The Mismatch - NBA Playoffs Update, State of the Jazz, and Bye Bye Lakers With Nate Jones | The Void

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Hey it's Kevin, thanks for listening to The Void. Today’s guest is Nate Jones, who is a marketer and agent for Goodwin Sports, a sports agency that represents NBA players like Damian Lillard and Matisse Thybulle. Nate is never afraid to go against the grain or ask tough questions on social media, so he’s long been one of my favorite NBA personalities. But this is actually the first conversation we’ve ever had and I thought it went great. I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did. Here are today's timestamps: (05:40) - Reality hit hard for the Cavs (13:47) - Would you be worried about James Harden as a Sixers fan? (25:56) - On Rudy Gobert and Utah Jazz (32:53) - Imagining Rudy Gobert on the Celtics (41:26) - The rise of the 2 bigs lineup (50:33) - On Jabari Smith Jr (59:20) - Is this years draft class worth tanking for? (01:09:20) - On Lakers missing playoffs / LeBron's legacy (01:17:20) - Who's the better rapper, Damian Lillard or Miles Bridges? Host: Kevin O'Connor Guest: Nate Jones Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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catchphrases into history. Listen now. Hey, welcome to The Boy. My name's Kevin O'Connor. And joining me today is my friend from NBA Twitter, Nate Jones. What's going on, Nate? What's good, my man? How are you? I'm doing great today, Nate. We've actually never met in person. It was our first time ever talking virtually on a Zoom here. But we've DM texted a bunch over the years and obviously I've exchanged a bunch of tweets together. Who are you? What do you do, Nate? You're very mysterious to a lot of people on Twitter, but you have great takes. Yeah, nothing against media, but for some reason, everybody on everyone, a lot of people on Twitter assume that I'm NBA media.

I just, I love the game and I built up a following over the years just talking about the game. But, you know, for a career, business, I've been in the sports agent game for about 14 years. You know, I'm not one of those guys that sits and negotiates contracts with NBA teams. I really focus on their off-the-court business. Our agency, Goodwin Sports does all that stuff, but, you know, I'm mainly focus on that stuff. So I worked with guys like Dane Lillard-Dorosen, you know, in the past, worked with Katie and Dwight Howard when I first started.

So it's really what I do. And then on top of that, recently with a couple NBA players, a few NBA players, we started incubating and started a new athletic insult brand called Move Insoles. And I have Dame as a co-founder, CP3 as a big investor, Jamal Crawford, Anthony Tolliver, Matisse Thibel, a bunch of different guys involved. So super excited about that. you know, the love of the game has been there forever. So I've been playing my entire life.

I've been watching my entire life, been interested in the business side of it, you know, since I was a teenager with the 96 free agent class. So it's just in me, you know. Yeah, I mean, the 96 free agent class, that sounds like kind of my version of just playing that. Yeah, yeah. The OG's note from NBA Live 96,

you used to be able to really keep your, that was the first version of the game where you're able to create players in Rosti. Yeah, man. And like, if you put in certain players' names that weren't in the game, they would show up magically with all their attributes. And I don't know what kind of trademark violations

and things of that nature that they had. But like, if you put Michael Jordan's name in the game, he wasn't actually in the game. But if you put his name in the creative player mode, number 23 would show up with it. attributes and stuff like that. So, yeah, I've been at it for a while. Those were the days with video games.

I wish I could enjoy a man or 2K as much these days. That may even not have been in the 90s, but the mid-2000s, at least when I grew up, when I was a kid, you're a little bit older than me, clearly. Yeah. I'm aging myself out because honestly the last... I'm born 1990, so I was too young for, you know... Yeah, you're...

96. My younger sister was born in 1990. So I'm nine years older than her. So that gives you an empty of out. Well, then doing the math of my head. Yeah. But I'm 41 years old, 1981, first year of the millennials. So, you know, I've, I've, I've been, you know, got to see the tail end of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and then, you know, into MJ.

It's like, lawyer years and all that stuff. So got to see, you know, the height of basketball, I would say, right? I've seen all of it. Did you watch any NBA on NBC at all? Or was that? Did you completely miss out on that? Like, I'm sure, I know it. Like, I know the sound.

It's been on when I was a kid. And I probably watched it, not with my dad. Yeah. But I don't have any recollection personally, any memory from, you know, that amazing theme song. Yeah, they're just the way they covered the game. And the play that was happening on the floor was amazing, man. Yeah.

It's, it's, hopefully at some point, we're able to hit to integrate, the fluidity and the spacing and the shooting and the finesse of today's game with some of the physicality. I think we are moving on that way with some of the rise of the bays, which we'll talk about during today's pod. But it was a busy night in the NBA on Tuesday night because there's no games on Monday. So a lot changed. We've talked about quite a bit of it on Tuesday morning's pod with Chris Vernon. Let's update some things first in the Eastern Conference. Now in the east, Miami is currently the one seat.

They beat the Hornets, 144 to 115. They're up two and a half games. They need just one win to clinch the top seed. Boston, Milwaukee, and Philly are all tied at 49.30 second through fourth in the east. With the calves losing to the magic, the Raptors beating the Hawks. Now Toronto has clinched the top six seed in the east and the Bulls lost to the Bucks, but they stay in the top six, a game back from Toronto, and then in the playing. Cleveland likely stays at 7.

Brooklyn and Atlanta tied at 41 and 38. Charlotte is a game back at the 10 seed. So, whew. I was a lot there. Covered it pretty well. You know the one team I feel bad for at this stage? It's like Cleveland's been that little engine that could all year long. And then now it's like reality's starting to hit.

This is why you play 82 games. And now they're in the playing game and, you know, anything can happen in the playing. You know, maybe they avoid Brooklyn in the first game and they have a real chance of, you know, flinching and locking up seventh. But, you know, if they play Brooklyn the first game, who knows what's going to happen. Yeah, I mean, I ultimately, though, even if this season ends poorly for Cleveland, like let's just say they lose two in the playing and they get bounced. It doesn't change the fact that you have like one of the crown jewels of the 2021 draft and Evan Mowbly.

Doesn't change the fact that Darius Garland has taken a leap that guys like Jared Allen, Larry Marketing, Okoro, LaVert are all looking good. Kevin Love, he's back. Yeah. You know, in a new role off the bench. So, you know, for a team like Cleveland, it may be disappointing to end this way. But ultimately, all the positive progress is something they can build on into the future, like we've seen a team with our Miami Heat do.

They're on top of the east right now. And I want to start with them because they're at the top here. Butler is 27. Bam is 22. Hero with 35 off the bench. We get Duncan Robinson sliding from the starting lineup to the bench with Max Trues starting here. Nate, when I think about the heat, they have all of those. qualities that you look for in a team that can win the championship with the number of stars

that you can lean on every night, but also the number of role players and secondary guys that step up every single night. They're the one seed right now. They're on the verge of clinching. Do you think that they deserve the status of the favorite in the Eastern Conference to go all the way? Yeah. You know, if you're talking about a team that's been through battles, a coach that's been through battles, a player like Jimmy Butler, whose mentality, you already know what it is. And the same thing with Kyle Lowry. They've got these two grizzled dogs that are, you know,

ready to go to war. And they've got guys like PJ Tucker and they've got bam. And then you've got some, you know, finesse scoring type guys like Duncan Robinson and Tyler Hero. Right. And it's going to be interesting to see what happens with them. But I, you know, personally, I don't have the heat of it. as the favorite.

Who is it then? But really, before Rob Williams got hurt, I had Boston as the favorite. And I just thought that they're, I don't think anyone can beat with them defensively, the way that they played defense, just their versatility,

the ability to switch everything. Even if you watch the Dallas game, the way Luca Donchich was, you know, kind of picking them apart a little bit, but you saw Al Horford and Rob Williams holding their own against Luca on switches. Like what other team has the personnel to be able to pull that off?

