The Mismatch - NBA Standings Check-in, Zion’s Comeback, DeRozan Trades, a Lakers Master Class, and a Tournament Recap

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

Verno and KOC give their final thoughts about the in-season tournament after the Lakers defeated the Pacers to claim the first ever NBA Cup (01:09). They discuss the Lakers’ dominant defense, what the Pacers lack, as well as ideas for future tournaments. The guys take a look at the standings and debate which teams could potentially fall and which teams could rise by the time the season ends (24:24). Despite an injury-filled roster, Luka Doncic showed why he’s amazing in a win over the Grizzlies (34:20). After being completely embarrassed by national media, the guys explain why they were excited to see Zion play the way he did in a win against the Timberwolves last night (41:18). Also, the latest trade news surrounding DeMar DeRozan (49:05). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout http://theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and join me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.Kee, A.K.K.A. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor. Kevin O'Clylam, Kevin O'Fier. Vernon! You're back in Memphis. I'm back in L.A. But it was fun recording with you in Vegas.

It was. It was fun to be in Las Vegas. Let's do a little wrap up on that. We were both out at the in-season tournament. I was there for the first games and then missed the finals, which was the Lakers and the Pacers. The Lakers ended up winning the in-season tournament. And I had an unbelievable transcendent game out of Anthony Davis, a big contribution from Austin Reeves. And obviously, LeBron James is, he is defying father time to say the,

least and is still one of the best players in the entire NBA. And certainly I think they sent a message that when the games matter deeply and they really want to win, that team has an extra notch that they can crank it up to. We saw them. That was a closer game probably than the final score would indicate. You know, it was a bucket game with, you know, about six minutes left. But they ended up winning by double digit. and of course they had killed the Pelicans in the game before that.

And I think it was a bit of a message that this is still a team that when we come around to the spring, you're going to want no part of as a potential playoff matchup. What were you left thinking about? Exactly that, Chris. I mean, first of all, 80, it was a masterclass game from him, offensively with the 39 points defensively as part of a linchpin in the Lakers defense with the Blitz. and the trapping against Tyrese Halliburton, the room protection, cleaning up penetration from the Pacers

when they did again inside. He was absolutely transcendent for the Lakers in that game. But overall, I thought the game plan entirely was perfectly executed by the Lakers in that game. Cam Reddish, pressuring full court against Halliburton, slowing down their offense. And sometimes it was Reddish. Sometimes it was collectively the team,

the way they were containing transition opportunities, you know, building a wall to take a Stan Van Gundy phrase against Halliburton when he was starting to get going, trying to push the pace. Just overall, the Lakers defense perfectly executed the plan to contain Tyresearch Halliburton, a guy that's been on an absolutely unbelievable run. And I think with the Lakers, they showed the formula for one of the things that they can do during the postseason. They can play different styles.

They have amazing personnel. And with them, like, they don't have some of the guys that have proven it during the postseason, like Caruso and KCP during their 2020 run to the finals. But there's those vibes with their defense as a team that could potentially make a deep run there. So I think if you're a Lakers fan that watched the tournament games, seeing the way they prepared in a playoff-like setting, it has to increase optimism for the team's odds of making a run. Yeah, I think that they can, you know, and we have seen,

the teams that play big and the teams that play small. And what a huge problem the teams that play big are for the teams that play small. For sure. Like Orlando, like the Lakers, like the team with the best record in the league in Minnesota. OKC, the younger team. Yeah. And they can, well, OKC doesn't, like, they don't rebound. Yeah, sure.

I guess a different type of way. I would put them in the smaller class. Well, how about, I guess maybe there's like the wider, heavier teams, and then there's the longer teams. Yeah, that's fair. In the longer category. But if you're plotting them all by like wingspin and weight, then sure, like they don't have the weight.

But these teams, like the ones that are the big ones, you're just going to have to out shoot them. And this was something that Indiana wasn't able to pull off because they are just going to pummel you on the backboards. You know, it's, it's, we shoot. we get the ball, you shoot, we get the ball. And it just makes it, your margin of error is so thin and you're really going to have to out shoot these teams

and punish them for being big. You've got to have somebody that can pull Anthony Davis away from the basket. You've got to have somebody that can pull Rudy Gaubert away from the basket. You've got to have somebody that can, because otherwise, if you're going to play half-court basketball against this team,

you know, it's going to be a, It's a hard bargain because you've got to just shoot the three so well against them. And I think it was a bit instructive. You're talking about how they guarded Halberton. You saw how many times this Reddish being a point of attack defender has worked out famously in some segments. And you saw when they set that screen for him and he's going to come around the screen, bam, trapped. I mean, they trapped him like 20-something times in that game. And I think that's instructing.

Like they were willingly moving 80 away from the basket, right? Like you were willing to trap him. Yeah, to trap him. And yet it didn't just completely destroy the Lakers defense. Because you're so long. Exactly. Like the trap. Like I watched.

