The Mismatch - KOC's Killian Hayes-gasm. Plus: Dallas Struggles, Star Performers, and the Royal Celtics.

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

Verno gives KOC the floor to start the show because Killian Hayes had himself a breakout game last night against the Mavs (02:24). After giving Hayes his flowers, the guys discuss the Mavs' struggles and debate what moves, if any, they can make to give Luka Doncic some help. In looking at the Celtics, they agree that Jayson Tatum is special this year and give credit to the team for not allowing the offseason drama to carry onto the court (13:52). The guys also discuss the vast improvement of Devin Booker, as well as Anthony Davis’s revival into a dominant player (28:04). While discussing the next possible moves for the Lakers, the guys debate if it's time for the Bulls to blow it up (42:35). Lastly, they discuss the prime position the Pelicans are in and debate if KAT is really the issue with the T-Wolves (46:19). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Connor. Wait a minute, you're not Chris Vernon. No, Kevin, sadly, I'm not as cherubic or as raspy as Verno, but it is I, Jay Kyle, man. And folks, basketball has been and continues to be so very good. That's exactly why Kyle and I are hosting a brand new basketball show on a brand new podcast feed, the ringers NBA draft show. We're going to have you covered every week as we go in-depth and deep dive in hopes of answering an ever-important question in the NBA. Who's got next?

Whether it's an international phenom like Victor Wynbenyama or the G-League Scoot Henderson. Or stars from Overtime Elite like A.M. Thompson, as well as a full-blown swarm of talented prospects from the promising 2023 NBA draft class. For sure, Kyle. And we're also going to get into players from the college ranks because this is a loaded class. for us to discuss prospects rising and falling, and we're going to revisit and redraft recent draft classes and get into how the league's evolution

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Welcome to the Missman. match. I'm Chris Vernon and join me as he does every Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor a.k, Kevin O'Pomber, Kevin O'Candellon, Kevin O'Clytherian, Kevin O'Killian, Kevin O'Brien, Burdow! It's a good day. It's a great day. As long as your name's not Chris Paul, one of the great leaders.

It's a great day. It's a great day for you because this was the moment. The moment you have been waiting for, the Killian Hayes breakout, and it just so happened that the world was able to watch this take place as it was the only game that was on. Of all the games that the Killian Hayes game could happen in, it happens by itself on a Thursday night where the Detroit Pistons in NBA history. The Detroit Pistons are playing against the Dallas Mavericks and Killian Hayes out duels. The great Luca Donchip in overtime and helps Detroit get the win. I will allow you your grand celebration. Well, I feel amazing, Chris.

I mean, the last couple of weeks have been. Really encouraging. You know, it lasts 13 games since November 9th, averaging 12 points, six assists, only two turnovers, nearly 40% from three, over 40% from mid-range. Killians look better, right? You know, we've talked about it for a long time. Oh, he's got the defense. He's got the playmaking.

He's got the feel. Can he figure out how to score? I mean, when he had the pull-up deep two early in overtime, I was excited. then he had the pull-up three from the right wing the sidestep three I lost it I was so excited cheering it was a celebration last night

Chris so I mean I'm happy I'm happy for Pistons fans because because the beginning of this season for him was just like it was the worst he's probably ever played the beginning of this season he was absolutely horrific so the fact this past

you know three four weeks or so he's looked like a long-time NBA player. You know, I'll tell you what, man, hopefully he keeps it going. Because if this is all he does, 12 points per game, 6 assists per game for the rest of his career, so be it. He'll be in the NBA

because he's already got the ability to throw accurate lobs out of the pick and roll. He can put the ball in the shot pocket of spot-op shooters. He can make that cross-court swing pass at the corner three-point shooter. He can defend. You know, Pistons fans know that watching games. If all he can do is score, like an above average level, he'll be in the league for a long time.

But you hope, you know, in his young 20s right now, it only gets better from here. But it's been a very encouraging stretch. And last night was the best of his entire career. So, you know, good for Killian. And congrats, Pistons fans on getting to experience that. That was cool. And clearly accentuated by my beloved Marvin Bagley. Oh, for sure.

Bagley, you know, this is just an enhancer on the court. You know, helps elevate his guards. Hey, look, if it wasn't Killing and it was going to be Bagley that did the Dallas Mavericks in. And so, look, it was hilarious that both of our guys are the ones that are, who have been much maligned, are the ones that in tandem take down the Dallas Fabrics. On the flip side of that, like, this Dallas Fabrics thing is wild, Kevin. I saw this morning that they have lost, you know, it's one thing, people can just like look at their records and see that they are a 500 slash sub 500 team. But when you take a dive into like who those losses are,

it's the Nuggets without Yokic and Jamal Murray. It's the Pelicans without Zion and Ingram. It's the Wizards without Porzingis. and Beal. It's the Raptors without Siakum. It's the magic without Paulo. It's Detroit without Cade. It's like they got all these losses.

They got six of their losses. And they've played teams. They got smoked by the Celtics, blew a big lead against the suns on opening night. Like it's guys missing. It's blown leads. It's getting blown out. All of them.

Those six I just mentioned, that's six teams that were without their best. player and three of them without their two best players. I mean, what in the heck is going on? All the while, you've got Luca, who's averaging almost 34 points a game, nine rebounds, nine assists. I mean, the numbers are 8.7 and 8.7. You know, these are like Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Russell Westbrook.

Those are the only guys that have ever had 38 and 8 in a season. So we're about to the quartermark of the season. And so you have this historic Donchit season that is going on right now, and yet it is not adding up to victories, which that is what is so puzzling about the whole thing. It's hard to have somebody being that awesome, and it not add up to wins. I think, you know, Mavericks fans,

they hear from national media like Luca needs to trust his teammates, more. He needs to, you know, put the ball in their hands more, do all that. But I think that's a little unfair to Luca in the sense that, like, he, for this team to even have a shot, he needs to have the ball in his hands. Like, their offense stinks when he's not on it.

