The Mismatch - Redick to L.A., the Caruso-Giddey Deal, Bronny, and NBA Draft Rumors

Episode Date: June 21, 2024

With the Finals now behind us, Verno and KOC dive fully into the offseason, starting off with the Lakers' hiring of JJ Redick as their next head coach (02:34) and the Pistons’ firing of Monty Williams (23:44). Next, the guys discuss the surprising trade between the Thunder and Bulls that sends Alex Caruso to OKC and Josh Giddey to Chicago (31:01). They also discuss the latest news around the league, including Pascal Siakam re-signing with the Pacers, Sixers free agent rumors, and more (41:17). With the draft next week, the guys discuss the latest with Bronny James and KOC’s latest mock draft (48:11). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Y'all, it's the Midnight Boys. Poo-Bee-Boo! And we're opening up the kitchen again to talk about the Bears season three, returning to Hulu on June 27th. That's right, the Midnight Boys are taking over Prestige TV. How you feeling, cousin? Cousin! New restaurant, new takes, new ups, new downs, new season. I'm raring to go, Chuck.

That's what I'm talking about. Make sure you plug in to the Prestige TV feed. Van and I will be talking about every single episode. of the bear. That's June 27th on the Presage TV feed. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and join to me as he does every Thursday night from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Boncounter, Kevin O'Clymouth, Kevin O'Col Kevin O'Cquilin, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Fierre. What a busy

newsday. I'm glad we waited to talk off season. Oh, this is so good. So we are finally done with Jason Tatum, acting like every former champion over the course of the last couple of days in some of the most bizarre celebrations ever. I guess the parade's going to be on Friday, right? So it'll be when people are listening to this. But Boston's had like a major heat waves this week. Like it's felt like 106 and like humid.

It's like in Boston it's been like 95 every day with like a, 75 degree due point. So like it's been hot. And then tomorrow is going to be like 85. So it's still going to be hot, but not the heat wave they've been having. So good for them with a parade. Especially because.

Friday people are going to be off work and drinking. It's going to be rowdy. It's going to be crazy in Boston for sure. You think people are going to be drinking at this event? Yeah, totally. And I also think they might be taking edibles. Oh, my goodness. And smoking.

Oh, no. I know. Like a deading company show at the sphere. Well, I'm glad that the weather is going to be good. Okay. We're going to go coaching news, player news, then draft news. Lots of news. So let's start with coaching news.

And the Los Angeles Lakers have indeed hired JJ Reddick. This has been one of the most odd scenarios I can remember us talking about. may be the oddest of the scenarios where there was a report from Shamsarania several weeks back that the Lakers were zeroing in on J.J. Reddick. And then there was the story that they were zeroing in on Dan Hurley. And then Dan Hurley, of course, the Connecticut coach turned down their offer. And then we were back to J.J. Reddick. And then I read the article that was up on the athletic that I believe Yovam Bua and Sam Amit contributed to with Shams.

And it's very interesting to read kind of them laying out the timeline of this and about how Rob Polinka met with JJ Reddick at the pre-draft camp. Nobody disputes this. And then you had this whole. I guess Hail Mary as it was. They termed it with Dan Hurley. And then they were back to JJ Reddick. But when they met with Dan Hurley, that seemed like a Rob Polinka Jeannie Bus thing. And Jeannie Bus really wanted Dan Hurley.

But when they met with JJ Reddick, he had talked to Anthony Davis and he had talked with like stakeholders and all this kind of stuff. It's just so bizarre. But here we are, LeBron James podcast partner and for him. Former podcaster at the ringer, no less, J.J. Reddick is now about to be the head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers. We are now to the moment, and he signed a deal with them. They are hoping that this is the coach that they can stick with for longer than three years, which we had mentioned had not happened since Phil Jackson was the coach there. What do you make of it now that it's finally finalized, JJ Redick head coach of the Los Angeles Lakers? Well, I mean, the great thing is, is the podcaster to coach path is clear now. And you and I are interviewing next week with the Pistons.

That's right. And I mean, look, we're cheap and we know you've got to pay out $65 million to somebody else. So we will play Jaden Ivy. Now, the problem is I will have a great chance at getting that job. You will have a terrible chance at getting that job. Yeah, I like one of our former guys. Exactly what Monty Williams would have done. You would have gotten fired over trying to develop Gillian Hays.

And he did. You would have been playing Marvin Bagg, like 40 minutes a game. And it would have been great. And Jaden Ivy for sure would have been playing 40 minutes a game. They might be turning Jaded Avi, so we'll see there. But for the Lakers side of things, this isn't, I mean, we'll be joke about a podcast or the coach. but no, it's actually a guy who's been playing basketball at a high level for two decades. And it has been respected across different generations of locker rooms, you know, from college at Duke through all the NBA stops that he had.

And then he, you know, ran a highly successful company into an empire in a short amount of time in the media space. And he's been good at everything. And so I think for the Laker side of things, it's like we talked about about a month ago, when this first became like a possibility, right? and I said to you, well, I think J.J. has the qualities of a good coach. He's meticulous with his attention to detail. He's, like, obsessive, you know, with, like, the way he analyzes the game. He's a crazy competitor. That's why he's leaving a comfy media job to be the coach of the Los Angeles Lakers. It's not just about the money or anything like that. He is somebody who has these qualities. And I think the way Shams and the athletic detailed that meeting, they say, J.J.,

talked about how to get AD more involved in end-game situations, how to alleviate the workload on LeBron at his advanced stage to get him going more off ball and use him in more creative ways. You have Austin Reeves agent talking on the record posting on X about how you're going to see a whole new version of Austin Reeves under JJ Redick with the vision that he has for him. And I believe it. And I think with JJ, there's a strong probability he ends up a really good coach. Now, the Lakers situation is a lot of pressure. They go through coaches quickly. We'll see how, you know, JJ is with, you know, all the media stuff and ego and all that.

But I think JJ has the qualities to be a really good coach, and I'm really excited to see how this works out. The stuff that you talked about second is the stuff to me that I would wonder about. And I'm sure that that is something that JJ Redick, even in a moment of honesty, wonders about. Like, what is it like to be the head. coach of an organization that's that big where you really got a spotlight on you every single day. You will get criticized in a way that you are not used to being criticized. And I know that he's a guy that's been yelled at F you and whatever else. But, I mean, when you are the coach, you don't have a say necessarily in determining the outcomes.

And yet, you know, because you play this guy instead of this guy. all of these different types of things that could come up, any, any non-success, and given the situation the Lakers are in, I mean, even the most liberal ranking of them does not put them in the top half of their conference. In fact, many will have them back towards the play in, where they're playing towards a playoff seed. And so you are in a situation where the expectation, are very high immediately and navigating doing the job and dealing with the pressure of the job. And also one of the things that I would wonder about, wonder is a better word than worry, is the navigation of the politics of that job.

Because one of the things that I thought when I read that article, and I don't know if you gleaned the same thing, is it was another, to me, highlight of a too many cooks in the kitchen situation. That there is not. Rambezz in there, too, right, Palinka, the Bus Brothers, Gene. Talk to Mike Shoshavsky. And I told you this when I was explaining the story about Jerry West a few weeks ago when he had passed. And I said, one of the things that I covered on a daily basis was an, organization that had that. They had it before him and they had it after him in Memphis,

where it was, who's got the owners here that day? And sometimes despite that, they were able to have success and make right moves and correct moves. But when it's not linear, when it's not one voice, when it's not a guy that's in charge, or just not everybody pulling the same rope, where I am farming out ideas. What does this guy think? What does this guy think? Who is sitting next to Jeannie Bus at that game? And maybe they think that this is going on.

