The Mismatch - NBA Draft Reactions: Big Surprises, Risers and Fallers, and Contenders Reloading. Plus, the Marcus Smart Trade

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

Verno and KOC react to last night’s NBA draft, starting with their thoughts on the Hornets taking Brandon Miller at no. 2. Then, they move onto the weird picks made by the Magic and debate if Bilal Coulibaly could have a Giannis-like growth spurt after being selected in the top 10 (01:14). The guys discuss the lack of movement at the top of the draft as well as the shock of Cam Whitmore's fall to the bottom half of the first round (15:16). Also, KOC shares why he loved the players the Warriors, Nuggets, and Jazz drafted (24:45). The guys discuss how once-touted high school prospects G.G. Jackson and Emoni Bates, who both fell deep into the second round, can succeed as NBA professionals (45:56). Finally, we get to hear Verno’s excitement for Marcus Smart to officially become a part of the Memphis Grizzlies (51:01). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons from The Ringer, and this is a podcast called The Rewatchables. We have been doing it. Really since 2017, it started with how much we love the movie Heat. We decided to structure a whole podcast with categories, most rewatchable scene, who won the movie, Apex Mountain, what age the best. But here's the thing. If you want the full archive, you can hear them only on Spotify for free, by the way. So make sure to follow the rewatchables on Spotify. Welcome to The Mismatchable.

I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.K. Kevin O. Palmer, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin. Oh, no! Pass the draft, baby. Free agency around the corner. How are you? We made it past the draft. Last night you did a lot of pods with Bill Simmons and Tate Fraser as you are watching the draft. I must ask you first. which pick elicited the first huge reaction from you guys?

I mean, it was number two, the fact that it was officially Brandon Miller. And it was partially the biggest reaction because Tate Fraser just went cold and silent. He wasn't sure how to feel if he was feeling anything at all because he wanted Scoot Henderson so badly. And so I think for us, you know, we had our own reaction. There's the video of, you know, all the Hornets fans in the crowd. their mascot reacting negatively to the Brennan Miller pick. And I reacted. I was like, wow, I'm happy.

That's great. It's the correct decision. Yeah. But, yeah, I think when that became official, that was our first, you know, big initial reaction. Was that yours as well, Chris? Because you were a scoot guy. The first time. No, just because it kind of, you know, everybody keeps up with those odds.

And the odds earlier in the day had flipped to scoot pretty heavily. And then about an hour. Yeah, about an hour. hour before the draft. I mean, those guys know. They know what the big's going to be. They're not trying to lose money by putting numbers up. And so once it flipped back to Brandon Miller, that was my expectation that that's the name that Adam Silver was going to call. I got to be honest, the first time, I felt good about, we knew the top three in some order, for sure. And then at that point, we figured the Thompson twins were going to be two of the next, what, four or five

off the board. I love the fact that they went back to back. And the reason I love... Yeah, because I know that as close as they have been for their entire lives, if you're Ahmed Thompson, you cannot fully enjoy your moment until your brother gets drafted. And the fact that he did not have to wait at all for them to both enjoy their moments, right?

because it's like, you know, there's still your brother sitting next to you and your parents are there and everything. And it's like, geez, I'm super excited. I'm super thrilled about what's happening for me. But here's this other person in my life that I care so deeply about. And they're still stressed out about what's going on. And so I did like that they went back to back. The other thing was that got us through five. six is the first time where I was like, oh, wow, because of course I started getting a bunch of texts and tweets because I've been on the Anthony Black train and I said that feels like a Westbrookian like leap in a draft where we didn't really necessarily see it coming.

Maybe even Giddy would apply to that more recently. But the year of Westbrook, it was like everybody had Kevin Love up there. And then when Westbrook went for, everybody was like, wait, what? He kind of felt like he was a little bit lower. Pretty much everybody had him slotted at eight to Washington. And the other thing is, not only... A lot of people had him at six to Orlando, you know, in drafting at least.

I just don't understand. You know, we talked about how opportunity to fit. Like, are they just done with Suggs? Are they out on him? I don't think that's necessary. I don't think drafting black necessarily. means that you're out on Suggs. It complicates things for sure. I mean, you know, Bill Simmons and I, after we recorded the pod last night, we did like a little video that Jomey from the Ringer

Social Team recorded in, and like we gave our winners and a loser. And I don't necessarily think the magic are full losers, but I think there's risks in drafting Anthony Black and Jet Howard at 6 and 11. With Anthony Black, he needs to improve his shot, but he can play with other guys. So he can play with Suggs. He can play with Fultz. We just saw him. Fultz, you know, being a mid-range heavy guy who doesn't have a consistent higher volume three-point shot yet. And it worked, you know, to an extent with Orlando. But the magic do have a lot of, you know, average or below-average shooters, Paulo Bancaro, Franz Wagner, Wendell Carter, Markell Fultz, Anthony Black. So that's a long list of your key core guys who aren't great

shooters. And that's why they drafted Jed Howard. But Jed Howard's the opposite. He doesn't, he hasn't shown that he can be a playmaker or defender yet. And he's a lot. He's very inconsistent last season at Michigan. So I think those pigs bring risk, but Anthony Black, in theory, can play with other guards because of he's like, he, he makes instant decisions with the ball in his hands. He doesn't need to dominate the ball. Yeah, I mean, I like, we've talked so many times about, hey, you've got to give these guys time. And I understand if you've got a high draft pick, you want to just take the best player available. I just, I think Anthony Black needs the ball in his hands.

I think Jaylen Sucks needs the ball as his hands. in order to maximize what you have in those players. I don't think either of them are best suited to be off the ball guys. And so I would imagine with the guys that they took and the fact that they took guys six and 11 and added that they're going to clean up some of that. They'll move off some of the youth and try to get some other guys in there, you know, some more veteran help. Just show the ropes to Paulo Bancaro to show the ropes to Anthony Blas. Like they would be well served to attempt to do that. And I think that I'm torn because I don't, I don't necessarily understand the fits in where they went.

