The Mismatch - Mavs Meltdown with Kirk Henderson and Sam Esfandiari, Plus: Mirin Fader on Keegan Murray and Jabari Smith Jr. | The Void

Episode Date: May 22, 2022

Hey, it’s Kevin, thank you for listening to 'The Void'. In this episode I briefly go over Game 3 between the Heat and Celtics before being joined by editor-in-chief of Mavs Moneyball, Kirk Henderson, and co-host of the 'Light Years' podcast, Sam Esfandiari, to recap Game 3 between the Mavs and Warriors. The Ringer’s Mirin Fader also joins the show to discuss her recent profile on prospect Keegan Murray. Here are today's timestamps: Kirk Henderson and Sam Esfandiari (04:25) - Kevon Looney’s impact (06:15) - What happened to the Mavs? (14:07) - On Jason Kidd not calling a timeout in the third quarter (19:31) - Warriors seem like a different team against the Mavs (25:32) - Warriors' depth outmatches the Mavs' depth Mirin Fader (36:51) - On Keegan Murray (48:59) - Murray will be ready compete in the NBA (01:03:35) - On Jabari Smith Jr. and what he learned from being a part of an NBA family (01:13:26) - Smith’s projection as an NBA player Host: Kevin O'Connor Guest: Kirk Henderson, Sam Esfandiari, and Mirin Fader Producers: Jessie Lopez and Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on the Ringer NBA show and the mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. Hey, thanks for listening to The Void. So I was in Boston for game three of Celtics Heat. And though we're going to be saving a more in-depth conversation about that series for Tuesday's mismatch with Chris Vernon, I just want to share a couple of quick thoughts. thoughts about the game we just saw with Miami winning 109, 103, and what was a really weird game? Celtics had 23 turnovers their most since October 22nd, the second game of the season back when they were sucking. Miami hounded them on defense, but a lot of those turnovers were enforced, man. Jalen Brown had 40 points, but seven turnovers, ball just slipping out of his hands. Jason Tatum had six turnovers and only 10 points, making some really reckless passes. It was just a a really weird game for Boston on the offensive end.

And that Miami team is tough, though, dude. Like the Celtics, they came back from a big deficit. Punch bag in the second half, Marcus Smart turns his ankle, runs out of the tunnel, sprints out, straight to the scorer's table, hits the three moments. After checking in, TD Garden was so damn loud, dude. It was deafening in there. And it didn't matter, though.

Miami just took the punches on the chin, maintained a 10-plus point lead entering the fourth quarter, And, you know, they held on, man. It was an incredible win, a defining, a defining victory, really for the heat. Because all season long, what have they done? It's someone else stepping up. And tonight, it was Bam out of Iowa. He was absolutely amazing.

31 points on 15 of 22 from the floor. Scored from everywhere. It wasn't just stuff at the rim. He had the big jumper on the right wing. I know, like, Heat fans, understandably so, which Bam could be this aggressive every single night. But he has games like this. important moments and this was one of them you know kyle lowry comes back in game the game three but

it's still limited tyler hero was ice cold he only had eight points on 15 shots and jimmy boller didn't play the whole second half because of the knee inflammation bam couldn't have had the night he had at a more perfect moment for the heat and i thought once again this was really representative of who the heat have been this entire season with someone different stepping up at all times and one last thing Jimmy Butler walked out of the arena with a severe limp. Chris Haynes reported that he's likely to play in game for on Monday, which is what I'd also expect, but just sharing what happened for some additional information.

So we'll see with Jimmy Butler ahead of game for, which I'll also be attending. I'm looking forward to that. This was a very fun week in Miami and in Boston, and I recorded some good conversations with some good friends that I hope you enjoy. First up, Kirk Henderson from Navs Moneyball and Sam S. Vondiari from Light Years to talk about the Navs and World.

Warriors and brought on my ringer teammate, Mirren Fader, to learn a lot about the NBA draft. Hope you enjoy those conversations. I appreciate you listening on this weekend and hope you enjoy the rest of it. All right. Now to talk about the Mavericks and Warriors bringing on my good friends, Kirk Henderson, the editor-in-chief from Mavs Moneyball and Sam S. Fondiari, the co-hosts of Light Years Podcasts. All season long, both of these guys have been hosting post-game shows on Spotify Live and I've been thinking the whole year, when's the best time to bring them on? Why not during the Mavs Warrior series? Sam, Kirk, how are you guys doing today?

I think I'm probably doing better than Kirk. But, yeah, doing well. All after losing, I woke up and got to clean bathrooms for two hours. So I've just had a great 12 hours span. Yeah, I mean, it looked like last night was going to be a great night for a while, Kirk. I mean, I'm at a restaurant. I'm home in Massachusetts right now. So I was at a restaurant with my friends watching the game live.

And first half, Luca hits that, you know, 40-foot or 3.4. pointer and we're all amazed the Mavs picking apart the Warriors up by 19 points in the first half. And that lead just quickly evaporated in that third quarter, despite Draymond Green being sidelines with foul trouble, Sam, with everything that did happen in that second half, what unlocked Golden State? I mean, I think you have to start with Looney. I think he has been taken for granted over the last couple years as a quote-unquote core member of this team.

But as we saw in the regular season, I mean, Draymond missed two and a half months with the back injury. And considering the roster they constructed with James Wiseman ultimately never playing a game, you'd have thought they'd have fallen apart. And they did have some drop off defensively without Draymond. But really, it was just loony all year kind of anchoring that defense. And it's got the Warriors to a place which I thought was impossible a year ago, where they're actually able to defend without Dremont. Like in the past,

they've been Dremont's off the floor, defense falls off the cliff. Lutie has gotten so good at anchoring this defense that they can get away with Dremont being off the floor for periods of time. And yeah, you're right. Like it is shocking that you pull off a, you know, all-world defender like Dremont and you can still hold your own.

And then really the big difference didn't come on offense, too. They held their own on defense. Haralabob tweeted last night. You know, Golden State scored one point. point one eight points per play with Draymond on the floor, 1.48 with him off. Better spacing on the offensive end of the floor made it that much more difficult for the Dallas Mavericks to get stops. And I mean, I know, Kirk, that was one of the sources of frustration that you had.

Like Jason Kidd has rightfully received a lot of praise. This entire postseason for the adjustment Dallas is made in each of the year series. But in that second half, like Sam said, while Looney's getting easy buckets at the rim because of Dallas helping off, you know, there's just nothing stopping it. No timeouts were called by Jason Kidd. What went wrong on the Dallas side of things with Kid not calling any timeouts last night, Kirk? Well, in offense, they went away from every single thing

that worked in the first half and decided to play basketball Dark Souls and just really, it was really difficult. They weren't able to score on Looney in game one. So why would you try to score on Looney in Game 2 after they had been pretty ruthlessly targeting Steph and Clay? I want to say Herlovab also tweeted out that in like using just some quick math, he thought that they scored 1.8 points per possession when attacking Clay in the first half. And they just stonewalled, you go from scoring 72 points in the first half,

the 13 points in the third quarter. There's something you got to do differently. There were lots of wasted things, which then resulted in really lackluster defense. I think over time that the warrior offense is just sort of built to grind down defenders. you saw more and more mistakes as the Mavericks went through. But the two things were really linked where they couldn't score and then they didn't defend. And they were getting beat off of like single dribble moves. Like it was late in the fourth quarter, but Maxie Kleba got taken off the dribble by Moody,

who hadn't played. And it was like, why are you challenging a rookie at the three point line with a nine point game? There was just some really confusing stuff that happened. And the Mavericks looked like a team that is very tired by the end of that game. and I'm more than a little concerned moving forward. Yeah, to piggyback that point, I did find it kind of curious that the Mavs didn't try to relentlessly pick on Jordan Pool. It's been kind of a thing all year.

When Poole and Steph are on the court together, a fairly unstoppable combination, just given the attention that Steph gets. But the counter to that, like we saw Memphis do it, and even saw Denver do it a little bit in round one towards the end. It's obviously not the warrior's best defensive combo. So I would have assumed Dallas would have tried to go after Jordan Poole to get him off the court, but that just didn't happen.

