The Mismatch - Looking at the Top of Each Conference, New NBA Awards, and Reaction from Celtics-Clippers

Episode Date: December 13, 2022

Verno and KOC briefly discuss the Alabama upset over Houston before shifting their attention to last night’s Clippers victory over the Celtics (06:39). Are these back-to-back losses for the Celtics something to be concerned about? They also discuss Kawhi Leonard’s night and if this version of Kawhi is enough to carry the Clippers to the Finals (17:27). Next, the guys discuss the top teams in each conference, beginning in the West with the Pelicans, Grizzlies, Nuggets, and Suns (24:59). In looking at the East, the guys discuss the Bucks and Cavs (55:08). Before ending the show, they discuss the impact of Cade Cunningham’s season-ending injury for the Pistons and give their thoughts on the new NBA season awards (01:05:34). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Connor. Wait a minute, you're not Chris Vernon. No, Kevin, sadly, I'm not as cherubic or as raspy as Verno, but it is I, Jay Kyle, man. And folks, basketball has been and continues to be so very good. That's exactly why Kyle and I are hosting a brand new basketball show on a brand new podcast feed, the ringers NBA draft show. We're going to have you covered every week as we go in-depth and deep dive in hopes of answering an ever-important question in the NBA. Who's got next?

Whether it's an international phenom like Victor Wimbenyama or the G-League Scoot Henderson. Or stars from Overtime Elite like A. Men Thompson, as well as a full-blown swarm of talented prospects from the promising 2023 NBA draft class. For sure, Kyle. And we're also going to get into players from the college ranks because this is a loaded class. for us to discuss prospects rising and falling, and we're going to revisit and redraft recent draft classes and get into how the league's evolution could help inform what's valuable in a prospect of the future.

This is a podcast for a fan of every team, whether you're losing and have high draft lottery odds or you're looking for sleepers later in the draft. We're going to be covering everything in the months to come, so please make sure you follow and subscribe to the Ringer NBA Draft Show. And hit us with those five-star ratings. Welcome to the Miss. Mitch, I'm Chris Fernand.

And joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin Obama, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin Budo! How are you doing, man? I'm great. I cannot wait to pick your brain, because since we have last spoken, you have been to two very interesting sporting events. I want to start with what you had teased on Friday's episode, which was going to a massive

college basketball game over the weekend to watch Alabama play against Houston. And as that turned out, Alabama got a huge victory by going to Houston and getting the win. Tell me about the scene. Give me takeaways. We obviously talk tons of NBA on this show, but with you and Jay Kyle Mann doing the draft show and Kevin O. College going back to a campus, I got to hear about it. It was fun. It was a great game. great atmosphere, small, like, kind of like intimate crowd, right? It's very loud in there. Fans are super into it.

And like the best, the best thing at a sporting event when you're just not rooting for either team is to be part of a crowd where like the home, the home base is exhilarated. And it gets crazy loud, game winners, exciting plays, or the other side when they walk out crushed and just totally deflated, which was the case with that game, because Houston had a 17. point second half lead. I was looking at Uber thinking, okay, am I going to have time to get to the airport? Maybe I should leave a little early just to make sure I'm safe. No. And then they cut at the 15th, cut it the 12th, the 10,

and I'm like, you know, I'm staying. I'm going straight to the airport. I'll be okay. Like, I still can't fathom the comeback Alabama. We don't need to get into the game too much, you know, because we're an NBA pod here. But the guy who stood out the most in that game wasn't Brandon Miller, who is the lottery.

prospect on Alabama. It wasn't Jarris Walker, a potential lottery prospect on Houston. It was Noah Clowny. A guy prospect that a lot of people don't talk about on the Alabama side, a 610 freshman whose hard-nosed

defender can shoot threes. And like he might be somebody that could use another year in college before like really establishing himself as a potential first round prospect. But he had a hell of a game right out of the jump for Alabama. He was the

Brandon Miller really struggled all game long, 0 for 8 from the field until in six clutch free throws down the stretch, which is admirable after the horrible game that he had to still make those free throws on the road. But Noah Clowney was the guy who stood out in that game, and it's a name to remember

if the season continues going really well for Alabama, I'm sure he'll at least test the draft waters and see what happens. Interestingly enough, I am going to be locked in to watching that team tonight. Tuesday night because they play against Memphis. Yeah. Memphis beat Auburn over the weekend and now plays Alabama tonight.

And so that's a big game. You keep up with Imani Bates at all? After he left Memphis, you keep up with Amani? No, I mean, I see that they lose every game and he scores 20-something points. I did see. I mean, I got check in to see, right? Like, hey, are they, how's that team doing? and evidently the team is awful.

The team's terrible. Yeah, me and Jay Kyle, a man talked about him like a month ago, and Kyle hates him. I'm not a big Abani fan either. He plays for himself, doesn't pass the ball. It's too bad.

He looks, Elani Bates looks so great. Remember those old high school videos? kind of always that unfortunately that has been the way they have steered him all along the way which is of Amani and the rest of them he's a fun highlight player like if you just like

plug him into YouTube still like the Eastern Michigan highlights you want to watch the whole game you see a lot of low lights but the highlights I mean he's still he's still a fun player to watch all right so the next one is we were both at games on Monday night you were at the more

interesting, though it was not competitive either. I was at Grizzlies Atlanta, and Atlanta did not have any of their players. No Trey Young, no Jadjante Murray, no John Collins, no anybody. John Moran, Desmond Bain, Stephen Adams were out for the Grizzlies. And so it was probably, you know, not a great representation of what a Grizzlies' Hawks game should be. You were at Celtics Clippers and I got to be honest I was kind of shocked by this outcome just after what had taken place with the Celtics over the weekend

against the Warriors. I figured that they would really bounce back and I think anybody that pulls that box score this morning, the thing that jumps out the most is obviously Kauai Leonard. And we had talked about, you know, the premature Kauai is back when he hit a couple of shots

in a game a week ago. that is a box score that would lead me to believe Kauai is back. So just tell me about being at Staples last night and kind of what you thought about Celtics and Clippers. On the Celtics side of things, like after that Warriors game, you know, I caught up with that this morning, actually,

because I didn't watch it live on Saturday. That was the day I was traveling back from Houston. But that Warriors game, like, you got to give some credit to the Gold State, you know, with their D.E. defense, they constantly changed up their scheme. They went into some random zones out of nowhere. Dramon Green just making calls were going zone and it would just totally mess up the Celtics

offense. They were clean on their switches on and off ball. It was probably Golden States, one of their better defensive performances of the season. And in that game, and then we started again against the Clippers was the lack of defensive rebounding for the Celtics. I think without Al Horford and both of these games, and obviously Robert Williams' time lord isn't back yet either. It probably would have looked different if one or both of those guys are active for Boston.

So you shouldn't read too much into it, I think, without them. Seldrits also are on the 10th day of an 11-day road trip. They face the Lakers tonight before heading back to Boston. It's a long road trip. You know, they go from Brooklyn to Toronto and then to California. So I think that's a factor that should be considered when assessing, you know, Their offense doesn't seem as crisp. The ball movement's not as good.

You know, they're settling for a lot of jumpers, especially Tatum. You can see that from right now. I think maybe they're tired. Not excuses for a team that is on a 60 plus win pace, but I think by that Milwaukee game on Christmas, they'll still be on a 60 plus win pace despite losing two in a row. So I'm not...

