The Mismatch - Nuggets Sweep Their Way Into the Finals, Debating the Lakers' Future, and Why Joe Needs to Go

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

Verno and KOC congratulate Nikola Jokic and the Denver Nuggets for sweeping the Lakers en route to their first-ever NBA Finals appearance (01:18). LeBron James had another amazing night in the loss, as the guys debate the Lakers' future after getting swept (21:27). Will Kyrie Irving be a Laker? Next, the guys discuss how the Heat are just one win away from another NBA Finals berth with Jimmy Butler, and how Tyler Herro’s injury was actually beneficial to their remarkable run (37:52). Also, KOC shares why the Celtics need to let Joe Mazzulla go (53:07). Lastly, the guys discuss the latest head coaching rumors and Carmelo Anthony’s retirement (01:12:36). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws that Explain the 90s every Wednesday on. Spotify.

Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Farnan. And joining me on this Monday night after the Western Conference Finals is wrapped up is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer, aka Kevin Obama, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Combron,

Kevin O'Candleon, Kevin O'Candiland, Kevin O'Candiland, Kevin O'Brien, how are you doing tonight, man? We got our first suite, potentially our first of two. How are you feeling about the game, man? How are you doing? 113 to 111, the Denver Nuggets beat the Los Angeles Lakers.

This is payback for all of the problems you gave me for the Grizzlies, losing to the Lakers and me being flippant about the Lakers' opportunity to be the Western Conference representative. In the end, I think what I am left with is it wouldn't have mattered who would have played the Denver Nuggets. That Denver Nuggets team was beating anybody out of the Western Conference. They have solidified themselves as a great basketball team and a rightful representative. What they did tonight flipping that game upside down in the third quarter is what stood out to me the most.

This looked like this was going to be the Lakers win. and then the Nuggets would go back home, inevitably face a tired Davis, a tired LeBron, who had given this maximum effort as to not get humiliated in the series. And then they'd wrap it up in the gentleman's suite coming up in a few days. But instead,

they came out of that halftime locker room and won the quarter 36 to 16. And it was at that time where I was like, okay, they're not fine. with just closing this thing out at home. I was, that was super impressive tonight, super impressive. That third quarter, you know, they outscored the Lakers 36 to 16, 20 points in the third quarter.

And, you know, that whole first half, LeBron is unbelievable. He has 31 points. He's flying around on defense. He only rests for the 4.3 seconds at the end of the half. But second half, man, Nicola Yokic came out and showed, here's why I'm the two-time men, here's why I average 31 points, 10 rebounds and eight assists in the postseason my last three years going back to the bubble year. He was absolutely extraordinary. I thought the first half, Yokic was reaching a bit on defense.

The Nuggets didn't seem to have the same energy. They did through games one to three. But second half, he comes out looking like the guy that we saw throughout the postseason, putting in great effort on defense, leading the offense and total. control. That stepback jumper he hit in the fourth quarter at the end of the shot clock another one like early in the series. Oh my God. There's just

nothing you can do about Yokic when he's playing at that level and when he's flanked by Jamal Murray putting in the the buckets that he did, the effort that he did Gordon and MPJ playing, defending,

rebounding. I mean, up and down this Nuggets roster, Malone landed on a seven-man rotation that has positioned them now to be in the NBA finals. They were just straight up, the battered team, and I'm with you, Chris, and they would have been in anybody in this position in the Western Conference.

Well, and you talked about how the others for the Lakers had been so good throughout their run in the playoffs thus far, and, you know, those were the guys. It was obviously LeBron showed up and had this remarkable game to not, It was just throughout this series, there wasn't the, you look at what their bench gave him tonight. And I know that Thompson came off the bench and gave him some energy, but they relegated DeAngelo Russell to the bench and he gets you four points. I mean, this is a $27 million player.

And that's as many points. Lonnie Walker gets you. Right. And Lonnie Walker plays six minutes in the whole game and gets you two points. And so this was a LeBron Davis operation with their season on the line. It wasn't even – Chris, it wasn't even an AD operation, though. 80, 615 from the night. I know.

Soft first three quarters. It wasn't really until his final stint in the fourth quarter that you felt 80 really made a true imprint on the game. I mean, this is a lot like early in that Lakers Warriors series where LeBron had a great game. The rest of the team was passive. tonight was the same thing. Nobody else really did much of anything. I mean, Austin Reeves, again, only 11 shots. I still point to that and think to myself,

how does Schroeder end up with more shots? How does Rui Hachamora end up with more? Austin Reeves throughout this entire postseason, and particularly in this series, I know he's a second year on drafted guy, but he's been one of your best offensive presences in the half court, and I just don't think the ball found him enough in this series, especially in games three and four.

They let Shruder run the offense way too much. I know, I know. The ball needs to be in Reeves' hands. I know. It's strange. Yeah, we talked about this last week in our episode, and I said, it's not game six where Memphis got throttled by the Lakers that I'll ever think about. It's game four. That's the one that will stick with you.

And I do think that Lakers fans, you know, you kind of resign. after you go down three games to zero as to what your fate is going to be, I think that as time passes, it'll be games one, it'll be game two. It'll be that you had the 40-point game out of Anthony Davis in that game one, and you came up short. And you had your opportunities in game two, and you came up short. This one too, though, Chris. I mean, game three is really.

the only one that got away from them. They lose by six in game one, five in game two, 11 in game three, and by two tonight. I mean, it was a sweet, but they were in each of these games in the fourth quarter. And that's where I think, like, really, it's all four of them, I think. You feel like if you're the Lakers, man, like this team was clearly not as good as the Nuggets. The Nuggets are the best team in the West.

They proved it. But the Lakers were close on a lot of these games. and I just think there's little things around the edges. Like even tonight, Darwin Ham, he finally changes the starting lineup, putting in Rui Hachamora, taking out Vanderbilt and Russell.

Like, that was overdue that change. And I think even the first half attacking, they brought Yokic into so many more ball screens than they had throughout the series. Like these tweaks, people like on Twitter are talking about, and yet Darwin Ham wasn't putting in those changes

until game four. I mean, Ham as a rookie, head coach. I think he's, I mean, it's been an up and down postseason for him. I think overall, if you're a Lakers fan, you have to come away encouraged with some of the tweaks he made. But I thought he got completely out-coaching this series. And some of these changes that happened in game four should have happened in game two, if not game three. Well, I mean, look, Kevin, I don't think you can have it both ways. They're right there in all

of these games. And I know you thought they were the better team coming into this. They're not the better team. That Nuggets team is just better. They know who they are and they know what they do. They don't have to worry about a bunch of lineup changes. You know, he ended up putting Gordon on the bench in that last game in the fourth quarter and it reaped great dividends. But they've kind of motivated him for a game fourth, didn't it? Right. And they've got their guys and they cut Christian Brown out of the rotation. So they had their seven. They're going to play brown some. They're going to play green some and then they're going with their guys. And these are guys that have been through it a lot.

