The Mismatch - Remembering Bill Russell, Tampering Unfairness, and Your Mailbag Questions

Episode Date: August 2, 2022

Verno and KOC open the show by sharing their memories of NBA legend Bill Russell, who passed away over the weekend (01:02). As more charges of tampering continue in the NBA, the guys wonder if it’s time for the NBA to consider how they handle these charges (09:12). The guys open up the mailbag to answer your questions (15:12). Some of the topics they discuss include Zion Williamson’s impact, the best game the guys have watched live, wild trade deadline predictions for next season, the Hornets' future, and more. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Charles Holmes, the Ringer Music Show. And I'm Cole Kushner from Dysect, and Charles and I are teaming up to create Last Song Standing, a new show where we determine an artist's single best song by debating our way through their entire catalog. And for our first season, we're covering Kendrick Lamar. We're talking good kid to Pimple Butterfly, Dan, Mr. Morow, the mixtapes, the Lusies, and the features. Listen to Last Song Standing on the Dysk podcast feed only on Spotify.

Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. and joining me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Cand, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien. What's up, man? How are you doing? Not a ton of news. We are going to get to a bunch of mailbag questions today. But since we last spoke, just a few things that have happened.

The first is the biggest news. One of the giants of the game, Bill Russell, passed away over the weekend. and I must say that I've been delighted to see the retrospectives. And so many people having an awareness of Bill Russell in a way that it's unfortunate that when someone passes, that you end up getting the greatest awareness of a legend. But that's the way it works. And so as people are chronicling the life in times of Bill Russell, it's truly amazing what he accomplished, both on and off the court in a life well lived. And I've been delighted to see it all over the,

I think there's been a lot of great tributes for great reason. And we throw around legend or legendary a lot, but if there's ever anyone that fit it, it's Bill Russell. This is one of the greatest athletes to ever walk the earth. And I'm sure that you as someone growing up in the Massachusetts area from a very early age had an awareness of Bill Russell. For sure. You know, I learned about some Celtics legends a lot growing up.

I learned about Bill Russell and Larry Bird. I learned about Avlachachach and all these different types of players and all their different roles on the teams and all that. And, I mean, I think Logan Murdoch said it well on his piece that he wrote on Theringer.com about it. He said, Bill Russell's presence will live long past his physical form. And it's the truth. I mean, the impact that he made on the NBA, but also, of course, outside the NBA, with everything that he was involved in. And I think with Bill Russell doing that at the time, it really does.

It really made for an emotional day in terms of the range of tributes. You could talk about him with his basketball, you know, legendary status on the court. You could talk about everything he did with Martin Luther King. Muhammad Ali and over the course of time, Bill Russell never went away. I mean, for a short amount of time, like after he coached the Kings, he kind of was away from the NBA. But as long as I've followed the league, Bill Russell's always been around and has always been a presence around young players. And I was, I was Googling, you know, Bill Russell quotes and all that because like, that dude's full of wisdom.

I thought this was a good one that I just wanted to share with you real quick, Chris. It says, I don't have very many regrets, not because I lived a perfect life, but because life is a bunch of rolling hills, not mountains or speed bumps instead of stop signs. And so you come to a situation and it's neither good or bad. It just is. And what it means to you is what's your take on it? But the second part of the equation is what are you going to do about it? A lot of times I'm completely wrong, but all you do is back up and start over. You know, many years ago, I got to interview Bill Russell. He had written a book called Redden Me. And it was about he and Red Ourback.

And I would encourage any one of our listeners to go get that book. The book is great. It's called Red and Me. He came out with the book. And this is 2009. The reason I know is because everything that I did on our local show, my producer, John Rozier, is very tedious in terms of archiving everything we've ever done. And so he was like, do you still have that Russell interview?

Because when I, every once in a while, when I'm doing an interview, someone will ask me, who's the favorite person you've ever interviewed? And he's always on the very shortlist for me because it was one of the most shocking interviews I ever did. It just was not what I expected. He was absolutely hilarious. And it was in 2009. And I know that because I archive, I went and I found it. We replayed it on my show today.

I hadn't heard it in years, but his sense of humor, his ability to tell stories, like everything about it, I was just blown away. And at the time, it's crazy to think back that's 13 years ago, but the interview kind of gained some traction

because he revealed to me during the course of our conversation that he was a huge trekkey. And, I was blown away. He loved Star Trek and ended our interview with Live Long and Prosper. That's what he said. He ended the interview.

And throughout the entire time, everything I talked to him, he would vacillate from serious to funny. I remember at one point I asked him, you know, I'm reading this book and it just seems like the perfect coach for the perfect player at the time. and you wonder, you know, sliding doors moment, what happens if you guys don't match up? And he said, you know, I've thought about that. And he said, if I never met Red Albaugh,

I probably would have only won three or four championships and Red would have won none. And I have thought about that so many times over the years, him saying I would have won three or four championships, he would have known none. And he loved, love Red Auerbach. And it was one of those tandem, perfect player for the perfect coach, right? And so one of my all-time favorites for sure.

And just shockingly not what I expected. And so getting to see all those tributes and some of the interview clips that he's done over the years, he's one of those names that people will be bringing up until the end of time, you know, regarding the NBA, for sure. And I love it when every once or while I watch my son playing the game. And Bill Russell is absolutely awesome on 2K, which is exactly how it should be. You got Bill Ross. He's blocking everything and he's carrying every rebound, bro.

And it gives all these kids forever will know how awesome Bill Russell is. Because you don't want to go up against them in the game. No, I mean, don't shoot threes with him. But yeah, don't shoot three to them. Everything else he's doing it. Yeah, I mean, you see it all that old highlight footage of him. That dude flew up the court.

He was a, he was a modern day athlete in the 1960s. Like, he could do it all rotating on the perimeter, you know, coming to help inside, block shots. Bill Russell did it all back then. Bonafide winner, too. Won a San Francisco. Oh, yeah, won everywhere he went. Everywhere he went, he won.