It's strange because, you know, you mentioned them targeting Steph in the first half. They did it effectively when Reggie Bullock was the guy Steph was defending. They brought him into pick and rolls with Luca. And obviously, we've seen both the games the series Golden State is pressuring Luca and those. But it worked. Like they scored 1.7 points per chance when Bullock was the screener for Luca. But in the second half, you know, Kerr made the adjustment, put Steph on Dorian Finney Smith, who is, you know, still a very effective player, just not as mobile, not as potent of a shooter,

you know, off of movement as Bullock. And it just didn't work as well. Like in this series, we've seen Luca Pickett rolls with Steph as the screener defender 42 times. Looney, it's been 22 times. The next closest is 10 with pool. Clay's been the screener defender only eight times total in the entire series. That's all from Second Spectrum. Like, it's clear they want to go at Steph.

They want to have Looney on the Switch. Sam, you said earlier how great Looney's been. It just seems to me like the Mavs right now, it's kind of like a boxing match. Do you think they're trying to tire out, Stefan Looney? Is this about like later in the series trying to get these guys worn down? Because it's not working right now. I definitely think they're trying to tire stuff down. Like that's been, I feel like the coach Jason Kid,

is often most similar to as Tyloo, and Tyloo did that every time the Warriors match up with the Cavs. It was just get Stevin every action to wear him down so he has no legs on offense. It's not a bad strategy, like, big picture-wise, but the funny thing about

the Warriors is they might be the only team in the league where their bigs are better guarding one-on-one on the perimeter than their guards actually are. So every time you go for a switch with Looney or Dremont, you're actually switching into an advantageous matchup for the Warriors.

They'd rather have Looney switched on to Luca than Jordan Pool. And so I think I wonder if part of it's just, it's counterintuitive because most teams, if you get a big switched on to Luca, that's a win for Dallas. But the Warriors, you almost want him just to ISO cards. Kirk, do they have time to be playing this long game trying to wear them down? That's where my head is. Like, there is no long game if you lose four times. what are we what is it's a very confusing sort of strategy in my opinion and i'm not

the the mavericks trying to wear out step curry while also wearing out their own players is really questionable because during phoenix smith and reggie bollock i've not looked at the minutes numbers lately but they have to be among the remaining playoff leaders in minutes per game with this sort of thing and it's it's something that i'm not entirely understanding what the point of the strategy is, if you have other options like pool, like you're mentioning, in terms of,

because we thought it matters money ball that they were going to target pool pretty relentlessly, and that just hasn't been the case. It's more than a little confusing, and I'm really not sure where they go from here. Yeah, to your point, I'm looking at it,

like Dore and Finney Smith played 42 minutes, Bullock played 44, now they're on a plane, fast turnaround to the next game. Not great. And for what it's worth, I just pulled up the numbers. Reggie Bullock leads everybody,

in the postseason with 591 total minutes. Finney Smith is second at 568. Next closest is Tatum at 529, then Brunson at 528. So they have three of the top four and total minutes played in the postseason right now. And yeah, like those guys, like Kirk, we're kind of seeing the difference here, having those guys chase around step and play and pull all game long. It's even more demanding for them to be playing these minutes against the Warriors than it is in past matchups. Yeah.

And that's been the thing that's come home to Roost. And granted, it's the Western Conference finals. So can't really complain too much. But the Maverick's depth has been a lingering issue all season. Second year forward, Josh Green still looks like he is new to the game of basketball, just to put it kindly. The Warriors laughed when he got an open corner three last night because he's just, I mean, you go look at the tape.

They don't care. Luca posts up, I want to say it was like Looney in the second half. And over in the far right corner is Josh Green. green. Steph comes all the way to the elbow. He does not care that green is there. Frank Nilakina had to play 10 minute, or he played four minutes and was a negative 10, which is really, he took three, three pointers in the four minutes, you know, got to, got to respect the guts to come into the game firing, you know, in a Western Conference playoffs. Three too many, to be fair. Three too many. Yeah, well, two of them had open paths to a dunk

if you go watch the tape. I went back and looked because I thought I was a crazy person. And, And the maverish just don't have the depth to keep up with the Warriors if they're going to make the sort of mistakes that they've made through two games. Sam, you've seen the Warriors have a lot of just unstoppable runs throughout the years. How surprised were you a kid not calling a timeout in the middle of that third quarter to try anything? Because that's abnormal, right? Yeah, I was, I mean, I was incredibly surprised because that's been one of the most common coaching strategies against the Warriors. wants Steph to get hot. Granted, Steph didn't get particularly hot in the third quarter.

But, like, this team has been known since Steve Kurt took over for these, like, avalanche type runs in the third quarter where they come back 18, 20 points on a team. So I was shocked. He didn't even, he didn't call a timeout once in the third quarter, I think. I think Kirk, I mean, like what I noticed on your tweet last night, you tweeted about how you're frustrated him not calling the timeout. But what was worse is the fact that after the game, he was asked by a reporter, how do you evaluate when to call a timeout and slow a run. And he said, you only have so many timeouts.

I can't blow them all on the third. You can't always ask the coach to take a timeout. Sometimes you get to put the ball in the basket to stop a run. What are your thoughts on that? Well, funny you asked. I was telling you're producing before the show. I went and looked at both the play-by-play for ESPN and NBA.com to make sure I wasn't crazy. Pulled up the third quarter, did a little control F searched for the word timeout. Jason Kidd did not call a timeout in the third quarter. He had this to say, I have the quote pulled up as well. Also, this is a great learning experience for a young team to go through to understand what it means to stop a run. Guys, it's the Western Conference Finals. This is not a learning. This is not a workshop. This is the path

to get to the finals. So there's so many wrong things in that one sentence because one, he didn't call a time now. Two, the Mavericks aren't young. And three, this is not a learning experience. This is the whole enchilada. I'm really, it was classic. Like, this is the first time I've seen this season. Jason Kidd pulled some of the things that he used to do in Milwaukee in Brooklyn, which was essentially to throw up his hands and act like he's just an employee, a helpless bystander. It was interesting, to say the least. And it's kind of the complete opposite of what we saw in the Phoenix series, right? Like, he gained, like, rightfully so a lot of praise for the way he coached the second half of that series and just kind of like the energy level. And the way, the way of,

they basically just tow Phoenix's soul there. It's like complete opposite. I think had he even called, you know, he said that can't blow all of his time out from the third quarter, had he used him all, what were some of the potential solutions? Like, is there something they could have defensively not helping his heart off of Looney?

Was it like emphasizing more, you know, driving kick, or is there something the Warriors were doing that was preventing that that either of you guys saw? I mean, for the Dallas perspective, it was putting the ball in the basket. And that leads to their defense playing a little bit better. But the fact that they scored 13 points in the whole frame,

it's a good question of whether the focus on attacking Looney was the coaching staff's emphasis or whether Luca decided to do that because he has that freedom. And at some point where it doesn't work four times in a row, that's the adjustment that I probably would have gone for. Or attacking the rim, do something different. defensively, the guys were tired. Yeah, I mean, it's obviously the offensive end for them there.

Like you said, five for 19, 13 points. In general, not good. I just keep going back to how they let the Warriors get away with Steph and Poole playing together for seven straight minutes. And I want to say the Warriors made up majority of that deficit in that span. The fact that Luca maybe went at Steph or cool once each for seven to eight minutes in the quarter was surprising. Yeah, yeah, that was absolutely surprising.

And they also seem to be settling for a lot more threes, not quite as much driving kick in that second half. And I mean, we're talking about kid not making the proper adjustments in this game after a really strong postseason for him. I feel like Steve Kerr's done one of the best jobs he ever has. Like, it's been cool to watch what he's thrown at Dallas so far in this series. Like, they're pulling out zone out of nowhere. You know, they're switching up matchups midgame.

We talked earlier about how they had Curry on Bullock, then they switched him to DFS in the second half. It's just these little minor adjustments and some of the scheme adjustments that are at least always keeping the Maver's having to think about what they're going to be going against when Dallas is on offense and Golden States on defense. He's been super quick. The other one I wanted to call out was Damien Lee. He played in the first half of game two.