What about the Tatum thing, though? Is that real? Because, look, I'm not reading too much into it. It's not just those. I mean, look, Jimmy Butler flew into Texas. and next thing you knew, Jason Tatum had a hell of a go against a Miami Heat, who is one of their playoff peers. And then you saw them play that.

And then he crushes Brooklyn and Toronto. And they meet Phoenix by those are those 13. Those are teams that we think that of. Brooklyn's pretty good right now. But we don't think of them. We don't think of them like we do Miami when they got their full roster. We don't think of them like we think of Golden State or maybe even the It's fair.

It's fair for sure. But also, like, I think this speaks to, I mean, Tatum was talked about as an MVP candidate. He's not, like, the leader and the MVP leaderboard, it might be. I think it's Janice. But Tatum's still only 24 years old. Like, he might be in that MVP conversation, but I don't think the expectation still with him should be for him to do this night in, night out. Just like with Jaylen Brown, he's still a young player.

And I think with Tatum, he's still not in his, the prime of his career in terms of becoming the most consistent elite level night in, night out score. He's having more and more of those games, but he's still only 24 years old. But we were guilty of annoyed in him. We were. Because I've talked about it. He has taken a leap. He has taken a leap.

He's in the MVP conversation. This guy looked like one of the best players in the league. He still does. But he's a couple bad games doesn't change that. Well, when they played these best teams and teams have made a hell on him, That's what we want from our superstars. We want them to show up, and he didn't again that Miami game. He didn't in that Warriors game.

Ballard didn't play that other Miami game, but he also said like almost 50. He didn't. That's what I'm saying. Jimmy Butler flew into town, and all of a sudden this guy became a mushroom. Yeah, but it's like one bad, like he's going to have bad games. It happens. I'm not going to overreact to a couple bad games by Jason Tatum, who is on an upward trajectory still.

I mean, like you still follow his number like the stock. It's still going up, up, up, up, up, up. Just because it has a couple little dips here and there doesn't mean it's not still going up. So I'm not overreacting to Tatum here at the end of a 12-day road trip. It's just not, I don't think it's worthy of overreacting to. If this is a trend worth noting, we've seen this Celtics team in past years with this tour of Tatum and Brown have a lot of success. Then they hit a wall and they fall back into bad habits. They start settling for shots.

So this is a continuation of a long year-by-year trend that's worthy of watching, I think. But I think with this upcoming schedule for Boston, they come home, they get some easier games. They face Orlando twice. They get Indiana, Minnesota. I mean, like, these aren't obviously easy outs Indiana and Minnesota, but it's not like they're going to be able to fix themselves.

You would think these next couple of weeks before the Christmas Day game against Milwaukee, which is the true. barometer test against the best player in the world and Yonis ended Akumpo with Chris Middleton, you hope he's able to get back. That's the true barometer here. And also, the Warriors can be, like, when they have their three stars, Clay was awesome on Saturday night. He was so good.

Draymond was amazing on defense. Steph is step. When they have their guys, they're still a really good team. Just like the Clippers last night, Kauai Leonard looked like Kauai Leonard, really the first time all season. And besides that one game winning jumper he hit, when he didn't look great the whole game,

Kauai looked a lot like himself. He still doesn't have, I think watching him, he still doesn't have the same burst off the dribble. He doesn't have that, you know, next gear that he can kick into yet. But in terms of like hitting contested shots, making the right play, drawing the defense, and making the right passes, he looked a lot like Kauai Leonard.

He looked better defensively, I thought. Paul George didn't shoot the ball well, but he's looking better as well. The Clippers are a good team. It's not like they lost to some slabs out there. They lost to the Warriors who are a finals contender, and the Clippers who want to be a finals contender if Kauai is healthy.

I wouldn't read too much of it. Again, gave a contact. It's not that they lost. It said they got killed. And their best player stalled. Williams out. End of a long road trip. Like, if these are excuses,

they're legitimate factors that go into why regular season games are lost. Okay. I mean, they have played these. So you disagree. You think there's reason for concern with Boston. They might be phonies? I just think that once we want to see them against the other teams that we consider teams that are championship level.

Or that we think that you're going to be facing in the playoffs. These are like marquee matchups when you have obviously the Miami thing when Jimmy Butler flies into town. He says, Boston, I'm on my way. that adds some juice to that. The Golden State was a rematch of the NBA finals. And they're without Andrew Wiggins in that game. They've got some guys down too. And so we won it.

That's a big stage. That's national TV. Everybody's watching that game. And then last night they're playing against the clippers. You were going to have Kawhi Leonard in their lineup. A lot of people had that team as a Western finals slash NBA finals team. and all I'm saying is they've played those three teams and the Miami one was certainly closer than the last two. It's not just like they played like mega competitive games against those.

I just wonder if we are going to look at those and say that are they, when they played the other teams that are their peers? When we put you up at the very top, when we make you the favorite to win, then I think it's fair to have the expectation that you're going to be at least very competitive against the other teams that we put in that mix. I think that's fair too, which is why with those last two games against Golden State and the Clippers, context matters. No Al Horford, no Robert Williams, and tonight they're going to face Anthony Davis, and they're probably going to get pounded in the paint once again with AD out there.

You would think they did beat the Grizzlies on the road. You were at that game. I was, and it went right down to the wire. Yeah, and they've beat up on a lot of, you know, average or below average teams. They have a mixed record against the best of the best in the NBA. That's 100% true. And that's why, like, again, I'm not overreacting. I think the context matters.

They've had some great moments. They've had some lower moments. They've had some more recent moments. Are they the definitive favorite? I don't think so. I think them in Milwaukee are kind of co-favorites right now in the east. I put them at the top of the NBA right now, but they're clear favorites over Milwaukee,

a team that has proven they can win it all. A team that hasn't had Chris Middleton is still near the top of the Eastern Conference. No, I don't think so. I think Milwaukee right now, I give them a slight edge over Boston. Granted, it's very close. That's largely factoring in history.

Boston is better depth. They're better three to nine than Milwaukee is, but Milwaukee has Yonnas and the Kumpo. And Boston right now, if Horford continues to miss games, he's older right now of Robert Williams, we'll see if he can stay healthy. What we are seeing with Boston is if they're missing one of these guys or both of these guys, as they are now, they are severely limited in the paint. No matter how good Blake Griffin has been when he plays once per week,

when you get to rely on Blake every night to be a rim protector, it's not going to work. So this is their weakness that they have an injury prone center in time lord and an older center in Al Horford. it's fragile at that position for Boston when Milwaukee could be their primary competition that they need to get through when they have the most dominant interior player in all of basketball and yanna. So that is concerning in that sense.

But in terms of them losing these games the way they lost them, I'm not reading into it way too much. I think you've got to give credit to the Warriors for what they did defensively, for what they can be when they really are locked in and they flip that switch as they can at the stage of their dynasty and you have to give credit to the Clippers.

Kauai looked awesome. Paul George is looking better. that teams looking more like themselves, at least when Kauai is actually out there. Yeah, does it change your opinion of them? I mean, how much do we just have to wait and see on the Kauai thing? I mean, it's interesting because it's so shocking when he becomes like superstar, mega-efficient Kauai for one night. And you're like, okay, like, is this going to be the case?

Because you remember, like, last time we talked about him, and I said, you know, everybody's saying, Kauai Leonard's back. He hit this last second, you know, two-point shot under the basket, and then he hit the little step-back jumper to win the game. And then we're like,

yeah, and then he probably won't play next game. And in fact, and we were right about that. Yeah, he didn't even play it. It's like, okay.