Every level he won. And I love that 1969 last championship. chip the clip of him being interviewed after the game when he's just talking about it's these guys these guys in this locker room you know even even in that moment after his 11th championship brings you still talking about everybody else in that room it's pretty cool. So wild. Yeah so wild. A true winner

on and off. Rest in peace, Bill Russell. The only other thing that's happened is like the tampering stuff coming out you know the Jalen Brunson stuff with the Knicks the stuff of the 76ers B.J. Tucker, Daniel house. Hey, the Celtics signed Bruno Cabocla too and Noah Vonley. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's some news.

Yeah, well, we don't talk about Bruno. Bruno was here in Memphis for a long time. I saw him. Yeah, you had him. He was playing Summer League. I saw him out in Vegas. Buck Scott, DeMarie Carroll as an assistant coach, too. Really?

Yeah, there's a bar, DeMarre Carroll, going on Boothin'Holes or staff. Yeah, he was on that 60 win team. Yeah. Warriors gotcha Michael Green. That's another thing. Yeah, that did happen. So the tampering thing, you know, doesn't it feel like the NBA,

the NBA has to dock somebody like a second round pick when somebody calls it bitches about tampering. That's how this feels to me. Yeah, I agree. You know, they don't take you that seriously. They know that everybody talked before June 30th. Nobody's under the impression.

I mean, you got Woj and Shams unloading the clip as soon as free agency started. Like, when did you think, unless you want to believe all this to go negotiated in one minute's time, then everybody's got to be talking, recruiting each other, whatever else. And then, dude, it's amazing, like how many contract details you hear about, like, to, like, right on the button. So nobody even. We, it's weeks before the agency actually begins. Weeks. nobody even acts like it. And then it feels like

then whoever the aggrieved party is calls up, bitches, says, yo, why do we even have these rules if you guys are going to enforce them? I couldn't even get a meeting with the guy.

The agent told me you already had something set up with them. This is bogus, blah, blah, and then they say, oh, okay, and then they dock them a second round pick for it. So it's like,

little slap on the wrist. Yeah, if somebody bitches about it, then they have to like address it and then they have to do something. So here's the thing. Either get rid of all the tampering stuff or deal with it in a very serious manner.

Because the truth of the matter is, it is absolutely worth a second round pick. Let's just say the Bulls were guilty as charged of tampering with Lanzo ball. Okay, fine. I'll give you a second round pick. It was worth it to tamper. Or I got Kyle Lowry.

It was worth it. Or I got PJ Tucker and Daniel House. Okay. Take a second round pick from us, whatever it may be. But unless you're going to dock them, you know, $10 million, or you're going to take away a first round pick or something, then let's stop acting.

And it's so crazy to see the contrast in, I don't know if you saw that story this morning about the dolphins, with Sean Peyton and Tom Brady. And they said they found them to be guilty of tampering. All right? But not of tanking, right? That was the part that they weren't apparently guilty of. But they find the guy, 1.5 million.

they took away a first round pick and a third round pick. That's a lot. Immense. An immense penalty. And so if you don't want stuff like that happening, I will say on this front, the NFL's had a bad, bad week, but on this front, like, they make sure that you don't taper. And the crazy thing is the Dolphins didn't even get anything to show for it. It's not like it might have been worth it if Tom Brady was your quarterback or Sean Payton was your coach.

It would be worth it. It's absolutely not worth it when they weren't. This is like the bucks having to give up a second round pick for not getting Bogdanovich. If you get the guy, it's worth tampering in the NBA. But, I mean, there's certainly no question that it was not worth it for the Dolphins. We came up empty-handed on both the Peyton and Brady front. and now are going to lose a first round pick and a third round pick and money. So if the NBA wants to take that seriously, then they'll start penalizing.

You take it with first round pick, people would stop. So what do you think is a better path? Do you think it's better for the NBA to crack down harder with stiffer fines and penalties in the form of first round draft picks and whatnot? Or would it be better for them to be like, you know what, let's stop screwing around here because we're never going to catch every little instance of tampering

that ever happens. So we're just going to play hands off here and just not find it at all and just let it happen. I'm not dead set on what that choice should be. You're open to either path? Is that what you're saying? Like depending on what these precise rules are.

Yeah, if you just want to say, you know what, we're not even going to care about this, then fine. But if you're going to care about it, then deter people. I mean penalize it you know I mean it's kind of like if you if you had a speed limit and there's never a cop okay what do you expect or if they if you got fined five bucks and your insurance didn't go up if you got a ticket what would stop me from driving 90 except for the safety

portion of it. But really, I mean, if the penalty is that I'm going to get five bucks of my insurance isn't going to go up, so what? And that's kind of how that is. But if you're going to get a big penalty and your insurance is going to go up and it's going to cause you a bunch of problems, then maybe you slow down a little bit, right? And so I think that's either take it seriously or don't, but just choose, which one you want to do? But these headlines of Oh, you think the Nicks. And the next thing, I mean, the man's just supposed to bitch about it. Yeah.

Bro, it's his dad and like basically his godfather. He's known Leon Rose since he knew his dad. Yeah, well, that's the thing. It's like, what are you supposed to do, not allow them to talk? Yeah, they might have talked about it at Christmas dinner. You're going to ban family members, long-time friends from talking. It's impossible to police it. Impossible.

You can't. It's impossible. Yeah. But they have to put up this act like they care about it. And then they really don't care about it until somebody calls them bitches. And then somebody calls it bitches and they're like, all right. Now you get, give up a second round pick. Yeah.

Because you shouldn't have done that. And that's the end of that. All right. So we put out the bad signal last night to get some mailbag questions. Because we're going to try to do that for a summer episode and see what our listeners wanted answered. We pulled up a bunch of them. Kevin, what do we got?

All right, let's start off with this question from Michael. Michael likes Pod. Which second year player will be a household name by the end of the season? Okay, household. Household name? That's like heavy stuff. So does that mean like a Scotty Barnes

who already one rookie of the year? Or is he already a household name? Is it... What? He got a household name in his own household. What? I mean, I'm just... Well, let's define household name.