It stinks when it's not in his hands. Because you look around the NBA, three best teams in each conference, Celtics, bucks, calves, sons, nuggets, Pelicans, all of those teams play differently, but all of them have different guys who can handle the ball. They can simply dribble the basketball, make passes.

Like the Celtics can roll out lineups with five guys out there, from guards to bigs that can all handle pass and shoot. The Nuggets surround Yokic with a bunch of guys who high IQ cut, you know, spot up, could make, you know, good passes off the bounce attacking our closeout. The Mavericks, like they have guys like Phidney Smith, Kleba, Powell, who can't dribble. They have guys like Hardaway and Bertons who don't pass the ball. And I thought the play last night it really stood out to me

that kind of emphasized this was the point when Luca got pissed off. He lost it. He gets blitzed in the pick and roll. Hits Klebe on the short roll who botched a pass to Hardaway cutting into the basket and Luca turned around looks all fed up, screams. And that just summed it up for me.

Like he gets blitz, the ball gets taken out of his hands and his teammates can't be trusted to make plays off the dribble. So I think right now you look at this Mavericks roster, you know, granted, those defensive issues too, but offensively, they just don't have enough guys on that team that can make a defense pay like the best teams in basketball do across the roster. Or some of these teams that we've seen be so dependent upon one guy, right?

They have to be, right? But even when we saw the Westbrook teams, you know, he's got all the Depot with them. He's got some guys that can knock down shots and can make some plays. When we had the Hardin season, you got Eric Gould. You got Daniel House. You got other guys that you can go out to. He's got Dinwiddie. He's got Dinwiddie.

He's got Christian Wood. Maybe they'll give Jayden Hardy a chance like we talked about last week or Tuesday. The guys over at Mavs Moneyball, Kirk Henderson, wrote a article a couple of weeks ago that I read about chronicling what all the missteps of building around Luca, whether it be through draft, through free agency, through trades. And it's rather unbelievable how they got to this supporting cast. And I think that, you know, the criticism of Luca and the way they play, you know, if you want to say that he should, that it's not going to be successful when so much is dependent on one guy. I can buy that. On the flip side, this is nuanced because on the flip side, his supporting cast isn't good enough.

It's just not. Anybody that watch them play that game that he sat out, oh my God. You're just sitting there watching it. And we can talk up Spencer Dinwiddie all we want. Nobody cares about Spencer Dinwiddie. You know? He's a solid player. Yeah, solid, right?

But, I mean, that can't be your, that can't be the guy that we're talking about, you know. and the Christian Wood thing is fine, but clearly doesn't have the full trust of the coach. Which is another issue, the coach. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know if this is just the first 20 games and then they'll get it going. But I mean, this is a team that was in the West Finals last year.

With a lot of these same guys that we did not think much of, it's just that this year it has been much worse for sure. So what do you do if you're them? I think that article you're referring to by Kirk Henderson was there's no help on the way for the Mavericks. Is that the one, right? Yes. That was a great article. I read that too.

I mean, like, what do you do? What do you do? You don't have a ton of trade assets? It feels like you have some salaries that are negative salaries that a team would want picks attached to to take on. What do you do if you're Dallas right now? It's a really tough spot to be in. I mean, the fact they made it to West Finals, granted they lose them five.

You know, they beat the jazz. You know, we know their issues they've had. That team blew up. Mitchell Gobert, right? They beat the Sons where they fell off, had their COVID thing. And then they got smoked by the Warriors. I mean, they were kind of fortunate. They had a good matchup against Utah.

Phoenix fell apart. It's not to diminish them getting to the West Finals, but they made the West Finals, but it's not like I feel like they were right on the cusp of being an NBA finals. team. It felt like a young team that went further than expected largely in part to Luca being otherworldly.

So what do you do? Well, and that's part of the problem is that they're not very young. You know, I mean, they're young in terms of their playoff experience up to that point. And yet, you know, you're to the point early in the season where you're trying to bring in Kimball Walker, where you're trying to be real. You know, I resented the hell out of them calling up Jaden Hardy because he was going to be down the street for me. I was going to be able to maybe go see him play.

Not cool. You know, but I mean, it's like, hey, let's hope that Jaden Hardy can add something to the mix. You look up and down it's not a lot of tradable assets. No. Like, I mean, Hardaway and Bertons both have three years left of their deal, including this year. Finney Smith has like four years. I think it's a player option in the last year. It's like they don't have expiring deals.

Like Dwight Powell, Christian Wood, and Dinwiddie's non-guaranteed next year. So those are your salaries. But then you look at their assets and it's like, okay, okay. I'm not sure what the actual move is here for Dallas to make. Yeah, I'm not sure either. They're in a tough spot. They're in a tough spot.

For sure. seen another huge moment since we last spoke. They are scoring, they've scored over 130 points over the course of the last, what is it, three games, they've scored 134, 140, and 130. It's the first time anyone scored 130 or more in three straight games since 1968. Wow. And we talked about, we talked about. We talked about their offensive rating on our last episode.

And then also adding to the history, you've got Tatum with the 49 and 11 rebounds, eight of 12 from three in his last game. And it's a second time in his career where he's had 45 or more points, 10 or more rebounds, and eight or more three-pointers. No one else has ever done that. in the history of the NBA and he's done it twice. You got to have 45 or more

so I don't think that's like some crazy statistic. You got to 45 or more points, 10 or more rebows, and hit 8 threes. And he's done it now twice and he obviously did it most recently just a few days ago. It feels like they, the bucks,

probably the calves, I think I would put in the mix with them, I feel like those in the mix, but not the same level. Yeah, but I feel like those three have kind of separated themselves to me. Like I think the Cavs, again, do I think they're better than those two teams? No, but do I think they could play an unbelievable series against those teams? I mean, we saw early in the season, those Celtics Cavs games, both overtime games, were unbelievable. And I do think with the size that they have, the cabs, that they could pose some problems for Milwaukee.