And LeBron. And LeBron, as the help defender down low, when the screener of Miles Turner a lot of times had roll and Thurman, it was LeBron there to meet him. LeBron was fighting his butt off in that game. and like the activity, the intensity. He had some steals when Halliburton would throw to the roller. I thought every piece of the Lakers defense is perfect. So it's going to be very interesting to see because they're trapped,

their ability to get the ball out of the guy's hands because they're like six, nine, seven foot, and their arms are everywhere. Like, I see this happening. You see it sometimes with Yokic. I watched it last night with a small team in Memphis. try to do it against Luca. And if you're not big and you're not like your arms are everywhere, he's just going to stand over,

pass over you and pick you apart. Like you have to have, like that's one thing about the trap. It's fascinating because Luca is playing against the Lakers tonight. So I'll be interested to see, you know, he ain't got much going with him. So the idea is try to get the ball out of his hands as much as you can. and I bet they're going to employ some of that stuff that we saw against Halliburton against Luca. But their trap is, you know, a lot of teams try to do it to the best player on the other team.

Theirs is super effective because it is so hard to pass around. You can't just make the clear vision pass to the open shooter because those guys are so big. And it's the luxury of having Reddish being able to be long. And he's like embraced that role pretty well. as a point of attack defender. They look good. They look very, very good. And that Indiana team, you know,

you're going to have to hope you can either out shoot somebody or not play somebody with real size because they're deficient in that area. Well, and I think with Indiana, we talked about it on the podcast. We recorded in Vegas where we said, why didn't the bucks, you know, force it inside more often? The Lakers, they did use their size, their advantage. over the Pacers. And I felt with Indiana, they clearly need more size across the board.

They need more size of the wing position with Aaron Neesmith, who is much as I like him and as as good as I thought Neesmith was throughout the entire tournament. He's only 6'5 and he's your guy defending Jason Tatum, Yon to the Coompo, LeBron James. He's just too small for that role. And then in the front court with Miles Turner. Turner's good, but he's never been the toughest interior guy, the toughest rebounder. They need to get bigger. And also, I think the fact that the Pacers didn't have a great counter against that Lakers blitz the trap in the pick and roll against Hallibor, it does show how much they

need another secondary ball hammer. And you would hope Benedict Mathron can be the guy who develops into that over the course of time. But he's still only in the second year, even though he's had some good moments, including last night, including in Saturday, he was good. He's still super, super inconsistent and hasn't proven he can be that guy yet. So I think- Well, do you remember it was Nemhard last year that was a problem against the Lakers?

But, I mean, he's hurt. And also he's like six-two. He's still smaller. So I think that's part of the reason why you're hearing Indiana about a team for like a Pascal Seaccom because then he's a bigger guy. He's long and he can handle the ball. So I think, you know, Annie can play with Halliburton. You can do two-man game stuff with Halliburton and Siakum.

So I think that's why you're going to see Indiana, you know, flirting for another trade because they traded for Halliburton. They traded for the guy. Now they're going to have to make another trade to find the other guy. It was super fascinating to see how this in-season tournament played out. And I think both of us would consider it a great success for the Maiden Voyage. One of the things I loved also was the attention that they got on Indiana, not only Halliburton, who is on his way to superstardom, but also like even just seeing all those press conferences and everything and hearing those guys talk like that, you know, personalities that you don't normally see get some kind of a big stage. You saw Miles Turner talking about out like, you know, we're not really, I think it was him, talking about like they're talking about like their.

not, we're not really Hollywood and we're just like, we embody Indiana, we just grab our lunch pails and go to work, whatever. And then Halliburton jokes, you know, you're wearing like sunglasses and no shirt underneath your jacket, you know. And then you have Miles Turner correcting one of the media members asking him about playing with Legos. And he said, I do not play. I do not play with Legos. I build Legos. Right. And it's like, these are. things you get to see a side of the personalities of some of these players. And I do think that that's why I think for a lot of teams, you know, we talked about how we were happy that the players cared about this this year. I think not only the money, I think the players also saw what a big

deal was made out of this thing. And what a big stage everybody got put on, that they were like center stage of the NBA universe. And I think that encourages players as well and teams as well going forward to really want to be a part of that. You know what I mean? I think they looked at it and go like, I want to do that next year, right? I want to be the ones that are on the podium that are on all these viral videos from a media availability and on and so I think that was, I think that was good that we had a small market team that people don't know that much about. And we learned a lot about them because we always see LeBron at a podium and Janus at a podium and Tatum at a podium, right?

Like, we started to learn a little bit more about one of the good stories in the league. And also, I think if I'm a player, I watch that all play out and thought, man, like, maybe those first couple of in-season tournament games that we didn't really understand what was going on, whatever. Now there's a clear vision of what happens when you do well in that thing. and I think players are going to want to win it even more next year. I do too. I do too.

