The Mismatch - Steph Curry’s Greatness, Rise of the Zone, and a Look Around the Association | The Void

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

Welcome to 'The Void,' as Kevin O'Connor brings you deep inside the NBA with the people who know it best. In today’s episode, KOC sits down with ‘Thinking Basketball’ author and YouTuber Ben Taylor. They break down Steph Curry’s greatness fresh off him breaking the 3-point record (02:46). Steph has been the early favorite for MVP this season and they dive into his career legacy. While the spotlight is on Steph Curry, Ben points out that Nikola Jokic is quietly having a Steph Curry–like season (13:42). They then discuss the rise of zone defenses in the NBA (21:09). Julius Randle has struggled this season after having a career year last season, and the guys debate whether he will ever get back his previous level of success (30:20). Ben agrees with KOC that the Celtics tandem of Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown can still be the guys, but the team needs to put better pieces around them (38:43). In previewing tonight’s matchup between the Clippers and Jazz, Ben goes off because no one is realizing how good the Jazz’s offense has been this season (46:33). Host: Kevin O'Connor Guests: Ben Taylor Producers: Jessie Lopez and Dylan Berkey Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Football is back, and so is the Ringer NFL show. Coming at you five days a week with wall-to-wall coverage from recapping the Sunday games, giving a player perspective, deep dives, and previewing the coming slate. Check out the Ringer NFL show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, thank you for listening to The Void. This is my new weekly show publishing every Wednesday on the mismatch podcast feed. You're still always going to hear me and Chris Vernon every Tuesday and Friday, but today we're talking about what happened on Tuesday night.

Steph Curry became the NBA's all-time leader in three-point makes surpassing Ray Allen. It was an amazing night, a great win for the Warriors against the Knicks. And I'm excited to be talking about it with my friend Ben Taylor, who you might know from his YouTube channel or his podcast called Thinking Basketball. Ben, to me, is one of the best people analyzing the NBA today. So, I mean, I was really excited to get into Steph Curry with him. we talked about his sustained success into his mid-30s, what it means for his place in NBA history. We talked about the Warriors overall, too, including some of the innovative stuff they're doing on the defensive end of the floor.

We got into Yokic, how he's even better than his MVP season. And we got into a whole bunch of other teams, too, in both the East and the Western Conference. I really liked what we got into with the Utah Jazz and what they're doing on the offensive end of the floor. So I appreciate you listening to today's episode of The Void. Here's my conversation with Ben Taylor. Ben, how are you doing today? Kevin, I'm psyched up.

We were just talking right before we pressed record. I don't know if we've ever talked about basketball. When we get together, we talk about everything but basketball. So it's going to be exciting to see where this conversation goes. It's unusual. I mean, our first time meeting was a John and Vinnie's in-person meeting. We have a lot to discuss about basketball. Steph Curry became the NBA's all-time three-point leader last night,

suppressing Ray Allen and a Tuesday night win for the Warriors over. the Knicks in Madison Square Garden, the same team that everyone thought would take him in the draft. In the same building, he dropped 54 points in 2013. Steph didn't explode like he did back then, but he had 22 points on 19 shots, and this is still an incredible historic night for one of the best players in the history of the NBA. Ben, even at age 33, Steph is still in his prime, and I just, I couldn't help but think watching last night how I just love to tune in for this dudes games. It's so fun to watch Steph Curry play basketball.

I just love to watch him play. So that's my first question for you. What do you love most about watching Steph? Probably the joy that he plays with. I think that's if I had to pick one thing, that would probably be it. I mean, he's incredibly entertaining to watch just with his like

perpetual motion and all of the tricks and kind of gadgets he has away from the ball and the fact that he's like this six two as a fellow 6-2 dude who can't imagine getting my shot off in NBA games like that. Like all that stuff's very entertaining. But it's always nice for me when a player's rolling to have that kind of like joy exude

out on the screen. So yeah, I'll go with that. You could feel the exact energy you're describing, Ben. Like end of the third quarter, Steph creates space for his dribble with a flutter. Then he hits that deep three to extend the warrior's lead. And then late in the fourth, he put the lead over 10 with that three sprinting away from the rim. It's a game full of joy, but his scoring can also take the life out of teams, too. I mean, he just doesn't in a different way. Everything that he does on the court, he does in a different way

than most other guys. I mean, his ability to make an impact on the court without even touching the ball is unparalleled. The way he operates as a screener, either using them or setting them. I mean, I'm reminded of a video. You made a great video recently about how Steph Curry created 33 straight points against the calves. Many of them, like, he didn't even touch the ball. And I thought that was one of the best videos you've ever made, man. Oh, thank you, Kevin. I mean, the screening is part of the moving.

