The Mismatch - Jamal Murray Tears His ACL. Plus: The Bulls Aren’t Fitting Together, the Knicks Are at a Crossroads, and the Celtics Might Be Able to Make a Run.

Episode Date: April 13, 2021

This Tuesday it’s KOC’s flu pod as he and Verno get into the sad news that Jamal Murray tore his ACL on Monday night during a game against the Warriors (3:10), in which Steph Curry racked up an astounding 53 points (9:38). And they talk about what James Wiseman’s injury means for the Warriors’ season and why young big men can’t stay on the floor (13:53). Then they talk about Mark Cuban’s complaints about the play-in tournament after the Mavericks lost to the 76ers and how the Western Conference seeding could shake out with the Nuggets depleted (23:07). Finally they touch on what pieces the Bulls need to succeed (36:29), whether it’d be better for the Knicks to go as far as they possibly can this season or tank for a draft pick (42:54), and whether the Celtics can make a run down the stretch (52:34). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

They don't have guests. They have contestants. Ten Questions with Kyle Brandt is the perfect game show and talk show hybrid that you need. Check out 10 questions exclusively on Spotify. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. Join him easy does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k. Kevin O. Bomber, Kavanaugh, Kevin O'Compter, Kevin O'Compter, Kevin O'Chyndness.

Kevin O'Vacinated. Yeah. Burnow. Today's a fever pod for me after getting my second dose. on Monday. You are, you are, this is your flu game. You are your flu pod. Yeah, my flu pod.

As you can attempt to power through. Now, remember when we watched the last dance, it was actually like bad pizza or something, right? It was food poisoning. Yeah, right. The flu game, I guess they're not going to change it to the bad pizza Jordans when they come out in limited editions. I think they're still going to call them the flu game Jordans instead of the bad pizza Jordans. But you got your second dose.

I will say I had mine last week. So we are a fully vaccinated mismatch. You did your master's update the next day. I did. I did the which was extremely unwise. I should not have, I should have planned that out much better. But I was coming towards the, you know,

I was like three, between like three and four weeks since I had gotten the first one. And so I was getting worried. I didn't want to extend it another week and not be able to get an appointment or something. So I went ahead and did it. But that first day happened to be the day after I got it was the day of the first master's updates, which takes an insane amount of energy to do. and no lie in the first one that we did, I thought in the middle of it,

I'm like, I'm gonna pass out. I'm, I'm, I got, I got real lightheaded. And then I made it through, you know, you got a lot of adrenaline or whatever when you got a bunch of, uh,

mascots. You definitely have a lot of adrenaline. When you got a bunch of mascots day, when the mascots start dancing, then you got a lot of adrenaline with you. But, uh, when I got home that afternoon,

I mean, crashed. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I was just spent. I didn't have the big like fever like you've had, right? Like you've... I woke up middle of the night shivering and all that. I have like 100 fever right now.

But, you know, that's part of the side effects. It shows that the vaccine is doing its thing. And all I need, though, is a Photoshop of me as Michael Jordan leaning on you is Scotty Pippen. And that'll make my time. There we go. So, all right. Get to work. mismatch listeners. We know we'll get that

Photoshop surely by early evening tonight. All right, let's go through everything that has taken place. Last night was a really, really sad night in retrospect because what, right, I had

gotten home. I was at Grizzlies Bulls last night and I had gotten home and right before I was going to bed, I saw all the news come out about Jamal Murray. I didn't have that game on and it happened with like, I think 10 seconds left in that game. Like 45, 50 seconds, something like that.

Yeah, okay. It was less than a minute. Yeah. And Jamal Murray has this really bad, what appears to be at the time, a really bad leg injury, which now, as of recording, Sham Sharania has just reported it is, in fact, a worse nightmare scenario. It is a torn ACL that took place in the last minute of that. Nuggets Golden State game.

And I was reading, I believe, and this is, it was kind of eerie because I had read prior to that I think that was the Nuggets sixth game since the, since like Sunday, since the, you know, basically a week before they were playing there. They played on Sunday, April 4th, Tuesday, April 6th, Wednesday, April 7th, Friday, April 9th, Sunday, April 11th, Monday, April 12th. That's a lot of games. That's six games in a week. That's a lot of, yeah, unreal. It's, it's sad, man. I mean, you know, in basketball and in sports in general, injuries happen. And it's like, no matter whether you're playing on a black top court with your buddies, you know, I had a friend rupture his Achilles playing, barely jumped off the ground, just like Murray.

You know, barely, it was a normal action and it just, the knee just collapsed. And, you know, but the thing is, There are enough studies that show that playing as frequent games as the NBA has played the season can contribute to increased risk of injury, especially if a guy is dealing with a sore knee like Murray was. And it's just, it's awful. It's awful, man, because the Jamal Murray this season is the Jamal Murray we saw in the bubble. You know, Dan Devine from the ringer had a great tweet this morning, like comparing the per 36 numbers in the bubble to the per 36 numbers this season. And Murray's development, his leap that he took going back to the bubble is one of the reasons why the Nuggett, have become serious finals threats, but also, you know, with that long run they had with the shortened off season and the compact schedule now, like might be one of the reasons why out with a