Evan Mowbly, Jalen Green. I think it's fair, but it's, well. Is it like a Moses Moody? Is it a Moses Moody coming up on the Warriors having a consistent role? Okay. I'll say this. I'll say nobody. Nobody's going to be a household name.

Not a household. So what is that? Who is a household name? John Moran. That's like, oh, there's no question. Moranth is now. The non-NBA fan can have an aware. of John Morant.

So a household name is something like a casual basketball fan. Yeah, I mean, Moran's in Spider-Man commercials. Yeah. Come on. It's a different level of fame. It's somebody of that status. So if that's the case, I'd say nobody. If that's the bar, I don't think, I don't think Kate Cunningham will be a household name yet.

But household amongst NBA fans, now I think we should broach that one. I think it would be one of those, like, Cade. Green, Barnes are giddy. That's what I'd say. One of those four, so then you have to decide. I think Cade will probably get a little overshadowed by the Ivy Dunks that will inevitably become massive highlights. Because he's not a spectacular highlight guy.

Green is. Green is a spectacular highlight guy, but that team's going to suck. And they're never going to be on national television. So that's tough. Same thing goes with Oklahoma City. They're going to be the better team and they're exciting, but that's going to be kind of a fun league pass team. So Scotty Barnes.

I don't think any of them are going to be on TV enough because Toronto won't either. You know? Scottie Barnes does have a whole country, though. It's usually highlight factories, though. That's the guys. Wouldn't you say Green's got the, he's got the best chance to have the best highlight?

The ones that, like the viral stuff, maybe go for 50-something points, maybe straddle somebody's head on a dunk. Like, that's kind of, yeah, no, Kaminga and Moody, they won't play enough. Won't play enough. Not when they're bringing back Wiggins and Green and those guys. I mean, that's going to be another year of them not, they're not going to be, they're going to be reserved players. So, yeah, I guess Green. Mowgli's not a highlight guy either. Yeah, Green or Barnes.

I think one of those makes sense for different reasons. I think just to hit, I think just to hit the level of fame. You could see Jayla Green average in a billion points too. So similar question, you know, just along those lines from Andy, he said, which team is most likely to make a Memphis-like leap next season? Could it be, could the household name be a player on a team like, Toronto? You know,

does Toronto get even better than 48 wins last year? Is it Cleveland? Are they taking a leap? Somebody like that? I think that's the... New Orleans? I think the safest bet.

Look, the Memphis type leap is really crazy to pull off because you're a play-in team that then had the second seat. Yeah. It's very unlikely for anybody to be the second seed.

But... I think you named both. Pelicans, Cleveland. Those would be the two that you could foresee a circumstance where. They, Cleveland, before they got destroyed by injuries, were around the four or five area. You know?

Another year, Darius Garland batter, Mowbly better. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Love's still there. They running it back with Rubio, who, the Rubio injury was a killer last year, and then Moby got hurt. I mean, they just got really ravaged. They had a really good record for a long time,

and then that last month and a half just went to hell in a handbasket, and then they had to play in the play-in. So you're talking about a play-in team that could make a big leap to be solidly in the mix? I think your best bets would be Pelicans in Cleveland. I'd bet on the pelicans. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. Get Zion back.

Obviously, it's a big if. But if Zion is able to stay healthy with Brandon Ingram and C.J. McCollum and some of the guys they have in that rotation, Herb Jones, I really like their rookie Dyson Daniels. He's going to be able to play right away. Larry Nance, who you know I love

Chris. Alvarado. Trey Murphy came along late in the year. The Willie Green thing looked good. Yeah, dude. I mean, like, they get a heck of a lot of talent. Never mind Valentuna's. You know how good he is. People forget out. And I think that it has gotten lost what an absolute freak Zion is when he does play. He's never been bad when he's played.

No, he's always been he's been awesome. He's never been less than amazing. Yeah, he's been incredible. It's not like he was ever even like hampered. We never even saw him be average. No. He's either playing and he's one of the best players or he's not playing. But, you know, so some of those guys, like, you know,

we're talking about some of the other ones, like the Greg Oden thing. It wasn't like Greg Oden when he played was going to get you 25 and 16. Like, he was pretty good. Yeah. When he played. He was young. He was a kid. He was still learning it.

Whereas Zion was just amazing right away. Easily the most physically imposing player we have in the league. And I don't even think it's close. I mean, I don't know what the hell you do with him. I saw him his second year when he averaged whatever it was, 25. Is this towards the end of the year when Van Gundy put the ball in his hands? Yes. Had Zion run point.

He was averaging like 29 points, six assists, six rebounds. It was absurd efficiency. He was a dominant force. I watched him come to Memphis and I turned to my buddy and I said to him at the end of the first quarter. I said, I don't even know what they're expected. There's nobody on that roster that has a. chance in hell of stopping him. Nobody. Like, he makes Dylan Brooks look tiny. He look, I mean, he's too big for your smaller guys and he's too quick for your big guys. I was like, they need to go

like sign like Aaron Donald or something. I mean, I don't know where you're going to grow somebody that can deal with this guy. So that's the thing. I am a, look, I've made my jokes like everybody else, but there's no doubt. I have full on 100% respect for that guy when he gets on the court. When he gets on the court, he is a bitch. Oh, my God. There's not, I don't, I have not seen anything like him when he's going. Not even LeBron.

I'm not kidding. There's just nothing. You got to see him in person. No, there's nothing like Zion. He looks like a football player. Yeah, you say, I mean, you say not even like LeBron, because LeBron had that perimeter feeling. He's still pro-ding, looking around.

Zion is just explosive, downhill bruising. He's the boulder, you know, going down the lane, chasing Indiana Jones. Like, you're not stopping him. You're just going to run away, get out of the way. That's it. You can probably find the whole clip if he said, I was like, it's like a freaking super LeBron.