And when you have the gravity he has, it means when you're cutting without the ball, everyone's worried about you rushing into space and getting open. So that allows you to set a screen, right, in a sense that you stop and you hit the brakes, and now they have to worry about someone else. on top of that, he's just like, he's a nasty little fellow, right? He's gotten in the weight room over the years.

He talks about deadlift PRs and things like that. And all the guards you mentioned in that list of guards and where they kind of stack up with screen numbers, like Curry is just thicker and fiercer when he gets into his screens. And so you have this combination of all the off ball tricks, all the motion that he plays with, the threat of him as a shooter. And then there's a, there's a famous. play that Steve Kerr stole from Iowa State called Cyclone, which I've talked about before, where he's basically flooding up from the baseline. He's like sprinting up from the baseline,

like he's going to pop off a screen at the top of the key, and then he just slams on the brakes, and he becomes the screener. And I think that's what makes his screen so devastating. You got the physicality in it, but there's also the fact that he's switching on a dime from being a shooter and a shooting threat to freeing up one of his teammates. The defense is still occupied with him. And so you saw a number of those plays in the Cleveland game where he's like running around. He's on fire. They're freaking out about him. They're trying to deny the pass.

And then you start backdooring and then you become a screener. And it's just extremely difficult to stop. Yeah, man. Steph is a guy. He just does so much more with off ball screens and other guards like Dame, Trey, Jha, Hardin. And he plays with so much more emotion. It's just different, man. And, you know, one thought on my mind, though Steph is obviously an outlier level shooter,

what he does is more than shooting ability. It's like you said. So is there anything you think other players can actually learn from him? You know what? I think it's a combination of all of them. And I'm glad you mentioned this because I think we do a disservice to Steph when we call him the best shooter ever. Because to me it's kind of like saying Jordan's the best dunker ever

or the best rim finisher ever. Like it's true and it's a component of the game. But all these other things are what make it possible. Like if he just stood in the corner and shot that way, he wouldn't have nearly the value. If he didn't have the handle or the passing or some of the screening that we've been talking about, like it's the complete package. So I think other players can take things from him in terms of quick release, creating space, perpetual motion. I mean, that in and of itself is another thing where we say the guy's the best shooter ever,

but he's also like an endurance athlete on the basketball court. He's like the second coming of John Havlchek or something, just running around and not stopping. Has anyone studied Steph's like endurance capacity in a lab? Has that been done? I mean, it should be done. It's wild what he does, man. Did you see the movie 14 peaks? I think it's on Netflix.

I don't believe I have. No. What's 14 peaks about them? It's about the 14, 8,000 meter mountains in the world and climbing this guy who tries to climb them. and they study his lungs. They do these endurance tests. And I, like, thinking about this, I wonder how Curry would do if you plugged him into that environment where you're like, bike for an hour at deprived oxygen levels.

And let's see what your nervous system looks like. Because, right, that's the part of the shooting thing, Kevin. Are you saying you want to kidnap Steph Curry and test out his lung capacity? Kidnap is a strong word. I mean, borrow. Borrow. Borrow. was what I would say.

But it's the kind of thing where, like, you can't be the greatest shooter unless your nervous system can perform under that stress, right? Like when you're exhausted. So I think it's the whole thing. You could take bits and pieces probably. But it's the package, the combination of the package and the insane outlying hand-eye coordination that I think makes him step curry. Ben, I was looking at your top 40 from back in 2017. On Backpix.com, you posted your top 40 greatest NBA careers of all time. And at the time, like I said, in late 2017, you had Steph 20th.