Did not go well. He played like four or five minutes, and I want to say Dallas went just ballooned. the lead from like four points to 15 points in four minutes there. Immediate does not go back to him in the second half. Steve Kerr of maybe three, four years ago would have gone back to him. Now he's coaching very, very quickly, I guess it's the best way to put it. It's like he's not playing the long game, kind of the opposite of what we were just saying

that Jason Kidd was doing. I think in this series, so it's only been two games. And like last round, Phoenix was up to O on Dallas and, you know, Chris Paul. falls apart. I don't think that's going to happen with Steph. That would be shocking if that were to happen. Me and Chris Vernon on the mismatch both picked Dallas to win the series, which might be very dumb if it turns out that this continues the way it's going right now. But I think one of the things we talked about was in the last six minutes and 30 seconds of that Memphis Golden State series, Golden State just stepped on their throw. It looked more like the team that we saw years ago, like we've seen at their highest points this season. And with Steph, you mentioned earlier how he didn't do anything really in the third quarter offensively.

But fourth quarter, four or four, ten points. You tweeted out the stats. You know, he's averaging 9.5 points in the fourth quarter throughout his postseason, 57% from the field, 44% of three, 90% from the line. He's been absolutely sensational in the fourth quarter. Even though the warriors aren't quite at their peak, of course, they can still tap into that sometimes. And Kirk, like, are we seeing?

that with more frequency than perhaps you might have expected considering how great the Dallas defense has been throughout this entire postseason or is it like an uncontrollable and Golden Station is going to get into the zone regardless of what your defense is doing? That's what made third quarter game one really frustrating to watch because the Warriors got a lot of easy looks to go down. And when shooters see the ball go through the hoop, it just becomes an ocean. And watching the difference between how Curry and the Warriors played versus the

Rizzleys versus how they played versus Mavericks. It's like they've put on their business pants and are ready to go to work. It's a different team. There's something to be said about playing well at the right time, which is exactly what the sons did not do. And the Mavericks had found at that point in year. And what was kind of left unsaid about Curry going nuts in the fourth quarter was that he was targeting Luca really bad, like really picking on Luca.

and this is the second it's going to happen to Luca just like it's happened to Steph but at a certain point a guy and team has to figure out how to stop it now I will say I thought Luca was at least trying a little harder but this is where the progression

of his game needs to go where if he's going to get picked on he needs to be able to find a way to be effective on defense in some way and I want to throw in there he did this same thing in round one and round two round one against Yokic

did not really go at him until the fourth quarter when he was looking for that switch on every possession, kind of like what he did in game two against Luca. And same against Memphis when they finally put Stephen Adams back in there. Didn't really target him until the fourth quarter

and he was trying to close the game to get the switch to the point where I think it's almost strategic. I mean, we all know Steph kind of prides himself on being in amazing shape with like running a bazillion miles a game. Part of it is kind of like preserving yourself.

running the offense, letting maybe Pool or Clay or Wiggins take a more primary role. So at the end of the game, when you feel like you have better legs than, say, Luca, that's when you kind of go for the kill. That's been kind of something they've done all playoffs. I'm glad you

mentioned their endurance because it's like, you know, Steph doesn't wear down. Draymond's in better shape. Granted, it was another strange game for him. Looney is suddenly healthier than ever playing career high in minutes, setting career high and points. Wiggins is an elite athlete. Pool has energy, even though he has, you know, his shortcomings on defense, so on and so forth. Like, the

Warriors are a well-conditioned team. And whereas with Luca, on second spectrum, they have it at, he's been targeted in the pick and roll 35 times, 12 of those instances. And so a third of them have been in the fourth quarter. And on those plays, the Golden State Warriors are scoring 1.4 points per chance, which is an absurdly high number that's working for Golden State. And you're Right, like that's the area for Luca that he needs to get better. Because I think there's so many ways Luca, like people compare this year to LeBron when he made his first finals, right? And I think at the time with LeBron, he had some weaknesses in terms of, like, positioning. But he was like such an obviously a freakish athlete that I think he could make up for that.

Endurance was never a question with those young LeBron years. That's the difference between this Luca now. He's this offensive juggernaut. He's averaging 33 points in his postseason career. He is that guy. He's amazing. It's just the defense hasn't caught up yet for him in that sense. Is that really like the missing piece here, Kirk?

Is that Luca being better on defense? Or is that unfair to expect considering everything else that he has to do? Well, the everything else he has to do is probably a broader conversation. But if he wants to be this involved and this is just kind of going to be the nature of the game for him to where getting in and staying in supreme shape the way James Harden, I don't like James Hardin-Luca comparisons, but Hardin was a tank for years down there in Houston where he was just all, he played lots of minutes and he would never look tired.

And that's an element of what that Luke is going to have to get to. And one wonders if this is going to be when he figures that out. It's very difficult, I think, between the previous few years' schedule and COVID and national team stuff for him to really, you know, make that a priority. But I think he gets there. Every time I think that there's not much for him to improve, he comes back and is different at something new.

You know, random overhead flip passes, for example. Like, he's, he never fails to surprise me as basketball player. Is that Luca Brunson combo good enough? Because I think there are certain times throughout the postseason.

I'm like, yeah, it is when you have Brunson going off against Utah. He's had some high scoring games, including on Friday night's game too. But, like, sometimes when he's your last line of defense on the inside,

I'm like, boy, I wish they had another bigger guy here in the situation more than, you know, tiny Brunson. If Brunson's willing to take three-point shots, I kind of think it is. Prior to last night's game, he'd had one game against Utah, where he was six to ten from three. And then every other game in the playoffs, he was a combined 11 of 48. And his ability to shoot, I think, makes him a lot more dangerous because it increases his efficiency. I think he's a pretty good defender for his size. Him and Luca obviously aren't like a top tier back court there. But if the Mavericks continue to surround Lugidantitch with, you know, solid wing depth,

I think that the two of them could end up making it work. I also don't think the Mavericks have much of a choice because their books are pretty, pretty rough. You mentioned adding wing depth. That's where I think with Golden State, like in last night's game, Hono Porter had that nice play. I think it was like a fake handoff top of the key and he drove to the rem. It's like, oh, yeah, I kind of forgot. Otto Porter isn't just a spot-up three-point shooter.

this is a guy who is a bucket getter in college and earlier in his NBA career. He has skill with the ball on his hands. Moody coming in, possibly just taking Damien Lee's spot, at least in last night's game. Like Sam, I think you look at Dallas, not having a lot of support behind DFS and

Bullock, and then you look at Golden State. They just feel like the deeper team right now as well. They are, and they're down a couple guys, obviously, GP2 in the Memphis series with the elbow going down. he would have been playing Damien Lee or Moses Moody's minutes.

And then Andre Godala, I mean, who knows if he's going to come back at this point? He is older and he's been dealing with stuff all year. But that was a point of emphasis for this roster. It was like just try to put as much usable versatility around what they have. So that it's just kind of a next man up mentality. And like, obviously, Moses Moody is a 19-year-old's not as good as GP2, but he can play. He can play in these games.

That's something that the Warriors haven't had. Maybe most teams in leagues don't have just that much depth on the wings. And Gary Payton seems like he will be back for the finals if the Warriors do make it. So that would help a lot in a series against Boston or Miami. When you watched Dallas, Sam, and considering the success of Looney, by the way, how fun is it to watch Looney just doing what he's doing right now? How fun are Warriors fans having? It's the best because it's so fun to root for.

kind of a guy who had to work this hard to get here given like I mean he missed the first two years of his career with hip injuries like we kind of thought he was not going to last the NBA because he had the hips of the 60 year old you know and then

just to see him continue to get better and I mean he is just kind of a boring glue guy right like Luni's like no one's pulling up Luni highlights on YouTube I mean maybe me but like you know it's not like You know, it's not like watching Jordan Poole where you're like, you know, he sizzles you with like the crossover and some of the finishes and some of those moves.

So, but yeah, it's it's just so rewarding to see like a guy who's stuck with it and figured away out. I mean, I guess the way you describe him, you know, I'll spin this to Kirk. He's not a guy you're pulling up highlights of. And yet, you know, he's 10 of 14 last night for 21 points, 5 of 5 in game 1 for 10 points. He's effectively defending on the perimeter despite moving quite slowly. Is this the point, Kirk, where it becomes obvious that Dallas needs another big better than Powell and Kleba? Oh, Lord, yes. They started the year with six centers on the roster.