It's like it's like. It was like something from a Marvel movie. Yeah. Just ripping the ball away from people, grabbing rebounds. I mean, I watched the game where he threw Rudy Gobert in the fourth row. Rudy Gobert. And that was preseason. I remember that first happening.

It probably happened during the regular season. But the memory, the memory in my head was preseason when he did that against Rudy Gober. Yeah. He lowered the shoulder. He lowered his shoulder and the guy just went flying. It's like this is the best rim protector there is in the league. And the thing with Zion is also when Van Gunny started putting the ball on his hands, we're going to bring it up the cord, one more pick and roll.

You saw the playmaking feel. His ability to draw another help defender, kick it out, find a teammate for a dump off inside. Zion's got some playmaking feel too. So I don't know, man. You plug him back on in this Pelican team that looked damn good after getting C.J. McCollum. you add that all up together. If biggest, the biggest is, if Zion is healthy,

they're going to be like potentially making a deep playoff run. That's the way I feel about it. You're going to have to see how it is all going to mess because those are guys that have all had the ball. Yeah, yeah, you're right. There's none of them are role players. You're right. CJ can play off ball, though.

He can. We know he can. He did with Dame. None of those four players, Herbs are role players. None of those four guys are role players. CJ Brandon, Zion, Jonas. None of them. None of them are role players.

They're all guys that take shots. There's nobody that just keeps the ball moving and doesn't need, you know, the looks. And so that's always the issue with teams that have that many guys like that. You're talking about like them falling into your turn, my turn. Right. No movements. Right.

Well, yeah. They had pretty good movement last year, though. I mean, granted, Zion changes everything. You know, if you have a presence like him, you're right. I just think if you're Willie Green, the amount of lineup combinations you have, you can play with Jonas at the five. You could play with like a Herb Jones, Zion, Larry Nance, Front Court, and be supersized, but also still have flexibility that small ball lineups can to provide.

And I don't know, I just think there's so many different combinations that they're never going to have a weak lineup. That's the way I'm thinking about that Pelicans team with what Willie Green could do on it. So you're right. Maybe if you have all four of them on the court at once, they got a lot to work out. But almost all of the lineups is going to have at least one, probably two. And that's where all the pieces are going to really start to blend together in a really nice way, I think, for them. We'll see, though.

It'll be very interesting with the Pelicans because they have to prove it. And the big if is still Zion. So even with them, I've said before how they should go. for Kevin Durantz, they should trade Ingram and picks for Kevin Durantz? Do you think they should do something like that? If Katie were open to actually going there, is that worth it?

Yes. Okay, I agree. I think it's the no-blanner. It's Kevin Durant. And I love Brennan Ingram. I love Vernon Ingram so much. I once said the Lakers should be hesitant if you get Kevin Durant.

Yes, you go get. And also, because you get to capitalize on what you're going to think is going to be a healthy Zion season. You can think about five years down the line, six years down the line. But let's just be real with Zion. Like, he's fragile. His weight, his size, with his explosiveness, the injury history.

You get the time, the time is now. That's when you're going to go forward if you're the Pelican. So if you get, if Katie says, you know what, I'll live in New Orleans from October until maybe June. I can do that. You go out there and you do it. Even though you love Bernarding. You go out, you go get Kevin Durant.

It's from our buddy, Kirk Henderson. What's the best game? you've ever seen in person? That's a good question. I think best game that I ever saw in person. I think the first one that comes to mind is Isaiah Thomas scoring 53

for the Celtics against the Wizards. Just, you know, the emotional weight of that game after losing his sister dealing with the injuries. He had a mouth injury, and of course the hip injury, for him to go out there and score the way he did.

Like, that was, that was an emotional night at TD Garden. Like, the whole, the whole game was probably, it might be the loudest that I can remember an arena getting. That arena was just absolutely crazy that night. And that fan base loved Isaiah Thomas so, so, so, so much. So for the little guy, for the little guy, shout out to Tommy Hineson to go out there and have one of the best performances of his entire life, one of the best performances I've ever seen 53 points on 33 shots on May 2nd, 2017, Celtics won 129, 119, 119 in overtime.

Isaiah Thomas. That's the best performance I've ever seen. And I feel it emotionally because of what it felt like in that building that night. I think probably the... I've got ones that probably I think about more. But maybe just in terms of competition-wise, I can't remember which year it was. Maybe it was 2011 or 2012.

Game four against the Thunder. The Grizzlies played them, and it went to triple overtime. But you very rarely see. At the end of regulation, Mike Conley hit a three. At the end of overtime, Grievous Vasquez hit a three. a three. And then

there was a tie-up by Hardin hit a three. This one they still had Hardin. And Westbrook had like 40. He was amazing. Durant had like 35. Hardin had points. Zach Randolph was great. Markisaw was great. You had Connolly hit a huge shot. Vasquez hit a huge shot. And Oklahoma City ended up winning that game. But I remember being at that game thinking, oh my God. I can't. can't believe this is happening.

Like when you see a game tying at the end of one overtime, game tying at the end of two over the, and that really did lose them the series, that whoever won that game was probably going to win that series, the game four. Because, and so it probably cost them the series, and it was a loss for Memphis, but that game was amazing, amazing. What year was that, you said? I think it was 11. Is that right? 2011, 2011 second round.

Game four. Game four. 133, 123, 123, O KC. Three overtime. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, 13, 13, 13 in the first overtime, 10, 10 in the second overtime, and 14, 4 in the final overtime. Went to training camp. next year and was talking to Lionel Hollins, who was the coach of the team, and there was a play

in that game where Hardin hits a three, where Westbrook drives in and he gets under the basket, no man's land, and he throws it all the way out to James Hardin, who it's a huge three that kept that game going. and in the huddle they had said nobody leave Hardin, nobody leave, nobody leave your man, nobody leave your man. But as Westbrook went barreling to the basket, Grievous Vasquez went barreling to the basket behind him also as everybody, and then he threw it all the way out and Harden hit the three.