And just to give some context around that ranking, you had Chris Paul and Charles Barclay right behind him, right ahead of him with Steve Nash and Dirk Novitsky. Steph was 20th, three years ago, four years ago. Where is Steph today on your top 40 list? Ooh, I'm due for an update. I get requests a lot for an update. This is also a request right here. A live request?

Yes. I mean, obviously he didn't have, for the way that works, it's about looking at the value of on-court careers. And so he misses a season in 2020. So obviously he's missing that season. But you add in 2021, that was before 2019, which to me was another MVP type season, finished third last year, and MVP voting second most first place votes. And obviously, is it fair to say he's the favorite right now for MVP? Yeah, he's the favorite right now.

I mean, Tim Bond Temps did his most valuable player, Strawpole of 101 media members, and 94 voted for Steph, his MVP. So he's definitely the favorite. He's in the driver's seat. So he's still playing at this level. He's still at this prime level, you know, that we've seen for what, since at least 2015,

although in 2013, when he came back from the ankle, I think he was incredibly underrated and dangerous already. He finished fifth maybe in 2000. He had a really high MVP. standing in 13 or 14 that people often overlook. So you take the totality of that, and I think he's easily kind of had a top 20 career. The question for me when I do the update is how close is you going to start getting to those top 10 guys? Those top 10 or 11 guys, your Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal's of the world. Like, they did it at a high level,

and then they had the full body of work, and then even the post-prime years. Like, we're seeing it with LeBron, Kareem. Just these guys that continue to put in two, three, four, five extra seasons. Tim Duncan had it. Like, they evolve as a player. So we haven't seen that from Steph, but man, he's like, I would say definitely top 15 at this point. And heading higher for most people. And heading higher in the sense that he's 33 years old.

And you mentioned these guys having post prime, Steph is still in his prime. I mean, he is just as great, if not greater now than he was during. his unanimous MVP season. And, you know, he has a game where, like, if he's assuming good health, Ben, Steph at 40 years old could be Seth. He can be. Well, that's an interesting way to put it. Yeah.

I'm just saying, like, Steph could become a guy who's doing a lot off ball, not as much on ball, but sprinkling it in here and there and surviving on defense. Like his post prime could last a long, long time. So, I mean, could he rise into that top five, top 10? He just broke the three-point record. He could have another MVP coming. The Warriors right now are one of the best teams in all of the NBA with one of the best defenses, one of the best offenses.

They could win the finals again. And who knows what could be coming in the future? So my method aside, which is on-court career performance, I think for legacy, I think the way a lot of people think about it. If they get another championship, he gets another MVP. First of all, it would be six years apart between MVP's. Only Will Chamberlain has ever done that. that. Wow. And that was in the 60s and that was his rookie year to his seventh year, 1960 to

1966. Wow. That's the widest amount of time between MVP's. I didn't know that. That's crazy. Well, it's not in the sense that you say like Jordan won his first, Jordan won his last kind of thing. Sure. It's the longest space in between one MVP and another for the same player, right? So he has a six year gap. And I think that kind of retrofits what happened in 17, 18, 19, for us. a lot of people. And then especially if they win a championship, you're going to look at the Warriors Dynasty and you're going to think more about Steph and Draymond and Clay and the fact that they've been doing it for, oh, oh, now it's been seven, eight, nine years versus this blip on the radar previously. And I think it changes everything. If he comes out of the decade with four or five

championship rings, I genuinely think there's going to be people who prefer his career over LeBron. He's just a completely different. Yeah, I know. It's crazy to think about because LeBron has been stuck with Jordan. But I mean, the amount of legacy momentum that would change if they were to win another championship or two, which is way down the road and we can discuss how realistic that is. But I think for people that look at it from that prism, having studied historical rankings for the better part of three decades, like he will definitely be discussed as a top five guy. And right now, like you said, he is that MVP favorite. 94. first place votes, according to Tim Bond Temps,

straw poll at ESPN. Kevin Durant was second. He's having another great season for Brooklyn. Yannis was third, having another historic season, another excellent defensive season, in addition to everything he does on offense. Last year's MVP, Nicole Yokic finished fourth. And it was a distant fourth. You didn't like his placement at all, Ben. You tweeted this out. You said, Yokic finishing a distant fourth, an MVP would be one of the most ridiculous results in the history of the award.

