The Mismatch - Scouting Prospects and the NBA Landscape With "the Machine," John Hollinger

Episode Date: March 15, 2022

Verno and KOC begin the show by discussing KAT’s 60-point performance, Draymond Green’s return, and Kevin Garnett’s jersey retirement (01:15). They next bring on former VP of basketball operations for the Memphis Grizzlies and current NBA writer for The Athletic, John Hollinger. They discuss the top prospects in the ACC, how he views prospects differently, and why the conference games are more important when it comes to scouting (27:28). John was at the Nets-Knicks game over the weekend and shares his experience watching Kevin Durant drop 53 (55:08) before discussing the top teams in each conference (01:01:10). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Guest: John Hollinger Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer Gambling Show is here to help you place your bets on the biggest sports around the world. Join NFL analyst Warren Sharp on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. Each week, they'll cover everything from spreads, game totals, and parlays to player props, futures, post-game reactions, and more. Check out the Ringer Gambling Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Misfatch. I'm Chris Vernon. And join to me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin

Obama, Kevin O Concert, Kevin O Climler, Kevin O'Colm, Kevin O'Candee, Kevin O'Candibus. Kevin O'Hourne. Burno! How you doing, man? What's going on? Everything's great. Super excited. Today, we are going to be joined by an old friend John Hollinger.

Yeah. Now writes for the athletic. So he's going to join us a little bit later in the show. We're going to have a long conversation with him about college prospects, the NBA now, analytics, et cetera, et cetera. But we've got some news to get to. Last night, I turned on the Minnesota Timberwolves game. In the third quarter, I turned on the Timberwolves of the Spurt.

Wow. Because it was the Denver-Filly game had finished. It was the first quarter of the Milwaukee, Utah game. And so I was like, all right, what's later in the game on some of these? And so flipped on that Minnesota game. And as I tune it in, the announcers are talking about, oh, this quarter has a chance to be super special. And Towns just goes absolutely nuclear. 32 points in the quarter.

And then they're saying he's got, he has tied the franchise record. for points. So, of course, what do I do? I run straight and I look it up. I'm like, who holds the Minnesota franchise record? You're a stats guy, Chris. You just, you love numbers. And you know who it was?

Carl Towns. He holds the record with 56. And I'm thinking, man, if he goes for 14 in the fourth, this guy's going to put 70 up. And how about that? That'd be two college teammates with him and Devin Booker, yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah.

And so they would have a and I figured he had a chance at it. Of course, he doesn't start before it. But he ends up coming in and he ends up with 60 last night. Yeah, he just

completely obliterated the Spurs, man. Like he did everything. Like if he showed the whole bag, we saw a town, pick and pop for threes. We saw him attacking close-outs. We saw him isoing. We saw him posting up.

The acre pertle head. Naked Purtle's a good defender. He had no chance in hell. And stop a carloving town's last night's game. Dude, all season long, I've been saying, I want to see what happens when cats get, cat gets 20 to 25 shots a night. I want to see what happens when he gets it consistently.

He hasn't needed to do that for the wolves to start winning games. He's actually shooting less than he was, at certain points of his career in certain points this season. But to see it last night, a one-off of Carl Anthony Towns just being fed, my goodness, dude, I want to see it more often. I really believe, I'm not saying he can score 60 on a more regular basis,

but I really believe we can see 40 bombs from Kat on a more regular basis if they really wanted to feed him the ball and feature him against defenses with advantageous matchups. Because, dude, like, didn't it look? like the stuff that we see from him all the time, Chris? Just more of it. Yeah, and that is the case. I'm going to give you a way

that that can happen. And the answer is, play the spurs. They're not a terrible team. You know? No, they're not. They're not terrible, right? The Spurs have talent. DeJante Murray, Kelden Johnson, Pertil's a good player.

Vassell, they have good players. Not terrible. And yet, when you look at some of the games that have happened against them this season, it is absolutely absurd. You had that one last night that was 60, which was towns. You and I came on here a few weeks ago, and I watched John Morant drop 52 against them in a game. Wasn't, was it Tatum earlier this year? That was the, no, who was it?

was the other one. There was somebody else that went monstrous. I mean, they've given, they've given up a lot of big game. They've given up some big, big numbers this year. And by the way, that was the franchise scoring record for Minnesota in a regular season game last night. So they hit that too. Not only did towns have the 60. They also set their franchise record with 140 something or whatever they ended up with. I mean, the spurs give up some big, big numbers,

big numbers. And so, yeah, I guess if there is a team that is going to, uh, to have somebody that's going to go crazy, uh, the spurs are a good opponent to be matched up against for sure.

100%. Yeah, you're right. There, there's been a number of big performances against them and what of that's coincidence or scheme or whatever. Um, remains to be seen, but with Catman.

I don't know, Chris. I wonder, are we going to see games like this one? Not that he'll score 60, but are we going to see games like this one where he gets 30 shots in the playoffs? I wonder if we will see that in the plan or a first round series because with Cat, dude,

the talent level on offense is obscene. It's obscene what he can do with the ball. And I just, I feel, like for a long time it's been clear that he's capable of nights like this he just hasn't had many opportunities had the 56 point night like you said but i just wonder if in a playoff setting we'll see him get forced to the ball more often uh just so talented get this out of him he is dude he's crazy he's one of the greatest shooters you know 40 plus percent uh for years now at seven

feet tall uh he can shoot off screens pick and pop like he can he can he can do it all man he can attack the at two off the bounce. He's an absurd offensive talent. It's a matter of the usage. Well, it's also a matter, and we have seen his teammates say this. There was that quote earlier with Anthony Edwards. It's not

just like, hey, his teammates don't pass in the ball. It's that level of aggression. Exactly. It is that. Partially within with Carl Anthony Town. I am going to, he has the ability to dominate. He doesn't always have the drive to dominate.

And that's when people can get frustrated. It's like, bro, you could, you could be killing people on a regular basis. But he is just so immensely doubt that it was funny. When I looked up, you know, they said he has tied the franchise high. And it's in the third quarter. I'm like, who is the franchise high? I was like, okay, gee, is it? I don't, I don't know.

And it's towns, right? And then you go look up their list. Here is a unbelievable barbed. There are, including towns, there are, One, two, three, four other players. So there's five guys in Timberwolves history that have scored 50 points. This is the greatest bar bet. The greatest.

Four other Timberwolves besides town have scored 50 in a game. They are. Mo Williams. I don't even remember Mo Williams in the Timberwolves' jersey. Corey Brewer. Yeah, I was going to say Corey Brewer was with Minnesota, right? Yeah, well, I'd have that one.

Kevin Love. Wow, okay. Kevin Love. And Derek Rose. Wow. How about that? That's a great barbett. That's unbelievable.

That's a great bar bet. Hey, Anthony Edwards had 48 against Golden State. Hmm. And Wiggins had a 47, and the most Garnett ever scored in the game was 47. Wally Zerbiak, 44.

Wally Zerbiak. Yep. Yep. Unbelievable, though. I mean, what a list. What a list. Towns, Mo Williams, Corey Brewer,

Kevin loved Derek Rose. I saw Kendrick Perkins tweeted yesterday during the game. He said, the wolves are making the playoffs. That Patrick Beverly leadership got Towns playing like an MVP candidate.