And you know that Rob Polenka, you know that he is the kind of guy that will say, it ain't the players, it's the coach. Because he said, one coach just won a title, and the next coach went to the Western Conference finals. And neither of them lasted three years. And whenever a team does not reach, whatever their goal was, now it turns into the blame game, whose fault was it? And this guy wins

every time. Every time he wins. Now, maybe it wouldn't with JJ Redick, but I'm just saying it's something to navigate. Is JJ Redick finally the guy that if they don't win, they're not going to blame the coach? I mean, I think for the Lakers, the interesting thing here is J.J. signs a four-year deal, And clearly Polinka is, you know, still in the good graces of Jeannie Bust, still have his job after, you know, everything in recent years, right? So I think the Lakers view JJ as like a transitional coach. I think, you know, Rich Paul, who's spoken on the record all week to me, to Gavoni, weeks ago, he spoke to Chris Haynes on the record about the Lakers coaching situation and Brani and everything else. Rich Paul said something interesting, I think is worth bringing up here. he said, I think the Lakers should be hiring for the coach for Anthony Davis, not the coach for

LeBron James. In other words, saying that LeBron is near the end, whether that means retirement or whether that means him leaving Los Angeles this summer considering he can become an unrestricted free agent. Now, because JJ and LeBron have a podcast together and because they clearly have a good relationship, I would think that increases the chances that LeBron returns this summer. But whether it's this year or whether it's next year or two years from now, if it's two years from now, JJ still has two years left on its contract. And then suddenly it's a completely reshaped Lakers roster, a transitional period. So I think with the Lakers, it's pressure to win for two years.

But it's also a long-term thing that they're doing here. part of me I can't help but wonder if this is a long-term move here because Polinka it's been two trade deadlines in a row he didn't go all in and trade all their picks that he could have. Like they haven't gone in for two years in a row now

despite having LeBron James, despite having Anthony Davis. So why would like this coaching move mean they're all in still? Like I don't think that they are all in. I think they're playing for the future. and JJ is going to get a longer leash for that specific reason, regardless of LeBron's status. It's a good point.

Because when they talked about Dan Hurley, they talked about, you know, building a culture, setting up a development system and all this kind of stuff. And I do think with the JJ hire, when you put it that way, it serves two masters in the sense of LeBron is happy right now if he stays there, right? because that's his buddy. And you would imagine, I've talked about this over the years, the most important thing is for the coach

to have the best player on his side. So if LeBron James and him can be, you know, and Anthony Davis as well, they can all be on the same page that obviously goes a long way towards success. And the other thing is he's a young guy. If he's really good at coaching,

then yes, you have your coach for years to come. Could be decades. Like if he's great, he could be one of those types. Sure. And so you get to serve two masters. You get a guy that LeBron's happy with now, but also because I don't think that is an easy needle to threat, having one that LeBron would be happy with now, but also one that is a non-Lebron

coach for the future. I think, I mean, look, I think JJ checks a lot. of boxes. I think all the stuff we're talking about from the Lakers point of view, I think it makes sense. I like the fact that they're doing something different. They're not hiring a coach that's been there before that has their ways. They're not hiring Monty Williams. They're not bringing back Frank Vogel. They're not bringing back one of these coaches that's been a name for a long time. They're bringing in somebody new and fresh. And somebody who I think, you know, listening to him talking on his podcast, Jay has got a lot of good ideas. And throughout his career, he's always been

a really high level player for his role on his position. So he's been one of the best in sports media as a broadcaster as a podcaster. JJ might just be one of those people who's good at everything he sets his mind to. He's very clearly always willing to put in the work once he puts his mind to something. And he's very intelligent, right? I think with JJ, he's very, very intelligent. So, I mean, I sound like I'm just blowing him here. But I could see him being very good.

Yeah, I think JJ's impressive. I really do. I think as a person, I'm very impressed by JJ. And I've always felt that way ever since he was with the ringer. And ever since I first met him years ago, like, we're not super tight or anything like that. But, you know, I think I've never met the guy. I don't know. I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, but I do think, so my opinion is just from afar. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like mostly from afar for me. And it's like, can you do the work and can you get along with the players? And then the two things that I talked about, which is. Sometimes that's a lot more, a lot harder on coaches, especially in a market like that,

where it's like you're starting to get blamed. Look, be, and let me say this, I get that he's close with him. Being LeBron James coach is a thankless job. It always has been. It always has been. Will it be with a guy with the name recognition of a JJ Redick, though? Sure. Well, JJ is suddenly starting a lot of credit because the Lakers,

offense changes. The LeBron fans don't care about anything but LeBron. Of course. That's all they care about. And if they don't have success, they will never blame LeBron. Of course. But if they do have success, the things are better, I think it'll be some shared credit involved there. Especially if they're talking about it.

Not by LeBron James fan base. But especially if they're talking about it on a podcast together once a month. Yeah, maybe. game. Do you think, do you think this guarantees that LeBron stays or do you still think there's a chance he sneaks into like Phoenix or Dallas or somewhere else, Golden State? I mean, I think either way, they took care of his guy. So I think it would be, I don't think necessary. I don't think it guarantees anything. I think that he is going to play with his son. Well, here's the thing, right? Think about the Rich Paul comment this week to Gavoni. And like, Rich might be doing nothing but trying to create leverage. Rich LeBron and that's it. Like, that might only be public leverage plays here on Rich Paul's side.

But what he said to Gavoni was LeBron is done with the idea of playing with his son, that if the Lakers drafts brawny, it doesn't mean that LeBron's going to stay. I just think those comments are worth mentioning to people listening to this show who may not have read them online or seen them on TV or heard them on a podcast. I think it's just interesting to think about because LeBron's going to be 40. he's got four championships. I'm someone who's written two or three times over the past year

on the ringer and said on this podcast how I think he should continue trying to chase championships. And if he feels like Dallas or Phoenix or Philly or Golden State is putting the pieces together to give him a better chance to win more championships,

I think he should leave. I think unless the Lakers make additions to further improve the team, like to me, he's still great enough as a player. He's still one of the 10 best guys in the league. He still can contribute at a high level to a championship, even if he's not the best guy night in, night out basis. On some nights, he can be.

I think he can't leave these potential championships on the floor just to stay in L.A., just to play for his podcast, buddy, just to play with his son. LeBron had always said he wants to play with Brony his final season in the NBA, not Brani's first. He always said the last season of his career he wants to play with his son. Well, he has time until the last season. he's still a high-level player, and I hope he continues to pursue championships,

whether that's in LA or somewhere else. Well, and I also, I have never been able to get out of my head, and it's not as if everybody gets their NBA news on a regular basis from Kerry Champion. But do you remember that when Carrie Champion it was like right before that last game, and she was like,

it was some, I'm paraphrasing, but it was something to the effect of LeBron James about to play his last game as a Los Angeles last, Laker and I was like, wait, what? And she is plugged in. You know what I mean, with people? And it was just so odd that I remember thinking, oh, is that like a thing? Is that like a talking point amongst people that like know everybody?

This is what she said. Exactly. She posted on X hours before the elimination contest. She said, just got a text from my friend. He says tonight is LeBron's last game in purple and gold. Yeah. And she's. never been able to get that out of my head.

Yeah. I mean, like, I think, like you said, Kerry Champion is not, you know, newsbreaker, but she's very much in the know. And why would she put that out there? Yeah, no. I think it's like kind of one of those things that's like a, you know, putting this out there. Told you so. Right. Like, she knows something that nobody else knows.

I told you before the elimination game that he wasn't going to be around anymore. Yeah, I don't know. And people that really know, no, he wasn't going to be around. You know, that kind of thing. I don't think you can rule it out. I mean, until he signs that dealer ops, I don't think you can rule it out, personally. I don't.