Ridiculous. That's the way I read it in my head. Good. I'm glad you read it that way. Yes. Why do you feel that way, Ben? Well, I mean, ridiculous is a little inflammatory, but it would be completely unprecedented. And I think that's what people maybe didn't realize in terms of what I was saying. Like, there are no historic seasons in NBA history that have low MVP vote share. Even all of the seasons where people say, oh, Jordan scored 37 a game or Kobe had this 2006 season or Bernard King's, like, it doesn't matter what you throw up there.

They all have high MVP shares. They might not win the award, but they come second or third with like, you know, 50 or 60% of the vote share, something like that. So in the strong man, Yokic was in the 20s. It was like 24% of the vote share. That's just historically unprecedented. So now the question becomes, do you not think it's an historic season? That's the only thing left for me. Or do we have four historic seasons?

is that the counter argument that voters might have putting Katie and Yanis ahead of him? I don't know how you'd make that argument given. So who do you think? Who do you think is this is an interesting question. Like statistically in the regular season right now, who's the best scorer in the NBA? I'm sure most people would say staff. It's Yokic. Okay.

Yokich has the highest scoring rate in the league over 30 points per 75 possessions. He's 11 percentage points ahead of true shooting. league average true shooting. You're basically talking about a season that's almost rivaling Steph Curry's 2016 season. Like no one has that efficiency. He's the best post score in the game.

He's Dirk Nevitzky from the mid-range. He's 39% from three. And that's not even his best skill. It's passing. Did you see his touch pass? To Aaron Gordon over the weekend. We've seen him do it 100 times, but it never gets old.

And so the thing about just sticking with his office, He is an historic offensive players, one of the best offensive players ever. He's having one of the best offensive seasons ever. And he doesn't require, like, he doesn't take up all the oxygen in the room. He doesn't need to have the ball and pound it and have everyone else stand in the corner. It's this constant dotting and moving and going to the middle of the floor and facilitating and setting everyone else up. And it's infectious, right? Like, he made that touch pass to Aaron Gordon.

did you see Aaron Gordon's behind the back? Oh, yeah. Like, what's going on? He's, the Yokich dust is rubbing. It's like Larry Bird with the 86 Celtics. The big stat you mentioned there, Ben, he logs 99.9 touches per game, according to NBA.com. The time of possession, though, is only 4.1 minutes. Just to put that in comparison, Hardin, 92 touches, nine minutes of possession.

Luca, 90 touches, 9.4 minutes of possession time. LeBron 90 touches 6.6 minutes of possession. Yokic doesn't touch the ball for very long when he does because he makes these rapid decisions on the floor that keep the ball moving, keep constant motion around him. And that's why Denver is so lethal in the half court because of him. I mean, he's playing with, you know, almost replacement parts outside of Gordon and, you know, maybe Will Barton and Morris. They've done a solid job, but obviously. They have some solid players. but their depth is really lacking with the number of bodies that they've lost.

Yeah, I mean, they've been decimated. They're trying to get production in these lineups from someone like Zeke Noggi or, you know, things like that. Who's leading the NBA in three, four percent of the level. Yeah, he came out. Well, I mean, it's easy when Yokic is setting you up for these wide open shots. But like we talked about Curry and his motion. With Yokic, it's a little different. He's literally a centerpiece.

He literally is moving to the middle part of the floor constantly, touching the ball, making a decision. And the entire offense is built around this, but it still allows other guys to do stuff. So he comes in when he has the ball, if there's an opening, he hits it with the pass. But this is what I love about him, Kevin. If there's an opening, he also attacks it with his body.

So you can't switch certain pick and rolls with him because he'll just immediately take you into the post. On the flip side, if he's setting the screen and there's no switch, he can pop or flow to an area where now he's a 39% wide open catch and shoot three point shooter. Oh, and if you try to over rotate off that, then he's taking that advantage that you gained and whipping it for something better, possibly manipulating the defense for these really high leverage layup passes. I mean, you add that to the statistical profile right now, you mentioned it. He has the highest

on off in NBA history, right? His team is 30 points better per 100 when he's on the floor. Unlikely that holds, but it's just a bulletproof argument for an historic. level season, which I truly think it is. And it would just be unprecedented for him to be a distant four. I don't think you can say that about the other guys, frankly. And with Yokic, you said it in there. Everything he does is instant. Switch to pick and roll.

