The Mismatch - So Much for Those Nets, Raptors Not Done Yet, and the Real Mavs Are Starting to Show Up

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

Verno and KOC discuss the Celtics' surprising first-round sweep of the Nets and explain why Boston winning is ultimately good for the league (01:30). They debate whether Kyrie Irving is the right fit for Kevin Durant to win a title (09:44). The Raptors have clawed themselves back into their series against the 76ers, and the guys debate whether they can turn it all around and beat the Sixers (29:34). KOC was at the Jazz-Mavs game and shares his experience being inside American Airlines Center (40:50). Is it time for the Suns to focus all their defense on stopping Brandon Ingram (50:09)? They last go through the night’s slate of playoff action (54:08). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you a sports fan who didn't know the NFL draft was this week? Then boy, do I have the teaser trailer for you. I'm Danny Heifitz, and I host the Ringer NFL draft show every week with Danny Kelly, Ben Solek, and Craig Horlebeck. We're doing mock drafts before the draft. We're great in picks after the draft. Now, do we know which picks were good and who's going to go where? No, absolutely not.

We can't predict the future. But people like hearing about it. Yeah, don't you, you sickos. So we talk about it anyway. So come listen to the Ringer NFL draft show. And guess what? If you like the draft, but you don't like me, you can go listen to the Ringer NFL show with Kevin Clark and Nora Princeziati and our other NFL experts,

or you can go to NFL draft.com to check out our massive draft guide. So come listen to the Ringer NFL draft show and the Ringer NFL show on Spotify because they employ me, or it's also available on all the other platforms that don't employ me. Welcome to The Mishmatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Conner, Kevin O'Conepin'Conepin'Col, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Clymer, Come on. Burnow!

What's going on this Tuesday, man? Well, we had a lot of good basketball that has taken place since we last spoke. We will get to the games that took place last night. We will also get to the games that are going to be going on tonight. Let's start with the question that I know everybody is wanting me to pose to start off the pod. Kevin, are you now a Celtics believer? Chris, are you now a Celtics believer? You know what?

Here's the thing, though, like for months, all this time we've been talking about Boston. At first it was it's a sleep, they're a sleeper, then it becomes their contender. We're talking about that, back and forth. Neither of us, and nobody in their right mind could have expected a four-game sweep in the first round over the nets. Nobody could have seen this coming. I don't think anybody could have seen it coming. 116 to 112, they win last night. Kevin Durant did show up and looked like Kevin Durant,

but it was too little too late. And it's kind of weird. You go through the box score, and of course I watched the game, and then it didn't really match up with when I looked at the box score. I mean the dead shot over 50% from the field. And in fact, I think in almost if not every game, but almost every game,

they shot over 50% from the field and got swept. That's like impossible. But they shot 17 of 29 from the line for 59%. No thanks to Nick Claxton. I mean, they had more steals. They had more blocks. They had less turnovers. Just really bizarre.

Like in terms of the way it happened, the way this sweep happened. They did such an amazing job on Kevin Durant. for the first three games of the series. He finally got going a little bit last night. And then to just dissect. Still only 13 of 31, though. Still 13 of 31. It wasn't like a, you know, a peak KD night.

No, no, no, no, no. He had to, it was high volume. At least he was aggressive. Yes, exactly. Right. You'd rather go down swinging like that. And so oddly, yeah, like the box score looks a little different than maybe what you'd expect, but Boston comes away with a sweep in this series.

And there is no lack of criticism going around for Brooklyn. But I think it's fair. I mean, what a disaster, Kev. What a disaster. This whole Brooklyn thing has been. And, you know, it's a lesson in when it all got thrown together originally. It was like, oh, my goodness, this could turn out to be something very. very special.

This team is going to be a title contender or title favorite year after year. And here we are a couple years down the road. And they've got, you know, they're swept. They're swept in the first round of the NBA playoffs. It's crazy to think about. Yeah, I mean, especially considering one year ago against the Milwaukee Bucks, they're, you know, a couple inches away from advancing. and you never know how far they could have went.

They could have won the whole thing last year, and for it to turn into what it has. I mean, for Boston, look, you have to also give credit to Boston. They are a complete team. They dismantled Brooklyn. They exposed their weaknesses. But on the net side of things, though, this does speak to the amount of change this roster

will inevitably undergo this offseason. Basically, like aside from, K.D. Kiree with his player option. Joe Harris, who's injured, Seth Curry. Aside from these guys, there's not a lot of players

that are under contract for next year. Bruce Brown's a free agent. Blake Griffin, Nick Claxton, Dragich. Patty Mills has an option as well. A lot of guys are going to hit the market. And so this Nets team, this is going to be the last year we see a team that resembles this. They're going to have to undergo a lot of changes.

off season without a lot of cap space, with only $11 million trade exception, without a lot of assets. Brooklyn is in a spot right now where, like, the way we talked about the Lakers all season long is being surpassed in the Western Conference, doesn't it feel like in many ways Brooklyn has been surpassed not only by Boston but a number of other teams in the East and they could even be in next season even more so unless they're able to totally overhaul this. Oh, for sure. And if you're doing those future rankings, I mean, and let's just say, you know, I think this is good for the league in the same way that I talked about Milwaukee and their success last year. And Phoenix and their success last year. You watch what has taken place with Boston. I couldn't help but think about this last night as I'm watching Boston versus the Nets. And here's two. homegrown, drafted stars. Here is another guy in Marcus Smart, who is now a point guard and has double-digit assist last night and won defensive player of the year. You've got

