The Mismatch - Lakers Continuing to Fall, How Dinwiddie Got His Groove Back, and Whether the Celtics Should Be Considered Finals Sleepers

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

Verno and KOC open up the show by discussing yet another Lakers blowout loss, this time to the Clippers (01:54). KOC believes the loss was symbolic, while Verno can’t believe that the Clippers have been competitive without Paul George and Kawhi Leonard. Can the Clippers make some noise even if just PG returns (08:51)? While everyone is paying attention to James Harden in Philly, KOC points out that Spencer Dinwiddie has found his groove again since being traded to the Mavs (19:33). With the way the Mavs have been playing since the trade deadline, the guys believe that they have a chance to make a run (23:07). While the Warriors remain second in the West, they are 3-7 in their past 10 games and riding a three-game losing streak. The guys discuss Draymond Green’s importance to the Warriors and why James Wiseman will need to immediately contribute (31:10). Also, Verno gets real about the Celtics after watching them beat his Grizzlies on Thursday night (40:35). As the Celtics continue to play better, KOC asks Verno if they are finally Finals sleepers (47:05). Trae Young has been on a tear as of late, and the guys debate how far he can carry the Hawks this season (55:17). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Top MMA voices, Ariel Hwani, Chuck Mindenhall, and Pizzie Carroll are live on the Spotify Greenroom app for every major MMA card with The Ringer MMA show. Here the guys react to weigh-ins in real time and find out what they think of the fights the moment the final card ends. Plus, when breaking MMA news happens, they'll be live to talk to you about it. And if you miss the green room show, you can hear it as a podcast anytime on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mishmanch. I'm Chris Vernon. Join me as it does every Friday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber. Kevin O'Concer Kevin O'Camra, Kevin O'Chammer,

Kevin O'Conflin, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Killian, Kevin. Burdow! I got a quick question for you. I asked you the last two weeks the same as that question. Are the Boston Celtics final sleepers? Oh, how dare you?

Are they? You're just going to ask me this every episode until the end of time? Yeah, until the answer is yes. after seeing your Grizzlies lose 120 to 107 on Thursday night to the Celtics. We're going to get to that.

But that's not the biggest story of the night. And I will mention that this was the opportunity for Bill Simmons to come on and gloat about his Celtics. But I talked to him this morning. He did not see any of the game. Now, that works out perfectly for me. He didn't see any of the game. He actually went and watched the dread at Crypto.

Is it Crypto Arena? It's Stadium. It's Crypto.com arena. You can call it, just call it crypto. What if you want to call it? The Crypt. So the Lakers were booed mercilessly. They got smacked by the Clippers.

And I feel like the level of disappointment is at a peak right now. Kevin, what in the hell do you make of this? Oh, boy. I mean, well, first of all, like last night's game with it happening against the Clippers, didn't that feel like, I don't know, it's kind of symbolic facing the little, quote, unquote, Little Brother franchise, and they are just smacking you around without Paul George and without Kauai Leonard with Reggie Jackson. having his moments crossing over,

Russell Westbrook, talking trash, winning by 20 points in another game, another must-win game by the Lakers. It just felt symbolic to me that it was the clippers on the other side of this blowout victory, winning in the manner that they did

at crypto, at Staples, whatever you want to call it. It just felt symbolic to me, Chris. Reggie Jackson was absolutely unbelievable in that game. I mean, could you, if I would have told you that a team without Paul Georgia

without Kauai Leonard, that Clippers team, that we're going to look up and there's going to be a game at the beginning of March where the crowd is chanting. Reggie, Reggie, as the Clippers are beating the Lakers by 20 and the crowd is like booing all the time. Because look, the reason that matters, and I'm bringing up the booing,

because you can say, oh, what was a clipper game? Like, it wouldn't matter. Lakers fans buy those Clippers tickets. That arena is not, you know, overrun with Clippers fans when they play against the Lakers. And so to hear the level of discotent with the Lakers from their fans, and then to see Reggie Jackson be the best player on the floor. Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned this to you a few weeks ago when we had, I had just seen the clippers in person.

And I said, you know, is this Tai Liu like just a magician, like a miracle worker or something? Because I just saw them. I have no idea how they've won so many games. It's stunning, truly stunning, that they've won as many games as they have, given their personnel and given the conference. You know? They don't have anybody that even like sniff the All-Star game. They don't have anybody that anybody's talking about for any awards,

even though Ty Lou should probably get some coach of the year love. I mean, the job that he is done cannot be overlooked because they are, they're firmly going to be in that play-in, situation, and this is without two guys that you would have thought at least having one would be essential. And they're also, as you say, symbolic, they're a perfect example because you can say, we can do the, yeah, well, when Anthony Davis comes back, it's going to be a different deal. You can't, you can't use that when you played the Clippers. So what's your excuse? Anthony Davis is out

shit Paul George is out Kuwait Leonard is out you know like they're not they're not sitting around saying well the only reason things are like this is because

they're just taking care of business and I give a lot of credit to Ty Lou and while they certainly deserve praise we know that the story is always going to be about the Lakers and I just Well one second, wait, wait, wait,

wait, a second though. Like you, I think with this team, though, I mean, you're right. Ty Lou is somebody who is having an extraordinary season coaching this basketball team for them to be in the place that they are in the Western Conference with the roster that I have. I think that players deserve a ton of credit to here

because it's like, this is a team that could fold. Mentally, you don't have Paul George and Kauai Leonard. The team could fold, but they haven't. their effort and energy, the grit, the toughness that this roster operates with on defense has not at all declined after Paul George goes out, not having Kauai Leonard. And I think that that's a credit to both the coaching staff, you know, they have a switching defensive scheme with certain lineups on the floor, with Zubots out there, they're playing

more of their drop style coverage, more traditional type of defense. Like they're shape-shifting and playing hard every night despite not having their stars and like their defense is a top 10 defense that's why they're winning games our offense is bottom 10 this this clippers roster like it's all it goes back to your thing chris it's it's still it's the truth don't play guys who suck the clippers their entire roster every single night they're playing isaiah heart and steen off the bench for 20 plus minutes and he doesn't suck they found like good players and i think this clippers front office clippers cogent staff the clippers roster. All that's missing right now from this team is Kauai Leonard and Paul George.