They ended up cutting two of them. They brought in Marquis, Chris. The Mavericks have had, and I sometimes get into hyperbole with this, but they've had god-awful roster building for the better part of a decade, only they got Luca and Brunson in one draft, which much like Dirk Novitsky in 1999, tends to paper over a lot of mistakes. You know, when you have the key player,

you have some wiggle room. And the Mavericks, you know, they've essentially had a lot of the same roster from the trade for Chris Staps for Zingis in January 2019, up until they sent Chris Stap's Porzingis to Washington, D.C. for Spencer Dimwitty.

And they just didn't really change out that many players, kept trying and trying, and not really building any depth. They've not done well, with the draft, just to put it kindly. It's about bites of the apple, in my opinion. In 2020, they had Josh Green and they selected your guy. Tyrell Terry up to Stanford.

And then I can't even remember. I ranked him way too high. People talk about my Killian Hayes mistake, not about the Tyrell Terry mistake. Right. But it happens. And it's a, you know, you do a comparison to like the Warriors. And it's just when you hit on these late brown guys, it makes all the difference in the world as you're building towards something. And when you don't, you end up having to play

Frank Millicina and Marquis Christ, actual minutes in a 2022 playoff game. I mean, doesn't this really speak to, like you said, the importance of not just hitting those picks, but investing in those picks and keeping some of those guys because the discussion before the year for Golden State was, well, should they flip Wiseman and Cominga and Moody for an established star? And, you know, whether it's the right answer or not, it's looking like they chose the correct path, at least as of now, when you have Jordan Poole excelling the way he has, when Moody can come off the bench and give you some pretty good minutes out of nowhere, when maybe Cominga in a year or two is your big 6-8 versatile defender who's playing a

glue guy role for you, when you keep Looney for years, you know, despite, you know, having so many other bigs come through over that time. And then he has these big-time performances for you. I mean, I grew up rooting for some great teams, you know, watching the Patriots. You know, like, and I saw the Patriots always invest in young guys, and I'd always get mad at them keeping or drafting these guys, these offensive linemen, Logan Mancings out of nowhere. And yet they become vitally important players. That's how you sustain success. It's the way the Spurs did it. It's the way the Warriors are doing it right now, Sam, it seems.

And I want to also call out, they made a bunch of very smart. signings on the cheap, which are allowing them to play the long game with a Wiseman or a Kuminka. I thought Kuminka had a very positive rookie year, considered he was a one and done, but he's not playing the playoff rotation. It doesn't really matter because Otto Porter was the perfect type of veteran for them to sign because they find GP2. Both those guys are in their late eight, late 20s. They're kind of right at the age range of players you expect to be impacting the playoffs. Their ability to kind of find guys in the margins was almost as important as draft and developed because, you know, Moody had a little cameo that was nice in game two,

but he hadn't played the playoffs prior to that, you know? And the fact that they are able to invest in like those high picks but not have to use them right now is only made possible by kind of nailing some of those marginal free agency signs. Can I complain and just note that two of your role players on the Warriors are a former number one overall pick in Andrew Wiggins and a former number three overall pick. I mean, it's true. It's true. You do bring up a point.

Like, auto, obviously, it was kind of a health thing. Or like, you know, can we keep him healthy? But like, the talent wasn't a question. And then, you know, Wiggins, I mean, you kind of have to, you know, begrudgingly tip your cap to ownership for willing to pay that much for. a player who fills a vital role, but is still just a role player, right? I mean,

I think on the Dallas side of things, you could say they have Chris an eighth pick, Nillikina, another eighth pick. It's right in the heart. I'm sorry, Kirk. Sorry to that to you. And I love Frank Nillikina.

He's had some great moments on defense. You see that Photoshop of him looking three times the size as Chris Paul and David Booker? That was actually a real photo. That was real. I'm just salty. I know. I'm sorry.

One other note here, not to spin it ahead to the offseason the series is still happening. Is there a big you have your eyes on, Kirk? I have a real spice to take in that I think the Mavericks, if they were to pursue a big, they should pursue John Collins. No, I don't think Atlanta would ever do business with them ever again, at least with the team that they have, you know. But I think he does a lot of the things that their bigs can't do. He's a really, he improved on defense. He tries hard. The effort is there where I think. I think in previous years it might not have been. But, you know, bigs are probably the, in terms of supply and demand,

they're the one, they're the most readily available commodity. And I think the Mavericks have to kind of try to mix and match. Their books don't really allow for very much. So they're going to have to get creative. They're going to have to see if there are any, you know, players that, you know, maybe might want to play with Luca Donchish in a role where he makes them look good. Because he, again, I can't emphasize enough the fact that Dwight Powell for his Achilles in January 2020 and is starting in the Western Conference Finals.

Grannie, he plays like five minutes, but magically was undrafted. Like, there's real options here if there are players that are interested that would like to, you know, Luca makes guys look better. It's on white side to the Mavericks. Yeah, it's on white side. Oh, if that's your marquee signing this off season, hmm, it's not going to be happy. Well, you know, make for me, me being mad online is my brand. So, well, I mean, Aiton, if Aiton would be pretty hilarious, but I think it'd be.

be pretty difficult to do just between the restrictive free agency and stuff like that. How about Nick Claxton? Love Nick Claxton. How about Gobert at 40 plus million? No, thank you. Okay. No, thank you on Gober. Moamba!

Yeah, how about that? Low costs? Kind of love the Moamba idea. Kind of love it. I might be a sick person at this point. We're not sure. I mean, I think for the Bomba side, that's intriguing. Because like you said, paring with Luca for a year or two.

you know, restore some value. Slight upgrade from being set up by Cole Anthony. Oh, yeah. Big time. All right. Last thing here. So it's 2-0. Returning to Dallas. If this series goes back to Golden State 2-2,

what went wrong for Golden State, Sam? One, they didn't hit shots. Roll players didn't hit shots. That's always a fear when you go on the road. It's easier to shoot at home than it is on the road. Two, the Mavericks found a way to play Jordan Poole off the floor, and the Warriors' offense, just in general, got a lot harder because it was just Steph as the only guy I can dribble.

How about you, Kirk? For me, I think it's Maxie Klebeau finds his mojo again. He's had two very ineffective games. They almost escaped with one of an ineffective game last night, but he's been very important to their role. That, and I think the Dallas crowd has been shockingly good. the in the playoffs, and I'm hopeful that that sort of causes some challenges for warrior players. But, you know, it was Sam's own co-host, Andy Liu, who at about two in the morning, my time, tweeted hashtag Mabs and Six.

So I think we could also blame Andy if things were to head back to San Francisco. He is a, he's nothing, it's not a good jigs. Hashtag stuff better. Yeah. Thank you so much, guys, for joining. Absolutely. Yep. All right.

And now joining the pod to talk about the NBA draft is the ringer.com's Mirren Fader. Marin, how are you doing today? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing really well.

You published on Thursday an article about Keegan Murray a top draft prospect in the NBA draft from Iowa forward 6-8. If anybody wants to read it after you listen to this podcast, the headline is,

if you don't know Keegan Murray yet, you will soon enough. Mirren, what intrigued you about Keegan Murray. Why did you want to write a story about him? And can you also just describe him as a player for listeners who may have no idea who Keegan Murray is? Yeah. So Keegan Murray plays for Iowa. And I saw him torch Indiana with eight threes. And I was like, who is this guy? And why have I not heard much about him? And he was just tearing through the NCAA tournament and just, you know, I just kept hearing his name, you know? And I was like, why don't I know much about him? Like I hear so

much about the other prospects. Chad and Jabari, how come I've never heard anything about Keegan? And the constant feedback I would hear was high character guy, comes from a great family, very, very driven. And that's sort of what I look for when I want to profile somebody. I want to profile somebody that doesn't think they're a finished product. And so, you know, really his game also intrigued me. So this guy, he plays tremendous defense. He can really stretch the floor with his three-point shooting. He's just one of those guys. that's very poised at all times. He's just smooth.