But Milwaukee's just about to get Chris Middleton back. And it does seem like Boston has separated themselves and Milwaukee has separated themselves and look no further than those two guys. Because ever since the latter incident, if you go back to that in that Phillil game, the Yonis statistics are absurd. Like, absolutely absurd. And the whole season for Tatum has been absurd. So you kind of have these two guys that are spectacular, night in, night out, and these teams that seemingly are head and shoulders above.

We haven't seen Philly. I'm actually going to see Philly tonight, but I'm going to see a depleted Philly. Philly, who just got ran out by the other night. Shake Milton's been good. He has, but I mean, they got beat by 1,000 the other night by Cleveland. They're not themselves yet, for sure.

And they got to get their guys back and help is on the way with Hardin coming back soon. It's going to be a little longer for Maxie. But. Philly's got a chance to put themselves in that lump with Boston, Milwaukee, and Cleveland. Yes. For sure.

But it's kind of... Does Brooklyn have a shot? No. Okay. No. Because they don't have the size. Yeah, I agree. The lack of size there is what would really kill them.

Even if Durant, Kyrie, and Ben Simmons are all playing at a high level in the postseason, the lack of, they don't have the beef. Somebody's going to score 95 points in the paint on them. Yeah. One of those teams. I agree with you. You know? And so unless they were to get somebody, you know, they could really man the pain. If they were to swing some kind of a deal where they can get a rim protector rebounder,

that can deal with the type of guys that you're going to have to go up against in the Eastern Conference. Because you've even got like Tatum now. Not only is he knocking down the threes. I mean, this guy's gotten bigger and stronger and is finishing through contact and drive into the basket.

And that's, and we're not even mentioning Janice and Embed and Mbilley and Allen and what they've got. I mean, Brooklyn's too little. You mentioned like Tatum, isn't it crazy how much better he is driving to the basket now? I mean he's talked this season about how his body's developed

getting stronger and like I was watching some old video of him the season like you watch him in the past he'd lower his shoulder he'd be getting bumped off and now he's the dude kind of plowing through defenders you know he's a better passer now

better driver taking fewer mid deep midrange jump shots career low only 10% of those this season career high from the free throw line career high amount of shots from behind the arc. He's just him and he's put it all together physically and his choices on the quarter

are helping make him, you know, the best version of himself that he's ever been. Yeah, and I saw this, I saw this Instagram post. It was, I think it was basketball playbook or it was something like that. Forgive me, it was one of those. Like, now on Instagram, there ain't nothing I follow that shows up on my feed.

I know you could click a little button, But I'm saying- Why don't they make on Instagram you have to go to the top left, you click Instagram and you click following. I know.

But why can't you make that your default? Like on Twitter, you can make it chronological as your defaults. Why can't I do that on Instagram? Why don't I have to click twice to do it? Right.

It's not a big pain in the ass to do, but it's still a pain in the ass. So I forget to do it. Now, in fairness, their algorithms pretty good because I do find myself interested in things that I don't follow. But there was like a basketball playbook one,

And it was like, they have like a graph and they show the play with like numbers and like dots. And then they're showing the video like on top of it. And there was this post and it was like it said something like, this is disrespectful. The Celtics ran the same play three times in a row or something like that. And I'm like, it's not really disrespectful because it works. This is disrespectful, all capital letters. Yeah, right. The disrespect.

But it was basically, you know, two screens at the top, Tatum comes around them. And there were three different outcomes to the way he played that. One was a kick out to the corner where they buried a three. One, he drove on it. It's like, this guy is, you put the ball in his hands, you set some screens for him. And he, he is now gotten to where he is really playmaking and can kill you every different way. You know, if he's drawing the extra defender, he'll kick out and they get a wide open three off that thing. And if they don't, he can power straight to the basket and he can finish through contact. And then if you lay off him, he just shoots threes. He's special this year, man, special. I saw him in person earlier this

year and I was like, whoa. He looks bigger. He looks stronger. And he just looked. I said this on an episode, like he looked like a real superstar for the first time to meet. He was like, this isn't just like an all-star, awesome player. I know what you mean. This looked like I'm the best player on the floor by a wide margin. You could take somebody that's never watched basketball, take him to the gym and say, who's the best player? And they would say, that guy, number zero.

Give me him. because he was just unbelievable. I mean, Tatum's been around forever, it feels like. Yeah, no. And he's been around in playoff runs, Eastern Conference Finals, obviously makes the finals last year. And it's always been ahead of schedule, right? And now I agree with you, Chris.

Like, there's been glimmers, there's been moments. There's been stretches where you're like, oh, my God, Tatum looks like a megastar. Yes. But this is really the first season. Like, he said it a couple of weeks ago. He says he feels like he's starting this season the way he ended last regular season. I mean, it's carried over.

The interesting thing the monitor with him will be he tends to always finish his seasons better than he starts. I wonder if that could follow the same trajectory. Like could he get even better, right? Like, is there even more Tatum could do with, you know, even higher usage? I mean, that's, you know, for playoff time maybe. But that's what they could eat at some point. Because like you said, he can playmate, man. he can distribute the ball if needed.

If he needs to have the ball on his hands, even more. In a different offense, he could average seven, eight assists, right? But with Boston, they have so many playmakers, so many guys, Marcus Smart, who, Hal Horford, you know, on the post, whatever it might be, they have different guys who can distribute. So you don't need that from Tatum. But he's at that level where he could provide it if needed. And also, by the way, we haven't even mentioned he's awesome on defense too.

We also need to mention that though they went through minor or major catastrophe right before the season's about to start, this Joe Mazzul has done a very, very good job. He's put them, I mean, look at what their offense is doing. They're doing this. They're down Robert Williams, who was a very important piece for them last year. and when you've got your best player being that good and you're putting those guys in those kind of positions and the offensive numbers are as freaky as they are

and the record is as good as it is, you know, that could have really, really, really gone sideways for that franchise losing their leader in Imeo doca, especially given the circumstances of which. The players really like him too. Yeah, and they had a guy that's just able to move over, and they're even better. And so you got to get this guy credit. That's not an easy.