And I think Jason Tatum's taking his game to another level. You know, I'm a little biased and work with Jalen Brown. But, you know, I'm a big fan of what he's been able to do. I think Marcus Smart is playing better basketball than he has his entire career. You know, that's the team to me. If Rob can, if they can survive around and get Rob back, I think they have a real chance of going all the way. Miami is going to need, like, you know, at the end of the day,

Lowry is older. So I don't know what Lowry they're going to get. Obviously, he's always going to be one of the smartest players in the court. He's always going to be one of the toughest players in the court. But what can he elevate his game in the playoffs? And then I'm starting to wonder the same thing about Jimmy Butler at this stage of his career. Can he be Jimmy Butler from two years ago that we saw in the bubble? When you're going through the playoffs, you're going to need someone to step up in that nature.

If we watched the playoffs last year, the way Kevin Durant was playing in that series against Milwaukee, the way Janus played throughout the entire playoffs, does Miami have a guy that can take it up to that level? We know Boston has a guy like that. We know Milwaukee has a guy like that. We know Philadelphia has guys like that. I mean, I guess you can question it a little bit with Hardin. Even down to the nets with them in the play-in, we know. know that they have players that can still take it to that.

And I'm not saying that Jimmy and Kyle can't at this stage, but I'm wondering if they still have that in them. And if they don't have that, how do they get by teams? That's my real question with them. It's a fair question with them. It is. I mean, because Kyle Lari, on one hand, you can say, okay, these are some incredibly low offensive numbers

that we haven't seen from him in years since he was younger. He's shooting only 10 times per game down from 13. nowhere close to his career highs of 15, 16 during the heyday in Toronto, but when they had to Mar-Darra Rosen back in the day. And with Jimmy Butler, you know, he's a bucket. He can get to the basket. He can get to his spots, but still not the guy who when he's not able to get inside can kill you with three-pointers like Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving.

So with Miami, it's going to have to be elite defense. Bam out of bio is if he had played more games would probably be a more serious candidate. for the defensive player of the year. It's going to be that have to be that type of thing from Miami, whereas I think with Boston, you brought them up, and I think that's a great point here. They have those defensive qualities that Miami has the toughness,

the versatility, the ability to play different styles, different schemes, depending on the opponent or what tone that they want to set. Whereas with Boston, though, they have Marcus, they have hopefully Robert Williams, they have Tatum, who, by the way, should be on that bubble for all defensive teams. I'm not going to have him on mine in all likelihood,

but it should be on that long list. And on offense, though, you have a bunch of dudes that can just go off, particularly Tatum and Jalen Brown. They can play together. They can take turns. They can play within the flow of the offense with ball movement and cutting and motion.

Boston, they have everything minus Robert Williams. Why is Robert Williams so important to their actual title hopes come postseason time? well on the offensive side you obviously have you know that lob threat and someone that just I mean the guy dumped on him Anthony Davis like three or four times in game this year like how many players can say that yeah and then offensively he's just like I mentioned earlier the stuff I saw against Luca like he was actually holding his own on switches and then in terms of you know help and being able to protect the paint like he's just a smart athletic defensive player

He's one of the best defensive vicks in the entire league and definitely one of the most versatile in the entire league. And he doesn't really make a lot of mistakes. Like, I mean, he's still a relatively young and experienced player. And I'm actually impressed with his head smart so far. Yeah, he's come a long way. Even when it comes to the head smarts, his passing ability, the quick, the quick-case decisions that he makes on the offensive end of the floor.

So I think we're on the same page on paper with what Boston can be. with Robert Williams. Miami, I don't think you can pull them out, but ultimately they're probably not even on the same level in terms of upside with what a team like Philadelphia could be. We saw tonight and B's scoring 45 points, looked like a guy

who is very angry about not being the leader in the MVP race, which I don't really want to talk too much about MVP and all that. But with the Philly team, however though, tonight they have 30 points from Maxi. Another

off-ish night for James Hardin. How concerned would you be if you were a Sixers fan about what we've seen from Hardin after his first three games, which are great. He looked terrific with Philly at first, but now he's more like the guy that we've seen the last year or so, where it's just not quite the same level James Hardin we've seen in the past.

How worried would you be as a Sixers fan? Yeah, I don't know if he's fully recovered from that hamstring issue that he's dealt with. It's got to be part of it. talking to players over the years, I think fans think of like, he's got an ACL injury or, you know, is a MCL injury,

he's got a meniscus injury, like anything with a knee or, you know, rolling your ankle or breaking a bone, like, you know, compound fractures like Gordon Hayward's injury. Oh, yeah. They're more concerned. Fans usually look at that as like a negative

and they think of something as more negative and then they look at something like a hamstring or groin or, you know, ad duct or whatever. as not that big of a deal. And those things really slow players down for a long time. You're not able to return. You've seen Chris Paul, for instance,

in his last couple years in Houston. What he was dealing with with that, I think people just assume that it wasn't going to linger. He had to change up his entire off-season regimen and how he was going about things in order to be able to get back to the player he is now. Like people thought his career was he was done. You know, it's almost like the whispers that you hear about Hardin, like he's not the same player.

And seeing what Chris Paul went through, he might be seeing the same thing. So it's probably going to be almost like an offseason type situation where he's going to have, where he'll have to work on it to get it back to where he was before. But or maybe he's just coasting. Who knows, right? Maybe he's just like, this doesn't matter, right? He really could be. The playoffs, I'm going to turn it on and turn into whatever. But if he's still dealing with, if he's still trying to recover from the hamstring injury,

it's no surprise that he's not able to get to the basket the way that he, all of, honestly, go back and look at the things people were saying about Chris Paul when he was like in the, what was that, the 2019 season where, you know, he heard it. The first time he really heard it was the 2018, in more recent years, obviously at clipper injuries with the clippers with the hamstrings as well. But in Houston, he heard it in the conference finals. And then he was never the same the rest of the time in Houston. And he took that time in 2019 to really rebuild his body.

And he was amazing in Oklahoma City. And he's been amazing ever since. He's had no issue with it. And you kind of see the same whispers happening about Hardin. And if it's really connected to the hamstring, it completely makes sense. No, I mean, I hadn't heard anybody bring up the Hardin-Christ Paul connection there, but it does totally make sense the way people are talking about Hardin right now. And I remember that offseason when Chris Paul was dealt, this was the Paul for Westbrook deal.

And I interviewed Mike Dantone for a story. We ended up never running. I've probably mentioned this on the pod before. But I'll never forget the way Dan Tony talked about CP3 to me. He's like, people have no idea what they're talking about. Like he still has it. He's going to prove it an OKC. Like, Antonio, Tony said it with so much confidence.

It wasn't just him, you know, gassing up one of his former players. this was genuinely him being baffled by the way people were talking about Chris Paul. He got into the difficulties in him and Hardin having to coexist. He got into the trouble with the injuries. He's like, this guy's going to turn it around. He's going to figure it out. Maybe he knew a little bit about him changing his whole summer. He did not mention that to me at the time.

But he was right. And with James Hardin, granted, you know, maybe he's a bit more of a partier than this fall. He might have some more late nights out. He might need to change more than. just diet and workout regimen. He might have to change lifestyle as well. But you can't rule out Hardin turning back into the James Hardin that we saw for three games with Philly when he was looking like his same old self or at least closer to a version

that we saw in the past and with Embed. That's where the excitement is for a Sixers fan. The fact that you have Maxie who can play off those guys with the ball in his hands or without as a cutter as a shooter. I mean, he's so good in so many different roles with Hardin as a as a perimeter guy who can get to the basket and then Embed who can dominate the game any which way. I don't want to talk MVP, but I do want to ask you, though, which way would you be leading if you were a voter with Ambienniz, and Yokic?