their like prodigal son in Al Horford, who is returned and is now playing a major role for him. Grant Williams, Peyton Pritchard, guys coming off the bench. Like these are all guys that Boston drafted and then stuck with instead of selling off in terms of. And I was with the chorus of everyone else early in the year where it's like, yo, I don't know how long you want to stick with this. And they're the story of a team that this year looked like crap, looked like a disappointment, just a mediocre NBA basketball team. And then throughout the season, they altered some roster stuff. But more importantly, they figured it out. and you have this other team, and if you want to believe you can't just throw talent together and win,

then this is just an unbelievable example. Because, you know, Boston had their struggles, and that's even with guys, a lot of guys that have played together for a lot of years. And with the new coach and everything else, they had to really figure it out. Brooklyn, you know, nobody's crying for Kyrie when he talked to. about, you know, we didn't, they didn't play through their struggles, right? These are their struggles. You're talking about, what, 20 games or something that you play together? You can't just throw guys together and say, go be great. And I think that when you line up these two teams and look at the difference, that's a major one that stands out to me, not just the way the

rosters were put together, but also that through 82 games, Boston figured out how to be the best version of themselves. And here we are with their season over, and the Nets never came close to it. So like with Kyrie and KD, there's been a lot of talk about, obviously, with Kyrie being a part-time player over the course of the year, the injuries, the team underwent, about the lack of chemistry. Before yesterday's game, I was looking at the numbers with Durant and Irving during the regular season. The Nets Outscored teams with those two guys on the court without Hardin by 9.5 points per 100 possessions, which is a really, it's a great number. So with this team, how much of it do you think is like Kyrie and Katie versus it's just the rest of the roster

that was exploited? Okay. That Hardin deal, that Hardin deal, they gave up all their depth. to get hardened and then they didn't get it all the depth back in the Simmons deal. Because like how much of this is on Katie and Kyrie versus just the rest of the roster is weak, I guess is my thought. Okay. Well, here's what I would say to that. I'd say that's regular season. We just saw what we just saw what it looks like when you can plan.

And I think you're seeing this across the league. If you have one guy that you can just decide, this guy's not killing us. That when you get to playoff basketball, you're playing good teams. And so then inevitably the next day you hear about, oh, this guy's not what we thought he was, or this guy's overrated, or what the hell's wrong with this guy.

And it keeps, to me, it keeps coming back to, right, Devin Booker's out so New Orleans can sell out on Chris Paul. You see Minnesota selling out on John Morant. You see Boston selling out on Kevin Durant. You see Miami selling out. on Trey Young. I think what the playoffs does is expose that you have to have other guys that are going to step up. You can't just, you know, take out the head of the snake, as they say, and because these defenses are going to make these guys' lives held. And so you better

have other guys that can step up. And so at that point, you know, to your point about like, hey, these two, when it was during the year, they really stepped up. Of course, they need that better depth. And of course, somebody like Joe Harris would help dramatically, but he's out. But the truth is, you were counting on Kyrie. I mean, they sold out on Durant, obviously, the whole series. And Kyrie Irving showed up for one game. And then it was done. And I think if you're Kevin Durant, you woke up this morning and be like, Jesus. I'm counting on Kyrie Irving and Ben Simmons. That's who I'm counting on. And that's who I'm counting on next year too. I mean, come on. Tough. Yeah. I mean, if you're if you're Kevin Durant, you created a lot of this. I mean, you look around

the locker room and you think to yourself, can I win with Ben Simmons? Can I win with Kyrie Irving? Are these are these the guys that are going to get me back to the NBA finals? I think it's only natural to wonder to that. But I also think if you're Katie, it's important to look in the mirror because you leave Oklahoma City for Golden State and their ball movement, the passing there, while you're there, it's a big thing. But then you leave and remember that comment, Katie made about passing and, you know,

movement can only go so far, but then you have to slow things down. Do you remember that comment, Chris? Then he made about that? Well, so then that style is here in Brooklyn. But to your point, I think you nailed it. We are at a point right now in the league where, yes, you do need to play that way in certain situations.

But for the large majority of the game, you need to have multiple guys, three or four guys in your lineup that can get stops and make plays off the bounce on offense. And for Durant, like, Kyrie had that comment last night where he's like, oh, yeah, me and Katie, I intend to be back. We're going to work, work this out and run this franchise with Joe Sy and Sean Marks. you like if that's true you guys got to like change the mindset here right well and the crazy thing is kevin you have you have kevin durant coming out last night saying like you know look i'm not like lebron in the sense that i don't run things over here and then you have kairine saying hey we're going to work with sean and joe and figure this out like what yeah i mean i mean look like a course kevin naren has influence every star player has influence as they should have

influence on the decisions that are made. The issue comes when, like, you're forcing the team to sign the corpse of D'Andre Jordan. That's when the issue comes as, like, one of the first decisions. And the Hardin deal at the time made sense. Like, you're getting James Hardin when you gave up everything that you did. But, boy, like, the decisions that they've made over the course of time, this Nets team was so fun with Jared Allen and Karas Leverd and Kenny Ackinson as the coach and Joe Harris and all the young guys that they had prior to KD and Carrie Irving,

nobody could have seen it going this poorly for the first three years of these guys. Nobody. And now you've got Carrie Irving coming up for a quarter of a billion dollars. He could sign for five years, $246 million this year, dude. Do you really want to give him that money? Are you serious? That would be insanity. Insanity.

What choice do you have? What choice do you have? not spending that money on Kyrie Irving, I'd move on from him. Are you serious? That's the choice. I don't understand. Like, people are like, oh, well,

he's so talented, he's so good. Like, bro, you cannot count on this guy. You can't count on him. I know he hit a final shot 10 years ago. Does Katie want him, though? I mean, would you? If I'm Kevin Durantz? Yes.

No, no. No, but I'm not Kevin Duran. Kevin Duran has stood by him the whole year. He's done nothing but support him. If that's what he wants, then he gets what's coming to him. But he'll never win shit. He won't. He won't.