20 ACL, which is not going to just impact them for this year. I mean, it kind of removes them as finals threats, but it also can impact them next year. You don't know what version of Jamal Murray you'll get in nine, 10, 11 months, however long it takes to get him back. It's, it's awful. And it's awful that it happened in the last minute, too, of what could have been and should have been a great night. Yeah, and it's going to be a shame because you know inevitably that discussion is going to come up, the load in which these guys are being asked to take on, right? Which, everybody did this because there was, there's a pot of money that is to be split by the NBA. And so the players have representation in this. It wasn't as if they were just told this is what

you have to do. When you are given options and you say here, here's the amount of money that is at risk. If we don't do it this way, what do you want to do? Well, the players have a say in that. And so it isn't just the big bad NBA in this, right? They do not, this is, this is not just a decision they make and then they force the players to do whatever they say. The players had a hand in this. And it was just awful because given the circumstances and because of the TV money that was out there and available, you wanted to be able to pack in 72 games in an amount of time that 72 games should not be packed into. Right. And so then you have something like this happen. And we're going to find out, I mean, inevitably, there's going to be somebody that comes out with

this story. I don't know if injuries are actually up this year. But as we go down this stretch run, you just mentioned. Like that takes Denver out of it. It just does. And how many of these other teams are going to be taken out of it,

whatever their ceiling is, because they catch an injury in these last 20, 25 games of the season. Yeah. And you know what? This is one of the reasons why we're seeing a team like the Lakers be extremely cautious. That's why we're seeing the Brooklyn Nets be extremely cautious. It's not just because like these superstar level talents. It's because

of the schedule. It's also because of the schedule here and they're they're being overcautious here. And for Denver, you know, you look at their numbers or season. They're outscoring teams by 11 points per 100 possessions with Yokic and Murray on the floor. With just Yokach out there, they're getting outscored by one and a half points for 100 possessions. So like a dramatic difference, like Yokach and Murray, the chemistry those two guys have together. I don't think there's anybody else in that team that can make up for it. You will see Michael Porter get more touches. And I look forward to seeing what

he does with more scoring opportunities. But what Jamal Murray provides is a shooter off the dribble and a secondary shot creator. The chemistry in the two-man game he has with Yokic, removing that from the nuggets. They're out of it. They're out of it. It's sad. It's awful. I hate it.

And you and I talk about this at the trade deadline. This is by virtue of them making the Gordon trade that they don't have depth. They really don't. They have sacrificed some level of depth over the course of the last, you know, season and a half. And so they don't have somebody that they can just plug and play.

And honestly, like, their starting five is just, I mean, it is title contender caliber. Their bench is not. But, I mean, again, they don't have to have that many guys playing off the bench when you get it to a playoff run. But what exposes the depth is when you're going to. loose when somebody goes down. Like last night. You're going to see Campazo and Monte Morris get more opportunity and all that.

None of them are Jamal Murray. None of them can come close to being a guy who can drop 50. Well, and that story of last night's game, unfortunately becomes this terrible Jamal Murray injury. It would have been Curry's 53. Which was, I mean, it was 48 through three quarters.

And I mean, you see, I said, I remember when you and I were arguing at the very beginning of the year, and we were going through where these teams are going to be at the standings at the end, I said, Curry's going to have to average like 35 a game for this team to have a chance. And I'll be damned. Like, he's not going to average 35 a game, but I swear if he doesn't have huge games, they are just so behind the eight ball in every game.

Like, he has to have these. gigantic efforts. And you know the level of attention he gets anyway. He is, you know, you watch something like that and you go, man, I hope the Warriors, I hope Clay's okay, and I hope they can build around this because you've still got a couple years here where he is at absolute peak of powers and is certainly best guy on a championship team level player. and that's going to be for a couple more years,

but they've got to build around that. They obviously don't have the team right now, and it takes these superhuman efforts for them to be in games. Yeah, I mean, he's averaging 30.4 points per game this season. Remarkable numbers, the Warriors statistically are pretty good when he's off the floor, when he's on the floor,

and they're awful, just really, really bad when he's off the floor, which no doubt, Stefan Curry, we're talking about here, Mr. Two-Time MVP, multiple-time champion, but the Warriors, this season, it's interesting because they've suffered a lot of injuries to James Wiseman most recently

with the meniscus injury. And I thought in last night's game, it was not the first time this season, but it was one of the most obvious times where the Draymond Green role, he looked more comfortable than ever. He looked more like Draymond Green than ever before, where, you know, we've talked a lot all season about, well, how do you integrate James Wiseman? More pick and roll, you know, high pick and roll, middle pick and roll, like have him rim running and all that. but removing that factor from the equation does allow Steve Kerr to play a little bit more like he wants to with motion. Like they had like some greatest hits plays last night with some of the actions they were

running for Stefan Curry. Yeah. It's the type of thing where- Maybe the best version of them doesn't include trying to develop a second, you know, second overall. Yeah. You know, and it's just like this past week or so they've really just force fed the ball to Stefan Curry.

He's getting more shots than he was at any other point during the season. and I can't help, you know, I've seen a couple tweets about this in recent weeks, but Stefan Curry averages 11.7 three-pointers per game, an absurd number. But is there any part of you, Chris, that wonders if when we watch Steve Nash in his prime, he says he looks back at his career and he says he wishes he took more threes, is there any chance we look back at Stefan Curry? And why didn't he take 15, 16, 3 points for game? No, I'm serious.

Like, this guy is ludicrous. shooting off of any action, off of movement, off the dribble, stepbacks, pull-ups, sidestep threes, whatever it is, relocations, he can do it all. He can do it all. And I just wonder if, like, years from now would be like, why didn't he take even more three-pointers? Because you mentioned averaging 35, Chris, a couple more threes a game might not be out of the question for him to average 35 points. Just a handful more as a 40-plus percent three-point shooter. I just wonder if that we'll look back at Steph like we did with Nash, like should have shot more threes.

I don't know. Nash's was a low number though, Kevin. I mean, Steph's up there at the tops of most attempts ever. Yeah. And most makes ever. So I know. I know.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but it felt like Nash shot quite a bit at the time, averaging over four a game. Like that was a fair amount. That's a fair amount, Chris. It's not anymore. It's not anymore. Four.

Four is like centers. Center suit four a game. And I do want to speak on this Wiseman injury real quick. Twofold. Number one, with the torn meniscus, the reason that this one is fascinating to me and that there's going to be a decision to make regarding what line of recovery and rehab you do with him

is because I obviously have been close to a situation like this over the course of the past year with Jaron Jackson Jr. He did this in the bubble. He tore his meniscus. And, you know, I think a lot of people have sat back and go, why is he not back? Why is he, and he is supposed to be back within the next week or two? The reason he hasn't been back is because there are two different ways to go about it when you tear your meniscus. I would say the majority of guys, and especially guys that are later in their careers,

they get it removed, right? You've got this meniscus and you just get it removed. And that is not this extremely long recovery. What Jackson did and others have done in the past is they get it repaired. And so just think of it as if you've got like, if you got a string that's in your knee and it pops. and then I just say, all right, just get rid of the string and get rid of all the remnants of the string. And now you're just not going to have that. Or I tie that string back together and I've got to wait until it gets strong enough.

