The Mismatch - LeBron The Center, Weirdo Thunder, and NBA Rookie Talk With J. Kyle Mann | The Void

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

Welcome to 'The Void' as Kevin O'Connor brings you deep inside the NBA with the people who know it best. KOC goes internal for today’s guest as he brings on The Ringer's J. Kyle Mann, host of 'Upside High'. They start with a rapid-fire discussion of some of the teams that played last night before looking at the Thunder's roster (01:21). Among the young and promising players on the Thunder is Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, but can he ever become THE guy (21:09)? Nicolas Claxton is one of the few big men on the Nets roster, but the guys debate if he is their most important big man (35:30). Kyle discusses what he sees in Rockets rookie Jalen Green before looking at the Bucks depth around Giannis (39:15). They next look at the Magic roster, specifically at rookie Franz Wagner (51:50). Lastly, they look at Auburn's Jabari Smith Jr. and discuss his NBA potential (59:50). Host: Kevin O'Connor Guest: J. Kyle Mann Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer Wrestling show is getting you closer to all things pro wrestling. The Masked Show with David and Kaz drops every Thursday on the feed, along with the new show hosted by pro wrestling superfan Evan Mack called MacMania. Plus, hear instant reactions to all the biggest WWE pay-per-view events with their post-paper-view shows. Check out The Ringer Wrestling Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, thank you for listening to The Boy, joining the show today to discuss teams that play Tuesday night and some of the oldest and youngest teams in the NBA is The Ringers. Kyle, man, host of Upside High with the legendary Jonathan Charks,

which is every Tuesday on the Ringer NBA show. Kyle, how are you doing today, buddy? I'm doing really good. It's good to see your face, Kev. I feel like I haven't got to see you chop it up with you in a while. And I was thinking, you know, for the void, what better way to be on Brandon to bring someone on the show that has a void inside, a dark heart like me.

I'm kidding. I'm a positive guy, but it's good to see you. Kyle, it's very good to see you as well. man, I mean, we haven't podcasted together yet this season. We haven't since probably the summer with Ringer NBA. So that's why I wanted to lead the new year, 2022 with you with the first episode of the void in the new year. So before we get to our main topic, let's go around the league with my seven notes involving teams that played on Tuesday. We'll start with the Lakers and Kings. This was a really fun game to watch last night. Horton Tucker went off for L.A., heel did for sack. Monk had 24 points.

And there were some great moments down the stretch with Monk and Fox. Two Kentucky guys, Kyle. Oh, yeah. Guarding each other at different points. Yeah. And Fox had 30. And he got to the basket against those lineups with LeBrona Center. But LeBron had 31.

And he feasted too offensively. And we saw the pros and cons of LeBron at Center, which the Lakers have been doing a lot of lately. 345 minutes total. Outscoring teams by 43 points, a plus 4.4 net rating. Anthony Davis is going to be back eventually. And in the meantime, the Lakers have found a look that's working for them. They're 20 and 19 right now. I bet they don't fall under 500 again.

Well, I mean, depending on health and things like that, yeah, the LeBron at Center thing is fascinating because you were talking about the pros and the cons. I feel like one of the big pros is just that like when you think about like the micro skills that it takes to play center on both sides of the ball, LeBron just ramps those up to 100 just because he has all those things, like the positional intelligence, the timing. How often do you have a guy who is, like, created and, like, facilitated at the level that he has, at the volume that he has, at the efficiency that he has, at the backline of your... How often can you just, like, move a guy into a minimal role like that?

Like, LeBron can play at a slower speed when he's engaged and still bring you a lot of those things. There was one sequence last night where Talen was going. And he drew two off of a ball screen and LeBron saw that it was happening. Dwight was in the dunker spot. LeBron just naturally cut to the basket. He knew what was going to happen. The defense collapsed on him the moment he touched the ball. He makes a touch pass to Dwight for a dunk.

You're getting a level of like IQ within the flow of your offense that is really hard to replicate. And that's why LeBron at Center is, I don't know. I was thinking about this. I texted you this. How fun would Malik have been? Like Malik's been playing really well the last five games. 20.8 points per game. One assist,

45.9% from three on seven and a half a temp. Seven of them, Kyle. That's pretty good. He's just a joy to watch Cook, really honestly, when he's flowing, as we've seen, he's had some legendary college games. But can you imagine Malik if he had gotten to play with like Peak LeBron, how fun that would have been?

I mean, we're about to be seeing Peak Malik Monk, too in this offense. Some of the spacing that's provided, whether it's Dwight at the five or whether it's LeBron at the five. This has just been six games, but it's six straight games of the version of Malik Monk that we hope to see in the NBA, right?

Isn't this what we hope to see when he was drafted? And it's also six straight games of the Lakers showing why they still feel they made the right choice in trading for Russell Westbrook and signing Malik Monk instead of trading for Buddy Healed. And, you know, I know, I know

Monka is one of the reasons why the Lakers aren't necessarily getting stops on defense, but they don't have Anthony Davis right now. And if AD can come back and stay healthy, they've really got something here. Like, LeBron at the five, that's a weapon. It's not supposed

to be in every game thing like it has been for them. And once 80's back at the five instead of Dwight in those lineups, like that play you described, LeBron's going to be playing more of the four. And then LeBron at center with four perimeter players, including Monk, that's going to be a weapon in those advantageous moments like a lot of other

teams do, whether it's Golden State, Brooklyn, or Houston in the past with PJ Tucker. And this is with LeBron. This is with LeBron at the five. The Lakers could shred teams when they're pulling it out in the moments that it makes sense to do instead of all the time. When we go through this thing in the regular season where, you know, we're all like, it's Lakers fans make it fun. I always joke. They're a lot like Kentucky fans. They're fun to poke. They're fun to mess with. They get real roll. up, they're dialed in on everything. Don't talk about my team, you know, that kind of thing. But, like, LeBron, we go through this every time. When it comes down to the playoffs, LeBron's almost like a, like an expert, like high-level attorney or something that is like

a master of litigation. He's just like he knows every nook and cranny of basketball. He knows he knows how to pull you into the muck because he's smarter than you are. And we even saw it with like that Sun series last year, even though the Lakers had been kind of like just a little odd all year and sort of sluggish at times. They still, when it comes down to it, you're going to have to, well, the key thing now is just they're going to have to put together a stretch to get there, you know, to get into one of these series so that they can do it. I mean, I don't know that I'd really want to play a LeBron team in like the first round.

Like if everybody's healthy, if everything is rolling, he's just, I don't know, he's a special IQ, generational IQ, as we know. Yeah, I mean, he's absolutely amazing and he continues to add layers. like Fisdill had that rant recently saying LeBron played 40 minutes at center you guys don't realize what you see with his greatness. I mean in year 19 doing this it blows my mind

and on the other side of that matchup last night was the Kings who could be in year 16 of not making the playoffs but last night Deerrant Fox really was on the attack went downhill a lot and I mean I'm on the record saying that I'd love to see Tyrese Hallibur

and be the number one for Sacramento after the recent stretch that he had, where Fox was out and Halliburton was averaging 24 points, 11 assists he was outstanding. But Fox, in last night's game, with his 30 points, I was thinking to myself, this is some like fire and ice type of thing. You know, Fox can bring the speed and the matchups where you need speed. Halliburton can bring that finesse in the matchups where you need finesse. And that was just my overall thought watching last science game. What do you think about that, Kyle? I think that's spot on. I think it's as needed. You adjust it as needed.