You can't have a culture. You can't have a locker room. You can't have, like, part of this, like, that's fine if you want to just say, hey, Kevin Durant, like, we ask him what he wants. And so, of course, you know, if the choice is not having, Kevin Durant, then we just do what he wants us to do. But, I mean, if you look around and you go, like, it's kind of odd if you're, if you're Sean marks to me.

And it's like, I've got Katie, but then the other two guys are Ben Simmons and Kyrie Irving. It's not all about talent. It's just not. It's not about talent always. It's about personality, too, you mean? That's what you're getting on, right? It's about culture, personality, all that. And we're learning this, right?

It's about playing together. It's about over the course of 82 games, building camaraderie, building a team, you know, all of these things going through the ups and downs, everything else. I mean, it's not about having guys isolated on an island. And I'm not talking about in basketball. I'm talking about off the court. And how can you look up and you can say, oh, yeah, it's just going to be normal, everything. going to be fine. I mean, we could go back to the last Cleveland year. Go back and look at the stories. There were reports that Kyrie Irving and LeBron James didn't speak, did not speak for the last

month of the season. I mean, that was a good team, but they weren't even talking to each other. Like, you're not winning with that guy. Come on. You are not winning with that guy. So your advice to Kevin Durant would be to move on. Move on. Yes. You think you can win with him? And do what, though? Like, that's the question.

With who? I mean, look, I would certainly, basketball is not only what happens on the court, it's also what happens off the court. And I've hitched my wagon to two guys that we can debate the merits of their choices, but that's not the show for today. Here is the undeniable truth.

You cannot count on either of them. You can't. You can't count on them. And I've got to have guys I can count on. So that's where I'd stand. I can't count on those guys. You disagree? Would you just stick with it?

I mean, if you're Kevin Durant and you're meeting with Joe and Sean away from Kyrie. And they said, What do you? And he said, what do you want to do? I would, I mean,

I guess I'd say, hey, don't tell Kyrie, but. I mean, what do you think, Kep? Where do you go from here

if you're Brooklyn? And you're trying to figure out where do you go from here? So here's the thing. Are you stuck? Are you stuck with Katie? With Katie, if you're him,

are you stuck with Kyrie and Ben Simmons? because when Cleveland was trying to trade Kyrie, this was years ago, there was so few teams that even had interests. That's why Boston was able to get Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, who had a major injury, a pick, and then Jay Crowder. It's not like they gave up everything to get Kyrie Irving. With Ben Simmons just last year, it's not like teams are lined up around the corner to go get him.

Kyrie's value has dropped since Cleveland traded him. Ben Simmons value probably is not what it was at the beginning of last season, not what it was at the deadline. There's less teams that would even want him. So if you're Brooklyn, are you stuck with these guys? Is my question. And that's where,

like, who's going to want Kyrie? Like, let's say you are Katie and you're meeting with them privately. And you say, yeah, I'm ready to move on from Kai. Well,

where are you sending him? And what are you getting back? Like, how many teams would really want him? LeBron with the Lakers maybe? It is like, other than that. how many teams would really want Kyrie?

How many teams would want Ben Simmons? Again, I would go to the Lakers there too. I just don't think there's a lot of destinations for those guys. I don't know. People always convince themselves of talent. And the truth is, that's what Kevin will do to. Kevin's going to look up and he's going to say, look, we didn't have this season because of the mandate.

Kyrie wasn't around. It'll be different when we're all together for an entire season. Ben had his mental health issues and then he had his back issues. so we never got him in the fold. So we basically lost James Hardin and we're not able to replace it with another big time player that we thought we'd have in the fold.

And if we have Ben Simmons and we have Kyrie Irving and we have me, we're going to be great. We're going to be devastating. And so I'm not going to blame it. I'm not going to blame it on the roster until we're all together playing together. And, you know, you convince yourself of that.

You convince yourself of that. Now, here's me saying I don't believe that that's true. But I think if you're them, you convince themselves of that, that they had a million problems this year and next year, as long as they don't have those problems going into the year, they're going to be just fine. No, I think you're right, Chris. And ultimately here for Brooklyn, the challenge is, look,

it's not just about Kyrie and Simmons either. It's as we said up top. this entire roster is basically going to hit free agency. So, like, Drummond has already said he'll leave. You're going to find a center. Claxton is restricted. He could go somewhere or get paid a lot of money that becomes something that you don't want to sign. You're going to have to find another ball handler with Dragich as a free agent.

Like, this entire team is going to change. And so it's not just Kyrie. It's not just Ben Simmons and getting it right with this co-stars. is getting it right with the rest of this roster. And like, if I were a Nets fan, I'd be scared, man. Like, it's a lot to ask for this team to get on the level of Boston that's playing that's nine deep with no weak spots. It's hard to get on the level of some of these other rosters as you project them forward

as they could get better. Never mind the bucks, how they could continue to grow as Yannis continues to get better and better. Katie's going to be 34 next year. And it's right now the team that he's playing for, it's hard to feel any good about them being a finals team considering the injury history with Kyrie Irving, the lack of availability.

The last time we saw Ben Simmons, he choked the game away. Then this is his second season in six years. It's really amazing. His second full season in six years in the NBA, not playing a single game because, of course, for his rookie year, he had the foot surgery that knocked him out for the year,

while the six years were still tanking at the time. and they held them out towards the end. But like, it's just, it's just the supporting cast is non-existence. And the stars are untrustworthy. Well, and how about this, Kev? I was stunned, stunned. I heard David A. Smith when he was going off on his rant the other day. There was one stat in there that I was like, what the hell?