I think I've never bought the idea completely that LeBron has done pursuing championships. I think he, I mean, you just see it on the floor. Like, the guy's still an intense competitor. He has not lost that edge at all. LeBron is still out there busting ass, you know, in the games that matter. And he's still putting in all these countless hours into his body. Like, you don't do that if you don't have the desire to compete on basketball's biggest stage in June. and if the Lakers aren't making moves that can help him do that,

to me, I don't know why he would stay. To me, that's wasted years. You could frame that another way, too. If the Lakers aren't making, are not succumbing to the pressure of LeBron James. Yeah.

He burned him on the Westbrook thing, bro. He did burn him. So, you know, you can frame it as the, are they standing up to him by saying, Like, no, man. Like, we know that you want to get rid of DeAngelo Russell and Austin Reeves or whatever if they can bring in Prey Young or who, you know what I'm saying?

Whatever, whatever the case may be. But we're, we've got a franchise to think about. Totally agree. And I support the Lakers. I think the Lakers are the right to do that because it's hard to go all in around a guy who's about to be 40. But he's always gotten his way. Of course. He's always gotten his way.

And now because he's past that point. He's past it now. Well, he could get his way with wherever he goes next, right? Well, I mean, he could go to a team where there is that pressure. Like, let's just say it's Dallas. Let's just say he managed the finagle his way there and sign and trade or opt in and trade, right? The pressure is on Dallas to get it right as quickly as they can around Luca. Like, I know they just made the finals, but he's only got a couple years left on his contract.

You can't go down from here. You need to keep getting better or else he has a wandering eye. So, like, that's true for Golden State with the age of Stefan Curry and the age of Draymond Green. It's true for some other teams that he could go to where there's intense pressure to win now and maximize the window that you have. It'd be true if he were to go back for a third time to the Cavaliers. It would be true. With Donovan Mitchell, if he re-signs his deal and they were to trade LeBron for Darius Garland or some combination like that, there's certain teams where that pressure and the intense pressure to win today would be there.

Ultimately, I think the JJ hire and all that signals that he'll probably be back, but I'm not 100% in. And I think it's worthy of at least pondering about the days leading up to the draft and the weeks leading up to free agency. Because, you know, expect the unexpected in the NBA. That's always been the case for years. Well, the other thing is Dan Hurley, and I know that everybody was pulling like, wow, I think Dan Hurley's super smart, you know, that kind of stuff when he was saying that after he won a championship. But Dan Hurley Since a lot of media stuff

Like why is his wife Do and sit down in interviews I don't know But it's kind of wild But Dan Hurley was not a LeBron James hire If they would have done that You know what I'm saying

LeBron did have some posts about I got you Smart Hurley is but yeah I got you But that's not You have no control And like it wouldn't be collaborative As much with Dan Hurley

Herley Correct And they were willing to do that Yeah Or at least Jeannie was Yeah Which is why like I can't help but think

All these moves are about the long term. Yeah. Seems that way. What was not about the long term, at least financially, was, and maybe it was for the long term,

basketball-wise, was the Pistons giving Monty Williams the axe after one year, despite the fact that he's got $65 million left on his contract. Do you know how terrible you have a job you had to have done for somebody being willing to,

you have got to go convince the owner to pay a guy $65 million bucks not to coach you? I mean, I promise, Kevin, we will never see this again. This is historic. Yeah. Truly historic.

There is no owner. You have to be so bad that for somebody to be willing to pay you $65 million to get out of the building. That's crazy. If you talk to anybody in like the circle of the sons after they fired Monty, after that Denver series when they lost in six, they were shocked that the Pistons gave Monty Williams that deal. It's like, yo, this guy was playing Josh Okie and Tori Craig for heavy minutes in games one and two, despite everybody on the coaching staff and despite everybody in the organization like, hey, We have shooters that you could play that can actually help our struggling half-court offense or solutions within the roster.

It took until games three and four for him to actually make those changes. And it was like that all year along with him would, like slow to make changes, stubborn, not collaborative, not listening. And then he goes to Detroit and falls flat on his face when he didn't even really want the job. Like he wanted to take a year off. I'm not shocked. the pistons made a pivotal mistake. A stupid mistake. And that's why their GM, Troy Weaver has also gone and why he's been replaced.

So, like, Weaver's gone. And he was the one who led the way for the Monty Williams hire. And, you know, for Detroit, they actually have a pretty good infrastructure now, it seems, but now they've got to hire a coach. So we'll see what they do. They do have to hire a coach. And I will say the Monty Williams thing, like, well, I guess the young player, right, that was part of that Phoenix thing, was DeAndre Aiton,

which was the one that was alienated literally the most. And his trade value was tanked because of the relationship with the coach. And also, like, I think he was certainly in line with Chris Paul, right? And Chris Paul now, in retrospect, you could give him a lot of credit for what they were able to do by getting to the finals that year under Monty Williams. But just a, I mean, a despicable job that he did last year with a young team. and you think about the stock of all of those guys. It's crazy to think about because there's a lot of players that we like and still like to this day.

I mean, we all like Duren, but I would say generally in the NBA from afar. It's not like everybody was watching every Pistons game. But just as talents, still like Dirlin, Duren, still like Assur Thompson, still like Cade, still like Ivy, still like a bunch of guys. And it's. B. Stu? It's just kind of odd, right? The way it's the way it played out.

And hopefully they were able to be just hit the reset button. And I, you remember, I destroyed them so bad at the beginning of last season or rather maybe it was even the season before that I remember there was a story in the Detroit Free Press about our podcast. You remember that? Oh, yeah. And I was like, this should be the fun young team in the NBA. Like, this is what this should be, right?

Like you're growing with the team. You're seeing guys do things that they've never done before every night. And instead, it's just despicable. And we're reading articles about like, oh, maybe Marcus Sasser's the best guard on the team. Like, what the F is going on? What is happening? It's just crazy. This is fine.

I just pull up the article headline. Detroit Pistons ripped for disgusting starts a season, despite collection of talent. You said pretty much the same thing. This is Monty Williams' fault. They buried Ivy. They brought in Kevin Knox and gave him more minutes than Ivy, and he wasn't even on the team until last week. And I said essentially, like almost verbatim,

the thing I just said to you, if the pistons were paying any attention to the sons before paying Williams the highest salary of basketball, they know this is a thing. He took forever to feed the ball to McKell Burgess with Paul and Booker out. He took forever to adjust the postseason when they were saying off non-shooters. Monty is not always good.

not always doing what makes the most sense. He's a good motivator, good man, but basketball-wise. I think we're seeing some of those issues with Detroit already. So, yeah, they quoted us a bunch in that article. Crazy. I mean, hey, I mean, he's gone already. Head of the curve. We were ahead of the curve.

I watched him, and I told you immediately. This is disgusting. What is this? Good for the pistons, though. I mean, I think, like, for the ownership and the higher-level decision-making makers there to pull the plug on something so quickly, that shows, like, a willingness to just not be mediocre. They're a team that's willing to make some quick changes and realizes when you make a mistake, time to cut loose and make a change to make it better or else it just gets worse and worse and snowball.

So good for them. The other thing is you're bringing in a new guy. You're bringing in a trade in Langdon. You have absolutely no chance unless they have a strong prior relationship of pulling the same rope, as I said, because one guy's got $65 million left on his contract. You're not telling him anything. There is no collaboration when it comes to that. You know very well that Troy Weaver in that front office is going absolutely bonkers with him. Like, bro, we didn't bring in Kevin Knox for you to play him 30 minutes on the first night.

The guy's not even on an NBA roster. What are we doing? Our top five picks are buried and you're playing these bums and we lose every night? Like, can we at least develop our young players instead of, them all being miserable? It's just crazy. It's crazy. But again, he's old school guys, so I guarantee you.