But I can't deny, we literally did a show earlier this week. And two of my guys that I said I'd bet on that I did not think would fail in the NBA were Anthony Black and Jet Howard. Just odd fits. You know what I mean? Jet's easier. That's an easier fit for sure. sure than the Anthony Black thing. But on a team that has Sugs, on a team that has Jayland,

on a team that has Sugs, on a team that has Markell Fultz, on a team that has Cole Anthony who plays, right? Like, that's all got to get cleaned up now. It's got to get cleaned up. They're not all going to be there for sure coming up next season. So that was the one I was first surprised, but it was mildly surprising.

Seven floor to me. Yeah, seven and eight. The win by I'm a teammate. Yeah. Bilal Kula Bali, you know, getting, so he was drafted by Indiana at seven. They moved down to eight with the wizards. So the wizards end up with Kula Bali. And then the Pacers get Jarris Walker at eight.

Okay. The highlight they showed of the putback Tomahawk, I was like, what the hell? Like, that's one that I had not seen. And of course, they're, you know, they're promoting the whole, he was five. 11 and now he's 6 to 8 and I said this feels so much like possible Janus impact where it's like this raw guy who was even 6 to 8 possibly when he comes into the draft. Janus was more towards 6.9. You know, I've got that poster where it says like, you know, Greek and still growing or whatever that they had on draft night or his rookie year. and it was like at the draft in June, he was like 6, 8 and a half or something.

And then by the time he played for Milwaukee, he was like 6.10 and a half or something. It's like, okay, if Janus was 6.8, radically different player. And so as soon as I saw that this kid was listed at like 6.8, I was like, and, you know, they show the clips. I'm like, I bet this is a bet that he's still growing because he's obviously grown so much.

recently and he's still so young that it's like, this guy could turn out to be 610. This guy can turn out to be seven foot tall. Now, maybe he is done now. You never know, Chris. I mean, he was, just to give that context, he was 5'6 at 15 years old, and then he grew

to 6 foot 3 at 17. Right. I believe that's the age. I might have those ages mixed up, but now he's 6, 6, 6, 6.7. So for a pool of Bali, he's 6.7 at this point, at almost 19. years old with a 7-2 wingspan. So even if he stays where he is now.

He's got to grow into his arms. Yeah, right. But even if he doesn't grow anymore, he's still got a pro frame, incredible length, and he has the high floors offensive player and a good decision-maker with feel on offense and a solid

catching chute guy. He's going to have a good career. But if he gets any taller, never mind skill development, that's why a lot, like Victor Wenban, Yama, his own teammate, was, I mean, I guess you could say, oh, he's biased, he's a teammate, but Wemby sees him more than anybody.

He saw him dominating at the lower level when he had on-ball opportunities. That's why Wembe says, oh, he's not just top 10, he's top five. And NBA teams very clearly felt the same way as Wembe did, the fact that the Wizards moved up to seven to get him, giving up extra draft capital, and showed how badly that they wanted him. And that Wizards front office, I feel like they've done a good job. We saw all the details of the Bradley Beal deal with all the swaps they got, all the second round picks. Their front office has done a nice job. And that's cool, a Bali pick.

This is a home run swing on a guy who can still be a single because of his high floor. So when I saw the highlight, I immediately turned to my buddy. And I'm like, what the hell? Like, the guy just tomahawked the thing off a rebound. Like, in one motion, I was like, that is not common. and of course I'm you know they're showing highlights that's what they show when you get to this but Kevin and I know you can make every anybody can make every excuse in the world he's age you know you don't

understand it's European basketball you know they don't play as many minutes whatever when they posted his stats and it said five points a game I was like what the hell like five five points a game it is I can't imagine anyone has ever been drafted that average five points a game in anything ever, any level, any team ever. There's no way. I refuse to believe it. I mean, I think, I mean, those stats are a little misleading because they are.

Because for the lower level team for the Mets 92, he averaged 22 points per game. Right. So, so like he played like 15, 20 games where he was getting on ball reps, ISOs. He had 30 plus point games. You know, he was doing a lot off the dribble. And then for the Mets 92, he played a lesser role because he's only 18 years old. He wasn't supposed to play. Injuries opened up opportunities for him.

His own production at the lower level, you know, forced opportunities. And then he became more of like on ball, defense, a stop or 3-and-D guy, where he wasn't getting a ton of touches. There are so many other guys in that team above him in the totem pole. So he averaged five, six points for the Mets 92, but for their B squad, he was at over 20 points per game. So I think that's worth giving a context. This is a French guy that you were not totally in love with, though.

I loved them. I had a 10 on my board. 10? I mean, come on. I love Kula Bali. This is not Killi. No, what's wrong with? Nilakina love.

But I mean, this isn't the type of love that you showed his brethren once upon a time. Maybe I'm a softer on this guy and this guy might be the one. Maybe I'm over correcting a little bit, Chris. You said, I'm so tired of these French guys. Every time. I get burned every time. And this guy averages five points a game. You can make every excuse of the world.

Five points a game. is what it is. I'm not telling you he's not going to be good. I'm saying I can't remember. And I'm sure our mismatch listeners can fill me yet. I can't remember someone on any level. No matter the reasoning, I can't imagine that someone had that low of production on the high level that they were playing.

He averaged 20 plus. No, that's on that. Come on. That's playing against you. Stop. Yeah. Sure. But I don't think that's fair because I don't think it's fair to even give a shit about the stat

because it's not about that. Because of his role, because it's about the production and how he developed and how rapidly he's improved. It's almost the numbers are basically irrelevant with him. Look, I saw the highlights. Maybe the guy keeps growing and he ends up being the honest. I'm saying it's totally possible. Totally possible.

I'm not telling you, the guy's not going. going to be good. Yeah. I'm saying that when we, he is the direct opposite of the guys that we always talk about like, yeah, of course he's good. You see how productive the guy was?