Look, you can say it's a great job to walk into for sure, and he had experience with those players. He's still got to coach him. You're going to have Brad Stevens credit for that decision, too, for the field to say, okay, even though he doesn't have this experience, he's our guy here, because there's the rumors about them going outside the organization. finding a guy who has experience, a vulgar, whatever it might be. It was interesting when the jazz interviewed Missoula for the job. I was like, huh, Joe Missoula.

They interviewed him. And it turns out like Boston ends up hiring as a coach. I mean, there's a... But in fairness, in fairness, that one, Danny had a prior relationship and knew that guy. But that's what I mean. like Danny Age knew, right? They knew the potential of this guy, and that's why they wanted to interview him and Will Hardy.

They would have loved to brought both into Utah. Yeah. Boston was smart to retain him. Mazula told this, you know, or maybe his Tatum told a story the other day about how Missoula shows a picture of a sandcastle at every single film session or a practice they have. And he says, because, you know,

you could build the greatest sandcastle ever. But, you know, every day, you know, the tide comes in, it washes away. And the message is like, you need to build a new sandcastle every day. And Tatea said how it's cheesy, but the team really buys them to it.

I thought it was kind of a cool message. And it's the truth, right? Every day's a new one for this team. And it does seem like the way they play. When we see championships, you know, teams, you know, or teams that make the finals end up sliding, it feels like the Celtics team, the effort in which they play with,

the focus they have on the court, executing the game plan, it does seem like they're building that new San chaos each day. Sustaining it, keeping it up through April and then May and then, you know, they hope June.

That's a whole different thing. But it feels like they have jumped at these hurdles already that a lot of teams that go deep in the playoffs often don't. And that's really a testament to the coaching and them rallying around each other considering their controversy.

Well, and you talk about these teams over the years where they can have either a conference finals run or an NBA run. And it can really go one of two ways. Disease of more. Yeah. And it can go one of two ways on the next season,

which is, does this make me burn a flame that is brighter than ever before? And now I'm out to prove something. We kind of thought that at the beginning of the season when you saw when the bills came out the gate. And we were like, oh boy. Now that's a team that got their heart ripped out. They went and added some guys.

now they're ready to kill people. And I think that edge came with Boston. Likewise, I mean, look, we just talked about, you know, there's a lot of focus on how sorry the, the supportive cast is for Luca. It's not a radically different roster. And yet they're lamer than hell. And they just made to the Western Conference finals. We had it happen a couple of years ago where it was Miami, you know,

did not come out the gates. They didn't look like they were a team that had fallen short and then it didn't look like necessarily that they're ready to go out and kill or be killed. You know, we, it can go one or two ways. I do think they're still a young team. So I think that helps. But, I mean, you just taken into consideration because we're about to talk about the Sons, that Sons team is the one that got their hearts ripped out and absolutely

humiliated by the Dallas Mavericks. And you look at the plight of those two teams right now. And not unlike what we were just talking about with Tatum, I think Booker's moving into, how do I say this? People have always known Devin Booker is an outstanding player. Not always. People used to call him a good stats, bad team player. That's fair. That's fair. Which was unfair at the time for them to say that.

Let's say recently. When people think of Devin Booker, they think All-Star, All-Star, one of the great players in the league. It's clear as day now, yes. But now it's like when you're able to be that guy, and I do think, as I said, last year, I thought Booker's case when people would like bring them up for MVP or whatever was always going to be a hurt by the Paul thing because since Chris is, despite the news recently, but since his arrival, that lined up, that lined up with him getting that team and that franchise, getting respectable to becoming a great team. And so when you're kind of splitting credit. And now, especially in the

absence of Chris, and you've seen Booker and the other night he has this 51 and he doesn't even play in the fourth quarter. Unbelievable. I think you're seeing, we're now moving into, okay, this is a lot more about Booker than it is about just Chris coming over there or Manti coming over there and everything changing because he feels like he has gone up another level also. Should we just replay the conversation from last week? You know, or it's like, you know,

why are the suns good without Chris Paul, Jay Crowder, Camp Johnson? Because of David Booker, it's the truth, right? I mean, I think we saw that with that 51 point game, man. Like he, on 20 of 25, any was playmaking too? Unbelievable. The 20 field goals is just crazy.

Unbelievable. I mean, he got whatever he wanted on the court. It looked like a guy doing a Kobe impression out there with some of the mid-range turnaround. pull-ups that he was hitting. It's just a masterful performance. I mean, I know people like to make fun of his, you know, 70-point game that he had against the Celtics years ago.

But, like, Booker's been a bucket for a long time, man. He's just even better and more refined than he was, you know, prior to these good sons teams. I mean, he's a better playmaker now. He's also a better defender. He's a better three-point shooter off the dribble. There's never been any complacency with him as a player. he's constantly gotten better.

And I mean, it's amazing to see. It really is amazing. The Sons are this good without Chris Ball. It is amazing. And Cam! And Cam! And Crowder, who is supposed to be on their team. Yeah, I mean, until he had the, it's like we talked about it with the Celtics,

they've bought into each other. Crowder was the opposite. He didn't want to be part of this team, which is unfortunate for Phoenix, but an unfortunate for him probably too. But Devin Bookerman, I mean, what an absolute test. talent, man. I agree with you, Chris. The MVP argument for him in recent years, I thought was weak because

of the presence of Chris Paul. I mean, all NBA, all star, yeah, sure, no brainer. But MVP's a different level. So I think this year, there's a lot of MVP candidates, though, dude. Like, it's Tatum, it's Yannis. If the Mavericks get good, Luca will be in that. There's so many

guys this year that it's going to be tough for Booker as well. But, I mean, he belongs in that for sure in my opinion. Well, meanwhile, we have a couple of guys. There's a bunch of these guys that are putting up crazy stats on these, you know, very mediocre teams, i.e. Curry, which they've been mediocre so far. And he'd be in that too.