Did you see the Terrence Ross thing with the magic? Terrence Ross was on Twitch over the weekend and he told a story about Patrick Beverly. So I guess during the Magic Wolf's game, Mo Bamba, kind of like, you know, hit Beverly like in the chin or something with, you know, while going for a rebound is an accidental thing. And Beverly had to go to the hospital or something like that to get checked out. and after the game, Beverly gone into the player's parking garage and was knocking on Obama's window a demanding an apology

for something. And, Mr. Ross is on Twitch. He's like, usually after three hours, guys cool down. But not Beverly. He's knocking on his window

in the player's garage. Demanding an apology? Yeah. For an accidental, you know, elbow to the chin or something like that. I need to know what kind of car Bamba drives. Patrick Beverly knows.

I'll tell you this, that thing's got to be custom. How do you... Hopefully a Tesla. Hopefully a Tesla. Man, I don't know how you find a car that could fit you if you're Mo Bamba. That's tough. That is, you got like sit in the back seat. That's Tesla S plus Bly.

You just take out the front seat. You just sit in the back, I guess, to drive the damn thing. This is you have to do. I had flipped over to that team. He Wolves game after watching the Nuggets and the Sixers. And what became in this MVP matchup between M.B. and Yokic, the Bones Highland Show. I mean, there's been so much attention paid to so many young players and rookies in the league. And this was his night on a huge stage with the fourth quarter that he,

had helped lead them back to victory. I don't think that that was what necessarily we bargained for when we were tuning in that game. But we've talked about if the Nuggets get their guys back and kind of what Yokic, the die that's been cast for him and who he's been playing with. But, you know, it's a big game. A big, big game against that Philly team on the road. On ESPN, lights are bright, and that kid showed up big time. And I think that's promising when you think about games where the stakes are going to get higher and higher as this season winds to an end and then obviously in the playoffs.

Last night, someone, Angelo tweeted me, if you're looking for next year's Tyrese Maxie, it's Bones Highlands. What do you think about that, Chris? I think that is a fair. That's a smart thought. they're always slow developing guys. Denver. They are. All these guys.

Not just injury guys. They always kind of bring them along a little bit slower than some of the other. They don't just throw them into the fire. And Maxie would, you know, there were people that argued he should have been on the floor more last year. But I could totally see that with Highland. That's a talented guy, man. Talented guy, good head on his shoulders. Yeah, he's a, he's a smart.

kid works hard. It's like it's all positive stuff that you hear about him. Very outgoing. He was, he's just been very inefficient as a score all season long for Denver coming off their bench. But like I think in recent weeks he had a good game even before, but the game before that Sixers game against the Raptors. He had a good performance. He's had a couple of great nights in the last couple of weeks. It's just a matter of stringing it together right now. And ultimately though, for Denver, if you do get Jamal Mari back, if you do get Michael Porter, back, obviously that means a lesser role for a guy like Bones Highland. But the fact that you know that he can have some of these big nights where he's hitting

these big shots, creating offense for himself and for others. I mean, having a guy like that deep on your bench when you are at full strength, I mean, what a nice X factor to have, never mind a young piece for the future too. I think it's easy to bet on because they've been good at talent evaluation there. Kids got a good head on his shoulders. He's got the athleticism. he feels to me like the kind of kid that'll get in the gym and shoot

10,000 shots a day over the summer. And it's not an easy team necessarily to fit into, you know? Everything runs through the center. In some ways. Yeah, no. In some ways, that makes it easier though.

It is easier if you are a docked-down shooter. Or if you're smart. Yeah. If you're like an intelligent player who knows how to cut and move and those angles. That's very difficult for a rookie. You don't know the NBA

game yet. You know, you don't know how to play. You're just going through it. You know? Yeah, I don't know. I think in some ways, playing with Yokic is probably the easiest thing to do, but it's also simultaneously the hardest thing to do. Playing with somebody who is the centerpiece of your offense,

facilitating the way he does, especially from the elbows and the wings. I don't know. I think I lean towards Yokic just makes it easier for everybody, which is why over the years, He's had great, like, two-man game pairings with Gary Harris, Jamal Murray, Bose Islands, Aaron Gordon, Michael Porter Jr. Like, he's had so many great, you know, partners, you know,

the pick and roll, dribble, handoff actions over the years that, I mean, that's partially the guy's fitting with him. And what they're doing, but it's partially just Yokic makes your life so much easier because he's such a brilliant playmaker and decision maker. Yeah, but I mean, those guys that have had the most success with him are guys that could shoot. So Highlands got to be able to shoot And so it's just a bank on You got to be able to shoot different styles

Like Gordon Gordon's not a knockdown shooter He's more of that cutter The guy who's rolling and they have amazing chemistry It is very average stats He has replacement level stats Aaron Gordon Yeah if you gave anybody His minutes you could get those numbers

I mean numbers aren't everything though Well I'm just telling you you could You can get those numbers from anybody That you played those amount of minutes That would be very common Will Barton is probably the best example. Who slashes more. But he knocked down some good shot last night, too.

One crazy three, for goodness sakes at the end of the shotgun. But yeah, the Bones Highland night. I don't know if he can be maxy, but I think it's worth betting on guys that have talent and that have good head on their shoulders. And if he gets in the gym and becomes a guy that can knock down, you know, high 30s, mid to high 30s, threes, now he's a player.

By the Monthe Morris, another one, too. Great chemistry with Yokic. He can shoot, too. I mean, he's got to knock down some open threes. You get a lot of them. You get a lot of them playing with that guy, for sure. It was absolutely fantastic. Other things that went on since we last spoke,

those were two of the big ones that went on last night. Another big one was the Dremond return. Now, they didn't play a great opponent, but I think he was plus 24, an immediate impact. And you saw, like, the ball's bouncing around now. You asked me last week, does Draymond change everything? And my answer was, yes, changed everything. The big thing is, he looked fine. He wasn't out there hobbling around or anything.

He looked 100% in it? Yeah. And now they've got some time, you know, to get this thing meldial. it back how it used to be with him, Steph and Clay, and then, you know, the ancillary parts around those guys, but kind of getting a groove before they have to play playoff basketball. So it's good to see him back on the court, and certainly they are a much more formidable team than they've needed him. They've needed him badly, but he came back and looked like Draymond Green.