They've been in that same big spot a lot. And frankly, when Yokic and Murray have both been able to be healthy, this team was great the last time we saw them when both of them were healthy. And this was clearly the Murray that, you know, much more like the bubble Murray than anything we have seen since. Oh, for sure. Frankly, anything we saw during the. regular season. This is a guy that averaged 20 points of game during the regular season. He had another

25 tonight. And I thought when we talk about who else, you know, you know that you got your best players, who else is going to step up? Gordon was the one tonight. I mean, he was absolutely outstanding. He played great defense. And then he got you 22 points. He hit three of five from three, grabbed you six board, four assists. He didn't turn the ball over.

and this was his best game by a mile, and they needed it badly. And so, and another night it can be Porter. I mean, I just think that they've got their seven guys, and that team has logged a lot of minutes together, and we talk every year, like, these are the scars, and they take it a lot of playoff scars. You know, they got done in by C.J. McCollum years ago,

I mean, same, there's some same major parts of that that went through that. You know, when it comes down to Crunchtime, they're running that Yokich-Murray pick and roll. It's the same pick-and-roll they were running when they were getting their hearts ripped out years ago. And the truth is, they got the best player in the world right now. He is out of control great. And that three that you mentioned earlier, that's, I mean, that's Anthony Davis. who's got a 20-foot wingspan and a seven-foot tall himself and is draped all over him

and shoots an unblockable shot that looks like he's, it looks like somebody throwing it in from a sideline in a soccer game and buries it. And it's like, come on, come on. This is just their thing. This is meant to be. This is like, you know,

I used to always joke about this, that's for the DVD. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like when they do the, when I was a kid, they used to say, Sports Illustrated. If you buy Sports Illustrated today, you could commemorate the Denver Nuggets championship.

And then they show these highlights that it's frigging Yokic, throwing a soccer, you know, inbound over his head, over Anthony Davis that goes in. I mean, and that was at a crucial point in the game that he did that. It's just crazy. I mean, it's, I mean, like, it's like you. put up YouTube, you look at, you look at Magic Johnson, some of the passes that he has, or Larry Bird, some of the miraculous shots that he hits from the 80s. And that, that's a yokech reminds me of just kind of that flair of the 80s,

where it's just this magical stuff that he's able to do with the ball in his hands. And like, there's a, there's a play. I think it was late in the fourth quarter. He was kind of cornered on the left wing, and he hoisted up the ball, and it kind of bricked off the top of the, of the backboard. But even in that moment. It's like, oh, the play is not over yet. Point three left.

And yet with Yokin, you just, you can't, you can't stop defending this guy. He's capable of those amazing things, man. And I do. Like this, this Nuggets team, man, I mean, the fact that they're in this position now is, I mean, it's a testament to the way they've built it out around Yokic. Yokic, he improved the ways that he had to on defense. We saw it in the second half. It really was apparent last season.

the progress that he made the last two years really winning his MVP's but this this series man playing 45 minutes not letting up at the end of the game at all no fatigue and great conditioning um and they put the guys around him you mentioned mpj Porter junior i mean like tonight he's five for 16 and game three he's four of 11 and yet after the game you got michael malone after game three praising him for the defense for the rebound and for keeping him for keeping the ball moving with the assist. I mean, the way he's evolved with Denver, the risk that they took

drafting Michael Porter Jr., considering all the injuries that he had throughout his life leading up, that was the type of risk that was necessary for them because I remember the quote at the time by Tim Conley, their former GM, was like, hey, I mean, like this guy's going to slide on the draft and it's not for basketball reasons.

It's just for health reasons. Otherwise, he'd be a top three picks, so it was worth the gamble for them. them and KCP, Bruce Brown, Jeff Green, Aaron Gordon. I mean, up and down the roster, man. They landed on a great, great seven to put him the floor alongside Joker. Well, and I think it's important to, when you bring up Porter, also, you know, he deserves credit because young guy was considered the best in his class from the time he was very,

very young. And you know, probably deep down he thinks he is capable of much more. But once upon a time, this team had a guy in Jeremy Grant, who thought he was capable of much more. But you're going to be the third guy at best on this team. And now you have to star in your role. And he's been able to do that without the amount of – and, of course, he got paid, so that makes it a little bit easier. Usually the issue with that is that you're not going to be able to make the amount of money that you would. want to be able to make or that you think you are capable of making.

But he's able to make his money. So they made him whole and he's able to star in that role rather than be resentful that he's not going elsewhere and averaging 25 points a game, which inevitably he thinks he probably is capable of. Oh, for sure. But he doesn't pout, right? He doesn't pout. No.

In the end, it all revolves around the one guy. that makes it all go. And he just makes every player better in Yokic. And you know how sometimes, like, say you watch an old TV show, like say it's, I don't know, the Sopranos or something like that. And somebody came along to you and said, you know, I never watched the Sopranos. And now I'm going through it.

And like there's a, there's a tinge of jealousy. Like, oh, man, like getting to watch that for the first time. Someday that'll be me. I've never watched the Sopranos. Yeah. Okay. Well, something like that, right? It can be any show.

Have you watched it? Yes. Okay, so someday, someday I'm going to tell you on this podcast, hey, Chris, I'm watching The Sopranos and you're going to be very jealous of me. Why is that? Because he's so special, because that show is so special, right? Right. And because it's like, you can only experience it once seeing it for the first time, right? And that's how you had to feel with Mark Jackson watching Yokic tonight.

Or Lisa Solters. What an opportunity for him to get to... What an opportunity for him to get to watch Nicoliochich? Because he talked about him like he's like, wow, this guy's really good. I mean, that was... Oh, really? He's on two MVP's like, everything was surprising to him, how awesome Yokic was. I don't fault Lisa Salters.

I think of Lisa Salters as an NFL person. I don't think of her as NBA. So when she said, wow, I underrated this guy. I didn't really give him the credit or whatever. I'm paraphrasing her. I don't fault her.

But like the Mark Jackson leaving him off the MVP ballot will forever be funny, even though he says it's a mistake. Do you fault her for interviewing Tristan Thompson at halftime? I mean, because that's when things really turned. I think, I think Tristan Thompson probably ran over to the bike. I can't fault her there.

Thompson loves the pastime. He's a Kardashian, Verno? Look, here's what I know. She interviewed him, and then they lost the next quarter 36 to 16. Dude. Despite the fact that they were talking about how,

like, anything he did, I know he blocked Porter, and he set a screen, but like, why is he posted up in a game, in a third quarter of a elimination game? I don't care it was against Jamal Murray. They didn't even send the double because they're not worried about Thompson post-ups. What was that?

What was that? Hey, I'll tell you this. Not a great, not a great look for your guy, Kev, when Tristan Thompson was on ESPN, has not played an NBA minute all year. Don't you dare. Don't you dare. I mean, this guy hasn't even played basketball all season and he still plays over him. He's been out injured. That's unbelievable.

He's been out injured. I can't. Tristan Thompson's been out of basketball. Basketball. Yeah, but at least he's been practicing. Bamba's been out. Practicing what? I mean, he's in scrimmages.

He's practicing. Oh, for God's sake. Bomba's been hurt. Don't blame Mo Baba. He didn't even play in the NBA this season. I mean, listen, I know this would have been a sweep the other way if Bomba had been active, but we can't blame Moamba for not playing in game four. That's not anything.

a mo he's been injured and that's unfortunate for the Lakers. I was just saying it's hurtful, it's got to be hurtful for you to watch him sitting there, he's active, and Tristan Thompson goes at the game. It was insulting. I mean, I was insulted and hurt, and I'm never going to forgive Darwin. Personally.