That's all that's missing. All right. Let me ask you something else you need. Let's write off Kawhi. And that may be foolishness, but let's just write off. Let's just say Kawhi Leonard doesn't come out. Why not? Why not? Would it really be that surprising if we get a story in late March from Chris Haynes or Shams or Woj, whoever it might be. And they say, there's a chance Kauai Leonard returns in the second week of April and the lead up to the NBA playoffs. Would that be shocking? No, it's certainly a possibility, okay?

But I'm just saying for the purpose of this exercise, let's act like he's not, but that Paul George is. Let's say Paul George is. If they just get Paul George back, can they be really dangerous to a high sea because we know that last year

they ended up being devastating to a high sea. I mean, they took down Utah and they didn't have Kauai Leonard last year in that series. And so the question becomes, if, you know, we see the level that they're playing at right now, we don't even have to give them Kauai.

Let's just write that off. If they just get George back, I mean, now with Covington, you know, I know the Norm Powell injury stunk right after they got him, but they've got a bunch of wings for a team that can't play

small, they'd be a big, big problem. What do you think? If they just get George back, would you be scared of them? Scared of them? If I'm the sons or the warriors slash grizzlies and the two seed. Yeah. I mean, they'd be a tough out.

You know, I think they'd be, again, I tough, you know, greedy team that's going to probably win one or two. But scared, I mean, I'm not scared unless the opponent has like a top 10 guy. And with Paul George, he has nights where he can be a top 10 guy, but Kauai Leonard has more of those. So I would just straight up say, not that terrified. Be a little nervous because they're tough out and they could grind you down for the coming series, like down the line too.

They're that type of team. For the clippers to be in this position right now, man. Like, I don't know, Chris. I think about, you mentioned their versatility. What if you do get Kauai and George back? You're playing lineups of Batum, Morris, Kauai, George. It's a different world.

I think it both of them back. It's a different world. Yeah. You know, but look, where it stands right now. I mean, there's so many combinations. Where it stands right now, it's probably most likely. Now, they could flip-flop,

but it's probably most likely that that's who Minnesota has to play in the 7-8 game. Yeah, that's tough, man. But, like, there's also a shot. Like, you think about Adam Silver, he's out last night, and he can't sleep because he's like, oh, my God, we need the wolves to beat the Clippers in the first playing game, and we need the Lakers to beat whoever the other team is, because then we get Lakers' Clippers, one game playing for the eight scene.

We could get that. Adam Silver must be excited about that possibility, Chris, right? He's got to be. A Lakers Clippers one game playing for the eight scene, a chance to get in? That would be sick. Do you think that LeBron James will apologize for saying that whoever came up with this play-in tournament should be fired? I doubt it.

I doubt he'll have the accountability to apologize for that. I don't believe so. Okay, let me play a little devil's advocate on the Lakers because this is like the absolute bottom wrong. Okay. Anthony Davis and LeBron James have played 546 minutes together this season. I went and looked it up. It's the equivalent of 11 games.

11 games. That's how many minutes they played together. LeBron, Russ, and Davis as a triumphant, they've played 376 minutes. That's less than eight games of basketball. And just as a point of reference, most any three-man unit has played this year is Bogdanovich, Royce O'Neill, and Donovan Mitchell in Utah. They've played almost a thousand more minutes together than Russ, A.D. and LeBron. And in far as two-man combos, this is going to make you laugh.

The most is Evan Fortier and Julius Randall over 16. over 1,600 minutes, so that's over a thousand minutes more than LeBron and AD have played together. And they have a negative 3.9 net rating. I mean, the two players that have played the absolute most on the floor together is a losing combination. That doesn't speak very well for Tim's, I don't think. And what's crazy is when you woke up, I looked up like the most the most played two-man combinations,

of course, virtually all of them are net positives. Many of them big net positives. Because it would stand to reason, getting these two guys on the court together benefits your team in a big way until you scroll down and then you see a negative seven. It just stands out like a sore thumb.

And I'm like, what the heck? Negative seven. Another next one. Another Julius Randall one. R.J. Barrett and Evan Fortier. And I'm like, come on. What is going on here? But yeah, it's another next one.

Timbs plays his guys a lot of minutes, Chris. Do you think that that is worthy of mentioning that, hey, it's not necessarily as bad as it looks because Davis and LeBron have only played 546 minutes together. And when you team up those three guys, which is the three they put together, they've only played 376 minutes together. I mean, less than eight games when you think about it in that way, that's ludicrous. truly. To be at this point of the season

and your three guys that you were going to put together as a combo have played less than the equivalent of eight basketball games. I mean, Chris, what have we seen this year? We see the Grizzlies Excel without John Morant in December. We see we see like Jalen Brunson keep the Mavs afloat a couple months back while Luke is out. They were like a 500 team. Kept them afloat. We're seeing the heat

be the number one seed right now in the Eastern Conference. Dan Devine wrote a great story of the Ringer or how with all the guys they've hit in and out of the line of Lowry and out at one time, bam out at one time. They've experimented, done different things. They're still the one seed. The Bulls don't have ball and Caruso. I.O. Dosuna slides in and he's become this great rookie. He's going to become an all rookie team guy. They're the three seed in these right now. The Sixers don't have their second best player in Ben Simmons. Everybody else is lifting their games up. Joe El M. B. does it. The role player, Seth Curry's having a big year. We've seen this year across the NBA the importance of depth and the importance of having guys that can fill different roles.