He can play multiple positions. He's just very versatile. And when you have that with all the intangibles, we just talked about it. I was like, wow, this guy's game, I mean, it immediately translates to the next level. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think anybody who first popped on March Madness

and saw Keegan Murray, you know, maybe they're Googling his stats. They're like, who, Kegan Murray, okay, oh, he's averaging 24 points per game, nine rebounds, two assists, 40% from three. And they're like, huh, you know, seven points per game last year. He goes from, you know, coming off the bench playing

18 minutes per game because he's playing behind Garza, who as you mentioned in the story, one national player of the year. He goes off to the NBA. Opportunity opens up for Kegan Murray. But like he is, you know, seems like somebody who's tailor made for the NBA with his defensive versatility, the shooting ability, and the selflessness. I think with him, he's a good target, you know, for you to profile because I think Keegan Murray, is he at worst is going to be a really good role player in the NBA for many, many years

with this skill set. I agree. I think first of all, what you mentioned about him, you know, not really having a flashy numbers game as far as his first season, I feel like because he's been on both ends of the coin coming off the bench, being a role player, and then

being a superstar where he's the man and he's playing 40 minutes a night, I feel like as a player, if you have that experience of playing a role and also being a superstar, you don't have the same ego that says, I need X shots per game. So no matter where you plug this guy in, he's used to being coached and he's used to not having the ball in his hands 24-7. He's learned other strategies and things like defense and boxing out and doing the little things that really, I think, will allow him to flourish at the next level.

And I think because you watch him take so many leaps every single year, that's a guy that he's going to be so much better in year three than year four than five. Like he's somebody that's just his trajectory and potential for growth is so high. You noted in the story how right now we're 6 foot 8, 215 pounds. But as a freshman way back in high school, he was only 6 foot 145 pounds. It wasn't until he was a junior where he kind of blossomed up to 6 foot 6 as a senior, 6 foot 7, grows a little bit more. But he's 22 years old.

He will turn 22 years old and off. August. What was his path from, you know, this late bloomer in high school that didn't grow into his body until he was an upperclassman to now he's 22 years old. It's a sophomore. After finishing his sophomore year as he enters the NBA, what happened between high school and now for him declaring for the drafts? Yeah. Well, so all his life, he was able to shoot because he was so small and so frail, his dad, Kenyon, who also played for Iowa, taught him that you're going to have to be fundamentally sound. You're going to have to have range. And he just wasn't. not strong enough to go into the paint. So he develops this super silky shot and really became an intelligent player because he didn't really have the body to rely on. So by the time he's in high school and he's not really getting looks because even though he's growing and he has this late growth spurt, he's still very skinny. And college coaches are hesitant. They think he's not big enough, not aggressive enough. So he contemplates all the different levels. He has five Division two offers.

he's thinking about the junior college level. He decides to go the prep route. And it turned out to be the most brilliant decision because at his year at DME Academy in Florida, he gets to develop, he gets to grow, he gets to learn, and he gets to come into his body, you know? And I think his story is so important because it's very hard to predict potential for these guys.

Like not all of them are going to be fully developed when they're 18, 19, 20 years old. So he takes this extra year and says, okay, this was really hard. I had to pack up my life. I had to go to this prep school. I was not recruited and highly touted as all my peers were, but I learned to work harder, smarter, and really figure out who I am as a person and as an athlete. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned him figuring out who he is as a person. I thought it was kind of cool within the story. You had some stories about him back in eighth grade, committing hard falls. It seems like, you know, like any young kid,

There's some growing up to do. But you know, you read those stories when now the feedback from NBA teams is Keegan Murray is like, it's perfect teammate. Like that's the feedback you hear today. But, you know, I think he's a good example of the growth physically. Like we're talking about the growth sport. It took time for him to grow under his body. Like he hasn't been 6 foot 8 over 200 pounds for that many years in his life. Like he's going to be 22 as an NBA rookie.

But I don't think he's 22 in terms of like his traditional developmental arc. from a physical standpoint and, you know, emotionally, you know, intelligently, his personality. Like, was there any, you know, good stories or your favorite story or anecdote that you have within that about Kegan or how he grew as a person into what teams now describe as like a plus teammate? Yeah, I mean, I loved that there was this one game. It was, I think it was in the eighth grade and Kegan tries to draw a foul on a three and the ref doesn't call it. And Kegan is so pissed. He's like on the ground. and he's pouting.

And it's the worst thing because the game doesn't just stop, obviously. So his man sprints down the other side, gets the easy basket, and Kagan's team loses by three. And afterward, his brother, Chris, who I also talk about in the piece, they are identical twins.

They're both the same height. Chris plays at Iowa, and he is deciding whether to go back or go to the NBA. They're like in eighth grade, and Chris is holding his brother accountable. So their dad, who's coaching the team, he says to everyone,

how many of you think that Kegan should play next game? Because next game was for third place. And it mattered. It was a playoff game. And everyone, like, Kegan's the best player, right? So everyone is like Kegan should play. We should let him play. Chris folds his arms, the brother.

Chris folds his arms. And he was selfish and he lost us the game. And Kegan apologized to the whole group. And again, it's moments like that that are just teachable moments that are like, you're not special because you're good at basketball. You have to be a good person and teammate. Like those things matter as well.

There was one anecdote, I will say, that did not make the piece that I really loved. When he was in sixth grade, I think it was his elementary school had this like relay race days and all the grades race against each other on the track. And he looked at the signups and he noticed that nobody had signed their name next to a classmate who happened to be autistic. And Kegan didn't hesitate. He put his name down next to the boys. So Kegan and the boy are going. And Kegan goes first and he gets this huge lead. He's a great athlete, even in track.

Then he passes the baton. The boy really struggles. All the opponents pass them by. They're clearly not in the race anymore. Kegan goes into the race and he goes next to the boy and he directs him and encourages him all the way through. And they finish so dead last like everyone's already finished long before. And the parents are clapping and cheering, getting emotional. It's like a movie.

And Kegan is almost bothered by this spectacle. He doesn't understand why people are praising him for doing the right thing. He's like, you should just treat people with dignity and kindness. And I feel that the fact that he knew that as a sixth grader is just such an indication of like the kind of person he is. Sure. I mean, and also the influence of his parents too. The family as a whole, right? Yeah, that's such a great point.

I mean, his parents would say things like, you know, respect the game, love the game. You don't treat your opponent that way. One other anecdote that was cut was called the Murray motto. So the mom, Michelle, had the Marie motto, and she would tell the boys, the Murray motto is, go out, go hard and have fun. And I just think as a family, they had their values in the right place. Yes, basketball is really important, but it's not everything. Like, they really stressed to me.

They wanted their boys to understand that, you know, basketball could take you places, but it doesn't define you as a human being. And I think they were able to have bigger identities outside of basketball because it wasn't this thing that was handed to them. as successful, you know, early on. So I do think the reason, one of the reasons Kagan is so comfortable in his own skin is because all the success came late. And you really got to know yourself and know your worth, you know, before others do.

Yeah, I mean, he absolutely had to work for it. He, I mean, it's not that I don't want to use, say he failed because he didn't fail. He was just part of his journey, but he didn't, he wasn't rewarded with, oh, you're a, you're a top prospect. You're the next big thing. He didn't hear that. I know you had it in there that his Iowa coach didn't offer the scholarship. I mean, even he had watched them but didn't believe that he could be part of their program

until after, you know, he left high school and went down a different path. Yeah, and it just shows you that it's very easy for players to fall into the cracks. And just because you're not recruited or rank highly as a middle schooler or even a high school or it doesn't mean you can't make it to the NBA. Everybody has a different path. There just happen to be more circuitous. The bodies are really weird. things. Some people grow immediately. Some people don't. But I think when you put time into developing the

mind and the mental side of things, that's what puts you in position to succeed when everything catches up. I loved Kegan's quote that praise is worse than criticism. Oh yeah. That was good. Because it's number one, it shows his maturity and how thoughtful he is. But I think that really sort of illuminates what you were just talking about, about not being told you're amazing from a young age because if he was, it's almost worse than criticism. You get a big head. You stop working. So I just love that even though people are now saying he's amazing and praising him and, oh, you're going to be a top five pick, he really is able to realize that, like, I don't need to fall in love with that either. Yeah, and there was also the quote from his dad in there. I mean,

it's cliche, but it's 100% the truth. And one of the greatest life lessons you can have is control your controllables. You know, and that also seems to be something like, there's the story in there about how, you know, sometimes people criticize him or leave comments on Instagram about, you know, he's always not overly emotional on the court. It is more soft spoken, but, you know, he's the type of person who, that his leadership style isn't vocal and out there. It's, it's doing it by example. And like he said in the story, it's really just another person typing behind the screen. He's focusing on the things that are in his control to optimize who he is in his current place, current situation, whether it's leaving high school without a D1