And in the meantime, you're talking about a young kid who's seven foot tall and he's still growing, right? I mean, he's now over, I saw him yesterday. He's over seven foot now. Is he really? Is that true? Like he's actually grown? He is over seven foot tall. And so you've got these.

You got these kids that are coming in at 19 and 20, and the same thing goes with Wiseman. I don't know if he's done growing or not, honestly. But you've got real decisions to make. And it is another one of these guys, Kev, we've talked about it, where it's like the bigs and especially like the 611s and overs, whether, and this goes back to Porzingis, and it goes to Jonathan Isaac, and it goes to Marvin Bagley,

and it goes to Wendell Carter, and it goes to Jaron Jackson, and it goes to James Wiseman. I mean, you look over the course of the past four or five years, and in Porzinka's case a little bit more, that these guys, yeah, these six tens and overs have had a very difficult time making it through their first, even three seasons without having some kind of real injury. And it's very fascinating to me.

You've got a lot more guys that are certainly, you know, play more above the rim. They all kind of face up, you know, now and play more like guards, even though they aren't in guard bodies. And on the Wiseman front, it's going to be fascinating because that can either be something that you do, just decide to do the quick thing and then come back, or you can do what Jaron Jackson's done, which is try to make the decision for the next 10, hopefully years of a career. and then it's just a long, you know, wait. It's a long recovery and a long rehab.

But I'm getting worried because it's like most of these guys, I guess Aitin's made it through pretty well over the course of the past couple of years, but it's become hard for these guys that are top 10 picks, you know, that are the big guys to be making it through uninjured. they're not even getting, they're not even fulfilling their rookie contract before they're missing an extreme amount of games. And Wiseman just falls into that category. Is Sharon Jackson Jr. coming back this season? Yes, within the next week or two.

Okay. So, yeah, for the first time, he spoke last week. I see. And he, they have been, and I do think you're going to see teams do this also. And I think obviously you're seeing the Lakers kind of do it with LeBron and AD, and they will do it. that it has been not airing on the side of caution, erring on the side of extreme caution, not just,

hey, this is the time that you can come back. We're talking a month, month and a half, after you would have normally come back, after you would have normally come back, in any other season or scenario, that it's an extra month,

month and a half to strengthen that thing, because, you know, you've got a guy that you want to put, you know, hopefully max money and pair him up with John Morant for the next 10 years together. And, you know, I see that. And, you know, we're going another season without Jonathan Isaac, too. You know what I mean? We haven't seen him at all. And I do think that what you're going to see is maybe these guys do this,

be out a little bit longer than normally would because now it's because now it's become really scary. They're drafting these big guys and there's going to be another one next year Mobley. Another mega athletic. Hopefully he stays healthy. No, no, no, no. But I'm saying another one drafted really high for sure. Really athletic big guy, you know, and skilled from the perimeter to, you know, like that type of game you're talking about. Yeah, the track record of these guys has been poor now in terms of being able to stay on the court. And it's not just like one of them. It's almost all of them, the big guys that have been drafted very highly. I mean, I guess Aiton would be the one that's probably, he's been on the court the most.

Aton's the name I was about to say. Aiton's the name out's about to say. And he also, but he plays 90% of the time, he is five feet from the basket. Yeah, he's an interior guy. And, I mean, he did miss time last season with the suspension and he missed a handful of games, but not like an extended, you know, months on months on months with a knee injury or anything like that. And, you know, hopefully fingers crossed, he's able to continue.

need to stay healthy too. But yeah, man, I, like there's always more concern. Like, you mentioned poor Zingis earlier. That's the concern with a lot of big men. Joel and Bede early in his career had a lot of injuries. Another guy who's been very perimeter oriented or at least, you know, he can start from the perimeter and then get to the inside. And, you know, you hope these players can can stay healthy. And a lot of that is with load management. Some of it is just luck, you know, the way a guy lands. And I think for the Grizzlies, it, It's the type of thing. We saw John Moran have a scary injury earlier this year and it came back pretty quickly,

like surprisingly quickly. And that's what you love to see is when a guy is able to, you know, it doesn't look nearly as bad as it is. But oftentimes it does look. Oftentimes it is worse than it. It is as bad as it actually is. And with Jaron Jackson Jr., I think he's been so out of sight, out of mind that people forget how freaking talented he is.

Like as a shooter, we mentioned earlier, like he's not Stefan Curry, but Steph can come off screen, shoot out the dribble. Jaron Jackson could do that too. Apparently now is a seven-footer. Like, he's super skilled from the perimeter. And I hope for him he can stay back and stay healthy. Because that combination of Jaron's Action Jr. And Jammarant could be fun for so many years to come.

Well, and now we are going to see, I mean, I guess as we talk about these athletic pigs and unfortunately, Wiseman falls into that category, like, I guess the trick is just do like Yolk it, you never jump. You know what I mean? It's hard to get hurt. If you're just shuffling up and down the court being awesome. Can I ask you real quick again, Chris? You said he's grown.

Is that like he just looks taller or has he actually measured taller? No, he has measured. He's over seven foot now. Yeah, there's an article with Mark Spears that was done in January. And he talks about being a footer now. He is a seven footer. And so he wanted to do things that seven footers do. He's finally over seven feet tall.

And so that is, but that's a real thing also, Kev, with these guys, with the young guys, is that, like, you know, back in the day, a big guys didn't face up and take guys off cross people over from the perimeter like the poor Zingases and the Jared Jackson's and all these guys do now. But the other thing was, you know, they weren't all come. A lot of them weren't coming in the league at 19 and 20 to where they're still. growing as they are coming in and then you're getting an injury while you're growing, right? Makes it makes very difficult and I would imagine the recoveries even more, more hard, you know.