I think for year one, the ratings aren't as high as I think the league would have hoped for. Ideally, it isn't like an instant hit, but it was an instant hit with the core audience. From an anecdotal perspective, I thought it was interesting talking to, you know, peer media members about say, hey, what do you think? And the amount of times I heard somebody say, well, I was skeptical. about the whole thing, but after watching the games the past month, especially this week, I really like it. So I think that's a perspective shared by, you know, friends who are, you know, fans, not media, that I've heard from, like, a lot of different people that they like it now and

they get it now. So for the, I think that's where it's as a success in year one. Somebody, I had this in my article, like my Monday winners and losers things in my ring right. Like somebody said to me over the weekend, I think I had talked to them Thursday before. the games on Thursday, I was like, hey, like, it seems like ratings aren't that different for the knockout round games compared to, you know, regular, regular season games. And the person said to me, they're like, yeah, but like, where, the way we're thinking about it is this sets a baseline.

It's about year over year, how does how does interest increase with the tournament games? So, obviously, you want it to be a hit in year one, but seeing an increase year to year, I think that's what's going to be interesting. And I think that maybe fan interest could reflect player understanding that you're talking about. Now that everybody gets it, depending on the tweaks they make next year, if it's even more consumable, more understandable, maybe this thing gets even bigger next year. Personally, what I would like to see, Chris, is I think they should just carve out like

a two-week length of the season where every game is a group stage game, rather than going like just Tuesdays and Fridays over the full month of November are, you know, the group play games like they did this year. I think you should make it consistent over a certain stretch of the season. To me, that would make it feel more like an aside from the season, if that makes sense,

kind of more of something on a national stage. Because I think this year, I didn't, I personally didn't feel the buildup to the finale on Saturday. It felt very sudden. It was like Monday and Tuesday was the best of eight. Thursday was the final four. And then Saturday was the final finale. It was like over the course of six days.

I think if you have the two weeks straight of group play games and then you have the knockout rounds over like a three week period of the season, that would make it feel so much more rewarding when you get to that final matchup. So I know that. Rather than kind of interspaced with other games. quote, don't matter as much. Bingo. And I think the league is that they are, have everything's on the table. When the games are played, when the tournament happens, how groups are determined. You know, this year we have six groups of five teams each.

Next year, those six groups of five teams could just be the divisions rather than, you know, based off last year's standings. Next year it could be, you know, five groups of six teams like Bill Simmons is pitching. Like he had a tweet earlier this week I had to talk about on his podcast talking about having that group size and then you have three wild cards you could go without conferences

they're gonna consider changing the point differential tiebreaker again I know Bill mentioned having quarters one is the first tiebreaker instead which I'm intrigued by but the league is going to consider some of these tweaks over the next year to optimize it even more but I think for year one it's without a doubt a big success

and I would expect it to even build more and during year two next year. And I'm excited about that, man. I'm very glad. And I'm glad the Lakers are going to hang like some little, you know, banner. It's not going to be a championship banner. But I do think this thing is going to matter over the course of time. I know I've always been the person like, like, yeah, like, let's make changes and let's, you know, spice up the season calendar. But I really believe this thing year to year.

It's going to grow with importance. And it's going to become something that fans care about winning. that players care about winning even besides the money because who doesn't like single elimination? This week was fun. That's right. And I am pro as I talked about even before this thing started, more single elimination. If there was a way for you to advance out of your group with a knockout game. I like all of the knockout games, right?

The more knockout games, the better. Yes. And I will say I'm not really, I would not be very concerned about the ratings thing. Look, getting people to care about basketball at the end of November and December is a tough gig anyway. The question is, do they care more? And can you in the future build on that? Because this is why even that year that the, you know, the season didn't even start until Christmas. It felt like, oh, they're actually starting at a time that people start to really tune into this stuff and start to care, right?

Like you, we've even seen it during eight seasons of this podcast, Kevin, right? These first couple of months will be one thing. And then we will get to when the calendar turns and post Christmas and it starts to pick up. And then it really goes flying off the meter from the trade deadline on. You know what I mean? There's a lot of people that really from February that trade deadline all-star area on to the end of the season, that's when they are locked in.

It is what's going on. The only other thing going is that is March Madness, you know, during the weekends. And so anytime you are going to try to, in the fall, winter, get people to care a lot and tune in and expect to have really good ratings

before Christmas, I think is you're going to be pushing a boulder uphill. And so I think you just keep pushing it. It's better than what we, had before. So I wouldn't I wouldn't be worried about it.

And I'd say, let it build. And hopefully you come to a time where people will care about basketball in November and December. I think what you're saying,

though, like touches on, it's why I feel the season should start today. It should start in the middle of December. Right. And whether you...

Go further in the summer. Yeah. Or maybe you don't. Maybe you trim to a 58 game regular season schedule or something in the 60s. That's a not starter for them though. I know.

They're probably not going to change the amount of games. But if you did start today, you could get to about 29 games in early February. There will be about another 29 or so games by that point. And if you have the tournament after the Super Bowl before March Madness, exactly at the time of year you're talking about where interest starts to tick up in the league. To me, that's the ideal timing for this in-season tournament.