And now this is some mask of stuff. Lionel had that play as the screensaver on his screen saver on his. eye back. Oh my God. No, look, and Grievous Vasquez got traded before the next season started. It's one of the best backup point guards they ever had. I think it was really he was not going to be able to look at him. Ever. They traded him before his second year. He had just hit monster playoff shots as a rookie. And they traded him.

And I know it was because of that play. There's a 100% that play. They weren't going to get over it. You made a mistake. Made a mistake. I just pulled out the play. He definitely made a mistake. He did.

He made a huge mistake. He made a mistake. Yeah, he did. I mean, he recovered to the shot. It's just too late at that point. Yep. That game was amazing, but they traded him. They traded him because of that play.

Make no mistake about that. he had a really good rookie year. It was a great pass by Westbrook, by the way. It was a great pass by Russ. Well, and that one, that one killed them because if I'm not mistaken, that's the year the Mavs won, right? Yeah.

They killed the Mavs in the regular season. They owned them. So it was like if we could, if we would have won that, then we were, they had already knocked off the number one scene in the Spurs. So they felt like, that might have been,

a chance at the finals if they could have gotten to the Mavs because it was a bad matchup for the Mavs. Are you with the Grizzlies today with the core that you have, do you ever worry it's not going to be enough because of what happened in the early 2010s? Or does this just feel like I could do brand new

clean slate and you're not even worried about the past? Okay. Yeah. Good. I'm glad you feel that way. It's been 10 years. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just curious. I'm sure for some Grizzlies fans, it's like, you know, you'll never recreate that. No. And that was a totally different. But that's what made everybody fans.

You've got to understand. Yes. They were the only franchise that was 0 and 16 in the playoffs. They had never won a playoff game. It's insane. They got swept all the other times in the 2000s. Thanks, Powell. Who were the coaches of those teams?

Was Ubi a coach for one of those? Ubi Brown and Mike Fertillo. Okay, wow. Okay. Wow. All right. Next question. This one's for.

from Stephen. Mark Al Fultz, a sleeper for most improved player next season, was among the best playmakers in a short time he played last year. From what I see, he's plus 12,500 to win it next season. So,

that is, it's not a sleeper, that's a snorer. Yeah, snore. Yeah, that's like, get your snore.

That's get your snore checks at the doctor's level snoring. There's not a sleeper, bro. He's a snorer if he's plus 12,500. But he's right about Fultz, though, that Fultz has gotten better. Or at least I showed signs of getting better, I should say. It's not like he's done it over 80 games. But what does that do for, you got Suggs, you got, Anthony?

I just think when it comes to, when it comes to Fultz's chances at most improved player, there's going to be guys who get more touches, who get more opportunities, who get bigger numbers than I think that Markell Fultz is going to be afforded to receive, which really hurts his chances. So I'm thinking, I mean, like, of the favorites, it's Brunson, Edwards, Green, Ball, Cunningham, Halibur, and those are the names that you see at the top of the odds.

Some of those guys make a little bit more sense to me. Does anybody stand out to you, Chris, is like a most improved player, or is Fultz a good, solid store? I mean, I just think that, you know, used a really high draft pick on Suggs. That's why I'd be worried about the the Fultz thing.

What about somebody? I'm sorry, you go. And when the other guys have popped off, Suggs was the one that didn't do as much, you know, as compared, and you got better at the end of the season, as compared to Giddy, as compared to Mowbly and Barnes and all those guys.

So your management's going to want to be right about Suggs. That's what I'd guess. And I know you could say, well, they could play together. But, I mean, you got Cole Anthony, too, and you got these other guys. A lot of Malsafiti. You just got Paulo Bancaro. Yeah. Absorb a ton of touches.

Right. I just don't, I see the false pick is throwing money away. Yeah. He's a snorver. He's not a sleeper. He's a snorver. Yeah. How about one outside the box idea here, Chris?

Ben Simmons. Most improved? I'm just like, what if, what if Katie and Kyrie go back? and he fully embraces the Draymond role. Screening for Kyrie Irving totally changes who he is as a player. It's ridiculous. He was all NBA. I'm just, after missing a year, I've just pulled up a list of odds. He was plus 7,500.

Desmond Bain plus 5,000, quickly plus 4,000. I'm looking at the end of the list, Chris. That's all. That's all. I don't think he'd win it. I wouldn't put a dollar on Benson. That's been all NBA. Yeah.

I don't know. I'm not sure. I think it'll probably be like a Halliburton type, somebody on a new team. A lot of times it's somebody that took like a leap to the next level. So like they gave it to Morant. Morant didn't deserve it.

And that's what I mean with Halliburne. So like with Halliburton, he gets traded midseason. Now it's his first full year with a team. He put up pretty good numbers with Indiana. I don't think he's going to be a huge star. He was like 18 and 10, but he could be the most improved, maybe.

I just don't think he's going to be a huge star. I don't know. They act, they acted. When he got traded, they acted like the Kings traded Michael Jordan. I mean, I like Haliburton, but like, I mean, if you want to bet me that Halliburton makes five All-Star games, I don't know if I'd take that bet. Well, so we're talking about 2020-3 Most Improved. A question from Joe was, what's the wildest trade deadline candidate for 2023 that isn't on the radar now? It's from Joe Moore on Twitter.

Not on the radar. How about LeBron James? Wildness? Like, you want me to get wild? Wildness would be LeBron James demands a trade. That would be the most wild of all, right? The Lakers underwhelmed. They're unwilling to attach 27 and 29 to get anybody.

They want to keep their picks. And then LeBron's like, you know what? You're not going to go all in to win a championship with me now. I'm out of here. Trade me. That would be the wildest trade-ed-line candidate, LeBron James. And that one's not insane. He's like, he's not quite on the radar right now, but it's not insane.