Like last night in the second quarter, Fox, like, well, they were staggering it. It's like you can even kind of get a little bit of both. You keep, like, say, 60-ish percent, like you start with Halliburton. That's our half-court offense because if you're a transition defendant team, you're going to, like, dependent team, you're going to run up against a wall at some point where a team's going to take you out of transition. And there's so many things that you have to depend on to feed into transition for that to work. You really need to have a half-court offense to go the distance in the NBA.

The bucks adjusted and crossed that threshold last year. But I think it's smart to stagger it where it's like, okay, well, this is a situation where in the first quarter last night, they staggered the lineups where Fox came in and just racked up a bunch of transition buckets because the matchups were good. And they can kind of do that as needed. And then, you know, in the situations in the half court, you catch him on switches. You just put Fox in open space. You don't put him in situations that over extend his ability. you know and I think that like Halliburton's a good match for him

I'm curious where are you on like the Davion thing at this point because I was watching that game last night and I had some thoughts did you notice anything in particular I'm not like waiting for a specific answer but what do you think about Davyon what did you see out of him last night I mean you have to give Davy on Mitchell time it's been such an up and down season

for him with some horrific offensive performances and then some pretty good offensive performances and I think with the defense for him being undersized does perhaps put a cap on what he can be defensively, but he's still an energizer on that end of the floor, still a guy who can make an impact defensively. And over the course of time for Sacramento, I still would like to see them flip one of these guys.

And Fox being the one who probably has the most trade value because he can get the most back that makes sense. But with that said, I wouldn't feel good about trading Fox unless Mitchell continues showing more consistently. Those guys are the same age. I was going to say, we can't give Mitchell too much. time because he's going to be 26 years old here shortly. But yeah, I just kind of noticed at times the size thing was noticeable.

Like he's going to have to be pretty plus plus defensively to overcome that at times because you're going to run into situations where he just was getting swallowed up in the half court. I mean, the Lakers can throw some big lineups out there, but there were there were times where the ball would get skipped to him and he would, it would perceivably be an open shot for somebody like for a normal size wing or, you know, but he just, that's a. that was something that I was kind of noticing for him. And like, you're right. It's up and down.

But yeah, it's... I worry about the shot, too. I mean, you mentioned inside. How about the jump shot? He's shooting 31% from three this year, 67% from the free throw line. Last year, his junior season at Baylor, he was great.

He shot 45% from three. But first year at Auburn in 2017, 18, only 29% from three. 2019, 20 at Baylor, 32% from three. Last season might have been an outlier. year for him as a three-point shooter because the free throw percentage has always been sub-70 percent. Everything else the touch, I'm not sure, is there for him. Last year could have been an

outlier. That's where my concern is, too, on the perimeter. He needs to have that shot, and he needs to have the defensive impact he mentioned. Oh, yeah. If you're going to be that small, you're going to have to add some kind of, and you're going to have to have some kind of plus that you add somewhere so you can compensate and be kept on the floor. But you're right, it's like, do we, who is he? It's kind of the Randall thing. It's like, how do we, how do we gauge this odd spike in its sample? It's kind of that Tame and Pala thing. Julius Randalli thing. It's like, it's like Tame and Pala thing. Do people actually change or is that bullshit? Yeah, there you go, Kep. I don't know. I don't know. Is it going to hold for Davian? I'm going to be curious to see. It's kind of bledso. It's feeling a

little Bledso-esque. That was Charks's comparison for, for Dave Yon coming in, like how he impacts the game. So the shooting, the shooting's going to be something to watch for sure. The Raptors beat the Spurs 129 to 104. Fred Van Bleet was an absolute maniac in that game, 33 points. He had seven threes, had seven assists to zero turnovers. Van Bleet's one of those guys who, even though he's a much different type of player than Fox, he generally just underlines the critical importance of playing with and without the ball. I wanted to ask you about another guy on Toronto though, and that's OG and An Anobi. He didn't have a good scoring night, only 14 points on 14 shots, but this season he is averaging

in career highs and points per game at 19 and most of his counting stats too. However, he has career lows and scoring efficiency. So I'm wondering, do you feel that we're witnessing the limits of OG's game or is this just the beginning of his development as an on-ball score? I mean, but he's grown year over year.

The more he's been trusted, he has yet to sort of fail to grow once he's been given more trust, once he's had more trust put into him as a player. So I think that the jury is out on that still a little bit. That's a really good point. Every time he's empowered, he gets better. And I look for that because sometimes you'll see players,

and I don't think that his efficiency has taken like a dive. I mean, like in terms of like just to my eyes, I'm not seeing anything because the sample hasn't been, you know, totally consistent. So that's kind of where I am on that. I'm not ready to, I'm not ready to jump off a cliff with that. But I love OG. I think that I think I'd continue to kind of put the reps on him and just see where it goes.

Agreed, man. You got to keep feet. eating OG. And, you know, if Scotty Barnes at some point, as you hope, turns into a star and he's demanding more touches. And if OG needs to take less on-ball reps than that future, then we know he can do that already. We know he can do it. And right now we're showing that he can do a little bit more than maybe people expected. Next, I want to ask you about the Pacers who lost the Knicks last night. RJ Barrett and Julius Randall actually looked like guys Knicks fans have been hoping for all season after some of their struggles. But for Indiana,

they've just been consistently not good. I reported on Monday that in return for DeMontas Sabonis or Miles Turner, the Pacers prefer to find a player who can help them now rather than a picks-based package. Is that the right approach? Indiana never seems to go along with what I think they should do, to be honest, because they're just that team... You want them to blow it up. I want them to...

They never have that willingness to just be bad, and I think at some point you have to cross that threshold of being bad. Sometimes you just got to be bad. I think that I just called myself saying that it's like kinky NBA I know

I think that's anyway dreading the photoshop's for that one so I just think Indiana is in they're in that smaller market they don't want to be

epically terrible they've always they've had a history of just like fielding teams that are okay to pretty good that's historically what they've been

so I don't expect them to change their philosophy And now that you have Rick Carlisle, who is like, especially impatient with like young players who aren't ready to go, I don't love that approach, but they clearly top to bottom have philosophically, you know, entrenched feelings on that. So I would rather see them just go ahead and start over because they have so many players I've made this point. They have so many players that make sense. But for some reason, when you look at it as a whole, it's like, why, why is this not right? It's kind of, it's kind of, of like, you remember when they made like, it was, I think it was the movie, it was a Cormic McCarthy movie they made right after No Country for Old Men that had like a great cast. It had like Javier Bardem and all these stars in it, but it was like, this doesn't work. Why doesn't this work? I don't know.

It's kind of like that. It's, that's kind of how I feel about the Pacers. They're just kind of bi. And I'd like to see them make some big moves, mainly just because I'd like to see some of their players in other places. The Suns beat the Pelicans 123 to 110 last night. Huge Devin Booker performance, 33 points. 24 shots. I have a video coming out about him on the Ringer's YouTube page on Thursday,

talking about his improved three-pointer. But today I wanted to ask you about one of their younger guys, Jalen Smith. The problem for me, like the unobjective thing that I have going on here is that I'm a Jalen Smith receipt holder. So I've kind of been clutching that that ticket for a while. Hold on to your receipts. And I think Jalen is a guy that I really, really liked coming out of Maryland. And I thought that he was a guy who could stretch the floor, give you some switchability. I mean, he absolutely baptized. I guess it wasn't Mason Plumlin. Is that who he dunked on? Dude, that dunk on Pulley from Sunday was so nasty. And you're right about Smith at Maryland. There are, I really believe there are more dimensions to his game as a shooter that we've yet to see.