But yeah, the Wiseman thing sucks and the Murray thing is horrendous and I hate that we're having to be talking about this. Last night, you mentioned MBEED. He was big time again and they end up Philly. gets this good win against the Mavericks who have been outstanding over the course of the last couple of months. But the big story out of that was not

anything that took place in the game, but rather after the game where the quote surface, you don't see in anordinate amount of Luca Donchitz quotes. And so when you see Luca Donchitz saying something and saying something

that has a lot of NBA relevance, given his place in the league as a superstar, it bears notice. And he not a huge fan of the play in. And so we kind of have this first superstar, at least this year, because we're getting to the point, give, it's standings watch time. Like all these games, we're going to be looking to see who's in seven, who's in eight, who's in nine, who's in 10, right?

And so before we get into the Donchich, criticism. of this. If you can just explain, do a quick refresher on how this is going to work and what is required of the 7th seed, the 8 seed, the 9 seed, and the 10th seed, in order to be part of what will be the conventional NBA playoffs. So in each conference, the top six seeds are locks. They're in the postseason. Seeds 7, 8, 9, and 10 enter a playing tournament.

in the way it goes is first game is seven versus eight the winner of that gets the seven seed the loser of that needs to face the winner of the nine ten game so right now if you look at the NBA standings in the Western conference Dallas is the seven if they lose to Memphis Memphis gets the seven seed and then let's just say the warriors beat the spurs then the Mavericks and the Warriors would play one game winner gets the eight seed and that's true in both conferences and like you say you said Luca is not a fan of it. He says, Oh, I thought they had to win twice. Yeah, yeah, Warriors would have to beat the Spurs and then beat the Mavericks in that scenario.

Oh, they just have to beat the Mavericks once, though? Yeah, but they have to win two games. So, like I said, if Grizzlies beat the Mavericks, they get the seventh seed. If the Warriors beat the Spurs, they have to also beat the Mavericks. So the 9 and 10 needs to win two games.

The 7-8 needs to win one game. That's the way it works this year in both conferences. And like Luca, Lucas said last night you play 72 games and then you lose one or two and you're out you know Well really too

You gotta lose two Really gotta lose two if you're the seven or eight And Mark Cuban said last night He thinks the playing is good for business But not good for you know competition I believe that's what he said right I don't want to make sure I'm not misquoting But right

Something in that spirit And it's a type of thing here where Cuban also said that he's a bigger fan of the playing tournament in terms of fairness that there's no conferences. Easy to say from a Western conference owner. However, I agree completely.

I think go without conferences. 100%. I mean, this is a different discussion or like a different day, but I'd like to see conferences removed as well. Like, I think that's just better.

It's fair. There's still ways of structure the schedule to help travel time and all that. Look, that is such a massive discussion and undertaking for the NBA. Yeah. Well,

let's deal with what we have. have at hand. And so number one, I would say, I'm a baseball fan. And so this happened with baseball. And they play even more. They play 162. Where when it came to the wild card, people really, you know, were upset about it at first. And it has worked out great for baseball.

I also think there's so many more teams that have that opportunity. And I am a fan of a team. in the St. Louis Cardinals that got the wild card and then won the World Series the year that they got the wild card. So of course, I love the wild card. I love the wild card because of the added excitement it gives as you're coming down the stretch for those extra spots, much like this, that you know, look, there's going to be 20 fan bases that know their team at least has a shot, at least as a shot at it. And I do think that that outweighs the personal opinions of some of the teams that are involved.

And two things. There are going to be fans out there, and I think rightfully so, I would include myself in this, that say, do you think we're getting these, you think we're getting these Mark Cuban and Lukadansk quotes if they're sitting at nine? Think we're getting them if they're sitting at 10 right now? I mean, probably not, but I mean, I personally like the playing tournament because it just gives more meaning to games deeper in the season. Is this a genuine, I don't like it because of the way it affects me at this moment or I don't like it no matter. I don't know. I don't know. It's impossible to know. I'm like, I'm sure they're not going to talk about it if they're the nine seed and say, oh, I don't like this. I don't think you say it, but that doesn't mean you don't feel it. And like we can't know that.

And ultimately, I think that overall, overall, it is a win for the league when you have more teams that feel like they're still in it. And more teams have something to play for. And that's true at the top end of it, whether it's the six, seven spot, fighting to get the six seeds so you are sure that you're not in the playing or the back end of it, you know, the middle of it, you know, getting the eight instead of the nine. So you only have to win one game or whether it's getting the 10 rather than the 11. and so you actually have a chance. Like, this gives teams an opportunity who might have had injuries earlier in the year, COVID issues, slow starts, whatever it might be, a chance to get in. And like, this is just one season, a single year trial.

They're doing it in this format after doing it the way they did last year with the bubble. So we're getting two years of a sample of this. And personally, I think you look back in the bubble and see the suns go eight, you know, have a chance to get in. They didn't. But the fact they had something to play for in the fact that it was, was just such an exhilarating ride. To me, that's an overall good thing for the league.

And we'll see how this final stretch of the year goes. But I'm excited to see how these seeds actually pin out rather than past years where who cares most of the time. It's like if you're a seven or an eight, like a six or a seven, like most often it doesn't matter. Now like this real benefits to getting in the top six or the seven and the eight. Like I'm a huge fan of it and I hope they keep it long term. Well, and I get to come by this honest because it was my team that went to the bubble, had the eight spot and had a real lead in that.

And then what happens to your team is you get, you lose three guys. Jaron Jackson, as we just mentioned, he tears the meniscus. And Tyos Jones, your backup point guard goes out. And Justice Winslow lands on his hip and he gets hurt in the bubble. And all of a sudden, you are just a devastated team. that can't win a game at all. And then, you know, they play Portland in that play-in game. And this can happen to any of these teams.