I think he said four times in Kyrie Irving's career, he's played 60 games. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, there's no. Wait, I mean, so this is not just, right? Like, I mean, this year we can say, okay, well, he sat out because of the mandate, whatever else. I mean, if we're talking about, like, counting on a guy and a guy's going to be there, I mean, that is, that's a fourth of the season that he regularly misses.

I was, I couldn't believe that. True. I couldn't believe that. Four times? he's played over 60 games that's like that seems impossible to me but that's what he said I was like golly

that is white white in fact let me go back yeah that's true you can't trust those guys and even Kevin Durant himself with his injury history he can't trust himself to stay on the court either

so here we go it is actually three times he has played 70 games. So I take that back. And then he's got a few more that are over. Okay, so I guess his point was over 60 games. That is true. He played 60 one year.

So he has played over 60 games four times in his entire career, which includes six years in Cleveland, two years in Boston and three years in Brooklyn. I mean, that's an 11-year career, four of which he has played more than 60 games. That's crazy. That's crazy.

I don't know what they're going to do, man. I really don't know what they're going to do. The playoffs are here, and you can make every game feel like a game seven on Fandul Sportsburg, an official partner of the NBA. Fandul is hooking you up with free bets throughout the playoffs, and it doesn't matter if you're a new customer or if you already have

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Fandul.com. Gambling problem, call 1-800 at gambler or visit fandul. com slash RG in Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Virginia. In Arizona, call 1-800-9-7-7-7-7. In Arizona, call 1-8-8-8-7-7-7-7. In Indiana, call 1-800-9 with it. In Louisiana, call 1-877-7-7-7-0-0.

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Well, the Yonis in Milwaukee, though they have looked fantastic, and Grayson Allen has been out of his mind since the Middleton injury and they are pulverizing the Bulls. So much for that door being open, huh? Well, but we talked about, you know, you asked me about the Middleton thing and I said, it's not going to show up this round, but it will the next one. That's where it can hurt you. And so Boston is now catching Milwaukee without Chris Middleton and also a team. that is not wildly comfortable playing a bunch of half-court basketball either, right?

They're better out in space. And so it's going to be very fascinating with this Boston defense to see what they can do with Janus and how they handled that. And also, if the Bucks have the guys that can step up in the absence of Middleton. They have, obviously, with him out against Chicago. But as we know, the Boston thing, that's a different deal. And that's why for Boston, getting Robert Williams back is going to be such a significant benefit in this next round. And by the way, he looks pretty good. I mean, physically, would you agree there about Robert Williams?

I mean, he dunked on their whole damn team. With Ben Simmons watching in the background, right? well i mean like having boston just can play any style they can beat up any type of team they can match up with anybody and you're right like for milwaukee here pat conning going off what was he six of six or sorry grace and allan going off the other night going out what was he six to seven the other night from three right

seven of eight six to seven he only missed one shot uh you're a hundred percent right not having chris middleton and they'll pop up more next round against Boston. Though, I will say this, boot and holes are rolling with that three big lineup with Janice, Lopez, and Portis. That first game after the Middleton injury, they really seemed to catch Chicago off guard.

And that is certainly going to be a handful for any team to contend with with that amount of size in the front court. And Janus, he remains magnificent. He is still the best player on the court. So you can't count out the bucks in a series against the Celtics just because they won't have Chris Middleton. But that absolutely hurts them a lot. And I think way more so than a lot of people realize, even though, look, Chris Middleton, people understand how good he is.

But I still don't know if nationally people realize how great he could be. We saw him score 40 in the finals. He's had so many big nights. He is so important for their perimeter defense, for their perimeter shot, creation. Not having him against Boston gives you one less defender against Tatum and Brown, potentially Marcus Smart

in certain situations. The domino effect for Milwaukee is extremely negative not having Chris Milton out there. The other series and I think that if we, I think there was a bit of shock that the Nets

were able to get swept. But the other game that was going on simultaneously the people were able to flip over to if they were watching the Boston Brooklyn game was that Toronto Sixers game. And we were just talking about the Ben Simmons deal. Think about how much talk and how many words we wasted on Ben Simmons and then how many words we wasted on James Hardin and then the deal between those two teams. And I mean, taking the survey this morning, it has been a lose-lose for both teams.

so far with them never getting Simmons on the court and Philly getting James Hardin on the court, but certainly not the James Hardin that you give up. You know, even Seth Curry and Andre Drummond and the rest for.

You know, Toronto has clawed their way back into this thing. Doc Rivers, I think if you're Philly, you at least hold on to the fact that he has always been a guy that's really been able to rally the troops when things have gone wrong. Oh, wait, he's six of 22 in his last close, 22 closeout games or something like that. I don't know, man. Like Toronto, they get back Barnes, they get back, Daddy is Young, they lose Fred Van Vleet.

and they just were the better team by a pretty wide margin last night. You've got MBE who needs surgery in the offseason. You got Harden doing playoff hardened again. And you got Doc doing playoff dock again. And I don't know, man. Like maybe Philly will be able to take care of business. But could you imagine if this thing goes to a game seven? If Toronto is somehow able to tie this thing up,

after they just look dead in the water, this would be the ultimate. The absolute, and credit to Seaccom and credit to Toronto. What do you make of this last night, Kemp? I mean, in some ways with Philadelphia, the Joel Embed injury, it's not like he's struggling necessarily.

It continues to come down to James Hardin for me. with his performance. Four of 11 last night, still lacking burst off the dribble. So many guys on this Raptors roster have been able to effectively can contain him with all of their length on that end of the floor.

Throughout the series, we've seen a number of different guys do a great job against him. And Hardin, it just doesn't seem like he's able to generate the same amount of space he has ever in the past. Even compared to last season, I don't think Hardin looks the same.