And granted, it's just, you know, flashes from him now. The fact that's happening for a contender in the Phoenix Suns, that matters. a lot when we're talking about what they could potentially be too. The glimpses are nice, and it's a similar thing that the bucks are going through, where if you're a contender and you can get these glimpses from guys that might be able to give you a little shot in the arm when you need it, you know, we were talking about, he gives you some line of versatility maybe down the road that you could explore. It's early, but I've liked what I've seen.

As a Jalen Smith stockholder, I was kind of ready to keep that one in the drawer and just pretend it never happened, but he's made me, I've gotten it back. out and I'm kind of looking at it and admiring it again. I'm pleased. So were you high on Jalen Smith coming out of the draft? I liked him. Yeah, I like Jalen Smith. I think with him, I always loved his ability to shoot off a screens. You know, 610 would size, ability to come off a pin down screen and turn and shoot a mid-range jump shot. You project that forward. I don't know. Like the pick made sense to me. So it did come as a surprise. Granted, it was for financial reasons that they declined it. They shouldn't have done that. And it was a mistake doing that.

Last game from Tuesday night was the Grizzlies and the Cavs. We saw the Grizz take out the calves. And the second night of a back-to-back, impressive win for them, Kyle. They're at fourth place in the West still. Factoring in play only for this season, nothing from the past. Where does this John Moran, Desmond Bain backcourt rank in the NBA? How high are they together? Oh, I feel like you know the answer.

You have an answer to this. How do you have them? I feel like there's so many good guards in the league. how could I do you have do you have an idea in your mind? I think they're probably maybe the fifth best back court duo fifth okay so far this season

something like that you got to consider of course Chris Paul Devin Booker right you can't say Kyrie and Harden because Kyrie is just making his debut on Wednesday night you can say Steph and whoever

that's what you can't say Stefan Clay that's some power right there yeah step and whoever I mean I'd give Morant Bain the slight edge over Dame and CJ so far the season. CJ has missed a lot of time. Chris Paul and Devin Booker,

they've been better. Conley and Mitchell, they've been better. I mean, are they like the third or fourth best backcourt duo this is so far in the season? Like, that's high praise. I mean, granted, there's been a lot of guys out. I mean, DeRosen, Levine, you get them as well. And I throw Lanzo in there. It's like a three

guard look, really. Even in Caruso, they have like a, they have like a swarm of guys. Yeah. But bottom line, though, you know, top five-ish. That says a lot for Memphis in the position they're in. I don't think it's, I don't think that's crazy.

I mean, and a lot of that I think is, I mean, Morant has grown quite a bit. And a lot of that is just people underestimated Desmond Bain. I think we knew it. Many were shouting.

That's what, that's what I've kept saying about Bain. There was like, there was a huge hive of people who were really into Bain. And I'll never understand him falling the way that he did. Just because of he fits the modern mold of like a guy that can check. He, he solidly build.

He had like unbelievable shot mechanics and he could power up for anywhere and shoot with efficiency. And then like in the summer league we saw, I was texting with your guy Verno about this that like he was showing the glimpses of playmaking in the pick and roll. And if he can operate on ball and shoot like dribble pull-ups and stuff, then you have an interchangeable backcourt, which is what you want.

Interchangeability, baby. Speaking about interchangeability, baby, Evan Mobley, I said a couple weeks ago on this pod that he's like a Gen Z, Tim Duncan. My question for you, Kyle, is, is he more of a Gen Z Tim Duncan or a Gen Z Kevin Garnett? I would lean he's more of a garnettie type. I've talked about this on a couple different pods, but I mean, he is that type of like ultra-switchable, very elastic in his like flexibility, head to toe, like totally elasticity for how big he is. And, you know, as a lot of guys get bigger, they lose some of that coordination, they lose some of that, like, horizontal, like, core strength and, and, you know,

and twitchiness. And he is one of those touched by the hands of the basketball gods. He's gifted. I would lean towards Garnett. And, dude, what an incredible rarefied air to be like, I don't know, man. It's kind of like, it's like, do I want to drive my McLaren? Is this more of a McLaren day or is this more of a like Bugatti day? I don't know.

You know, it's just kind of, should I go by private jet or by helicopter? It's like he is a special, special player. On upside highway charts, you guys focused on a lot of the young teams and players in the league plus the draft. And today on the board, I want to alternate go between one young team and one old team. And let's start with a young team, the Oklahoma City Thunder. You made an outstanding video and then last month titled The Weirdos of OKC, Josh Giddy and Shaggillis Alexander, other funkiest duo in the NBA. The last time we saw OKC's play on Sunday, Giddy became the youngest player. an NBA history Kyle to log a triple double.

He had 17 points, 14 assists, 13 rebounds. He shot three of five from three. He had only three turnovers, plus he had four steals. I thought that performance was a flash of what he could become on a more regular basis that the scoring actually develops for him in this weird OKC thing that they're building out. I think this was always in the cards for him in terms of like how he profiles as a player that he was going to be one of those. There's that word again, weirdo triple double type players that, you know, non-like shooting dominant players who add value, who have size.

I think what's really impressed me in the past month, you know, I watched him a lot the month before that, the month before that when I was making that video, is his confidence has been really, really blossoming, I think, in the past, like, month and a half, two months. He's getting more comfortable. I think his, like, grasp on the speed of the NBA game and the coverages and the, things like that is accelerating. He's obviously a really high IQ player. The scoring was the question about him coming into the draft. It was the thing that I've said that it's kind of a cruel irony when you have somebody who's as much of a playmaking talent as he is that can't shoot it

consistently. I mean, right now on the season, 27% on all jumpers, his pick and roll efficiency is really, really low. His half-court efficiency is really, really low. It's because of that. And, yeah, I mean, I've been impressed. I was too low on him. I think you were higher on him than I was. I couldn't get over those concerns. Yeah, but I'm feeling a lot better about him now. Yeah, and I mean, even though he had that one great game scoring the ball on the perimeter,

like you said, not shooting the ball well at all this season, and the free throw percentage at 65% for him, typically free throw percentage being a stronger indicator of future three-point shooting success. The part that's so funky about him, though, is that mid-range game. I mean, he can pick apart defenses. He has the floater. He does have soft touch with a floater. That seems to be at least one positive indicator working in his favor.

But when I think about OKC, you had a comment in your video. You said, you often see wings add facilitator skills as they grow. But these two, referencing Gideon's Cheyildes Alexander, are both natural lead guards who happen to be wing-sized. And your comment there relates to a thought I've had about OKC. Sam Presti, if he wants to, he could build this roster out. So Gildes Alexander at 6.6 is often the shortest guy on the court at all times. Because with Giddy, you have someone bigger than that. With SGA, you have a big playmaking guard.