You get a smaller guy on him. He's immediately diving down inside. Constantly making instant decisions. And I think that for him is translated to defense now. That rapid processing that we've seen from him on offense for many years, it's translating on defense now. I mean, there were plays where I believe Vutrovich driving down the paints, spun

right into a hook shot. Yokic's hand was there before Vooch was even getting into the move. Guys drive down the lane, Yokic is there using either his left or right arm to contest shots there before they know they're going to do it. He has a way of reading what offense is going to do

and his positioning length and pure size and strength, the coordination that he has all are coming together because he's in the best condition of his life now. I mean, he can move laterally at this point. You can't say anymore Yokic is a liability on defense.

You can't say that anymore. He's a very, very high level defender at this point of his career, Ben. And I think it's hard for people to kind of process this, Kevin, because of the way he looks and his history. The way he looks. You're judging chubby white men? No, I'm saying he's, you know, he's got a

can we go back to Larry Byrd? Like, he's got a, he's got a look that throws people. And I think it's hard for people to wrap their head around that like he's actually he's somewhere between a pretty good and good defender at this point. Like he's he's actually playing clearly positive defense on a nightly basis. They've put a system in around him that supports his kind of props up his weaknesses, supports his strengths.

He's great at reading the floor. He's got incredibly accurate fast hands you alluded to it earlier. He's a phenomenal defensive rebounder because as he's, he's gotten in better condition and as he's lost weight, he's still a bear, man. He's still a bruiser. He bangs with you down there. So those hands,

which I said are accurate and fast. They're also really soft and he's got really long arms. He's vacuuming in rebounds at the end of possessions. Like the entire body of work for a regular season player, I don't see how to attack it. I truly think we're seeing one of the great seasons. One of the pantheon seasons, if we could borrow a bill term, right?

Like, this is up there. The Warriors do it in a way that disguises the coverage. It's both man and zone. I mean, tracking cameras, I'm not sure, can always see that. Can you further explain how the Warriors are doing what they do and why it's an innovative way of playing defense? Kevin, you're like a database today. You're like a human computer.

You're like data from Star Trek. How are you getting all this information instantaneously? I have a poor memory except for basketball stats. That's all. That's it. I don't remember who has the stat. I just remember the number. That's all.

What are we? Zone and man. That was your question. Yeah, zone and man. Yeah, I think what struck me, I did not know when I started that that was going to be a 17-minute video. Because as I looked closer and closer and closer at the Warriors defense, it was like, wow, this is getting more complex. And they're doing stuff that is just, for lack of a better way to think about it, a higher level. They're like pushing concepts forward. And so in their man scheme, they have a lot. lot of if you see something, one guy zones up two players. If you see something, two guys zones up three players. If we trap the pick and roll, three guys zone up four players. And so the ability to

have that experience and know those rules and understand how to communicate with each other defensively then carries over to when you actually run a zone. And so it makes sense to me that not only are they running zone, but you're seeing box in one where, okay, we got one guy here. So four guys need to figure out how to communicate and zone up. We've got trying to and two. So two guys are on the ball. So what are the other three guys do? It's really fascinating that at the end, I think I referred to it as a hybrid system. And I think there's something there maybe for the future of NBA basketball, because if you can take some of these concepts, you can blend things together in a way that we haven't seen. And it's, I think there's a lot there, man. I think

it's, I think it's incredible. I mean, statistically, the heat, clippers and hornets play zone more than anybody. Are there any other teams playing zone like the Warriors do? I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. I think a lot of, you'll see a ton of teams go zone for possessions, after timeouts, baseline out of bounds, whatever it is. But the hallmark of zones that I've seen come back into the NBA, remember there was no zone defense when we were growing up. It wasn't until like 2001 that you were even allowed to zone. So it's the same thing with the three point shot. They put the three point shot in in 1980. And it took about a decade. But, before teams were like, maybe we should shoot three-pointers, right? Because you have to