He missed multiple games. Yeah, here. He's back. And then, like, we didn't see him for a week. And then he shows up for this Celtics game. And it's like, best version.

of Kawhi Leonard. And so are we still just gonna do the we have absolutely no idea. Like, I don't know what to make of it.

Like that's the first time we've seen that Kauai in forever. I don't know what to make of it either. Like I said in passing earlier, I still don't think he has the same burst right now. You know, a lot of the shots he hit were contested like fadeaways from the post over Jalen Brown.

He had, I thought the best shot he hit was against Marcus. smart. He got to cut into the lane. And then he continued after receiving the ball towards the baseline and just hit one of those like Jordan-like fadeaways leaning, you know, towards the out of bounds. It was, it was a nice shot, but contested. So he had a hot shooting night, but he wasn't creating the easiest shots for himself because of the lack of burst and explosiveness. So will we see that version of Kauai Leonard? I don't know. But maybe Kauai Leonard is finding ways to make it work given his current circumstances.

And he said after the game, you know, he wants to play heavy minutes every night. He wants to play all the time, but he's trusting the doctors and their feedback and all that. So, I mean, that was an interesting comment there from Kauai Leonard that stuck out to me about his minutes workload because it's like a lot of confusion about what the deal is there. I mean, is it the team doing this? is it Kauai doing this? What information did they not know? But the exact wording of what he said was, I've been trying to do it since the beginning of the year.

It's just about listening to the guys who study this. It's only my ninth game of the season. That's after a whole ACL tier. Just can't rush it. I wish I could have played more. I mean, not saying a lot, but he is saying something there about he's trusting the guys who study this. If I told you that that's the Kauai Leonard they get,

they're not going to win the finals. They're not going to win the finals, no. And you don't think, do you think that's a West Finals team if they've got that Kauai? I mean, like, production and results? Yes, because he was 10 for 12 from the field and he was really good.

But like I'm saying, that version of him. Yeah, I just don't think he has the same verse right now. No. You thought that was a one-night thing. Like if you go back and watch like Prime Spurs Kawhi and then Prime Raptors Kawhi and then like the last time we saw Kawhi before he got hurt in that Clipper series against the jazz, that all of those versions of Kawhi Leonard were cracker off the dribble, more explosive off the bounce, created better separation. This version of Kawhi Leonard seemed like a what you would imagine late career Kawhi Kauai looks like when he still has a bangor of a bangor of a lot. a night and he did he was awesome last night he looked more like himself but there were tough shots and i think in that sense how sustainable is that will he go back to having some blunder

performances i don't know i mean maybe he gets better he might get better uh he could i'm not you can't rule that out with a player with his the great heights he's reached in the past um but all i know is like the game before against washington and the i think it was orlando last week he didn't look like himself. And I even think last night, he didn't totally look like himself physically. So I don't want to say I'm pessimistic about it because I love Kauai, but I'm definitely not optimistic about it. I feel like I'm realistic about it here. He's going to have great nights, but I'm not sure he's the same guy athletically anymore. And that's where my concern is for the Clippers, because they need that version of Kauai Laird for this team to be anything in the NBA

postseason. Yeah, that was a, I mean, no, that was their first, that was easily the most promising thing that Kauai's done in a very, very long time. No doubt. It's the best game he had since before we got hurt. Yeah. It's easily the best game he had all season long. Easily. It's not even close.

I know he had the game winner, but that game wasn't that great. And we didn't even see him last year. Yeah. It's literally the best, the best game we've seen by Kauai in over two years. That's for sure. And now it's,

can you stay healthy? I mean, they're right now. They're at seventh. they're in 7th, they're 5 and 5 in their last 10 games. Obviously, one of those teams you wouldn't necessarily want to see in the play in. Of course, not over two years. It's more than a year and a half. I'm mixing up my calendar.

Look, two years, year and a half. It's been a long time. We can't remember it. We can't remember what it was. That's how long it's been since he's talking about him. So they are at 7th. The fact that play you had right now is hilarious. It'd be Clippers, Dallas, Golden,

state, Utah. You want to talk about a parlay. I mean, at any point in the season, I would have never in a million years thought that that's the four teams that you're getting. Looking to get more out of this NBA season? Well, now's the perfect time to download Fandul, America's number one

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We talked about a lot of those teams of what we think they're going to do. So now we're going to do those teams that have been really good so far this year. So we just go down the west one by one. The very top of the Western Conference is your beloved New Orleans Pelicans. Two massive wins over the weekend against the Phoenix Suns. And those are two teams that met in the playoffs last year. And a little smoke there between those. Oh, that Zion Dunk was the coolest thing, Chris.

It was so awesome. We need more of that genuine energy, animosity. That's how rivalries are formed. I tweeted about this. The absolute best thing that can happen for fans is that taking place. You want there to be animosity. You know, I'm at games every other night. And, you know, the game ends.

These guys are playing kissy face. These guys are exchanging their jerseys, autographing it for each other. They're taking off their shoes and trading them. They're giving each other hugs, you know, adapting each other up, and everybody's, you know, kumbaya. And I love it where they're yelling at each other as they're walking towards the locker. Like, we need matchups to look forward to.

We need teams that hate each other's guts. It's one of the things that has been lost. And those things do develop from playing each other quite a bit, right? It's usually emits from playoffs. And it's now almost obsolete. Like in terms of like rivalries and teams that are both really good that really don't like each other where you can go back and you can play these clips of here's different things

that have happened throughout time between the, two teams and you kind of got the feisty guys and then you got the thing that upset the sons and you got the sons who were always perpetually mad at everything like it was awesome and let's just take a moment because so much was made of the moment and is that classy is that not classy all that bumpcus wow wow wow wow the dunk was amazing it was so cool Like that's a 50. That's a 50 at the dunk contest. To see a guy that size spike it like that.

360 windmill. And spiked it. I love it when they throw it straight down. Like he slammed that thing hard. And the crowd's going insane and the suns are pissed. And oh, so good. Well, and not to mention the hypocrisy, the Sun's scoring at the end of some of the games they had previously as well when the game was well out of hand and they could have ran the clock. It's ridiculous.

Everybody outside of Sun's fans finds the Sun's annoying. And every time that they are perpetually aggrieved, it's annoying. Right? They're the offended. They're the NBA Cairns. Well, that's a Chris Paul thing. That's one reason why they're. So I tweeted out to play.

simply said, I love so much that Zion did this. And I read a lot of my mentions. Like, the mentions on that, like, you had fans like of, like, the Nuggets and the Celtics with my little, you know, avatars on Twitter saying, this is my favorite play of the season. This is the

coolest thing I've seen all year. I love Zion now. There's so much of that, right, like that I've seen in his replies and quote tweets. It is always Paul teams. Because those old Clipper teams, people couldn't stand because of Paul. Yeah, yes. But I'm just saying, like, in the case of Zion, like Zion said, I thought his response after the game was awesome.

He's like, there's a little out of character for me, but my teammates lost to this team last year, just felt good in the moment and all that. Like, Zion, lean into being this killer, man. Like, be feared. And I think with him, you know, I reported that story in the Pelicans a month ago. We talked about, you know, you called it a love letter. And I was like, it's not quite a love letter. It's about their upside and some of the concerns that could hold them back.