After the Super Bowl, before March Madness, in the middle of February, that is the prime time spot in the calendar that could be big for the NBA and that could just allow you to just own it. You could own that month. There's nothing else at that point after the Super Bowl that is competing with you

with this really cool, really awesome idea for a single elimination tournament. And plus it leads into March Maddust. It just becomes basketball, NBA in February, NCAA in March, back-to-back months with single elimination tournaments. To me, like, I think the NBA, I know they're not going to change from 82 games anytime soon,

but I still can't help but feel that that's the best timing for. It's too late in the season. if you stick to October to April, but if you move to November to April, November to May, like whatever the shift is, to me, February is the absolute best time. And plus during the NFL playoffs, if you're doing the group stage games in January, you can own the middle of the week. With the NFL having Saturdays and Sundays, you could be Monday, Wednesday, Friday, or Tuesday, Thursday, whatever the idea is during the week.

To me, that timing makes sense. and avoiding the NFL. Like this year, they go against Monday night football and against Thursday night football. Like the scheduling was kind of weird. Like a 2 p.m. game locally between the Bucks and the Pacers on Thursday. That was strange. Also, there's no, we were in the arena.

There's no juice. No, no juice in the arena for that first game. No. No. It was like a, you know, oh yeah, we're in Vegas. You know, we're going to hang out here. Let's go see a basketball game. Yeah, and I think, of course, they're like hardcore NBA fans there.

Like, there are probably a lot of people who are very online. who go to those games. Not many. Not many. The second game felt like basketball fans. It was truly like JV and varsity in terms of the energy and the crowd. But does then also speak to how important is the crowd for having the Lakers there? That's right. One of the most well-traveled fan bases in the entire league.

Well, also a national, I think any that has a national fan base, right? The Nicks have a national fan base. The Lakers have a national fan base. the Lakers have a nationals fan base, right? Like any of these teams that have fans in, you can't go to a city in America and not find fans of those teams. Absolutely.

Right. Every road game, like if it's a Lakers road game, you'll see a LeBron jersey or a Kobe jersey or whatever it is. Right. So I think that's part of it there. And the league has something. They have something.

And I'm very glad it's been almost 10 years since Adam Silver first, you know, mentioned this in 2014. is something that they wanted to do. The fact we're here is pretty cool, and I look forward to seeing the way they build it on top of it, because they get something. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandul,

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First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issue that's non-drable bonus bets that expire seven days after a seat. See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. So we are now a little over a quarter of a way through the season. And I thought it was instructive for us to go back. So we can look at the standings as they stand today. And I'm not going to go back many years.

We'll just go back straight to last year as a point of reference to see what was going on on December 12, 2022. And we obviously talk about these teams twice a week and things change so rapidly. And sometimes you forget what things looked like when we were doing this show just, a year ago. In the Eastern Conference, as of today, the standings last year were Boston, Milwaukee, three was Cleveland, four was Brooklyn, five was Philadelphia, six was New York, seven was Atlanta, eight was the Pacers, and then on the outside was Toronto and Miami and the Bulls. Okay. So those were the teams. Now, we know the team that ended up representing the Easter conference in the finals last year was in ninth place this time one year ago.

And they stayed in the plane. And they almost lost the entire way. The biggest dropper from this point, I was obviously Brooklyn. I mean, Brooklyn was 17 to 12 at that point. At that point, We know what happened with them, but they were 17 and 12 at this point. They were a home court advantage team, December 12th, 2022. That's crazy to think about that that was their record. In the Western Conference, we had the Pelicans 1, the Grizzlies 2, Nuggets 3, sons 4, Kings 5, Blazers 6, Clippers 7, clippers 7, gold. in state eight, and then nine and ten were the Mavericks and the jazz, followed by Minnesota,

and then at 11 and 15, the Los Angeles Lakers, this time last year. And even the Thunder were 11 and 16, and they ended up having, you know, very good season for where they are in their progression. So anyways, you saw a lot of teams, obviously, the Pelicans had all kinds of of injuries that were in first place at that point, and they fell back greatly. Portland, I mean, went from 15 and 12 at this point last year to a team that was selecting third in the NBA draft and ended up tanking out the rest of the way. And then we know that the Lakers moved up, Minnesota moved up, Utah moved down. And so we saw some of the big, you know, if we just look last year as a point of reference,

there's inevitably going to be teams that are right now in the standings that drop down from where they are right now. And there'll be teams that move up. So if you were to take a look at the NBA standings right now and the playoff race, I'll just give you the top 10. East, Boston 1, Orlando 2, Milwaukee 3, Philadelphia 4, Indiana 5, New York 6, Cleveland 7, Miami 8, Brooklyn 9, Atlanta, 10. And in the West, Minnesota 1, Oklahoma City 2, Dallas 3, Denver 4, Sacramento, 5, Lakers 6, Houston 7, Clippers 8, Phoenix 9, New Orleans 10. All right.