schematically change your approach to the game when you do that. The zone came in, and outside of like Don Nelson and Dallas, most coaches didn't go, oh, fantastic. I've got all these beautiful zones on my shelf from college and high school that I've been waiting to spring on the league, but I've been hamstrung by the illegal defense rules. So it took a long time for zone to come in and be useful and be a thing. And that's why I think, now we're only getting to a place. Nick Nurse in Toronto. And I'm not honestly

off the top of my head. I've seen a lot of raptors, but I'm not sure how much they're kind of doing this this year. But in the past in Toronto, they've done a little bit more with how they play zone than just, hey, go two, three, and guard an area. And obviously in the bubble we saw Miami, you know, they were putting length

at the top. Kind of reminds me a Syracuse's zone in college. They're bringing length to the top and maybe flooding three guys up to the side. line. And that was a little tricky at times for opponents like the Celtics and the Bucks. But I just think the entire approach philosophically, tactically, schematically of the Warriors is pushing the boundaries forward in the NBA. And he's probably stealing from places like college and internet, you know, these international coaches, they're always the ones

coming up with the mad scientist lab stuff. My understanding is Mike Brown, who's been an assistant coach with Golden State since 2016, has been. integral to installing the system that they're using. But do you need a Draymond Green to play the way in which you're describing? I don't know if you need one ultimately. I think obviously he takes it to the next level and he's just phenomenal to have out there. I think the thing that Golden State has that other people don't necessarily have, like when my wife saw the video, she's like, you can't publish this. It's going to ruin their defense. And I'm like, you have to realize they've been practicing this for years.

Right. Even the Damien Lees of the world on that team. Like, Kerr's been putting this in place since 2019 or before. Excuse me, the 2019, 2020, the season after they lost all their guys and they were injured. And he still wanted to play a certain way on both ends. And so it takes years to build up the kind of communication and trust that you see in the video. When you get communication and trust and buy-in, it's easier for that effort and those second efforts and everything to fall into place. and now, oh, I can put Juan Tuscano Anderson out there, and he's not in the same universe as Draymond Green,

but he's doing good stuff, he's communicating, he's active, he's understanding the situation. And I do think if you took Draymond out of that equation, they still have enough good defenders, man, like Wiggins, GP2, Larry Payton's so good, Ben. Can we just stop and do the rest of the pot on Gary Payton? I just want to do an hour on Gary Payton the second. I actually couldn't believe on the cutting room floor

how many plays I had that were him ripping people dribbling and I'm like oh my God those were just in my backlog they're just over and over and over what was the director's cut like 35 minutes double the time just a lot of Gary Payton Jr. Gary Payton the second in there yeah I've tried I've tried to avoid going too crazy I did only five extra minutes for my Patreon subscribers but it's they have defensive personnel

and they have years of practicing this way. And I think that's the foundation in order to play more complex. It kind of reminds me of football, Kevin, right? Like hybrid coverages, disguising your systems, understanding difference. Like you're going to exchange and trick the quarterback. It's that kind of thing moving forward that I kind of think is there to be had in basketball going into the future. That's a great thought.

I mean, I remember in the early 2000s, it was four three defense or three four defense. Zone Blitz. So blitz. Right. And like the Patriots, they go from a four-three. Then they have nose tackle. Ted Washington, Vince Will Fork, playing a different style on defense. And then nickel. Nickel defense. And now your base package is typically nickel or you're playing so many different concepts that are blended together in the NFL, as you said. NBA, maybe this is the next thing. You mentioned the Raptors earlier in how they played Box and won, all these different zone coverages against Steph Curry and the finals. Now they have Scotty Barnes. This type of play. who's Dremond-esque, big, long, you know, hustles, communicates. He's got some work to do on both ends on the floor, but there's a lot of big, skilled, mobile guys that have entered the league in recent years and will enter the NBA in the coming years,