And over the weekend, too, Wiseman has played two games, one against the Gilles. League Ignite that I watched for some of their prospect I said Daniels, Jane and Hardy, but also for Wiseman, why's been had some good moments, you know, still hands, you know, still has, you know, Bobbles and some passes, G League

defense is nowhere near the level of what he's going to be facing in the NBA, but I mean, if you're a Warriors fan, I'm watching that game, I'm like, hey, give us five to ten minutes in an important game where, you know, someone's in foul trouble, throw them out there as a nice curveball with the

types of lineups, the Warriors typically run. Wiseman's a nice variable to have on your bench. And with Golden State, I look at that team with a healthy Dremont. Like, they can play so many different guys. Like, their playoff rotation, if they're trimming down to seven, eight players, there's a lot of different sixth, seventh, and eighth guys that they can decide to use depending on the situation in the opponent. And you think about the people talk about, you know, versatility with players, switching

screens doing different things on offense, but having versatility as a coach is also going to be of the utmost importance. And the Golden State Warriors are shaping up to have a heck of a lot of that come playoff time. Yeah. And the Weiser thing, if he could just give you, like you were saying, five, ten minutes, some fouls, just buy you some time without getting... And not every night. Yeah, without getting slaughtered. It's a lot of heat off of Looney. It's a lot of heat off of Dremont. Yeah. And not every night. Like, it might only be one series. It might be, like, let's say you're facing Denver. If you're facing Denver, that might be the series you need WISner for five minutes a game, 10 minutes a game. But if you're facing, I don't know, clippers and they're small ball,

maybe you're not using Wives in that series. But having those options is going to be a great benefit to Steve Kerr. Yeah. Or maybe even on the small ball, you are, because he could fly up and down the court and then, you know, that's where he could really get every rebound. Sure. You know, That's a great point. You could zig and zag. You could do that. It's kind of the opposite. Like you mentioned that the Denver Philly game,

it's the opposite for Doc Rivers. For Doc Rivers and the Sixers, you have such a shallow bench. You have so few options that you can turn to. Doc Rivers after the game last night, he's like, DJ's been great. DeAndre Jordan's been great. Oh, my God.

He has not been great at all. You get George's Beang taking the two big shots down the stretch of the game. There's just not a lot of options for Doc Rivers. And if anything's going to kill Philly aside from injury to Hardin or a B, the lack of depth is going to be the thing that could be the death of them

come close season time. Unlike, I think, Golden State and some of these other deeper team. Miami, even Miami number one in the east, despite having so many guys out over the course of the year, speaks to their amount of depth. I wonder how much depth, you know, will matter, come post season time. But that is a big, like, that's a big moment.

You know, they were saying it felt like a playoff game last night. I'm glad he brought up the Yang thing, which is hilarious. But if it's not Yang, it's Danny Green when he's healthy. And that is the difference, right? Like, there's somebody that is going to not have the attention. And then you think about Miami, you know, that may be Duncan Robinson. That may be Tyler Hero. That may be somebody.

Somebody, like somebody. That you're worried can bury it. Or not at the side of the backboard. Possibly. that'd be nice don't get the side of the package two other things from the weekend the Kyrie thing was hilarious

not able to play in the game and then so he buys court side tickets I mean I got to give him credit it's a funny it's funny to buy port side tickets I guess Malika Andrews said

that he has season tickets like he already had them his family typically sits in those seats that's like Malika sitting there to expose the hypocrisy of it all, though. I can sit here. Courtside without a mask,

and yet I cannot play in the game, is, I mean, that's outrageous. Yeah, and I think it's also possible to be super pro, get vaccinated, which I am, I'm boosted. I was boosted as soon as I can in December. I'm very happy, but also you can feel that way, but also say these rules are ridiculous. Like, it is such a joke.

He can sit courtside without a mask, but he can't play in the game. He can't go in the locker room, but he can be with the team, you know, and other places up close. It just, it doesn't make any sense at all. It makes zero sense. At this point, like, the rule isn't about public health.

I don't know what it's about. Him sitting courtside without a mask and that being okay. It doesn't make sense. It is. It makes zero sense at all. And I'll tell you what, like with the Nets, I wonder how much of them are like, yes, we want you to come into the locker room

and yes, we'll take that fine because we want to draw attention to this absurd rule. I wonder how much of it is that. Guarantee. To shine a spotlight on it. Because if they don't get fined that press release of $50,000, $50,000 fine because he went into the locker room. I don't know.

I wonder how much of it relates to that because it just saw all, even the LeBron tweet, everything else, it all just seems like something where it's like trying to draw attention to it, as they should, because it's ridiculous.

Last two things. Kevin Garnett. You could just get vaccinated too, though. So we'll see what happens. You never know. Kevin Garnett's Jersey, hanging in the rafters in Boston now. It's a big weekend.

That was such a beautiful moment. And how about Ray Allen? It's all okay. Yeah, that was great. It's so cool. As a hardcore Pink Floyd fan, it does, it does bother me that Roger Waters and David Gilmore have never been able to, to bury it. They've never been able to, after the Pink Floyd breakup in the 1980s,

they had one reunion, the two different quick reunions, but never able to stop taking shots at each other. They're like little kids the way those two are, and they're in their 70s. And I always think, they used to think to myself, like, damn, the team I grew up most loving, like KG, Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, those guys are going to be. doing the same thing, just like Gilmore and Waters on their older. So to see them embrace and to just beat together during the NBA 75, then, you know, with the reunion there, I don't know. It just made me happy, though, because a lot of people don't forgive.

And I'm glad that they were able to because those guys, they had so many great moments together. To me, when I think about, you know, winning basketball and the qualities that I admire and the things that I, really just the life qualities I admire. from sports is I think the sacrifice that that team had right out of the gates, how they embrace their roles. And boot to, Kevin. They call it a boot too. Exactly. Just the way in which they bought into each other in the collective of that 0708 Celtics

team was so very special compared to when there's so much friction with a lot of other teams. And for Kevin Garnett to have his jersey retired playing so few years for the Celtics, I think it is easily the right decision there because of the fact that everybody who went up there with Grousebeck, Mike Gorman, Paul Pierce, Brian Scaliburney, everybody who spoke about KG they said thank you for changing the culture there.

And to me, that had a lasting effect of what he did for the Celtics. Never mind the fact that he was just my first time going to lead to an NBA game was Celtics Timberwolves, Chris, when I was like nine years old. So I loved Kevin Garnett. Kevin Garnett's one of the reasons why I really fell in love with basketball because KG scored like 25 points that night.

He was the tallest person I had ever seen. He was screaming. He was hitting every jump shot because, you know, at the time, there weren't a lot of big shooting. KG was draining mid-range jumper after mid-range jumper. And I was like, wow, like little nine-year-old me watching that game with my dad. And, you know, a couple, you know, four or five, six, seven years later when the Celtics actually got them.

We were in New Hampshire, I think, at the time. And there was the same day the Red Sox traded for Eric Gagne. It was a big day for Boston sports. Red Sox get a great closer in Gagne, granted it didn't work out. Celtics get Kevin Garnett. And it was just so exciting. And especially after losing 18 games in a row, to me, I look back at that Celtics team, and this is something for a fan of every team.

It can change fast. It can change really fast. You can go from losing 18 in a row to compete. for a championship. You see this with Memphis. The team goes from like, to suddenly you have a megastar and John Moran. It can change really fast.

You're just going to get really lucky and be ready for an opportunity that may reveal itself like it did with KG being available, like it does with guys becoming available in trade. So I don't know, man. It brought back a lot of great memories watching games with my dad, seeing KG get his number five retired. And a big congratulations to KG and also a big thank you for me as well. awesome ceremony to say the least.

We are going to talk to John Hollinger from The Athletic. We'll do it after these words. All right, Kemp, we've got a very special guest joining us today on the show. He's the former vice president of the Grizzlies. He is also the inventor of P-E-R. He now is a writer for The Athletic. He has gone back to his roots and writing once again. He hosts podcast.