I mean, you should be using the ringer draft guide numbers. That's what we have in there where we combine his entire season as a whole, 10.9 points per game. Like, I think that's a fairer representation of the year he had. Five doesn't, you know,

tell the story. All right. Neither does 11 for that matter. I was shocked. I was shocked. with that pick just because most people did not have him there in their mock drafts and that felt a little like the giddy thing honestly and guess what giddy's turned out to be unbelievable so i'm not telling you it's not going to be a good pick i'm just saying i was surprised by it and then

certainly uh surprised about what they said and then i wondered as this thing is playing out and there's not picks moving. I want to get your opinion on this. As this is playing out, one of the things that I thought was, is it possible? Because I thought a lot of those teams at the top that they were best served, given their roster situations, to use their pick as the asset. This is a trade asset, and I have this incredible asset. I don't have that many assets because my team stinks.

So I have this incredible asset and I'm already young in most cases. Here's the opportunity for me to improve my team a great deal by using this pick to do it. And then you saw most of those teams, everybody, basically, until we got a little bit lower and some minor flips here and there use their picks. And I wondered if, tell me your opinion. is it because the people did not value those picks and that asset, whatever asset could be attained from those picks, like we have in other years, that once you got past three, which everybody agreed on, everybody. Everybody's board was the same through three. That once you got past that, that I'm overrating. what that asset was and what you could get for that asset because this draft just was not looked at as having the amount of players that could have the big impact as other drafts that we've had before.

You buy that? That's not true, first of all. Not everybody at Scoot Henderson and Brandon Miller two and three. There are people I've talked to around the league that had one of or both of the Thompson twins ahead of them. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, I mean, like, they're, like, it wasn't a. full-on consensus

top three, like any year. I mean, there was amongst every monk, whether that was true of the front office or not. Yeah, mock, yes.

Mocks, yes. It was, you know, consens consensus one, two, three, but definitely individuals on teams. There are people who prefer the Thompson twins. And I'm sure if you really dug deep,

you probably could have some people that had Anthony Black. Like, there are a lot of Anthony Black supporters. As for your question, you're saying, like,

with the fourth and the fifth pick, Are you talking like in the middle of the draft? I'm not sure what you're saying. I mean even possibly with two and three. Once you got past Wemby, we talked about Charlotte moving that pit. I mean, we talked about Portland moving that pit. Yeah, but the more we've learned in recent days, like Wote said this morning on Friday morning how, you know, there's no magic trade out there for the Blazers. You know, earlier in this week, you know, there's been stuff about, well, actually, the Pelicans never offered Zion Williams.

in an actual deal. So if that's to be believed, I think the fact that nothing did happen does show that nothing serious was offered to that extent. I know Mark Stein had the report about how the Clippers and the Blazers had some, you know, very brief brief talks, or there was at least a understanding, I believe, is the way he phrased it. There's an understanding that Paul George may be available. and nothing happened. Well, that's because Paul George is super injury prone

and he's older. Why would the Blazers trade the number three pick in the draft for Paul George? Maybe the Clippers make that call. You had Mitch Cupcheck earlier in the week who said at a press conference, you'd be surprised the names that are available for the number two pick.

But why exactly would you move the number two pick when you're the Charlotte Hornets right now and you're not going to make one deal and then suddenly be in championship contention? I just don't think there was a deal that made sense for Portland or for Charlotte, and never mind for Houston, especially since it seems like there was, with them all year long, we talked about this back in December, Christmas, when Woj reported the Hardin thing. I said to you at that point that Hardin could be a target for Houston if and only if that they're

going to get another superstar trade and make other big moves. And maybe there is something coming in free agency for him that we don't know about yet. But I think for Houston on draft night, they took Allen Thompson because there was no deal that made sense to do. So I think that's the place we're at right now with the superstar trades. And it's not going to happen until July 9th with Damian Millard until he makes his decision and the Blazers make their decision when he's eligible to be traded. Yeah, the other thing I thought about was it's totally possible that these teams value these picks much more than they have in the past, especially given the current financial climate of the NBA. When you've got so many teams that are near or close to the luxury tax,

they fear this second apron, players that are the best players, and even when you're talking about paying the Jalen Browns of the world over $200 million. Does that apply to these teams, though, Chris? I don't think that's relevant to Charlotte, Portland, Houston, or Detroit. I'm talking about lack of movement throughout this draft as, a whole, not necessarily just the very top. Yeah. I mean, I guess.

You just don't have any other means to get good players that can play for you for $1 or $2 million. I mean, I don't know. I mean, we saw some moves. We saw 10 to 12. We saw Dallas dump Bertons. We saw Boston trade down four times with Brad Stevens. You know, he's picking up second round picks to trade down.

I don't know. I mean, John, like if you wanted to see a John. Collins trade from Atlanta. We haven't seen a John Collins trade for four years when it's been hyped up. I just don't think the climate was there for those types of trades right now. And yes, to your point, yes, some of these first round draft picks, they do have increased value because of the fact that you have a guy on a rookie contract and you hope you can be an early contributor for you. And this draft class just so happens to have a lot of guys that could be just that. You know, Dallas trading into 24. You know, they used their traded player exception to take on Rishon Holmes from the Kings.

They draft OMAX prosper right ahead of Boston at 25, a team that did like him. So, I mean, they took on money in some way, moved money in another way. But I think, you know, I think you're right, though, the first round picks have value. I just don't think it's, you know, there's opportunities for that tonight. I also think that people didn't love this draft as much, honestly. Like, there wasn't guys to go get that people. were in love with in the same way. That's how you usually get a lot of action.

When the draft is strong and people feel like I could get up to that spot and get that guy. Nobody with Camp Whitmore was trying to do that, huh? Falls down to 20 because bad medical, bad season, no support from his head coach. Very shocking. Very shocking. It was shocking he fell all the way to 20. I thought that was a chance.

Based off recent days, you know, on Monday. Tuesday, whatever it was, that stuff started trickling out that he was going to slip because of bad medical and bad interviews. I put him at,

think, eight or nine in my mock and that's where he kind of stayed. I could have anticipated, oh, it'll fall to 13, 14, 15,

but 20? 20? That, I mean, especially going by, it says a lot to me that he slipped by Utah, a very good drafting

organization, Lakers, one of the best at drafting, The Heat, one of the best. The Warriors, their culture with what they have there, some really good organizations passed him by for him to fall to Houston at 20, a team that's like an effort mode.