So from trading for SGA with the Paul George deal to drafting someone like Pocco, a risky guy, and then taking Giddy, I can't help but wonder if this is exactly what Presti's angling for is he builds this thing out into the near future with a team that's just big across all positions. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, they can throw some really big lineups out there. I think what you are going to run into as you continue to build this group is I think you're going to need to continue to add shooting and playmaking at like the three, four, five spots. Ideally, you can add like above average shooting and playmaking. I don't know where they're going to get that from. I mean, you'd like to get like a star level player, ideally. I don't know that they're going to be able to import one of those. And I'm just talking about like optimizing them to the point of like building. like a playoff level winning team. But the synergy between those two, I mean, in the past, I had it written down here. And I checked back in on their net rating and their two-man lineups.

And in the past six games, their net rating is almost 10 points higher together. So Shea and Giddy's like synergy together seems to be something they've caught on to something. Something is working here. I'm just curious, I guess coming up in the draft, they're going to have a chance to build that. Do you agree or disagree with me in terms of like roster building there? Like what do you think they need to be adding as they go forward with these two guys? 100% Kyle. I mean, I think when you're building out this Oklahoma City roster,

you have to find shooting somewhere because even if Giddy becomes the best version of himself as a shooter, he isn't likely going to be some knock down three point shooter off the dribble or even a knock down guy off the catch from three. You're hoping that he's above average and that the playmaking is what is really, his elite skill. That's what you're hoping for with Giddy. Even with Gildes Alexander, I mean, his game is more downhill rather than from the perimeter. So adding shooting in some capacity, whether it's through the draft or whether it's through

some trades with all the draft picks that they have, 15 first rounders over the next seven years, 15 second round picks, including all their own. I mean, this team here, they do need that star level player, which leads me to my next question for you here. Is Gilges Alexander a face of the franchise? Is he your number one, or does he project more as your number two in the totem pole and a big three? As much as I love him, Shea has been one of my favorite players for a long time. I had a front row seat to watch his development in college, like I've talked about numerous times.

I'm kind of wondering if, you know, I don't, I kind of like my superstar level players to have that like immense scoring production, but also immense, like, what I call gravity flipping, which is just the ability to punish the defense with their scoring too. Maybe he'll get to that point. You know, score first players often, like we said, since he's a lead guard in that scoring template, you'd imagine that his playmaking development is going to follow like a similar path. Now, Shea's not a bad pass, or it's just at this point,

his downhill thread is so lethal. I was making the point to you that I said it in the video that at the time he and John Morant we're like neck at neck in terms of like driving production in the league across the board. And Shay actually is like leading, he's like grown his league since I made that point in the video. He's leading the league and drives per game and leading the league and drive points for game. I guess the thing is I'm leaning towards him being like a number two on that level team, maybe even a number three. But I don't, you know, your initial reaction is that you're, saying maybe OKC fans agree with me, maybe they don't.

But they, your initial reaction is that that's a negative thing, that I'm like putting a cap on his ceiling, what he is as a player. I don't think that it is because if you think about a championship level team, how good the players are at that level, I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I think that for him as a shooter, he's going to need to grow too. He and Giddy are going to need to grow together. But I've been really impressed with Shea's growth. I made a point in the video about like what type of pace.

His pace has always been one of the more fascinating things about him to me, that he can get to any spot on the floor that he wants. His turnaround game in the mid-range is getting a whole lot better. Like he can create his own shot. He can get to the rim. But to answer your question, I mean, I would lean towards him being like a probably more of a third guy on like a title team. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think second or third. I mean, if you have Chey Gilles-Alexander as a third, you're in really good shape. I mean, because he's turned himself into a sensational young player in the NBA. I mean, with him, the ability to get downhill, get to the basket, despite not having ideal spacing around him, that is really appealing for me when projecting him moving forward because you think about what happens when OKC actually has three or four good shooters surrounding him on the court. how much that could even further bump his efficiency and help aid his playmaking. I mean, to me, he's, whether he's a one, two, three, regardless of how he stacks up, his adaptable skill set is going to allow him to flourish with whatever happens on the rest of this roster. And with Presti, it seems like a lot of upside picks.

SGA, we kind of knew he was on an upward trajectory when that deal happened with the clippers. With giddy, an upside pick. Poku was the biggest upside pick of all. I've been meaning to check in with you about Poku. What did you think about my feelings? I'm not doing great, Kyle. I'm not doing great, Kyle. I get some stats for you.

Let's look at his scoring efficiency on Synergy. Poku on spot-ups. He's in the seventh percentile, according to Synergy Sports. The ninth percentile for transition. The second percentile for pick and roll. The seventh percentile for handoffs. The 26th percentile for isolations in the 79th percentile on cuts. We know he can cut to the rim.

Oh, baby. He's got those long arms. He can cut high basketball. Springs Eternal. But everything else in year two, Kyle, has not been good for Poku. And with all that said, though, he's only 19 years old. And we knew he would be a raw project coming in. Have we seen enough flashes and good positive moments from Alexei Pokushchevsky

to feel any level of confidence that he can become a not star, but a good NBA player? My expectations are going lower all the time. I always use this metaphor from the Simpsons where they had that ride, the Enron ride of Broken Dreams, where they just show the people, the investors being like, oh, we're going to be rich.

Oh, we're going to break even. That's kind of where we're just going down. We keep going lower and lower. I mean, it's kind of a confusing thing because it makes you wonder if he told, he'll show you flashes that are really, really impressive in terms of like his passing, his reads, and he'll just make those things

that his size look so effortless that you get sucked in. I don't think it's a hipster thing. I talk to a bunch of people who are like hardcore basketball people who are like, he's showing these flashes. But whenever he's this erratic and this inconsistent, you just start to think, does he actually understand what's happening during those flashes? Or is it just a case of the fan oscillating and blowing on you? at the right moment and it's like all the rest of the time you know what i mean it's just like uh the sun is shining uh in the same spot twice a day kind of a thing i i just if the shooting was like super consistent and we had like some through lines to kind of grab onto i would feel a little bit better um

but you know he's he's he's a pretty contact averse player at this point around the basket his touch is pretty good um i just kind of don't know what he is he falls asleep on defense like a whole whole lot. I know he's a teenager. I'm not in a great spot with it either. We really need this to pan out so Bill will stop teasing us about it because this is one of his favorite things to tease you and I about, I feel like. But I'm just crossed my fingers for him. Just because I like watching him play when he has it going. I mean,

he's just an impressive. He's an impressive. He had that play the other night where he missed a breakaway dunk and then he stole the ball on defense and dunked at the next try. It's like, what is he? You know, perfect picture of Poku. And I mean, there's some guys on this O.KC roster. There's a lot of guys we don't know what they're going to end up being. There are some guys that we feel like some level of confidence in what they are.

I mean, I see a lot of guys in this O'KC roster, despite the fact that they're near the bottom of the league and record. Kenny Hustle Williams, such a good two-way role play already. Jeremiah Robinson Earl, borderline, second team, all rookie guy so far this season. And then Lou Dort, I mean, Lou Dort, one of the best point of attack defenders in the whole NBA. And in this season, he's averaging over 16 points, but he's making under 50% of his two-pointers,

shooting only 31% from three. I mean, I'm not sure how much faith I have in him to become an efficient offensive player. But when I look at OKC right now, I'm intrigued because I mentioned these guys who could help a contending team now, whether it's Dort, Robinson Earl, Kenny Hustle, the Thunder have all their future first round picks.