And the Lakers, they've had guys in and out of the lineup, like you said, with their stars missing time not playing together. So on one hand, maybe you give them a little bit of a pass. They just haven't played much together. But on the other, though, to me, this speaks to the quality of the overall roster. and this Lakers team just doesn't have the guys that they expected to or hope to have. And that includes starting with Russell Westbrook just not being what they had hoped for. But the rest of this roster that they gave up and with the choice to get Russell Westbrook, it's just depleted compared to the years past. Caruso was one of those guys.

He's gone now. Contavius called Wall Pope. Gone now. Cusma, gone now. These guys that could on a certain night get 20 plus points per game. They don't have that now. LeBron has kind of skirted blame on this because make no mistake about it, he's responsible for the roster in the sense that Russell Westbrook is there because of him.

And if he would have really gone to bat for Caruso, Caruso would still be a Laker. And they could have traded for Buddy Heel that got them some shooting. And, you know, Horton Tucker is a clutch client. Caruso was DeRosen DeMarrozen DeMarrozen had a meeting with LeBron and AD

DeRosen met with him that dude's going to finish top five in MVP for the Bulls this year in a normal year where Yannis and Yokic Ann M.B.

aren't having historic all time whatever you want to label it seasons DeRosan's probably the leader for MVP and nobody's really arguing about it

and getting pissed off about it. But DeRoson's in that conversation and the Lakers could have got him. You're right. abroad does deserve some blame.

Blame goes everywhere. And we can talk about the fact that Anthony, oh, Anthony Davis is out. But here's the truth of the matter, Kev. Anthony Davis is always out. I read something yesterday and I was like, holy mackerel. Anthony Davis has played, I think this is nine years in the NBA, right? It might actually be more. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.

This is his 10th season. he's played more than 70 games twice, twice. Made of glass. Made of glass. He is. And if you look like he played 75 and 2017 for New Orleans, since then he's played 56, 62, 36, and now this year, he's played 37 games this year. I mean, so it's not like that's unexpected.

You know, we could say, oh, well, Anthony Davis is out. Like Anthony Davis is out. What's new? He's out a lot. Yeah, that's old news. What's new? All right. Enough about them, but it is wild to watch that play out inside crypto.

The Warriors got smacked around by Dallas last night. They are on a bad, bad run right now. We've talked so many times about how desperately they need Draymond Greenback. But you tweeted about Luca Donchens, who has gone out. absolutely nuclear over the course of the last, I mean, more than few weeks, but these last few weeks, it's been absolutely incredible, especially like, since that game right after the trade deadline, they had surprisingly moved Porzengis and he went crazy that next game.

He has been absolutely freaky because you know. know he's the guy on that team. You know that teams are planning with him in mind, and there's nothing you can do with them. And by the way, the Warriors just faced him a few nights ago, you know? And Dallas won that game, too, in some similar fashion,

Dinwiddie closing down the stretch again. In both of those games, Dinwiddie's been terrific since they got him. He was bad all year long in Washington. He just looked like he wasn't anywhere near his pre-ACL self, but he looks like the Spencer Dinwiddie of old, ever since the trade deadline. It's like everybody talks about James Hardin,

turning into James Hardin. Spencer Didwitty has turned into Spencer Didwitty. Well, you know, I heard House talking about this at the beginning. Remember they got off to their best started 40 years, and they were talking about how like Dinwiddie started to like kind of take over a leadership role, whatever. and they kind of like pushed him back and we're like yeah yeah yeah that ain't you they did a lot of a lot of the guys i mean like maybe not a lot but he wasn't like loved in that locker room necessarily ever there's you know and i think that team didn't love everybody like there's a lot of guys who don't like each other in Washington i mean it's just that the losing team comes in with great expectations gets off to a fast tart i think there's a lot of finger pointing that happens in teams like that um but like now at this point with dallas you have Luca

with sharing the ball with Dinwiddie who has been tremendous with this team. The past doesn't matter anymore. You have Dinwiddie and Brunson sharing the rock with Luca. Who could have thought that the exchange of Porzingis for Dinwiddie and Burthans would so

quickly, so obviously be a benefit for Luca and for the Mavericks as a total team because with Luca, he has 41 points last night against the war. years on 26 shots. The last time he scored 41 points was on January 19th.

And I tweeted up the stat last night. Since January 19th, Lucas averaging 33 points, 10 rebounds, 9 assists, shooting 39% from 3. He's absolutely crushing it for well over a month now. The reason why I chose January 19th is not just because he scored 41 points on both nights, but

like that's kind of the game where it felt like there was a big turn for me with watching Luca. Because remember he misses time mid-year, ankle injury, COVID. He comes back in early January. It was a little bit of a ramp up time. Then he scores 41 points against

a pretty solid Raptors team. That's where things changed. And ever since then, since before then, Dallas has been on a role. This is a team now that I think it is worth considering them as a team that's not maybe a, they're not finals, you know,

contender yet. They're not that level. But the way in which that they're playing with their versatility on defense, the amount of tough guys they have to stop on offense. I think with Dallas, they're in that category of, hmm, they could make a run here.

I'm going to tell you. They could make a deeper run in the playoffs. Like, to me, I feel, I see that potential, Chris. I'm going to surprise you on this. Number one, apologies. I've been wrong about this. Like, I, you know, I didn't like to trade out of Rick Carlisle for Jason Kidd.

It's worked out great. I didn't. A slow start for kid. Slow start for kid as well. Yeah, the trade was surprising to me. The Dinwiddie Burthons, like, what are we doing here? I didn't get it. It's worked out great.

Like they've been coming up. They have three guys now. Three guys who can beat you out the dribble. They've been coming up aces on these moves. Yeah. You know, their coaching move and the personnel move. And I am not overreacting when I tell you, Kevin, They are absolutely a Western finals contender.

If they're in the West finals, it won't shock me a bit. And then you've got a puncher's chance. And here's the two things. Exactly. A, Luca can be the absolute best player in any series that has played anywhere on earth. He may have been against the Clippers the last two years against Kauai on particular nights. And B, they have the ability to lock down and strangle you out. where you just don't score.