And so you got, you get him getting contained by OG and Scotty Barnes and precious Achua all these guys that's part particularly OG doing a hell of a job on him this Raptor's team since they got Scotty Barnes back it it just seems like things are clicking more for them with the playmaking that he provides in addition to the versatile defense the size and then see acum Achua just playing their asses off man like precious Achua you saw him down at Memphis Hasn't he suddenly become the guy that people imagined him to be at Memphis?

Like he's become that guy in the playoffs for Toronto. Well, and one of the things when we, I obviously saw Precious his entire Memphis career. And one of the things that I always told people is you're not going to have to worry about that kid playing hard. Just a freco motor, really. And a hell of an athlete, for sure. I'm really happy for him because I thought he was drafted. Sometimes this happens with players. We talk about opportunity and fit so many times, Kev.

I thought he was drafted in the absolute ideal situation when he went to Miami. And luckily for him, instead of getting traded to some sorry franchise, he ends up in Toronto, another place that has been fantastic at putting guys in their best position to succeed and developing young talent. And so I'm really glad. I think he could have gone a different way possibly for Precious. But I do think that it has been to his great benefit to be in those two franchises to start off his NBA career. Well, I mean, isn't that the story of the Raptors roster too? I mean, the way Seacom has evolved, O.G. and Anobi.

Even Gary Trent since they got him from Portland has become a more well-rounded player. Chris Boucher, like up and down this roster. you can keep rattling off the names. Fred Van Bleed and undrafted guy. Granted he's been out, as you said. To me, that's the story of the Raptors is of player development. And the system and the culture that they have there and the togetherness that the roster plays with. It's impressive.

And the fact that they're even pushing this to six is a testament to that roster and their toughness together. So do you think that there's any reason to believe? here that Toronto can actually come back and do it though and be the first NBA team. Yes, of course. You do? You do feel that way. Yes. For God.

Their coaches, Doc Rivers, and one of their star players is James Hardin. Come on. I mean, do I think somebody could come back on them? I mean, and weirdly, look, I love Fred Van Vleet. You love Fred Van Vindvly. Fred Van Vindvly. is a shell of himself right now. Okay?

So I know he's banged up. So banged up that he had to miss that game. Him missing that game was good for the Raptors. I'm sorry. Just is. Why is that? Why do you say that? Because he can't stay in front of it. He's banged up and the maxi thinks too much.

It's too much. That's a quick dude, man. He's overwhelmed. The other thing for Fred against Philly, I mean, look, he's already a smaller guy. Now he's a smaller guy who's banged up. And Philly is enormous, enormous. Just a big team all the way around. You remember Fred, look, healthy, he struggled against them a couple of years ago.

And then he really cranked it up the two series after that. But Philly's a tough deal for him and he's a shell of himself. I saw those numbers posted this morning about, you know, how many points per possession that Philly's scoring with Van Vleet available. I mean, it is a, it was a sneaky benefit. Sometimes we talk about injuries really hurting teams. Every once in a while, you stumble into something that actually helps you. And this is not meant as a slight to Fred Van Ville.

I'm just saying in this particular matchup and the version that they have of Fred right now does not make them a better team and in fact they are better with him not as part of this right now. I mean, look, he's a fantastic player but he's not fantastic right now. And I do think it's better I think it's better for him

when he was out last night. and Siakum's just been out of his mind. He's been absolutely awesome. 28 and a half points, nine rebounds, six assists in the last two playoff games. Crazy. Crazy.

Yeah, like without Van Bleet, the value of Van Bleet is the shot creation and the shot making. But other guys have been able to step up. Like you just mentioned Siakum, who's been absolutely tremendous. It's Seacom, like, think about,

think about beginning of last season when people are talking about him as, you know, declining and or plateauing at the least. And this year, he becomes a point guard at certain points of the season, running the offense. We're seeing that again now with his facility, with his ability to facilitate. And having guys, like we just talked about Brooklyn with how rigid that roster is, Toronto has so many guys on their team that can shape shift into different roles. Seacob, if he needs to absorb more playmaking, he can't.

If he's playing with a superstar like Hawaii Leonard, he could be that off ball guy hitting spot-up freeze, cutting and slashing to the basket, locking in on defense. And the same is true for OG, the same is true for Scotty Barnes. This team is full of guys like that that can play different roles depending on what the game

and the series demands. So with Van Vlate to bring it back to him, we don't know with his hip injury if he'll be back in the series that it's been reported that he might not be. but I still think if you are able to get Van Bleet back to your point, maybe this isn't the best matchup for him. But there's always a moment to have like a little point guard

who can create a shot at the end of the shot clock for your team. And if Toronto is able to push this to seven and if Van Vleet is able to return to the court, we know how he can perform in big games. We know that going back to his time at college. So for Toronto, even though he's, this isn't the best matchup for him. I don't think that rules out the possibility of Finn Bleed having a major moment in the series.

I don't know about this series. Maybe if they could move on to the next one. He's just, you know, like, it makes him so much bigger. It puts the ball in Siakum's hands more. And they've exposed, you know, we talk about that size. Look at how big Toronto gets when Fred's not played. They got Gary Trent Jr., right? The rest of their roster that they played last night, Siacum, Ananobi.

Barnes, Birch, Achua, Boucher, Fad Young. I mean, that's everybody that played. Everybody that played in the game last night. Got one little guy in Gary Trent. That's it. The rest of him are all. And he's not little. No, he's not little of that.

One guy, you know. And the numbers are the numbers. Their defense has been much better without Fred on the floor. And again, that's because he's not the Fred Van Bleak that we thought was, you know, had the defensive prowess this year. He's not himself. That's, it happens. But just for right now, they kind of stumbled into being able to match up. And they themselves look like a big team.