And there's some young guys available in the market right now, Kyle. You get Subonis and Turner with Indiana, maybe Fox with Sacramento, Ben Simmons with Philadelphia. Is it wise at all for OKC to consolidate some of their youth and picks for any of those players that might be out there on the market right now? Of the ones you mentioned, none of them raise my eyebrow,

mainly because of- Get them back, bring them back. I think if you do Sub-Bonis, what I'm looking for is like balance scoring, scoring, playmaking, if I can get it, and spacing, because at that point you have to start having conversations about who can we actually keep going forward. Like, I know they like Dort.

They like the idea of his point of attack pressure, but on a great team, can you have shooting at the level of Gideon Shay with Dort? Like, you know what I mean? I think at some point you would have to consider. How about Turner then? Turner instead? I like, he's a better three-point shooter than Sabona, still in like 36% for his career since I think

third season. Turner, Turner is a guy that I've, I've thought about with Charlotte. I've thought about him with OKC. I've actually thought about, even like a, if they could get a hold of like a PJ Washington, just somebody that can play some small ball five that can maybe hit open shots potentially. But of course, that's not really working for him as well in Charlotte either. I actually had one, I don't know how we could make it work, but I feel like Bamba would be really interesting in OKC. I've kept floating this. If you think I know, I'm bringing this up to you specifically, just because I imagine him on paper with like the length of, you imagine the link that they can put on the floor and then you could throw him out there.

I just wonder if it would be a better situation for him just in terms of fit. I'm into it. I'm into Bamba with this OKC group. That this is something I want to see happen now that, now that you've mentioned that, Kyle. I like it. Let's talk about a team that did make their big moves already to acquire stars. That's the Brooklyn Nets.

Kyrie Irving, we back tonight against the Pacers. Joe Harris, still out for the team, but he's really the only guy missing for the Nets at the moment. But I wanted to ask you, Kyle, about another guy on the Nets. That's Nicholas Claxton. I am absolutely infatuated with his game, especially his versatility on defense. Going back to last season, there's been 51 players defending the screener

and the pick and roll that have switched at least 200 times, according to the second spectrum. Claxton has done it six and a half times per game. That's the second most often behind BAM at a bio. And when he does switch, the Nets are number one. and points allowed at 0.77 points per chance. He's a switching machine on defense and on offense. He's finishing around the rim better than ever this season.

He's added some muscle. He's bulkier. I feel like Claxton is Brooklyn's most important big. Do you agree with me? I mean, all the things that you said are really true. He's kind of a perfect fit to play with, if you can get these kind of high efficiency players who are switchable, who can elevate the defensive presence of their big.

three, let's say hypothetically they have their big three whenever, you know, whenever it comes nut cutting time. I think that he is an incredible fit for them, an incredible asset. And, you know, he's a really clever cutter. If you just think about and you watch him, and this goes back to like early when he was at Georgia, I remember there was one of the first times I ever saw Claxton play, he like came out and switched on to the point guard and he got like deep into a stance. And my eyes just got big. I was like, what the hell? hell. And he was like totally an unrefined thing, but at this point it's been really kind of a blessing for him that he's gotten to develop next to stars, I think, because it's sort of like pushed him into this role that early on is going to allow him to flourish. Now, I think that he's going to be an insanely valuable piece for them because he's going to give them defensive versatility in the playoffs. Like I said, he's a crazy good cutter. He's a good finisher around the rim. He's a lob threat. He's just sort of a more versatile kind of, version of DeAndre Jordan

sort of like early DeAndre Jordan you know like of course I'm thinking like the lefty thing here but yeah I mean he's an incredible asset for Brooklyn the one flaw is his rebounding that's it that's the one flaw that he has he got pounded on the boards by the Grizzlies in their Monday night game

Stephen Adams was just absolutely unbelievable but rebounding's always been a problem for Brooklyn even going back the last season and you know it did hurt them in the playoffs Claxton's role this time around in the playoffs will be critical considering some of the potential matchups that they're going to have.

And, you know, everything you said there, Kyle, since you mentioned Georgia, one of the thoughts on my mind is I wonder when Kyrie or Hardin are going to face some switches or pressure in the pick and roll. If we're going to see playmaking chances for Claxton, which is something he did a lot of at Georgia. His composure in the short role,

I think, is going to be conducive to him being a short role creator in the future. because, you know, when it comes playoff time and, like, the defensive kind of schemes ramp up and things like that. Maybe he's not going to have this as much. Right now, he's kind of getting to the rim a little bit easier.

So he's not being in these positions where he's being met by the backline defender, like him being forced to make that pass. I think that the playmaking potential is there, like you said, and I think Brooklyn's a good situation for him again. Let's discuss the team the Nets acquired James Hardin from, the Houston Rockets. Their new potential star is Jalen Green, who got off to a slow start this season

before hamstring injury in November. Since returning, Kyle, Jalen Green averaging over 20 points, making about 50% of his eight three-point attempts per game. How have we seen Jalen Green progress over the course of this young season despite the time that he missed? You're right.

I mean, he's come back in his last three games and he's just been shot out of a cannon, like 23 points per game, 2.3 assists. I think for him, it's just, this was always going to be a little clunky. always going to be a little bumpy because of his, because of his sort of playmaking growth that needs to happen. You know, he's, he's sort of a scoring guard and, like, a lead guard's body.

I think that he's going to need to be optimized going forward. That's why the, like, the Kevin Porter fit next to him was always going to be a little weird, because Porter's one of the most, like, inefficient, high usage pick and roll players in the league, 0.68 points for possession, really high turnover rate, really inconsistent shooter. Helps you lose games. Helps you lose games, Kyle. Literally what I have written down.

I was like, if you want a tank, that's the parent player you want. So maybe, the truth is, that's why Presti drafted poker just so they could lose some more games the next couple years. It's all part of the planet.

You don't want to be too good. Yeah, yeah. You don't want to, you don't want to fight to be over too fast. We want to get a bunch of mileage out of this. No, I think that for Green, this is kind of the way it was going to go, in my opinion. And you're seeing the flashes.

I mean, his wiggle off the dribble in transition is just unbelievable. I was watching a play just last night where he was like basically knifing through like three defenders in transition. He's a real talent. I think that it's going to take time for him to be, you know, these like scoring guards who are in like lead guard bodies, like I was saying, they just need to be optimized over time because the playmaking is not quite there right now. So that's just kind of that that's the way it is.

Honestly, it's a work and progress. It's a cake that's going to bake for a while. When I watch Jalen Green play, I mean, he's on fire from three right now. He's been historically going back to high school 80 plus percent from the free throw line. He has good touch inside. When that three point shot is on, it changes absolutely everything for him.

If he's able to become the type of player who is a threat and pick and rolls that causes defenses to have to, you know, if they're dropping, like the other night when we watched the Utah Jazz against the Warriors, Rudy O'Barre instead of dropping into the paint, had to step up near the three-point line to respect Steph Curry. And that causes the rest of the defense to have to rotate. Jalen Green may not never reach obviously a step level. Nobody will. But if he can at least be a guy who causes that defender to step up and respect him, that's going to open up a world of options for him, whether it's playmaking development, with that short roll pass, or whether it's just simply driving to the basket because, I mean, already, he's so good at gliding and weaving his way into

the pain. He had one play against the Nuggets the other night where he patiently used a Daniel Tice screen, then a re-screen, and then he hesitated to kind of like make Nicole Yokic pause before going into like a slick left-hand finish off of his left foot. And it's like, dude, this kid's, you know, it is 20th game. And he has nice feel using Hesies. And he has the athleticism, and he potentially has the shot to turn him into something. But I don't feel like you're as high on him as maybe I am, just hearing you speak about him. Is it maybe his size that you're concerned about? Or is it maybe the lack of natural playmaking ability that maybe doesn't have you as high on him?