I've been around guys like this. Front office, get away from me, get out of my practice. You hired me to coach the team. Let me coach the team. And they're like, but, but, put, put. And he's like, let me coach the team. If you don't like it, fire me. Pay me $65 million.

I guarantee, in fact, those words probably came out of his mouth at some point. Right. If you don't like the way on coach of the team, get rid of me. Yeah. They finally did. They finally did. And now we'll see if they're hire. They're bringing in, you know, Wolf's assistant, Mavs assistants, and we'll see what happens. Yeah, I saw J.B. Bickerstaff's name was in there.

Mike Anori was in there. Yeah. Maybe they'll end up with somebody good. I hope for them, man. They got a good fan base that deserves so much better. They really do. Player News. this Alex Caruso trade today stunned me.

Oh, my God. That was awesome. Alex Caruso from the Bull, from the Bulls to Oklahoma City for Josh Giddy. And then everybody was doing the refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh on Twitter to see if something else was included. And then that was just it? It's just Alex Caruso for Josh Giddy?

I guess. Unless there have been no other details that I have seen. That is it. That's all. Just Josh Giddy for Alex Caruso. That's all. Nothing else. Okay.

So let me just say this. I think from a pure asset standpoint in a vacuum, it's fair. Giddy is super young and you get a younger asset for the Bulls than a 30-plus-year-old guy with an injury history like Caruso. However, these deals aren't made in a vacuum. The Thunder have so many draft picks. Right. And the Bulls were previously asking for two first-round picks and a player at the deadline because Caruso was a top four, top five defender in the entire league,

and he's a great shooter, and he's willing to do all the dirty work. He'll set screens. He does it all for your team. He's such a dog. That's why they're asking for so much. So to not get a pick from the team sitting on a mountain of draft picks, I'm surprised that the Bulls, Didn't even get like a heavily protected or like one of the worst of the 10 plus first round picks with the O KC Thunder half.

It's just weird, isn't it? Okay. But are you surprised? They suck. They do suck. And they have, and they have. When have they ever done anything smart? The bulls are ass.

The, the, uh, the Kobe White deal looks amazing in retrospect. Yeah. That's about it. They got him on a great deal. But honestly, they didn't even know what the hell they had. The only reason we got to see what Kobe White was was because Zach Levine got hurt. If Zach Levine's in, we never even get that Kobe White, right? Yeah.

Never get the ball in his hands like that. We never get hit. You know, so they didn't even know what they had. Obviously, they didn't know what they had. And so it's like, you know, they're always a day late on this stuff. And it's like, you could have gotten. more for Caruso. And certainly, I would be thinking, like, who needs this?

Who wants this to happen more? Oklahoma City, right? Like, this guy doesn't fit. This guy does not fit with us. He was a liability. The whole world knows he doesn't fit with us. And he's going to be up for payment. In a year.

Right. He's in the final year of his rookie scale contract. So the Bulls are got a half the money. pay him. Right. And next summer. So who wants this to happen more? Okay. C. By far. Right. How much does this improve the Bulls next year? I mean, they're going into a rebuild. I would hope. I mean, I would hope. I would hope. You never know with the Bulls. They've always been stuck in the middle. They're always been fine. I did read something today saying that they were trying to move off of Levine so that they could pay Pat Williams and DeRosen. And I'm like, oh my God.

Yeah, but why would you want to pay DeRosen? I don't care. I know. Derosen's in his 30s. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Like what you should be doing, yes, re-signed Patrick Williams, but you should be,

you know, sign and trading to Rosen or letting him walk and trade Vouch and just play young. Like, just be a young team, especially with the draft class

as strong as it is next year in the following year after that with some real prizes up top. I just don't understand why you'd want to play this from the middle. It doesn't make any sense to me

if that's what they do. If they're going towards a repeat, a rebuild, then I get it. Giddy's in his early 20s. He's a talented playmaker. He's got size. He's got defensive versatility. If the shot continues to trend up,

well, great, you know, that'll be a benefit for him. But he's stunk in the postseason. He's going to get paid in a year. And like, there's no guarantee the shot gets better when he's away from Chip England, OKC's, you know, highly respected shooting coach. So I understand, but I do think, I do think he could be an outstanding player with the ball in his hands. But do you want to take it out of Kobe White's hands?

I understand. Well, I just think there's, it's a lot less obvious to have, with him playmaking, it's less obvious that it wouldn't be a better shared role with Oklahoma City. It's Gildes Alexander's team, bro. Like, so a lot of the side of that for OKC, Chris, that, the, it is SGA's team. And that's not going to change. Jalen Williams being number two, that's not going to change. But what does change is all the touches that Josh Giddy received now go to Case and Wallace.

They go to Chet Hongren. He was a great regular season player, though, Kevin. I know. You can't place everything on what he did in the postseason. I'm not. But I'm saying, I'm not. What I'm saying is is Chet Holmgren now gets a further investment. Kaysen Wallace now gets a greater investment.

Like those guys are going to benefit from a developmental standpoint, particularly Chet. Chet as a guy who's seven feet tall but can handle the ball. Now you get Alex Caruso the best guard wing screener in the league. They're going to be able to run so much weird, inverted stuff with Chet run and pick and roll instead of Josh Giddy. To me, this is going to raise the ceiling of the thunder in ways that are really unpredictable because Chet should improve individually. SGA could get better. Janna Williams could get better.

And Caruso is just one of those pieces. that enhances everybody around him and especially the types of talents that Oklahoma City has. So Giddy's been, he was good during the season, he sucked during the playoffs, but even though he was good during the season, all of those touches he got

now go to these players that are better fits and have higher ceilings within that ecosystem. I'm not sure that that's true. I'm not sure that they are, they have higher ceilings. Look, if it turned out, if Josh Giddy,

Chet, no, if Josh, He is a connecting player and a willing passer and a really good rebounder. Josh Giddy is good. The problem with Josh Giddy is he destroyed all of our perception of him because of his freaky-ass ways off the court. That's the truth. We all love Josh Giddy. Everybody loved Josh Giddy.

And if all that freaky-ass shit didn't happen, we would still have a much higher opinion of Josh Giddy. And we would have given him more of a pass for even his playoff play. Like that's not even... I can't look at the guy without thinking about it. I mean, I'm not talking about it. I'm talking about the game and that's it. I'm talking about Chet Homer getting more touches.

You don't think Chet Honger has higher offense upside than Josh Giddy? It's not just the ball is not going to be with Josh Giddy, so now it's going to be with Chet Homgris. It is going to be with Chet Homebring. I'm telling you it is. It is going to be in the hands of Chetmore. It's not like Josh Giddy wasn't passing the ball to Chet Home Gritty. Yeah, but they're going to be initiating more. they're going to be creating more.

That's what's going to happen. We'll just watch. You'll see. Well, and Alex Caruso, this could look, you could look up. I know you want to, you know, throw this way. You could look up and this looks stupid because Alex Caruso is a great role player. And he gets hurt a lot. And if Josh Getty turns out to be awesome by age 25, 26, 27, that is something we all predicted would happen.

But it's not, but that's not going to happen with Oklahoma. city. No, I agree with you. Exactly. So like that's why to me, like the deal in a vacuum is perfectly fair because OKC gets what they need, an enhancing piece for their young players who are continuing to improve and the bulls get what they need and a young guy who fits in an area of need next to Kobe White and, you know, something to build with with Patrick Williams and all that if you bring him back. So it's mutually beneficial. The only weird part to me in all of this is that OKC didn't have to give up another asset to make it work, considering the Bulls' needs at the deadline. But in a vacuum, it's fair. And I think Josh Giddy is better than any of the offers that are out there

at the deadline. He's a more talented player. He's better than some theoretical late first-round pick in 2025. This is a better deal for the Bulls. But if I'm a Bulls fan, I'm like, really? You didn't get at least one first-round pick? I know. Especially with how bad they probably coveted having Alex Caruso on their team. And the stuff. Lock on Giddy is just low, man. It is exactly. It's low for all the reasons you talked about off-port reasons. It's low because he sucked in the playoffs.