Of those, and if you want to choose anybody that's below them, obviously you've got Golden State, Utah, Memphis as the next three in the west. You have Toronto, Chicago, Charlotte, as the next three in the east. When you look at the standings right now, and we think about the way they looked in 2022, who do you think is going to move up? Who do you think is going to move down? I think the easy answer in each conference is my. Miami at 8 currently at 13 and 10, and then Phoenix at 9 in the standings at 12 and 10.

The Sons, they have not played a single minute with Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and Bradley Beale the season. Beal returns on Tuesday night. And with the heat, you're picking a veteran team that has been just up and down so far this year. But you'd be betting on them moving ahead of like the Knicks who are now without Mitchell Robinson, and the calves who have been very inconsistent, a younger team like the Pacers, maybe the Magic slides slightly. So I think those are the two kind of safer bets

to move way up in the standings. But I don't see, I think Orlando's for real. I'm a big believer in their defense, as we've talked about over the course of this season so far, and of Paulo Bancaro's development, and Franz Wagner, they have just so many good players.

I don't think they're going to fall off a cliff necessarily in the same way that I don't. don't think Oklahoma City or Minnesota is going to fall off. So I think I think these teams are- Forget Cliff, but do you believe in those young teams as teams that can have, you know, home court advantage teams? Do you think that they are, that this is, you know, we're 23, 22 games in in some cases.

Those teams are in second, respectively, Orlando and Oklahoma City, two teams that haven't done this before. Yeah. You believe in them holding on to top four spots? Sure. I mean, I think with the standings so far this season, I mean, like you look at last year in the West, the difference between the Kings at the three-seed

and the Lakers at the seven-seed was five games. It wasn't a big dramatic difference between having the three-seed and being in the playing. So it was a big difference in the Eastern Conference last year. there was like a 13 game difference between the three seed and the seven seed. So I think I think with the standings, they're kind of flat. Like there's a lot of parity in the league and it might be a two or three game difference. It could be 46 wins versus 43 wins.

So like that I just believe in those teams to be, I guess, above 500 if that makes any sense. You know, that's cratering if they fall out completely. I mean like, you know, Orlando right now. is nine games above 500 and Oklahoma City is eight games above 500. I'm just talking about do you think that they are a team that we're going to look up and could possibly hold on to home court advantage? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying like it could be like yes because it could be like two, three,

four games of separation, but between home court advantage as a two, three, or four, and then being a five, six, seven, eight. Like, it was just, the standings could be so flattened that it doesn't make that much of a difference. So, yeah, so, yeah, I'd be shocked if they were home court advantage. O'K.C. or Orlando? Correct. But why? Like, I think with Oklahoma City, they have an all-NBA guy and Shay Gildes-Alexander.

They have a ton of talent across their roster, great role players. Chet Holmgren looks like the rookie of the year. They have the number five defensive rating in all of basketball. What is it about O'KC aside from youth that would make you feel that way? And same thing with Orlando. They have the number three defensive rating in the league right now. Paulo Bancaro looks significantly improved. He improved on his biggest weakness from last year with his jumper.

Franz Wagner continues to get better. They are loaded with versatile defensive players who are also smart decision makers on offense. I think Orlando, the argument against them is a bit stronger because they don't have a Shaggieldis Alexander level talent. They don't have a top five to ten player caliber talent in the league. But Bencaro can tap into that on some nights, right? I think Franz Wagner can tap into being a top 20 guy on some nights. So I think with Orlando, the arguments are a little stronger against them.

But I don't know. Both those teams are just really, really good, man. They're really, really good. And OKC goes back to last season with, they mentioned. and they got up to a little bit of a slower start. They end strong. Orlando ended strong last season. So it's not like this is just a 25-ish game sample. It does go back to last year with them ticking up, trending up at the end of the year.

Yeah, I think it's just the fact that it's an 82 game season. And, you know, they both had, you know, I know Orlando actually, you could make the argument because of the loss of faults and a loss of Carter, that they would be even more, the more. Oklahoma City's two years. running on really, really good health as well, Kevin, right? And I just think that, like, as that season goes on, there will inevitably be stretches where all of these teams struggle. And I think you've seen some of the teams that are behind them that I think are going to move up and play

it up, maybe even a higher level than they have so far. So it's not necessarily a demerit on Oklahoma City or Orlando for that matter. It's really about the teams that are behind them and what you think they're going to be able to do. Right? Because you could still play at a good level, but if those teams, is this, right, it's very hard to replicate 15 and 7, 15 and 7 15.

Right? Like, I mean, that's what they've done. And so do I think that that is the level that they are, or do I think they've played a little bit above their level? And my argument would be they have played a little bit above their level, and there are teams behind them that have not played to their level yet. That's all. Yeah. But I do think they're both great stories for sure.