But more importantly, there's a lot of teams that are very, very comfortable running up and down the court, playing open floor, pace and space basketball still. And they are the pace and space killer. That's what so many games can turn into half-court games in the playoffs. And they are right at the bottom of the league in pace. and that is because of Luca. You cannot speed him up. You can't.

You can try to bring guys at him. You can try to, you can try your best to speed him up. You are playing at his pace. End of story. He's going to dictate the pace in the game. And that's how you're going to play. And they're fine playing you,

hey, we're going to pick and roll, that we're going to reset, then we're going to pick and roll, we're going to reset, and then we'll take a good shot. It might take us until there's four left on the shot clock. We don't care. And now, after our possession, you've got to come down. And they'll guard you.

And they'll guard your first option and your second option. And you've got to try to make something happen or have somebody be individually spectacular. But that makes you very, very tough when it comes to playoff basketball. When you can play the we run a play, you run a play. and you've got possibly the best player on the floor in that game? I mean, I think it'd be foolishness not to consider them as, this thing's pretty open. I don't think there's a massive difference between the Mavericks

and the Warriors, the Grizzlies, even the Suns. Like, I could see, I could see them being a problem for literally anybody they get a series with. For sure. I mean, I think with this, with this Mavs roster, man, like having Brunson and Dinwiddie, it just allows you to be a little bit more creative with Luca. And I'm sure come playoff time when defenses are game planning with switching schemes, you'll see those guards screening for Luca, forcing switches,

he'll be picking apart mismatches in a postseason setting. And they've been doing it all year long. They've been doing it all year long because they slow it down, as you said, one of the top half-court offenses on all of basketball, well, they want to be in the half court. They thrive in the half court. This team now, man, like, it just, it feels, it feels right. Like, I think if you're Dallas, you ideally would love Jalen Brunson to be a star,

like another star next to Luca in the back court, another guy who can handle the ball or the wing or at the guard spot. But ultimately, man, like, it just, the, the personality of the team just feels right. And I think with Luca, with Luke, no, wait a minute, like, would Luca do? Like, you got to give him credit too. You've got to give him regret it as well because he starts off the year out of shape. What is he now playing better defense than he has since at least last year? He is playing a style on offense with more movement.

He's not cutting like he did for Real Madrid by any means, but he is more active. I'm just very impressed with the way Luca, Mark Cuban said a little while ago, I think maybe one or two weeks ago at a Dallas radio station, he's like, Luca heard the criticism from within externally, and he responded to it. Some guys don't. Luca got better from his early season struggles from realizing, damn, I am out of shape. And he's come back playing some of the best basketball we've ever seen in the regular season from him.

It's credit to him and really the coaching staff and that front office for taking a risk trading poor Zingis. It was a risk to trade a big-name guy like that, but they did it. Oh, for sure. And when they made that deal, that Dinwiddie, is such a good lesson because a lot of the reaction, including myself, was,

oh, they traded for a guy that could talk crypto with Mark Cuban and basically a dead person in Bertant. And instead, it's worked out and it's worked out perfectly. And it's a lesson in that whole,

maybe there's some, you know, some increased motivation. And yes, he's playing differently. But we talked so many times about opportunity and fit and how much those things are required for your success in the NBA. And playing next to Luca is a perfect fit. I mean, they're closing the games with this guy.

It's happened multiple times recently where a kid has left him out there. and he's in the closing lineup. And it looks much more like the Dinwiddie that was on that fun-loving Brooklyn team under Kenny Atkinson that we all thought was really good. We all liked him prior to injury. And one that we thought was a big loss for Brooklyn when they lost him last year. He looks again like the Dinwiddie that we all really like. He just hadn't looked like that guy. And maybe it is, you know, an increased level of motivation.

Maybe you got down on everything playing in Washington. Or maybe it's just, hey, this is a perfect situation for him and his skill set and kind of being in a winning environment and kind of what he brings to the table. And ACL recovery also takes time. I mean, like when I reported, you know, the stuff about Dinwiddie last month, there was a reaction from some people that was like, you got to get a. of these guys time to call him a shell of his former self. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, right now, right? At this particular moment, he doesn't look like

anywhere close than Spencer Didwitty that I've loved for years. I love I love Spencer Didwitty at Colorado. He tears his ACL. There's a reason why he slips right outside the lottery. Like, he would have been like right outside the lottery had it not been for that

torn ACL. So he goes to the second round. And I think with Dinwiddie, there's always concern that a guy can ever get back from an injury or stay healthy. But now it's at the point that you know this dude, he could get 20 points per game. We saw him do that with Brooklyn a couple years back.

We've seen him excel in different types of roles. So for him now, maybe it's partially motivation, like you said, I bet that definitely has to be a component of it. How can it not be when you go from a locker room where guys don't love each other to a locker room that feels like it has a chance to win something and accomplish something together

with a great player in Luca that you can look at and be like, we get a chance to win with a guy like him in our locker room. He wants to make everybody better. I mean, like your motivation has to be through the roof if you're Spencer Dinwiddie. And the time, the more time has passed since that ACL surgery

where you're recovering. I'm buying, I'm buying the version of Spencer Dideroy we've seen since the deadline. Yeah. Also, another credit to kid for putting him in those positions. You know what I mean? And taking his skill set and fitting him in within the context of what they're trying to do in Dallas and it working perfectly.

How about on the other side, though? We've talked so much about Dallas and Luca and how great they've looked. You worried about the Warriors? I'm only worried in the sense that we've been talking about. Like I had Jason Maples on Wednesday's Void podcast, and he brought up like this team, they need Wiseman to offer something. you can't rely on Draymond Green to battle

through all three rounds in the postseason when you know you could potentially have to have a hard fought you know first round series you know battling against Zubats for 30 minutes a night

you then in the second round you might have to face potentially Yokic and then in the third round you might be facing Aiton and then in the finals you might be facing you know Joel Mbbe

like that that's the way it could work out and like having Wiseman to be able to give you 15 minutes per game is going to be of the utmost importance down to stretch here. In addition to what you said earlier, Chris, Draymond Green. I guess that was before the show we talked, Draymond Green, but you've said it earlier in our conversation. You mentioned back injuries.