Oh, personally? Yes. It was absolutely insulting, and I think Darwin Ham missed something on his bench even earlier in the season with Bomba, but the spacing that he could have provided and the rim protections. And by the way, I'll tell you what, Chris, for three quarters, MoBamba would have been better than Anthony Davis tonight. Stop it.

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Hey, Darvin Ham, and I know you say, you know, you think it's too late. He did bail on guys like Vanderbilt didn't even play a minute. Oh, I know. I agree. You know, Danielo Russell was coming off the bench tonight. Like, Darvin Ham did not play favorites with his roster throughout these playoffs. I thought many times he went with the hot hand. And in the end, you know, LeBron was great.

But LeBron played 47 minutes. And with the game on the line, he hit the side of the backboard. on one, you can get a better shot than that with four seconds. They were coming out of a timeout. And hit the side of the backboard on this terrible fade away. And then obviously drove it into three guys at the end of the game. And so I don't know what you, if it wouldn't have been in LeBron's hands, he would have gotten criticized for that.

It was in LeBron's hands. And LeBron hit the side of the backboard and drove it into three guys. It's not taking away from the brilliance that was this game. I'm just saying, you know, Darvin Ham put the ball in his best player's hands. And the guy's got to make a play. And if he makes a play, it's good coach, bad coach. And he was like, that was, that was an amazing effort from LeBron. Amazing.

To play 47 minutes tonight is just freakish. I mean, don't say 47. he played, he really played 48, and like he played 47 minutes and 56 seconds. Four seconds. Missed four seconds in the game. That's it. And they got out scored by 10.

I'm kidding. Yeah. He was out for four seconds. I mean, that is, that's just crazy. I know the year 20, the 38 years old, don't take it for granted. But in all seriousness, playing 48 minutes with his whole season on the line

and putting up a 40, 10, and 9. They didn't, you know, it wasn't for lack of trying, because Lord knows he didn't take one second, or I guess he took four seconds rest, the entire game. Well, the previous all-time high points in the playoffs by a player in year 18 or later is 33 points by Reggie Miller in 2005. Before that, it was Kareem.

Wow. with 32 back in 1987 when he was 40 years old. And then the next high is Carl Malone back in 04 and LeBron James last round against the Warriors when he had 30. That's the high for points

in the postseason. So LeBron set the record for players year 18 and beyond. And, you know, granted, there's not a lot of guys that even get to this point. The fact that LeBron is even in a position to put his team

on his back on offense, he's defending Jamal Murray in the fourth quarter, clearly exhausted, putting it all out there, forcing 24-second violations, defending Yokic at times. It was an absolutely magnificent LeBron James' performance, despite being swept.

And I think, you know, for the Lakers, Chris, there's going to be a lot of talk about, you know, is LeBron done? Is LeBron anywhere close to what he was before. No, he's not as in this prime anymore, but he is clearly hurt now. I'm sure even possibly while we're recording this podcast on Monday night, you know, McMinneman and whoever is writing up the LeBron injury story and explaining everything, right? Detailing exactly what's wrong with him. We see him grabbing at his ankles and his feet all the time.

He's not 100%. Pull up video of LeBron James in January. If the Lakers had that guy now, it might be a different series. So LeBron at his peak health disease, was still explosive, still had burst on drives to the basket, still looked like a top five player in basketball, which he does not right now. He does not have that energy, does not have that in his legs. The question for the Lakers moving forward is, A, how do you build around him?

And B, can you get that January LeBron in April and May and you hope June? Because at his age, he'll be 39 next year. And in year 21, like, you've got to have the right support around him in case he does slip a little bit, and he's not quite the guy in prime peak position like we saw back in January. But I do think it's important to acknowledge that that version of LeBron is still there.

He's hurt now, and yet he's still putting up historic performances. LeBron's not done yet. He's going to be back. It's just a matter of how long can he sustain that success at his, it's such advanced age where these injuries are starting to become far more common for him. I mean, look,

It goes without saying that he's not going to keep getting better. For sure, no. It's just a matter of how long he's able to do it. And I don't know, if I was a Laker fan, I would not be thrilled about all these Kyrie's stories out there. How come? Why is that? I'll be curious.

Why? Because he has made every team he's played for worse. Well, I mean, yeah, but I agree. I mean, other than that? I agree. Oh. other than that well I'm kind of at a loss

I agree but can we at least agree on this part he's an upgrade over D'Angelo Russell oh my God come on come on Chris this is an easy one I mean you're making me yes he is better than

D'Angelo Russell all right okay so so if Karee if Karee tells the Mavericks hey man I want to go to the Lakers. The Mavericks are in a position to say no. They could just say, screw you, man.

Like, we're not going to sign and trade you to the Lakers for expiring deals with Baleek Beasley and Moe freaking Bamba. You can say no and say you can just walk and sign. They would 100% facilitate that. What are you talking about? No, don't because he's going to be a Laker. Don't change your tune now. Because with the Kyrie thing, you said there's nothing they could do with him.

And so this would be an out. This would be an out. What do you mean by this? If they could move him. This would be an out. Like this is a way to get out of the Kyrie business. If you're a Mavs. Yes.

So what I'm saying is, it's like, what I'm saying is the Mavs could say no to him, but they could say yes, as you're saying. But how much would the Lakers actually give up with those expiring, deals for beat as with malick beasley and mo bomba they combined for 26 million dollars and non-guaranteed money their guarantee date is june 29th which is before free agency before a sign and trade would be possible with kairi irving they also would be pushing against also the apron too so sign and trades could be complicated as well but if they could resign austin ree hattramora sign and trade in some shape or form for Kyrie Irving,

are you giving a first round pickback? Are you giving the 17th pick back this year? Regardless of the price, that's going to be the philosophical question here for the Lakers. Do we truly go all in here this coming off season on Kyrie or somebody else, whoever it is, do we go all in with some of these future assets around LeBron and around AD

and try to win this coming season the next two years? or do you maintain some of these picks and try to instill some youth in your team and retain some long-term flexibility? That's going to be the tough question for the Lakers here because they're looking further down the horizon like for the Lucas and the Yannis's. That's their dream.

Not giving up a first round pick for a guy who's blown up every franchise that's been part of. This is going to be the test. This is going to be, do we stand up against LeBron the GF? And they did the last time. And he went public. And they finally stood up against him.

And they, in turn, created the best team around him. Not by getting the guys he wanted by making the trades they wanted to make. Right? Because he's going to want Kyrie. He wants Kyrie. He has said he wants Kyrie. So that's the thing. We know LeBron, the GM, is not who you want to rock with.