He writes columns. He is a writer. is John Holliger. Thanks for joining us, John. I think this is the first time you've introduced me without using the letters, AKA. I think that's true, too. It's only one per show, Chris. No, this is true. It was a.k.a. The machine. That's what we always used to call him in Memphis, Kevin, because once upon a time, the Grizzlies traded Rudy Gay. And when they traded Rudy they attained Tashon Prince. They ended up, the story ends with them going

to the Western Conference finals. But at the time, people went absolutely ballistic because they traded Rudy Gay. And I got this incredible tweet. I'll try to go back and find it to promote this podcast. But it was,

this has nothing to do with basketball. And then it was on and on. And then it said they traded Rudy Gay because of a machine, a damn machine. And so what do you say is that they just trust

whatever the computer says and therefore, I think like the ESPN trade machine had it as like plus two wins or something, you know? So that's where this that's where this came from, I think. So from that point on

on the radio, I started calling John Holliger the machine. And so if people would ask why they made certain moves, I said, machine the machine said it was the right thing to do it just spat it out

yeah they didn't have that much discussion about it they asked the machine the machine the machine says Xavier Mumford and then the next thing you know he's on your team yeah

I love Jordan Adams too oh man I really was a fan he had honestly he got other fans of because we got calls about him. Like it's when you draft a guy and nobody else in the league calls about him

and then like the next six months, that's when you're like, oh, maybe a little high on our board. All right. Don't know him to meet with Tyrell Terry. Yeah, there you go.

You all have them. I've been watching him this season, though, Ken. He's playing for the Memphis hustle. Yeah. He's down here. All right, so speaking of draft prospects, let's start with that because over the weekend, you got to see the Big East tournament and the ACC tournament. What stood out the most from watching those tournaments? Because people are going to listen to this. And I think it could be instructive not only towards looking at prospects, but also maybe your thoughts when people are filling out their brackets, teams, players that really stood out to you from this. The biggest thing, I mean, the academic calendar at Virginia is just so grueling that you could just tell that it just took them down a notch in this tournament, unfortunately.

They scored 13 points in the first half against North Carolina, who isn't even good on defense. At least you were there as a media member. You weren't wearing your Virginia jersey in the crowd, were you? I wasn't because I actually had it saved for the semis. I was like, I didn't want to bust it out too early. Ended up staying in the hotel closet. So anyway, I digress. ACC not as talented as it used to be, certainly.

But Duke has five draftable players. So that was definitely the focus. Bankero, definitely a top four pick. I think he's pretty much a known quantity nationally at this point, right? Got a good look at AJ Griffin, too, who's interesting physically. Like, he can really shoot, even though it's kind of a weird looking shot. It's a set shot and his feet are really wide apart. But he, I mean, he knocks that thing down.

Not super elusive, like off the dribble or whatnot. But like a good body, like it could almost play like a small ball four at times, I think. Like there are a few times they tried to, guys tried to back him down and like they just got nowhere against him. So I think I think he's, you know, he's definitely a lottery pick. And then Wendell Moore Jr., I thought was a guy was really interesting to me that I was trying to get a feel for. I was, I wrote about him over the weekend because he's been kind of up and down at Duke. He's a junior now. But he's really talented.

He's got long arms. He can jump. pretty decent passer. I think he's a guy that a lot of teams in the 20s are going to be taking a long look at. Yeah, Wendell Moore's type of guy that has that 3 and B potential as you wrote about on the athletic

with A.J. Griffin, I mean, I'm curious, he said Paulo Bancaro, top four, a lot of people consider him top three. So the two-part question here would be, who is that other guy that could bump Bencaro down to four rather than the top three? And with A.J. Griffin, does he have a chance to propel himself

into that conversation as well? I'll take the low-hanging fruit first. I can't see Griffin with his lack of shot creation getting into that top before. I just don't think there's enough ceiling there. I think he projects probably more as a role player than like a big star kind of guy. He looks like Jimmy Butler when he dribbles at the college level sometimes.

Do you see that in him at all? Meaning like there's the move. He's charging a lot for coffee while he dribbles? I mean, like you said, he's not a dynamic shot creator. Jimmy Butler is more like bullying opponents sometimes. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, he's so then, but Jimmy Butler could get into a pull-up and rise up over everyone. Like I just don't,

Griffin had a lot of trouble like just getting to pull-ups and turnarounds and stuff. Like anything off the dribble, it's a low release point. He's not super explosive vertically. It looks difficult. Yeah, exactly. exactly. So, I mean, he got a couple of them to go down, but you could tell, like, they were heavily contested. You'd think, you know, okay, pro probably gets a piece of that shot. So I would say probably no on him. With Bancaro, I do wonder if Purdue's Jade and Ivy can be in that top four. I just think he's so

explode. Like, he reminds me of Jha a lot of times with some of the things he does, and which is, like, there's only one Jaws, so let's not get crazy. But he has that blast off quickness that I think is going to play really well at the NBA level. And Purdue's trying to post up on every play. The middle's crowded. So you don't really get to see him like the peak version of Ivy at Purdue. So I think he's a guy who's going to be in that conversation, you know, in the three-four range. Yeah, because he's going to have the ball, right?

The other guys in many cases, that's what it always gets to when it comes draft time. people decide like this guy's got the ball. The other guys have to have the ball pass to them. Yeah. You know? Yeah. No, pretty much. And he's dynamic guys.

I ball versus softball guys. Yeah. Yeah, what about the teams? You know, those are those are kind of the prospects. Obviously, Duke didn't win the thing. V Tech won it. Yes. Yes.

So what do you make of them? It's a hot team going into the tournament. Yeah. I, like, they're not super talented. They have a really good, they have a really good coach. I think they all play to their, strengths. I think they very rarely have bad players on the floor. They're kind of one of those teams that have, you know, like eight, nine good players. They have shooting. Obviously, Hunter

Couture played the game of his life in the tournament final. Career high 31 points, made his first six three-pointers. But the thing they do have is that their guys can pass. Like Kevay Aluma is not super talented. Like he played in the G-League. What are they called? G-League. elite camp that they have before the combine last year. And even at that level, it was like, yeah, I don't know about this. But you watch him in the ACC, and the thing is, he can really pass. Like, that's the one skill he definitely has. So a lot of times, I mean, he's still, you know, big and can score and stuff, especially

against most college players. And any kind of double or any kind of helper or whatever, like, he's definitely hitting the open guy. And then they knocked down their shots. How about Big East? Anybody you found that you really cared about there? Yeah, so there's a couple guys in the Big East. I mean, Justin Lewis from Marquette.

He's an interesting player. He's 6-7, pretty good shot, very powerful body. You know, could certainly play for. It can be a little slow at times. You want to see a little more activity from him at the defensive end. Very good, like getting into short range, pull-ups and turnarounds, relies kind of a lot on bully ball, which worries you a little bit.

These guys you see just stiff-arming defenders, you kind of know at the pro level, that's either going to be an offensive foul or they're just not going to get anywhere with that. So you wonder a little bit about that with him, but I'd say he's solidly in the 20 to 40 range. Trying to think of, so I thought there were one or two other guys

that I liked in the Big East, but Justin Lewis was definitely the main, the main kind of guy to see in that conference. You mentioned Jade and Ivey earlier, John. You said he's jaw-like. Granted, there's only one John Moran. But with Ivy, what did you call it, blast off quickness, that first step that he has. Yeah.