Just a bunch of frigging six-eights out there flying around everywhere. And they look athletic as hell. And to hold that Philly team to 88 points is. At home in an elimination game? That's crazy, man. That's crazy. You know, I mean, holding somebody under 90 is harder than shit right now in the NBA. You know?

I mean, we just talked about how amazing Boston was in that series. They were giving up 100-something every game. They just helped Philly to less than 90. Wild. Wild to think about it. So, no, I wouldn't rule anything out with that Toronto. they get the game at home and then imagine that the pressure of game seven we saw that clippers team succumbed to it a couple of years ago if they could get it to game seven katie bar the

door right my god as if m b's not already haunted by that frigging franchise with the kawai shot oh yeah yes i'm sure that'll bring up great memories being back there right Oh, boy. One of the thing on precious, one of the thing on him, the job he's done defensively against Embed to. It's granted it's not a solo project. You know, there's help involved.

But he's a fight. And he's defended Embed more than anybody in the series for Toronto. Just going to get credit to that too. It's not just scoring. All right. How about that game you were at last night? You were at Dallas, Utah, right? Yes, sir.

I was. And the atmosphere was very, very impressive, Chris. I was very impressed by the Mavericks crowd because I've been in, you know, a good amount of arenas. And growing up a Celtics fan, I went to so many amazing games with amazing crowds

that are loud, blistering, loud, intense, plugged into everything that was happening. That's the way it felt with that Dallas crowd last night. It was terrific. I had a fun time. I was sitting by Jonathan Charg, Jake Ile, man. We were both hanging out at the game. Wow. It was a great time, man. I had a good time.

Three for 30 from three point range for the Utah Jazz last night. Holy. Three for 30. Those rims, I think Tim Kato had the story at the athletic, how you can hear the rim noise loud in the arena. There was a lot of clanking for Utah last night. A lot of it. I heard a lot of clanking of the rim. Yeah, three for 30 is hard to do, isn't it? That's very difficult to do.

do. Just a ridiculous. That's a ridiculous number, three for 30. And look, I was just given credit to the Toronto Raptors for holding the Sixers under 90. How about holding the team under 80? Yeah, holding them under 80. I mean, like, I'm curious from watching from home, did you sense Utah was a broken team? Like, were they showing clips of the huddle, the bench?

Like, what were your impressions of the spirit of the jazz? Oh, God. Their body language has been terrible. Yes. The whole series, of course. Yeah, all year, I guess. Not just the series. Well, and they can try to act like, oh, yeah, it's not a problem. It's not an issue.

But, like, there's been something off with them all year long. There's been something off with them. And then you saw, you know, this. People can say whatever they want about, like, oh, well, you don't have to like your co-workers or whatever. else. But like, we've seen those things happening in the media where it was like, Rudy Gobert taking a shot about, you know, you see Devin Booker and how much better he's gotten at defense or whatever else, which is obviously a shot at Donovan. And then you see

the other shots that are taken about the way they play and guys not playing defense or whatever else. And then they go and ask Donovan Mitchell and Donovan Mitchell says, I think it's immature that you speak out in the public. I mean, this is stuff that all happened through. about the season. Throughout the season. And it wasn't like stuff that, you know, people just made up. It was like legit drama. And you can see the teams that are connected.

Look, even in their, when they were like coming back, this is one of the things that stood out to me. When they were coming back in, what game was that? Was it three? Was it, was it game three that they were coming back in? Or maybe four. I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I'm talking about? I'm talking about it. It was in Utah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the game there. Yeah, and they, remember, they went small and they start coming back in the game and they get out a little run. They pan over to the bench. There's, watch these other teams.

There's nobody standing up. Nobody. Nobody standing up cheering. There's none of it. It's really strange. Honestly, like, I just don't think that they are a tight group. and I think that that, you know, that gets exposed when it comes playoff time because you really do have to be the all for one, one for all pulling the same road.

You know, we talk about the difference between Boston and the Nets to start off this pod. You saw that happening with Utah last night. As soon as things don't go their way, they fracture. and even when things are going their way, you don't feel like there's the amount of joy that is happening with these other teams, right? Are you surprised Quinn Snyder went with Whiteside behind Gobert instead of going straight to the smaller lineup with Pascal in that first half?

Whiteside had a rough night, but you just mentioned their comeback when they went smaller, when that was without Gobert in the court. I would, going into the game, my expectation was, okay, we're going to not see white side tonight. We're going to see that small lineup when it's not go bare. And it's not like their defense has been great big.

That's the crazy thing. And go look up the numbers. Their defense hadn't been great big either, you know? So your defense isn't great big and your offense is horrendous when you stay big. And your defense is not great when you're small. but your offense is really good when you're small. Like, I think it goes to speak to, you know,

so many times where coaches in many cases care so much more about the defense event than the offense event. Figured the buckets are going to come, but the truth is their offense playing with a center has been horrendous this series. They've been much better offensively without playing a center, which is not necessarily what you speak. And if the defense is, it's not like the defense has been great when they're playing the centers.

So that's the crazy thing to me. At least you've got a puncher's chance if your offense can get some buckets, you know, when you go small. Even if your defense is a tinge worse, at least I can score. They can't score, you know? Obviously, in three for 30 last night from three, that's just so extreme that I don't even know what's a drink. from it. I don't, I don't care what kind of shots they're getting. I mean, come on, three for 30. That's just, that's out of character for anyone. That's ridiculous. Well, I mean, we're talking about Utah not having an identity. And meanwhile, Dallas has

found their identity with who they are and what they can become. You got Dwight Powell starting games, the lob threat, but then you're able to go with Cleva off the bench and play with more spacing with five out offense, whether it's with. with Luca attacking off the bounce or Brunson or Dinwiddie. Again, to tie this to Brooklyn, we were talking about having so many guys who can handle the ball. Well, Dallas, Dallas doesn't have a lot who do, but what they do have is three really good ones. And then a bunch of guys who at least know their roles and play their roles at a high level. And for Dallas, with Luca looking like Luca, like that stretched in the third quarter last night was unbelievable.