And one of the things we talked about was Zion, A, his health, which remains a concern with his body type and his injury history, but B, his defense. I think defensively the past month, he is still not a good defender. But he has been better than worse than the NBA. He's putting in better effort. He's far more active off ball. They have him roaming a lot of the time, active in the passing lanes, causing deflections, helping in the paint. he looks better than I think he ever has defensively in the NBA. Still doesn't seem like the same level that he was at Duke,

but also with Duke, it's not like he didn't make mistakes. It's not like he didn't have some down moments, but effort was always there. I feel like the effort from Zion has been there pretty consistently this past month or so. And for New Orleans, that bodes very well for them when you consider that. He's doing that while carrying an incredibly heavy offensive workload with Brennan Ingram out recently.

handling the ball more often, playing making more often, bringing the ball up to court more often, and obviously slingshotting towards the rim like he does all the time in the half court. So he's playing a lot on offense while putting in better effort on defense. That's got to bode well for New Orleans long term this season

when you project what they could potentially be in the playoffs. A young team with concerns, it obviously goes without saying. But Zion being better on defense, that that is a real positive. signed for him this year that he's buying into the collective of this group with guys like Alvarado and Najee Marshall, all these tryhard players. Like this is a good thing for them to see Zion playing like that.

Well, and the other thing is it's kind of in the absence of Ingram, we have gotten this very clear, Zion's that guy. You know what I mean? Zion's that guy. And it needs to survive around Zion. Like, there's always a pecking order with these teams. And Zion needs to be the leading shot taker on that team. And I'm not talking about every single night, right?

There's nights that Jalen Brown takes more shots than Jason Tatum. But I'm saying on a regular, like, he's the guy. And then there's Ingram and then there's McCallum and then there's the others, right? Like, he is not only the future of that franchise. He is the present of that franchise. I said, as I've said, a hundred times. So force of nature, I don't know what you do with him. You know, the only thing that I've seen done to him was when Memphis played him a couple weeks ago,

and Dylan Brooks said, you are not going left. He forced him into probably the worst game of his career, you know. And it was like, we are going to sit on what you want to get to. But then, even in that game, when somebody, like Brooks went out of the game. I mean, he would just pummel people on the way to the rent. And good luck. Good luck trying to stay in front of him. He's getting where he wants to go. You know, so he's he's one of the most difficult players in the league to deal with. And I think on a game and game out basis, he is, I mean, he's that guy already. One thing I'll say is like Zion,

Zion's tendencies are to go left, but he can go right and still. get to his left hand at the rim. So, like, I think with Zion, maybe this is the adjustment we'll see over the course of the season. He loves to go left. He wants to go left. Everybody knows he wants to go left. LeBron said it early in the season.

Like, everybody talks about him wanting to go left. He still dominates you anyway. Well, maybe this is the year is he garners that defensive attention all year long. They start throwing doubles at him. That he starts learning how to get even better at going right, where it becomes like a 50-50 split, where he's not going left 75% and 80% of the time. It becomes more. 50-50 split.

And if he's getting that attention, like Zion can pass the ball, yo. Like that dude can really playmate for his teammates. So I think with them, like the reason why I've been so bullish on New Orleans since they got McCollum in February is like if Zion is healthy and if he plays like he did prior to his injury and if Ingram does what he does in that Phoenix series and has shown he can do throughout his career since he was in L.A., like they have options. So if Zion is having a night where they're packing the paint

and he's just not able to get it going the way that he usually can. If they're building the wall like they do against Janus, well guess what? Janus has Chris Middleton. Janus has Drew Holliday, those perimeter creators who can help activate him in a different way running high pick and roll, causing switches and whatnot, right? Zion has those options with Brandon Ingram, who has proven to be an elite isolation score, very good pick and roll creator, and CJ McCollum, who's been a buck and

get her for years. So they have so many options to be a source of creation. Never mind like the other guys, a Dyson Daniels, who can really create for you. Your Jose Alvarado, who had a 30 plus point game recently, and he's like, you're a spark plug guard off the bench, a Larry Nance for dribble handoff actions on the perimeter. They have different Jonas Valanchunis who could be interior or perimeter with DHO, spot-up threes, pick and pops. They have so many sources of creation. I think New Orleans is one of those teams where they can throw five guys on the floor and all of them can initiate your offense for you at a high level. Where Zion's the number one guy, like you said, Chris, we're talking about the hierarchy,

but he's not the only one. And I think that gives their role in the Pelicans a distinct advantage when it comes to playoff matchups, assuming they stay healthy, assuming these young guys can maintain production, and I think they can. I have a lot of belief in this team, and they continue to improve my confidence. and what they can be this season, but especially in the years to come. Interestingly enough,

the team that is right there behind them is Memphis Grizzies. Now, you know, I see them all the time. They have not had their starting lineup the entire year. And I think the trick for New Orleans is going to be the same trick for Memphis, which is can you,

can you get that Zion with Ingram playing and McCollum play? When they have their whole, lineup. Like, there's some blessing sometimes in not having your whole lineup. And as soon as Memphis got Jaron Jackson Jr. back, they lost Bain. And Bain was averaging 25 points a game. So they've been doing all what they've been doing recently without this guy who's 25 points

a game. But we haven't seen Morant, Bain, and Jackson, along with Brooks and Adam. Like, we haven't seen them. Have they had a single minute? Not one minute. one. Wow. And how about this, Kevin? Last year, they played a hundred minutes. He didn't see him last year either, except for when they got into the playoffs.

Like, they just have never lined up. They've never lined up, you know. And so now- Is that a concern for you, even though they've won without those guys? You know, they keep winning. I mean, it would be more of a concern if they had one, you know, they had the second best record in the NBA last year, and they lost Morant for a long. span of time and we saw what Bain was before he got hurt this year. My concern would be Bain. Like in order to achieve what you want to achieve, he's got to be able to. And so they said after

three or four weeks, they're going to look at, you know, he's ramping up. And if the quote, toe responds, then he'll be back on the floor, you know, at three to four weeks is what they said. Okay. Well, what's the other side of that? It doesn't respond. I mean, then you're talking a guy that's got to get surgery. And so that's the big one, the tanging out there. Desmond Bay can come back, then watch out. Because they had, I believe, the highest scoring back court in the entire NBA with him and Moran. And now they have added Jaron Jackson, who last night, despite the rat team I watched him play against,

this guy played like less than 25 minutes. He had eight blocks in the game. he is blocking a higher percentage of shots so far this season than any player has in NBA history. He has the highest plot percentage in NBA history. He could be the first player in NBA history to block over three shots per game while playing under 30 minutes per game. I mean, I think the number is right now 12.5%

and teams are shooting 12% worse with him on the floor and they're shooting less than 44% from at the rim which is like lower than any level. I mean, he is, he's grown into his body and he's gotten all the timing down. He's amazing.

He's just impossible to deal with. He can block shots with either hand. He can block shots high at the top of the release point at the rim. He can block shots lower as a player, like it's going up. Kind of like those strips, you know, that are borderline steals or blocks or whatever.

Like he, like his hand, coordination, dude. Like, it is truly elite. That came along with foul trouble. And now foul trouble is not, has not been a thing. Gotten better. Yeah.

Gotten better for sure. I think you only found out of two games last season. Do you think with Jaron Jackson, why is he still only playing, you know, under 30 minutes per game right now? Is he going to be a guy who, but why? It's what they do.

Because they win. Because they win. Because they win. That's fair. It's fair. Yeah, it's kind of like Janice. Yonis his MVP year, he played 31 minutes a game. Hey, they won all the time.