But are they going to succumb? to that or are they going to make the best decisions for the franchise? And that's going to be a very interesting question in this offseason, you know, because I think that they, they bided their time. They were very patient. They took his, you know, media bullets, you know, took all the pressure of not getting rid of rust, giving up the first round picks, all this different guys stuff. And Belinka did a very good job of throwing together a roster that was capable of winning

by the time it was all said and done and was a big winner of the trade deadline. So proved, you know, he could do it, but that wasn't, that wasn't a LeBron operation. That wasn't going out and getting his handpicked guys that he wanted. And in fact, he was vocal about his disappointment about not getting. Kyrie in the off season. And I think it's all been this idea that that will eventually take place. And that's going to be

them squaring off. Honestly, like, are they going to do what he wants to do or what's best? It's undeniable though that Kyrie's an upgrade over Deelow. And I think, like, that's also the difficult thing here for Kyrie too. Because if you're Kyrie, like, yes, sure, you might want to sign for a big

longer-term contract in Dallas. Do they want to give that to you? Mark Cuban had has multiple times stopped short of saying that he thinks Kyrie is a max guy, which by the way, he's not. Like, you don't want to give Kyrie a four-year max contract. So if they start haggling with Kyrie and he's like, you know what, screw this, you know, could he go to the Lakers for a lower dollar value via sign and trade? Would he go as far as saying, like, truly an FU to the Mavs and signing with the Lakers for the mid-level exception,

which will be around $15 million. I don't know. but it's going to be a fascinating couple months ahead if the Lakers do indeed have interest in Kyrie Irving and I think with DeLo, you could say in recent weeks like hey, he's good enough that it's not worth going after Kyrie Irving but I think this series against Denver with the way he just completely was invisible on defense,

constantly making mistakes, out of position, poor shots on offense, not making an impact as a playmaker. I like Deelow. I think he's a solid player, but he just did not come through in the moments that mattered most during the season for the Lakers.

And like, Kyrie Irving, if he is actually a realistic option for them, I think you've got to go for it, especially if you can get him without giving up significant long-term assets. He just raises your ceiling so much, even if he does lower your floor,

considering the way things have flamed out for him in Boston and in Brooklyn and in Cleveland. I mean, let's not get back in Cleveland. I remember when he was ignoring his teammates for weeks? Like it wasn't just without LeBron either. It happened with LeBron at the end. But I think ultimately...

May have noticed that Dallas fell out of playoff contention as well. So, I mean, I don't know how many times you got to see it. And also, one other thing, Chris, if the Lakers were to get Cary Irvin, do you think that helps Dallas long term in keeping Luca? or does it hurt considering how much draft capital and assets they gave up to get Kyrie? It helps them. You think it helps them? So you think the Lakers taking Kyrie Irving from Dallas would help the Mavericks be keeping Luca.

Yes. Okay. Have a better opportunity of building a winning team around him. Okay. You're not winning with them. You're not winning with them. They've given up a lot of future picks, though, for the guys. that have just left.

KP. Kyrie, if he were to leave, they lost Brunson for nothing. Like, part of me thinks, I mean, like, you're screwed either way, like with or without Kyrie if you're Dallas.

But it's just something on my mind. Like, what happens? A sign and trade with Kyrie is your best opportunity at getting good enough players around you. Yeah. Because you've got to get a lot of players, Kevin.

Look at their roster. Tell me who you want. They need multiple players. That's why I think they might be screwed no matter what. Maybe they are. Maybe they are. It's going to be a fun off season for sure. I do think that when I talked about keeping teams together, the continuity, getting the

playoffs scars together, all that stuff obviously goes in the Nuggets favor. But also, I think it's good for the NBA that the Nuggets did win and win in pretty spectacular fashion because I think it would have really hurt the regular season even more if they would have gotten picked off because then people would have been like, dude, what are we even doing? Like seriously. If two play-in teams ended up in the NBA finals, I think that you would have had a very, you already got a hard sell and we all were, we lamented all year the regular season.

And you want the regular season to have some meaning for it to tell us something. and on Denver's behalf, it told us that they were the best team in the Western Conference the entire year. They kind of coasted the last month of the season, but that they were the best team the entire year. And I think they have more than proven it. And I think you could have lined up any team in the West, and maybe they wouldn't have swept them.

I mean, they didn't sweep everybody. In fact, this one is, this is a first sweep Denver has ever had. It's the first time they've ever been to the finals. It's the first time they've ever beaten the Lakers in a series. A lot of history was made tonight. And first finals in 47 years. I mean, no about long suffering. So I do feel super happy for those for those that are out there that have been

Nuggets fans their whole lives. Because you don't see this happen very often. Yeah, man. It's been that long. Yeah. I'm looking forward to going to Denver. I mean, you know, Atamata is, he is a bar there, DNVR, like the amazing Nuggets podcast and bar and network and all that. And like some of the videos I've seen from that bar with the fans there and the arena, how hype it gets there.

I'm excited to go to Denver for games one and two, assuming the heat finish off the Celtics, which seems, you know, inevitable. But, you know, games one and two in Denver will be very exciting with that rabid fan base. It's going to be a good time. I'm fired up. What an incredible amount of rest they are going to have. The finals don't begin until a week from Thursday. Yeah. If that heat thing does wrap up,

it's, I mean, what a bad deal for the NBA in terms of like the scheduling. If they both wrap up in quick form, you end up with a week and a half. And then it's like, oh, hey, here's the NBA Finals. I know, I know. That's crazy. It's got to feel like the Super Bowl off. You think they push it up, right? Nope, no can do this year.

All right, Kevin, we got to talk about the Easter Conference Finals. Boston is now down 3-0 to Miami. This is one of the most incredible stories in NBA history. I don't think that is hyperbole, considering Miami trailed in the final three minutes against the Chicago Bulls after losing in the opening play-in game to the Atlanta Hawks and now they are one game removed

from making it to the NBA finals. You want to talk about sliding door moments in NBA history. And I suppose that could be true of both series given that the Lakers were in the play-in and Miami was in the play-in. But, you know, let's just say, I mean, obviously, Miami could have gotten knocked off.

They're down with less than three minutes to go. Or they could have beaten Atlanta, and then they would have been seven, and maybe they would have faced Boston at the beginning in Milwaukee's still alive. Who knows? But the whole thing, just every time I think about it, it just gets crazier and crazier. And now here we are with Boston down 302 Miami. your overarching thoughts on what has happened to Boston and also how Miami is now one game removed from the NBA finals.

I mean, for the Miami side of things, it's like you said, Chris, they lose a playing game, and then they're down double digits in the second half of their second playing game. And yet they've, you know, they dominated the bucks in five games. they got through a tough Nick series and now they're up 3-0 on the Celtics team and I think from the Miami side of things

the way I'm going to remember this run whether they finish off Boston in four or five or however many it takes it's the way in which so many different guys have stepped up throughout this run whether it's been obviously Jimmy Butler leading the way that goes without saying

bam out of bio allowing them to play any single defensive scheme, him stepping up on offense in certain moments. We see him hitting the mid-range, that pull up, the little floater, dominating on the post. He had that big spin into a dunk in game three. We've seen him step up, but it's all of these other guys. I mean, you've got Jalen Brown after the game, game three, saying, we should be able to

contain these guys, Gabe Vincent, Caleb Martin, Duncan Robinson, Max Struz. These guys are actually just good. They're just good basketball players. And Caleb Martin, especially the way he's defended multiple positions, the toughness he brings, the three-point shooting, the attack and closeouts, the good decisions, Gabe Vincent, the pull-up shooting out of pick and roll, the timely shots he's hit, and Duncan Robinson, like, just burning past Grant Williams, the backdoor cuts, smack strews the shooting.