And it might only be a two, three, four game difference between those records. Yeah. And I also think, look, not only Phoenix, the team right behind them, New Orleans. New Orleans, you know, now that they've got their guys back, they should be able to move up. They should be able to move up from where they are. Well, especially if Zion plays like he did last night. Yeah, we're going to get. And look, clearly somebody's got to fall out because Memphis is going to get in there after.

I mean, they only got three more games without John Moran. And then it's on. And then it's on. Okay. Let's get to get to. I actually did see them get another loss last night, but I want to talk about seeing Luca. Boy, Kevin. I have seen him many times in person.

He is an absolute marvel. to watch. He's one of those guys that, and LeBron does this, Yokic does this, that you feel like when they are engaged that you are just, you're playing the game how they want to play the game.

They truly control a basketball game. And watching him last night, they didn't have Josh Green, they didn't have Kyrie Irving, they didn't have Grant Williams, they didn't have, they were down a bunch of guys last night. It's, I mean,

Tim Hardaway Jr. I mean, he had short roster last night. He was unbelievable. Unbelievable. And I know his shooting percentage wasn't like through the roof, but it was like watching him. It reminds me of watching him like when we get to international play. And you don't know one other dude on the Slovenia team.

And it's like, it doesn't even matter. It could be, you could throw him with four guys. And he's just so superb that you could really. throw him. And last night, that was one of the more impressive ones I've seen because it's like, dude, they threw it, Jaden Hardy in there. Obviously, lively was great. But I mean, Luca right now, I feel like is it his absolute peak of powers. He's been awesome since he came back from the, you know, having the child. And getting to see him in person. He is one that I encourage any NBA fan to go check out in person. His antics.

are hilarious. You know, he certainly plays the game with a lot of personality. The antics at the end of the, what was it? Into the half, into the third quarter. The cry baby thing? Yeah, that was great. So funny. But man, you can throw that dude with four anybody's.

Now, I think you'll probably have an uphill climb against the Lakers with four anybody's. But whether it's Sylvanio or whether it was last night be watching him with that Mavericks team. I'm like, damn, bro. It's like him. And as long as they got him, they got a chance because you can't speed him up. You're just, you're playing the way he wants to play. Pretty spectacular. It makes me really happy seeing Dante X him out there. Dude, let me tell you something. He is so much better than he has ever been. And if you watch, like anybody could go back and, you know, you can click on field goals made on, uh,

NBA and you can see all his makes. X them last night. You know what? I noticed about him that I appreciated. So they obviously whip it around the perimeter a lot and everybody is now programmed to close out on shooters. And what happens is you get the close out. Guys put it on the floor. They usually dribble once or twice. They drive with intention of kickout. Right. That's what they're doing. They're driving so that they could throw it back out. Dante Exum drove and drove all the way to the basket and either made a layup or a dunk. And it was like something I was watching from the 90s or something because I was like, this is so refreshing.

Here's a guy that actually drives to an open lane and actually takes advantage of said open lane. Everybody is now programmed to drive it and then throw it back out, even when they have an open layup. He just took the open layup or the open dug over and over, and he had some steals. He ripped Derek Rose at one point at the top of the key. I was like, damn, man, this is by far the best I've ever seen Dante Exum. And he's had some really big games recently. Yeah, and I think with Exum, like over the summer with Beyond the Arc, when we did one of our offseason shows in July I had on a guest, DeNantas, your bonus. He's like a great analyst from basket news.com.

He's a Lithuanian covers the NBA overseas. And he talked to me about Exum because we went through some of the international guys like Vazankov going to the Kings, Mietch, going to OKC. And then Exum, you know, returning to the NBA after some two really successful seasons overseas and talked about the improvement of his jump shot, the improvement of his health. And I think with Exum, you're seeing him return to Dallas. And even though he's not playing a lot, he's been really effective. in his minutes with opportunities provided enough. I do wonder. Well, he has recently and all year he's been pretty good, Chris.

I just wonder if like the uptick of minutes this past week. I wonder if he's proving like with the way he handles the ball, he's limiting turnovers, he's hitting shots. If he's showing that he actually deserves more minutes than he was receiving earlier in the season because he was great the last two seasons overseas. and it's carrying over now. So I just wonder if, you know, Jason Kidd is going to have to,

like if he's been so good, you can't help but give him more minutes. Because to me he has been. I don't think he's going to have to, I don't think he has a choice to make because of Kyrie's injury. Of course. It sounds like Kyrie's going to be out for some time. So X-M's minutes are going to be there.

And obviously, that's what I'm saying, like, you're going to be playing XM more. But even when Kyrie returns, if XM continues playing like this, yeah, like how do you not play?

am 25 plus minutes a game. Yep. Next thing, a couple happenings just from last night's game that are last night's slate that are worth mentioning. So Zion Williamson, he was a victim of our jokes and everybody else's jokes. And God bless, Stephen A. Smith just pummeled the guy yesterday on TV. You know, not only was he talking about how he had a belly and about how, you know, he's 15 years younger than LeBron, but is somehow in way worse shape.