It's definitely, like, you can see that happening, right, Chris? Yeah. Yeah. So it's not insane. So for the Lakers. So for the Lakers, one thing though on that, for the Lakers, though, Chris, don't you think, do you think they should be giving up 27 and 29 unprotected in order to

build around LeBron now? Or should they be holding on to those knowing that LeBron has one year left on his deal and he said that he wants to play with his son in 2024? So do you want to give up 27 and 29 for possibly up to only two years of LeBron or more if you're the team that gets brawny? But I don't know.

That's a question the Lakers front office is asking themselves right now. on the reason you're having to make those decisions is because he's put you in the mess in the first place. Yes, with Russ. I mean, he put you in the mess. And I think that's a lot of what you're seeing with the lessons taken away from the Griffin thing.

You know, now with the Pelicans, I know you've been pushing for them to maybe make a play for bigger, you know, like somebody even like a Duran or something like that. But, you know, just the constant changeover and whatever and how hard that is, you know, keep on trying to bring in guys and then you have to move out guys and you got to, you know, some guys don't fit with them and some guys, you know, it's not easy. It's not easy.

And he wants his guys. And he has a say in the matter. But now you're in that mess and I understand if you're not, if you're done conceding. I do. They just signed almost every clutch creation though, too. I know. you know. I know.

Like what more do you and you want me to lose my draft fix? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Do you think they should give him up though? To get Kyrie Irving? I think they should have just kept Alex Caruso and KCP

and like they had a team that won the title. I should run it back with their guys. But now considering where they are now, though, do you think they should give up 27 and 29 to get Kyrie? No. How about Miles Turner and Buddy Heels? Think about it. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. Once the last time Kyrie Irving made a team better? Like when he was on the court, they were better than when he was off the court. And also, Kyrie isn't like actually available

until Kevin Durant were to get traded anyway. Yeah, I'm sorry. Like, Kyrie's not getting moved unless he's moves. I know he's a big name, but the Celtics and the Nets were better when he wasn't playing than when he was. And never mind how things ended. in Cleveland.

But he then talked to the team for weeks. Right. And not exactly the beacon of reliability. If I'm LeBron, I'm not totally sure I want, Karee. I might rather have Buddy Heald and Miles Turner and whatever other additional flexibility

you get from those guys in a deal. Trying to think of something that would be like unfathomable. Like you can't even see a pathway to her right now. I'll give you one. Okay. Oh, you're going to like this. Dremah. Oh.

Pops off on the pod. I've given my heart and soul, and they ain't meeting me at the table. They're not going to max him. He says he wants to max, right? It's already started. Yeah. The disrespecting.

So maybe that's not that insane. He's flirting with LeBron. You see the photos of him with LeBron all summer? They're hanging out a lot. Emotional guy. Yeah. Right? That would feel,

like this was a personal affront? You know what I mean? That'd be a cool heel turn, right? For Draymond and the pod? I mean, if there was somebody that would pull off a heel turn, couldn't you see that? Oh, that'd be great. He should consider it. That's good for contents.

Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah, there's one that I guess it is fathomable, but. you know, thinking about how they're going to have a chance to win the title and those guys together or whatever else. It's just because of that contract stuff coming out. Oh, yeah. Right?

The contract stuff coming out and it being such a thing already where it's like, I want the max. They're obviously not going to give him the max. And so that kind of like hangs over his head and it's a thing and he's answering questions about it and it's annoying. And he's got the podcast to talk about it. And he feels like he's given his life. to this franchise and they're not going to take care of him.

So I'll look elsewhere. He already talked about looking elsewhere. You know what I mean? Like it's already come up. They just won the title. He's a made man. He won his four titles there already. So he's in a different class.

Maybe it's not as crazy as I think. I said that just, you know, because it seems unfathomable with their group. But that is coming up on the horizon. How about, I mean, since you mentioned Draymond, Let's get even like really crazy here. What about Chris Paul in Phoenix with everything that happened this summer? Maybe things fall off a little bit.

They're not quite the same. LeBron's in your ear. Hey man, we got Ross and two first shot draft picks that we can still offer. He's never done that though. He's never been that guy. That's what I mean. Like it just,

it feels like it feels like it's not going to happen. Like there's a zero percent chance. He played it out in Oklahoma City and drugged them to almost a frigging home court advantage. It's not him. I just don't see it. I don't see it either. I'm just trying to get really crazy.

Yeah. I don't know. I think you picked a good one there with Dremont where it's not going to happen, but you could maybe sort of see it happening. And then the LeBron and the Lakers, we could see that happening. All right, this is from Josh. Hey, fellas, time we checked in on players you still have stock on. Oh, we'll do this before the season.

But which player islands are you keeping the lights on? We could do like a full episode on that. Yeah, we'll do a full episode. Obviously, Marvin Bagley, for me. though. I mean, I'm on Bagley Island. I had a few Detroiters, Detroitians, Detroit, what do you call what do you call someone? I tend to shy away from those. I just say Detroiters? I just like to say like people from Detroit. People from

Detroit? Yeah, that's typically what I go with. Remember my Denmarkian friends? I've heard about that until the dad die. That was good. My dead Markian friend. I tend to stay away from those because I never have any idea. So a couple of them are there with me, me and my homies from Detroit. But that's about it. That works great. Yeah. And we got to put up with John Hollinger still like banging on them all the time.

But Marvin, we got a big contract in the offseason. Fun young team. Future looks bright. I'd say Bagley and Sexton are the two that I'm still married to. Well, Sexton's already good. I know. But, I mean, he's gotten off for pennies on the dollar. That's fair.

Well, I mean, you know, I guess I'd go, I'd stay in the same locker room as you, Chris. I have no choice with the hold my stock on killing it. Got to. I got no choice. What am I going to do? Selling a loss right now? Got no choice. I'm going to hold on right now.

Do you know what's crazy? I was up in New York this past weekend and I'm in LaGuardia, which is amazing compared to what it used. I mean, it's really? It's really nice. Like a damn shopping mall now. I can't remember the last time I was there. Oh, beautiful. Anyway, I never like the law.