Durant's numbers are freaky. Yep, Katie as well. Especially, especially recently. And then to go along with Luca, you've got a bunch of these guys that are having these amazing offensive seasons. And yet, by all I just have to throw up. not the name Yokich too. I highly doubt voters will give it to him a third year in a row.

But his team's good. Yeah. But his team's good. Yeah. I mean, he's having another spectacular year. Yeah. I mean, the difference with him and those other guys is his team is actually good. Right? And they have played well. A lot of these guys are putting up these crazy stats, but it's

not adding up to victories. One guy whose crazy stats are recently adding up to victories is Anthony Davis looks like old pelicans Davis recently over his last eight games

30 points a game 16 rebounds a game four and a half steals and blocks stocks if you will and he's shooting 60% from the field that's the last eight games and they've won six of eight

this Davis revival has been kind of wild to witness because it's like he just morphed back in to that guy that was routinely considered one of the best five to ten players on planet earth when he was uninjured, which has always been an issue for him. But just recently, over the course of the last two weeks, what do we make of this, Kev? I mean, I know you had posted like, hey, here's the Lakers and here's their upcoming schedule.

I don't think that we necessarily or anybody would have calculated that, like with this Anthony Davis, this Lakers team is much more formidable than the Anthony Davis that we had kind of gotten used to for the last year and a half because this one is the best player on that team recently. It's going to be interesting to see how this develops in the coming weeks for him because LeBron's back. They seem to be still playing through 80 far more than they were early in the season. And maybe he's past that back issue that was bothering him when he was, you know, lumbering up the court, holding his back needed to be pulled sometimes. He looks totally healthy. I wouldn't think he's hurting at all right now. But, yeah, I mean, AD looks absolutely sensational right now.

He's crushing from mid-range. Jumpers falling from mid-range. He's getting to the rim with ease. They're playing through him more often. And he's absolute dominant force. And defensively, all year long, he's looked more like his prime self. he is a defensive player of the year candidate. Lakers as a whole need to get better defensively,

but 80 individually has been fantastic. So the overarching thing here for the Lakers is LeBron can still be the best player on any given night, right? Like he can. Maybe he's not every night. He's not the best player in the world anymore, but he still can't be on any given night. You have 80 playing sensational basketball.

I feel like those two guys are getting near a point where the Lakers have to think, okay, is there anything we can do to make the most of this year? Ed's playing like this. LeBron can still play at a high level. Can we really, like, not do anything? Are we just going to let this year pass by with these guys playing like this? So there was an article in the athletic by Jovan Bua that said the Lakers are operating under a new timeline,

that the Lakers are awaiting the December 15th deadline, which is the date that most players who signed free agent contracts, last offseason can be traded. And then when that day comes, so this is something to look forward to, it's two weeks away, the Lakers are reportedly weighing three different possible trade scenarios. Scenario one is the obvious. Russell Westbrook plus one or both of their tradable first round picks, which are the 27 to 29 years, for a star or a package of multiple role players.

Option two, some combination of Pat Bev, Kendrick Nunn, and picks for role players who better fill their immediate needs of shooting and size. Option three, two separate trades. One that would involve Beverly, none, and a first round pick. The other that would involve Westbrook and another pick. And he says, as up right now, the Lakers are leading towards options two or three. So, but they've got this six-game road trip that's going to play a part in determining how much they're willing to give up for the sake of immediate improvement.

And those six games are the bucks, the calves, the raptors, the wizards, the pistons, and the 76ers. And so I guess we're going to see what they do in those six, but the idea is that that that could go a long way towards determining what the Lakers do. And interesting that those names are being thrown out already, right? Like, we just got to wait until Patrick P. Like all the guys into the league are available, but Pat Bebb would be better suited being on a younger team. You know, these guys don't listen to him anyway. And he just had that ridiculous Aiton play,

which was an embarrassment to say the least. And then Kedric Nunn, like, if anybody can remember his best Lakers moment, then more power to you. But, I mean, I can't think of one thing. the Kendrick Nodes done with the Lakers that I've even had an awareness of, truly. So I guess he collects dust on the bench.

But maybe he can go play somewhere. But what do you think? It just seems like I thought it was fascinating to say, like we've spent so much time talking about Westbrook and the Picks that these scenarios were a little more interesting. I don't know what you could get for Pat Bev left the issue Kendrick none

but I mean honestly I mean you're really if you're moving off of Westbrook gets to somebody that just wants that money coming off

100% their books and it's still a lot of money to take on even if you do want it coming off the book this is the tough part

Chris right like there's what you want to do and there's what you can do yeah so I think for the Lakers here there's still in a place where it's a waiting game like who is going to

become available who becomes worth giving us potentially both those picks and a single deal. Who becomes available where you want to split them up? Trade one pick with salary, whether it's Beverly and none or whether it's Westbrook. And there are multiple avenues that become available?

Because we just don't know yet. We don't know yet. We don't know if the bulls are going to decide to pull the plug and say, you know what, we will trade to Marta Rosen, right? We do want to rebuild and take our chances for the top four protective pick this year. We don't know that. The jazz right now, they're sliding.

they're becoming a team where maybe the odds are increasing that they would end up moving a Jordan Clarkson, right? Somebody like that, we don't know yet. So I think for the Lakers, it's, we know what they want to do, and that's trade one first round draft pick

attached to Russell Westbrook. They don't want to trade both attached to Russ. If they can get Buddy healed and Miles Turner for one first round draft pick, that's what they prefer to do. The problem is, there's other teams that would want Miles Turner too. If you're the Pelicans, you're this great team right now in the Western Conference.

