe this is the little banged up. He is. Maybe he also, this is the year that Luca has the Yokich lesson where he's like, okay, I actually

need to get in tip-tops shape. Maybe this is the year that he learns that lesson. But I still think you need to look for Luca to shoot 30 plus times. That's just my take. No, they needed him to carry them. And honestly, like, look, kid couldn't even put him on the bench. You remember he tried to put him on the bench for a minute. The lead blew up and he had to bring him right back in.

So he can't even get a breather. It's hopeless. Yeah. He has to be out there. Which is why Kyrie needs to be better. Yeah. What the hell? What's going on with him?

Just getting swallowed up. He's getting swallowed up by bigger defenders. Yeah. There was a game. Was it a, was it game seven against Minnesota? I forget which, or it's not against Minnesota against game five against Minnesota or something like that where he had like the tape on his

shoulder. I'm not, nah, I just think he's... I'm not blaming it. I'm just saying I wonder if there's some secret injury. Boston's defense is the secret injury. I mean, they're doing an unbelievable job on him. I would agree, but I'm just wondering if that there's something that's going on

that might be affecting him. And Jason Kidd, I watched his whole press coverage last night. You know, his idea is, I thought he got a lot of good shots and they didn't go in. That was his coach's opinion. And so if that is so, when we're talking about the whole shot quality thing, you know, earlier in the show, then maybe if he's still getting those shots, maybe, you know, the night that they, maybe they'll go down in Dallas, right? maybe, you know, that 6 of 19 again, it just has to be 11 of 19.

It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be 15 of 19. It's got to be 11 of 19 instead of 6. And that gets them, you know, then he's scoring at least 22 points instead of like, because there's, it feels, it feels like it's impossible, unless they're like at 55 or 60 between the two of them. it just feels hard to feel, you know, to see where you're coming up with the other 55 points, unless something, you know, unless you get like a odd 30 ball out of PJ Washington one night or something crazy, which that kind of stuff happens as well, right? Uh, where somebody unexpected gets you big points, but they can keep looking for the third guy to be able to score for them.

The second guy needs to score for them. That's the answer. Kyrie Irving's had 28 points in two games, and he shot 13 for 37. That can't be. You got no chance. You got no chance if that's going to be his numbers. So we'll see if he goes along for the ride when they get back to Dallas. Certainly, I would expect Dallas to respond that if they're, I'd be surprised if they'd

be surprised if they didn't win game three. I don't know about game four, and we'll get to talk about it after game four. Let's just get to a couple other news items before we get out of here. Dan Hurley decided he's staying at Yukon. The report came out of six years, $70 million is what he turned down. I know all the reporting. I have seen all the reporting about how he was really torn and he waffled back and forth. And he was, you know, and then he just finally, he was really wowed by their presentation.

But then he finally just decided to go back to Yukon. you think this was a leverage play or do you think he really was thinking about being the lake lakers coach and really you know just had this painstaking uh you know moment where he just had to decide what my future is going to be do you think they lowballed him like that the money that was that was an offer that he could say no to and so it made it easier to say no to it. Because it wasn't like it was $100 million. It wasn't even like it was $80 million.

I mean, six years, $70 million, which is still a gargantuan amount of money. I don't know what to make of this. I don't know if this is a Dan Hurley. Oh, is this a Dan Hurley met with the Lakers? Lakers wanted him so bad. Lakers offered him the job. Now, that job ain't good.

And they don't keep their coaches around, no matter what they're going to say. You know, the last coach that's made it past, three years with the Lakers. Phil Jackson. Okay? And Vogel won a title, and he didn't make it past year three. And Darwin Ham was in the final four.

He was in the West Finals, and he didn't make it past three. And so is it one of those where I'm going to do the odd leverage, not leverage for Yukon, but leverage for the NBA in the future in the sense of, okay, you just saw it. You saw what the number was, and you saw the Lakers really wanted me. So now I can get any job I want whenever I want to get to the NBA, because now I'm in the mix as a desirable NBA candidate.

What do you make of it? What do you think? I believe Dan Hurley was genuine in taking a look at the Lakers and meeting with them and finding out what the offer was and what their vision was for the future with him. And I believe he decided that why would I, risk going to a team where I'd be the third coach in four years where there's been a history of not sticking with guys. Why would I go to a team that has a 40-year-old star? You know, it's going to be

forcing the team to draft his son who struggled as a freshman at USC and is nowhere near ready for the NBA. Why would I go to a team that has limited, you know, ability to to build in the years to come. Why would I go to a team where Anthony Davis had just had a great durable season, but as over the wrong side of 30? And why would I go to this team when I could wait and potentially three Pete at Yukon and then still get any job that I want in the NBA that might open up, including some that are in the Northeast closer to home where he can be near his family? See, that's how I felt, right? I felt like everybody's saying all this stuff like, oh, I want to, because even when he brought up the NBA, as you mentioned last time we spoke,

he talked about building with a young team and the lakers are old no i mean it would be that's the charlotte job right like with lamello ball and and and brandy miller and mark williams and that whole crew right like that's the kind of job where you can build out and see the vision for like six years and i've read that whole story where it's like they had this plan of you know they want to bring in his system and then the coach will be the star and right like Everybody always fancy themselves as having their own Popovich, their own Eric Spolstra, their own whatever. I live through that. They did it here in Memphis when they hired David Fisdale.