Like, I do think that that is something that needs to be brought up, that if your team does incur some of these injuries that can really derail your season, at least you still have a chance. And that was what was true with the Blazers. The Blazers were a better team than what would normally be in a playoff scenario. but they had been ravaged by injuries last season, but it wasn't out of it completely. They still had a chance,

and they played the Lakers in that first round of the playoffs. And so I love this. I do think it makes things much more interesting down the stretch. And the two things I would say are, A, just win. You know what I mean? Like you get into those games, win the games, okay? Like, it's you, nobody else is deciding this, but you. If you win, it doesn't matter.

So just win. The other thing is, if you want to bitch about it, make a top six seat, then you don't have to worry about it. Nobody stop it. Only two games back. That's right. That's what I'm saying. So get there. Get to the top six.

And look, I mean, you have the, this is not, somebody is not throwing this on top of you, with you having no say in the matter in terms of like this is what happens no matter what. It only happens to you if you're not in the top six. So A, get in the top six of the conference. And B, if it does happen to you, you've got to win a game. Win a game. You know what I mean? Like you're playing heads up.

And if you don't win that one, win one more. Yeah. You're playing heads up against somebody. So just win the game and you don't have to worry about it. about it. So I don't like, I don't like that a superstar is coming out crapping on it when we're about to start standings watching. And I do think that this is going to be really, really good for the NBA and creates a level of excitement for the regular season that we lost. This is the last 20 games is absolute crap. We're just counting down the days until we get to the playoffs.

And now this time, it's fun. And that's the thing. Like, think about a couple weeks ago. LeBron and AD are out. We're talking, can the Lakers avoid falling to the play? And they have. They've been average. They still have maintained an elite defense.

And like it's kind of remarkable. I feel like what the Lakers have done without those two has got a little bit under the radar. But especially the Brooklyn win. I mean, the Brooklyn win didn't go under the radar. Yeah. No, that one did not. That one definitely highlighted.

This team is, as we've been saying all year, like the finals favorite if LeBron and AD are healthy. The team is still, the team is still at least. average without them. Yeah, they are, they are a team that could beat the net. They are also a team that got bombed out by the Knicks last night.

Of course. Yeah. The bright future Knicks. Yeah. Bright future Knicks. But one, there's one other quick thing, though, on Dallas. The rest of this season, we're talking right now, they're the seven seed,

two games back from Portland. They are two and a half games up on San Antonio with a nine spot. In a normal year, I think like the way San Antonio has been the, last handful of weeks, we'd feel, Dallas would feel, I should say, pretty comfortable that they'll at least be the eight seed. They'd feel fairly comfortable. But instead, this year, there's incentive for them to win to get up to the six in a normal year. There's not. The only incentive is not to fall to nine. This year, there's so many more incentives to playing and competing, and that rewards fans who are spending, you know, now we're starting to see fans spend money

to go to games, you know, buy jerseys, the investment they make, the time that's put into watching games. And for players, it just gives more teams something to actually strive for and play for. And I think overall, the benefits will be felt over the next couple of weeks as the season heads towards its end. And right now, it's not abundantly clear, but it will be soon. The other thing is, Kev, I mean, imagine how amazing it would be to get to five. Because now you're probably in that Denver series. That looks a lot different today than it did yesterday. I mean, Denver's two and a half up on Portland right now. They could slip a little bit too.

Right. We'll see there. Yeah. So, I mean, things change rapidly. And you know that teams are going to be trying to jockey four positions matchup-wise, right? Like, I mean, that's what always happens. I'm not so sure you want that four or five, though, because the Lakers right now, in all likelihood, will be in that four or five. In all likelihood, just with whether, weather placement is on the standings.

they are three and a half back from LA, the Clippers for the three. They're currently the five. They might end up the four or the five. I don't see them falling with 80 nearing his return and LeBron shortly thereafter. So I don't know if you want that four or five. Yeah, maybe that's right. You try to get up there and then all of a sudden. Oh, no.

The six might be the spot to me, but then again, you face the Clippers. I mean, like, you can't necessarily, you can't necessarily try to get your place in the standings. We've seen teams do that in the past. you know, lose a game to get the six instead of a seven or whatever. And the other thing is, could Denver freefall? It's possible. It's not out of the question.

This past week, even prior to the Murray injury, has not gone well for them. When you just said they were minus one with him off the court. Yeah. They're a dominant team with the both of them on the court. They've been pretty average with just one of them. Yeah. Statistically. I mean, like that number, I don't want to like put too much weight onto that.

That includes early in the season when they had some struggles. They've been much better than that with just one of them on the floor, the last two, three months. But still, like, it's just, it is noteworthy. So by virtue of the top 10 getting an opportunity to play in the playoffs, you had some of these teams tried to get better at the trade deadline. One of those I got to see in person last night, which was the Chicago Bulls, who made the big surprising move, the first one of the trade deadline, which was the Vucevich move.

they were on the fifth game of a five game road trip so let me just couch this and say it was not necessarily fair to gauge them from being on the second half of a back to back fifth game of a road trip but I will say after seeing them things I don't know

that is not fitting as well as I think was envisioned when it first happened. The record since attaining Vucevich has been rather poor. And I watched last night and thought, oh boy, they may not, they may get surpassed. And then, then it's a disaster because you have now had, you know, where you were trying to, You made this big move to get there and take advantage of this amazing Zach Levine season. And now, if they are 11th, God forbid, they're 11th. Oh, my goodness.

That is, that's your nightmare scenario where you made that move to win right now and then you didn't. And I don't know. I think it's been hard to integrate it and to get it going. your guy Patrick Williams, I was super excited to get to see him in person for the first time. He got a like a dinky bucket last night. And they said that it was the first two points he had scored in the last eight quarters. And I was like, what in the world? And the other thing is they need a point card.

Like they're trying to play Sataranski there and it just doesn't. Like the Levine thing with the ball in his hands, I don't think you can reach what you want to be like that. They need a point guard to just kind of get everything in order to organize everything. And then let this guy be the fire starter, Levine. You were describing Lonzo Ball. Is that the type of point card? Yeah.