That's the way I'm going to remember this heat run is how all of these undrafted guys, have proven themselves to be legitimate, really good NBA players that bring the type of playoff qualities that championship teams need around two-star players in Butler and Bam Outta Bio. And it all happened because of the minutes that opened up, the vacuum that opened up with Tyler Hira being out. Hero was such a good offensive player,

but the diminishing returns from him when the best situation for your offense is to have, Jimmy Butler with the ball on his hands, Bam with the ball in his hands are Kyle Lurie in moments too. But with all those minutes, the 30-ish minutes per game without Hero, has I feel like allowed all of these other guys,

these playoff 16 game players to step up. And that's why the Miami Heat are on the doorstep right now of the NBA Finals. Just an unbelievable story of development because if you went and watched that Sue Falls team, you could have been there last year watching Gabe Vincent. You could have been there a couple years ago watching Max Trues.

You could have been there a few years ago watching Duncan Robinson. Like they've taken these guys, all three of their leading scorers last night, were all undrafted players. And so these are undrafted players that they got into their system. They developed them. They went to the G League. They played within that system. And then they brought them up.

And I do believe that, much like the spurs of yesteryear what we have found about miami is that they get the absolute maximum out of these guys that is the best version of those players and i think that that is really it's such a blessing to have an organization like that that you can't be because we've seen the guys go elsewhere we've seen kendrick nunn go elsewhere we've seen derrick jrude jr go elsewhere we've seen Derek Jones Jr. go elsewhere. We've seen guys that played within that Miami heat system go elsewhere. Other, like, that would be considered really good stories or fines.

And they have not, they have not reached that level of success when they have gone elsewhere. They have this ability. And because of their coaching staff and their heat culture, they have this ability to get these guys, develop these guys and then have them, you know, understand what it is to be a pro, but also like, you know, go the hard route. You know, nothing's given to them. They got to prove themselves all along the way. And so you end up with all of these guys that have to prove themselves all along the way.

I saw this video that was going around about Jimmy Butler, and he was talking about his competitive edge. And he said, the reason. I have a competitive edge is because nothing was given to me. I had to go the junior college route. I was told that I wasn't going to make it at Marquette and I had to prove myself there. I came into the Bulls and I was the 15th man on the roster and I had to prove myself there. And it's like there's something to that like this, you know, rather than you being granted your opportunity, they end up getting these guys that, you know, the ones that make it

through the struces of the world, the Robinsons, the Vincons, Dave had to prove themselves the whole time, you know, they're brought into that system. And there's other guys that they've brought in that are also undrafted or also second round guys. And you never know about them. They fall by the wayside. But the ones that can't. can get through it. They end up getting these gems out of it that can compete at the highest level. And they're not, it's almost like iron sharpens iron where you've got this same, they're not as talented as the Jimmy Butler's of the world.

Yet they've got this competitive edge because it has been required of them. So only reason they're in the position they're in is because they fought. to get in the position they're in, right? Totally. 100%, Chris. I mean, you're making me think about an article I co-wrote with Eric Weiss, who is like a sports psychologist,

runs this company called Sports Aptitude that works with Draft Express and all that. Back in 2015, I just pulled it up. On Jimmy Butler's profile page on Draft Express, you can see this article with the headline, Opportunity Knox, Jimmy Butler's rise to start them.

and everything you just said, these are definitely Eric's words that he wrote for this article, but it's to your point, he said, in social science, the fundamental attribution error is a way of stating

that humans have an uncanny tendency to give too much credit to an individual for their success or failure while completely discounting the contributing circumstances. And basketball, an example of that is like,

you know, a player turns the ball over. You might not talk about the floor spacing, you know, contributing to their mistakes. and Eric writes, Butler is a testament to this truism. Though he was better equipped than most to succeed,

his four-year journey to NBA stardom was littered with circumstances that were never predicted or pre-arranged to lead to this point. Taking the fundamental attribution error to heart, it is clear that one of the biggest market inefficiencies in the NBA is our lack of ability to account for the impact that situation has

on the success or failure of a player. And that speaks to exactly, what you're talking about with all of these guys. The Caleb Martins of the world, the Gabe Vincennes, the Duncan Robinsons, the Max Truces, all of them. They fit this profile of these guys who had to fight,

who had to grind to get an opportunity and get to this stage, like Jimmy Butler did, the face of that team. Kyle Lowry, for that matter, too. He failed time and time again earlier in his career or didn't meet expectations.

He's a second round pick. I shouldn't say fail, but he didn't become an all-star. until he was like 27 years old. No, no, no, no. Hold on. I covered Kyle when he first came in. The Grizzlies draft him.

He was a top 20 pick. But he was a top 20. But here's the trick, Kev. They took Mike Conley the next year. 24th. He went 24th. So late first. Those guys are never a guarantee, you know?

But they took Conley literally the next year. Yep. We're using that pick on a point guard. and Kyle was out. Like, I mean, he, you know, crushed him. His job gets taken.

That's right. Right. His job gets taken. He has to change teams. Things don't totally work out with Houston. And he's not an all-star. His first all-star is 28 years old. Well,

and here's the thing. Across the roster, it's guys like that. At the beginning, especially as a 19-year-old player, Kyle was better than Mike Conley. Yeah. Kyle was better than Mike Conley.

At the time, he was better. But the number four pick gets to start. Yep. Right? That's what's happening here. And it creates this edge, and then he spent the rest of his career

trying to prove everybody wrong. You know what I mean? And that's what this heat roster is, right? Up and down, Bam out of bio, the amazing Zach Lowe profile that he wrote about Bam and the edge that he has, you know, a couple years back that Zach wrote, I mean, every player on this roster,

or you can really say that about, you know, like minus like a Kevin Love type who, you know, in a different way, I'm sure he's been through adversity, but he's a top high school recruit, a top college recruit, he's a top five pick. But for the most part, this roster is filled with these guys with Jimmy Butler being the face of it. But that's, I mean, that just speaks to what heat culture is. When people talk about heat culture, heat culture is defined by the players that they target and that they bring to the organization.

It's the players that make Heat culture. Like, Heat culture is Jimmy Butler. It is Kay Lamarne. It is Duncan Robbins, these guys who had a fight. That's who defines it. And the fact that they've been able to turn their season around, though, like, no, the thing is, like, I've said to you so many times in this podcast that you said the whole year, well, Jimmy Butler in the regular season isn't the same guy in the playoffs.

That's true. But we still couldn't have seen everybody else on this roster stepping up in the way that they have to. position the heat to be on the doorstep of the finals like this. Like it is one of, if not the most remarkable story that we've seen in the history of NBA, at least in my time watching the game, second eight seed to make the NBA finals since the Knicks in the late 90s. But this one is more unthinkable considering the play-in circumstances and just how average they were all regular season as well.

Even with their best players on the floor, they were just marginally better than average. Well, one of the... Kevin, they were last in the NBA in points per game. Last. No, last. There's only two teams in the history of the NBA that have been last in points per game and reached the NBA finals. And you will remember these teams well.

The 1956 Pistons... This is where you get to say, you'll remember them, Chris, and the 1964 Warriors. Both. But, I mean, they were last. Last! You know, they didn't shoot like this. They didn't play like this. Caleb Martin, who you highlighted, go, I heard Ricelo mention this. Go look at his PER this year. Not that PER is the end-all, but it's not even that of an average basketball player this year. And even for the people who are listening to the pod saying points for games and old stat, they eat were 25th in offensive rating. If you just want to use the advanced stats, they still were bottom six in the league. And Caleb Martin,

who was, you know, had a PER of less than an average NBA player this year in terms of production. Six for 11, 15 points. 11 for 16, 25 points. 7 for 11, 18 points. Like, it is the dream that you would have a role play.

small forward slash shooting guard that could a wing that can go six for 11 seven for 11 you know and then every oh and then on the night where he gets more shots he's 11 for 16 but that you can take you know that you can be that productive and that efficient is just such a massive massive blessing and again these are guys that are playing better than They played throughout the season. Duncan Robinson wasn't even basically a member of this team. And Duncan Robinson was, I believe, what, the second leading scorer last night to Gabe Vincent? He played 42 games and averaged 16.4 points and shot only 32.8 percent.