scholarship, whether it's getting an opportunity at Iowa playing behind national player of the year, or whether it is actually getting that full-time starting gig. It seems like every step of the way he has managed to make the most of opportunities available given his current skill level or current situation. And now as he enters the NBA, I mean, that praise is going to keep on coming a lot for him, but he seems to be, because of that background you're talking about, ready to handle that. Yeah, I think no matter what situation you plug him into, no matter how high he goes in the draft, no matter how low, like the effort's going to be the same, the work ethic is going to be the same, the coach ability is going to be the same, and the control your controllables, he's

never going to pout because you don't play him. He's never going to get really hyped because you say he's the best you've ever had. Like, he's so even keeled. And to your point about his demeanor, It's so interesting to me, and I'm sure you find this as well because you do so much draft work. Every year without fail, there's always the guy where he's so quiet. He's so brash. It's like there's no winning. If you're super brash and you're super loud, they think you have an attitude problem. If you're super kind and you have a good demeanor and you lead by example, but you're not so vocal, then they're like, well, you're not loud enough.

Is he a go-to guy? Does he want it bad enough? Does he love basketball? You know, it's all about that. And it's like, you know, how many examples of guys do we need to see in the NBA who lead by example, who exhibit leadership in other ways to know that not being vocal is not an indication of whether you care or not? And I think Keegan's a great example of that. I think one of the real character flaws within the story is you said he hasn't tried sushi yet. Okay.

So there's that. And then when we were at the restaurant, they gave him complimentary desserts. And they gave us carrot cake. And he was like, does it taste like carrots? You know, just things of like. And you put it there. You only had guacamole for the first time a couple weeks ago. You know, it's just, it's so new.

Everything is new. But it's like, again, he, I just respect so much that he doesn't care what that looks like or sounds like. He's just like, he's like, yeah, I haven't. You know, he's busy getting the work in. He's not, you're not going to have to worry about him going out partying or drinking. He's literally just wants to play basketball. To be honest, I get Yonis vibes from him as far as like family first, work ethic, priority straight.

That makes sense. I mean, I also didn't try sushi until I actually, after I got hired, no, that's a lie. The first time I had sushi, I think I was 22. I was in Boston, hanging out with some friends, I think, and I had mall sushi. And this is my first time ever having it. And I almost wanted to throw up. It was disgusting. It was so bad.

But my second time having sushi, It was at Sugarfish in L.A. This is after I got hired by the ringer. And I go in there. I got the, you know, the trust me, you know, on the sugarfish menu. Trust me. And they bring out the shishimi. First bite, I was like, oh, no, what did I get myself into? This is horrible. And then the second bite. Mmm, very good. Third bite. Oh, my, oh my goodness. And then they bring out everything was delicious. And now I love sushi. So for Kagan Murray, he has a lot of time to explore great food because I wasn't a big. Mexican food fan in Massachusetts. The Mexican food up there is not great. You know, in L.A. as an L.A. need of beer. It's the best. It's so good. California. I'm sorry. We're very lucky. Like, I don't want to brag, but we are very lucky. I told him, I was like, we need to do a brunch tour. Like, you need to, like, we need to go to different places. And he's just like, okay. You know, we're not going on brunch tour. He's going to be in the gym. I think for him, like, there's the line and the story about after every game, he asks himself if he has any regrets.

I mean, he will regret not having sushi sooner. But game-wise, though, I come away reading your piece. It confirms a lot of the things you hear about him as a person. But these anecdotes are someone who is 22 years old in terms of maturity level, but actually well beyond that with his approach and perspective of life. But with the more mature game, I mean, like if you're drafting somebody in this high in the draft, you want to have some level of certainty that they can pan out and handle success and praise in the NBA. He seems like somebody who's coming right away and just ready to be himself, whatever the role is that he's given.

And I think for him, like he said he doesn't worry about going super high in the draft. It's about situation. Is there anything that makes most sense to you for him, given his game and his mindset? I mean, I could see him with the Pistons. I could also see him in Indiana. I think you want to be in a situation where you're not in the flashiest city. He would be most comfortable in just an environment where it's like, I'm just going to get in the gym every day and work.

And I think he would be really good for any of those teams. Honestly, like he could go anywhere high as three, you know. I mean, surely teams will try to move up. But I think that you haven't even seen the best version. of Keegan yet. And that's what's so exciting. He's going to get stronger physically. His body is not finished. There are things that he's going to be able to do with more strength. And I just think that he, his perfectionism, his attention to detail, the way that he listens, it's a real skill. And I think it's an underrated skill. And I think when you have prospects that are so meticulous like that

and they care so hard, you can teach them anything. You can really teach them anything. And I think he's hungry to learn. He very much wants mentorship. He likes being coached. And I think that that's what separates him because surely there are other talented prospects who are also versatile.

They can also play defense like he does. But I think his capacity to improve is just so high. It's interesting because I think like all of those, the teams in that range makes some sense to an extent. like Detroit, 100% true. They have the fifth pick. You know, pair him with Cade Cunningham, the guy who's primarily handling the ball.

That could work right there. The Pacers with the sixth pick, as you said, put him next to Miles Turner as a floor spacing big. Those guys on defense could be crazy together because of Murray's versatility, Turner's room protection. And then seventh with the Blazers, if they keep that pick,

if you're retaining Damien Lillard, you know, you have them with a guy who's going to handle that, you know, making responsibility or if Portland were to trade out and a team wants to trade in and get someone who can help right away. Like let's say, let's say the pistons flipped Jeremy Grant to Portland because they want to make a win now move. And then they would have draft Murray seventh instead of fifth. They could get two rookies instead or the Pelicans next to Zion and all those guys.

That's all smaller markets, you know, not the, you know, glips and glamour of a big market as he described. But they're all like really, really good basketball fits too. I think the way this board fell for Keegan Murray, like, I have a hard time looking for a spot where I'm like, eh, I don't love that for Murray. I think all of these could be great for him. But the truth is, as you said, he could go absolutely anywhere. I'm surprised we're not hearing more about him, to be honest with you. I know that like obviously to go from seven points freshman year to a lottery pick, potentially top five. That's enough talking about him in general. You know, I get that that's a huge leap and just the fact that he's even in the conversation is enough. But

I am very surprised that people don't mention Keegan at all. Like on national nationally, I think, again, I think he's a bit underrated. But there are some true Keegan fans out there. And just hearing some of the responses from the article, they're like, wait, I love this guy. Like, he could be so good for my team. And it's rare that you, you see that beyond like, yeah, he's amazing at basketball. I want him for a team. Like, I feel like people are really digging Keegan's personality. I think part of it is the age, right or wrong, that people say, oh, he's going to be 22 as a rookie. How much better can he really get? But I think considering the background that we're talking about with him, maybe that turns out to be true.

And he turns out to be a good but not great or amazing player because of the age. But I think the fact he didn't grow into his body until he was an upperclassman in high school until he didn't really develop his skills until he was in his early 20s. He is one of those guys who followed a different path. Development is not always linear. And for him, I think in addition to the age aspect, you know, it's not like he's this super explosive athlete. As a shooter, only 73% in his career from the free throw line, shot below 30% from three as a freshman,

up to 38%, nearly 40% as a sophomore. I feel good about Murray as a shooter. As he said, he shot well at lower levels as well. Like every flaw with him is just a nitpick. It really is. Like it's not like some pressing, you know, red flags that, you know, you're extremely concerned about that could derail his career. At worst, he's going to be a role player.

At worst, there's a level of safety with him. There is. I mean, so many plays he made that first year when he really wasn't getting the ball that much offensively, we're just phenomenal. Like, offensive rebounds. Just doing the little things like get the ball out as fast as you can, outlet it to this person. Like, he's very, he's very, what's the word?