Back injuries are scared. And with Draymond, with getting him back, you've got to have Draymond green at 90 plus percent, ideally at 100 plus percent to have any shot of making a run here. because the West is a gotlet, man, with the top teams. With the top teams, it could be a gauntlet, just like the East is going to be. The East is a little bit more deeper this year than the West is. But damn, dude.

That would be, though, what you're saying, though, is if we're talking about Wiseman being able to be like a real contributor, that to me is alarming. And I know that is conjunction with, you don't know what Traymond. Kev because I know James Wiseman as a player obviously he went to high school here in Memphis. He has not played very much as a warrior. They didn't really figure out how to use him. It wasn't good last year. He just wasn't good last year.

No, straight out. He wasn't very good. Well, he also, the big problem is he can't play that Draymond type. You know, the way they function is with a guy that when Curry gets doubled at mid-court, that you can throw it to him in the middle and he can initiate offense from there. That's not the type of player that Wiseman is. And look, he's going to be coming back from injury. You're talking about lining up. You mentioned a couple of those guys.

Look, Yokic will kill him. Zubots will kill him. Adams will kill him. Gobert will kill him. Aiton will kill him. Like if you're talking about needing him for those guys, he is going to get killed by those guys. I think it's like, I mean,

it's really about getting him for 10, 15 minutes per game. But he's not ready for that is what I'm saying. He's not. And I think that that is going to be something to monitor because then the load goes on Dremont Green's shoulders, who's already dealing with a back injury right now. and you can't have Draymond battling Yokic in the first round, then Gober in the second round. And then, you know, I mean, like it's just all that's up, man.

Think about all those guys I just mentioned. Yokic, I even threw Zubot in there. Yeah. Adams. As you should, Zubat Zubat's had some good games against the Warriors of Shire and against everybody for that matter. Zubat's is good, period. Yeah, Adams, Aiton, Gobert.

I mean, these are all full grown-ass men. Mm-hmm. You know, that. James is not ready for that these guys you know these guys don't make mince me to him it's too much to expect

you know and obviously it's a lot on Draymond it's a lot and me look Kevon Loney is the one that and they've run him into the ground well well here's the thing though Chris you know

you get let's say you get 100% Draymond and Clay continues to improve and you get Steph. You'll say he's get Steph at his best. You get those three guys rocking.

We haven't seen them for more than a second because Draymond's last game, he quote unquote played. He was there for the opening tip and that's it for Clay Thompson's return in January. We haven't seen those guys play together at all. And we can't forget what those guys were together. We've seen what they can be with just two of the three this year and last year for a long time now. We've seen what they can be

with just two of the three. We haven't seen what they can be with all three of them together in a long, long, long time. We know what they can be. We know what they can be,

though. This is proven. We've seen them with two of the three. They have had Curry and they've had Clay and they haven't been good. They have to have Dreimann. This has underscored

his massive importance. When I was looking through all that net rating stuff in terms of the players, I think he's like, plus 10? Yeah, he's outstanding. I mean, they win.

They, per 100 possessions, they win by 10 points with Draymond Green on the court. I mean, that's immense. Immense. I look forward to when someday, when I'm your age, Chris, and kids are like, Draymond Green's a Hall of Famer.

He scored six points per game. He's a scrub. Those players back in the 2000s, 2000s, they used to suck back then. And I'm like, you know, know Draymond Green.

Like you don't understand Draymond Green and the impact that he made. Isn't it really amazing though that a guy doesn't score? Oh yeah. It is as important as Draymond green but it really does just show.

You know what I tell? My son knows obviously. But it is funny you say that because during that All-Star weekend that that was the reaction when who was it that walked out? Bill Sherman. He goes,

who is Bill Shorman? Sharman. That was the one. And, you know, he knows most every older player because of 2K. But anyways, he has a big time awareness of Draymond Green. But for him, for any other kid that's coming up, what I would tell them is, you know, how like people make a big deal out of triple doubles, right? But I saw Draymond Green in person have a triple double without the points, Kevin. I have never seen someone dominate a game without scoring in a way that he dominated the game, ever. It was steals, too. Ten steals and ten rebounds at ten assists.

It was crazy. And he just dominated the game. And you tell somebody that, they'll get the pitcher. not to imagine, come on. He's been on the title teams. And he also... He's going to be on TV too. He'll be on TV as well.

Let me tell you the other thing that is the great Draymond Green lost game is the LeBron you know, Kyrie team that won that finals. That's game seven in Golden State. So that's when the best players show up the biggest in game seven. That's when it's time, right?

Go look at what Draymond Green did in that game. And it is forever forgotten because they lost. They lost to Cleveland that is looked at as a disappointment that season. They won all those games, but they didn't win the title. But in that game seven, he was unbelievable. when it mattered most. 32 points, 15 rebounds, nine assists,

two turnovers, only two turnovers, and no one even knows that. No one even knows that happened. 46 minutes and 54 seconds played in a 48 minute game. Draymond Green was absolutely outstanding. They were only a minus one in his minutes,

only a minus one. And it's like it never happened. Yeah, it's like it never happens. It's a game. They played Cleveland pretty much even with Draymond on the floor and lose the game. I would say if they win that game, his legacy is completely different because that's looked at as, oh, my God. The whole season on the line and he had 32, 15, and 9. Especially after the suspension.

He gets suspended for that game five. Yes. And they lose that one. They lose six. if Draymond comes out, scores 32 points in game 7 victory. Yep. To prevent the 3-1 comeback, people do think about Drayvon green a little differently, offensively, which is a shame because they shouldn't win.