You'd like to see with Levine in the back court? Yeah, I just think he doesn't need to be the guy, you know, with the ball all the time, you know, running the show in terms of. He'll get you huge numbers. He'll get you a lot of scores. But in terms of, like, getting everybody going. And I think it, I think that's part of why I watch now and say, if it worked before, okay. But now that you've got Vucevic, I think it highlights the need that you need a guy to just get it all in order, organize it, throw post passes, you know, run pick and rolls with him, all the kind of stuff. because Levine's not a creator.

He's just not. I mean, Levine is a bucket. And ultimately, he, that's the role. So is Kobe White. Kobe White uncreate for anybody.

Yeah. I mean, it's still kind of puzzling. They took White, but that's the past regime there. So with Chicago, I still like what this team has. And I'm not going to look at just the last couple weeks when this roster

outside of Vooch, outside of Levine, outside of Thad Young. a lot of these guys aren't going to be here in the coming years. I was shocked at how crappy marketing is. Larry Markaninan so inconsistent. I don't know what happened to this guy. You know, we talk about rat teams and guys putting up huge numbers on them

and sometimes it can really mess them up. I do wonder if, you know, being on those tanking ass, losing 60 game teams and him putting up 20-something a game and having all these records and all this stuff, if that was not a bad thing for his career. I think it's possible. He might just be who he is, and that's a seven-footer who plays like he's six-foot-two.

I mean, just being honest, you know, like he's never been a rebounder, never been a great defender, never been more than like a perimeter guy. He just might be who he is. And I think there's still maybe a role for Lowry marketing in the NBA, but not a guy who is deserving of being drafted

and seventh. And with Chicago, like I said, this team is incomplete. So like I did the video in the void a couple weeks ago, Patrick Williams, I still say is the key to their future. If Patrick Williams can become the two-way star that they need, who can defend multiple positions, who can score and shoot off the dribble, and he's shown flashes of doing that, then we're talking here. If you can integrate that type of player next to Levine and Vooch, but however, it can't just be Patrick Williams. Like this whole roster, you mentioned the point guard position, Pobie White is not the perfect fit for Zach Levine. He hasn't really developed at all since his rookie year.

He's the same, if not slightly worse. Larry, we already said it's not a fit across the roster. His destiny is being like a Lou Williams. Something in that spirit. Yeah, something in that spirit. You don't want to have that paired with Zach Levine. You need more of the playmaking presence. So like I said, the Chicago team, I still like what they have.

They're just not there yet. And you would like to see them winning more games next. now after getting Vooch, after getting Daniel Tice, after doing what they did at the deadline. But fact is is that this roster is a big incomplete. And I don't think we're going to see the benefits of that Vooch trade until, you know, next season or even the year after that. And who knows what level they'll reach, this might be a team that's destined to be like a four or five seed.

But there's a chance they can be more than that because there's no saying if Levine continues to get better. People talk about the fact Vooch is 30 years old. But I would love to see Vouch in this. scenario in this situation with a even better Zach Levine, with a point guard who fits, with more talent around him, with a more seasoned

Patrick Williams, there's still something there. It's just not there yet. It's not, it's not ready yet. Yeah. The other thing is they are, you know, they're kind of, they're going to be in that middle ground either way, whether they get one of those top 10 seeds or not

with their opportunity. And you never know you get in those scenarios. Levine is the kind of guy that We just saw him go for 50 recently. So, I mean, he can do that. And certainly the kind of guy that you'd be scared of in a one-game scenario. Another team that is kind of in the middle there, and we mentioned they got that win last night against the Lakers,

but they're probably going to be seven or eight and playing their way in at the end of the year is the New York Knicks, who you highlighted this week. I'm fascinated by this because I do think, that you have changed in the years that we have done this podcast in that I look at the Knicks and say this is a team that Kevin would say, three years ago when we're doing this pod, what is the point? Why are you, you know, you're not going to win anything if it comes to the playoffs.

You'd be better off losing and getting a high draft pick. but instead you kind of highlighted why them doing what they're doing this year or being a mediocre team this year has its benefits for them. Yeah, I mean, I wrote the article in the ringer about that, but I did also say within it that losing the rest of the season could be to their benefit long term. It could be. But the Knicks are in a every situation is different, Chris. I mean, like the whole blow it up thing, like I've said to you before, the 2016-17 season when we started this, dramatically different circumstances for so many different teams across the league. The Knicks are in a situation now where the number one priority is changing perception

and changing how that team is perceived and making themselves appear to be a destination, a place that a star can go or a desire to go to and turn them into a contender. And they have done that this year with the development of Julius Randall, the development of RJ Barrett, the defensive oriented style that they have. And we'll see how that develops over the course of time. We've seen Tom Thibodeau teams get off to great starts and year one with him before, and then it fizzles. We've seen this before. So we'll see how they develop over the course of time.

But overall, I still do think for the Knicks, it would be for the best if they get higher lottery odds. I mean, if I'm a Knicks fan, I'd love that. Like you win the season in the sense that RJ is better, Randall's better, and perception has changed across the league about the Knicks. Getting a lottery odds at the end of that would be a really nice cherry on top. rather than making the postseason. But with that said, though, I mean, this team hasn't made the playoffs since 2013. And so it would be a nice accomplishment.

If you're them, you would rather get the 12th pick or the 11th pick than be in the playoffs. Not the 12th. I mean, no, that's, that's different. But that's what's most likely because they're going to won too many games.

It would be most likely. But ultimately, if they were to slide out of the playoffs, like let's say Chicago had been super hot and they were to move up. the way the standings could work out as it could be the 10th odds. Odds are that won't happen. Oh, I would much rather.

I'd much rather have playoff basketball than New York again. And I think in terms of what you're talking about, which is the number one priority, change the perception, just being in the playoffs, maybe even win a game, right? Or maybe shock the world and win a couple of games in a playoff series that you might not have much business doing.