I've been up and down on him over the past couple of years. I think I came up a little bit once I really studied him and started to kind of see what he would be. Because in my mind, I was just like, okay, if he's going to insist on being, like a volume score, but the efficiency's maybe not going to quite get there. Maybe I'm not getting the playmaking that I would want. Like the shooting lately has been really good. Like you were saying eight on eight three-point attempts per game on the past three games. And he's getting to the line more.

That's another thing. I think I would just like to see for the players in his mold that have succeeded, you know, you look at the templates of players who have succeeded in the past, like the Beals, even the bookers. I don't think he's as much of a natural shooter as either one of those guys. some of that like dribble shot creation in the mid range is important. And I think that physicality does play a role in that. Both of those guys have big frames.

And he's sort of a, he's kind of like a gorilla like bucket getter type guy, get in the middle. You can kind of see him in the tape I was watching recently. You know, he's getting to the lane, getting to the line. Natural like true fives in the NBA were giving him a little bit of trouble around the rim. Like he's an incredible angular, like elastic finisher around the bucket. I've always just kind of had a little bit of hesitation to say, to commit myself to saying this guy's a full-blown superstar because of like the conditions around how you're going to be able to use him on a roster. That's always my hesitation. For me, like the top level superstars in the league are like guys that are contexts.

Like when they go to a team, things plug into them. They are going to get their offense and they are going to be able to create offense for other people. I think that he's more in that level of like a conditional player that needs to, you know, he's not like the center of a universe. And that's always been my hesitation. And if the efficiency gets there, that's another question. I think that's probably like the reticence you're hearing in my voice whenever I talk about him, honestly.

It'll be interesting to see if Houston does make him the center of the universe. Because right now with this roster, I'm not sure how many of these pieces are going to be there for that second deal for Jalen Green. Like on Saturday, of course, there was the incident. John Lucas called out the team at halftime for their effort. they singled out Kevin Porter Jr. and Christian Wood. They were suspended on Monday for a game. Kevin Porter Jr., replaceable player. Christian Wood, pretty good. Somebody that I would consider moving off of. If I were Houston, I think you can get something for him. He's another type of guy,

like we talked about it, with OKC with their players. He could help a contender now. Let's say Houston gets a top three pick, and you are building this thing out. We're talking about Jalen Green. We haven't talked a lot about Alperin Shengoon, who's been pretty good for them. Is Chet Holmgren? Probably the best fit for this Rockets roster with Green and Shengoon if you're considering the top prospects?

I like the idea of that. I mean, that's a pretty skinny team. I like... That's really skinny. It is. And I think that you can... The interesting thing there that, well, what clicks into place with my mind there is that you could get

an elbow action like screener playmaker, passer type, like in Shingoon, you could, well, my point is that you could probably

play Shingun and Chet together, I would imagine. I think so. Yeah. That's interesting to figure out. And think about, I mean,

right now, Chet, I don't have it's like three-point shooting. I'm in a mid-eat 70% true shooting, which is pretty good. I like that.

Then you're surrounding spacing and shooting around, around green. I think you're right about Christian Wood. I mean, the move that makes the most sense is to, like, find a team that's kind of on the threshold and that could, like, really be bumped up by adding, like, a defender like Christian Wood and a stretch player like Christian Wood. Chet makes sense to me. I mean, if you can get a hold of Palo, that's interesting, too.

Jabari is another guy that I know we're going to talk about here in a minute. But I think the spacing playmaking, the problem is just that we do this all the time. We're just like, what does this NBA team need? Okay, spacing, playmaking. It's the most valuable thing. said that in the OKC video. It's just like, okay, what do we need? We need this thing that everybody wants. And it's just like, how do you get it? You got it. When you get the chance to get it, you can't screw it up. Let's talk about an older team now. The Bucks face the Raptors on Wednesday

night. And they're one of those teams that did figure out their front court pairing. So you could look at, you know, everybody they have. Brooke Lopez is out right now. But his spacing, the room protection that he provides next to Yannis. Bobby Portis getting him last season, he has been outstanding even better this year, even giving Boogie bringing him back, DeMarcus cousins giving him a chance. I was going to say, Kev, you listed to me the people on the bucks that you were interested in talking about the guys that have stepped up and you didn't list Boogie, and I took it personally.

I did list him. He's been good. I wanted to give you a happy surprise, Kyle. Yeah, I'm one of the most. The Bucks have figured it out. Yeah. I'm the mayor of Boogie Island for sure. I mean, in the beginning, he was like just an absolute shit show.

it was like, he's like just falling down. Like he's airball in threes. It was ugly. But you're right. You're right. I mean, this is for the, for the bucks, I think that this is interesting because, you know, COVID is not good on any level. But this like time where they've had people out, you know, you'll see this happen

sometimes. If somebody goes out for a certain amount of time, you don't have any options. So your team gets pushed into this situation where you're having to try things that you wouldn't have otherwise tried if you had everything available to you. Some of these guys are getting more run, and it could end up paying dividends. You know, like, I know, like, Grace and Allen's come in, and he started a ton of games this year. I think the bulk of the games this year. He's in their most efficient lineup.

Essentially, he's taking Devin Chino's place, would you say, in the short term, until he gets back? Devin Chanzo has really struggled since he got back from Andrew. That's, that's, that's Grace and Allen's job now. Yeah, which is a shame. I really love DeVinchenzo as a player. But, I mean, this is a good opportunity for Grace. because he's been a near 40% three-point shooter. If you're somebody that's, and he's gotten to the point where he's basically like a neutral,

like what he gives, what he takes, player. And if he can make open threes, those are the type of players that have their value elevated next to a player like Janus. And I just think for the Bucks, it could end up being a good thing later on that some of these guys have gotten an opportunity that they might not have gotten otherwise. I can't get over the fact that Grayson Allen, Pat Connetton, and Dante DiVincenzo, all three of them combined for less salary than Joe Harris with Brooklyn and Duncan Robinson and Miami.

And not that any of them individually are better than Harris or Robinson, but the fact that they have so many options in that shooting guard role, a spacer who's bringing an injury, kind of a connector within the offense, making the right pass, playing within the flow around Janus. I mean, they've really, they've made some mistakes over the years. Like, you could argue, you know, choosing Eric Bledso over Malcolm Brogden. was a mistake, but it all worked out. It leads to Drew Holiday. They're in this situation now where they have so many options on their roster. Really, the one thing Milwaukee's probably

missing is that guy for the PJ Tucker role last season. That's really the one thing I feel like Milwaukee's missing. But other than that, I mean, this team checks all the boxes for what you need to potentially repeat as a champion. Yeah, and it's funny that like we give PJ a lot of credit for the way that he did tire Katie out, but Katie's still almost into the the series if his toe has been. So that just gives you an idea of what KD is. Exactly. Exactly.