Hey, make no mistake, Taylor Jenkins was on that bench. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yep, good point. Good point. You see what Milwaukee does. This is just what they did. So in other words, it's like you said to me last week, Jimmy Baller in the playoffs, he'll

take 25 shots. That's right. It's hard to assess Miami in the regular season versus Miami in the postseason. Memphis in the regular season plays Jaron Jackson 27 minutes tonight. Memphis in the postseason plays Jared Jackson 37 minutes for night. That's basically the way

you need to assess them because then you're going to have nights where Stephen Adams plays five minutes, nights where he plays 25 minutes, depending on the matchup, the situation, what your objectives are on the offensive end if you want to attack the glass, if you need sides on the interior, that's the nice thing about Memphis.

If they get all their guys, you can play so many different styles. Few teams are better equipped to play small. ball with Jaron Jackson at the five. You can play small and you can be versatile and you can switch but it's not often you can play small

in the NBA and maintain rim protection. And Jaron's Action Jr., like, dude's incredible. He's one of those purrs where when you watch Grizzlies games, sometimes it's fun just to like lock in your eyeballs on Jaron Jackson on defense and just watch the way

he moves. He's like a century, the way he reads defenses and then the way he helps and recovers and His arms, like, I can't get over the way he blocks shots. He blocks is crazy. Crazy. Oh, I have this old pitcher that I have from the day. It was the morning after he got drafted.

I had him in studio. You, and Tashon Prince, former Detroit Pistons Great, who was a front office member in Memphis, had told me, check out this dude's hands. he said when we interviewed him at the combine he goes i shook this guy's hand and he goes it swallowed mine now keep in mind taste out prince is like six nine and he's a long lanky guy so i have this picture i put my hand up to jaron jackson's hand Kevin i'm telling you my the top

and i don't have small hand the top of my middle finger comes up to where his finger begins on his hand. They are insane. It's like bare paws or something. Huge. I mean, he is an enormous human being. And he's gotten taller, too, since he got drafted. I mean, he's over seven foot tall in that.

Yeah, for sure. Like you said, he's also grown into his frame. He's stronger. That's what a lot of those guys do, right? I think you're going to look up and you're going to see these mobile. and guys like that, that's what they end up looking like. Yeah. Like suddenly overnight, they're going to be, like, they're going to look strong.

Yes. And that's the thing with like, you know, Victor Wenband. I'm an extra. He's skinny now, but look at him last year. He's much bigger. He'll be even bigger next year. With Jaron Jackson, like, the body's improved. He's always had the athleticism and the length and the knack for blocking shots.

But the block he had in, I think, the second quarter last night, where it was like a help situation against a cutter. He was defending a pick and roll, I believe. And there was a pump fake in the paint. Jared Jackson stayed down. And he didn't fall for the pump fake. And then he left after the player actually went up for the layoff and just swatted the hell out of the ball.

And that's like one of those plays where you're like, okay. But you have to say the player, because I swear to God, Kevin, I cover the NBA regularly. I didn't know who any of these. I forget. I didn't even know who these people are. I said, who the hell is Tyrese Martin? Let me find the plan.

What was the one guy's name? Go look at the box score. What's the one guy's name? Convin or something? I didn't even know who that was. They were playing some wild guys last night for Atlanta. Anybody can go look at that box score. And it's like, who?

I defy you to tell me who some of these people are. Hey, I drove to the arena. I'm like, yeah, job versus Trey. I got Tyos Jones versus Trent Forrest. The block that I was talking about, I just found it. It was against Frank Kaminsky. So people know Frank Kaminsky from his college days. That was a block on Kaminsky.

But yeah, there was a lot of who he play for. How familiar are you with Vit Kretschki? Not much as all. No, sounds like a hockey player. Was he in the draft guy? Vit Kretzky. Creachy. Sounds like a hockey player.

Craichy, yeah. There's a Bruins player with that last day. That's why I know how to, you know, crotia. Yeah. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Sounds like a hockey player. You said you know because he's a, he's a, he's playing for the broo. Yeah, David, David,

Creachy is a pretty good hockey player. I don't know anything about hockey. You don't? No, not really. I know, Patrice Bergeron,

David Craichie. There you go. All right. Virgilon's been around 20 years. He has been right. like 20 years. Next with Denver.

Started off kind of uneven, but have gotten going as recently. It kind of feels like, you know, there's been some, it's been some Jamal Murray sightings. Looking better. Much, much, much, much, much.

Yeah, much better. And again, one of those teams that you want to see them full force. You know, when they've got this version of Murray along with the best version of Michael Porter, Jr. along with some of the stuff that they've added

KCP, Aaron Gordon and the stuff over the course of the last couple of years that's been added to the mix. But look, when you've got one of the best players in the world, you've got a chance at

the ultimate prize, right? When you get two-time reigning MVP, you want to have the guys around them. They had a rough go there for a minute. They dropped that game to it. then they lost at New Orleans and they turned around. They lost that heartbreaker to Dallas.

But, you know, they've gotten kind of back on track. They won the game at Portland last Thursday. Over the weekend, they beat Utah. Don't have a particularly difficult schedule ahead. Feels like they're just kind of holding the fort, you know, gotten, I like some of the stuff they've added. You know, KCP fits well. Brown fits well

and I just want to see it all together I mean I think this is true it's kind of crazy and I think it speaks to how well these teams were built that we're going one two three on this kev New Orleans Memphis and Denver

and you feel like you haven't seen the best version of any of them and yet those are the three teams with the best record is that fair yeah I mean it is pretty wild in the case of Denver you know, like you said, Jamal Murray at least getting better, right?

You know, he's showing signs of life. Michael Porter Jr.'s had a good year, I think. You know, he's still missing some time. So injury concerns are always going to be there. He's been more competitive on defense. You know, you still like to see him, you know, fit into that offense at a level like Murray do and Bruce Brown and Aaron Gordon.

I mean, those guys are really thriving around Yokic. Porter's passing instincts aren't on the level of some of those guys. I wonder if maybe he'll be the odd man out at times, despite such a, what a flamethrower he is. Maybe he's trade bait, just throwing that thought out there. With Porter,

maybe you can maximize on him, you know, being relatively healthy and playing well and being young. But, I mean, I think with Yokic right now, he is not needed to score as often as he has in his past two years winning MVP,

but we know that guy can turn it up, you know, anytime he needs to. I like this Denver team. They seem to be figuring some things out. DeAndre Jordan coming off the bench is still strange to me. In any other scenario, Nicola Yolkich averaging 24, 10, and 9 is just freakish, except we've just gotten so used to what he is.

And, you know, I think they got eight guys, right? That's what you need. And they just got- They are shallow. They got to keep those eight healthy. They need all eight healthy. But if they've got Yokic, Murray, Gordon, Porter, Bones,

Casey P. Brown, and throw in Jeff Green in there as another one. That gives you eight. And then the other guys can spot here, spot there. But I mean, you've got your eight. Yeah, I could do without the Andre Jordan, too.

But you know what? I mean, he doesn't kill him. He doesn't kill. No. You know. It's also just a regular season. I think that's where the concern will become. We're only in December right now,

but it's like we were talking about with Boston earlier. If they don't have Horford or they don't have Robert Williams, they can be attacked in the paint with Denver. If you're playing DeAndre Jordan in the postseason, they're going to run pick and roll at him over and over and over again. Michael Porter, Jr., if you're rolling him out there in the postseason, they're going to attack him over and over and over again. And like, same thing with Zion, right?