Chris, to be clear, I'm not saying that, what I would want to happen. I'm just saying that could be for the best long term. If you get those odds and you happen to get lucky on lottery night with, if the 10th odds are 14% to move into the top four. I'm just saying that could be for the best. It doesn't mean that it is.

If you get the 10th pick, you would rather make the playoffs with the 15th pick. That goes without saying. But I'm just saying it could be for the best. What do you think if you are taking a step back? what are, what are keepers? Like, I'm talking three years from now, these guys are still going to be on my roster.

If I'm meeting with Leon Rose and I'm saying, RJ obviously, probably Randallie. Yeah. And Frank Milikina. Stop. Quickly. Yeah, quickly, of course.

Robinson. Yeah, Robinson too. And Topin. I still think you get to give him time. And Topin. Yeah, you got to give him time. So would you say of those, is there anybody else that, is a for sure if I'm if I'm remaking this roster as time goes on no single one those are the ones

I'd set aside and I'd say all right this is kind of my I mean I'm not against I'm not against trading top and if it's the right move or quickly for that matter like those are it's RJ is the guy that I want to keep above all else but even then at Julius Randall 26 years old the development that he's experienced on the defensive end of the floor with multi-positional ability the improved decision making on offense and you know he needs to sustain his shooting results but shooting 40% from three like he's addressed all those key been good at the end of games too oh my god i mean he's turned himself into one heck of a player man he really has the the obi thing is is fascinating to me because i think we would have i think it would have been a safe on the article about ovi i think it

would have been a safe bet to think that obi was going to be like best equipped to be really good immediately. Wouldn't you say that so? I mean, of the guys that came out. Not really. No, because the defense was, the defense was poor at Dayton. And if you don't defend,

it's hard for you to get minutes. But he's an older guy who kind of plug and play. Age is just a number, though. You know, like he was a guy who, you know, as detailed in the article, he didn't have any division one offers after high school.

He spent a year going elsewhere before we got D1 offers, went to Dayton. He's academic and ineligible as a freshman, so he red shirts, plays two years. So he's 23 years old as a rookie in the NBA, a guy who still has no hit mobility, needs to improve, admitted he needs to improve defensively before the draft, before we got, when actually arrived in New York. And we're seeing that over the course of the year. Like, you hope behind the scenes that's happening, but even on the court with the limited minutes he's receiving, he's not doing what he's best at. We are not seeing Obie Toppin, rim running. We are not seeing Obie Topping. and sent in screens rolling to the rim, catching lob dunks, which he's perfectly capable of doing. Instead, he's being a spot-up shooter. And that's not a knock on Tibbs.

It's not a knock on the Knicks. It's just the way his role is this year based off their roster construction. And I think over the course of time... That's not what's best for him. And maybe long-term, this investment into the things that he's not good at could be for the best long-term.

Like, we'll see. Again, it's like I said with the draft pick. You don't know what's best. I just think the chance what those draft odds could be for the best long term. With Obie, we might look back now

and be like, geez, he just was never a fit with the Knicks. They should have went in a different direction. They should have drafted Hallibur and they should have drafted so-and-so, whoever it might be. But with Obie,

I wonder how this roster develops over the course of time if we will see more of that. And you would like to see him being able to do what he is best at. This happens with a lot of guys. I mean, look, you can go back and look,

go back and look at how Oklahoma City was using DeMontasabonis. I mean, he was just standing out at the three point line, taking threes. Exactly. Like, he clearly was not doing what he is best at doing. So when he brings to the table. Deer in the headlights at the time. As a rookie,

he looked like he was lost. And never went to the free throw line, ever. Like, never went to the free throw line. He's just standing out like he's frigging Ryan Anderson, standing out to three point. Andy, and, by the way, he couldn't make him. He's shooting like, you know,

29% or something. So bonus is a great example to bring up, Chris. That's a really good one. Yeah. I mean, as a guy that, like, let's see what he's best at before we decide whether or not,

because he's clearly that nobody was drafting Obey to stand out at the three point line or to be a pick and pop guy. He was a rim runner, right? He's an explosive Amari Stadamairis player. I mean, with Obi, though, like part of the benefit was he shot 39% from three at Dayton during his red shot sophomore season.

It was only on 82 shots though. So it was a small sample. So you do hope long term that that area of his game does develop and he becomes better than a sub 30% three point shooter. So we'll see how he develops over the course of time. But I do think like even though he's 23 years old, he is not necessarily more developed than a guy who's 19. And with him, it's a very unique situation because considering his background to lead to this point, But he deserves time because of situation and because of just his own developmental trajectory. Yeah, and it started off hard.

I mean, the beginning of the season to start the season not being in the rotation and then try to make your way into a rotation of a team. Because he had the injury. Game one, he had the calf injury. Yeah, and the team was pretty damn good. You know, right? So it's hard to break into a lineup as a rookie, you know, that can really set you back. Late Bloomer in high school, late bloomer in college,

could be a late bloomer in the NBA. We'll see how this trend continues. Real quick, before we get out of here, there's a TNT game. The late night game tonight is going to be the Blazers and the Celtics. And the reason I'm mentioning this is because Tatum has been on one hell of a run, was just named Easter Conference Player of the Week. Paul George was Western Conference Player of the Week. We take full credit for that here at the mismatch. And Perkins gets credit for Tatum, right?

Yeah, right. The Tatum thing is a little bit fascinating because you remember, I remember last year we were talking, I mean, it's a year ago, and you could probably find us talking about how, like, yo, right before they went to the bubble, Jason Tatum post-January, and you wrote an article about it, too. You know, he grew out that beard and he just became a superstar. Like, he really did. Like, before our eyes to wear, there was that, I remember vividly, there was that Sunday ABC game and the frigging Lakers are double team in him at like half court. to get the ball out of his hands. Like he was being treated as a superstar.

And this has not been a superstar season for Tatum. And yet recently, he has been that dude again. And it's interesting to me because we kind of went through this last year where the last part of the season, he turned into a different player than he had been prior to that. What do you make of it? I mean, he's shooting the hell out of it. He's scoring more efficiently across play types, ISO's pick and rolls.