Honestly, it really is a hard question to answer because I feel like the standard for what the MVP is continues to change. It used to be the best player on the best team. David Booker. Maybe like, Draymond Green, that was his argument for Booker. But over the last five or six years,

that hasn't necessarily been the case. And I think a lot of that is, you know, people got tired of LeBron and then they got tired of the Warriors. So that was like, right? So, so,

you know, when LeBron was dominating and, you know, on one of the two best teams, we're not giving them the award anymore. And then Steph became that guy because they were dominating and, um, doing their thing.

but then when they got Durant, it's like, okay, we're not giving anybody on the Warriors the MVP. So how about Russell Westbro? James Howard. Right, exactly. And there's players that have had phenomenal, you know, years in the past that weren't on teams that, you know, were necessarily winning. And they would have that held against them. And I don't know if that's necessarily fair. If you look at a situation like Yokic, like you see what he's.

playing with. Larry Joe Yokic is what I call him. So he's out there doing everything. Like he's, you know, new age Larry Bird and seven footers body. And I think what he's been doing is amazing, but it's just a matter of, is that, is it okay for them to be a sixth seed or fifth seed and him win the MVP? Well, Russell Westbrook already set that standard a few years ago. But then you look at someone like Embed and the turmoil that they had the entire year, right?

You know, you've seen controversy sync teams. Like, I think people just take that for granted to have your second best player and be like, nah, I'm good. I'm not showing up. I'm not playing. I'm holding out. Like, that could sink a team. And he kept them, you know, to a stage to where they're still have a chance to win a chance. Obviously, they're harder now.

But they were still a contender and still a potential, you know, top four. seed out east with all that controversy going on and without their second best player the entire year. So you got to give him credit for that. Janice, I mean, to me, he's the best player in the NBA right now. I agree with you. Best player in the NBA, not necessarily MVP. Not necessarily MVP. It might be MVP. He does. He does every. I mean, the guy is, and he contend, you know, I think Janus isn't necessarily as aesthetically pleasing. His game is an, as aesthetically pleasing as like Yolkits and M.B. He just runs a dunks, right, James?

To some people, but I see, I see a passion for the game. I see someone that loves the game and loves competition, continues to improve his game every year. He loves to get better, growth mindset, and everything he does, everything he says. And he's, he's killing, man, he's amazing. So, you know, I think Yokic, the story about taking this Denver team to the playoffs, is probably going to put him across the finish line. And then, you know, everyone that's looking at all the,

all of the relevant stats and advanced metrics, obviously, like Yokic's numbers are off, you know, off the hook. So I could see Yokic at the end of the day. I think he's going to take it back to back. But Embed really has a real argument. And if you're just talking about best, to me, best player, like you see that guy and just like, damn, like we got to do, we got how are we defending,

honest tonight. He's the new age shack in a lot of ways, right? So, but yeah, I see Yokch taking it, but I think all those guys have a real argument for it. And I'm going to throw my bias in here a little bit for two seconds. Even though they've fallen off, I think we got to give my guy to Rosen a little bit a love for what he's done this season, especially because people wrote him off as a that, you know, the league had passed by.

Which was so silly. Anybody that watched them in San Antonio the last few years? I think sometimes when you're looking at advanced metrics, people get caught up and they don't take the context into it. And then they also don't think about, you know, the things that he was asked to do. In San Antonio, he was more of the, you know, he was the playmaker for that team in a lot of ways.

And he kind of went away from being like, I'm going to try to score 40 every single night. but he's so efficient and so good at it now and you're kind of seeing that in Chicago it's just a shame that you know what they built with with you know the defensive guards long defensive versatile guards

those guys all got hurt so it's it's kind of hurt them a little bit but Damar himself in terms of what he's supposed to do has been outstanding so I know he's not going to end up winning the MVP but you've got to give him a shout out for what he's done especially because of the way people had kind of written him off as a superstar no doubt and DeMarre Dore is an obviously

deserve some all-in-b-a consideration, at least the third team. Not so sure he'll end up getting it, but he deserves to be on the pile of players that are in consideration for that. And with the Bulls, it really does suck, man. Like, you lose Patrick Williams, then you lose Caruso and Ball. You get those guys back. Lonzo's out now, likely for the rest of the season it was announced earlier today. It's just, it's just too bad to see that situation fall apart. But with that said, it's year one of this group and I don't think they could have necessarily expected to be that great

that soon so now it's going to be about how do they retool this over the offseason and continue to build up but they're in a great starting spot they really are to be back in it next year in the Western Conference we saw San Antonio beat Denver which is big from last night because Minnesota lost

to Washington and the Lakers lost to the sun so that means the Lakers are out the Nuggets have had two-game lead and the wolves to hold on to the six seed, but the jazz have clinched a six seed, so let's start with them. Nate, you were tweeting the other than night about Rudy O'Bear, who I have long loved, does mismatch listeners know? He this past week was caught up in some kind of Twitter controversy with the stat about

Mitchell throwing him the ball only two times per game, and by the way, in tonight's game, Mitchell did only throw him the ball two times. I looked at the second spectrum of tracking stats. But what are your overall thoughts just right now about the state of the jazz and especially the state of Rudy Gobert? This is why teams only stay together for four to five years. Because of Twitter? No, not because of Twitter, but just you just get tired, man.

Obviously, you have, there's a bond that a team has in order for them to be able to be as successful is I know people are going to be on success. They haven't won a championship. But to be a team that continuously wins 50 games and it's one of the top defensive teams and, you know, list goes on. There is, there has to be some kind of belief and bond and all of that. And I think after a while, when you start to have trust issues with each other over certain things, it can fracture a team and you're starting to see that a little bit.

They don't trust Rudy offensively. That's obvious. and he doesn't trust them or feel supported by them on defensively. And that seems to be what's coming to the table. But on the Rudy Gobert aspect about the debate about him as a player, I think that guy gets, you know, he gets crapped on more than anybody in a way that like I just, I don't see how people don't understand that it's not his fault. Defensively, when people pick apart the jazz,

They think that they're, you know, I've seen things about fans will say, Rudy, there's a meme about Rudy getting run off the floor in the playoffs. And you look at his playoff minutes every year. It's like, what are you talking about? He's their best defensive player. They're not sitting him. They wish they could play him more than 48 minutes. Exactly. If he could actually play that many minutes, he would.

It's not him getting run off the floor. And then the aspect of, you know, they're blaming him for the shortcomings of the rest of the team. You know, they're vulnerable defensively because teams realize they bring Rudy out. They have, even though Rudy can hold his own, especially for a seven-footer, they have no shot of defending the lane or anything like that. So that's when you get the scrambling and all of that. And the reason Rudy's got to come out is because the perimeter defenders can't hold their own. And it's just, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't, but he's the easy target because he's the guy,

you know, awkward dude that's cried about, you know, missing the All-Star team and things of that nature. So he's just an easy target to pick on. Americans love picking on French guys. It's just what it is. So he's, and then you have to coat. They also love to pick on people who rank French players first in the drafts.

I mean, I found out that I was killing an A. Definitely. And then the COVID, the COVID, you know, to everybody's treating him like he's the outbreak monkey. Like he was like patient zero for, for, for, for COVID and and you know that's that's that's that's not fair obviously it's some ignorant stuff but like that's not fair either so you're your your your your all of that stuff is is coming to him which is

interesting because he's a gritty defensive player that doesn't talk trash like usually people hate defensive players that you know like the reason they hate Patrick Beverly or their their draymond or whatever so they're they're automatically hating on those guys because of the way that they approach trash talking and getting, bending the rules and whatever. Rudy isn't one of those guys. The only thing I can see is just all those things. He didn't even take the bait when Taylor Roos

interviewed him and she's like Taylor was giving an opportunity. Like, hey, this is what guys are saying about you. Not once. Yeah. Then Rudy take the bait. He seems to be a genuinely nice guy. And I think NBA fans, it's very, what's difficult is that we all learn the game in its simplest form,

you know, playing 101, 2 on 2, 3 on 3, or pick up basketball. And in those instances, everyone's supposed to defend their own guy. So like there's very few players you can play with in pick up basketball where they understand team defensive concepts and you can run that way. If you're playing with someone that can't defend their man, then everyone's on that guy or, you know, whatever else. And it's looked at that way. And you can't really, I think for the average fan analyzing team defense is really difficult.

I think I saw, I want to give a mean credit for this, but I think you may have said something about analyzing how NBA, how we still think NBA defense and just the NBA game itself is still analyzed, like the average fan can comprehend everything. Whereas like the NFL fans know, they don't know crap, right? They don't know any of the schemes. They don't know what's going on. They're just there to enjoy the game.