It's low because everybody knew OKC had to get rid of them. But Chris, I'm telling you, you're going to see a lot of chat on ball. You're going to see more Kason Wallace on ball next year for Oklahoma City. They're going to be the guys who absorb touches unless OKC gets a veteran guy. But I'm not so sure that's going to happen. Yeah. Maybe so. And we will see how it plays out.

I mean, they were a great team this year. the number one seat in the Western Conference. Yep. Right? And so they didn't have that big of problems. Mm-hmm. And if they made some threes, I get it, that his shortcomings came to pass when it came to the playoffs,

but they missed threes that they made all season. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And if they're moving on, then maybe that, you know, that giddy stock isn't as low as it is right now, is what I'm saying. For sure.

Because he was part. of and a big minute guy on an outstanding team. Yes. This year. And so we'll see where that goes. Next step for the Thunder. I hope they draft Zach Edie with the 12th pick. Just saying, just throwing that out there again.

I hope they take Edie. Edie is the guy. Okay. Pascal Seaccom. Or trade up for clinging or that. Just okay. I'm done. Done on okay.

See, that's all. Pascal Seaccom, four years, $190 million bucks. I mean. A lot of money, but he was great. Yeah, and you all, like if you're Indiana, it's like, you know, you're retaining that asset. He was very good. And I think there was, you know, there had to have been the wink, wink before they ever made the deal.

You're not making that deal unless you know, like, hey, man, when we get to the offseason, you're cool with playing for the Indiana Pacers, right? Yeah. And no question. He was cool with that and he got paid. What do you make of these Sixers stories? One, Shams put out that the interest in Paul George has waned completely. And then another story from Kyle Neubeck saying that they have absolutely no interest in Zach Levine.

The Zach Levine thing is a damn disaster for Chicago because there's such a news reports that the guy has put together 15 different offers to the likes of the Kings. and the magic and the 76ers and obviously nothing has taken place yet. And then you have on the Philly side, one of their reporters coming out saying, yeah, actually the Sixers have absolutely no interest in this. So it's like your offers are being leaked. Your desperation to get rid of him is being leaked

to the point where you already have a team that is saying, yeah, no, we don't want any part of that dude. So it's like life is leverage and this is, a fumbled I don't know if you had any leverage to get anything for Zach Levine but I know that with all of these reports the price goes down every time

every time I think that Spike Askin from the rights to Ricky Sanchez podcast, the only Sixers podcast, Spike posted he said two options and I agree with this. Spike said one they know they're not getting

him and two they don't have any intel on him leading up to this draft that's getting out there to get their attention. That like that, hey, interest is waning. We don't really know. It's like a signal. One, Spike says, is more likely I would agree that they think they're not getting him. That they've heard that they're not getting him through the Great Vine.

And then there's messaging it out there to Sixers fans like, hey, Paul George is in half an hour. Our interest is waned. This is Doc Rivers. I am pulling my name from the Phoenix. job. That type of thing. Yeah. I think it could exactly.

You're hiring Frank Bogle. I'm pulling my name. 100% I think I think it could be that as well. And then there was a report. I mean like Windhorst have talked about earlier today even before all this dropped. He's like, Paul George is eligible

to sign his contract today. Why is that not happening? Why is it not happening? Yep, exactly. With the two fingers in the air? The fingers up, yes. I think Paul George, if he doesn't sign the Clippers, the Knicks are a possibility.

I think the Warriors are a possibility. I think the Pacers would be a possibility, unlikely. I'm sure there's some other teams too, but it just seems like the Sixers are falling down the rankings for him. He would be perfect fit. Paul George would be perfect with Matt. sexy and Embedd.

I know he would. And Embed knows that too. That's why I give him the side eye on that broadcast. If he cares at all about winning, I think the Sixers are where he should go. But he might not. You have always been much higher on this podcast than I have about your boy, Brandon Ingram. It appears the Pelicans are done with the Brandon Ingram business. Yeah, it's got the jersey right over my shoulder.

All right. Kevin O'Connor's dream fit. for his dream player? Oh, I mean, it's the Sixers. I reported three weeks ago that if the Sixers don't get Paul George, Brandon Ingram could be their top target after him. And I would stand by that. I think the Sixers are the team.

That would be the best fit for Brandon Ingram to hopefully maximize his talents on the court. But for Philadelphia, he's not some sure thing either. He's had injury issues. He's not the defensive player that he should be, that he was his final year with the Lakers, that he was at times of the Pelicans. He's still unwilling as a three-point shooter. He loves the mid-range a bit too much.

So I think with Brandon Ingram, there's still concerns there. But the idea of Brandon Ingram, if he's able to maximize what he can be, maybe playing with Joel and Lombie and Tyrese Maxie and a system with more motion and movement and some creativity could help elevate this play. But there's still questions about his durability and his defense. So for Philly, it's not the optimal guy to land. But for Brennan Ingram, I can't think of a better situation. than the Sixers.

For just one season, just for like next year, or maybe even the next like two season, three seasons, right? Would you rather have Brandon Ingram or DeMarre Rosen? As Philly? Yeah. Because that's a name we talked about a lot as a guy that we loved as a fit there. That's tough. I mean, I think Damar,

I think Damar is the better guy for the next year or two, like the safer guy. But Bernie Ingram is a higher ceiling guy. And I think I can see DeMarb being that perimeter guy that closes the game like Butler did when he was with MP. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if Ingram is that perimeter guy that closes the game. And obviously, Maxie, you know, close games as well this year.

But, you know, that's kind of that wing scorer that we know when we were talking about Paul George, when we were talking about DeRosa, we talk about. Ingram. We know they need a wing. And they need a wing that can make the play off the bound to go and get him a bucket. How much does De Rosen hurt your spacing, though? And ain't more than Ingram. Yeah, I mean, Ingram's a way better catching shoot guy from three. It's just he doesn't take many of them. Never.

I mean, DeRosen's like a low percentage catching shoot three point guy is like 32% on two attempts per game. Right. I mean, like, he just doesn't shoot it that often and he doesn't make a lot of them. Ingram is, like, closer to 37, 38, 39% in his career. But, again, he only takes like two or three a game. Oh, this is why George is the much better option. No, because he fires away. He's willing to be a role player.

All right, let's get to some of the draft stuff. Did Rich Paul call you? Yeah, we talked to the phone. No, he called you after your tweet? Yeah, we talked about it. Okay, so you, let me just, for everybody that wasn't keeping up online, Jonathan Caboney had this very good article about Brony James and the draft and everything else, of which Rich Paul is quoted.

And Rich Paul even brings up teams, you know, some of the things that Kevin mentioned earlier in the show about how, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's where LeBron is going to be. LeBron doesn't care about playing with Brony. we want to find the best opportunity and fit for the development, just like we do with our other players, just like we did with Derek lively this past year, just like we do for our other players in this draft.

That's what's most important. And it's not just L.A. or bust. And it's not Phoenix or bust, you know, despite what all the chatter that's out there because Dallas really likes him and Toronto really likes him. and he was going through you know different teams and you retweeted the article

and you said it you commented on how fascinating it was how public clutch was being about brawny and teams totally fair you do not normally see this

agents are playing it very close to the vest when it comes to prospect And so for an agent to be on the record saying, this team likes my client, this team likes my client, this team likes my client. I mean, it would be like, I don't know who represents all of these guys, right? But if let's just say,

whoever represents Reed Shepard came out and said, we know Houston likes him and we know San Antonio likes him and we know Memphis likes him, you'd be like, wait, what? Like, that's crazy. So for sure, you were justified in saying, and I thought you used actually nice terminology to say, this is fascinating. This is fascinating. It is fascinating.