And then he said, I've got sources in New Orleans that say the chefs all love him and he'll eat the whole table. And I was like, God, I mean, it was just a character assassination. And then Zion comes out and like is bodying everybody. He's the go-to guy and just an unbelievable response. I, you know, it got to the point where, look, I like to get my jokes off just like everybody else. but I also like to see a redemption that after the pummeling that he took by that disastrous in-season tournament performance

and the passiveness slash laziness against the Lakers, I thought a hell of a response against a team that had only lost four games coming in. I know they were without Anthony Edwards, but Zion Williamson didn't care that they had towns. He didn't care they had Gobert. That Joker is going to the basket. He has got the funniest shot chart from last night because it is just put the ball on the deck.

I'm going to the basket to hell with you. And he turned up last night, had a huge, huge night. And so after he had gotten dragged publicly quite a bit, that was his response. And I was pretty impressed. You know, I went back and look, Kevin. Like, you remember, I remember a show we did years ago where I think it was his rookie year or second year where it must have been his second year um he like remember when he got that rebound and like put his shoulder down and gobert like flew into the third row when he was playing

for utah and i was like oh my god this is when gobert was like defensive player of the year rudy gobert and i was like this guy is it's like a superhero or something like he's just sending seven footers into the stands um he's had a lot of big games he's had a lot of big games games against Gobeyer. And again, because he did it, because I, I went back and looked and I was like, didn't he do this last year? And before he got hurt, he had a 43 against Utah, or I'm sorry, Minnesota. And then he said, and he has big games against Utah before.

He just bully balls, bully balls. And I give him credit, man. The guy got pummeled in the media and, and he was a victim of all manner of jokes. But that was a hell of a response last night. And every once or while you see, like, he's still got it in him to be that guy. It's just, can you do it? You know, it's an 82 game season, right? Not a one.

It's precisely that, Chris. Yeah. I mean, we know the heights he can reach, the 36 points last night. He's unbelievably scoring with ease at the rim. It doesn't matter that, you know, he's going left. He's still going to get there because he's still quick off the dribble. he's still so strong. Like he's very hard to stop and he has great touch around the basket.

Like some of the layups he hit last night, like the layout package for a guy his size, the touch is freakish. Like he had the one between Towns and Gobert like towns was defending him. He plows through him, Gobert over and help and he like goes high off the glass. English touch.

It was crazy. Like there's so few players that have that combination to do that. The thing is, can he sustain it? can he sustain this approach to the game and this mindset after he clearly heard the criticism, how could you not hear the criticism? You come back motivated wanting to prove yourself. Well, how can you do that over the course of time?

And I thought what he said during his post-game presser that stuck out to me was, you know, he's asked about the criticism. He's like, well, if it comes from a place of them wanting to see me be better, then I appreciate it. and I do think most of the criticism does come from a place of wanting to see him reach his potential and understanding who he is particularly from Charles Barkley with him saying I was in your spot before. I was overweight. I had Moses Malone telling me that I was fat and lazy and then I turned my career around.

I do think most of it comes from that place like that. I think with Zion, if he can figure it out, as again, as Barkley said, the Pelicans will become a team that nobody wants to play because they have all the other pieces but they need their star to be a star. All right, let me ask you this. Should they treat him more like a star in the sense of running the team revolves around him?

He is the best player and he's the guy that every night should be getting 20-something shot attempts. Or can you not trust him? I mean, there's a lot of guys on that team that deserve 20 shots. One of the issues with Zion. I know, but there has to be a pecking order.

Yeah, but one of the issues with Zion. on is he is he doesn't have a diverse offensive skill set like he is still very much go left I'm at the rim he doesn't have a mid-range game he doesn't have a spot-up three-point jumper so people don't stop it I mean you guys shoots like 70% I know you know you know I mean if you if Rudy Gobert can't stop it then who can shut up Charlie geez Shut that dog up, Chris. I'm trying to. He didn't like my Zion.

All right. Let's get to some other happenings that took place last night. A guy that you have talked about before that you're a big fan of, big breakout for Julian Strother. Denver gets another win. He hits like eight threes last night. It is so funny to go back. I watched him back this morning.

And the Atlanta announcer Bob Rathburn, him and Dominique Wilkins, they were to the ones. one's on the call on it, and they were like, whoa, this guy is hot. You know what I mean? Like every time he touched a ball, I mean, I think he hit like seven in a row or something crazy. But Strother, he also had five steals. Yeah.

In the game. Active help defense, especially on some, you know, Tray Young passes in the interiors, jumping passing lanes. It was a big, big performance. Your boy, Calvin Booth might have found another one. I think he did. Yeah. I think he did.