And the NBA, everyone's a freaking expert, right? That's a good point. Yeah. But the reality is it's way more complicated. And you can see it by the responses of the things people say around Gobert. Like, I had Warriors fans are going off on him after this weekend, where they were sending me video of Gobert that was supposed to be like Gobert playing bad defense. Oh, like Gobert.

So at the fourth quarter of that game, there was Clay Thompson, Jordan. pool taking pull up three after pull up three with Gobert drop into the paint. Those are the players, right? Yeah. And that's because the team is telling him to stay and drop. But it's like, it's like, oh, look, Gobert doesn't know what he's doing. And they have to tell him to stay and drop because if they tell him to switch, that brings Gobert out to the perimeter as you stead. And the problem there is even though Gobert individually might be able to hold his own, If you're pulling Gobert away from the paint, that means you got like Royce O'Neill inside protecting the paint. That means you got Bogdanovich in there protecting the paint.

And there's no interior protection. There's nobody who can offer resistance on the outside. There's nobody who can offer resistance on the outside. I don't see how anybody could have watched the Clippers Jazz series last year and not said, oh yeah, Reggie Jackson getting by Jordan Clarkson is Rudy Gober's fault. Richie Jackson getting past Boyan Bogdanovich is Rudy O'Barris' fault. Reggie Jackson getting past so on and so forth.

I mean, it's everybody. It really is. The meme is, Rudy is easily memeable. And the funny thing is if you take any of the best defensive players against any of the top offensive players, even a guy like Jordan Clarkson, who's just, you know, he's a phenomenal offensive player. He's not a superstar, but he can cook you, right?

top defensive players, perimeter defensive players, have highlights where they're cooked all the time. Like, it just, it happens. That's what happens when you play in the NBA.

With Rudy, because people want to target him, they'll take Kevin Durant crossing him over to mean that he cannot hang on the perimeter at all, right? And it's like, okay,

you're going to take the one or two highlights that this player has against him and use it as evidence that this dude is terrible switching or terrible stepping out on the perimeter and win. the bulk of evidence shows otherwise. So, you know, I feel bad for the guy in a lot of ways,

but I think what's going to end up happening is he's going to go to another. It seems like the jazz are either going to, you know, completely tear down, restart, you know, based on where they're, where they've headed this year in the off season, or they're going to trade Gobert, right? And I think he's going to end up going somewhere and shine in a way that he, even beyond what he's achieved in Utah so far, if he can stay healthy.

And imagine him with Tray Young. He's not able to get easy buckets in Utah because the guy that dominates the ball in Utah isn't really a pure playmaker. He's not really a guy that you look to to set the table and make plays for other people. He definitely isn't like a great lob passer, all those things, right?

Even Conley had to learn how to throw lobs after pick and popping for years with Marcus Sol and Zach Randolph. I mean, it's a totally different game. game for him as well. Yeah, if you, if you got, if you have Rudy playing for, um, Atlanta or Dallas, you know, you know, one that I'm, um, thinking about, but I just don't know if, I don't know if Boston wants to go all the way in like that. Oh, is, would this be moving time Lord, Robert Williams? Yeah. Yeah, that would be, you know, where I had, I had that on my list. Yeah, man. That's that, and, and that, that is, if, if Boston's will. I'll tell you what, Brad

Stevens would like Gobert. I'm not saying they would trade for him, but like I know, I know that's his type. That's Brad Stevens type. I don't even like, obviously Robert Williams is an incredible player and what Al brings the table incredible. But if they can go bear, the defense that next year is like, it could be the best defense we've seen in, you know, 20 plus years. Oh, yeah, since probably 04 Pistons, maybe.

Yeah, it's, is that, is that unreasonable? Gobert, smart, Tatum, Brown, Horford. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, they have, they have, I, I think in that situation, they might have to move out, though, so just, you know, financially, right? So, but, you know, Gobert is going to play, what, 36 minutes, 35, 36 minutes a night, at center, and then, you know, all those guys can switch everything. So, and go, and then you, I think you were really see for the first time, Gobert, people would realize, oh, man, Gobert can actually hold his own on the perimeter.

We just didn't know it because we're blaming him for everybody else's mistakes. But now you have a team where they all switch, hold their own recover. You're unleashing Rudy Gober in ways that he's never been able to be unleashed in Utah because he has to be that stop gap, right? I'm 100% with you, man. Seriously, I feel the same way about him in a situation like Brooklyn even. Let's say Brooklyn was like, you know what, we want to trade out of Ben Simmons. That's, to me, that's a no-braxton, you know? That's a no, to me, that's a no-brainer also.

You know, I don't, you know, some of the stuff like KD and those guys have picked on him over the year, so I don't know if they're not necessarily. But you feel differently. Yeah, when the guys on the guys on your team, you completely. When he's cleaning up your mistakes, 82 games throughout the season, you'll learn to love him. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I could totally with Ben Simmons, but who knows if Utah would want him either. But, yeah, with the Mitchell fake rookie of your stuff. Not even that.

It's just who knows what's going on with that. Like, you know, not to speak negatively about him because who knows, you know, mental health or his back or, you know, what's going on. Not to not to, I don't want to insinuate that he's ducking competition right now, but he just hasn't played. And I don't know if any team is going to give up a guy like Gobert for someone that hasn't, you know, played in a year. So it's a more unrealistic idea.

Yeah. Boston, you could actually say, oh, Robert Willey. Williams, you know, Orford picks, you know, young guy here. Maybe in that case there's something that could appeal to Utah. But ultimately, though, with the Jazz, they win on Tuesday night. So obviously, happy night for Utah fans. But ultimately, it doesn't change the fact that there's been a recent skid here and that there's plenty of worrisome signs for what's to come in the postseason

considering the fact they've gotten beaten in the same ways that they have in the past. Is there any logic that's moving Mitchell instead of Gobert? We're talking about Gobert how he could fit anywhere else. Is there any logic to that from a Utah standpoint? If you're Danny Aange. Yeah, I don't know the Utah market that well. One of the things I said on Twitter is I think you have to consider the business aspect of it. I think Gobert is pretty popular in Utah.

But overall, Mitchell sells Jersey. You would hope Mitchell sells jerseys puts butts in seats. He's the highlight reel of that team. I think in terms of guys that show up on highlights and might have commercials and things of that nature, that's probably the first. You're telling me that the Rudy Gobert screen assists aren't going viral. Exactly.

You're telling me that him, you're telling me that Rudy go bears sprinting from underneath the basket on one side to the paint on the other side, not getting a touch, but causing the defense to rotate inside to open a three-point. Are you telling me that doesn't make highlights? Yeah, that should make highlights. That it's important.

It leads to winning. That is not making highlights. So I think that they have to think about that. But then on the other side of it, they have to really assess if Don wants to stay there long term, right? Obviously, he's believing in the first year of his extension because he's 2017 class, right? So he's got four more years. I mean, well, three plus a player option, right?

Yes, the option. Yes, the option. Same for Gobert, by the way. He has a three plus one remaining. Yeah, Gobert's not opting. And less than for a pay raise. Yeah, unless it's for a pay raise, but we'll see what they're paying centers. Even ones as good as him by the time that option comes around.