So Rich Paul saw that and called you because he wanted to explain kind of why I'm willing to be so upfront and talk about this stuff, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, at first, he texted because, and I said to. him, hey, I coincidentally happened to be writing about Derek lively for tomorrow. Do you want to talk about that and talk about what we're texting about? He's like, sure. So he talked on the phone after that, and he said to me, he said, I saw your comment about it being fascinating to speak publicly, but it's fascinating to see the public speaks so much about what probably in most cases is not even being talked about. And then he went on to say,

we haven't seen what some anonymous scout said about a player who he didn't even think would be drafted. And obviously we understand where it comes from. So, like, he's, rich finds it so fascinating that Brony gets all this attention because he's a projected second round pick. Maybe some people view him as an undrafted player. And yet he gets all this media attention, all of it. And it's like, well, yeah, because he's the son of LeBron James. I mean, that's obviously why. So what does he mean by we know where that?

comes from. Because he's the son of LeBron James. Okay. I'm pretty sure that somebody's out to get them or somebody's trying to make the kid look bad. I'm pretty sure when he said we understand where it comes from. He's saying because he's the son of LeBron James. Gotcha. I'm pretty sure that's what he meant.

Considering the context of everything that we were talking about. Because you know that could be taken the other way, which is we know, yeah, the anonymous coaches that are killing him, we know where that comes from. Like people that are wishing ill upon this situation. It could also be we know where that comes from. People are just doing it for clicks. That's right. And that's it.

I mean, which is true. I mean, Brony gets more attention than any other draft prospect than this year's class because he's the son of the Bronn James. Of course. I mean, and I think it's justified, though. Like, to me, it's interesting to talk about Brony for that specific reason. Because it's not like he is, it's not like this is some make-a-wish. Like, Bronte is talented.

It's just he's not ready. Three years from now, maybe he ends up being a competent, you know, NBA rotation guy. And there's also a fair argument, whether they want to accept it or not, that there's no chance he would be drafted outside of his name. I'm not saying that's wrong. And that's one of rich quotes. Well, like he said, if his name was Charles Jacobson and he was my client, I would do the same thing, identify the teams that have real interest.

Correct. But here's what I'm saying. And look, I don't want to get this twisted. I'm not saying I have a problem with that. There are, there's all manner of guys. There's a lot of politics involved in sports, bro. It's the way it goes. And I can't very well.

We don't sit around bitching about Janus's brother being on the team. He has no business being on that team. Or how about the fact that Brooke Lopez? I'm not going to bitch about this guy. Or how about the fact Brooke Lopez used that. Houston Rockets is leveraged with the bucks last year to get more money and to get them to sign Robin Lopez. It happens. Brooke Lopez.

He had enough leverage to get his brother signed. Well, and agents leverage things all the time. Absolutely. You have my $300 million client. Hey, get this too. You know, I mean, so. 100%. So, I mean, I'm not sitting around crying about the fact that LeBron James kid might not be drafted if he wasn't named.

the Bronny James because in the end he will be in a development situation and he's either going to make it or not make it on his own merits. I promise you this, he's not going to be starting for any NBA team because he's LeBron James kid. No. Right?

He's probably going to be playing G League. Right. A lot. And he's also not going to get a guaranteed first round contract. I mean, unless he does. That would be crazy. Unless he does. I mean, okay. At that point, come on.

Like, let's not get psycho. Okay. Well, I mean, at that point, it's a little wild. I mean, we'll see. I guess, well, then I would call it. Ishby is a wild man for the Phoenix Suns. Oh, that'd be so funny. It'd be crazy.

But, yeah, I mean, like, the reason, like, the stories on the record, the reason, like, I was initially writing the thing as, like, Derek Lively served as the perfect example of a player who's young, but fell into a great situation to maximize his talents as a rookie. I mean, he was awesome in the playoffs. And so, like, I was using that as an intro to talk about, well, hey, who were the perfect situation players? Like, is there a perfect situation for Reed Shepard or Donovan Klingen and Devin Carter?

So that's what the whole article is about is, like, matching prospect to team for the best player fit. And that's like some ready guys, some not so ready guys, brawny included. Like, what's the best fit for him? So I read it. It's very good. I read all of your articles. And in fact, I'm going to prove I read it because you put that little nugget in about me

when you tried to send Denny Obia to the Memphis Crislies. I saw it. Yes, I did. I was like, this bum. This bum. All right. I got to, look, we are less than a week away from the NBA draft now. And we're going to go super draft intensive on our Tuesday show.

But we told people we're going to talk about the dress. So I want to ask you about some things that really stuck out to me from your mock draft. Are you ready? Okay. Yeah. Fire away. From the mock draft that is up this week. So it was updated three days ago, the 17th.

Three days ago, yeah. So there will be changes, but that's the update now. I got you. All right. I wrote down everything that stood out to me, like where I went, whoa, what? How did Cody Williams get up to five? That's the noise. the noises that Cody Williams could be going closer to five

than anticipated. Yeah, that's the noise. Should he be going that high? I mean, I think you could argue against it, but he's 6'7 with a 7 foot one wingspan, and he's a top high school recruit, and he's a smooth ball handler, and he's got good NBA jeans.

He's the brother of Jalen Williams on the Thunder. So, I mean, I think with Cody, I get it in a draft where, you know, if you're a team that wants to take a swing, You know, that's the type of guy you want to take a swing on. He gives me a little Zaire Williams PTSD. I know what you mean. I feel you. Who was an amazing high school player, not a very good college year,

but drafted on the potential, of which we will see if it will be realized or unrealized, but certainly has not been realized up to this point. Devin Carter all the way up to eight, wow. Now, this has been a big topic of ours for many months because, he was the first guy you mentioned to me. And you remember, you said, you always come up with your guys that won't fail. I've got a guy for you. You will love Devin Carter.

I came back on the pod and I said, I absolutely love Devin Carter. And you were right. You had me pegged right. And then come to find out, I'm around his dad every other night. His father is an assistant coach for the Memphis Grizzlies, Anthony Carter. I had no idea it was A.C.'s son. I didn't even know. That's so great.

I never put it together. So you know, I love this guy. I'm a fan. I can't help but watch guys like him and think about the way you talked about Alex Caruso tonight. Oh, for sure. And go, I could foresee a circumstance where somebody's talking about this kid like that one day. The unbelievable connected piece, the winning player, everybody needs a Devin Carter. like he seems to me to be such a safe bet to be a very good pro.

Doesn't it just feel like the most easy prediction? Like that Evan Carter is going to be one of those guys as long as he's in a winning situation, right? I mean, I have him, I think on my public board right now, I have Devin Carter ranked seven. I think I got to put him higher than that. Like when the final board is out next Thursday, like I know he's 22 years old. I know what I know I get it, but I just think this guy is going to be a kick-ass player for over a decade in the NBA. And that's why he might just, he might not be a star. He might just be an outstanding eight-man rotation guy.

But he might be. He might be. He might be a guy that falls into your Derek White column type, you know, to be that you're talking about one day. Derek White can be getting paid $30 million a year, this next contract. That's right. Derek White, if he got more touches, would probably be a 20 plus point per game guy. And so Devin Carter, Providence as a junior,

averages 19 points. I mean, I don't think he could have to let the conference in rebounding, didn't he? 8.4 rebounds per game. I mean, that is outrageous. I know, as a point guard. That's a knack for the ball. That's just wanting it.