But I mean, another, yeah, Jordan Wara is the other guy that we were talking about. That was another player. Interesting coming out of the draft. I think on the 2020 draft show, we had kind of, I think Charks and I both pegged him as like maybe a potential value

play somewhere. It's been a long game. You know, he's kind of, he's got that like Kevin Martin, like straight arm. Do you remember Kevin Martin? like straight arm shot. Yeah, yeah, I feel that. Yeah. But he's, he's somebody that's getting more reps on ball.

It's, he had a big night the other night. I think he had like 28 points. 28 against Cleveland, 23 against New Orleans. He's had some, he's had some big games of this, the opportunities the last couple weeks. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, uh, the bucks have, you, you would think, you know, you're year two that the, the buck, the bucks maybe got over the hump and, you know, okay, that cathartic, like release. we can maybe relax a little bit.

I don't, the Bucks have that like redemption. They still have something to prove, you know, because there are definitely people out there who are still like, yeah, the Bucks won. You know, they're not everybody was full strength. They're the rare like repeat title team that has like something really to prove, you know, because if they have a healthy field in front of them to conquer, they have more kind of, that gives them a little more juice.

I just think that's pretty interesting. Yeah. I mean, with Yannis, who is arguably the MVP so far the season, one of the number of worthy candidates, you always have a shot. Let's move on to another young team. The Orlando Magic, they play Wednesday night against the Sixers. Specifically, I want to get it to Franz Wagner, a guy you've discussed on an upside high with charts. He'd be third on my rookie of the year ballot today, averaging 16 points, five rebounds,

three assists in the season, closer to 20 points over the last 10 or so games. With Wagner, Kyle, how have we seen him progress over the course of the season? and what level do you project him for moving forward? Because with the improvement of his jump shot going back to college, that's a potential game changer for him, but he's also shown a lot of playmaking ability as well for Orlando. Those two things are huge. Those two things are huge.

I think you're right. That was sort of a question with him. I mean, he's basically like a player who's built like a stretch four who has switchability, who has some playing, who's showing some playmaking. When you start just kind of going down the line and like sprinkling some fertilizer on those plants, it's just going further down the line than I expected and earlier than I expected.

Like you were talking about last five, he's been shooting 47% from three, 21 points per game, four rebounds, 1.6 assists. He brings the ball up a lot and initiates. Now, whether or not he's like actually facilitating when he brings the ball up, there are two different things, you know, whether they go into handoffs, et cetera. But Orlando is also lost all five of those games. games, which is good. That's always great when your prize prospect plays great, and we lost them all. But I think that one thing he doesn't get enough credit for us, he is a brilliant

cutter. Like if you watch Franz Wagner, he's so clever. The thing that I just can't help but think, and I know that, like, Golden State fans are beyond. So just cover your muffs for a minute. I know, like, can you just imagine, can you just imagine a cutter of that level who's switchable and can shoot threes efficiently? Can you imagine him in that Golden State office? offense. Kyle, but the next thing I had written down for our last team here, for the old teams, was that question you asked Charks last month on upside high. You asked them, has Golden State epically screwed up two drafts in a row in reference

to, of course, them taking James Wiseman over Lamello and then Jonathan Caminga over Franz Wagner. Have they epically screwed it up? Well, Charks pumped the brakes on me. He was like, let's wait, let's wait. I know, and I had some Golden State fans come to me and be like, what the hell is you talking about because Cumminga's been playing a little better lately. I mean, Cuminga has looked good because Golden State has been a good situation for him, similar to Claxton. I think whenever your issues are of a certain ilk, if you are in a strong, structural kind of integrity

situation with a team, it can put you in the situation to succeed. Because what I was noticing was Cumminga a lot, when he's looked his best to me, has been coming off of like these weeks. They run this action where he's like coming off a weak side pin down and he's coming up and running a ball screen with a five on him. I mean, playing, I mean, he's a great modern five. And he's forcing like a center to fight through a ball screen and get into the rim. When he's in space in motion, I mean, he's faster than any fight. I mean, he's just, his athleticism is going to cook you. So I just think that like Golden State, once we expand his role, we might start to have like a different discussion about what he is, but absolutely on a good team with Golden State. I'm not ready to say

that they'd like screwed it up, but I think that you'd be dumb to like, maybe not dumb, but you'd be short-sided to not look at the situation and say like, imagine, I mean, obviously imagine La Mello, but if they had had Lamello, you know, there's sort of the chain, the chain reaction thing of they might not have been in the position to pick Kaminga. But, but I think that Franz, with Golden State is really fascinating and it's hard not to like Franz as a player. I mean, what's interesting is that like I, you were talking about like a redraft kind of a thing like your rankings. Rookie of the year kind of is a redraft conversation indirectly,

but how high does he climb for you? I would, like I said, I'd have him third on my ballot right now. I had him 10th on my board entering the drafts. He'd be higher than 10. But how high, I'm not sure. I mean, he'd move ahead of Davion Mitchell. I'd bump him ahead of book night. I'd bump him ahead of Cominga, maybe seven, something like that.

And I say that, though. And yet I think about what we've seen from him. Like you mentioned the potential fit had he gone to Golden State. He would have fit so perfectly seamlessly there. Orlando, he fits too because he can fit anywhere. He's just that type of player at 610 with playmaking skill, with shooting skill, that he can just plug and play into any situation. and not to mention his defense,

the versatility that he has on that end of the floor with size to defend multiple positions. So with Wagner, I say maybe seven-ish, but I could easily see him continuing to move up because if that shooting goes from 36% up to 38, 39, or even 40%, if he continues to trend up,

which he has for years, the number one thing, though, I'm curious about with him is the playmaking. How much, how much of a playmaking load can Wagner take on as he continues to develop? You can use him and dribble handoffs at his size. You can use him as a guy who's facilitating around the elbows. You can use him as a guy who's bringing the ball up the court or running pick and roll.

With his size, you can use him as a pick and pop guy. You can use him on the short roll. I feel with Wagner, there's the potential for him when paired with the right players that he could be your offensive hub. Do you see that level of potential with him? And if so, how does that change maybe the trajectory of where he could be going? in his career. If the playmaking, I think you hit it. If the playmaking continues to edge up and like eke up and let's say he becomes,

you know, a like high, like defensive box plus minus guy and he's a good passer and he's like a 37% to 40% ish. Then you start getting like three point shooter. Then you start talking about a player like we were throwing at comps. I mean, maybe even like a Nicholas Batum type player that's like huge can give you some playmaking. Of course, Batum had some seasons where he got up into like the four or five assists per game range.

I think that that's an insanely valuable player. And you mean Batum, Batum, like, averaging 20 plus points. Because Batum, I think he maxed out around 15, 16 points per game as best years. Right, right, right. And it also depends on who you're

playing with. I mean, Franz is on a bad team, needless to say. But that's a really pliable. You kept saying, when you were like, going on your little thing there about, like, about Franz. You kept saying you can use them like this. You can use them like this. You just like you just keep adding like points to the gym, like facets to the gym.