But for Don, if he's not really committed to staying in Utah and wants to be there, even though you obviously have the contract to hold him there, you're going to run into the same situation. He's going to have a year, you know, close to a year left or two years left. and he's going to tell you, I don't want to be there anymore. And so you kind of have to make that preemptive strike, which is funny because Utah was the team that just all of a sudden traded Darren Williams without him realizing he was about to get traded. You know, so they have a history of making those decisions when they realize, you know,

this isn't a situation that, you know, is going to work out long term. Obviously, I don't think you have Donovan Mitchell arguing with his coach and getting to the point where Jerry Sloan's going to retire type situation. You hope not. With the, with, you know, Darren Williams and Jerry Sloan back in the day. But I just, you know, it's a tough situation. You're, you know, there's the realities of business versus the realities of what players are

want and what they're looking for. And you got to find a guy that wants to be there. And it's hard to, you know, at the end of the day, you got guys like, you know, my guy dame like he loves portland and genuinely wants to be there and is and you know as long as he feels like the organization's going in the right direction he's going to try to you know play where he's happy and not every player likes playing in cities like salt lake city or you know Portland or i know i'm going to get hit up but people say it portland's better in the south lake city but there's

you know i used to perception wise you mean i used to have to travel to Oklahoma City all the time when I work with Durant earlier in my career. And, you know, there's some players that they're just like not the experience that they want to have, right? No matter if those fans are amazing. You know, the organization in terms of the team,

amazing. But not everyone wants to be a part of that. So especially a big city kid. He might not be his situation. I don't want to put words in his mouth or, you know, make any assumptions, but they've got away all of that because Rudy is a special player despite his reputation on

on social media and the debate shows. Like they've got to decide if it's worth giving up a player like that. And that probably is committed to the organization, likes playing there, what likes the city, whatever versus someone that, you know, might be trying,

you know, there's been whispers. I saw a Tim McMahon report that, you know, he's, or mentioned, Tim McMahon mentioned that Don doesn't want to be there long term. So if that's really true,

it's hard to trade Beaubair and Key. him. Maybe they want to trade both and start over. I mean, that's always a possibility too. Ainge might want to do it his own way. I mean, the one, the argument in favor of Gobert over Mitchell is the fact that you can find guards. You

can't find a rim protector like Rudy Gobert. Guards come in every year that can get buckets for you. Can they get buckets on the level of Mitchell? Like, he's proven he can do in the playoffs? That's a totally different conversation. But there's always guards that you're willing to invest in and try to make things work with. And, you know, you were talking

about the idea of Rudy Gobert in a role like Robert Williams and what he could do in a role like that. It's been such a interesting thing. I had a conversation with an assistant coach earlier this year, earlier today for a story that I'm working on. And I asked them about, you know, the rise of the two bigs from a coaching standpoint. Does he see this as something that more teams are going to increasingly do with the draft class coming in? Like we got Paulo Bancaro, Chad Holmgren, Jabari Smith next year, Victor Wenbanyama, 7'3 French, you know, center. He's ridiculous. He's like a better version of Chad Holmgren.

He's everything in more that you wish Christab's Porzingis was. That's what Wenban Yama is going to be. So you get all these great bigs coming in. Don't worry. I read your draft breakdown. Oh, my mock draft? Yeah. I mean, in that, I mentioned Mark Williams.

I had him mocked to the Timberwolves. And I was like, hey, what about the idea of? you know, two bigs, you know, then the Timberwolves can play Mark Williams with Kat. You know, you kind of, you know, have Cleveland doing that with Mobley and Allen. You get the Grizzlies. We saw that tonight with Stephen Adams, Jaron Jackson Jr., defending all over the court, blasting three pointers off the dribble. Like, it's crazy.

What teams are doing is they're having one interior big, Jared Allen, Stephen Adams, Brooke Lopez, you know, the, and then you've got somebody else in the perimeter. Robert Williams at the perimeter defense, Al Horp from the inside. on the perimeter, Jaron Jackson on the perimeter, Evan Mobley on the perimeter, and those guys also tend to have more offensive skill. Do you see this continuing to be a trend or perhaps something that teams intend to build with?

Because all of those teams that are doing it, they have really good defenses. Yeah, so the question is how many of those, and I think Sharks talks about it a lot about the type of player that he really likes is the big that has guard skills. And it's not just guard skills offensively. It's guard skills defensively, like versatile enough to guard all over the floor and then also get big in the lane

and help and block shots, get rebounds, all of that. How many of those guys exist? Because that's, if you only have a handful of those guys, how many teams are going to be able to implement that? strategy. I think there might be me kind of seeing it with Boston. I also see Horford kind of like as he's still, even though

he's an old man now, don't kill me. He's one of the statistically one of the best switch defenders in the NBA. One of the best ISO defenders. He's been unbelievable. Yeah. So both him and Robert have enough of both to where

they can play that style, right? But I just wonder how many those guys exist. I think it's an amazing strategy if you can pull it off. But then also you have bigs like Stephen Adams. I've watched him a lot this year. But in the previous like three, four years before that,

he just looked like a shell of himself in the play. At the time the same, yeah. He didn't look the same. Like by the time the playoffs were all around. So I'm really interested how that's going to work with him and Jaron. If they're, you know, if Jaron's just going to end up playing a lot of center in the playoffs. but, you know, there's very few, you know, I think trying to get that many,

trying to get, trying to build a team like that, you just have to have special talent. Like, Evan Mobley is a special defensive talent. Like, Jaron Jackson has a lot of that. Plus, on offense, he's going to make you pay. That dude's a bucket, man. Yeah, right. The stepback three he hit tonight against Gobert. He can drain threes off screens and handoffs.

It's nuts. So not to segue completely, but I want your opinion, what do you think about the NBA becoming more and more of a legacy and lineage league, right? So you've got these guys like, Darren Jackson's dad was a wing in the NBA. So like he's probably been working on wing and guard skills his entire life. And he's got obviously has the genetics of, you know, a former NBA player on his side as well as like the teaching coming from them. And it's just seeming like you're seeing more and more of these players that have experience of parents that either were Division I basketball players or former NBA players. I've been watching the NBA forever. And it feels like we're at a time where you have more of that than you ever had before.

And I feel like it's going to become more and more of the case where you're going to see less of guys like Dame that, you know, they have no connection to any of that stuff. and more of the guys where you know you've got two curry boys and you've got um uh jaron jackson junior and uh isn't even chet homgren's uh dad had like a pretty successful career from what i like not in the NBA but like over overseas yeah overseas like jbarry smith junior his his dad played in the NBA uh jade and ivy his mom played in the WNBA now is the head coach at Notre Dame I believe

who am I missing here in the draft of here Walker Kessler like I think his dad played overseas his uncle played in the NBA I believe if I remember correctly so I mean there's an I'm probably missing one or two in the first

round so hand I think both of his parents played college basketball if I remember correctly out of Baylor like this is like a good amount Yeah, and then you're starting to see like daughters of NBA players marrying sons of NBA players. Is everybody just going to LeVar Ball route?

I don't even know if it's intentional. It's just that that's your community. That's your network. That's your family. You're in the NBA family. You're in the extended basketball family. Those are who you interact with. You're meeting other tall athletic people.

It's basketball. aristocracy, right? So like, that's kind of the thing that's going on. So it would be interesting to see how that, if that continues to develop, if all we have, we have a lot of second and third generation NBA players coming through. I wasn't, you know, like, old enough to remember Dale Curry in his prime years. But it is just really cool to know that these players are coming up. It is cool to follow even a guy who has a chance to become an NBA player. Like, the brawny james is of the world Kirk has posted videos of his son sometimes

Pagiaziochovich his son just had an amazing game against Brony pretty recently for the Compton magic and he's a bucket and Jamal Crawford you know I've been watching JJ recently I think he just hit a game his son JJ's in middle school

he's playing on the circuit now and he's he just hit a game winner and Jamal posted it so like oh wow Yeah, so the kids get the bug early. And you know, you see some of these grassroots programs. Like there's a program called Made Hoops, which basically the biggest middle school grassroots program out there. Shout out to my guide, Chad, that runs that.

But they have all, if you go to one of their events, all the teams are coached by former NBA players. Wow. So it's like how many teams? How many players have they have? Well, I think, you know, obviously, They see everyone. So I think they're expected to have about 30,000, 30 to 50,000 kids come through their programs this year. And they're just moving around.

Like, they'll go from, they'll have a West Coast championship or regional, like, event. And then they'll go to the Midwest. Then they'll go to the east, south. Like, they're just, look them up when you get a chance. But it's really cool. But you'll see on some of their posts online, you know, I think I just saw Ray Felton at one this weekend where he was coaching a team. And then the ball's coaching. Matt Barnes is coaching.