That's what it was going to be. We want our pop. We want our spolstrel. We want our. And so then they change all the stuff about culture and that now the walls are painted on the way to the locker room. And there's all these edicts and there's all this different way of doing stuff. And then as soon as you start losing, the GM blames the coach. The coach blames the GM.

and the coach ends up getting fired. Or you piss off your star like Fisdale did, Mark Gassall, and then the coach is gone. And it's like everybody always says they want to build the culture, that they want to establish something, and they want to, they want this to be long term. And then it just never is. It just never is. Like these guys don't, these guys don't keep jobs. The tenure of an NBA coach is not that long.

So I really felt like this wasn't, I felt like this was Dan Hurl. I felt like, okay, it's kind of like live golf. Somebody's going to give me $100 million, then I'll do it. Fine. And the offer, the offer was good. It was a good, it's a good offer. I don't think they lowballed by any means. I think for a first time NBA head coach, $70 million, six years for a guy who's going to have to change a lot of the things that are successful for him at Yukon.

Like their time of possession, as I said to you last week, it's like one of the slowest paces in the entire country. 18, 19 seconds of possession. Like, the stuff that works in college is going to have to change the NBA. That's a really strong offer to be the sixth highest paid head coach in the NBA when you've never done it before, in my opinion. I agree to disagree. But I think it's a competitive offer. I think that's probably a positive sign for the Lakers, but what's not a positive sign for the Lakers is that the fact that your team is not desirable. And that that's the fear here.

I also wouldn't want that number out there. because now I'm going to talking to these other coaches. I wouldn't want that number out there. Yeah, I'm sorry, but if you're like James Borago, you can't expect $70 million. J.J. Redick, I don't think you're going to expect $70 million over six years necessarily. Monty Williams can't. Monty Williams already got it. Monty Williams is going to be like Kurt Cousins, never win Dick,

and then just end up with $400 million in the bank somehow. Must be nice. Oh, man. But, yeah, I mean, I think for the Lakers, though, what hurts most is the fact that you wanted Ty Loo, you weren't willing to pay up for him. You wanted Dan Hurley. You didn't either offer enough or you weren't sexy enough. He didn't choose you.

He chose to stay in Stores, Connecticut, a college where he doesn't even like the NIL and the transfer portal and he's annoyed by all that business. and he wants to just focus on coaching and he still didn't choose you when you're the Lakers. Well, and I thought today. He didn't choose the Lakers because your team isn't desirable

right now because of the lack of young talent that's appealing to him because of the uncertainty with LeBron James and all that stuff because of the mistakes in recent years, your team isn't desirable. So if you're the Lakers right now, your rival, the Celtics are potentially about to win their 18th banner.

You're planning, hopefully, in a few years to make it, pursue Luca, Luca, well, Luca's in the finals right now, even if he ends up losing, like that plan might,

you know, never pan out for you. You need to build something that's appealing to players and appealing to coaches, clearly, because right now you're not. That's what's clearest

to me watching this whole thing play out. Well, no matter what you told him, what's happened is what's happened, which is as soon as things went bad, the coach got fired. As soon as things didn't go as well, the coach got fired.

even a guy that won the title, even a guy that went to the West finals. Within a year, he was gone, right? And so there's a level of trust. It's like, is Rob Polenka going to, if things don't go well, is he going to stick with me and say that, like, hey, it's not the coach's fault that things are going like this? Or is he going to save his ass again and say, hey, this roster is good enough? coach is a bozo and I just you know I picked wrong again and it's like it's hard to believe the latter when nobody has made it over three years and it's not like they have had some kind of incredible uh it's not like it's been dismal franchise you mean they were just in the west

finals a year ago and yet coaches can't keep those jobs um anyway now the guy goes back to now the guy goes back to Yukon. Good for college basketball, even if it's for a year. It's good for college basketball that Dan Hurley's staying in college. And I thought probably some leverage in that he'll be able to get whatever NBA job he was. Dan Hurley will eventually end up in the NBA. And maybe the Lakers will pull rabbit out of their hat and surprise us all with whoever they do hire. What's the next good job that would open up and appeal to a guy like Dan Hurley?