When it comes to scouting a guy like that with the lack of spacing that he does have versus the spacing you'd hope he has, or at least the talent around him that you'd hope he'd have in the NBA, what are the challenges and kind of projecting that out? Because we've seen guys like that in the past. like, oh, you give him NBA spacing, but then it doesn't change things. I was like, what is the challenge of projecting that? I know, right? It's weird. I mean, NBA, scouts, analysts, whatever,

we're good at talking ourselves into guys who are maybe a little flawed sometimes, right? So, uh, I think with I, it's, I mean, he has that blast off first step,

but I think he also, like he shows enough in terms of, of being able to do stuff with it in terms of having the ability to make the pass or the skill to finish. He's become a pretty decent shooter too, which I think is important. So there's like there's a well, enough of a well-roundedness behind that. You can find it a little more believable and projectable. And you can say, okay, we can put the ball on this guy's hands at least somewhat from the word go and and let him develop those skills further at the NBA level. Any Villanova's or Yukons? UConn's entire team will be at Portsmouth.

It's like like it's amazing. Come on. No, I was seriously joking with our draft guy, Sam. It's not that far. I was at the UCon.S. Seaton Hall game. It was just like everybody on both teams will be playing in Portsmouth. This is like, you asked about Villanova. Yeah. Colin Gillespie, I think, is going to be, you know, he'll get a two-way, certainly,

maybe go back half of the second round. I'd say Justin Moore is in the same category. Good, solid college players, maybe a little limited athletically. Gillespie, I'm not sure he's quite as explosive since the injury. last year. So teams will want to do the research on that. It's a little older, obviously, too. The machine hates that. Oh, I'm glad you brought up the machine because you've got to give me somebody that, and I'm not going to make you reveal your matrix to everyone. But you have an awareness of all of these different mock drafts. And you have your machine, your algorithm. Give me a player that the algorithm, the machine is much higher on than the NBA consensus. Okay.

So I haven't fully done all my machine work yet. Just plug it in. Plug it into the Matrix. I'll start there. You know, one guy I like, though, whose numbers did show up. pretty well. Is Ryan Rollins from Toledo? Ryan Rollins? Yeah. Has he ever played a game on TV?

So he's going to play in the NIT tomorrow night. Hey. I'll watch it. That'll be big time. Ryan Robles. Like, he's a guy, I think, like, he could sneak into the back end of the first round if he comes out. Do any of these, like, small, small schools in the tournament have any players on them that are like pro, that are pros? David Roddy.

Well, is he a small enough school? I mean, it's a mountain west. Do we count? So, yeah. People have not seen David Roddy. Yeah. No, no, definitely not. Definitely not.

Definitely. Mount West was a good league this year. Like, there's definitely some pros in that league. And yeah, David Roddy is really unique because he does not look like a basketball player at all. He's six, five and a half and like 255 pounds. And like it's like all in his chest. Okay.

Isn't the NBA made for, you know, oddball players like that nowadays still? A little bit. I mean, you look at him and you say like, okay, well, maybe I could do some stuff like switchwise with him that I couldn't do with some other people because you're not really going to back him down, right? If you're a bigger player, you'd be able to shoot over him. But, you know, so is there some like PJ Tucker kind of switchability with him? And, you know, he's a pretty, pretty crafty player, like good passer, has shot the ball a lot better this year. So there's definitely something interesting there. I'm excited.

So I'm going to Indy for the games on Thursday. So I'm going to see Colorado State, Michigan. So it would be David Roddy and, you know, watching against a Big Ten school with some real size. You know, they got Dickinson and Diabade at Michigan who were like 610 and 7 feet. So I think that would be a really good test for him. That'll be great. And I think for anybody tuning in, whether he's a NBA draft prospect, a first rounder, or late second or whatever,

tuning in to watch a guy who's 6'5, 250 shoot off screens like he's Redick, it's hilarious. Yeah. It's just a good time. I love watching David Roddy. You know what's funny, I'm glad you guys brought a Colorado State. I was reading Norlanders thing this morning. Evidently, they've had like massive travel issue.

Yeah. Yeah, I was just seeing that too. You see that? Nordlander started tweeting about it. And I think that the attention that that probably got, the NCAA ended up getting them a charter by this morning because they had told them they weren't going to fly until like 7 o'clock tonight and they play like one of the first games on Thursday. I mean, it's outrageous. Yeah. This Colorado state, they were putting them really, I mean, at a big disadvantage.

Yeah. Just because they hadn't planned their travel for them or something weird like that. but I'm down with a 6-5 guy with a barrel chest. Six-five, two-fifty-five? Yeah, yeah. He's a nose tackle and he plays basketball. Great beard, too. Yeah.

Great beard? Oh, wow. Yeah. All right. Any other small school guys before we move on? I think a lot of people want to see Baylor Shireman from South Dakota State against pro. Oh, yeah. I've seen a lot of people picking that as an upset that they haven't lost a game since like the beginning of December and all this stuff.

Yeah, Providence got lucky as shit this year, too. I could swear in this, right? Yeah. So, like, they're not really, their talent level isn't the talent level of a four seed. So he's going to be an interesting guy. A lot of pro scouts want to see that game just to see him play against the higher level of competition. They know he can really shoot. They just don't know how it's going to ramp up.

Do you look at prospects differently now, you think, than you did before you worked for an NBA team? Yes. Yeah. How so? I guess I just had. have like so many cycles are going through this and really having to go

I had to go in much deeper into all these guys on the team side than I ever did like when I was at ESPN at the end of the day like I would you know I pull up my stats I watch these guys a little bit but like Chad Ford was doing the draft right? Like it was

this was like very much side hustle for me and the NBA you just have to go much deeper on all these guys and it's such a big universe of players that you start out with too when you're trying to winnow down you know 150 or 200 guys or whatever to okay the 60 that'll be on the list or not even anymore like with two ways and stuff and uh you're just looking at so many players now so i think that i think that really changed it and then i had to be a lot

more familiar with uh like the guys in europe too how much is a tournament matter Not that, I mean, historically, the, quote-unquote, tournament guys get overvalued, I think, because the owner sees them and, like, you know, and it might be, for some of these guys, it might be the only time the GM or the head coach season, too. And so I think, I think some guys could get inflated. Now, somebody did a study that, like, guys who go to the final four do you tend to be overdrafted. So I like to have most of my work done before the tournament starts.

This year is a little different because I couldn't travel for a couple months, you know, just because everything that happened. Nobody good. Yeah. What does matter more if the tournament doesn't matter, you know, as much as a lot of fans my thing? I really like to look at conference games because those are the games where the opponent has you really well scouted. you definitely play these teams twice a year.

The coaches see each other every year. They know what you're trying to do, and they're trying to take it away. So to me, it's a little more of an NBA translating an environment. And then the other thing I like about conference games is they tend to happen toward the second half of the year, which especially for the freshmen,

like November, December, you kind of like some guys are, some guys are up here, some guys are down here, you know, some guys it takes a little longer. but usually by the time the conference season rolls around, they've kind of become most of what they're going to be that year. So I think there's a little more validity, uh, validity, excuse me,

to them that way too. You mentioned earlier, John, that the NBA, like, the machine doesn't love age. Yeah. Well, I was just thinking about this the other day. Like last year, the other year we have Desmond Bain falling to number 30.