Let's just go with a guy who has top 10 talent and see how it goes. It's kind of crazy because I don't know if you saw the, did you see the Dunleavy press conference? He was asked pointedly about Cam Whitwell. He said, you know, because it was the pick before them. they said basically why did you not draft cam whitmore or where was can because he was talking about their board or whatever and he said we went with the highest player on our board yeah and so you know golden state's board had the kid they took higher than cam whitmore that should tell you something now one of the dings on whitmore was that he's not particularly high IQ player and that would make that is a type of player that you have to be to have any success in Golden State. He would have to-

He would have to- He would have to- Yeah, it's just so much more. It's so much more at Golden State. And some players, I don't even blame them for not being able to fit. I mean, like, it's, it's very refined, you know, it's constant movement. It's a different, it's more intricate, and you're playing with a bunch of veterans. And so you can't, your mistakes are going to stand out like sore thumbs.

It's not the easiest place. And you better be a very high IQ basketball player to pull that off. I love what the Warriors did last night, man. They get Brandon Pajimsky at the 19th pick, and then they trade in to get 57 and get Trace Jackson Davis, one of the best players in college basketball in the last two years. And Trace Jackson Davis is somebody that I had ranked as a first rounder on my board. A lot of draft analysts had him as a late first, early second round draft pick,

and yet he falls to 57. You know, he's tweeting saying, you know, the NBA teams, they will learn to regret this last night. And I think they will too, because Trace Jackson Davis, he has fallen into an absolutely perfect situation with the Warriors with his style of play. They're going to plug him into kind of that Kevin Looney role where he's, you know, in DHOs, he can playmate,

he can roll hard to the basket, he's a lob threat, he's versatile on defense, he's smart, he rebounds. He has all these skills. He just so happens to be old. I mean, he's old. And NBA teams don't like old prospects. But with him, unless there's something medical that we don't know about exactly, I think for the Warriors, this is an absolute gift.

And teams will, as he said, will regret it. Before we get onto another team that you like, I do want to talk about this because you and I on our pod prior to the draft, I said, look, I talk about this every single year. We end up going back and looking at these drafts. And there are these guys that were highly successful in college, outstanding players, players of the year. And then we look and we go,

it's just because of their age that they ended up falling where they did in the draft. And that is Jay Crowder and that is Draymond Green and that is Jalen Brunson and that is Chandler Parsons, who was SEC player of the year, and Malcolm Brogden, who was ACC player of the year, on and on and on and on, right? And you can find these guys throughout the years.

And so you and I said, hey, maybe that guy is Jaime Hockes from UCLA. And he was a little lower in some of the mocks by, and you had updated yours, many people had updated theirs, looked like even before the draft, that there were some people that were really in love with him,

and he was not going to be that guy. He was going to go. So high. 18 to the heat. And that's indeed where he went. That's funny. Like with him, like when I started hearing about that,

I was like, wow, 18 feels kind of high. But then the more people you hear it from that they heat like him, that indeed turned out to be the truth. Okay. So I love your Trace Jackson one because that could, they could apply.

But as the draft is 22. So as the draft is playing out and I'm watching it, I had that moment. I don't know if it will be so. But I had that moment. where I was like, oh my God, and I didn't even mention him. And that's the guy. That's the one.

If it happens, I think there's a bet that that's the one. Hamay. No. Later. We talking first round still? No. Of the guys we talked about, those type of guys where it's like, oh, surprise, surprise. The guy's good in the NBA.

What did you need to see? First round, second round, it could be Colby Jones with the Kings, could be Andre Jackson with the Bucks, which is a weird fit, by the way. That's a strange fit. Think ages. The Celtics. Eight, no, ages. Oh, age age, okay.

I mean, Jordan Miller with the Clippers. No, you're missing him. It's Jalen Pickett. Oh, Jalen Pickett. Yeah, that's an awesome pick. I love that. It's Jaylin Pickett. My God.

It's the most obvious freaking thing ever. I know. Yeah. No one. He guy averaged 18.7 rebound, 7 assist. He's like literally the top of the top in all pick and roll stats. His percentages. His ISO.

He's kind of like this, you know, back down point guard. The guy played at Siena. And he's like mini Yokic. He had a game at Sienna where he had 46 and 13 in college. So he wins the MAAAC player of the year. He's already the best player in that conference, right? And then he goes to a higher level to Big Ten because he transfers to Penn State, right? again second team all-American first team all big 10 51% from the field 35% from three 18.7 rebounds seven

assists in the last 30 years there's only two guys that have ever done that 30 years penny hardaway is one of them and the other one Denzel valentine who I liked and obviously it did not work out for that's on Valentine. But the point is, it's like, oh my God, and I remember talking about him during the NCAA tournament and watching him because I can't remember who they beat in the first round. See, the first or second round this past year. And I'm talking, this guy, I've never seen someone just control the game. It was Texas A&M.

Just pulled it up. Texas A&M. Texas A&M. And he is just an awkward ass player. He's just awkward. 19 points, 8 assists, zero turnovers. And with him,

I mean, like in my draft guy. Like, he gets everybody up in the air. He's like something from the 80s. Like this crafty ass. I have a, I have a comp for Mark Jackson with him because of his kind of back down game.

Right. I mean, it's an 80s, 90s guy, whoever it is. So with him, like in my negatives for him in the, draft guide. It's what's his real potential as a shooter, right? Like kind of like 35% of threes,

73% of free throws his first four years of college until how great he shot the ball as a fifth year senior. And then the other one is it might be a challenge finding a fit for him in the NBA since he has such an odd style of play. Well, guess what? He went to the team where that's not an issue at all. I know, right? If I had him 60 on my big board, if you told me pre-draft, he would go to the nuggets. I'd have him in the 30s where he ended up going because this is such a dream fit for him. He's going to be a player. He's going to fit with Yokic. Everybody fits with Yokic.