Kind of like looking ahead. I'm talking not this year necessarily. I'm talking a year or two or three down the line. Because the first one that comes to mind for me is the Philadelphia 76ers. You know, you got Mori and Nurse both signed through the 27, 28 season. If things don't work out there, that's a Northeast team. I could see them having appeal to Hurley in the same way that Jay Wright was always a rumor named there. Grant the Jay Wright has retired as a head coach.

That's a name that pops up in my mind for Northeast teams. But I mean, the Nets, they just hired a new head coach. So I'm not so sure how long that'll last there, but coaches don't last long. Maybe two or three years down the line if things don't work out there. What if the Knicks, maybe? I mean, if they stumble from the highs that they experience this year, seems unrealistic. I don't think so. definitely not the Celtics.

I don't know. Like, what's the next good job? I'm not sure. So, like, so, like, that's the thing with, like, the decision that he made, had to make here, there may not be it.

How long's Pop going to do it? I mean, I don't know. I mean, but are they going to go outside? Or are they going to try to find someone inside? You just ask me about jobs. Yeah,

yeah, I don't know. That wouldn't be because of lack of success. That would be because the guy just decides to go off and such. And obviously the best job is having that freak of nature on your team. Like for sure. Yes, exactly. Right. If I want a job in the NBA to grow with.

It's coaching Victor Wenbenyama. Right. A hundred percent. So I mean, I'm not really sure. The point is, is like, I'm not sure when the next better job becomes available. Because usually the good jobs, coaches keep them. And less, like you said, Victor were to, like Popovich were to retire and then Victor would be without a coach. But I would imagine the Spurs.

based on their history would stay internal. Maybe Orlando. I mean, again, I don't want to, look, I'm not trying to fire anybody. No, no, no, of course not. We're just looking three, four years down the line where things just, exactly. We know the way things go, right? Exactly. Three, four years from now, like, what's the job?

It could be Boston. It could be. I mean, he's a northeast guy. Yeah, it could be. Again, most guys are not in their jobs for five years. That's what we know. And Dan Hurley, he's only 51 years old. So he's still young.

And like Hurley, it could be seven or eight years or nine years from now when he's 60 that he decides. Okay, I'll take the NBA gig. And by that point, yes, maybe it could be Boston. And you never know, Kevin. Yes. You're always a year away. Mike Deutoni won a championship recently. He has, or I'm sorry, not Mike Booneaucer won a championship recently.

He doesn't have a job. Monty Williams was in a West Finals recently. recently doesn't have a job. Darwin Ham was in a West finals recently. Doesn't have a job. I mean, like this stuff, it happens quick.

It could be within a year or two. That you're, that you, you were riding high. Sometimes you, Frank Vogel won a title. Doesn't have a job, you know,

quickly. And then just got ran out of Phoenix in one year. Four, Mike Booneholes are nonetheless. Figure that out. Right? So, most of these guys,

don't have jobs for a long amount of time. Last thing I want to ask you, I saw this article that was listing off this draft thing because we're now a few weeks away from the draft. We'll talk more of it, obviously, in the next two weeks. This Zach Riseschay, I'm saying that correctly, right? Raseach, yeah. Okay. Do you have him number one right now?

No, I do not. In my mock, I have him number one, but on my board, I have them, I think, like, eight. Bro, his athletic number stunk. Yeah, they weren't, they weren't good. 31-inch vert? What? He ain't much of an athlete. Again, maybe a kid can play.

Maybe it doesn't matter. But I saw that, I saw this article about, like, listing off his, I guess, combine numbers that they had and, like, what? percentile he was in amongst his peers. Very low. Dude. Like, he had small hands. He had a low max vertical leap. He was pretty good in the shuttle, pretty good standing reach.

His standing vertical was 25, which was in the 5.8 percentile. That means 90. 4% of the guys have a better standing vertical leap than him? Again, I have no, his wingspan was short. I just looked at those numbers and saw the percentiles next to him. And I was in absolute shock and awe because he's been like number one on the ESPN board for some time. I believe. And I'm like, what's the deal here?

Like, does it not matter that the guy has short, arm small hands and can't jump? I guess it does. I don't know. I don't know. It was just startling to me. Is that, is that fair?

Or should it be startling? Part of me wonders if the measurements are done a little differently there. Okay. They were low for everybody. Okay. All right. They were low for everybody. I mean,

that's shocking, dude. I'm not, and I'm not defending Risa Shea by any means. I've been very critical of Risa Shea the entire season. I've been always been question. I always been questioned his shooting ability, like we talked about with my podcast, with Gavoni. I've always had questions about Risa Shea. But I also do have questions about the measurements.

Like they just, I mean, I think the hand size and the wingspan, that's all likely very, very accurate. But the athletic testing did feel a little low for even Tijon Salon. The other French prospect expected to be drafted in the lottery is a little lower than I anticipated. Because even for Risa Shea, I thought they'd be better than that. Bro, it said he had short arms, short arms small hands and he can't jump. Well, he definitely does have small hands and he definitely doesn't have a great wingspan. But the athletic stuff just felt like a little smaller than, you know, I could have anticipated. Okay.