Every year there's older prospects that fall into the second round. Uh, this year, there's a couple, you know, slightly older guys that could go in the lottery. Like we could have Keegan Murray who's going to be a 22-year-old rookie. Yeah. There's guys that are going to be

21 years old as rookies in the first round Eastern from LSU, who you wrote about recently on the athletic. And I think, I think when it comes to age, isn't there some benefit to getting, regardless of age, a guy who's slightly more ready on that

rookie deal, especially if you're a team that's trying to compete early on, to have a competitive player over the first four years of their NBA contract versus a guy where it's like, oh, he's not getting a lot of competitive minutes off of our bench at developmental prospect. Every team's priorities are so different. But I think about a guy like Higin Murray, I mean, he's going to be able to play right away for teams. You know, like some of these older players are able to contribute early on.

Yeah, I mean, that's certainly the hope, right? Like at least give us that, right? If you're not going to give us a high ceiling. I think teams can sometimes overvalue that too. Like everyone got really hot to trot for Chris Duarte in the last draft. He's all right, you know, but I don't know if he was worth like leap it up into the lottery for, right? But in fairness, the brisysys have made a killing on this, John, with Brandon Clark, Desmond Bain, Xavier Tillman. These guys are all over the guys that have come in that have been like rotation level players for them.

Yeah, I mean, certain the pain pick, especially they knocked out of the park, right? And I guess. But Clark was probably, that was the most, that was the biggest thing held against Clark. Age. His age and his size, I think. I mean, he had crazy stats, though. I mean, to, you know, kind of offset that. It wasn't like, oh, he's 23 years old and average seven points a game, you know.

He had like a player, I forget what his VR was it, Gonzagra. I want to say it was like 38 or something. Like, it was absurd. So, and, and, you know, like these guys like Keegan Murray, and Eason, like they have a little of that too where their stats are so good that you're like, okay, well, okay, you're a little older, but you're

also doing what we would hope you would do if you were a little older, right? So I think Tillman was another. The analytics really liked Tillman, even though he was kind of an older player. One of your faves, one of your faves back

in the day was Dylan Brooks. That's right, man. Bill and Brooks was no spring chicken. No, he was not. No, he came out after his junior year. And he, but our analytics still did, did really like him. And I saw him play a bunch of times that year. So, yeah, that was one I felt really good about.

Not improved by the tournament, his stock, which is crazy, right? There's a bunch of Oregon kids that went before him, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, yeah, Tyler Dorsey. went ahead of him. And so did the big guy, Jordan Bell. Jordan Bell. And everyone made a big deal about Jordan Bell

going, you know, 37 and making fun of the Bulls and stuff. But, yeah, that was weird. He didn't get a bounce from that. Like, he was the best player in the Pac-12 and took his team in the final four. And it was just like, yeah. It's like, really?

Like, what are we doing here? Right? Right now, who's your pick to win the whole thing this month? I'm thinking Iowa, Keegan Murray, personally. I think Gonzaga. Gonzaga. I mean, if I had to pick somebody, I'll go, you know, very chalk here. Did you do a bracket, Chris?

I have not filled with that. I haven't filled mine out yet either. Are you in love with Jet? I really like him. I think there's some, I'd say there are some concerns. You know, offensively, what is he? that's probably the biggest one. Like he's a good shooter.

I've watched him. I watched them play in Seattle before, you know, early in the season. You know, I like doing that, watching guys out on the floor before games. You can see him take like a hundred three pointers or whatever and get a much better idea for their shooting. I think Chet's going to be fine as a shooter, but I don't think he's like this crazy knockdown guy either. I think he's just at the three point line because, you know, what, what are you going to do? Can he post up really? Like, so

I would compare him to like Chris Staps, Brazingis, I guess. Some of those guys, yeah, that's fair. Some of those guys, though, that, like, they come out, even with, like, say, mobile. Like, if I said, if I, or Cunningham, if I told those guys, like, hey, I think this guy could be,

make five to ten all-star teams. You know what I mean? People wouldn't have thought that's insane. Yeah. If I told you, Ched Honggren, it'll make five to ten all-star games. Would you I believe that? Yeah.

Yeah. No, I believe that. Oh, you would. Okay. Yeah. I mean, he could be a defensive player of the year. I mean, his shot blocking is really pretty unique. So he definitely has something going for him where there are some really high level outcomes here. And you'd say that

statement could apply to four guys. Is that fair? Yeah. I'm trying to make sure in my head here. I mean, I... Ivey home Grin, Jabari, and Palo. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anybody else that could move into that conversation?

Anybody. I just, Keegan Murray, Shaden Sharp. Oh, Shaden Sharp. I forgot about him. Yeah.

I'm talking to people about Sharp. I'm hoping to see him when I see Kentucky this week. Like, at least like go through the layup line or something. Because for the people who are familiar, Shaden Sharp this year, not playing for Kentucky. Ineligible,

unfortunately, you know, college rules and all that. But yes, Shadishar, very talented wing prospect. Yeah. And he may end up being the fifth pick in the draft, even though he originally went there with the intention of playing for Kentucky next year. So we'll see how that all goes.

So I think there's a pretty clear cliff after four. And we get to a much different talent level. Like, I'm not crazy about this draft from like five through 14, let's say. like the grizzlies pick verno that they'll get from the lakers I don't know the lakers won't stop losing yeah exactly exactly why aren't you crazy about it though

I mean I'm curious because I think about that range you know like a dice and Daniels in the G league a jump haliburnesque prospect not that he's that level maybe a jaden hardy go to scoring guys I like to get shot on Jeremy sohan from Baylor type of guy defends across positions there's some

interesting players that I find a lot of Ben. Easton mentioned him in passing earlier from LSU. A lot of guys that I'm interested in that have skills that are valuable in the NBA, but it's not something where I'm head over heels for a lot of these guys. Are you sort of in the same, you know, feeling the same this way there? Yeah. I think you just talk about a star, right? Yeah. Like franchise, franchise altering level point. Yeah, I think, yeah,

I think we've really run out a star potential once we get, once we get past for. You're not finding a guy like the person you saw the other night dropped 53 points. And Kevin Duren, you were at 152, right? No, no. You were there for that? I was there. I was, yes, I was at Berkeley Center for watching KDs 53, so that was kind of cool.

You sitting next to Kyrie? That was amazing. I was in the same arena with Kyle. actually twice and 24 hours. The ACC final was in that same arena the night before. So what did you think about watching the KD explosion in person? It just reminds you that for all the Nets have been through this year, I think everyone is still scared to tell to play that team in the playoffs with a healthy KD

and with, you know, four games out of seven against Kyrie. And... Come on. And we'll see, and we'll see, you know, we'll see what happens with Simmons here. Now, you know, this back thing could be another fly in the ointment for the nets. I mean, their depth situation is pretty bad with no Joe Harris, no Lamarcus. Like, they're definitely counting on some guys who you were like, oh, that guy's starting to playoff game.

Like, okay. But just the fact of having Katie out there, though, is going to give a puncher's chance in any series in the east. You said nobody wants to face Brooklyn if Adam Silver gives you a call and says, Hey, John, what do you think about next season? We let the top, you know, one to three seeds choose their first round opponents. What do you think about that, John? What would you say?