By the way, he's in the same conference as freaking Yukon. Mm-hmm. Andy won player of the year. and led the league in rebounding. This week he worked out one-on-one against Stefan Castle with San Antonio. They went one-on-one against each other. I know.

Can you imagine watching that workout? If I am Stefan Castle's agent, there's no chance I would do it. None. They did do it. I know, but that's insane. There's nothing good that can come of that. Yeah, but why would you duck that?

Because you want to help your draft. I know, I know, but it's an audition to play for Victor with Victor Wenban, yeah. I got you. It's an audition to potentially be the point guard of a dynasty. Like, that's the upside. I love the guys that are willing to do it. I just don't think there's a lot of upside in that if you're Stefan Castle. Look, that's the plight of the Devin Carter's of the world.

You know I do a show with Tony Allen every week. By the time it was done with his draft class, nobody worked out against it. Yeah, because he killed everybody. Yeah. Because he would go in and they would say, oh, and today you're going up against these other guys. Like I remember one of them was like Luke Jackson, right, who got drafted, I think of the lottery, you know, back of the day from Oregon. And you put a guy like that, it's like, you know, putting a Rottweiler out there.

Like he's projected to go at the bottom of the first round. This guy's projected to go in the lottery. just wait to you see the hunger that comes out of a guy like that, right? It's like, yeah, I don't I mean, I've seen,

I saw workouts, you know, I used to get to go to every workout years ago when the team was horrible and I saw all kinds of workouts like that. The Draymond Green, the Jay Crowders, the, you don't want any part of this.

There was a workout I went to with Crowder and Green. I don't even remember the other four guys at the workout. Because every time the ball come off the rim, it was like warfare. Warfare. I mean,

Crowder was coming off Big East player of the year. Green was coming off Big Ten player of the year. And both of them were projected to go, you know, late first, maybe second. And they ended up both going in the second round. But, I mean, the ball came off the rim. And it was like,

it was like a murder scene. every time. These guys are fighting to get drafted, right? Because I think Memphis had the 25th pick that year. And so it was just incredible to watch. Who they end up taking? Do you remember? I wrote an entire article.

This is my best prediction of all time. I wrote an entire article that with the 23th pick in the draft, the Grizzly should select Draymond Green. Oh, wow. Oh, my God. I see who they took. Oh, no. Tony wrote.

Oh, God. Yeah. Remember how, hey, hey, look, I'll spin this all back. Wow. You remember you go back all the way to the very beginning of this pod run. I said, one of the things that JJ Reddick's going to have to navigate is an organization where there's too many cooks in the kitchen. That's the kind of shit that happens over and over again.

Yes, just like that. That was just whoever was the loudest voice's opinion that night. And it might have been one guy. It might have been one guy. Might have been one guy. That's the conversation, like the agents have talked to. and the executives I've talked to, that's why Alex Saar hasn't worked out

for the Hawks and why the Hawks haven't been able to bring people in easily and why there's uncertainty there. It's because nobody knows who's actually making the final call. They don't know if it's wrestler or Quinn Slater or, you know, Landry Fields. Kyle Corver. Yeah, Kyle Corver, like, right or wrong,

if you're a Hawks fan's listening, that's the way people around the league talk about the Hawks. I don't know, who's making the final call? Who's got the juice? Teams are saying that when it comes to trades. Agents are saying that when it comes to draft picks. So I think until the Hawks really clarify things and show some organizational alignment,

that's going to be the conversation with people behind the scenes around the league. Other things in your mock draft that made me go, what? Tyler Colick all the way up to 15. I like Tyler Colick, but what are we doing? What are we doing on 15? I mean, one of the reasons why I put him at 15. 15 is because in the blurb, I say,

Colick's stock appears to be on the rise as the draft approaches. And that's true. I mean, I've heard Colick connected to teams as high as 15. Okay. I think the heat are looking for a point guard. So whether it's like a Rob Dillingham who falls or a Tyler Colick, a little bit of a reach there as a 23-year-old upperclassman, it seems like the heat are kind of the ceiling for Colick.

But, you know, DJ McConnell's really helping people these days, isn't it? is and and and and by the way tyler colic worked out for the phoenix sons today on thursday okay it was a workout with five or six people including jemir nelson junior oh i know pretty good he was part of the workout with the phoenix sons jemir nelson junior i'll be then i know aren't we old aren't we old jimier nelson junior oh i watched that look i watched damn I went to the NCAA tournament here and watched Eddie Houses, kids. Crazy.

It's nuts. Right. And then Tyler Smith and Ryan Dunn, some potential first round picks were also at that work out. Tyler Smith, I actually met him the same day when I met the Thompson's. Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. It was an overtime elite. Oh, yeah, yeah.

That's the other kid that was there, Tyler Smith. 610. Got a good looking shot. Yeah. Yeah. I like him. I don't love him. Jacobi Walter all the way down at 19 in your mock draft.

What the hell happened? I have no idea where to place him. I don't know. He's one of those guys. Wasn't he always top 10, top 12? He's one of those guys where ranges all over the place. Okay. Like I've heard him as like, can he sneak into the top seven?

I've heard him late teens. That's the case for a lot of guys in this year's class. I loved him. I had him top five entering the season to call. college season and then he didn't have a great year for Baylor. I'm like trying to fall back in love with him. I'm trying, but I mean, he's six, he's six four.

He didn't have a great year. Dick, you might be a little low on the high school phenoms in a draft like this. You know, he wasn't really a phenom. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, not him. Not him. I'm about to give you the three.

Holland, Collier, Philopowski. I think I'd bet the, I think I could bet the unders on all those. They get drafted before you have them. Okay. So I have, let's see, I have Holland in my market nine, nine to the Grizzlies, which I'll see there. Philipowski 31. Yeah, I mean, that wouldn't surprise me if the under's hit on two of them or three of them.

Yeah, they just felt a little low. In a, in a year where everything's up in the air, there's enough teams that are willing to write off college seasons and just say, hey, these guys are supposed to be the best players. Yeah, but who are you, like for Philibowski, I have him 31. I'm not even sure if that, that might be too high. Like, who are you bumping ahead of them is my question. Like, there's a lot of guys that are going to be surprised first round picks. Like there's, like, I was on Kristen Peek from Yahoo Sports.

She does great work covering high school basketball, you know, and college basketball in the draft. And she's saying to me, she's like, there's 24 guys. invited to the green room, she's like, I think, you know, a handful of them could end up waiting until day two. And I agree with her. Like, I think, like, there's going to be surprises on draft night where it's like, oh, my God, you know. Oh, for sure. This guy went 18. This guy went 10, whatever. It could start very early because it appears to me as if you probably get one and two are probably, you know, drafting. It sounds like Houston is going to move that pick three.

Maybe. There's a lot of, there's a lot of buzz there, though. And it makes sense to me that they might because, in my opinion, they may take a player a little bit later. Like, have you heard this, the Kelly Ico one about Memphis and Houston? and it would be Memphis 9 and Smart and some kind of package like that up to three and obviously you're dealing with other stuff as well. It feels a bit much.

Isn't that a bit much? Marcus Smart. They gave up two first for him last year. That's what I'm saying. No, no, no. It does. But they're floating that out there because Udoka loves Marcus Smart. Oh, yeah.

They want more veteran, you know, leadership, right, to go around their young guys. And how many times were we drafted? in the top five, right? Like, we've still got to develop. We got too many, right? They got, they got Jalen Green and they got Cam. You could have a whole starting lineup of young guys. You could have Thompson, Amman Thompson, Jalen Green, Cam Whitmore, Tari Isan, and Alperin Shengu.