Chet Holmgren, Pablo Bancaro, Victor Wenban Yamah in the next two drafts, where maybe, you know, for years people were saying, how do you find your, a Dremon Green, just find a guy like Dremont. There are guys coming up that grew up watching the Dremont of the world. And they've played on the perimeter. Do you think maybe we could see more and more teams begin incorporating this hybrid defense into their own systems based off the players and the personnel that we have in the league today? Yeah. I mean, it's possibly trending in that direction. And think about the Clippers last year, basically playing with no bigs, right? And so you can go

five out on offense. And then let's go back to the football concept. It doesn't even have to be of someone as big as Holmgren or Wembejana, right? It's just the idea of multiple. That's a term in football, multiple. So you can put your hand down at the line of scrimmage. You could be a linebacker. The Patriots, since you mentioned them, they used to play Patrick Chung at safety,

but then he could come up and essentially be a linebacker against the run, right? And I think that's what's happening in basketball, where we've become more positionless on the court. And that's, I don't think the warriors are any, team could have done this 20 years ago when you've got like two oak tree big men out there. And then definitely at all times one little point guard who's going to get abused in the post. Instead, what we see today is you can switch three, four, sometimes all five guys.

And functionally, the term that the coaches use is likes, right? We switch likes. So a six five guy and a six seven guy, they're both wings. They can guard the same responsibilities. Well, what you're seeing is everyone's kind of multiple or everyone's kind of likes. Like when I was looking at the Warriors, having Steph Curry roam over into the paint in the spot that also Kavana Looney or Draymond Green runs over, that says everything about how interchangeable the parts can be.

Let's discuss some teams in the Eastern Conference, starting with the team that was on the other side of Tuesday's record-breaking game for Steph Curry, the New York Knicks. Julius Randall had 31 points. against the Golden State Warriors. It came on 21 shots, but he was 5 of 8 from 3, 7 rebounds, 3 assists. It is one of his better games that he's had the entire season, because this year has been a bit of a struggle for Randall. On the year, he's shooting only 33% from 3, down from 41% last year.

That's much closer to his career averages, which raises the question of whether last year was an outlier season for him. His defense has been far more inconsistent like it was in the past. Like two years ago, Nick's fans dreaded watching. him on the court. So there's been a little bit more of that after he signed his big contract. And I'm worried about Randall, despite some of the good performances that we've seen like his 31 points last night. I'm worried, Ben. Are you worried? Why are we being so negative all of a sudden, Kevin? We were on a roll. We were on a positivity vortex. This is a negative. It's just real. It's being

real, Ben. It's being real. I'm worried. He makes it all NBA team. Well, he shouldn't And then that's a huge contract extension. And now he's looking back like the guy that Nick's fans didn't want to see on the floor two years ago. I mean, are you worried? I don't know how. I'm the same amount of word I was last year because I just think he was overextended in a hierarchy by like two notches. Right.

Like you can't, you can't build a team. And I actually kind of liked Randall in L.A. And I mean, he's got, he had scoring spunk. He had this kind of game that was difficult to guard coming off the bench and obviously defensive concerns when he was in New Orleans and with the Lakers. But that kind of player, even with the improvements he made last year, you're just not going to run a high level championship offense through him. And you're probably not going to have him be your second best kind of even even your second

best offensive player on a really high level team. So he was in a position where the. Knicks have a lot of defensive spunk. They had a defensive roster. They had a defensive coach. They overperformed. And to his credit, I think he did a great job with what he was asked to do, expanding the playmaking a little bit, expanding his range or kind of have, you know,

whether it was an outlying season or not, we don't know. But he added things that made him worthy of making the All-Star team. Now, as I say all that, I had a podcast last year where I was like, Julius Randall is not an all-star level player to me because of the things you're seeing now, because what happens when you recast them in a different role or how long can you ask a player like that to sustain that role? I think we saw that in the playoffs last season. And I think the unfortunate part is then we end up looking at these guys through negative colored glasses, instead of all the positivity that they brought. So he got slammed for his postseason series,

but that's the kind of thing that's going to happen when you go from the regular season to the playoffs and defenses cue in on you and you just don't have that roster or that skill set to, you know, you're not Tracy McGrady carrying the magic kind of thing. Ben, I think everything you said is fair. With Julius Randall, look, very good player. We saw what he did with 31 points against Golden State. The guy can get buckets for you. He can rebound for you. There's a lot that Julius Randall can do. But if you are a Knicks fan and you have been underwhelmed by his play, I think it's okay to have some concern because this has been a thing for him in the past. But ultimately, you hope during the postseason, he turns up his energy,