We've seen enough Draymond where it doesn't matter. They win or lose that game and know his offensive impact. But you're right. That would have been like a legacy defining game. I've made it this long without having to talk about how real the Celtics defense was. Celtics defense is real. They were playing without Jalen last night and beat up the Grizzlies. That was a very ugly first half.

I mean, I thought the rims might break. And then in the second half, everything picked up. And it was a big time, John Morant and then Jason Tatum display. Morant had a monster second half after a really down first half. And then Tatum had almost 20 in that fourth quarter and was absolutely unbelievable. And that game, the pace picked up and the scoring picked up in a major way in that second half. But I will tell you, Kevin, I did come away. Very impressed with the Celtics.

I did. It's impressive. And they, for a team that makes its bones with points in the paint and offensive rebounding, that's how the grizzers is not a very good shooting team. They forced them to shoot. They force them to shoot.

Because when you look up and it's time to drive, they've got a lot of wings out there. I thought smart was outstanding offensively. 12 assists and was setting guys. up, but Horford and Williams, you know, Al Horford, I don't know what he's been drinking, but he had 15 rebounds in this game. I mean, Fountain of youth stuff, 15 rebounds. And Rob Williams, I mean, they're big.

And the other thing is, I do think with their defense, you put a lot of pressure on people to make shots. they will let you get those shots. You'll get a lot of open shots like the Grizzlies did, but there's a big difference between getting some open shots and making them. And what they don't let you do is have easy buckets that are not from a distance from the goal, right? They'll let you shoot some threes. They will. At least they certainly would the Grizzlies.

but you're not you're not running a layup line on them and I thought very good Grizzies have had a hell of a time with that team I can't remember the last time they won in Boston I can't remember it it's been forever and most of them have been bloodbats but certainly I did come away impressed with Boston and if I'm going to give credit to Dallas and say, hey, you can strangle somebody out and you can get stops when you need to, and you can play some half-court basketball too. And that's how the playoffs are set up.

Then I've got to take Boston more seriously. I do. I think Boston showed the playoff defense that John Morant is going to see in terms of the switching against him, sagging off saying, hey, Shoot the ball, Jha. Shoot. And sometimes he'll make you pay, but you've rather him shooting the ball than getting all the way to the basket.

And with Boston and last night's game, John Mrant. But he figured it out. He did figure it out. Jai can figure out. But just to give the numbers, though, to show how different the defense was last night, John Morant ran 27 pick and rolls.

The Celtics switched screens on 15 of those. This entire season of the over 1,000 pick and rolls that Jammarant has ran for the Grizzly. he's been switched against only 15% of the time. So it is infrequent that John Morant sees a switch. The Celtics did it on over half of the pick and rolls that he ran. Whether it was Williams, Horford, whoever it was switching on to him. It was just something they did and they sagged off.

Like you said, he can figure it out. He can still go off for big games because he's John Morant. He's an outstanding player. That's what outstanding players do. But from a schematic point of view, that was just my main thought watching the Celtics win that game last night, an elite defense in Boston, which gives them a chance to win every single night. They showed what other teams are going to be copying in the postseason when they're game planning from Memphis in the same way that, in my opinion, Boston very clearly

did ahead of that game. Well, and there's two things, as I've watched throughout this entire season. The teams that have been, first you dedicate a big wing. You don't let your guards try to garden. You dedicate a big wing and then you make him see two all the time. You know, first you're backed up and then you make him see somebody. And usually that second guy, you can't, he'll destroy drop coverage because he'll just pull up for the floater a thousand times. Okay. You make him see somebody and it's usually even sometimes all the way out to like the free throw line. But you really, in order to stop him or to give him a problem, you need to dedicate two. And then it's on the other guys to have big games, you know, and knock down shots because

he is a willing passer and they're going to get all kinds of open shots. But I've seen two teams do it well. I saw a game in New York. They used R.J. Barrett. And then he saw either sometimes Randall, sometimes it was Mitchell, and those were, and then that game, Zaire Williams is very good. Jackson was very good. I saw it in Minnesota. They played against Minnesota. They used Anthony Edwards on him. Used Anthony Edwards and then made him see a second guy, you know, up, up closer, you know,

than the rim. If you back up all the way, if you do the drop coverage thing, it's a nightmare. He's, he's killing. But if you can make him always see two guys, it's more difficult. But that's the pick your poison. If you dedicate. one player to him, you're smoked. You have to make him see a second guy. And in many cases, Boston did last night. They're good. So are they, are they a final sleeper?

Are they? East finals? No, NBA final sleeper. Are they a sleeper to go to the NBA finals? No. No? Really? You're still not there, Chris?

I think you'll get there eventually. Why? Because this defense is legit. All right. Let me ask you this. The Celtics defense is absolutely legit. Okay. Look, finally I'm going to put you the fire on this. Do you think they're better than Philly?

No. Do you think they're better than Miami? I'm not, it's not about if they're better than these teams. I mean, the answer is no to all of them. Okay, do you think they're better than Milwaukee? I can answer it advanced. It's a totally different conversation about whether Team A or Team B is better. I'm asking if there's like, team A,

team B, team C, team D, if there's also an E that has a chance to make the finals. That's what I'm asking. It's a totally different thing. Because they're six. But like there's not always an F. Sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's only two clear finals contenders in a conference.

Sometimes there's five or six. You just said or you just made the argument earlier for Dallas. You're like, it wouldn't surprise me with a guy like Luca. They make it all the way to the Western Conference finals. and then who knows. I'm saying if the Celtics make it all the way to the Eastern Conference finals, who knows? With an elite number one defense

and Jason Tatum and Jaylon Brown coming back, they didn't win, they won that game last night without Jaylon Brown. I think those five teams are pretty damn strong. I mean, any of those, and that doesn't even include Brooklyn. You're talking Brooklyn, oh, you're not even including Brooklyn,

but Miami, Philly, Chicago, Milwaukee, Brooklyn. If you said all five of those teams are better than Boston, I'm not going to waste my time arguing about that. All I'm saying is Boston is the sixth and that they belong at least in the conversation of a team that could make it. Anytime you have an elite defense, the way they have with the type of offensive power that they can't have,

the big concern with Boston is the fact that they have eight guys. They have a shallow rotation. They're already playing their playoff rotation. And that can wear you now over the course of the season. Let me just be clear. Pull one guy out like Derek White gets hurt last night. that could really hurt you. That's the concern to Boston.