I like that idea because, well, especially now with the play-in, these teams have no agency at all where they can't even fiddle with it on their own. Like, if you'd say, the one thing I would say is you could choose your own opponent, but actually you you give up your seed to do it. In other words, if you're number one and you'd rather play number seven,

the number eight, then fine, but you're going to be the number two seed for the rest of the playoffs. Ah, it's an interesting wrinkle. See, where I have,

where I've rebut this was, and maybe, I think the lead decision makers would never go for this, because if you pick your opponent and you lose, you're fired. You're fired. You're fired.

And you know, look, front offices and coaches, we love to think that everybody's always pulling the same rope within organizations, but that's not so. So your coach could be pissed about the opponent you choose. Your players could be pissed about the opponent you choose. Like, I don't know, man, you're throwing in a lot of variables rather than just, hey, this is, I see the positives of it, for sure. I just think that the negatives of it need, I'm unsure that teams would ever vote for that

because most, in a lot of situations, you're dealing with self-preservation in those jobs. And God forbid, you say, hey, we want to play the, in this year, we want to play the Timberwolds. And then the Timberwolves beat your ass. like you're probably not you know you chose them bro you're done yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah i i think there's definitely something there to that uh i mean you know fortunately in my seven years you know we us and the coaches always just it was like a mind meld just everything was just perfect so so i so i can't relate to that part but yeah i bet you were You guys, you and Lido Holland and Dave Yager, you guys, I would see you guys frequently just in total lockstep.

Everything you did. Hey, by the way, Kev, you know, you started off at the very beginning of this. You brought up Jordan Adams. Dave Yager still to this day is bad that the Grizzlies didn't draft Rodney Hood. Rodney Hood. He's not bad that we didn't draft Nicola Yokic. He was, hey, look. That's Rodney Hood.

So, like, it got so bad, like, both coaches, they hated the machine. So when they traded Rudy Gay, Lionel went ballistic over trading Rudy Gett, right? Then the next coach, Dave Yeager, that draft played, who was, was it Utah that drafted Rodney? I think it was. Yeah, yeah. He played a good game against the Grizzlies and came to his press. conference and just went on for like five minutes about how awesome Rodney you it is. Yeah.

It was the funniest thing ever. The absolute funniest. But to that point, you can. You know what that's like, John, where not everybody's always on the same page. And God forbid, whose choice is it? The coaches? The players voting on this? The front office voting on this.

It's a lot to get on the same page for, hey, we want to play. the Timberwolves instead of the Lakers or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I think for that reason, I think everyone is pretty comfortable with the idea of just win as many games as you can, play as many series at home as you can, and let the chips fall where they may on who the opponent is. It's interesting that we did see some shenanigans last year

with teams trying to avoid the Lakers. You know, you brought up Brooklyn. The honeymoon's kind of over with the Philly thing. where are you with that? You know, the Nets game was clearly humiliating. But then even last night, they get done in by Bones Highland of all people. Yeah. I don't know.

Like Philly, like even after the trade, I don't know. I wasn't like, okay, now they're going to crush it. Like, they're really good. But are they better than Miami or Milwaukee right now? Are they better than Boston? I think they're a top four team in the east. but are they just lit up are they equipped are they equipped to get out of the second round well what's what worried me is seeing meang taking the big shots down the stretch

well the self pass off the side of the backboard i thought was a brilliant play he was just trying to get to his floater and he wasn't going to get there off the dribble exactly trying to get to his floater Hey, so you mentioned Boston. I saw Kevin light up. He's been wearing me out every week. He's like, Chris, I'm telling you. Do you view Boston in that category, John?

Do you view them alongside Bucks, Kee, Sixers, those teams there at the top of the east? I think they're like almost there. I think they are one of the four best teams in the east. Are they one of the two best teams in the East? Man, I have trouble getting there. Not great depth, and I'm not sure they have enough offense slash shooting. Probably the two things. But at full strength, like if they can keep their rotation in a playoff game to six, seven guys

and not have to get into the, you know, whatever's hiding at the back of the bench there. Mick Stouskas. Yeah, yeah. But look, man, if you're saying four, you're kicking out who Brooklyn you kicking out Philly I guess Brooklyn's like their own special category right now because they're nowhere like in the standings they're like eighth ninth whatever they're gonna have to they're gonna have to play in but you see the idea of what they can be fully loaded you just don't know if you're ever going to see it this year do you see a massive gap between those five and the rest of the east yeah I do I mean Chicago is probably the next best team after that you can like you can argue for them if they have ball, if they have Caruso. They were pretty good at the beginning of the year. But I,

they got to beat somebody, right? Well, they haven't beat any good teams, yeah, which is interesting. But I also think like they don't have a ton of size. You can go at Booch and, you know, offensively. I think because they don't have great shooting around the Rosen, it makes it easier to scheme him. It also makes what he's done this year, like more amazing too. But so for all those reasons, yeah, I think like Chicago's had a really good year.

I think if you told them before the season they were going to have this year, they certainly would have taken it. But I still have to have trouble seeing them getting out of that first round. I look forward to the Booch-Lonzo multiple firsts for 80 trade the softsies after these teams lose. That's what I look forward to. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Just throwing the idea out into the universe. Just throwing it out. there. It solves a lot of problems.

Everything you just said about Chicago. Give me a fully healthy AD with that roster. When was the last time someone on the Lakers was like, get me out of here? Are you saying the Lakers will just be, just be like, oh, we should, we should move off this guy. Maybe it's a mutual agreement.

Wow. Who knows? Maybe LeBron will say get him out of here. I want somebody healthy. Give me Lonza. Who can't, couldn't say, hellily this year, but that's a different story. That's fair.

Hey, let me ask you on that DeRose. in front because he has been a great story. And I think it's fair to say that once upon a time when you were king of nerds, you would go to Sloan conference and you guys would sit around and talk about how, how overrated Demar de Rosen was. He was like analytics guys. Like he was a punching bag. He was for many, many years.

Explain the Rosen season this season. Because I've talked about how one of the things that we've mentioned is, you know, analytics were always based upon, you know, the best process of things. And now teams want to stop you at the rim and they want to stop you at the three, running off the three point line. And so it's weirdly played into the Durant, DeRosen, Chris Pauls, like the guys that can get to that mid-range and destroy you from it. It's like the league has almost come full circle on this in some ways. Is that a good explanation for the DeRosen career year this late into career? Yeah, I mean, he got more accurate on the mid-range shots was one of the biggest things. Like, he's hitting them at a much higher rate than he's ever hit them before.

And you can see that rate going up like from Toronto to San Antonio to Chicago. I wrote about this a few weeks ago, actually. And so I think that's one of the biggest things. And it's important for mid-range shooters because there's almost like this threshold where it goes from being something you're not going to worry about at all to holy crap.

If we don't take away this mid-range shot, he's just going to get it on every single trip and he's going to hit enough of them that he's going to beat us with it. So it was like, statistically is almost like Dirk in 2012 right now. Or I'm sorry, 2011. In terms of, even though he's getting to those shots in a different way,

in terms of the percentage of his shots that are from mid-range and the percentage that he's making. And when you get to, when you get to a certain level of shot making from mid-range and you can generate, generate them basically at the snap of a finger, like that's one of the things with the mid-range shots is generally these guys have an easier time creating them and they do threes or rim shots.