You're David Griffin. You have all these future first round draft picks. It is advantageous for you to add another center to your roster in that rotation who's better than Jonas Valentinus, all due respect to and Miles Turner is better, to give up two first round draft picks to block the Lakers or a better value first round draft pick to block the Lakers to keep them outside of the point. playing. Oh, wow. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's easy to foresee a team

topping the Lakers offer for Miles Turner and Buddy Healed. I just, I have a hard time seeing that being the path for them to getting that guy. Not to mention Indiana's good and they want to win and they might want to keep Miles Turner. They might not even want to move him. So who is going to be available? We just don't know yet. We just don't know for the Lakers. That's going to require time to pass. Wouldn't it stand a reason that they would probably, just because we know the name came up a couple of weeks or a couple of months ago, you probably try to revisit the Bogdanovitch thing with a different team now because now he's a Pistons guy. 100%.

When you did that, when you were talking the first time, it was with Danny Aange and the Jazz. And he didn't want to move Bogdanovich to the Lakers. And they made an offer including one of those first round picks, as I reported before. And the Jazz said, no, they'd rather dump them to the. So they may be able to extract him from Bogdanov, or from the pistons. The tough part there though is I've wrote about this a couple

weeks ago. Dwayne Casey loves Bogdanovich and the pistons are so bad. Granted they win, you know, last night Bogdanovich drops 30, but they're so bad overall that they don't need to move Bogdanovich to have 14% lottery odds

unless they do, right? I mean, unless they do. Right now they have the third worst record in basketball. all. What if they end up moving down to five or six? Maybe they do need to move Bogdanovich. Well, and you're still in the, with them, you're still in the asset collection phase. You are. I agree. And by the way, I think, I think it's a no-brainer. They should move Bogdanovich. Of course. They should. You know what's going to happen to? They're going to, that's going to look brilliant because they signed them up to the contract, which is a reasonable contract going forward.

So the guy, you're not worried about him walking at the end. They played this right. Oh, perfectly. They're going to get more than what they gave up. They're going to, they bought, they got him cheap, and then they're going to flip him, and they're actually going to get back of better assets than what they had to give up to get him in the first. I mean, they gave up nothing.

I know, nothing. Nothing. Nothing. It's impressive what they're going to be able to do here. They should move him. And he should be a top target for the Lakers for sure. Yeah. I wonder who else.

Like, if the Bulls are the interesting one to me, if they were to decide to pull the plug on their situation there, if you can get DeMar de Rosen, add him to the mix with the Lakers. Imagine if you upgrade from Russell Westbrook to DeMar de Rosen, which they could have and should have done at the time. But that adds such a great new element for them with what they need this year. But what is pulling the plug if you're the bolts? It'd be willing to move anybody.

DeMar, Levine, Vouch. I mean, I think I look at it. Onzo, who's obviously sideline now. Well, and I think with the Levine thing that you could probably move him, and you could get a lot back. Like, I don't think you've got a bottom out. And I'm sure that if you're a Chicago fan, you're not real interested in bottoming out.

They just did it. They won 27 games, and then they won 22 games, and then they won 22 games, and then they won 32 games, and then they won 31 games. Like, they went through this. And you know what it got them? It got them Wendell, who they moved. It got him Kobe White.

It got Patrick Williams. I mean, they just had the fourth pick in the draft a couple years ago. I mean, maybe the one we probably liked the most is the guy they got like 30-something in the second round. I owed the Soon Mooh. You know, he'd be the one that I'd be most attached to. But, I mean, they had. They played that. Let's suck and get good lottery picks.

and they ended up with Wendell Carter, Kobe White, and Patrick Williams out of it. So I don't think that, I think that would probably be a tough sell amongst Bulls fans to go back to bottoming out. I think you could probably would be. Well, we've seen a lot of these teams build from the middle. We have. Sometimes the lottery balls don't bounce your way.

Sometimes they do. I get it. But the teams that have built from the middle have also had a lot of success doing it that way. And there's always guys that are available. Yeah, it's also a new, new front office as well. Garpax was the front office overseeing that rebuilding phase. And now you have AK in that front office.

I would trust AK more, given his history with the Denver Nuggets, than I would with Garpax. I think it's a new day for the Bulls here. So, I mean, yeah, you don't want to go straight into a rebuild, but you kind of rushed into this phase where you were trying to compete. and it's failed, it's flopped. So what are you going to do? Keep it going or try something new? I'd try something new.

Yeah, I think you can try something new. I'm just against getting rid of all of it and then just starting over from square one. I do think you've got, you've got pieces there you can build around. It might not just be a good fit with what they've got. And I think you could get a lot for Levine.

I think the return you could get for him is really good. And it would be more substantial than maybe what he's giving you. part for them is the fact that, you know, Vooch is going to be a free agent this coming off season. That's not tough. That's not tough.

You throw him the peace sign. Yeah, but what I'm saying is it's like you could lose him for nothing. Demar is a free agent the following year. You could lose him for nothing. So like this does have an expiration date as my point. Oh, yeah. With these veterans that you brought in to try to compete, there is, you know, a line here where they're going to have the ability to go.

And what are you going to do? Who are you going to bring in with what cap space? Yeah. What are you going to do? So I think for the Bulls here, they need to be proactive. Granted, it's only top four protected with reshuffle in the deck here, which they could become a team for the Lakers to make a move with or somebody else. One of the teams that you mentioned a few minutes ago was that Pelicans team,

and they're talking about maybe they could block the Lakers. They are in a very, very powerful position right now, given their record, their offensive rating, defensive rating, and also all of their assets. More importantly, this Zion game the other night. Oh, man. Holy mother. I mean, you know, I had talked about on Tuesday how this guy, if he, if he ever, like, just decided I'm going to dedicate myself to getting in the best shape of my life, he would be, I mean, just good luck.