So you said this, but let me be clear on this, okay? Number one, regarding, you say, well, you say Dallas, and you throw them in there, that is majorly because they're not beating Phoenix if Chris Paul's 100%. Okay, so let's just get that out of the way. But he's banked up. Memphis has never won anything. Golden State is banged up. Utah has been underwhelming.

Denver is. banged up. You know, like here, who I'm talking about them being able to beat. All these teams are question mark. I can do the same thing, though, in the east, though. You can say, oh, the heat have had guys in and out of lineup all year long. The Sixers have two guys that have missed time and they're beating hard.

I know. And I'm just saying, but you can do that, though, with any of these teams. The Bulls have guys out right now to that matter. But Nets have guys out right now for that matter. Like, these teams do have concerns as well. the window is open is my only point here. And what I'm interested in is who are the teams that could jump through it? They have at least a chance, even if it's a slim chance.

I'm just surprised you're not there with the Celtics. I am just surprised because I just think about here was my thought last night, Chris. So it's kind of like a quick shift and change of topic. But this is why the in-season tournament is a necessity. Like October, November, December. Does any of that matter for like the NBA? playoffs. No. Like, Luca was fat and out of shape. The Celtics were a dumpster fire to watch.

The league was totally different by the end of 2021. If you had a in-season tournament to define that section of the season, like everything in the last couple weeks, months is a totally different story, totally different teams and circumstances. Like the Celtics of October, November, December, they don't matter. They don't matter to what the Celtics are today. And I think this team, since really the calendar turned, since Udoka figured out this rotation, Tatum and Brown getting better as playmakers,

smart embracing being a point guard. This defense with Robert Williams playing off of wings has been written out many times. Jared Weiss was on with weekends with laws talking about the Celtics defensive scheme, how Robert Williams has utilized, is really a roaming off ball, protecting the rim. Ever since they've made these changes, the Celtics have the best defensive basketball. Their offense has been so much better,

and it can improve even further if Tatum, and once Brown gets back, if those guys start shooting trees the way they did the last two years, the Celtics can be even better than they've been. And I think we're at the point here with Boston that they very well deserve to be considered a sleeper to make the finals in the east, despite all the competition, because of what this team is now.

because of what they are now. What happened October through December is completely irrelevant to me for almost every team in the NBA, but especially the Celtics, because they are so different. Well, hold on that. You're talking, let's be clear.

You're talking NBA finals when you're talking about this. You're not talking to Eastern Conference finals. So to represent the East and the finals, they are a final seat. Yes. Who do you think has a better chance of being the NBA finals? The Memphis Grizzlies or the Boston Celtics, and this will tell me what I need to do.

I'd probably say Grizzlies for the reason you said Chris because of all the concerns in the West you get Chris Paul out right now Dreemann back injury the Grizzlies could beat you know Utah Dallas we don't know what Denver's going to look like

with Porter and I'll tell you this I would be just to be fairs fair I would be absolutely stunned if either of them are in the NBA finals so I mean and I'm

and I'm the supposed Memphis Homer I got so uncomfortable with Rob Mahoney picking them to saying he thinks they can make the West finals the other thing. I'm like, let him win a playoff series first. Is the attention a little bit much?

I'm curious about your thoughts because like, you know, I tweet the other day I saw it like I tweeted, we're so lucky to watch John Moran. There's not a lot of people, but a handful of Grizzlies fans were like, what do you mean by we? I was like, I don't know, we like people who love basketball ball? Like, what do you think I mean by we? But it's like getting defensive

about like, he's our guy, he's Memphis. You know, and I understand that. But, but, but my point is, is that like, now that the national media is leaping on Jha, is there any, any bit of that with like the Grizzlies fans? Like, no, no, everybody's just, everybody's. Stop calling us a finals contender.

Stop, back to my, you know, Jah, this and that. I don't know. Yeah, I, look, and I said this to Bill. I just don't want, I don't want anything about this to be disappointing to people. It's so unexpected and so ridiculous that setting it up to where it could be disappointing, there's not supposed to be in this spot. I agree.

It's not the trajectory, you know? It's so far ahead of schedule. It is so far ahead of schedule. So being disappointing to me, that's what makes me squeamish. It's like, no, come on. Like, they got to win playoff series. first. But, but like, even if they lose in the first round, let's, let's say

then people would consider them a disappointment. That I don't like it. But it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be though. I know. It shouldn't be unless it's a sweep. If it's a sweep, then it's a disappointment. But if they lose in the first I know, but I'm saying that would be a disappointment. Oh, I guess so. Can you imagine if they do get sweat,

then they play that clip back? You never hear from me again. All right. Trey Young had the game of the night and down the Bulls. The Bulls have had a rough go recently. And there's another one of those like, hey, are they dangerous? The Hawks just, they haven't taken hold like, you know, you'd want them to as a team that

was an Easter conference finals team last year. And it was like, okay, they're going to hit a run where they win a ton of games and then they'll just be solidly in the position that they're in. They're right now sitting at 10. it's going to be almost impossible for them to get to, you know, six, which is the one that confirms you're a playoff team and you don't have to even play in for it. But they're all bunched up with Atlanta or with Charlotte and Brooklyn and Toronto as kind of slipped up this last week and a half. They've lost three or five.

So they're within four at Toronto that's still kind of. kind of tough to get there. But I don't know. I think they're 100% going to be in that play-in, and it makes it for a fun play-in. But I don't really know what to make of them. There's times where I watch them, like the Bulls last night and Trey's the best player on the floor.