It takes too long to get into New York, all three of their airports. Oh, yeah. So I'm there. I go and I grab some food, and I go and sit in the corner. I'm going to charge my phone. I got about two hours at least to my flight.

I was there early. And so I go and I grab some food. I go sit down. This guy comes up to me, younger guy. His name's Ben. He's like, hey, man, are you Chris Vernon? I was like, yeah? And he's like, my name's Ben.

I listen to mismatch all the time. I'm from New York, but I live in Chicago and he starts talking to me and I'm like, when's your flight? And he tells me, I was like, just sit down. So I just made friends with this guy. I sent down for like an hour in the airport, right? We're talking about everything.

And he's like, my phone goes off every time you and Kevin fight about Frank Milakina. He said, I am the president of the Nilakina fan club. I love Frankie Smokes. I love it. And he says, going on. Yeah, let's go. I met a guy in the New York airport that's a listener of ours, and the guy says to me, I love Frank Nillikin.

This guy hasn't, he hasn't sold one cent of stock. He hasn't sold a cent. I love it. Oh, he loves you defending Nillikini, told me. So he told him. If only Frank could score. If Frank could score the ball, he'd be getting paid tens of millions of dollars, Chris.

If he could just score the ball because he could defend he knows how to pass dribbling and scoring those are the issues. Put it in the bucket, Frank. Hey, that's called,

I saw that movie one time. What was it called? Oh, yeah, the Michael Gilchrist story. Oh, you watched that? It was about this guy that could do everything but score.

It was terrible ending. His career ended after a short amount of time. He made a lot of money, though. when I talk about Kille and Hayes, Chris, it feels a lot

like Frank Milakina right now. It's because he can already defend. He's a really good defensive player, maybe even a great defensive player

for the pistons. He could pass the ball. He just can't score. I'm going to tell you this. I'm loving the fact that you are right on the edge of ditching French guys right when the best one ever's

about to come down the bike. I can't wait to you, Ray, Victor Wimbaillam. Tent. Well, how about Here's the thing. Usman Jang,

he was a French player. He had him right. He really stunk in a summer league. But I knew he was a risk. It's like I ranked him knowing it could be a whiff. It's like this is an upside pick. Of course I might be wrong.

But this coming here with Victor Wenban Yamma, you know, we talked about the Thompson twins. Scoot. We get scoot in the G League. Wemagnama's get this muscular injury right now knocking him out. He's had some injuries in the past.

I wonder if there's any chance he doesn't go number one. I saw a clip the other day come across Twitter and that bastard shot it from the logo. Oh, dude. I'm so glad. I was like, isn't it the coolest thing ever to see all these Victor Wemann Yama clips going viral right now? It's not even real. It's not.

Even if injuries are concerned, he should still be the number one pick. That's how amazing he is. I remember it's kind of a sore subject with some teased with I remember seeing Porzingas the first time in person

and I just could not believe that a guy his size could move like that This has turned up to even another level And it's Porsingas Yes

This is like if Porzengis was pulling from 30 feet away Handling the ball to Some of the turnaround jumpers that when Benyama can hit for Midranger. It's like clearly this guy has been typing Kevin Durant

into YouTube and watching clips of him for ever since he was a kid picking up a ball for the first time. Here's another one. And this is a tough one. The Hornets have clearly had the worst offseason in the league from having a coach go back on his word basically on draft day,

the awful bridges scenario, the nagging feeling that Lamello can't truly be that guy. How do they get better? I know they're down on this. Hornets fans are down on this for sure. And I do think that so many times we've talked in the past, Kevin, about how I feel about young teams and the infinite importance of veterans with those young teams.

And that is one thing that I do think that that young group has sorely missed is having strong veteran leadership with them. I do think it's a mess with the whole. I could see Clifford and Lamello button heads. You could do. Me too, for sure. And the Bridges thing is an absolute catastrophe. If we're just talking basketball, obviously, the guy's facing three felonies.

He's probably never going to get to play basketball again and shouldn't. Okay? I wouldn't sign him. So he's going to pay for his crimes, hopefully. that set aside, you had a guy that was a $100 million guy that really had a breakthrough last year, and now you're not going to have him, you know, and and nothing to show for it, because of the trouble that he got in off the court. Book night didn't do nothing last year.

You know, it was a mess. I agree with you. that was a team that had like a lot of promise just to you know really every time heyward has played they've been pretty damn good over the last couple years but they dedicated a fortune to a guy that just cannot ever stay healthy in gordon and so how do they i mean it's a tough path right now given the circumstances and kind of what they've lost uh even from last year's team and trying to figure out how to build around Lamello going forward. I'd have to really think about it probably more time than we have here, but building out around Lamello and finding what would be the best. And they were going to go get a center to, right? I know they ended up with Mark Williams in the draft, that's what they ended up with, right?

it's like, I'd build out around Lamello as much as I can, and I'd also get some damn veterans in there, get some veterans in there that will be aligned with your coach and can also kind of show these guys the ropes and what it's like to be a professional basketball player. That would be my first things I would do if you gave me the job. I think you nailed it, Chris, on The Hornets, the difficult situation that they're facing for,

a lot of different reasons and the position that they're in now. And I think the recent talks, you know, Sharm Sharania mentioned how there's other players in the Donovan Mitchell sweepstakes. And he mentioned the Hornets as a team that's had conversations for him. Danny Ains has long loved Terry Rozier. You'd expect him to go back maybe. Maybe it's a Hayward in a deal like that too. But do you think going for Donovan Mitchell should be the type of move that the Charlotte Hornets should pursue to pair him with lamella ball in the back court? Yes.

I agree. Great fit. Sensational fit. Yeah, and it would be a sensational fit. You're not hurt because he's a diminutive guard, because Lamello's got size. Yep, 6.7. You've got to get Lamello dedicated,

but he's also the kind of guy that I want my other players to look up to. Donovan Mitchell, by all accounts, is an outstanding individual. Hard worker, even though it doesn't know of a show on defense. I still look back at him when he was in college, he grinded on defense.