Wait, he did not average 16 points. He averaged 16 minutes. Minutes, sorry. Did I say points, not minutes? Yeah. Yeah, minutes. 16 minutes. and four and four and fours worth six point four points just to give the correct number there.

Well, look, I think we did this right because Miami deserves credit for what they've been able to do. Totally. Totally. Once they were the authors of destruction for the Milwaukee Bucks, everybody should have perked up, right? Because that team was a great team this season. Joe Missoula has taken a tremendous amount of heat for good, good reason. He said after the game, I didn't have them ready to play. I didn't put them in the right mentality.

It's my job to have them ready, connected. I didn't do that. We have to be ready, play physical to execute. That is my job. I think we agree. I think it's fair to say we probably agree, Kevin. Yeah, as long as he buys what he's saying, I agree with him. Yeah.

Didn't have his team ready. going to go. They get to move on from Missoula. Simple as that. I don't think you get, I don't think, you know, I am typically on side of coaches and that players decide games. But when you watch that team, that team is

way too talented to be that disconnected and to a team that let's go with a rope like that in the Eastern Conference finals. That's a great way to put it. They let go of the road. That's a great way to put it. Second quarter, you know, whatever you want to

say it, it felt like they just let go. Let go. I mean, they were down 93 to 63 after three quarters. Yeah. That's insanity. It's insanity. And a must win. And I'm not saying, look, those players, they, you can't,

everybody just can't blame the coach. Like, they all got a look in the mirror. Because in the end, there's not a strategy in the world that you're going to implement that makes up for that. I do because that is letting go. Now, you could say they were disheartened because of their position that they were put in,

whatever, but that's just, that is intrinsic. Those players still, you can't be down 30 points through three quarters just because they don't have the proper strategies in order to succeed. They're too talented. Chris, I agree. I agree with you. I mean, like, we've, you know, I've hammered Missoula on this podcast for weeks. I don't want to repeat, you know, too much of that. Like our listeners know, Missoula is not the coach for this team for a lot of different reasons.

But putting that aside, you know, they should move on from Missoula. They should hire one of the many veteran head coaches available. Nick Nurse, Monty Williams, Kenny Atkinson, whoever it's going to be, they should hire a new coach. Putting that aside, regardless of the new coach, this team fell short. short with Brad Stevens. They fell short with E. May O'Doka. They're going to fall short officially, probably on Tuesday night with Joe Missoula. So the Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Corps will be on their fourth head coach.

It's not just coaching. It's not just system. It's on those guys as well. And with Jalen and Jason, it does raise the question of, can you win at the highest of levels when your source of creation comes from two wings. That question pops up for the Celtics with Tatum and Brown. It comes up with the Clippers with Kauai Leonard and Paul George. And I think for Boston, you know, aside from the obvious stuff,

Grant Williams, his free agency, what do you do there? Aside from the coaching stuff, some of the free agents and all that, the big number one question for the team is, what do you do with Jaylon Brown now that he's eligible? for a five-year, $295 million contract extension. Do you give him that money? Do you try to negotiate with him? Do you try to flip him to a team that is willing to give him a big contract extension?

To me, the latter choice is the clear route forward because I think we have seen the peaks of this Tatum, Brown Corps, and their limited creation. Tatum, I mean, look, I love Jason Tatum. I think he's a great player. He's shown that throughout the postseason with some of his moments. He, at this moment, looks more like a 1B than a 1A. The fact he's not taking these shots in the fourth quarter, the lack of reliable shot creation,

he needs to be flanked by somebody who can create. And Jalen Brown is not that. Jalen Brown is more of the finisher. He's the guy who should be in that secondary role playing off of these guys thriving in second side actions. But Tatum's not the creator either. So I'm going after like a Damien Lord, if I'm Boston. to me that's my number one target.

You've got to find a playmaking presence, whether or not you bring Jalen Brack. If you trade, if you trade Jaylen, you're trying to trade him for Damien Lowe. If you bring back Jalen Brown, you've got to find somebody who can reliably create for this team because Marcus Smart, he ain't it. Malcolm Brogden, he's not either.

He's more of a secondary guy. Derek White, he's not a creator in that sense either. You've got to find somebody who can create for your team in that back court. Otherwise, I think we've seen the potential peak of this team with the Tatum and Brown court. Starts with those guys. A leader on the court and a leader off the court. To me, Damien Lillard, number one option.

Yeah, you... This is perfect, because you're talking about, in many cases, the basketball and what fits next to Tatum. To me, the guy they put next to him, the guy they need, is the guy that MFs everybody in the huddle. Which is a Damien Lurd type. Yes. It can't be...

It can't be smart. It's got to be a great player! Yeah. It's got to be a great player. Yep. It does. It has to be a great player. The guy that gets in the huddle and said, this is not happening.

Not tonight. This is not happening tonight. Not tonight. You're right? Every great team has it. Every great team. They always have that guy. And that's not Brown's personality and that's not Tatum's personality.

No, not at all. It's just not. And they're never going to grow in. to that. That's just not their personalities. And the other thing is with the Brown thing, forget all the basketball side of it. I just feel like the whole year has been weird with him ever since the KD rumors. It just has. Oh, for sure. And I understand it because if I were, if I were an employee, like you could say on one hand, it's like, it's Katie. Of course they would be willing to do it. But he was the guy that he's the one that performed the best for them in the

NBA Finals. Yep. And he's the one that has, you know, done a bunch of stuff of the community, embrace Boston. He's been a fan favorite, the whole thing. And it's like, why am I? We're always trying to get rid of me. That's how it feels, if you're him, right? And it got to the point where it reached critical mass where they said that he was, you know,

jumping on FaceTime with Tatum and with, you know, I think it was Adoka at the time or Brad Stevens at the time. Like, what is going on here? Like, are y'all trying to get rid of me? Y'all try to move on. And it's like, you break that trust and you never get it back. You just don't. You don't get it back.

And it's their fault for letting that stuff leak to the media. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to go that far. I mean, sometimes that can leak from the other side, though, Chris. But how come we don't see? It's beneficial for Brooklyn to leak that. Boston wouldn't leak that. They wouldn't want to leak that. That's Brooklyn that leaks that.

That's fine. Kevin, but you've got to make sure that they're not leaking stuff on you. Yeah, I mean, that's part of it. It happens. And like, there's all manner of players that get talked about all the time. And there is a mode of operation that goes on in the NBA where, yeah, sometimes teams are going to leak stuff or whatever. Tell me this, Chris. Chris, tell me this.

Did the Celtics make a mistake not going all in for KD? Should they have gone all the way in instead of back and down? I mean, look, it's hard for me to say that, Kevin. when that dude was down 30 points at halftime. I know. I know. That's why it's a tough question. I'm just curious about your thoughts.