But this guy especially, they're going to find a unique role for him. I can't wait to see the way Michael Malone uses him as in screening actions, using him at the dunker spot with inverted actions with him posting up inside against guards who aren't used to being in that area. It's going to be exciting. And then not to mention, they drafted two other guys who were. talented too. Julian Strother from Gonzaga, super talented perimeter shooter, clutch shot maker. He adds a lot to that team. I mean, I think he's going to be able to kind of play behind Michael

Porter Jr. develop behind him. And then Hunter Tyson, same thing. Like 6-8, big, long shooter, 40 plus percent from three this past season, versatile coming off screens, handoffs, all that motion type of shooting, and he rebounds. So I think for them that they, they, they drafted a guy who could kind of slide behind Bruce Brown or help fill in if Bruce Brown leaves, and they drafted two guys who can help fill in behind Michael Porter Jr., who, of course, is historically very injury prone. I thought that Nuggets are one of the big winners of the draft with what they did in the middle of it. Interestingly enough, with that Jaila Pickett guy. So I liked Texas A&M going into the tournament, so I was watching that game.

Buzz Williams team, they played very well towards the end of the season in the SEC. And it was like, oh, they're playing Penn State, whatever. I can tell you, this guy controls a game. Like, for people that have not seen him, in college, he would bring the ball across half court, like, in that game. And you just never see this. He's turning his back to the goal, like, already, like after he's just starting to get the offense going.

It's not like your typical, like, post up down low. He's even, like, basically posting up, and he's got the ball away from you. Nobody can ever steal it. If you bring a double team, he makes the right choice every time, and he does this thing where he turns, and then he pumps up,

everybody goes in the air, and he gets fouled. And it's like, it is the most frustrating player to watch a team play against. And he is so damn good. I walked out watching that game, and I was like,

holy hell, this guy. This guy, like, It's a little Andre Miller-esque. Yeah, that's a good comparison for him too. Yeah, for many years, Andre Miller was the guy that was the best player in the NBA that never made an All-Star team, right? He just has such an unusual rhythm to his game.

Like, even the way sometimes he'll drive into the lane and just off his wrong foot throw up this, you know, like left foot, left-hand floater, layup, runner. I mean, the balance passes that he throws, like, so smooth off the dribble to cutting teammates. It's the perfect situation for Jay and Pickett. And it's literally everything we talked about. Conference player of the year, amazing in the next level. He's like 23.

So, of course, it's like, I'd rather take the 19-year-old that in four years is going to be even better than he is right now. But the production is the production, bro. Like, it's freakish. you don't grab seven rebounds and get seven assists and 18 points a game playing in the big 10. Like, nobody does it. That's why it was historic. And, you know, the percentage numbers, everything, low turnovers. He's like top 10 in the NBA.

That coach is going to love them. It's perfect. Oh, my God. It really is. He's the one. I was like, we're going to look up and be like, how the hell did he not get drafted? And like I said, with the Strother Tyson side of their draft hall, considering how inflated their money is going to end up becoming, right?

The new CBA and all those challenges, it does make Michael Porter Jr. A bit more potentially tradable next summer or the summer following, if it comes to needing to break up the core, that if those guys Strother or Tyson, one of them hits or becomes at least good competent players on a rookie deal, it does give the Nuggets more flexibility moving forward. So that's just something for Denver fans to keep in mind

to what was I felt a pretty clear win tonight with them drafting three experienced NBA-ready players at 21 years old for Strother, 23 for Tyson, and almost 24 for Pickett. You mentioned Golden State earlier as a team that you really liked what they did on draft night. I know that you mentioned in that video that you did with Bill, as well as on the pod,

that you loved Utah's draft. So if you can't just expand on Utah's draft and why you think they were a big winner last night. So they had three first round draft picks. At number nine, they took Taylor Hendricks, who was the sixth-th-ranked guy on my board. Hendricks, we've talked about him on NBA draft show all year long, me and J. Kyle, man,

about how he has those types of qualities that playoff teams need. Versatile defense, scheme flexibility, off-ball help. You know, he can switch on the perimeter against smaller, quicker guys at 68 with the 7 foot one wingspan. And then on offense, he can just slide right in as a 40% three-point shooter. He in high school, he played center. He's a solid finisher around the basket, a vertical guy.

And then you pair him with Lowry Markinen and Walker Kessler on that front court. They have size, versatility. They're going to be massive missing a playmaker. Well, then guess what? They draft Keonti George with the 16th pick, a guy that. that I had is a lotto guy. He slips out of the lottery. He's one of my can't miss is, right?

One of your can't miss guys that Keonté George is just a bucket getter, but because of how fluid he is off the dribble, but he's more than that. He can pass. He's very good in pick and roll with really solid feel. He's with his real tough, strong frame. Like, you know, Scoot Henderson, people are so impressed by how, you know, muscular and wide he is. Keonti George's similar.

He's not as, you know, muscular, veiny muscular like Scoot Henderson, but he's got a lot of long, you know, wide football player type of body. So he's strong on defense. He competes. I think he can energize that team. And then they get Bryce Sintabaw late in the first round, who is, you know, the purest shooter in the draft. He's a pull-up guy off the dribble from mid-range with a kind of a classic, you know, Paul Pierce, Carmelo Anthony inspired game. And off the catch from three, the guy's nasty. He's one of the best shooters in the draft. He just needs to learn how to play defense and learn how to, you know, actually decide to pass the ball. And maybe in Will Hardy's system, he can learn those positive qualities.

So I think the jazz were, you know, all three of their guys they got in the first round, I had ranked in my top 17, Sensibleau being the lowest of the three at 17, Kiante, George, a little higher than that at 14. And then Hendricks at 6, I thought, you know, that crew came out, you know, as a significant upgrade. You get to come by this honest, too, because when I asked you a few weeks ago, who the guy that you thought you were higher on than your peers, That was the name that you told me,

sense of all. Yeah. And again, as we've mentioned many times, that pick, if you hit it, there is no greater value in the entire NBA than nailing the 29th or 30th pick because you have absolutely no means to get a player that could give you that production for a million dollars.

And I say this is someone who has just covered Desmond Bain for the last three years. If you hit that, if you hit that, you've got a starting or a starting player at best or a rotation player for a million bucks. You cannot get it any other way. And you've got it for four years. That to me is the best value in the entire NBA.