You can say only shoot threes or shoot at the rim, but like the other team's trying to prevent you from getting those shots too. When, DeMarre, sorry,

there you go. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was, I was just going to say, you know, with DeMarre, though,

like he was one of the NBA's most efficient ISO scores for three years in San Antonio. And yet, you know, he's kind of considered a, you know, an overpay during the offseason

with Chicago. I don't know. It's just, very interesting, like thinking about scouting the drafts and projecting guys forward, scouting NBA players pro-personnel scouting. What was it that people missed with DeRosen

and San Antonio with the development of that mid-range jumper, how he became an elite ISO efficiency player? Because now everybody sees it and it's obvious. But with the Spurs, it's just, you know, people weren't even talking about it in the media, people around the league were still like, De Rosen, I don't really want to trade for

the Rosen. Well, I think yeah, I think even in the San Antonio years, you looked, it was like age 29, age 30, age 31, and you're kind of like, okay, well, this is the, this is the peak and it only gets worse from here. And then obviously he doesn't give you a lot of the defensive end either, so people are thinking about that too. But even with those ISO efficiency stats,

he didn't quite have the same overall statistical impact, you know, from when you added up all the different variants of shooting that he's had this year. in Chicago. Interesting. So it was, and then that was that, when that contract dropped, everybody was like, whoa. Yeah, I hated that deal. Yeah.

It was not, it was roundly criticized. I didn't criticize that one, Chris. I remember saying at the time that the Bulls, if they, you know, are sacrificing on offense and if they are competent defensively, they can be good. If anything, I mean, I feel like they're a little worse, worse than expect because they can't beat anybody good. I haven't beat anybody good. All season.

long. I didn't expect them to almost be this bad against good teams, but they're better against everybody else than maybe a lot of people might have expected. But they can't be anybody good. It's just weird, though, with the guy like to Rosen, though, because like the Lakers, you know, LeBron, they meet with him. They see the Rosen play. They have an

opportunity. It's just, it's, it just speaks to how hard this is to build a team and to put, to put pieces together to build a winning franchise. John, you wrote about the Dallas Mavericks. That's the article that's out on the athletic. And it's interesting we brought up earlier that whole Rudy Gay deal.

And there's a little of that energy when it comes to Porzingis in the sense that sometimes, yes, you move the more talented player for the less talented players, but it benefits your team greatly. Do you see that in this way that it was in some ways just addition by subtraction? I think in the case of Prozengis, it was more splitting up his number into multiple contracts, which, I mean, we did that with the Rudy trade a little bit too because, you know, there was Tashon's deal,

and then we were able to get a trade exception and got Courtney Lee into that shortly thereafter. But in the Porzenghis case, I just think there was a feeling that they weren't going to be able to move off this money and that if his knee got worse, they were going to have to, you know, they were really sitting on a millerings. then. So they'd have Dinwiddie on a decent deal. They need another ball handler around Luca

anyway. And then having all these, they actually have, I want to say it's six guys now, it'll make between 10 and 20 million. Like they have a lot of different guys that can throw together into deals and package so that if another star caliber player does become available, that they can make that move. Now, the unfortunate part for them is the trade for Braziggas was supposed to be that trade already, right? So they're kind of really taking a mulligan on this one. How good do you think they are? Are they a danger for Phoenix? Are they a danger for fully stocked warriors? Not sure. You know who they're a danger for is actually Memphis? Of course they are. Got to stay away from them. They're just going to suck

the air out of the ball, take away all the fast breaks and make Memphis feed them in the half court. You know, Memphis went on a streak where they, like, scored 114 points or more every single game. And then you can go back and look at the game log. And then it's like Dallas, 87. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They scored like 30 points less. And it's happened twice. It's happened twice. Yeah. That's going to be an ugly, uncomfortable series for Memphis if it comes to that. Well, they're not going to drop it. seven, six, hopefully. Yeah, I mean, three, six

would probably be the most likely pairing if it came to that. If Denver, right now, Denver's a game and a half back from Dallas, if Denver were to slide into the five, Dallas to the six, maybe it's a potential second round series. Unless Memphis ends up a three, then it's going to be the three six.

Yep. Totally possible. So where do you see doubt? Do you look at them as a danger for the top seat? Not, not real. I don't think they have enough talent around Luca yet. I think they're a threat to win a first round series. I don't see them as a threat to go beyond that. You see anybody outside of Phoenix

and Golden State? In the West? I guess if you, are we counting in Denver if they got their guys? Denver if they get their guys, which seems increasingly unlikely right now. How about the clippers if they get theirs? I guess I've already written off that scenario.

But yeah, if the clippers have Paul George and Kauai, yes. Then they need to be taken very seriously. a team standpoint, why have the Clippers not said these guys aren't coming back? I think that's just deference to the players and how they operate.

I you know, because I think there's been enough whispering that the assumption is that we probably don't see Kauai and there's a good chance we don't see Paul either, right? But I don't think they

want to announce anything because I don't think the players ultimately want to announced it like that's just how they operate that's always how kauai is operated right like so i i just think that's that's why it's it's rolling this way they're giving uh you know podcast a couple weeks ago that simmons did they they talk punchers chance and i know the lakers came up punchers chance with a dback i i can't even get there i like i just no i I just don't think the rest of the team is good enough. And I'm not sure AD at this point is good enough.

Honestly, wow. Oh, wow. Like what? Look at the games they play together this year. And they still haven't dominated. AD has had moments. Like there was one game in Detroit earlier this year after LeBron got ejected, I think, where AD was awesome and totally dominated the game.

But we just don't, like, we just have. The key phrase was there was one game in Detroit. In Detroit, yeah. Yes. There's that one night where he absolutely owned Trey Liles and Luca Garza. Yeah.

Are you happy with distance fans? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We talked about you, Pistons fans. There you go. But even relative to where he was in the, like in the bubble two years ago, he was amazing.

And like, I just don't think we've seen that guy all year. Well, that's the one big if if AD comes back healthy. The other big if

is if Russ just stopped shooting at all. Just only at room. You need two go for those things to happen for there to be even,

I don't know. Not even a, what's less than a puncher's chance. Nobody would know what the phrase would be. You went to Virginia. Come on,

John. A Wences chance? A Wences chance? Oh, thank you, Lord. Jesus. So glad. I didn't even have to bring it up. I didn't even have to bring it up. Going with the cell phone there. Now 30 minutes on Carson Wentz. Yep. Go. Can't wait. Yeah, we need to record a whole podcast. I am so excited about your football team's future.

Oh, man. The commanders. I was reading that people are going to call them the commies. That's what I'm calling. That worked out well. We wear red, comrade. That worked well. My God. I had the best timing on that one either. Good grief. John, everybody can read John's stuff at the athletic.

He is John Hollinger. You're the best. Thank you, buddy. Thanks, John. All right, guys, thanks. All right, that's going to do it for today's show. Thanks to Kevin O'Connor. Thanks to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez.

As always, Kevin, I'll talk to you on Friday. Looking forward to it, Chris. And sorry to Buck's fan. for not talking about your team moving into the number two seed. Hopefully we'll get to them on Friday. To talk about them with the spending champions.