I mean, his playoff record without Steph Curry ain't so hot. I know. I know it's not. And it would bring it back to the same basketball questions of, would there be enough leadership with Kevin Durant and Jason Tatum? Would there be enough shot creation in fourth quarters with Kevin Durand and Jason Tatum? It'd be the same questions we're talking about just with a better player than Brown with Durant. And Jay LeBron has been horrendous.

in this year. I mean, he's 37% he's two for 20 from three. Can't dribble. You know, and he's he is a perfect example of what's been going on with them. Kevin, we talked about this all year long with them. And this is, for the people that don't like what the NBA has become,

in terms of the amount of three-point shooting. And I remember that famous quote a couple of years ago where Greg Popovich lamented it. And he said, you can just look at one thing in the box score, I can probably tell you who wins the games now. Well, that is absolutely true with this Boston Celtics. While they were celebrated at the beginning of the season for just beating the crap out of teams and Joe Math,

talking about the math event and that they were taking, not only were they taking a million threes, they were making a million threes. And the start was unbelievable. It's like, wow, this guy has improved their offense, and it goes along with the already great defense. This team is devastating, right? Well, here's the deal.

This season, when they shot, and by the way, they're shooting under 30% from three as a team, and they're down three-zip. This season, when they shot 40% or more from the three-point line, they were 36 and 2, 36 and 2, if they shot 40% or higher from 3. when they shot under 40%, the 29 and 31. Decidedly, mediocre,

less than mediocre, under 500 basketball team. So while we can be flippant and say, hey, I can just look at one stat, like you really can with them. They're 36 and 2. You could just go look.

Did the Celtics shoot 40% or higher from 3? Is the answer yes? then they probably won. Is the answer no, then they probably lost. Chris, I think this is one of my, this is one of my faults with Missoula. With Missoula, we can talk all day about some of the decision making in the postseason,

surely have played the two big lineup as much as he did. Did he do this adjustment too late against the Sixers, playing Time Lord, you know, having him remorse Tucker? Did he screw up these timeouts? Did he switch too much on Butler, yada, yada, yada, yada. To me, you look at him during the regular season and some of those concerns were there. But the big one was there was never like a backup plan.

They were a driving kick, take threes. They didn't have other ways to generate offense in the half court. Defensively, they had their primary switching scheme. They didn't have different ways. Look at the heat. Look at what Spolster does with that heat defense. They pull so many different strings and have so many different half court defensive schemes

with Bamato Bio empowering that, letting it happen on the court. But the way in which they play different zones, like one, two, two, three. They have different zones. They have different ways of helping off ball. They have different ways of playing pick and roll coverages with BAM. That's because of they build that over the course of the season.

The Celtics didn't do that on defense or on offense. And like it's tough. You know, Missoula has a month to prepare. Like it never should have been in this position. So you can't entirely fault him. But still, like that didn't happen over the course of the regular season. It should have, like it does for other teams. They just stuck to their same old way.

and didn't evolve at all. And I think that's the fault of a coaching staff. So when you talk about the players are at fault for, you know, letting go with the rope, you're right. I agree with you. But they might not even be in a position where they feel like they have to let go or will let go if they are put in a better position to succeed on the court. And that's where I think it's blame is shared on the coaching staff and on the players.

But that just has bothered me with Boston looking back now on hindsight at their regular season, the lack of backup plans. Well, to your point about Spolstra, it is in some ways, it's just, it's necessary that he does prepare in this way and has these different things because if you're going to have Duncan Robinson, you're going to have Gabe Vincent, you're going to have Kevin loves of the world out there and you don't want them to be targeted. Like, you're not targeting my guy because he's not going to be on you. You don't get the switch onto him where he's out.

there guarding you in open space because he's part of a zone. And so that's what we're going to do. And Rosillo had this unbelievable stat. He said that Spolstra, who most people would consider the best coach going, okay? And certainly at this point with this team being on the cusp of the finals. No doubt about it. This year they played the most zone of any team in 19 seasons. Yep.

You don't think that's going to get picked up all over? I mean, you don't think that other teams are going to copycat that? Of course they are. Maybe. Of course they are. I wrote an article in the ringer a couple years ago. In 2018, I wrote an article with the headline, Want to Shock and Elite NBA team,

how about a dash of zone defense? And it talks about the heat and some other teams. It's been five years since I wrote that, Chris. And Zone has been on the upward trajectory each year, but it hasn't yet exploded like Miami. So I do wonder now if this is, what had to happen. The eight seed heat

go all the way to the NBA finals and then teams say, you know what, we need to have more options on our defense in order to just, you know, baffle these offenses that are so high powered. That's what we're going to do and they're not just zone, but just different defensive schemes.

Well, and I remember, I remember like it was yesterday, the old grit and grind grizzlies, there were two teams that would come in to Memphis and would drop into a zone and just ruin everything. Because they couldn't shoot. Like that was the thing with that team.

They didn't have anybody to shoot you out of the zone. One of them was Spolstra every year without fail he'd do it. And the other one was Rick Carlisle when he was in Dallas. You'd get into like the third quarter. They'd drop into this zone. And a team that can't shoot can't score. And this Boston team can't shoot this. series. And you wonder, is it because of the looks they're getting? Is it because they played six

games against Atlanta? And then they played seven games the next round against Philly. And now, right? Like as this thing goes on and you're log in more and more minutes, your legs aren't getting any fresher as this goes on. And it's probably a combination of both. The amount of minutes plus the, plus the good defense by Miami. But just, Unbelievable. And one other thing, Missoula, and everybody has already talked about this.

So I just want to say I do feel bad for the guy. He shouldn't have been in this position. That's an amazing job to get. It's an amazing job to walk into. Set up for success. And he had a lot of regular season success. And in the end, the expectations are,

they're so high. He's in the Eastern Conference finals, right? He is. But because of the timing of it, because he was on the second row, and now, you know, I laugh every time Simmons says his dad calls him second row Joe. But he was, you know, he was a second row coach. And they lost, not only their head coach, they lost their main assistants. And then a guy that I've come across in my MBA, covering time. One of my favorite people that I've ever come across in the NBA is Damon Stuytermeyer.

I covered him as a college coach at the University of Memphis. I covered him as a player for the Memphis Grizzlies. I covered him as an assistant coach for the Memphis Grizzlies. And he was a player soothsayer.

And they respected him to no end. Even the most hardcore guys. And they, lost him about two months ago to Georgia Tech. And they, and that's something that never gets discussed. Never. Was the decision to bypass Damon Stottomeyer for Joe Missoula.

They went with Missoula over Stottomeyer. And I wonder, would things be different? Maybe not. Maybe the Celtics are worse with Stottomire. Maybe, maybe they would be worse. But you don't think for sure they'd be better with Stahmire than Mzula? I think so too, based off his wealth of experience. over the years as well.

I know how players react to him. That's the thing that Missoula's whole apology last night was basically, I can't connect with them. Yes. He was asked the question, you know, I forget who asked them, but they said, I don't want to say that you lost the team, but would you say it's fair to say that there's a disconnect with the players? And Missoula said, yes, there's, you know, there's a disconnect.