He's almost like happy to do anything you tell him to. Like he was not upset that year. He was like excited. He was like, we're winning. He was like, I love this. So I just think that even if you had him in that limited role of just defense and boxing out, like he will make a difference. Like he's single-handedly won games for them that freshman year by doing the little things right. You know, and I think when you learn how to get your shot without having to have the ball in your hands 24-7. That is a real skill,

and a lot of guys have to learn that the hard way. He learned that first. So I think that'll serve him well. And one more thing about Keegan, Murray, Maren. Within your story, there's a paragraph in there that really stuck out to me. I'm just going to read the section. Most don't know that Keegan is actually left-handed

despite shooting with his right. He writes and does everything else with his left. His father, Kenyon, who also played for Iowa from 93 to 96, with a lefty in disguise as well, passing down the family trade. He thought his boys could benefit from fooling opponents and forcing them to use their dominant hands. Chris Buck tradition opting to shoot left-handed.

Chris Lefty, Kagan Murray, actually a lefty, but shoots well with his right hand. Mirren, you know who this from my head. reminds me of Ben Simmons who shoots with the wrong hand. So I'm a little biased here. This being one of my favorite sections from your article. This is the real reason I brought you on. I mean, of course. No, I was so surprised because when I was at the gym, I was like, oh, Chris is a lefty. I didn't know that. And they were like, oh, Kagan's a lefty. And I was like, no, he's not. Like, I've been watching him for like 10 minutes. He's not a lefty. And they're like, no,

he's a legit lefty. He's just, he decided to, you know, shoot righty. So basically, Kenyon used to shoot the dad used to shoot two-handed. And then his coach just made him switch to the right without knowing that he was a natural lefty. And so Kenyon realized that this could be an advantage because if they force him left, that's actually his

dominant hand. So although forced to make a decision, he always held that advantage over his opponents. So he wanted his sons to be the same way, but Chris actually took to shooting the lefty and Kagan copied his dad. So, yeah,

Yeah, everything he does outside of that is with the left. It's fascinating. I didn't know that. I always like, you want to find, basically like with draft prospects, you're trying to find nuggets of gold that you know about this person that people don't know, right? Like, this is the hard part about doing profiles on somebody. And so when I found out that he was like actually a lefty in disguise, I was just like, what? But I think it's such an inherent advantage.

It's like so genius on the part of their dad. especially when both hands work. Exactly. And works so well. And like you see the way he moves up and down the floor like the ball handling like now we know why, you know. Isn't it funny? Because with Ben Simmons, it was the same thing. He told the New York Post in 2016 that his dad made him shoot, you know, with his left instead of his right for the same exact reason to confuse opponents.

It was not the right call for shooting purposes. He still made the NBA and has had a highly successful career. But for Kagan Murray, he seems much more adept using either hand, whether it's finishing around the rim, scoring in the paint, hook shots. He can use either hand. He probably would be just as great having shot lefty rather than righty. Look, I hold out the hope that one day if a cosmic miracle happens, I can profile Ben Simmons, so I'm going to not comment on that.

But that would be a dream. I mean, I think I blew my chances. I think my chances of ever profiling Ben Simmons are done. If I ever do a hand in this profile, it's going to be talking to other people who have switched their hands and not had success doing it. Right. It's hard to do. Other than that, I think Higgan has, it's little things like that that make him so unique.

You know, it's, like I said, there's so much potential with this guy. And like, you watch him dribble. You watch him, you know, glide up and down the court. Like, he just, he moves so well. You wrote a story earlier in the year about Jabari Smith Jr., who is a top. three pick could potentially even go number one to the Orlando Magic. Jibari, I mean, Kegan Murray is sort of in a way the consolation prize for the teams that don't get Jibari Smith Jr. because of that length, you know, shooting ability, versatility, mindset, because your story about Jabari Smith

early in the year, again, the headline is the drive behind Jabari Smith Jr. It's an excellent article be published in February about him and his mindset and how he came to be in the place that he is now with Jabari Smith Jr. Like similar, you know, type of upbringing in the sense that like his parents were very much an influence on his mindset and approach to following his passion. And that's basketball. Of course, his dad was a former NBA player, Jabari Smith Sr. You know, bounced around a bunch of different teams.

What did you learn about Jabari Smith Jr. in your reporting for that story? I learned that it's fascinating that he got to see how. you could make the NBA, but still be disappointed in your career. And, you know, when people mentioned, oh, his dad played in the NBA, it was always this, like, positive thing, which it is. Of course it is. But what he actually witnessed was his dad feeling regretful or, you know, upset that his career did not pan out the way he wanted to. And I think when you learn from negative experiences from your parent or pitfalls or these things, you know, that really shapes you. And I think Jabari got a firsthand seat on like, hey, you could easily not make it or like,

you could make it, but you could not be happy. Like I think for him, it wasn't like, oh, I make the NBA and it's all good. And I think that perspective is so valuable. And he also watched his brother's struggle to make it to the next level. So he almost, I don't want to say a pressure, but he felt, you know, this drive to make it farther than them or to, you know, make it in a way where he celebrated, unlike his dad, you know? And I think I just learned that Jabari's also super thoughtful. He really aches to be great. And again, because he's the more shy, quiet kid, they think he doesn't have that.

But like Kagan, he has that killer in him. I mean, he really, really cares about the game of basketball. And I think people think, oh, his dad did everything for him because he was in the NBA. But it was Jabari leading the workout saying, I want to get better at this. I want to get better at that. He would go out jump roping early in the morning at like 5 a.m. And pitch black. You just can't teach work ethic.

You really can't. There's a quote from his dad in that story. You're replaceable. And, you know, that stood out to me because my whole life, I remember my mom told me when I was young, when she got her first job working at a local grocery store that her uncle was a manager at. He said, you know, just know, you're replaceable. You know, you might be family, but you have. have to do a good job or somebody else is going to take your job. And that's true, no matter

what you're going to do in life. And she told me that when I was young to try to instill that work ethic and never develop a sense of complacency and always strive to get better. And I think, you know, the follow-up quote in that from Smith Sr. was that, like, he was, you know, angry, like at the NBA, the business side. In a way, it was not controlling what you can control. It was, you know, pointing fingers looking externally rather than like, well, actually, here's what I could have done better. And it seems like Jabari Smith Jr. Has that pure love and passion for the game.

And past lessons from his father have helped develop his mindset to put him in this position where now he could be the number one pick in the draft as this sweet shooting, versatile defender with the right mindset. Because like with Keegan Murray we're talking about, everything I hear about Jabari Smith Jr. is this dude is always. in the gym. Bruce Pearl loves him. Didn't he call him the most talented player he's ever coached during the season, right? Yep. Yep. I mean, he checks all these intangible boxes on top of the skills.

I don't know. It's fascinating just to learn about who these players are as people, like with Jabari Smith Jr. running hills at five years old. I didn't do that. I was going to say, like, it's really, people do not understand how hard these guys work. What it takes to be great, to be truly great, to be one of the best. Yes, and also that greatness can be really ugly up close.

That's something I've learned with all my profiles, and I think that Jabari Smith, Sr., witnessed that up close, and all the things that Jabari Jr. is being praised for, like versatility, being able to shoot and step back, his dad was condemned for. So I just think that Jabari's seeing how hard, greatness is to achieve, how hard it is to sustain a career, how unhappy one can be, what a business it is, how cruel this game can be. His dad has experiences of like being in the locker room and then the guy next to him is gone the next day. Like as a kid when you grow up hearing those stories, you don't have entitlement. So I just love the fact that we have a potential number one pick who

believes genuinely that he's replaceable. Can you believe like that like when people tell me like oh, like, how are these guys when you talk to them? Like, are they so arrogant? They seem so arrogant. The truth is a lot of them are very, very, very humble. Yes, there is a high degree of confidence that they need to have in their core to perform. But what the best share is this idea that nothing will be given to them. They are not the greatest that ever live.

They're going to play like they're the greatest on the court. But deep down, there is this insecurity and need to keep proving. and proving, improving, and proving, and proving. And I don't know if that ever stops. And for Javari Smith, the quote in the story, another one that stood out to me, he said, I just want to be the best. I don't want to be better necessarily than anybody or nothing like that, because I don't know if that's what God has planned for me, but I just want to maximize me. He's talking about fulfilling the best version of himself, not looking to be better than anybody else. What can I do to be better than I was yesterday? What can I do to be the best version of myself five years from now?

I don't know. That really was impressive to me to hear a 19-year-old kid share something like that. It's not something you hear very often. He's so mature. And when he says that, he really means it, you know? Like, he just downplayed any success. You know, he was like, oh, I just want to win games. You know, like, it's very genuine.