It felt like he was unstoppable. there was literally nothing Utah could do. The crowd was going crazy. And next round, it's going to either be New Orleans or Phoenix with either a without Booker or a limited booker. There's a real path here for Dallas to get to the West Finals. Oh, I agree completely. And I think that one of the things that this playoffs has taught us so far is once you get in there, you never know the way it's going to play out.

because and and how injuries can take a toll on the team. We talked about Embed needing the surgery in the off season. We talked about how Phoenix has lost Devin Booker for a amount of time there. Dallas had lost Luca Donchich. And so that gave a real opening for the jazz that they simply did not take advantage of. and then you look at the other series that have taken place so far. And Chris Middleton is no longer there for the bucks. Kyle Lowry is out for Miami right now.

I mean, like all across the board, Keev. It's like, man, just get in there, get yourself to the playoffs, and you never know the way this stuff's going to break because we've already had. We're not even to the end of the first round. and we've got like real future altering injuries that have taken place possibly. And if you can be healthy, you know, Dallas getting to go, if they match up with Phoenix in the next round, Dallas versus Phoenix without Devin Booker is a much different proposition than Dallas versus Phoenix with Devin Booker, you know.

Or for that matter, playing against the Pelham. Colicans. Who knows? Colicons might be able to beat Phoenix without Booker. They certainly looked capable the other night. You know? And when you and I talked about them on Friday, I said, is there a chance? Brandon Ingram's the best player in the series. You know, over the course of the series, that the team with the best player throughout that series. and I don't know how you can watch some of these games and say that's not so because he's been absolutely out of control, awesome. Ingram has come alive. I mean, this is, he is performing like the player.

People imagined him to be in the most outrageous way when he got compared to Kevin Durantz. He's playing like KD right now. It really is at that level. Yeah, yeah, right now, yeah, right now better than Kevin Durant, which is, you know, insane to say, but true. But he is carrying an offensively, they're getting the contributions they need from others on the roster as well. And, I mean, the crazy part is CJ hasn't had that game where he pops off yet like he can. But I'm so, I'm so amazed by the job Jose Alvarado and Herb Jones have done on Chris Paul. Jose Alvarado, he has that sneak attack move on Chris Paul, stealing the ball from behind.

Chris Paul doesn't take a single shot while defended by Alvarado in game three, 15 possessions. I'm sorry, game four, 15 possessions. Elvarado defends Chris Paul. CP3 doesn't take a single shot in pick and roll situations, Herb, and that Pelicans defense are limited scoring chances by Chris Paul. the defense on New Orleans is absolutely sensational. Some of the blocks Herb Jones had, dude. Oh, my God.

What on the world? No. And it's going to be, that is such a great storyline that I'd to see how Chris Paul responds. Right? Yeah. I talked about it. You know, I do kind of roll my eyes with a lot of these, with a lot of the analysis where it's like, oh, yeah, Trey Young or Kevin Durant or Chris Paul.

or Jop Marant to whatever. Like these guys, you can watch these teams selling out to stop those guys. I think if you're Phoenix, you've got to sell out on Ingram. I do. You got to start treating him like, you know,

Boston's treating. You know, and if Bacallam kills you, if Valachutus kill the rest of them kill you, then so be it. But like, this guy has just roasted them. And, you know,

in the absence of Booker, You can, the extra attention that is paid to Chris Paul. Now, Chris Paul, you're a superstar because you can figure this stuff out. But you see these teams that have just decided this guy is not going to be the reason that we go down. And even the best of the best, like the rant, like Paul, like Trey, like Morant, like they've struggled. They've struggled. And the other guys have to step up. and I'll be super fascinated to see what happens with Chris Paul and kind of what's his angle going up against New Orleans tonight.

But that thing, that series is fun, fun series. And again, a great lesson in you never know. Devin Booker's there. It's a different world. I think we all admit that, but he ain't there. So now it's a fair fight. even when he was there it's not like Norlands

wasn't competitive they were and now the door is wide open as you said it's not having Booker it changes the equation for Chris Paul now that Herb Jones and Alvarado are on him full time and that makes his life extremely difficult for being

picking up the story in fairness in fairness when we saw Booker there in fairness when we saw Booker the last time we saw Booker there he had 31 points and a half Right? I mean, yeah, yeah.

That's tough. He was on his way to maybe a 50 spot in a playoff game. So they clearly miss him greatly. Other ones we have tonight, you know, I guess we counted out the Raptors and now they've got a puncher's chance. Could you see any circumstance where Atlanta can crawl back into it against Miami.

No. Me neither. How about Denver? I'd be stunned. I'd be stunned if they don't get run out. Run out? You go that far, run out. Yeah, I mean, back at home,

make some adjustments. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, I think it, I think it's tough. I think it's over the, over the course of a series. Um, you know,

They try to make that thing like Rorical again. I think it's hard to win in Denver. I do. But, yeah, I would be, yeah, I think, I think the Warriors are going to run them out in game five. But, hey, I'm willing to be, I'm willing to be wrong on that. Any thoughts on Memphis, Minnesota tonight? I'll obviously be there. All right, so you'll be there tonight, Chris, you said.

I'll be there. energy is going to be high in that crowd tonight. Desmond Bain going off. With Jah, where has your assessment been of his performance overall? Because defensively, I've been underwhelmed. Offensively, it's really been a lot of Bain. Has Jah underwhelmed compared to expectations after the great season he had? I guess that's the number one thought on my mind with Memphis.