Barnes has his twin boys playing, right? So list goes on and on. Even a guy like obviously Will Conroy, he's not coaching AAU because he's coach in Washington, but his son is amazing. Like, you know, a cup of tea in the NBA, like, you know, journeyman overseas, all that stuff. His son is, I watch him on some of these highlights.

He's amazing. So, you know, the genetics thing and like lineage thing is really interesting and see how it's going to continue to play out. A couple more things to get through before we get you out of here, Nate. We did mention the drafts with Holmgren, Bancaro, Jabari Smith. We mentioned Mark Williams, another big Walker Kessler. There's a good amount of them in this year's draft class. But speaking specifically about those guys up top, what are your takeaways from what we saw in March Madness with those top three prospects, Smith, Holmgren, Vancaro?

What's the number one thing in your mind with what we did see? Jabari is interesting because finding a player of his size that can. shoot as well as he can already. 6.10. Yeah, I mean, it's rare to find someone like that. So your next step is, okay, does he have the coordination

and the drive and love of the game to develop other aspects of his game? If that guy gets an NBA level handle and he can shoot the way that he can shoot, how are you stopping him? There is no stopping someone like that. Not to mention that, even in that last game for Arbor and they lose.

And he has one of his worst shooting performances probably of his life. But he was still busting his ass on defense. Flying it out of nowhere to contest shots, block shots, rotating hard, communicating. You can see the urgency on his face, right? Like, you can feel it. Do you see him as one of those guys that you consider guard skills on both sides of the ball? Defense, yes, because of the perimeter versatility.

offensively not yet. Offensively, guard skills in the sense that you can run them off screens and handoff, but not guard skills in the sense that he can create. And that's ultimately

where Bencaro has the advantage over him and Holmgren because with Smith, like in my mock draft this week, I had Sacramento moving up to number one. I'm just doing exercise. It's changing up the order to do different scenarios.

And with the Kings, it's like, oh, you put Jabari Smith next to Sabonis that works in the front court as spacing, defensive versatility, next to a guy like Sabonis, who's

an offensive playmaking hub at the elbows and wings that works. It works with the Aaron Fox, downhill, speedy, athletic, pick and roll presents. That can work too. Pick and pop or even short roll, you know, dive to the rim with Jabari Smith or Sabonis. That can all work.

With Bencaro, I think it's a little harder to fit him in certain situations, but the upside, like you tweeted, you tweeted this out, you were baffled by, why are they not feeding their best offensive player with the ball every time down the stretch. Why is he not at least getting a touch?

And I'll tell you what, man. I love to watch college basketball for the fun and the drama and for scouting. I love to scout. I love to scout. That's awesome. But tactically, where were the touches for Bencaro down the stretch of that game? Every time, every time he should be touching the ball. It's just the hierarchy in college basketball is always interesting to watch.

I mean, you kind of, you mentioned it with Javari, like the guards, he played with this year. Like, there was no hierarchy there, right? And Ben Carroll, for the most part, that wasn't the case this year. But I'm thinking in a big, you know, in your biggest game of the year, you're going to look for the best player on the floor. She had 20 plus shots over and over again. But, you know, didn't happen.

But, you know, I think Ben Carrow's is, you know, will be interesting to see what he turns into because he has a lot of the same, some of the talent that Jason Tatum had coming out. But he just seems to be like a bigger and more aggressive going to the basket. Maybe a shot isn't going to be as fluid as Tatum was. But I don't think people thought Tatum had a shot like he ended up having in the NBA when he first came in. I think he was shooting the three-pointer crazy his rookie year. And I don't think scouts were thinking he was going to become that. So I'm interested in seeing that.

But the player that is the most like, you know, he's breaking your brain is definitely Chet Holmgren. Like you what can you can you can you can see the potential for him to become a lot of things I just don't ever I don't ever see him being a real score in the league like he's just going to be one of those guys that makes winning plays does everything bust his ass the entire game one of smartest players on the floor um but do you invest do you invest in do you use your number one pick or number two pick to get a player of that nature um can he be a better version of a bigger, a big man version of like Kirolenko, right? Like obviously he's not going to, I don't think he's going to come out there and guard perimeter players like, you know,

Keralenko was doing, but is he going to be that ultimate five by five guy and defensively, like, you know, come and help out and do a, and just gap fill, right? That's the question. I think because he's so skinny and he doesn't really play like a traditional brand of ball, and he can be passive at times that people just are like they want to automatic and you know let's be honest he's a white dude so people want to they they're american white dude has to be a bus it's it's jacked up the people's mindsets and i like that because i you know i don't think that way but that's that's i'm just trying to analyze him as a basketball player but i think the people's biases on like this guy here's the big tall skinny white dude yeah here's the he's the

Here it's the next Adam Morrison, right? He doesn't pass the face test. He went to Gonzaga, too. It's a very white school. Sad to say, but yeah, I think that's what he's up against. But I just see him, like, if he gets on the right team where he can be, like, doesn't have to be the first or second offensive player, but just fits in and does everything that the team needs,

you can be a phenomenal player. What's your opinion on him coming in the league? I mean, I think you nailed it. He's more in that category of, you know, Karolenko, Marcus Smart, Draymond Green, these kind of weirdo players that don't fit into any traditional category. And they need to be reviewed as such as an individual that doesn't fit in. And I think ultimately with Holmgren, more than anything else, the top of this year's draft, I can't stop thinking about fit.

Fit, fit, fit, fit, it's going to be everything. Yeah. It's even going to determine who I end up putting number one on my board. Like who, when we start hearing, oh, this team's picking here after the lottery, oh, this team's thinking this, this team's thinking that. If I hear about a guy that's going to end up in a crappy fit or an ideal fit, that's going to change my rankings because the way fit environment, situation, opportunity, your teammates, your system that you play in,

that all interacts so much with the success and failure of players, especially earlier in their career. So for Holmgren, man, like when it comes to fit, you're going to have to have him with another big, at least earlier in his career. Like we talked about with these two big lineups, you want to see home run in the situation, like Mowgli had next to Jared Allen.

Maybe Houston. That's intriguing. Next to Shengu, and he can take the interior stuff. Maybe Orlando, with some of the guys they have there. I'm not, even Indiana,

like, if they were to move up, but like, what do you think about that next to Miles Turner? That's a little iffy. Is there an affirmative defense? How about Portland, next to Nurkich?

Yeah, I don't see, personally, I don't see Portland ended up at Portland at this stage, in my opinion, because I think he's too much, he's got, they move up, it's more Javari-Smith, hollow-bank care. To me, that's the guy. Yeah, way more sense. Not to say that check can't be that guy eventually,

but I just don't, to me, in my opinion, and where they're at, like, and how they're trying to win now. I don't see them going down that route. in tonight's games, the Spurs, they have clinched a playing spot because they won, the Lakers lost. For Spurs fans, there seems to be a big split. A lot of Spurs fans are like, why are we trying to win games? We're screwing ourselves long term.

We're not going to have a chance on the lottery if we actually end up making the playoffs. And then you have a lot of fans like, hey, what are you talking about? We have to win two games. We still could have top 10 lottery odds. Right now they have the ninth best odds. We don't need a tank. We can still move up. We've seen teams move up from 7, 8, 11, the last couple of years in the draft lottery with a new flat nods.

The Blazers, they did a pro-level tanking job, 2 and 17 since the All-Star break. I am, Nate, I am so impressed with what the Blazers have done. They are being outscored by 19.8 points for 100 possession since the All-Star break. In terms of context here, the Lakers are minus 8, the Thunder or minus 8.5. the Blazers are outliers in terms of how bad they are, and I am very impressed by this tank job. With that said, the spurs, they don't tank. Yeah.

They push for the postseason. They're winning games. In the long run, is this the right choice here? I mean, I don't. Is this a draft good enough to tank? I guess is the question. You know, I never like to be one of those guys to say drafts are not good, because even two years ago, the Lamello draft,

people were, they were like crapping all over that, right? Like, who's the player in there? We don't know who, you know, well. It's Killian Hayes. Killing and Hays? See what he did the other night? Did you see what Killion did the other night, Nate? No, I did, sorry to say.