More and more bullet points for Wagner. Yeah, it's just like you can use them all. You're just talking about a really pliable player. And like when I talked about Jalen Green, I was talking about like conditions. To me that is like the measure of an NBA player. Now you can be really, really efficient in your like conditional. style. I mean, we've seen players like that, but if you're more versatile,

like you can fit into an offense in different ways, your value just goes through the roof. And I think that him and Cominga, I think that the Cominga Franz thing is interesting because I think you have to hold out and say like upside makes me think that we continue to say Cuminga ahead of Franz

for now. But if we get like five or six years from now and he does add those things that you were talking about, that is a fantastic playoff level role player that is sought after. I mean, he's going to be an insanely valuable player. And he's ahead of what I thought.

He is. And I liked him. That's always funny when, that's always funny. And I've joked about this with Mobley, too. It's just like, I didn't hate Mobley. I just had him number two. And it's just funny whenever guys, like, whenever you're high on players and they surpass your expectations. And that's been Franz for me.

I love talking draft for you, Kyle. So I want to talk about somebody in the 2022 NBA draft. That's Jabari Smith, Jr. from Auburn. Duke, Duke, Bigman. and Paolo Bancaro, and we talked about Chet Holmgren earlier from Gonzaga. Those guys received and still received the majority of the hype as potential number one

picks in the 2022 draft, but you know, a lot of people I talked to around the league, scouts, execs, they say Jabari Smith Jr. for some of them has become their number one, or at least he's entered that conversation as a potential number one. Can you tell the listeners who might not be familiar with Jabari Smith Jr.

about his game? Jabari is a second generation NBA player. His dad played for LSU back around He played with Stroh Miles Swift for LSU. That's a throwback name for people. Jabari's more of like a modernized version of what his dad was. His dad was sort of like a true center that could face up some. Jabari is like a wing.

Like basically he's more of a wing in a power forward's body than vice versa. Like he's definitely like a face up stretch player. Right now insanely efficient three point shooter. I think he's like close to 43% on pretty good volume in college, pretty versatile. pick and pop, probably like a 7-2 wingspan. I don't think he's like an Uber explosive athlete, but I'm dialing in what I think he is. I'm not, we get into this kind of conversation every year

where the players with like insane superstar upside, usually these are like kind of like physically dominant players who could like combine that with some kind of like mega offensive defensive production. I'm not sure that I want to, it's the dilemma because he doesn't fit the mold of like a true number one pick to me. But that all depends on who is there. Paolo, I still need to do a dive on him this season

and really solidify my feelings on this. I hesitate to put him at number one, leaning no, because I don't know that his superstar upside is as high as Palo or Chet. But he could totally evolve and make a fool of me. I think that's fair, Kyle. I mean, it's definitely still mixed opinions on him, but when it comes to his ability,

you're talking about somebody who's 610, who's shooting 40 plus percent from three. And not only has the ability to hit shots off the catch, but he's shown the fluidity to create his own shot with mid-range pull-up, some turnarounds from the post, or the ability just to pull-up from three, you know, after bringing the ball up the court, after a defensive rebound that he grabbed himself. The question is going to be, what level does he actually reach is that shot creator? He's a bit stiff in his upper body.

Kind of reminds me of Michael Porter, Jr. in that sense. You know, Porter Jr., you know, he's somebody who obviously has become a potent scorer. Granted, he's out right now, but with Jabari Smith, he's not. really like that fluid guy who can toward his body around the rim. So is there a limit on what he can reach offensively as a scorer inside the paint or as a shot created himself?

And then defensively, that could be the skill that does vault him forward. I mean, man to man on the perimeter, that guy can move his feet laterally. Like I mentioned, his upper body's a bit stiff. That lower body is fluid. Like, he can move laterally. I could see a world in which he does become the number one.

I could see that. Just because of the collection of perimeter skills It's so important. That's what every team wants. It's what we kind of talked about throughout this show. We do this every year. It's like the alluring, kind of tantalizing upside of a potential superstar. Do you take that?

A lot of teams feel like they have to take the swing at that and take the risk at it. Because like I was saying, once you get the chance, you kind of have to take it to get a player like that on a rookie deal. But like, could Jabari end up the best player in this draft? Absolutely. Even easily. I actually kind of buy him more as like an offball, like team defender. he's pretty clever.

He's pretty interested in defense. He's high-motored. He cares. And he's smart, too. Everybody I talk to says he's a hard worker. He wants to be a great player. Yeah, and he has pretty active, attentive hands. You see him switch.

Like I was saying, he's not like a corrective, like mistake eraser. I think he's more of a rim deterrent than a shot blocker. Like, I don't think that you're going to see him making big erasing plays. But he is absolutely. And if you think about, okay, are you going to have. have like this really versatile volume three point shooter who's going to shoot i expect the shooting to translate i do you think he has some kind of load up energy transfer kind of stuff to work on but if you think about what what about his game is implied that's going to translate to the NBA level

and then you add that defense you don't really get a lot of players at that size who are two-way players like that so is he going to be a superstar similar to the conversation around franz similar similar challenges honestly um franz is built bigger than him like has kind of of a more like solid trunk, stronger. But yeah, I mean, absolutely he could end up the best player in the draft. Kyle,

I'm looking forward to talking more basketball with you later in the season. Before we go, I have one more question for you. What's your favorite song off the new elm? I don't live here anymore by the war on drugs. Oh, baby. Shout out date.

I've been, my son really likes this album, which is interesting. I really like, that's tough, man. I keep imagining what they're going to be like. live. I really like change. They're incredible life. Incredible.

It seemed like three or four times. I think change is good. I like that one a lot. Old skin is good. Harmonious dream. Yeah, that's... I'm a big fan of that song. Yeah, that's a great one. I've been like in a bass playing mood lately. I've been playing bass to that album. And I don't want

inspired by Dave. I got to pick up the sacks to be like John who plays on that band. He's a big Celtics fan. Dave, of course. Bass is a huge Sixers fan. I'm just picturing you playing sacks in your house. You're going to get a MIDI sacks so you don't annoy your neighbors as you learn sacks. Now, I've been playing bass along with

I don't want to wait in that album and that's a killer bass song. Yeah. What a song. I really like, I mean, obviously, I mean, I don't live here anymore. The album title with Lucius. Have you ever listened to Much Lucius? They have their album in 2016. Good grief.

Because I first heard of Lucius when they toured with Roger Waters from Pink Floyd. They did the vocals on Great Gig in the Sky. And like they are, they're unbelievable vocalist. And I was like, I'm going to go listen to their music. And their Elm, good grief. Like the first five or six songs on that Elm have some of the best vocal moments that I've heard like in the past five, ten years.

I mean, the harmonies on that Elm are just absolutely unbelievable. On the song, Madness, the song, I think, What We Have. Just unbelievable. Well, you're giving me some recommendations here. I need to check them out. I haven't. But I love what they did on the War on Drugs album. Good grief by Lucius.

Kyle, thank you for joining the void today. It was great chatting with you, man. Oh, enjoyed catching up, Kev. It's good to see you. Good catch up. Thank you again, Jay Kyle, man, from the Ringer, for joining the void. Thank you to Jesse Lopez for producing. And a big thank you to you for listening.

You can watch some clips from The Void on the Ringer's YouTube page. And I'll be back on Friday with Chris Vernon with a episode of The Mismatch. Please do us a favor and subscribe or follow the Mismatch podcast feed if you haven't already. And if you like the show, please recommend it to a friend who you think you might also like it. Thank you again. I hope you have a fun day.