I think, look, I don't think this. there have been many guys that have averaged 20, 11, and 8 that have gotten beat up as he has. Yeah, yeah. And solely because of inefficiency as a score in defense.

Yeah, I mean, his defense has not been great. But he had 15 assists in the last game, and I think what people don't understand is when they're watching Desmond Payne, when they're watching Tyos Jones, when they're watching some of these other guys go off, there's a sellout.

that goes on against Jah Morant that enables all of that to happen. Like Chris Finch said as much after the game. We know they go as Jog goes. So they're constantly making him see two guys. He doesn't get to just drive past people and go to the basket. So the idea is make the right basketball play. But because he's not scoring 30 or 40,

you know, people are beating him up over it. he had 15 assists in the last game. And you look at these looks that Bain gets, that Clark gets, that Tyos gets. I mean, these guys are wide-ass open half the time. Now, why do you think that is? It's because of the sellout that takes place against Joss. So for a team to be selling out defensively to slow him down

and him to be as a third-year player conducting himself in the way that he has, I don't know. I'm not worried about him. I'm not. And I also think that, you know, I talked to you about this at the beginning of the series, and this is when the Grizzlies took a ton of free throws in game one. I told you it does not favor them.

The more free throws that are played, the more dead ball basketball there is, the worse it is. And this entire series has been an absolute ref show, a ref show. There have been 62 free throws a game. A game. And it drives me crazy. I'm watching, you know,

I watch that entire Celtics Brooklyn series, infinitely more physical teams. Way more physical series. And you watch last night, they're like 40 free throws, which is a, you know, normal amount. There's 62 a game in the Grizzlies T.

Wolf series. It sucks so far. And so here's hoping that we get to watch two excited. teams decide these games, at least for the last few. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. But yeah.

You don't like to watch Scott Foster, Bill Kennedy, you're on the fan? All these guys are not a ref fan, Chris? That's not why you tune into games? So I've been, I've been on a Zarb fan. Yo, I was worried about like this ridiculous number of free throws that have been taken. And keep in mind, this is not me. You know, Taylor Jenkins did his complaining, and obviously there was a bad whistle in game four. But over the course of four games and the series is two to two, I have complained from the very beginning.

And that was when the Grizzlies took more free throws. I'm tired of watching disjointed basketball. It's been the whole damn series. 60-something free throws a game. They only play 48 minutes. Do you know, they have only played, there's played 16 quarters in this series. Six of them have had less than 15 free throws in the quarter.

Six of them out of 16 quarters. So now I'm like, I'm so tired of watching reps. And I wake up this morning and they announced the reps, guess who's in charge Mark Davis just who I needed if I didn't want the reps to be involved Now I will tell you that during the course of this

conversation we're having Someone texted me possibly Positive news Which is that yes Mark Davis is in charge But Adam Silver is going to be in the audience tonight Ah

So maybe we actually get to watch basketball. I don't know. These games have, do you know, these games have been over three hours long, routinely, three hours. Like, too much. They've just ruined. This is two of the most fun, fly up and down, exciting teams in the lead. And it's just been a rough show. It's, it's so disappointing.

be. So I'm just hoping there's a lot of basketball tonight. That's all I'm hopeful for. I hope you get it. I do. And I want to come to Memphis for a game too, Chris. You should. I want to go to Memphis. After being in Dallas last night from the game, I want to do a little bit more traveling during the playoffs. I want to go come down to Memphis and watch a game with you, even though you're working that night. Oh, I'll see you still. Yeah, but certainly for the, you know, if they get past this series, there'll be a billion people in for Grizzlies Warriors. I promise you that.

Oh, yeah. No, but we'll see. We'll see what takes place tonight. These games have been fantastic. Oh, by the way, Jha winning most improved player of the year. I mean, goofy.

I do think that he improved. I do think that he took a leap to superstar, which is a very difficult leap to make. But I'm going to be fair here. I don't know anybody else that's one most improved player. Remember, we went through it a couple weeks ago. So I'm not going to act like it's a big deal now. And do I think he improved?

For sure. I think he improved. There's probably more deserving guys, you know, probably. But I don't really care about the award that much. So I ain't going to make a big deal about it either way. You know, when you made your picks, I was like, when you made your picks, I was like, I'm fine with it. You know, do I think, if it would have gone to Jordan Poole,

I would have said deserving. If it would have gone to Desmond Bain, if it would have gone to Tyrese Maxie, if it would have gone to DeJante Murray. I mean, there's a ton of guys. Yeah, there's tons of guys that improved greatly this year. Right? But there's no question.

As this year went on, and I was talking to people about the Grizzlies, They're like, what the hell? I said, you know, one of the things that took place. And this is why Jaws getting the criticism. He started the All-Star game. He played at a superstar level throughout the season. And much like the Grizzlies, typically you go from like play in, scratch your way into the playoffs team to middle of the pack team to then like home court advantage team.

Like they skipped that middle step. And they skip that middle step in large part to Marraud. Grant skipping the step of, you know, star level player or, you know, really great player on a really good team. Like, they went straight up to the second best team in the league. And so, I don't know, you know, he improved a lot. He did. He's awesome. But I think one of the reasons that the, I think John tweeted this, the league's in great shape because you see how many guys improved.

so greatly this season. You know, there's a lot of guys out there putting in the work that is very noticeable. Including Ben Simmons. Stop it. Oh, boy. Oh, well, thoughts and prayers to Kevin Durant, for sure. Yep, absolutely. He brought it on himself, but we, he brought it on himself, but we still feel bad for it.

Yeah, we do. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez. Kevin, I will talk to you on Thursday. I will talk to you on Thursday. Thursday, yeah, Thursday. I'm looking forward to it. Have a good week.