I will say that for readers and listeners. It's not fake. I think sometimes when people see prospects are humble, they really think it's like BS. It's really not. It's the most authentic. And I think in draft classes, we're used to making comparisons. So they're used to people saying, who do you want to be like? That's the number one question.

Who do you want to emulate? What I love is that they don't say this person. They say, I want to be the best I can be. And that to me is really, really cool. I will say, I know we're talking about Jabari, but when I asked that question to Kagan, he said, who do you want to emulate? And he said, LeBron James, but because of his I promise school. So I think it was another, and that didn't make the story, but he loves what LeBron is doing off the court and his demeanor and how he carries himself.

So I think it's really interesting to me that these guys are not just thinking about how they want to be on the floor as NBA players, but like how they want to literally present themselves, you know, as people. And I wish that was talked about more because it's definitely on their minds. For sure, no doubt about it. And I mean, I think for any of these young guys, that's, that's kind of the, there's pros and cons to social media. It's one of the pros is to see who players are as human beings. And the access to information, like you can just scroll down on TikTok and see like a 30 minute clip of LeBron opening a school. You don't need to turn on your TV at the right moment to learn about it. It's the access to information is unreal nowadays.

So I think a lot of young players come in nowadays, growing up, idolizing great athletes, learning about who they are as people and how that connects to who they are in the court. It's not hard to find great role models in this century, really, but especially the last 10 years or so with social media rising. It's not difficult. It's really not. I think that's why so many kids are coming in so mature. I mean, his own brother said he's a young boy, but he's really a vet. It's the truth. It's the truth because he's had great influences in his personal life, but also great athletes to look at. by the young players we have, like, just in this draft and also just in general in the league.

Like, I feel amazing about the next generation. I feel, I've, you know, watching the playoffs, I'm like, wow, we are so lucky to be witnessing this crop. And I don't know, the guys I profile, the guys I interview, like, I'm just very impressed by their demeanor. Not because I expected it to be negative, but I'm just, I'm taken by their grace because I think if that much pressure was on me, I would totally fumble. I don't know how they deal with it.

It's amazing. They all block it out. And to be honest, none of them really like social media. And they try to stay off of it. They don't search their names. It's really not what people think. Didn't? Wasn't there something in the story about what happened when he was named an all-American?

Oh, yeah. He got verified on Instagram. His sister, he didn't even know. His sister had to tell him. And then he was like, oh, okay. You know, and it was just. They just didn't care. He doesn't care.

I think a lot of people think that guys search their names. And some guys do. But a lot of them really don't log on. A lot of them are not even in charge of their social media. They have people to post for them, like some of the biggest people you would think. And I don't know. I love that they grew up on the internet. They became popularized by the internet, right?

This is the internet generation. And they're over it. His high school coach, Jemari Smith's high school, coach said he reminds me a lot of KG, Chris Bosch, Little A.D. You mentioned some Auburn assistant coaches like to think of him as Chris Middleton. His dad mentioned Janus because of the defensive potential with the length, the versatility, the mindset. How do you see Jabari Smith's career developing from where we see him today to where he could be, you know, eight, nine years from now towards the prime of his career? Well, I think certainly his body.

he's going to change like we talked about with Kagan. So I think getting stronger will only add to the versatility. I just think he's going to be somebody you can rely on. Like I really do think he's going to be a go-to type of score. I don't know if it's going to happen right away. But he's, what he is is reliable. And I think you're going to be able to rely on him for big time buckets. And, you know, if you take away long distance, like he's very skilled at, you know, getting to his spots and that elbow and the fade away. And he's just got so many. moves. I see him adding to that arsenal offensively and the passion he brings to defense. I think he is great, great length. And he likes defense. Like he really does. He takes pride in it. So I see

that Yonis comparison. I just think he's going to be a great player. And I think he's going to be somebody that people want to be around. Like people like playing with him. He plays so hard. He just goes about his work. I think he's going to be a very well-liked teammate. Yeah. And also for like the top three teams, I can't foresee him falling out of the top three. I think three is probably his bottom of the floor for him. Orlando won all the length and versatility they have. They like Jabari Smith, you know, pair him with Franz Wagner and, you know, if Jonathan Isaac is able to come back, I mean, all the length and versatility that they could have, OKC. I mean, the thing with Jabari Smith, like the one knock teams do have on him that I think is fair is the shot creation because

he has a jumper. He can, you know, come off of movement. actions, screens, and handoffs, he can, you know, attack a closeout in a straight line. But like self-creation, he doesn't have that quite as much now. And, you know, for OKC, that matters a little bit less. You know, I talked about this with Verno when you're talking, when you pair him with Shigginless Alexander and Trey Mann and Josh Giddy and all these other playmakers, it kind of would alleviate some of the pressure on him to do that early in his career. Is there a team, like, of those three, Houston, OKC, Orlando, if you could plug Jabari-Smith

into one of those teams, which one would you choose for them? I mean, I like Houston. They could... With Jalen Green. Yeah, I think that could work. I mean, also we have to keep in mind that the pro game is different.

It's quicker. It's faster. Obviously, like, the shot selection, all of those things, you know, it can change. Like, I do think if he adapts to the speed and all of those things, he can absolutely get going. I don't know.

I just think that would be a really interesting fit for him. it'll be interesting to see if he even makes it to three. Yeah, I don't even, exactly. I mean, it could, this is the weirdest draft. Like, every time I think about it, I'm like, well, this guy could go first. No, this guy could go first. No, maybe he'll go to three. Maybe they'll move up.

Like, I just, there's so many talented guys that could fit in different places. Here's what I think's going to happen with this year's drafts. As the next month, you know, passes by, you're going to hear increased amount of reports about potential for movement. I think you're going to hear about, let's say, for example, example, that there's rumblings OKC could trade out of two. Let's say Detroit might be trying to trade up the five, and maybe they want Jabari Smith. Well, maybe Houston also watched Jabari Smith. Could they try to flip three to get to one with Orlando? I really think it could

be that type of year. Because as you said, it's a strange draft. These guys have so much in terms of, you know, fit, like what your team philosophy is, the direction of how you want to build this out. Like that, that makes it, you know, really exciting. I'm personally as a fan stoked about the possibilities, but I would predict that it's going to be that type of, you know, pre-draft process where even though we have the draft order right now, these teams could swap places entirely unless they all fall in love. I mean, maybe one of them falls in love with Holmgren. One of them falls in love with Smith. One of them falls in love with Bencaro. And it's all locked in. That could happen too. That's the other side of it. But I'm predicting a lot of rumblings about movement.

That'll be a good time. I mean, look, I have no idea what the hell is going to happen, but I know that nobody will lose out. Like, I just feel like they're all so talented and so moldable and just such a high character class that I just think there's so many good options. Absolutely. And just one last thing from the article that I thought was beautifully written. You wrote, Smith Sr. knows the inevitable is happening. His son is becoming a man. His son might not need him the way he used to. His son is finding his own voice, but his son is still his son, and he is still his father, his protector, and that bond will always define space, time.

So he gently reminds his son that he's still there. He's always going to be there. I just thought that was beautifully written, Maren, and it kind of summed up the story nicely. Both of these guys, really, with Murray and Smith. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. You know I'm a word nerd. You are a word nerd.

You're pacing. Your feel for the game. the pace with which you play with changing speeds using hesitation dribbles. I mean, I don't know how you do it as a writer. I wish I could install that into my game. But I'm just trying to become the best version of myself. There you go.

There you go. I can't write like that. I don't even know how to read it out loud like that. I should have asked you to do it. Reading me like a storybook. Look, I can't predict anything, but I just try to listen and understand who these people are. Marin, you crush it.

Thank you for coming on to help everybody understand Kegan Murray. Sorry, Slet Jr. Thank you so much for listening to The Void and a big thank you to Jesse Lopez for producing this weekend. Also, thanks again to our guest, Kirk, Sam, and Maren. Really enjoyed our conversations with them. I'll be back on Tuesday with Chris Vernon with another episode of The Mismatch. We'll be talking about everything in the NBA playoffs. And I'm sure we'll be talking some NBA draft too.

I hope you have a good rest of your weekend.