Because it's already, when he gets a ball in his hands and you saw him when McCallum and Ingram are out. and he's just that guy, he's the guy. Make no mistake about it. There is no sharing this. There is no, right? Like the field goal attempts are going to be spread out everywhere. And he's playing like, he was like the superstar on that team the other night. And he looked like a superstar.

And it's crazy because I felt that way. Same thing was happening in two different places. And I'm not saying you're better off without those guys. but it's fascinating to watch, and I think it's a sign for the future that in the absence of some guys, you have some players that prove, like, boy, if you just give them the stage,

watch out. And that was these two just bea miths in Edwards, Minnesota, who I watched, demolished the Grizzlies. and Zion for the Pelicans, who had one of the great efficient nights of the season thus far. But both of those guys, it's like, geez, man, you could have those guys out there as role players,

and you get to see a different, you get to see a different gear to them that we don't always see. There's no stopping Zion. There's just no stopping it. Did you see the play he had against Toronto where he kind of drove through four guys? I think it was Scotty Barnes defending him on the left wing of Zion, brought the ball up,

and then OG kind of came over from the right and helped. I think it was Coloco, who was in room protection, and then Siakum came over to help, and it's like four red jerseys. What does it matter? It's like a superhero. It is. It just makes no difference.

It doesn't matter. It makes no difference. And I do wonder, like, you know, Do you, the trick is going to be, do we see that Zion when they're fully stocked? Can you get that level of Zion? Because that's a scary proposition. And you want it because he plays, right? Everybody's got a role on the team.

And while he's having an outstanding season, it's like, geez, man. Like there's a, there's only one basketball. And you got a lot of guys that are really good offensive. of players. And so there's two sides of that. Are you better off with him being one of? But I think that you saw the other night

like, man, you might be able to just surround this guy with the Alvarados and the nances of the world. And again, good luck. Who was stopping this guy when he decides I want to get to the basket?

I really felt that way the other night with Edwards too, Kev. I watched that anti-Edwards game. That's as good as you could see him. He had 22 of the last 34 points that he either scored or assisted on. And it was a little more open court in the absence of towns. But more importantly, that was a guy that clearly looked up and said, all right, Carl Towns ain't here anymore.

Time for me to cook. And, man, did he ever? Yeah. that's the Edwards that I think we thought we were going to see, especially after he talked so much trash to Wancho Hern and Gomez over the summer. He was, hey, he was, if anybody saw that game,

he was yelling like that at the grizzles. It was exactly like the movie. It was to the point where they got so mad and so mad at the officials that Morant and Brooks both got thrown out of the game. And I know that it wasn't all about the officials. I think it's because Edwards was scoring and he's one of those guys. And it was a taste of their own medicine in a way because they talked so much crap. That, boy, he was barking.

He's the kind of guy that beat you and lets you hear about it. And I think the frustration just boiled over. But man, oh, man, was he awesome, awesome. He looked like the guy we expected as he said, right? I mean, I hope he's able to keep that up. The way we saw him close in the playoffs was unbelievable, dude, right? Like getting downhill, scoring efficiently. I mean, he's not Zion on drives to the rim, but he's huge himself, hard to stop, big, burly score.

I mean, his ability to get downhill, he's somebody who you put a guy in front of him, he can plow through him. So I think with Anthony Edwards, it's going to be interesting to see the way this team performs without, Carl Anthony Towns because I think even though Edwards hasn't matched his postseason production he's been pretty comparable to what he was last regular season it's been cat who's been

underperforming. Not Rudy Gobert, not Anthony Edwards, it's been Carl Anthony Towns. So how does this team perform without Kat? I know you and I, Chris, disagree on the Gobert thing, but

can we at least agree that it's possible? ants and Gobert can grow together as a pick and roll duo. I mean, he still doesn't pass to him. He doesn't. He sits that high screen. He can't catch the ball, Kevin. He really can't. He can catch the ball.

I mean, if he's right underneath the basket alone and just puts it up and dunks it, that's how he got that. So he can't dribble the ball, that's fair. No, but I'm saying, like, he has to be standing there. You can't throw it to him on the road. Yeah, yeah, you can. Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can.

It has to be something he finishes. I'm saying like something above the rim he can. But I mean, unless you're throwing alley-oops to the guy. Yeah, you don't, look, you don't want Gobert dribbling. You don't want him putting the ball on the floor. Or moving. But like the thing is, is that, I pulled up the stat. Gobert, this season, in the picker hole, when he sets a screen,

he receives the ball three times per game and the wolves are scoring 1.2. points per chance he does. That's a great number. 1.2. The past five seasons with Utah, he also scored 1.2 points per chance he received the ball on the roll, except he received the ball six times per game,

double. They're just not putting him in positions to score the way he did in Utah. He's still protecting the rim at an elite level. 0.89 points defended per pick and roll over the last five seasons. This season, 0.8.8. He's still an elite pick and roll defender.

He's still an elite finisher. He's just not getting the ball as often. Cat is the guy who, once he comes back, needs to figure out how to adapt. Cat needs to figure out how to defend more in the wing. He needs to figure out how to play this different role on offense. He needs to get his shot right. It's on Carl Anthony Towns to evolve. It's going to be very fascinating, Kevin, to see how they perform without him.

Exactly. And if they perform well without him, what does that say about the future of Carl Anthony? towns. What does it means he's going elsewhere. They perform well

without him. Now, the question is going to be can they perform well without him? That we'll find out. We will find out. I mean,

they might be no better or no worse, which also would say something too when your max level player isn't, you know, the loss of him

isn't an impact your team. Possibility. I really don't know. I mean, Memphis was so bad in that game. They were.

I mean, they turned it over 27 times. The big problem was, I mean, they outrebounded the T. Wolves by 30. That was a weird one. 30. Gobert had the least amount of rebounds he's had in his life, literally. He's never played a game where he played over 15 minutes and had one rebound. Strange, right? Well, his room protection against Moran was really good, though.