They're going to attack him. They're going to test him. And man-to-man defense, they're going to try to exploit him as much as they can over and over again. So for Denver, there are some minor concerns. But this speaks to the state of the Western Conference, Chris. None of these teams are perfect, right? None of them. None of them.

Not Denver, not New Orleans, not Memphis. Phoenix obviously isn't. The Warriors aren't. Clippers are. None of them are perfect. Let's get to Phoenix. I mean, they lost those two games against New Orleans over the weekend, got mad about the Zion. Dung.

It feels like there's a lot of smoke out there about a possible Jay Crowder deal, that something could happen with that. Shams wrote an article yesterday that put out covering Crowder and John Collins, both of those, and it said, The Sun's recently engaged in three team talks that would have sent Crowder to Milwaukee, four bucks second round draft picks along with players to Houston and Eric Gordon and or Kenyon Martin Jr. to Phoenix. The hold up in the potential deal was that the Rockets are coveting a first round pick

for Gordon and for Martin a very good first rounder, not a batch of second rounders. Rockets have had interest in Gordon from several contending teams. sources have said, but appear less willing to entertain the topic of Kevin Kenyon Martin Jr. All right. So, I mean, they already have eight first round draft picks through 2029. And they've got a bunch of young talent on their team in Jalen Green, Porter Jr., Schengun, Tabari, Tari Isson, Jashah Tate, who they sign the offseason, et cetera, et cetera, and Kenyon Martin Jr. along with them.

Did you give up a first round pick for Eric Gordon? For Eric Gordon and Kenyon Martin? Yes. I think if you're Phoenix, you're at a position right now. Like you are all in, baby. When now? Your point goes 38. All in.

Yeah. And Eric Gordon is still a damn good player. Kenyon Martin, I mean, like that dude's activity on defense, interceptions, deflections, the off-ball rotations and recoveries. that dude is like in a winning situation, I'd love to see it. And I think with Eric Gordon, if you had those two guys to your collective group in Phoenix, they help support your wing defense that you lose without having Crowder, but also with Gordon providing some secondary creation in the event that Chris Paul

is either not the same guy or misses time, like we've seen from him so many years in their depot season runs, where you can have a Gordon Booker back court or a Gordon Payne back court, and you still have enough creation that you're okay, right? So I think for Phoenix, that checks both boxes with playmaking depth behind Chris Paul and wing defense to replace Jay Crowder and shooting as well. So for both those guys, yes, but we're still in the early stages right now. It's not December 15th yet. That's coming Thursday.

More players will be available to be dealt. But the truth is it probably won't be until January or February that we see some of these deals shake out unless Phoenix decides just to cough it up now. They might. Well, I mean, they're the ones giving up Crowder. I mean, I think the picks were going to be from Milwaukee, right? So I don't know what Milwaukee's willing to give up. And obviously their picks aren't necessarily very desirable

when they've got Janice Otis Dekumpo on their team. You know what I mean? Like their foot expounders. And Crowder ending up in Milwaukee would have a lot of PJ Tucker ending up in Milwaukee energy from a couple of years ago, right? He's no PJ Tucker though. hard-nose role player that can...

He's not PJ Tucker, though. That's the thing. You mean he shoots the ball? He's not as good defensively. He's not as much of a winner, not as much of a good playmaker. I mean, Joe Crowder is a solid player,

but he's not Tucker. He's not talking to make the finals. I mean, come on. Yeah, he's a good player. But, like, Tucker, Tucker's just like another level defensively. Oh, yeah. I think.

You know, and he's a better passer, too. Tucker is, like, your consummate role player. I'm saying it's the same. type of player. Totally agree. I think he's going to break the record for least lowest usage

in the history of the NBA by player. I'm serious. I read that the other day. It's wild. That he's going to have the lowest usage of any player that's ever played that many minutes

in the league. I saw some stat. I'll try to find it real quick. His stats within without Hardin. I mean, it's like absurd. Oh, really? Like, do he, okay, okay, so from, and this isn't the tweet that I saw a couple weeks ago,

but this is from Derek Bodner. PJ Tucker's usage with Hardin versus Without. With Hardin, he scores 11.7 points per 100 possessions. Without Hardin, that drops to 3.2 points per 100 possessions. So it's like he scores a third of the points. It's like a third of the shot attempts, third of the usage, third of efficiency. Hard is just the one that throws it to the corner to him, huh? Yes, he's the creator for Tucker.

It's a strange thing. All he does is shoot corner three. Yeah. Right? If he does shoot him. Oh, this is the one that I saw. Tucker with Hardin. 6.2 points per game, 4.1 field goal attempts, 52% from three.

Tucker without Hardin, 1.7 points per game, 2.3 field goal attempts, 28% from 3. That's incredible. Incredible. Yeah, I know. All right, on the Easter conference, we covered Boston earlier. Milwaukee, I'm actually going to get to see them on Thursday night in person. And I'm excited to see them. It's always-

We'll talk about that Friday then, for sure. Yeah, it's always one that I'm super excited to see. It sucks that they got Middleton back and then lost Middleton. Yeah. And that was a rough loss they took to the Rockets a couple days ago. Jaylen Green was awesome in that game. Really good. win for the Rockets.

Tough loss for sure for the bucks. And so, yeah, as I mentioned, I'm going to see them Thursday. So we could do bucks on Friday. But they've been one of the best teams in the league. We expected them to be one of the best teams in the league. Another one of those teams that we have not seen full version of. I think it's fair. That's one of the things that has stood out is, you know, we talked about so many of those

teams in the middle in our last episode. You look, Kev, with these ones that are really good, haven't seen what we think is the best version of New Orleans, haven't seen the best version of Memphis, haven't seen the best version of Phoenix, because they don't have their guys and they lost Cam, like virtually immediately, and they were already without Crowder,

which is a roster spot for a projected rotation player for them. and then same goes with Denver. Then in the East have not seen the best version of Boston because they've been without Rob, though they will clearly be a different team when they get Williams and when they get Williams and Horford in unison. Milwaukee, we haven't seen the best version of them yet because they have been without Middleton

and the team- Supposed to be back tonight for what it's worth. Yeah. The Warriors supposed to be back. And we've seen more of the best version of Cleveland. I mean, they've had some, you know, they lost Garland for a time. They lost Donovan for a time. But, man, when you see Cleveland fully loaded, they can play with anybody.

Anybody. That team is. And they're a fun watch, too. That back court is absolutely awesome. And their big guys are awesome. They just need one wing. They need to figure out that three spot. and you know

they get Rubio healthy then they got that Rubio love thing that can come off the bench like that Cleveland team man can't believe they lost to San Antonio though and for what it's worth I did not see that game last night

I didn't because I was at I thought that was a misprint when I saw it yeah yeah so I can't speak on that game specifically yeah I'll catch up on it eventually because San Antonio winning these games

pop come on get on the same page with your front of the owner It's like, come on, Pop. Everyone's why you got to throw them up bone, right? Yeah, come on, Pop. What are you doing out there? But yeah, you're right.

Cleveland, Cleveland's, they're not at the same level of upside in terms of Boston or Milwaukee. But, like, they get the pieces for sure. You're right, Chris. They just have a missing piece there with Okoro, which is a shame because Okoro, like, he does everything else. He defends, he hustles, he's logging transition blocks. and he's a good passer. He cuts. He's a high IQ player.