I mean, with Strother. We kind of saw this last year with Christian Brown with Michael Malone. He gave him minutes over the course of the season, but he never really broke out until after Bone Thailand was traded at the deadline. So with Strother, he's been getting some minutes here and there, and he hasn't necessarily popped yet, but he's been okay with the opportunities provided. But I think games like last night, they continue the flashes that he showed at Summer League during the preseason and showed. that what he can do with a full a full of minutes workload 28 minutes last night. So I think with

Strother with the shooting ability, the size, the defensive activity, he feels like somebody who I think by the end of the year we'll be looking up and he is going to be a fixture in the Nuggets, you know, eight-man rotation come playoff time. I'd kind of be surprised if he's not, to be honest with you. I just think his skill set is perfect

to play with Yokic, play with Murray, and fits their needs at that position next to Christian Brown is one of the young wings on that team. All right. Last thing before we get out of here, what's this DeRosen news you want to tell me? I mean, so there was the report this week that if they don't reach a contract extension, and they are very far apart for a contract extension, that his preference is to be traded to the Knicks or the heat.

So that's the latest on DeRosen that he could be on the move by the end of the season. Which do you like better for him? and for the team. I mean, I think for both those teams, the Miami more so, he's an upgrade over Kyle Lowry, the Knicks back court, like if you have De Rosen,

Ann Brunson, and R.J. Barrett, I think you're a little small. So I do prefer the heat fit. But I was going through it, and like it's, like you look at New York and Miami, they do make sense for DeRosen.

I can see why he would want either of those teams. But like, If you go through team by team across the league, I was thinking about like the Lakers off the top of my head, but would you really want to trade DeLo, who's like a 40% guy from three? He's more of a playmaker than DeRosen is. Yeah, you would, but like you're already lacking shooting.

Do you want to downgrade there? It's the same thing with like, say Dallas. Like in a vacuum going from Tim Hardaway Jr. to DeVar de Rosen is an upgrade. but Hardaway shoots almost 10-3s a game at almost 40%. Like does he downgrade your half-court offense when the ball's going to be in Lucas' hands or on LeBron's hand? So I think the other teams that would make sense to me,

you know, off the top of my head, I was thinking Dallas, I was thinking L.A., but the teams that make sense, the Sixers, they could use more backcourt scoring alongside Tyrese Maxie. I was thinking about the Warriors get some more scoring instead of Chris Paul. Chris Paul's not scoring. more of a passer at this point.

And then maybe like teams that... The Sixers would be perfect. Well, well, then what... It would. Because you could give up a bunch of expirings, right? Yes. Because you got to imagine if they're moving to Rosen, then it's just going to be a...

It's going to be a sell-off. Well, DeRosin isn't expiring as well. So that's part of this. No, no, no, but I'm saying if you are, if you're the Bulls and you're moving him, then you're trying to get rebuild pieces, right? So you're trying to get picked. and dropped off and cap space, right?

And I think that could also be a team like, say, Brooklyn, a team that like maybe you trade, maybe you trade Ben Simmons and you get back and expiring into Rosen where it's not even about the player as much as getting off a guy who has an extra year left on his deal, so then you have more cap flexibility this off season. And then with Chicago, maybe they say, you know what, okay, we'll be the team to take a chance on Ben Simmons.

So I just don't, the point in, is like I just don't think there's I don't think there's that many DeRosen teams there's not many teams that make a lot of sense for him there will be more after last night I know they lost but didn't that Joker have 41 he's playing like he wants to get

good value in a trade somewhere he can still get a bucket for you bad I know he can't I think there'll be a bigger market than you think I don't know man on an expiring a guy that's a bucket like that on an expiring it falls off

I know. And like, that's what I just, but you get what I'm saying, though, when it comes to like, just say Dallas, right? Like, you would have to give up Tim Hardaway Jr. in the trade. And I know Dorson's better than Hardaway, but is he better for Dallas's needs? With Hardaway being a guy who takes almost 10 threes a game and shoots him at 38% this year, is he better for what they need? I don't know. That's where I have questions about some of those teams. The Lakers, I think, that, He's a better fit. I think he is an upgrade from D-Lo, but I can see why they would rather go in a different direction. I think there's a lot of teams that look at it and go like, all right, it's worth the chance. You think Dallas is when the title is they're currently constructed?

Come on. Here's the one thing I'd say about, about Deroza this year when it comes to that three-pointer. He is shooting a career high, 2.7 three-point attempts per game, and he's hitting 37% of them. That's like shooting 100 if you're another guy, Because the guy

I know. I know. So I think with the road last night, he takes six of them and he makes three. So I think, I do think he seems to be prioritizing

shooting more three. So I think if you're another team and if you can get him up the three attempts or four attempts per game, then maybe it makes sense where if he's actually willing to take those spot up three point jumpers.

And whereas on past years, he has not been, you know, much of a three point shooter in any regard, off the dribble or off. the catch. It's not going to be long until we're getting into all of the big trade talk, because now that we're a quarter of the way through the season, usually something hits in December, and then something will hit in January, and then obviously floodgates open in February

for trade season. All right, Kevin, I will talk to you later this week. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez, as always. And Kevin, I'll talk to you on Thursday. I'm looking forward to with this. Must be 21 plus in President Select States. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia.

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