Oh, you weren't, you weren't watching. I was not watching. You were telling me, you weren't watching. I watched some Pistons games because I like Cade, but I was not. You were watching Detroit versus OKC? No chance. No chance, brother. Maybe earlier in the year I would have.

Killing in at 26 points, 8, 7 rebounds, 5 steals. Just throwing that out there. Anyway. Nice. But yeah, but at the end of the day, I think it's very easy to say a draft stinks before you get into it. But there's players in this draft. It was the kid from Arizona, the guard from Arizona.

Benedict Matharin. Man. Christian Coloco. Yeah, Matherin. Yeah, Matherin, man. I'm a fan of, man. He's got a chance. Like, I like him a lot.

But the point is, I think drafts, you got it. I think you nailed it on the head in terms of talking about fit being a real thing this year. But I like a lot of these guys. They just, you never know where players are going to go, right? Like with a little development. Like I said, like I mentioned with Jabari. Javari is the perfect example. Like you see what he has skill-wise defensively, the effort he puts in.

He's, you know, the son of a former, you know, high-level college player. And he's got a shot that you can't teach most bigs. And if he has a real chance to develop, like, a handle well enough to where he can get to the basket score and create for others, that's a fantastic player. And people are kind of just riding it off like, oh, yeah, it's like, whatever, you know. If his worst case scenario is Richard Lewis, like, that's a good player, that's a good player. Especially today's NBA. As I imagine Richard Lewis today.

If you copy and pasted him from his career and started it today, he'd be even better than he was. That's a really good player, but people just like the crap on these guys. They're terrible. They're talking about this draft. Like, it's the 2000 draft. I don't think so.

No. I think this drafts like a lot. of drafts, but like, this is a, again, even not just the top three, this is a fit draft. There's so many players that make sense for certain teams and don't make sense for other teams. I mean, it's just the way it is. Like Jeremy Sohan, I've mocked him two blocks in a row to Portland. You know, I'm not sure, like, if I like that.

But like, Sohan, because of the iffy jumper, maybe you're not putting him in a situation that desperately needs shooting. You might want to put him in a situation where they desperately need perimeter. defense and a little bit of playmaking and a little bit of an oddball player or variable, an X factor in there. Like for a guy like Johnny Davis, the iffy jump shot out of Wisconsin, he wins being 10 player the year. He can do everything but shoot.

Maybe if you're a team where you feel like we have a poor track record of developing shooters, we don't have a great developmental coach on staff. Maybe that team wants to pass on Johnny Davis. It's just, that's the way it is every. Johnny Davis would be like amazing in the 90s in like early, thousand. He'd be like, top three pick. He would just be posting up everyone, every single game.

His post game, dude, he better bring it back. I hope he brings it back for guards. I mean, that's that, you know, maybe he becomes that mid-range assassin in the NBA, you know, like a similar to Damar, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, I watch his post game. I'm like, man, that guy is like, he's a throwback, right? He is.

In that regard. But, you know, being a guard that doesn't shoot or has an iffy three ball in today's game is tough. So, but yeah, I'm with you 100% on, on fit. And, you know, you have to let a draft play out. So we'll see. I mean, even you look at the draft that had Zion and people were, you know, obviously Morant became the guy, but like Zion was supposed to be it.

Like the NBA was putting all their money and, and national TV games for New Orleans and everything else behind him. RJ is supposed to be, you know, they were hyping RJ a little bit. Some of those guys in that draft, that draft's kind of been, you know, whatever. So you don't know what you're going to get until the guys actually get in the league fit situation. In terms of, I'm going to say one thing.

I think teams kind of disregard at the stage. I'm happy for young guys that are able to get opportunities in a league. And I love that like so many young guys are coming in and getting a check. And, you know, two-way players and all those things. But the vets that are getting pushed out of the league and they're not necessarily guys that should be getting minutes, but you just need that presence on those teams. And I think so many young guys miss out on that.

Obviously, you have good player development coaches and all that, but they're looked at as a coach. You need someone in the locker room that's one of the fellows, one of the players on these rosters. And I see too many teams where they don't have that. And there's no wonder that you have slow development of some players. They're not learning how to be a pro because they don't have that bet that came in and told them like this is what you're supposed to do. This is how you act.

This is how you operate. Yeah, it's just random, but I think teams miss out on that a lot. I mean, and ultimately, like we'll see as the NBA expands at some point to 32 teams, if that creates more slots for those veteran presences or it's just more slots for more young guys. Yeah, here's young guy. And I get it, like take the young guys and see if you can develop a diamond in the rough, right? like bring them in and and figure it out. But I really think that every team's got to have that veteran presence to really bring them along. And so many of those teams miss out on that, you know. So, I mean, even look at what happened to what happened to Phoenix when they,

they bring in Chris Paul and they bring in J. Crowder. Obviously, they did well in the bubble to end the year. But I don't think that was going to carry over if they didn't bring those two guys in. like they just became like they unleashed the animal inside of them that you just like you're like it's like jay crowder in that room with mckell bridges and cam johnson in the wings there and chris paul with the back court with booker and then see see pain comes over like just that camaraderie that can develop with a veteran who's been there and has leadership skills and like legitimate leadership and those are guys that are still playing and

obviously still stars and you know and you know still stars and you know still stars and you know still and in j crowder's case but uh generally if you don't have that you got to at least have one of those guys that are that are there to help uh has players and yeah man has has i feel like how about a westbrook oh man you know i it's so hard to it's so hard to i i feel i'm critical westbrook but also feel bad for him right so it's a little of both it's a little of both because a player to come from where he was ranked and what he was looked at coming into the NBA to becoming what he's become, you got to commend him. He's squeezed every ounce of, like, achievement out of what he was in his career.

And you got to give your, you got to tip your captain. But the thing that sucks is you're just watching him. And you're like, this guy's never going to evolve. He's, you know, his career. It's like he's, he's Iverson two. 0.0 right now. That's kind of where he's headed in terms of if there was a way for him to change

his game up at all, become a better. Like if he was a outstanding cutter with LeBron James, he should just have been getting easy buckets all year long, but that's just not where it's at. Or even I watch this jump shot and I'm like, has anyone told him

you don't have to jump as high as you can on your jump shots? The answer is yes. They have over the years for sure. And it's just he's unwilling, unwilling to change his mechanics. Which is crazy because even recently with Dame, I was watching and watched his old synergy stuff from when he first came in the league. And we were noting his jump, his form, he's lifted up his shot, right?

Like he used to shoot more in front of his face. And he's worked on that from the time he came into his career with that lower release point to where it's at now, where he has a really good release point on his shot. So, you know, that's a player that was rookie of the year, hit a game winner in his, you know, a playoff clinching buzzer-beater in his second year. And his shot was still like that his first two years and he was continuously working to get better. That's the mentality you have to have as, you know, a player. I mean, you see it with all the great.

We talked about it with Yannis, didn't we? Just earlier? Yeah, we just. The mindset he has. And it's not even like, I think a lot of times people hate on players saying that they don't work or they, you know, like Westbrook, it's obviously works his ass off. It's just he's not like working on the things that he needs to work on. Right. So he probably shoots, puts up, you know, 200 shots a day or whatever it is in the off season. But he's, you know, doing, it's all the bad mechanic stuff instead of trying to like changing things around. It's a shame. I mean, when I think about, when I think about, my lasting memory of this Lakers team. It's just going to be unfulfilled potential. Because even with Russ,

it's just slight tweaks, a healthy AD, you know, healthy LeBron down the stretch. You know, if Kendrick Nunn had been able to play all season long, that still has that's a weird knee injury that's kept him sideline. It's just undefilled potential for the Lakers. And, you know,

we'll see what they end up doing in the off season. I'm sure I'll have a lot more Lakers talk in the coming weeks and months, despite them being eliminated from the playoffs. so the drama is not over yet. Braun still could play this next game and score 70 points to try to surpass Joelle Ambide to become the

scoring leader in the NBA. I don't know. At this point, does he do that? Does he really come back and try to do that? I wonder if that's that. I go full Devin Booker? Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know if they're eliminated and if that makes it. I don't think so. I, it also sucks. I think for LeBron has been on the microscule. to me, he's the Truman show of sports.