And it's like, man, they could be dangerous once again. And then other times you watch them, be like, what the hell's wrong with this team this year? The Hawks are frustrating. But anytime, again, like, Trey is one of those players last night, those last two minutes, Bulls, bulls down by two points. Trey drives middle of the floor with like 145 left, gets three Bulls defenders all over him. And he finds Bogdanovich in the corner to take the lead.

And they end up winning the game. And Trey, it makes countless play after play down the stretch of that game, just picking apart that bull's defense. And like he's capable of doing that. And Bogdanovich in the last couple months has been outstanding as a back court partner for him and a guy who can play without Trey as well. It wasn't his best game last night. But look at those dudes' numbers. That guy has been on an absolute tier since around early February, late January.

So, I mean, with this Hawks team, they're up and down, man. I'm not quite sure what to make of them. The one comment on my mind was Trey early in the season when he's like, It's hard to get out for the regular season after experiencing the playoffs. I wonder how much of that is a thing for the entire team, not just him speaking for himself, but I wonder if the whole team feels that or felt that at certain points, at least this entire regular season because it certainly seems like it.

I mean, I will say this. I do think that they're pretty dangerous just in terms of their best game. You got to play, you have to play your best game obviously many times in the series, But they can play very high level. They can. They can play at a high level. It's just they don't do it very often.

Can you imagine if we did get an in-season tournament? The Hots would have been one of those teams. They get blasted in December. They would have gotten blasted then. But like we could have gotten, I don't know, bucks nets in December. You know, at a moment at that moment in time. And we could have gotten Sons Bucks in the finals a repeat. the Hawks would have got a blast though at that point.

But it would have been cool to have something to play for early in the season. Maybe in December we would have seen the Hawks perk up during the in-season tournament. And that single elimination phase, maybe like the group phase, maybe they would have dominated them that. And maybe we'd be talking about them a little bit differently. I don't know. I'm just, that's just on my mind with all of these teams right now, Chris, because giving them something to play for, the quality of play down the stretch is going to be tremendous. It's been great since the deadline. It's going to be tremendous these last, you know, six weeks or so.

Trey was great last night. Last night, even if you go to just look at like the scoring leaders, it was a great like future of the league night because you have Luca, Trey, Tatum, Morant as like the top four scorers. And then Reggie Jackson. Future of the league. People say job of rants could be a piece of the league. It's actually Reggie Jackson.

Yeah. They're going to put goggles on. on the, on Jerry West, on the logo, in honor of Reggie. We do need to mention before we get out of here. Durant did make his return. It feels, feels kind of crazy that it's this far down the list and turns of things we're going to talk about today. But they lost the game.

He was great. Like every other time he plays basketball, he's great. But it mattered not. They got to figure out some stuff for sure. They got new personnel. They're all going through it through the first time. you know, he looks up and he's playing with Goran Dragach and Andre Drummond and Seth Curry. And it's like, who the hell are these guys?

Like, oh, hey, there's Bruce Brown. I recognize him. It's so weird that he's playing with a completely different lineup. Not to mention, he probably looked across and he's like, who the F are we playing? I know Bam out of Bio, but the starting lineup last night for the Heat was Bam out of Bio, Max Struce, Gabe Vincent, Omar Yard 7, and Duncan Robinson. That was the starting lineup. So I'm sure Kevin Durant was like, I don't really know these guys I'm playing with.

It's the first time I played with them. And I sure is they don't know who we're playing against. Who are these people that we're playing against? And it's also kind of crazy in that game because Miami has gotten offense from so many different guys last season. last night they get points for 20 plus points from four guys Bam with 30 who's been Bam Loki is making like a little bit of a leap on

offense the last couple weeks worth monitoring Hero 27 Caleb Martin 22 Struce you got with 21 in a starting lineup a couple days after you got a DNP this this heat team is

it's freaking good dude they're good they have a lot of guys that can beat you a lot of good talent, a lot of different combinations that they can play. Like I said, I alluded to that Dan Devion article earlier. I encourage people to read that after they turn off this podcast. It's a great read just about how the heat have played so many different guys this season and continue to win games. And like that line up you just outlined, Chris, like that's a great example of how

they're winning against the Nets, you know, with that team. Well, not to mention they were, I think they're down 16. At one point, like you got the whole Durant adrenaline rush, you know, in Brooklyn. Looks like they might just run out. Yeah. Yep. In that game. And instead, they end up, you know, losing 113 to 107.

Kind of crazy. It should be a very fun weekend. Unfortunately, the Lakers are on national TV again. But I guess if people like watching the misery of it all, The NBA needs an even more flexible schedule. I mean, you know, they got to be able to shift games like this out. Well, you know, they are eight games in a row. Seven of the last eight have been on national television and they're one and six in their next games on ABC.

Well, I guess it's against gold state tomorrow. I mean, people want to watch stuff. So, yeah, they want to watch stuff. There's nothing else in the schedule that you would flex into that. I mean, I get Philly, Philly, Miami. That's a great game. I think anything involving Steph probably does better numbers, right? Yes.

And I will say. And LeBron, of course. There is kind of, I don't even know what the word to say. Perverse, maybe is a word, but watching it and like kind of soaking in the agony and how bad it all is. I got to tell you, like, them being on national TV getting their ass kick, you know, I know people will say like, get them off a national TV. But there is a, there is a happiness that comes from that for many people. I'm not saying. That's a great point.

I'm just saying for many people. That's a great. No, I mean, it is fun to watch an entire arena, booing. And Reggie Jackson, just wearing them out. And on Saturday night, I take back what I said. I kind of forgot it was against Golden State. We could see, like, what if Steph has one of those, like, Steph nights? And, like, he is just putting it on the Lakers.

That's fun to watch. Unless you're a Lakers fan. Yeah, that's not fun. It's going to do it for today's show. What everybody to have a great weekend. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Kevin, I'll talk to you next week. I'm looking forward to it, Chris, for the Pistons fans who are angry.

We didn't talk about them. We will talk about them next week. Have a good lunch.