Didn't let him get for the basket. Two of 11 of Jage shots were in the restrictions. that area with Gobert on the floor at seven of 11 of them from mid-range and only two of the free throws he took for a while Gobert was on the floor too. Gobert just didn't let him go ahead of the basket. Look, the free throw

thing is with Moran and the entire team. The Grizzlies, for people to watch, especially when it comes down to end the game, that's the worst free throw shooting team I've ever covered, ever. They can't make anything. They're in the 60s. You know, and that's a big

way towards going towards your offense. Like, we talking about the Celtics last week, like we were talking about, they take the most threes, they make the most threes, they shoot the highest percentage, and then we said they also shoot 85% from the line. I mean, with all of these teams that are trying to get shots in the paint and knock down threes, like, it's essential that you can make free throws. And that was obviously not the case in that last game that they played. But yeah, I think it's worth monitoring. that it's going to force them into something that should have been the case anyway, which is Edwards being the man.

Without question, he's the man. We're riding and dying with him. And I do think that that, you know, to who much is given, much is expected, at least night one of the, there's nobody better than me or nobody that should be getting the ball on this team except for me. and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get us home. Night one of Edwards being that guy and very clearly his team

was a rousing success. Now the question is, can you keep doing it? But I do think that, I told you they should have built around this guy in a way differently than what I thought they did anyway. I think they are, Chris. They are building around them. They're building around Ann.

and Gobert is the protector on defense and the lob throw it on offense. He's not a good fit with him. He's not. He's not a good fit with him. I disagree. Let's say they trade cat for other pieces. You're going to have an aunt, Gobert, pick and roll with spacing,

and you're going to have a situation where sometimes if a team switches screens, they often put the weakest defender on Rudy Gober because he can't post up, he can't dribble. If you're going to be switching that screen, is going to create an advantage for Anthony Edward. it's in isolation. And that's where you want him doing, is attacking mismatches.

So I believe it can work. I think it can. It can work with Kat. It's just Kat looks lost on defense. We talked about it last week where he's like doing the things the center is supposed to do instead of the things a wing is supposed to do. It's like habits that need to be broken. And his shot's just not falling at all right now.

I don't know how much of him being out during training camp preseason has to do with that, but he just hasn't looked like anywhere near what he was in the past as a score. I think it can work better than it has. I think part of it is he's not playing the five. He's playing the five. He's quicker. He's more agile. He could play big, big pods off the board.

That doesn't explain missing open shots, though, either. I think he's in a, I don't think he's in a good spot for his talent. I think he's massively effective as a five, especially in this day and age with the way the NBA's played. Having a five that could shoot 40% from three and stand out and space the floor in the manner that he did is a devastating proposition. And the other thing is he could hold up against all the ones that aren't, you know, Embed and Yokic. There's just a handful that are going to be the guys that can really kill you offensively on the other team. For the most part, you know, the good outweighs the bad with playing him at the five.

That's what I felt. And I think that not a power forward right now to me. Having to run around and chase those guys, I think it makes you worse defensively. He's a lumberer. Yeah. He's not an athletic guy. You know.

Next couple weeks, they're going to be interesting without him. Very interesting. Yeah. That's for sure. I'm excited. Seasers, the teams are scoring a ton. We've got these unbelievable individual performances that are going on.

We miss anything? Any news this week? I don't think so. Horford Extension, do we mention that? Yeah, I mean, I think that was like a thank you more than, you know, like having him around. Hopefully he'll be able to contribute when he's 39 years old, but even if he's not, it's Udonis Haslam, we appreciate what you brought to the team. Right? Be the keeper of the flame, be a great veteran presence.

He's still a really good player, though. How about poor Odonis? They threw his ass out there on. Oh, yeah. On Tado. Yeah, you see that video recording the courtside? That's crazy. Come on, man.

This guy should be, you know, no offense. But, I mean, he's not playing basketball much anymore. And now you're going to, I was like, are they just going to put him out there so he takes this guy's head off and hurts him or something? Like, you know, they do like in hockey. Or they used to bring out the goons. It's just going to have him. They're just going to have him send a mess.

and throw Tatum in the sixth row or something? What else is he doing? He ain't guarding him. So unless he's out there to hurt him, kick him in the nuts or something. I don't know why they got this dude out there. Last thing before we get out of here, a massive thank you to all of you

that have sent us via social media, all of the Spotify raps, and all of the, I know all the different platforms, Now kind of have this year-end thing and sending us screenshots of all the minutes that you've listened and where we rank on your podcast that you listen to. That was the day that that dropped, I guess, earlier in the week, Wednesday was massively overwhelming.

I went and checked my Twitter feed and my entire Twitter feed as long as I could keep scrolling with screenshots of people's. Right. And so that made me feel unbelievable. And we're, of course, indebted to all of you. We're certainly very appreciative of all of you that listen to this podcast on a weekly basis. And I was stunned at the amount of minutes that were listening. It's like 3,000 minutes of us. It's crazy to see the minutes of the podcast. But anyway, yeah, I know I speak for you. for you too and saying an enormous thank you to all of you. We're incredibly appreciative.

Seriously, it meant the world. I was, yeah, I shared as many of them as I could on Instagram, on Instagram stories, and it was always cool to see the messages attached, you know, with people saying, oh, you make my commutes, you know, fun, you know, you make my work days better. It's, you know, you made definitely our weeks better, too, you know, you make our, you know, lives better. It's, it meant the world to see that. And it's been cool. Like, this is year seven of us doing this, Chris. Long time! To connect with listeners all over the years,

see some familiar names in our Twitter feeds. It always means a lot when you guys reach out on Twitter or Instagram, whatever it is with your thoughts about the show, comments, whatever it is. But seeing those Spotify raps blows my mind seeing that, Chris. It really does. It's really cool. Super awesome.

Thank you, everybody. Thank you. And thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez. as always, Kevin. I will talk to you next week. Have a good weekend, everybody.