The trick is hitting it. It's not easy to hit it. But if you do hit it, and, you know, we're talking about Denver, and that's kind of their plate now is being, that's why they wanted those picks and made that trade to get into this, because they want to try to fill out their roster with guys in that range. Because you've got those guys for a million bucks for four years, and if you hit them, then you got Christian Brown, who they hit last year.

And the guy is one of the seven people playing for you. in the NBA finals, for God's sake, right? And if they hit it, they've got Jalen Pickett coming up this next year. Like, those, those are of the greatest of value. So if you're right about Sensible, that will end up being truly incredible. If he really is possibly the, you know, 17th or one of the best 20 players in this draft, and you were able to get him there, because you've just locked that in for four years. and if you can find anyone that contributes to your basketball team,

much less contributes in a big way for a million bucks, I mean, you are so far ahead of the curve in terms of team building. And with him, I think part of it was, I mean, he had two meniscus injuries in high school. So I'm sure, you know, I'm not sure if this was mentioned on the broadcast. We were recorded the podcast while he was selected last night. But I'm sure medical wasn't outstanding for him, considering the fact he's had those injuries at such a high age at a young age and and the fact that he's not like the best athlete off the dribble he's not super explosive he's more of a methodical

ball handler you know using feel and you know good handles to create space but i just i just think he's a bucket getter man i think he's one of those guys you throw him on to any court in the world he knows how to score and even if he's not off the dribble guy like he was at ohio state he still get a flame thrower from behind the arc. And like spot-op situations, he can be a weapon for you. It's just a matter of him embracing that role and kind of doing some of the other stuff

that he'll need to do to play in Will Hardy's system. He's the type of guy, I said this to you with Pickett and with Sensibaw. Like if I knew Sensibaw is landing in a system like Utah, I would have him probably slightly higher than 17. Not significantly. Pickett, I'd have much higher than 60. Do you think it would be interesting content-wise

for me to write a thing where I do like my post-draft redo rankings based off-case. You know, something like that or how I would rank these guys if I knew they would go where they are. Yeah, that type of thing. That would be great. Because that matters, you know? I think that's almost

that that almost matters more than your pre-draft rankings in a way. You know, 100% does, Kevin. I mean, look, I told you I have covered it two different ways over the years of covering an NBA team for 20 years, and this is why I'm so anti being bad on purpose. I watched careers literally get ruined instead of fulfilled.

Guys that I am sure would have been able, their whole basketball career in lives would have been different if they weren't playing on 60 lost teams and if they would have gone to a different spot. Likewise, I've seen it the other way, where now on a winning team, a player comes into a winning culture. And maybe like, you know, the guy, maybe Santiago Alma, he's not even in the league anymore if he gets drafted by one of those rat teams or something. Great example, really.

The perfect situation to be able to, you know, progress however he needs to progress. You know, because he's in a strong place. That guy could have been, you know, those are two-year basketball players or maybe the guy has a, I think he's going to have a double-digit career now. Yeah. And it's because he was nurtured, right? Sit down to the G-League, giving some minutes on the big stage. Everybody remains positive with him all the time. The next thing you know, Jared Jackson gets a terrible injury and the guy fills in for 20-something games super ably, you know?

and it's all about how where those guys go and their development at early age development, you know, to continue the thing we've talked about so many times with the analogy in schools. You take two different kids and we put them in a bad school or a good school. There are some that are just so exceptional they are going to overcome even being at a bad school

like Devin Booker. And then you're going to see the rest of the kids which is pretty much everybody else that Phoenix drafted over the course of six years. Their careers might have all been different. Some are just going to be so exceptional they see it through. And it doesn't matter. But the other ones, they probably, you know, it's a different world for Josh Jackson. If he doesn't go as a incredibly immature, you know, 19-year-old to a team that had no, you know, just no direction.

switching out coaches all the time and a terrible owner and like you know what I mean and maybe maybe it would have maybe it had maybe it had been a you know his career his his career destiny wouldn't have been great either but I doubt it says a talented guy really talented guy he's just so wildly immature and just you know never got ahead of the curve what what else stood out to you from I mean draft night like is there anything that anything big that yeah The big one is, again, something we've talked about so many times, which is in many ways the disservice we do to the highest level prospects in the world, even at a very young age. And I couldn't help but think about that as I watch two guys that were cover of magazine guys, number one pick in the draft guys. next Kevin Durant next whoever guys

Both Gigi and Amani Obviously I have a connection to both in the sense of I covered Imani the year that he was at Memphis Gigi Jackson just got drafted by the Grizzlies But two of those guys that if you would have looked And you would take it a snapshot four years ago They would have told you those guys Are going to be the number one pick in the draft

Or certainly in the top three picks in the draft. And now by the time we get to their actual draft night, because of immaturity, because of development that did not continue at the same rate, those guys are now in a position where they've got to try to make a team and are going to have to go prove themselves,

you know, when ego is a problem, and of course they have egos, we have built them up since they're 12 years old, And I'm not playing in society. Obviously, there's people that have got to keep these kids in line. But from the time they're 12 years old, they believe they're a star. And then when it doesn't work out, right? And they look up and they're playing in some kind of remote town in front of not that many people in the G League against 400 guys that are fighting like hell to try to get their shot in the NBA.

It's like, you're either going to look at that and go, I'm here for a reason. or are you going to look at that and you're going to resent it? And I've seen it two different ways, and I do think it's very humbling. I thought it was fascinating. Of course, I saw the Gigi Jackson interview last night, and he grabbed the microphone, and you know what he said? He said, I want to apologize to everybody at South Carolina.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm sorry. I'm sorry how I acted towards my teammates sometime. I'm sorry how I acted to my coaches sometimes. And then he said maybe the funniest quote ever. He goes, that was big head, Gigi. And now I'm littlehead Gigi. Little head Gigi.

Okay. Let's see if the actions back it up. The guys about to be a two-way player. Seriously. I know. Two guys that were supposed to be locks to be top five players in their respective drafts are now going to both have to be playing for whoever Cleveland is, like Lake Erie, and then they're missing hustle.

Yeah. And then trying to make a basketball team. Yep. I mean, like they're getting drafted alongside, you know, fifth year seniors. Yes. And in the 40s, right? I mean, that's the range where those guys typically go. There are these top lottery picks.