He's been out of the microscope for so long, and it's just so crazy that he's still, he has to be so calculated about everything that he does. Does he need to be? Does he have to be? So she just let it, let it loose. Just be the true LeBron. There is also that there's the, you know, he's been carrying that for so long.

It was a pressure of being LeBron. It's like, you know, it's almost like people that say they want Obama to still like come and be like, they want it to be out front, right? I would have loved Barry Obama. But what I'm saying is they And now that he's out of office He's like that burden's gone

Like that spotlight's off of me I don't have to like be out in front or do anything You know, I'll pick and choose things that I'm doing But I'm not like this thing that I'm going to continuously lead the Democratic Party Do all these things. LeBron as long as he plays is going to continuously be like he's in the old office Right. And that's how he's operated for 19 years.

He's going to continue to continue to be that way until he retires. But it's just crazy that there's like, oh, is LeBron going to come back? If he comes back, what does that say about him as a player that he came back to get his scoring title? What's wrong with getting his scoring championship?

Nothing. Nothing. In his 19th year, but everyone's going to, no matter what he does, he's going to be criticized for it. But he shouldn't care about it. Yeah.

He shouldn't care about it. He's LeBron James. But you and I, you and I, we are, where we haven't lived under that spotlight. So this is someone

that's really considering his legacy. Like, you know, I think about making sure family and things are taking care of, but I don't care of anyone knows about me in history ever. Like, I'm not worried about that at all.

Like, he is definitely concerned about, you know, what history will say about it. Well, in that case, let's say you're advising LeBron. Do you advise him to come back and go for the scoring record with a historic night, like scoring, beating Kobe's 81, something like that?

Hey, man. I've wanted to see Hill LeBron, like, you know, go full macho man, right? Like, just like, he's got, I want to see Hill LeBron where he's like, you know what, I'm sick of this. Like, I'm just going to do what I want and I don't care what you guys say about me and that's going to be the rest of my career. Yeah, I want to, getting the scoring title at 37 years old is important to me. I played hard this year. The team wasn't good enough. Sorry. I'm going to try to my scoring title. And if you're mad about it, so be it, right? So, yeah.

Just one last thing here, since you're talking wrestling here. Yeah. You tweeted out Pat McAfee, his performance for the WrestleMania this weekend. What a matchful Pat McAfee is. My goodness. I was shocked. I'm not a wrestling guy, but he looked like somebody

that's been doing it. He's a freak athlete. He's a freak athlete. Like, he's doing acrobatic. Like, I don't know if you can curse on here. or not, but yeah, he's been doing acrobatics all you want. Yeah, he's been doing acrobatic shit like, like,

like, um, the entire, he was doing acrobatic stuff that entire match. And I'm like, what the hell? Like, you're, this is amazing. And then he's,

he's still got that puncher flexibility. And he, and he's super charismatic. And you can tell, like, you can tell he loves football, grew up on football. And you can also tell he loves wrestling and grew up on wrestling. So it's fun to watch because he's,

he's just a mark out there that's enjoying to, enjoying the opportunity to be. able to like live out his dream right like he's at russomania or whatever so it was it's fun to watch i love guys like that he just he's always got just such a positive energy to him and i didn't even know who the hell pat mackafee was until this year honestly because i don't watch football dude i don't watch football like that like i grew up i grew up watching i grew up watching all sports and then like um you know as you get older and more responsibilities and whatever else i became oh basketball was

always my number one love and then just became way more focused on basketball. So I had no idea what was going on the NFL. I just saw this guy on, I started watching wrestling again, you know, during the pandemic and I see this guy on Smackdown. And I thought he was like just a random dude they hired. I had no idea that he was attached to football and everything else.

But yeah, he's a real cool, man. I like him. He's, he's amazing. Nate, so are you as well. This is a great conversation.

I love this. Yeah, I love it. And I know I've been ducking me for a while, but we, you know, I've just been busy trying to build the business. And, and I also, it's hard for me because I think I never want to slip up on one of these things and say, you know, like, say something about a guy I work with or a team or whatever else, and then that come back to me. So I'm always extra cautious on it, but I think I'm at the stage where I'm not going to ever put anyone in a bad position like that. But yeah, it's been, it's been fun to watch your rise, man like you're you're killing it out there man like uh it's it's it's it's uh it's always good to listen

to you and and uh and burning on your pod so glad i could be on here appreciate it man that means a lot just uh just trying to work hard trying to you know help my mom you know and trying to help myself out build a a bright future it's like you said we're not worried about legacy yeah trying about man i could have the pressure of lebron it's pretty nice Oh, man. I cannot imagine. I'm not the chosen one.

Oh, man. I couldn't imagine having that, like, people, you know, the amount of people like, I see a lot with some of the players that work. People come at them for everything. And that's just like a regular NBA guy that isn't. Younger and younger ages now, too. It's happening for kids. Oh, man.

You know, what I tell Dame all the time, or stop telling him, he's really tired of hearing about it. But the best thing that ever happened to him was that he was a late bloomer and, came under their radar and went to Weaver State, basically developed in anonymity, and got to be a regular college student. He was the star on campus, but it wasn't like they were on national TV.

It wasn't like he was highly recruited, all those things. Billions of Instagram followers and TikTok and all that. So when I first met him, the first thing he said was, I showed him my Twitter and he goes, man, you got to get me followers. You're about to have way more followers to me soon,

but it was just that was the level of fame. he added Weaver State like people didn't know where he was. And I think it just allows you to at least have some aspect of normalcy until you become a pro. And now you got, you know, some people are going to come at you. But, you know, some of these kids, they're chosen and picked at 14, 15 years old that they're supposed to be a pro. And they're already a target. And there's already people relying on them. That's a, you know, that's a heavy burden for some.

So, yeah. We're going to end the pod in this quick head question. Yeah. This one might get you in trouble. Who's a better rapper? Damian Lillard or Miles Bridges? Well, you know, the thing is, the thing in with the- Oh, it's not a clear answer?

No, no, no, no. I'm going to preface it this way because, like, I think that to me, Dame is a better rapper, but I also am an older guy. And, like, he likes the style of rap and wraps in the style that I like. Oh, yeah. I'm not into Detroit. Like that Detroit flow that everybody loves about Miles Bridges, like if you like that,

like, damn, he's dope. Like, I get it. So I just, that's not different genre. Like,

that's not what I'm listening to. So, you know, I think it's to each their own, right? I think, but the thing I do think is impressive is, um,

you know, that guys are able to come out here and do multiple things and and put themselves out there in ways that, you know, I, Just put it this way. There's a lot of NBA players that want to wrap, but they don't put their stuff out there because they're afraid of what people are going to think of them.

They do it as something that's done in anonymity, basically. But kudos to both Miles and dang. Hey, Nate, I appreciate you joining the Void today, man. This is fun. Appreciate you, my man. Take care. Thank you for listening to today's episode of The Void. That was Nate Jones.

You can follow him on Twitter at Jones on the NBA. That's on Twitter. That guy was fun. That was a great conversation. I really enjoyed talking with him. We hit a lot. I'll be back on Friday with another episode of the mismatch. And I'm sure by that point, the standings will change again.

We'll be a whole lot else to talk about. We didn't hit a lot of the Lakers and then missing the postseason tonight because I figure Friday show with Chris Brenner, we'll be talking more about that. Because at that point, we'll see if LeBron ends up going for the 70 plus points that he will need to potentially be the scoring leader in the NBA. I'm with Nate. Just go for it. LeBron. Let's have some fun at the end of the season. Anyway, thank you to Jesse Lopez for producing today's episode. And thank you to you again for listening. I hope you have a fun rest of your day. I'll be back on Friday. And then next week, we might do a Monday show for what it's worth of the mismatch.

We'll confirm that later in the week, but you might find us in your feet on Monday instead of Tuesday. Thanks again, have a good look.