He's doing what he did, like you mentioned, that towards the end of last year before the hiatus, when he was just ridiculous off the floor, no matter what types of shots he was taking, leaning floaters, pull-up three, step-back threes, all of it. And with Jason Tatum, this is why with Boston, I have a hard time just saying they have a zero percent chance despite their struggles. This has been a weird season. overall for every team it's been a weird year

Tatum himself had COVID at one point during the year we don't know he said at certain points it affected his energy felt lethargic maybe he's completely over that now maybe he is and the way he's producing right now ever since the deadline

29 points per game eight rebounds four assists 39% from three just ludicrous numbers and with the Celtics it feels like there's small sample here but it feels like they're starting to figure out who they are. And that's

without Evan Fornier, because now he's in protocols. So if they get Fornier back with his dynamic scoring ability, I can't rule out the Celtics making a run. I just can't because of the level of talent with Tatum and Brown and everybody they have. Yes, those, that

tandem, but most importantly, how many times do we talk about, can't, do you have a guy that could be, and this is why we've talked about the heat still being dangerous, do you have a guy that you look up and he was the best player in the series. And he,

we know his ceiling is that. That you could look up in any playoff series. And you could say he was the best guy in that series. Over the course of that series, he just averaged 28 points, eight rebounds, six assists, shooting high percentages and hitting game winners.

Like he's got that talent. We know that. It's just that has not been harnessed until recently. you know, this season, much like last season, which, hell, if you're going to do the timing thing, it's better to be awesome at the end than awesome at the beginning and then taper off. Yeah, man.

And you got Jalen Brown still producing at a high level. Robert Williams coming in, adding the element that he has with his room protection, versatility, with the playmaking ability from the permanent. Like some of the passes time Lord makes is, it's ridiculous. It's actually kind of funny.

Like, if you pull up all video of Robert Williams' assist, just watch all his assist. So much of it is just, quick, rapid decisions. Like he grabs a remout, immediately kicks it out to a shooter, grabs the ball at the high post around the elbow area, immediately surveys the floor and finds a cutter. His decisions are quick, immediate.

He's decisive with what he does on the floor. And that has added a little bit of like the Horford-esque style that Boston has been missing recently, which they didn't have with Daniel's size, which they haven't had with Ennis Canter last year. So Time Lord, like that difference is felt on the court with watching them. And like I said, whenever 48 comes back, I look forward to seeing how he's integrated because what Brad Stevens was doing in the limited sample we saw was a guy who ran pick and roll, a guy who came off of screens and handoffs who did some secondary creation. He added an element that Boston hasn't had in quite some time.

So like you said, Chris, Tatum is a guy who can be the best player in a series. And anytime you have a guy like that, you got a chance. So this Celtics team, we'll see how to develop. Maybe Tyte's was the problem, Keff. Maybe they just need to get rid of Daniel Tyce. Not a starter. One of the best backup centers in the league, but not a starter. And Boston, the pieces feel more aligned.

Maybe we misunderstood what everybody was telling us. It wasn't Tristan. It was Tyce. What it really was was the need for more time lord, which any self-ex fan watching this season is like, when are we going to get more time, Lord? All year long, my friends who are Celtics fans have been wanting more time lord. Brad Stevens himself has said during. press conferences, Robert Williams

were managing him now. And we'd like to see that role increase towards the end of the year. Well, it has. Well, the other thing is, you know, look, there was a lot of situations where down the stretch or even in game winning situations, Bradson Stevens would run plays for Daniel Tice. The one

good thing is now that won't happen with Time Lord, right? If you put Time Lord, he's not going to run it for Time Lord, right? Yeah, it comes within the flow. And by the way, Danny just said, never again. Never are you going to run a point for Daniel Tice with the game on the line. Yeah, after Tice missed

that three against the bucks. Yeah, but also one of the quick thought on the Celtics, Romeo Langford, looking pretty good defensively. I really like what I've seen from Langford on the defensive end of the floor. What year is this? Is this three? This is his second season. Oh, it's second year. Yeah, he was drafted

in 2019 with the 14th. Jeez, how many games is he even played in as an NBA player? 37. That's crazy. I feel like I just never see him. 37 teams high, doesn't it? He doesn't seem like he's played 37 games all the time he's missed. It doesn't feel like he's played 37 games.

It also feels like he's been around longer than being his second year. Yeah. Right? Just because it's been a topic, you know, with him not being available for the Celtics. And they can use everybody. So you think he's pretty good, huh? Like he's been defensively. Offense still needs to come along, but he looks reliable defensively.

And that's something you can't say for a lot of young players. Yep. Last thing, the draft, the draft guide. Now that we have had this like downtime, does anything start ramping up for you in terms of updating that until, oh, it does? I think April 30th, we're supposed to do our next update. I'm pretty sure that's the date or maybe early May. I don't know. But we'll do an update then.

You think it'll change a lot? Yeah, I mean, I'm going to change rankings. There's only 15 guys in there right now. But I mean, we'll fill it out over the course of the coming weeks and months. It'll be fascinating to see if the top five changes, because it does feel like you've got Suggs, Mowbly, Cunningham, and then the two G-League guys coming in and Green. In most, I wonder if that's commonplace. If I walked in and saw the whiteboard in teams draft rooms, if those five guys are relatively unanimous. or if there's somebody, because last year we did this exercise, and then we get to draft night,

and freaking Patrick Williams goes four, and we're like, what in the world? Like, we certainly weren't talking Patrick Williams as a top five guy, right, prior, at this point before the draft, right? All right, Kevin. Drink a lot of liquid. Trust me. I'm thirsty and tired. Get you a good nap. Get you a good nap.

You made it through the vaccine episode. I'm leaning on you now, Chris, just leaning on you at the end. Somebody send us that Photoshop. Thanks to producer Sasha as always. And Kevin, I'll talk to you on Friday. I hope you have a great rest of your day, everybody.