He just can't shoot. There's everything else that Cleveland could have wanted out of that position except for shoot the ball, which is what makes it so disappointing. But they have everything else you need. Even Karis Levert.

I'm not the biggest Lavert fan, but he's a spark plug off the bench. And every once in a while, he just wins you a game. 100%, right? Where he comes out and he has 30. Right? That's the type of guys you want

coming off your bench. So I think for, and also I think with Mobley, you know, he, I don't want to crap on him at all. Yeah, I love Mobley. He's an amazing defensive player. He does a lot of valuable things on offense. I want to see that three-point shot develop because I think one of the things I'm worried about with Cleveland has come postseason time. If you got Mobley shooting a 25% from three and Allen as a non-shooter, like there's going to be lineups where they have two or three non-shooters. on the floor.

And when you consider the way, we're taught, one of the themes of our conversation today is about how player tendencies change in the postseason, team tendencies change when they're game planning in a playoff series. Right now, Mowbly is not shooting the ball at a level where he is going to gain the respect of the defense.

And they're going to clog the lane, limiting penetration for Garland and Mitchell to accomplish, leading to those kickout, drive-and-kick opportunities, layoffs inside, turning them into a jump shot team. So I think for Cleveland, that's one of the things. I'd love to see Mobley, like, get better from the perimeter

when it comes to scoring the ball. And maybe it's too soon for that. He's still just a kid. He's only in his second year. But that speaks to their youth as well, like we talked about with Boston. Tatum's still only 24. Mobile is only 21 years old. He's still just a baby in the infancy of his NBA development.

And I think that, you know, I think things have changed over the last several years. in the sense that we always expected, we talked so many times about like a second year leap with guys, and this is a major change that I have witnessed, is that in many cases, guys that I've liked, that the second year people start to fall out of love with somebody that they fell in love with as a rookie, that actually the second year is not the leap year as often,

as the third year for the really good ones because what takes place is guys now are playing immediately and they're good immediately. And they kind of like come into the league and nobody knows them and it's a first time through. And they have this really good season. And then as I always talk about where you are on the chalkboard, now there's a book on, you know, these guys.

There's a book on Evan Mowgli. There's a book on this guy. There's a book on this guy. And teams know how they want to try to defend these guys by year two. And so year two can be a little more of a struggle for these guys. Then they get to go back and say, all right, nobody's doing me like that anymore. And then that third year, they become a radically different player because now they've decided, okay, here's what I brought to the table.

The league figured that out, or now they know how to defend me. And so I've got to go back to the lab and add stuff to my game or alter my game to become a different player. And so sometimes year two could be a little bit of a struggle. And look, Mobley, look around. You think people think, you know,

we were going nutso. over Mowgli. We're going nutso over Lamello. We were going nutso over Scotty Barnes. Scotty Barnes, you heard it. Scottie Barnes has not been good. I know. But I mean, Scotty Barnes, like,

bro, you went rookie in the year. You got everybody's attention now. You don't get to operate how you used to operate, right? And so they all play immediately. Now, unfortunately, one of those guys that we don't get to see is Cunningham. who was going to go through it this year. One quick thing before, Cade, Mowgli's still been really good.

Yeah, of course. It's just about the Cavaliers. They traded all that stuff for Mitchell. If they are to be a team that competes for the NBA finals on the level of Boston and Milwaukee, or even some teams that have been through it, like a Philadelphia type, a Brooklyn type, their lack of spacing on offense will be what kills them,

unless they make changes, or unless they're younger guys get better. You cannot have Mitchell and Garland just have to pull a rabbit out of the hat and have these dominant shooting nights, night in, night out. They need to be a team that can get to the rim with better frequency with perimeter creation

or as a result of mobily being a reliable perimeter. It needs to get better or it has to happen with a trade. But right now, I don't think it's enough and they're not anywhere near that same level. But at least these young guards are still playing. you said, you know, the one guy we're not seeing his kid. I don't know, man. I think they can play with the.

I watch both those games against Boston. They're there with them. I'm not saying they can't play. Like, they're a good team. But, like, to be a great team, to be an NBA finals team, they need better spacing, in my opinion. I may, like, I could be wrong about that. They might find their way there somehow. But I would be willing to bet that they will not, they will flame out in the postseason.

They will not make the finals unless they improve their spacing and some of their half court offensive issues. Because if Mitchell or Garland or both of them aren't, you know, just on like beaming from outside, like it's not going to work. They need other ways. Like we talked about this with New Orleans. They have five ways they can beat you and create offense. With Cleveland, they don't have that benefit.

It's Mitchell and Garland is the source, and that's pretty much it. Yeah. And then what befell's you is what went on in Portland for so long, right? We're so dependent on Lillard and McCollum. So dependent. The good thing is for Cleveland, at least they have defenders around Mitchell and Garland, which Damon and CJ didn't.

And they win with defense in many cases. Yeah. No doubt. Like their defense is awesome. Like with some of the lineups, Jamie Bickerstaff puts out there is like awesome on defense. It's just what can they be? You know?

Yeah. They got some guys for sure. And then that last one. What about Brooke? Are we buying this 8 and 2 in the last 10? Yeah, we talked about Brooklyn on Friday. All right. Oh, then, Cade.

Cade, you had mentioned to me that there was NBA chatter that the Cade thing could be worse than just a, he's out for a little while thing. And true to form, that chatter was validated. We're not going to see Cade the entire season. And that just absolutely sucks. I saw that person last week, and I was like, God, they need Kate Cunningham so bad. I mean, we said it at a time that that was first reported publicly. Yeah. At least like they get a long look at Jane and Ivy and Killian Hayes and see what you got in those guys.

Find out who are our keepers, who do we want to build around with Cade, what's missing from this roster in the long term. And additionally, yes, like it sucks. You don't have Cade Cunningham. You want to see him play. You want to see him get better. But in the long run, being a little bit worse isn't the worst thing in the world. It's not this year with Victor Wenbeniavis out there. There's a story out from James Edwards who covers the Pistons that floated out there,

that Sadiq Bay could be available. And I was like, why? Why? Interesting. What did you think he'd fit the young core? James Edwards is very, very, very plugged in. People are going to be going out. After Bogdanovich.

People are going to be going after Bogdanovich. Like, we know that. And they say that Troy Weaver is, Troy Weaver not interested all that much in, and he loves Bondanovich. It doesn't really want to move him. So what James Edwards reported was that naturally the Pistons have received calls. And he said, based on his conversations,

he thinks Bay is getable. Yeah. But he doesn't know what the right price is. I wonder what the right price is. I'm going to try to look into this on my end, too, because that's an interesting player. Because with Sadiq Bay, like obviously he had this 50-point banger last year, right?

I like him. He's been pretty good through two years in the NBA. But if the Pistons can get someone to overpay, I don't, I'm not against moving him either. I'm not. He's a good player. Don't get me wrong, but I'm not sure. Is he part of your...

Yeah, yeah, no. Is he part of your touch? No, but is he part of your core? It's like, if you're a contending team, will you overpay me for a good player? Yeah. Right?

Who might not be at his upside yet, at his peak, but what am I going to get back? It might be worth it. We'll see. I mean, he definitely was an intriguing player. I had not heard his name. Yeah, I like him. I was shocked by that.