And I know they get built up by, you know, high school. magazines and then media picks it up and all that and they go viral on YouTube and everything like that but like these kids got like it's about growing i mean amani base has made many mistakes in his life uh gj jackson has as well he was a poor teammate last year he goes on instagram live and trashes as coaches yeah i think for nba teams they're right to you know question the maturity about bringing them into the organization which is why they fall into the second round so now for them. It's about responding from this adversity that they've been through, proving everybody that they can improve, proving to everybody else that they can get better from these mistakes. So for Gigi

Jackson saying that, I hope that he can, he's little head Gigi, as he said, and he figures it out with his size and versatility. I hope Amani Bates is able to tap into some version of himself that once wild people who typed his name into YouTube and saw next Kevin Durant. And I think for both of them, You know, hopefully for the Memphis Grizzlies, they've done a good job about developing players. The John Morant situation is more of an isolated incident, but they've done great job drafting and developing. And then for Cleveland, with Amani, he's going to a defense-first culture under J.B. Bickerstaff, you're not going to play unless you defend. He's got guys with, you know, Jared Allen, Evan Mowgli, by his side. If he does end up getting some NBA minutes, they can help support him.

Amani's in a situation that could be good for him. Donovan will be good for him. Yeah, I think so, too. Donovan's a consummate pro. Yes. And a leader, and that's his, you know what I mean? That's going to be his deal. As long as Mitchell keeps defending like he did last season and not like he ended his career with Utah, which was not so good.

No, I mean in the locker. I mean him holding. Oh, I know. I know. I understand. But you also need to show it on the court, too. Yeah, yeah. He's just a good person to look up to for young players.

I agree. I totally agree. I like it. Speaking of, in fact, you might see him walking right behind me here in a minute because he's here in town. Marcus Smart is a Memphis Grizzly. Oh, yeah.

How are you feeling, Chris? How you doing about getting the best flopper in the NBA? I'm over the moon. You've long hated. I have always loved Marcus Smart. Always. He is, he reminds me so much of my favorite guy ever, Tony. I know he does.

And it all lines up with Oklahoma State, Boston, and Memphis. Their same age, too, is when they came to Memphis. 29 years old, isn't that crazy? I saw a culture change dramatically when one guy came, and I do think that he is going to have the most prominent voice immediately. Beyond all, forget all the basketball analysis. They need that badly, a winner, a guy that's been in 100, eight playoff games, a guy that'll throw a chair in the locker room, a guy that'll tell

everybody we're not going out tonight if we got a big game the next night. You know, like, the guy is a, he will have a voice here that was even more powerful than the one he had in Boston because they need that. It is a gap. They have a lot of 23, 24 and unders. And they need someone to look up to. And they need someone that plays hard every single night in order to look up to. So I do think that he's going to fill a very necessary role, you know? Yeah. They didn't have a guy that if John Morant, you know, strolled in to shoot around a couple

minutes late, and I'm not telling you he did, but I'm saying if he did. And it looked like he had been out all night, which, as we know, is totally a possibility, They have anybody that would get up in his face. Now they definitely do. They have a guy to start a fight with them. And that's where, and what I'm saying is that's where everything changes. Those guys have such a profound impact.

The other thing is, and I heard you and Bill with Copa Paloosa after the heart and soul of your favorite team gets taken away. I thought we were very fair about it because we acknowledge that. I mean, it was 75 minutes of how awesome Porzingis is after one season of playing for a rat team. Chris, Chris, wait a minute, no. Wait, no, no.

We have talked about KP prior, and we talked about them in the fit. You and me about the fit in the context of Miami. And yes, you were against it. You said you wouldn't want Porzingis next to Bam. I argued for it with Porzingis being a potential major acquisition this offseason. So I think I've been consistent with KP. You've got to give me credit there. I'm saying on that pod, it's 75 minutes of how awesome Porzingis is.

and then 25 minutes of how Memphis just got a guy on the downside of his career or something. I think we were incredibly fair to Marcus Smart because we acknowledge that. You guys are smart haters. We were incredibly fair. We were fair because we acknowledged that he was not the same guy defensively last season. He was not compared to the year prior or years before that. You mean when he was defensive player of the year the year before? I mean, he's still one of the best perimeter defenders in the world.

He's still very good, but he was not the same last year. whether that was due to injury or something else, and it is worth acknowledging that you hope that he can get back to that level. And we did say, or at least I said, it's worth the bet for Memphis considering all that stuff you said, what he brings to the locker room, replacing Dylan Brooks with that tough-minded defender on the wing, Marcus Smart is worth it for the Grizzlies,

helping replace the playmaking loss with John Moran for the first 25 games of the season. It is, on paper, a win-win deal. It's a win-win deal for both of them. Well, especially when, and then on the other hand, the, when that deal came across, I thought, wow, that is fantastic for Boston. I don't love Brogden. And Brogden's played there one year. And Brogden, nobody's got any stock in Brockton. And Malcolm Brogden was gone.

So what? Like, it's not, it's not that big of a deal. Okay? You're trying to find Derek White minutes. And that's what was happening in the afternoon. I don't think Memphis ever considered that they could even attain Marcus Smart. And to me, I think it is something that Boston could regret. Just listen, hear me out in the sense of, you know, you were giving up Malcolm Brogden,

and that's what you were giving up in that deal. And then you got pressed, and the guy was hurt. And so now you ended up giving up something that you never intended on giving up to get poor Zingis. But you're too far down the road, and you were too far down the road, and you were too far in on Porzingis, and so then you end up getting rid of a guy that has been immense for your team for nine years and has started in 41 playoff games the last two years. A guy that they've tried to replace a thousand times that can never replace him because every coach ends up starting him and putting them out on the floor, sometimes to the frustration of Celtics fans. But they've been

through all manner of point guards over the years, all manner of guards, and he's, he's still remains. And he started all those games. He's been a part of that franchise, not only with what he's done on the court, but also off the court. And so I just think that, yeah, like the getting rid of Porzingis or getting Forzingus and giving up Malcolm Brogden, to me, that's way different than getting Porzengis and giving up Marcus Smart. Marcus Smart is so much more important to that organization than Malcolm Brogden is. And so I thought, I don't know, at that point, the price got too high. Well, I mean, of getting Porzingis is.