I mean, they're pretty underwhelming, bro. Because even T. John Salon, who's a great athlete, he had a 32-inch max vertical jump and then a 20-year-old. 27.5 inch standing vertical. So maybe their measurements are screwy. Might be, or maybe some of those the overseas guys that have been playing games haven't been training for those

athletic tests because research has just been playing games within the last few weeks. Maybe they're like at the end of a 70 plus game season that they haven't invested time into those training those measurements. That's just, I'm just throwing those thoughts out there. That's something I've talked to,

people, a couple people with teams about it as well where they're like, I don't know, you know, not sure, but like stuff like Nicola Topich, their point guard, where he measured at six, six foot five point seven five without shoes, right? But his wingspan was six five point five. That's accurate. Like he has a minus wingspan or an even wingspan. And like he's a guy that there were rumors like he had, you know, a six eight, six nine wingspan. Well, clearly not. And that's the concern for somebody like him. I don't know. It just doesn't seem like much of an athlete to me.

Dante DiVincenzo had like a 42-inch vert. You tell me he jumps a foot higher than this guy? Yeah, well. That's crazy. That's crazy. I mean, I wouldn't read into it a lot. I would just look at the tape and say he's a solid athlete. I think he's a solid athlete, Reese is.

That seems like it. I know, that's what I'm saying. I would personally ignore the athletic test. And you can just watch the video and see with your eye eyes. He's not an, he's not an outstanding athlete. He's definitely not. But he's not a piss poor athlete either. He's not a bottom percentile athlete.

He's a solid athlete. I mean, I'm watching these NBA finals and I watch two wings that are Tatum and Brown. And I see there, I mean, those guys are super athletes. You know what I mean? those are the best of the wings that you have in the NBA. You can't be athletically, like, totally deficient unless you are mega-skilled. How much does athleticism matter? Derek Jones is one of the greatest athletes in the league.

Skills matter. He's starting on an NBA finals team. I don't think that's a great example. Well, it is. We just talked about how he's bricking everything from three. That means skill matters, skill matters, creation matters. And, like, I think if you want to knock Risa Shea, I think you're knocking him for concern. about his shooting. You're knocking him for concern about his handling ability.

Oh, that's good. So he's not skilled either. This guy might, this guy just stink. I mean, he can't jump. He's got small hands, he's got short arms, and he can't triple or shoot. I mean, what the, this guy's going to go number one in the draft. Okay. Look, and don't clip this and throw it in my face later when he's frigging Luca Donchich. Okay. Yeah, when he's playing next to Victor in San Antonio. Yeah, right. You guys probably going to end up being a 10-time All-Star because I'm shitting on it. By the way, a couple weeks ago, or maybe last week on the Ringers NBA draft show, I was talking with Kyle Mann about draft odds for number one.

The Hawks still haven't met with Rees-Resh. Because Reesachet's been overseas. They still... It's because they have a tape measure in their facility. As far as I know, well, they want to meet with them. They want to meet with Buzellis. They want to meet with Saar. As far as I know, they haven't met with those three guys yet.

They've met with Klingin. So I think with the Hawks side of things, like I said last week on the Ringer's NBA draft show, like the odds are really appealing for Klingin and for Buzellos right now as a number one pick because it's not locked in that it'll be Saur or Ries-Sachay. It's just not. It's not locked in yet. There's still so much time to go. They still need to meet those guys.

They still need to figure out what they're going to do in trades, whether it's trading tray or trading down from one or out from one. like we're not even close like we're close you know in terms of the days but we're not close yet in terms of process. I could for sure some cleaning go number one for sure. Me too

for sure. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. Yeah and I could see Quinn Snyder you know who has a lot of voice in in terms of basketball operations there and kind of helping build out that roster and they seem to be on the same page with him

and Landry and Kyle Corver. I could see him just saying, like, look, man, we know this guy's going to be good. We know how I can use him on defense. And we're trying to build out a winner here. We know this guy's won in high school. He's one in college. And we ain't got to worry about what that's going to be.

You know, this is not a swing for the fences, find the Hall of Famer. Because, and Quinn could actually be very, very good for Klingin as well. You saw the way how good he was with Gobert. I'm not saying this kid's going to be Gobert, but you saw how good he was with Gobert as his head coach and how much success they were able to have there. I could see Quinn really liking Klingin for sure. That wouldn't surprise me. All right.

We got a lot of stuff to talk about with the draft as it leads up to it. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez as always. And Kevin, I will talk to you on Thursday night. Have a good week. Must be 21 plus in present select states or 18 plus in D.C. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG. In Colorado, D.C., Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont.

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