I just didn't see. You know, usually that's the kind of guys that young, you know, young rebuilding teams want to hold on to. Or if you're a team that's going to be willing to give up a first round pick for Jay Crowder, maybe you'd rather give up a pick and a little bit more for Sadiq Bay, a young player is still on their rookie deal who's already good. I'm just like, that's what I mean.

If the pistons are putting him out there as like, hey, he's getable. I actually think he can move the needle. Maybe they can get something very nice for him. Don't you? I think he could be on a good team. Same way Cam Johnson was on a good team. right? Like, I mean,

the guy, I like that's a good parallel. Like Cam Johnson gets drafted to a winner. Yeah. Seek Bay gets drafted to a young, you know, rebuilding team. But Sadiq Bay,

like Cam Johnson, could contribute in a winning situation for sure. Yeah. I would, the thing is, though, he also needs to prove it, though.

Like, he, like this season, he has not been his same self on defense. And maybe that's because he's a product of his environment on some, as you say, a rat team. Right.

But, like, he, I mean, like, he also needs to be better himself to prove, like, hey, I am a guy worthy of giving up some first-round pick-for or whatever it might be. That guy, that guy could be the glove. He could be Gary Payton, it wouldn't matter. I get it. He needs to be better. He needs to be way better defensively. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaking of the glove, they have renamed. not after him, but after other players, these trophies that they are going to be giving out. He once considered the best defensive perimeter player of the NBA. The MVP trophy is not going to be the Michael Jordan trophy. The defensive player of the year trophy is going to be the Jaron Jackson Jr. trophy. That was interesting. Oh, actually, no, the Hakeem Elijah one.

rookie of the year Wilk Chamberlain six men of the year the Malcolm Brogden the Malcolm Brogson rookie of the year Wiltschamberlin

sixth man of the year John Havliceck Most improved player George Miken and the new clutch player of the year is the Jerry West trophy any issues

or any thoughts. Wasn't he like one of a year? And the new. Wasn't he like one of the year? and nine in the finals. Oh, damn. Come on. Mr.

Clyde. Wasn't because of him. He won MVP as a loser. Amazing. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. He was amazing.

What do you think about the awards? You like the way they look? You like the names? Yeah, you know, did they have names? Apparently they did. Okay. But that's the thing.

I have never cared about the names. So that's why I think I've got to come out on this, right? Like, I just know that, like, it's kind of crazy. I do know that the finals MVP was Russell, right? Because Bill would go out there and give it to him. But that's a recent, but that's recent too. Like, that's a new thing. Yeah, but I did know that.

You know? Yeah. But yeah. Well, they're going to have like Michael Jordan come out and hand out the MVP now? I don't think so. He's not going to. Is he? That would be awesome.

I'm not sure. Yeah, that'd be kind of cool. He'd be like always whisper into the guy like, you ain't shit. I don't have, I'm not a designer. I don't have any particular thoughts on the look of the trophies. They look classy. They look nice.

They'll look great, you know, someday behind glass of their million dollar homes and all that. I just think it's weird. Why does the Jordan trophy look so much different than all the others? Like, that one was designed by somebody else. than all the others. It says Mark Smith designed the Jordan trophy and Victor Solomon did all of the others, it seems.

It's a little strange why that one looks so much different than all of the others, that's all. Yeah, and obviously, look, I mean, I would be upset if I was the, if I was Maurice Pottelof's family. Is that what the trophy was called before? That was the MVP trophy. He was the first commissioner. Did you know the MVP was the Maurice Potalov trophy?

I didn't. I had no idea. Yeah. So six decades, in fact, it was named after Potalov. And we never knew. New breaking news. The MVP trophy was named after Maurice Potoloff. It's kind of cool.

They're honoring the legend. I mean, I think it's important to remember NBA history. I mean, like, so often, this is being included, I'm often so focused on the present and what it means for the future when it comes to basketball. But it's nice to have a nod at the past with the players who built the game and made it into what it is today with respect to their roles and their contributions. Like even just calling it, like the most improved being the Miken trophy, that's kind of cool. Everybody knows the Mikan drill. Yep. Right?

I mean, it's just a nice nod to one of the games great. To honor all these guys, yeah, to keep their names. relevant to a younger generation. And the other thing is, I can't wait until we get to the end of the year and we're doing our awards ballot show and we fight toothed nail over the Jerry West clutch player

of the year award. I think the NBA should make it a thing where they renamed the trophies like every 25 years, something like that, or every 50 years even. Yeah. Like maybe someday, you know, there's another guy worthy of being the NBA most valuable player. So we name it after, we name it after whoever. It's going to be pretty hard to beat Jordan.

For sure. I mean, maybe that name gets kept forever. Yeah. I don't know. Oh, but they're going to. It's a nice nod to the past. Well, and look, now, I mean, you know they're going to have to find one to name after LeBron. like biggest liar or something

biggest liar well we'll be in the first page of his book one of my favorite clips was when he was reading that book in the bubble and like Taylor Rooks asked him about it oh yes and his eyes popped out of his head he was like oh he was like a kid getting called on in the classroom

in fairness I'm that guy I've read the first 25 pages of many books but he did no that meme that goes around where he's always on page one. It is so funny. It is so good. This dude's been on page one for 15 years. And you know that he knows about it

because he admitted knowing about the meme of him predicting things in the future. Right? So he also knows about the book meme too. Bro, that's King James. Somebody by his ass a bookmark. Oh. I know.

At least throw on it at least in the back. That's right. If you're going to walk around with a book, you put it like three-fourths of the way back. And then when people ask you, hey, you like that book, be like, yeah, it's great. He should at least lean into it

and start walking into the arena with a book with a bookmark all the way towards the back. It would be funny. And he just started going the other way. It'd be so good. That's the thing. You should just lean in.

to it. It's funny. It'd be like if he'd be like if Karee walked in with a dictionary. You remember when he told them that he'd read the dictionary? Yeah, right. I know the dictionary. The dictionary.

This guy is wild. You ever read the dictionary? Huh? You ever do that, Chris? You ever read the dictionary? No. I never have either. You've heard my vocabulary. No. Yeah, I make heavy use of the

thesaurus. Me too. Thank God. it's online. Yeah. Kevin is always... You write once a year. You're guys who will not fail.

I don't... Remember when Danny Chow who used to edit you? You used to make you sound like a genius. There was this thing I just had... That guy had all the words. Yeah, there was this thing I just had to write for the ringer recently that they're doing that I sent in and...

Oh, yeah. That's coming out this week. And I sent it in and Justa Varyer, the editor sent it back. And I was thinking of myself like, that's not what I wrote, but like it's 100% what I wish I wrote. And I guess that's what a great editor is. I was like, this guy's amazing. Yeah, so funny. He took what I was trying to say and turned it into something totally readable.

that's the job right yeah yeah we have a I don't want to say what it is exactly but the ringer has a an NBA project coming out I think late Tuesday or early Wednesday but definitely this week that I am ecstatic about it's like something

that we've you know flirted with for like four or five years now to see it to set it to see an outcome to fruition and become a reality I'm stoked about it it's a fun project that's going to live on the site. I think NBA fans will really, really, really enjoy. And plus, you can read a Chris Vernon note.

Oh, yeah, I wrote it completely. Justin Barry had nothing to do with it. Yeah, yeah. Chris is a co-author for a note. All the websites are going to be trying to hire. Yes, all of them. You're going to start a substack. That's what you're going to do.

Oh, sub. That's going to do it for today. show. Thank you to Jesse Lopez, our producer as always. Kevin, I'll talk to you on Friday. Have it going.