That's five already. We're going to add enough. I mean, how many guys are we developing and playing at the same time? So using that as an asset in order to. you greatly improve your team, and maybe they could swing it to Brooklyn and get it into McKell Bridges dealer, whatever it may be. It just feels to me and it makes sense to me that their mode of operation would be the asset of the third pick can help us get to where we want to get in a much greater way using it as an asset rather than another young player to.

bring into the mix, right? By the way, I didn't even mention Jabari. So that's six. I didn't even put Jabari in there. So Jabari Shengoon, Whitmore, Easton, Green, Thompson. It's hard to remember all of them. That's six.

They got a lot. I know. And they're all good. Yeah. They got a lot of them. I think that's the ideal for Houston, but it's also possible that they just bring back all the young guys and take another rookie

and the young guys get better and then they fight for, you know, 47, 48 wins next season and it's like step by step. Yeah. You would not do Smart and 9 for a package that includes 3. I wouldn't. I think Marker Smart's too important to that Grizzlies. And like I still think, like,

I'm not saying Donovan Klingan's going to fall to number 9, but a lot of teams have bigs, like in the 4 to 8 range. And the only, look, I will say this, no matter what the deal, if you do deal up because Memphis is rumored a lot to deal up I would only deal up for Shepard or Klingin. My. I agree.

But at the same time, why not just stay at number nine and take Kalelewere? Might be a little high. I think you could trade down and do it. Then maybe trade down and get them. Right. And then you guys get more assets. Oh,

I'd love to have Kalea. I'd love to take a crack at that. I think to me, if I'm Memphis, I'd rather trade down than trade up. Like my order of like preferences would be one, if I'm the Grizzlies, one, trade down, two, stay put, three trade up. I think like that's my order of operations unless the price to trade up is not significant. Like if you're trading up from nine to six to get clinging instead of nine to three to get clinging, I think I'd be comfortable doing that.

Yeah. But nine to three is a big leap, man. Big leap and you're probably going to have to give up a lot. Yes. Too much. So I'd wait for clinging to. fall a little bit and then try to trade up. And here's a thing. And it's what I talked about today on my local show.

The other side of it is, now, look, it's all part of a puzzle, right? Like you're trying to figure out you need a backup point card. You need a wing. You need a center. So how are we going to do this? What's the best allocation of the money and whatever else? But the same reason that IMA Udoka covets Marcus Smart there is the same reason you should cover Marcus Smart. Which is a great veteran leader who's been in 120 playoff games in your practices, in your locker room, in your huddle. Absolutely. Everybody needs those guys, right? And so that's a big thing to replace, just having that veteran, somebody that keeps everything in line.

But it could get very interesting. The point is it could get very interesting by three. other thing that made me go what what the hell happened i was scrolling through all the way down to the mic this will be the last one i ask you because we're going to go super in-depth on tuesday with all things draft what the hell happened with the kansas kid kevin mcculler i'm scrolling down and i'm like oh my god i remember when that was such a big deal everybody thought he bailed on the season bill self had to put out that letter about it, but it was like projected lottery. At that time, everybody talked

about him like projected lottery pick Kevin McCuller. And I'm scrolling through the mock draft. I'm like, 46. He's down in brawny territory. Like, what happened? Well, here's what happened. Kevin McCuller, his first 12 games of the season, he improved the thing that he really needed to improve at. And that, shooting three. So over the first 12 games, he shot 41% from three and 83% from the free throw line. Over his final 14 games, he shot only 28% from three, down to 77% from the free throw line, which is more in line with what he's done in recent years. And his career at Kansas, a 31% guy, I'm sorry, in his career at Kansas, 31.6% from three, and his three years at Texas Tech,

29.9% so 30.9% in his career, 75.6%. percent in his free throw career, it feels like that that beginning of the season was merely a hot stretch. Now, could it have been, could it be a sign of things to come as in like finding consistency, you know, at the next level? Because 76% from the line's not horrible. But he didn't figure it out yet. And maybe he ends up a second round steal. But as a 23-year-old guy, those guys tend to fall to the second round. So I don't think 46 would be shocking necessarily. A non-shooting wing. And like maybe he figures out.

You're terming them, right? Yeah, for sure. That's the easiest way to justify. It's like, okay. He's a wing player that is not some elite level defender and he doesn't hit three. So where do you want him? Put it in a league that covers three and D, he does neither of those at an elite level. Put it this way.

I might have him too low on my board. I have him at 41. That might be way too low. But at the same time, Chris, there's a lot of guys in this year's class. It speaks to the quality and the depth of this year's draft class. Like someone like Melvin Aginsa, you know, French prospect, 6-7 with lengthened athleticism. Oh, I hate him. I'm just kidding.

I've never heard him. Because he's French, exactly. I've never heard of me. I know, but it's just like guys like that, I'm like, how do I have him rank 40? There's just a lot of guys like that where this Jewish class is deep with good quality. No, no. The only reason I'm bringing up my coach. because he was a huge college name.

Oh, he was awesome to start the year. On a premier college team. And I have not heard his name in three months since everybody accused him of quitting the season to get ready for the NBA draft. And I was like, damn, bro, quit on your team to get ready for the draft or at least that was how people took Bill Self's deal, you know, because a kid just never came back to the team. And then everybody acted all heartbroken about how he couldn't play for the team and Bill Self kind of protected him. And it's just all strange. All of it was, yeah. It was all strange.

And then I just scrolling through your mock draft and I was like, oh, my God, I forgot about this guy. What happened here? Could be a steal. Maybe he's a good cosplayer. He was. He's got some Josh Harting him. Oh, you think he's that, you think he's a dog like that? I mean.

Some, no. Some. I feel like Josh Hart would go out there with half a head. This guy was accused of. That's why I said some. Not all. Some. Meaning he's an old college player.

That's how he's like him. All right. We got a lot to draft stuff that we'll certainly be doing on Tuesday because by the time we record on Monday night, we'll just be two nights away from the NBA draft. I am so looking forward to this draft because I have no idea what the hell is going to happen. Me neither. And nobody does, right? Nobody. Nobody.

Nobody. It's been a long time since we've had one that is this unpredictable. Nobody. Like I was thinking about this when I was going to your mock. I was like, how far down could we get before you would be stunned if the guy went to the top five? And I think it's down like where Topich is, right? probably where you have him like at the back end of the lottery. But if somebody drafted Topic five,

it would knock you out of your seat. I think T. John Salon, French prospect, it wouldn't, I mean, it would just be shocking if he went four or five. But I think Salon at one spot behind Topich at 13 is where I'd be like, oh, wow. Okay, what's the next player after him? Tyler Colick, he's not going that high. In Tyler Colick went in the top five, it would be the funniest thing ever. No, that's not happening.

But I think any of the guy's 14 and above could be 05, like, five-ish, five-ish, maybe six, maybe four. Yeah, because I was going through those names. It was like Ron Holland, Dillingham, like, you could see it. On the draft show, Tate Frazier said earlier this week, he's like, I think everybody's got the wrong French guy. It's not Risa. It's not Saar, it's Salon. Like Salon is his favorite French prospects. Oh.

And Tate, I'll tell you what, talking to some execs and scouts around the league, a lot of people do prefer Salon. A lot of people do. Not a lot, so I don't want to exaggerate here. But there are Salon believers over Risa Shea and Saar. So Tate's not alone there. Okay. Look at Tate Frazier being a draft, Nick.

I know. All right. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. We'll reconfigure. convene on Monday night right before, two days before, the NBA draft, which now we are headed to the off season, and this is going to get super fun with the draft and free agency. And who knows, we already had a big trade today. Might have some more big trades before we even get to draft night.

And then certainly on draft night, given the volatility of this draft, we could have a bunch of trades as well. So this should be a very, very fun off season, to say the least. I can't wait, man. It's going to be fun. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez as always and Kevin I'll talk to you on Monday night Have a good weekend