I still think that's somewhere in him. I don't know what happened, but you would hope he would be able to recover it. Yep. So, yeah, I think that would be my first. All right, last one we'll do. Are the Orlando Magic the most exciting young core in the league? Not including already proven teams.

Two six, ten, self-creating initiators seems like a glimpse into the future. All right. Orlando. So, look, me, Kevin are distance fans. We got, no, that, I think Orlando will be third on my random league past night. I think Detroit, so I love Ivy and Duren, who they've got. I've got the stock in Bagley.

I love Cade. I like Sadiq Bay. Don't forget, Killian. I root for Killian. Yeah, for Kevin, sake. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate that.

I think, so a couple years ago, it was always Charlotte, interestingly enough, that I watched, you know, in that kind of six o'clock central window. I think it'll be Pistons, Oak City, Orlando. I think it'd be in that order. I think that would be the order. And I think that's the young course. And that's because of Gideon Chet, Gideon Chet, and Chet's going to be must-c-cTV, too. He's just so damn intriguing to me. Somebody else asked us about rookie of the year,

and I do think Paolo is going to win that, so I am going to go out of my way to watch Palo a lot. I love Palo. I really like Suggs coming out, and so I'll root for his success, and I think people have gotten down on him and just give him time, because I think he's a player.

but I don't really care that much about I mean I think if you're an Orlando fan you care about Franz you care about Fultz you care about some of the other guys but they're not as fun to me as like Gideon Holmgren

Yeah I mean Gideon Holmgren have already shown some of that playmaking chemistry however though Chris I think there's a chance depending on how the system looks with the magic how they're utilizing Ben Carroll, that could be pretty exciting to watch. Let me say this. They got a lot of passers on that Magic

roster. I'm going to make Magic fans feel better. I think they'll be, they probably got the best chance to be the best of those three. Team-wise. Yeah, because the roster, the roster is a better team. They got talent. Yeah, they'll probably be the better team

than the others. And oh, I forgot they got Bolt Bowl. Yeah, probably, and they And they brought back your boy, Bamba. If they go Twin Towers, if they go Twin Towers, yeah, I mean,

but I think Big Harrow will win rookie of the year. So I do think they're up there. I just think I like Detroit's is more fun. And I'd say Detroit, Oak City, Orlando. It's off the top of my head. Is there anybody I'm missing? I like the Houston thing, I like Jabari and Jalen.

I mean, it will be fun. They got exciting guys. I'll say this. The crappy teams have got some fun stuff to watch. A lot of talent. It's not just like the top techs either. It's going to be a really good league pass year

because those are the teams that'll never get to be on national TV, but it'll be good league pass year for watching the young players, for sure. I don't think there's any... Is there any other young team that I... Young Corps? that has not been successful yet that I missed.

Oh, let me give you one more thing now that, because I just looked at the standings to go back. Let me give you a sleeper that is a snorer, maybe. You ready for this? Yeah, let's do it. So back to our could make a leap. What about the Kings? That's a snorer.

But who knows? That King and Murray looked like the freaking. What if Fox keeps doing what he did That's the best. And I like Davy on. They're just so damn mismanaged. I can't trust them. But they got players too.

Until they prove that you can trust. What I'm saying is could this be the start of where you begin to trust them? Do you like what they have right now? They've got a lot better players than their like you look up and down their roster there's a lot more guys on that team that I would want and they're kind of

they would be viewed in the same class let me just say as the wizards right I look at the wizard's roster and there ain't nothing I care about and I look at the Kings roster and I take seven eight guys off that team

like at least like they got to at least seven or eight guys that are like absolutely legitimate NBA players that I would have into. Even a Harrison Barnes of Sean Holmes, our guy, a Malif Monk,

right? You take that guy on your team. Yes, Davion, Deeran, Sabonis, Kegan Murray. Like, they don't have I think they're kind of viewed on that same level as somebody like the Wizards, but I look at those two

rosters and they couldn't be more different to me. West is well it's not easy to navigate but they could they could be a lot better this year. And they got a real coach in there and Brown it's been 17

friggin years, bro. They got to win something. I'm rooting for the Kings to win something. Well, who wouldn't? Yeah. I mean it's no fun to root against them. I mean, I guess I guess if you hate you.

The kids have been a great 17 years. But at some point, you just feel mad. Right. Come on. I want these guys. I want my guy Cole from Dysack to have one. Oh, that'd be nice. Right.

That'd be great. Poor guy. Lives and dies are the team that never pays it off. We got one more, one more question, Chris, from Julius. Are you guys ever going to post the full video podcast on YouTube or Spotify? I think we should, Chris. Oh, like we have control of that.

Would it be sick next season, though, if we were able to do that? Like on Spotify, the full pod? That'd be cool. I don't think that you were tagged on the email that we got back. At one point, you sent an email about that and, like, C-Ced and I was on it, and then I guess they took your C-C out of it. But Spotify sent it back, and they said, you guys are entirely too ugly. And so, I mean, it had hurt my feelings.

And I think they knew it would hurt my feelings less than you. so they took you out of the email but that's what we were told they told us we were too ugly for YouTube I've been ghosted I've been told the honest truth that I can handle the truth

it's all the same it's really me it's look let's be fair folks it's obviously me because Kevin's got the void which is a friggin video thing so it's obviously me

so for those of you that want me gone look, they'd probably get on video if I wasn't here. It is worth noting for the listeners, you know, who don't follow on social. We do, our social team does post some clips online. Sometimes I post some of my feed and on the Ringers YouTube page as well. Like we do have like 10, you know, 8 to 15 minute, you know, breakouts from the podcast that are on the YouTube page.

But posting the full podcast, I think if we were to ever do that, that would be on the Spotify app. Hopefully we can make that happen someday. That'd be sick. all right we're going to negotiate that thank you to our executive producer jesse lopez as always and kevin i'll talk to you next week have a going over way