I mean, I guess when it came to the first part of the question, You can't lose what you never had. Right. He never really had the locker room as a guy who just moved from the second line, the second row to the first row. So he definitely does have a disconnect, though. And I think for Boston, I hope Missoula gets more opportunities to coach in the future,

but I don't think a team right now, look, Chris, like, you know, we talk all the time. We're talking about the Warriors. They have all these young guys on their bench, the two timelines. The Warriors last year couldn't afford for Jonathan Caminga and James wise men and these guys to be better. This year, they couldn't afford for those guys to be better because for veteran teams that have championship aspirations, you can't wait for your young players sometimes. You need to win now. And the same is true with coaching. The Celtics, they can't

wait for Joe Missoula to figure it out. They just can't. And I think clearly right now, Missoula, if he wants to stay in an assistant on this team or find a job elsewhere, he's deserving of that. But they need a new head coach, someone who's a veteran, who's respected, who has feel in games, who knows how to make adjustments, and that can build a veteran lead and staff, that's not what the Celtics have now, and they have to move on. I don't think you're going to have to worry about that because you might have seen the owner feeling comfortable while there's cameras out there telling Joe Missoula what to do, telling him to pull his guys last night. And Missoula basically saying, I am. Like, it's like, you got to have a coach that, like,

your owner's not comfortable to doing that in public. Like, I mean, it's ridiculous. And there's a lot of great coaches that are available. So before we get out of here, it was reported today by Andrew Wurginowski that the Milwaukee Bucks have whittled down there. Speaking of the coaches that, you know, a bunch of good coaches that are out there and available,

they've whittled theirs down to Nick Nurse, Kenny Atkinson, Adrian Griffin as possibilities. Obviously, you know less about Griffin then we do Ackinson and Nurse, who both, you know, Atkinson had created a super fun team with a really good culture in Brooklyn. And interestingly enough, is a Budenholzer disciple. He was on that Atlanta staff that is so famously produced a lot of coaches. Nick Nurse, he's got a ring, right?

And we've seen him coaching in Toronto. And Nurse being one of those guys who is unafraid to make adjustments mid-game. He's very good at adjustments. He lost that Toronto locker room towards the end. His voice just didn't have the same power there, but playoff-wise, he knows how to make adjustments. And Griffin is very highly respected within the league.

We just don't know because we have not seen him in those scenarios. And that's the only thing I'd be scared of with Adrian or frankly any. Anybody that hasn't been a head coach yet, that Buck's job does not feel like a learning on the job job. Totally. You know what I mean? Same thing I just said about the Celtics.

You want someone that's been there. Yeah, well, and the other thing is this. When they fired Budenhouser, I said it's going to be a lot easier to do worse than it is to do better. Yeah. So you better be careful with this because it's going to be a lot easier to do worse than It is to do better. With Atkinson, I think you could talk yourself into the fact that he could be better.

I think he's better. But we have not seen him coach at the highest level and you don't know until you get there. Nurse is the most sure thing. Yep. Nurse is the first name. We've seen him coach when it matters most. I would like to see Nick Nurse in Milwaukee, Kenny Atkinson in Toronto. I think that's like the configuration.

Interesting. But the thing is, is like Adrian and Wajunowski reported, the words Woj used were looms prominently in Phoenix and Philadelphia searches too. So Nick Nurse remains a candidate for the Sons and Sixers as well. If you're Nick Nurse, Chris, and let's say the Bucks, the Sons, and the Sixers all offer you the job to be their head coach. How would you rank those three teams? Bucks, Sons, and Sixers as Nick Nurse. Money's the same.

I think that you probably got the order the way you listed them. Bucks, son, Sixers, in that order. Yes. I agree. I agree. I think that's the exact order. I agree. And that is trust of Best Play.

Yeah, it's Yon. I'd want to coach Yannis. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, I'd want to coach them. I'd love to see Yannis and a Nick Nurse coach team. I would love to see it. Yeah.

I think that's probably who they'll end up. up with. And then last thing before we go, happy retirement to Carmelo Anthony. He made it official. 19 seasons. Ninth on the scoring list in the history of the NBA. Four-time Olympic medalist, of course, won a championship at Syracuse. Did not win at the highest level in the NBA. But I think, when I think about Carmelo Anthony, scoring and losing in the playoffs. Yeah. Is that fair to say? A lot of scoring. Yes, a lot of scoring.

Like, truly an offensive savant. Yeah, he was awesome. He was amazing. Let's save savants for the guys who could pass the ball. Okay. The other thing. He was a scoring, a scoring savant. Scoring savants, but not an offensive savant.

A scoring savant. You know what else I think about him? I feel like I'm being really negative. You know what else? You know what else I think about him, though? And it would be interesting to see if you agree. He's cool. Like Carmelo Anthony is cool.

He just is. He's like, he's got the swag. He scores buckets. He's like the way he carries himself. He's just cool. Yeah. And I think that Carmelo Anthony is one of those guys. The players always thought more of than

media and maybe even some fans. For sure, yeah. Right? And so he's a perfect game recognized game guy. Because if you ask a, if you ask a player about Carmelo Anthony, it's a lot different than asking some media nerd. Yeah, I mean, he was a,

he was a magnificent score. That's why his ninth in the all-time scoring was. He was unbelievable as a bucket getter, a lot of fun to watch. you know, a vintage mid-range guy. And, you know, I'll always respect him later in his career, you know, transitioning and being more of a corner three-point shooter, you know, doing what he had to do to try to sustain his career with the Lakers and Blazers.

See, I mean, I respect the, I respect players who do that late in their career, too. Also, an amazing international basketball player. Oh, for sure. Unbelievable. I mean, unbelievable. And he rightfully belongs on the NBA All-75 team, as well. one of the modern guys. A great talent, you know?

You know what's crazy? I was looking at that list of the top 10 guys, and I was telling my buddies today, I could have gotten. I think I could have gotten, because I knew about Carmelo, obviously, the LeBron stuff's recent. And, you know,

I've heard a bunch of times that he's top 10 score. I think within a reasonable amount of guesses, maybe 15 guesses, I could have gotten nine of the 10. And there is one player on there that I would not have gotten as a top 10 scorer in NBA history.

No chance. And it is a guy that I should have. The sixth leading scorer in NBA history is Dirk Novitsky. I would not have gotten that. No way. No way. Of active players, I think Durant's 13 right now.

Yeah, I just pulled it up. Durant is 13th right now. And then the next two are Hardin and Westbrook. Yeah. Yep. Which is crazy to think about. I would have, and Curry and Paul and those guys are a little further down on the list, as is Lillard. But those are all in the top 60 all time.

But I did not realize that Dirk is sixth all time. I know he had a very long career, but sixth all time. And so gotten to seek. Quite a few of those, you know, in this last 20 years, gotten to see a lot of those guys that are making these lists. Obviously, Durant is going to be very high on that list. It looks like, Duran, he's going to make the top 10 next year. Yeah.

In all likelihood. Right now, Durant, he is. 13. 13, yes, but 13, he is 1,397 points away from Carmelmo Anthony. So there's a chance he could surpass Carmelo next year. There's a chance he could even catch Jack. It depends on how many games he plays. So by the time next year, he'd be an all-time.

Yeah, Katie could really, Katie next year he could pass Hakeem Elygian, Elvin Hayes, Moses Malone, Carmelo, Anthony, Shaquille O'Neal. There's a chance that happens next year if he has a healthy season. Unbelievable. I know. I'm crazy. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez as always, and I will talk to you later this week. I'm looking forward to it, man.