They got back more, Chris. It wasn't just Porzingis. It wasn't just Porzingis, though. They did get back to the first round pick that they turned into four extra first rounders, drafted Jordan Walsh, and then they got another future first round draft pick protected from the Warriors. So they did get additional assets. They got two first rounders, but really, with them giving up their pick, they moved up

10 spots in the draft. Yeah, so they move up 10 spots, but then they did pick up an additional four. first rounders to move back down. Right. So they effectively got that protected Warriors future first and Jordan Walsh and for second round draft picks giving up Marcus Smart in addition to acquiring Chris Stapsporting. So I get, yes, it's a risk for sure. I'm with you. But like Marcus just wasn't the same guy last year and like Bill and I talked about, you're

talking about the locker room variables on the Memphis side. The locker room variables on the Boston. inside are, like, Brown and Tatum now have space to hopefully grow into the, taking the next step as leaders and being the best players with an actual voice in the locker room. Smart took up all the air in that room. It was hard to coach for Missoula as a rookie head coach. I think for the Celtics, it was, it was just time. And that's, no, it's fine. So I think for both teams that made sense. And I mean, I have laughed at people saying like the problem with Boston last year and the problem that Boston has had and I'm like thinking

to myself, uh, they're in the East finals or the finals every friggin year. I'd love to have those problems. Give me those problems. In fact, I speak for virtually every fan out there except for maybe like Denver fans or maybe Warriors fans. Uh, give me those problems. I'll take them. You know, the nitpicky stuff about like, here was the problem with Boston. It's not like they're anything other than a team with a chance at a title every single year. And he's one of the five guys that plays. You know what I mean? Like, give me those problems. Those problems are minute.

Yeah, those are nice problems that have for sure. Yeah. With Mark is smart. You know, I mentioned this on Bill's Pod, but just want to also say it again here. Like, he was the best when my dad was doing chemotherapy. You know, he signed a jersey from my dad, post- a tweet on, you know, Twitter saying prayers for your dad. I mean, he put the biggest smile on my dad's face for years before my dad ever had cancer

and while he had cancer watching that Celtics team. So I'll always be Marker Smart. Yeah, that jersey will be framed and put on my wall no matter where I'm living, you know, for the rest of my life. I'm always going to have Marcus Smart 36 with the signed jersey to my dad in my home forever. It's fascinating to see anybody like that that has. an impact on a family member. And I know people have goofed on the fact that I brought up those Thompson twins.

But those Thompson twins were so nice to my son that I'll always root for him. I just will. So your son, right? I'll give you another one. And I hated to lose him was Tyos Jones. Oh, yeah. I love Ty's Jones. I love Ty's Jones.

I mean, great guy, great family, great teammate. I mean, just the best. The guy's great. One of my favorites I've come across. I hate to lose him. I hope he gets to be a starter in the league, you know, and certainly will. He kind of wanted to go, right? Of course he does.

He wants the opportunity, yeah. Yeah, because then you, you know, you play through your prime and then you look up one day and it's like, okay, now I'm, now I'm lifetime backup. Yeah. I get it. I do get it from his part. Yeah. When you spent $200 million on your starting point card, you're never going to get to start unless he's out, you know, which unfortunately he is out. and he's been out a lot.

You might get eight games here, 25 games here. He's certainly proven himself. They've won a ton of games with him as a starter. He saved two seasons. So I'll always have a soft spot for Tyos Jones as well. The only thing we didn't talk about was the Chris Paul thing, which we don't have to get in depth. You made your comments clear on Bill's pod.

I don't necessarily understand the fit. The big thing, though, to me is, you and I talked about how that that Draymond Poole thing was untenable. I never believed that you could have both of them and Dunleavy went to a press conference

and said Poole was going to be there so then I figured Drayvon's goal. Well, that him being there was obviously bunk because he ain't going to be there. So, I mean, I don't know. Guy got his face caved in and then got traded.

I mean, at least he got $130 million for his paying. And they were able to move off that contract. I mean, it just, to me, that signals, like, we can never say that how could you ever trade that contract? Like, it's again proof, like, somehow all of these contracts. Even the ones we think are the worst ever can get moved. It's got moved.

So he's moving on to Washington where, you know, they'll play games with maybe a big. video camera in there, maybe not. And then, Chris Paul, I don't, I don't like to fit with the Warriors, but it's going to be very interesting. That,

that Warriors fit, I can't wait to see how, I mean, if Dremont comes back, you can't play them both, because it's two non-shooters. I mean, Chris Paul.

Yeah. Chris Paul can, can shoot. No, he can't. From 15 feet. Yeah, I mean, he can shoot. He, he, He's not spacing the floor.

He's 37% from three in his career. And everybody stands 10 feet away from him and goes under screen. He can shoot. You know that. He can shoot. You watched. Everybody's trying to keep him away from the elbow. If you want to take threes, go ahead.

I know, but it's on Chris Paul to evolve at this point. I know he's 75 years old. I know. I know he is. Yeah, but he can, he can shoot. the other thing is the other interesting thing on that one is

if Draymond is there Chris is the culture think about everywhere he's gone I heard you guys say it's been traded six times he is the culture everywhere he goes this is the first time

he won't be the culture right that's fascinating to be yeah how does he adapt to not being the most important guy yeah in that locker room

the most accomplished guy in that locker room the guy that's won the most in that locker room. Most of the places he's been, that has been the case. Virtually all of them. He goes to the Clippers. He goes to Houston. He goes to even Oklahoma City.

You know, almost anywhere he steps foot in, he's like, he's got the most gravitas of anyone. That one's going to be fascinated to me. Because he has been the culture. And by the way, unbelievable culture. every he doesn't seem like the kind of just fit in with everybody guy never felt that way yeah oh it's going to be so fun we're not that far away summer league we got a bunch of free agency stuff about to take place uh draft was good last night thank you to our executive producer jesse lopez

as always and kevin i will talk to you next week i'm looking forward to it man two shows before free agency We're gonna be fucking.