he turns up the focus levels, and he's able to have the best stretch of his career if the Knicks are in that position. Ben, I wanted to ask you about Cade Cunningham. You're more of an NBA guy. You don't watch much of draft prospects, right, before they enter the league? Yeah, I used to love college, and now I just don't have time for it. That's because you're making amazing 17-minute videos about the Golden State Warriors defense. But I have a question for you. So, Cade Cunningham, what are your early impressions of him earlier this week? Dave Bing, NBA legend said Cade Cunningham's a future All-Star, but he's not the guy for Detroit. So forgetting everything that was talked about pre-draft with him, what are your impressions of him so far a couple months in now?

I was a little concerned at first, but I think to be fair, and I had this exact same thing happened one year in high school. Like when you come off a bad ankle injury like that, it takes a little time to get back into your rhythm, to get back to where you want to be. And then you add the fact that like this was his debut in the NBA. And he's debuting on a team that's, you know, not that good, shall we say, right? So at first I was concerned. Now I'm in a place where I want to see more data. I want to, I'm starting to see the flashes that draft guys talked about, that they love that, you know, I see the clips before the draft. draft and try to tune into an Oklahoma State game and like see what's going on and I see the vision.

But I'm not ready to sell. So Dave Bing sold stock on him. I don't think I'm ready to make that pronouncement. Yeah, he said he's a future All-Star, but he's not the guy, not the guy. And that's not something you want to hear after a couple of months after he drafted number one. Not the guy. Do you think he can be the guy? Yeah, it's not just the number one part for me.

It's his style of play, right? because when I hear something like that, I hear Sean Marion, I hear Eddie Jones, I hear, I hear guys that are like pieces that fit, even to Clay Thompson, right? Like you don't build everything around him. You plug him in and he has responsibilities defensively and he compliments your star player and he runs around and finishes plays with three point shots or cuts to the rim. Like that's what I hear when I hear that kind of talk. Oh, this wing player is an all-star, but he's not the guy.

that would be concerning in the sense that Cade seems to have a game that is set up to be the guy, right? He's a big playmaker. He's this, we've, this is the mold we've seen. He's this LeBron legacy, Magic Johnson legacy, like, give me the ball. I can play pick and roll. I can finish at three levels. I'm big, I'm broad. I don't think I'm ready to sell that based on what I've seen in the limited, because as I said,

like, first couple weeks physically have looked different than I, think the last week or two. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's averaging, I think, 23 points, his last six or seven games, a great efficiency from all levels, as you said. I mean, like, his passing, it's funny in Oklahoma State. I don't, I don't think his skill as a passer was reflected in the assist numbers. And I also don't think it is in Detroit either. His ability to manipulate defenders, create opening passing lanes. He just doesn't have the personnel around him right now. Detroit stinks. They're not a great team right now. And I mean, so I, I think for Cade.

The potential would be the guy is still there. And Dave Bing was probably watching a little bit too much from him coming off from his early season injury. I mean, it's tough to come back mid here, especially as a rookie, man. He missed most of the training camp and all a preseason. Well, it looked like it affected his shot. And it's always hard to gauge where someone is as a shooter. One, because they have a small sample in college. But two, they're in the like fat part of the aging curve, right?

18, 19, 22 year old players make the big. improvements. And so when he comes in and you want to be that level of player and your shot is just wonky, not the mechanics, but the results. You're just like, wait, can this guy make a jumper? Can he make an open three? Can he make a pull up or a step back? They're going under the screen and he's just flatlining all these jumpers. I think that was the bigger question. But as I said, I've really kind of gone into a mode of like, I'm going to need a lot more data on him because if his shot's really good, the size is there, the playmaking is there. Maybe Bing was picking up on an intangible.

Maybe he's getting one of those things where he looks to, he's getting the sleepy eye treatment. You know, he looks too blazee. I don't know, because it still seems like a possibility that he gets to a really good place. What's wrong with the Celtics, Ben? Why are we doing this, Kevin? What's wrong with him? Why are we? What's wrong with the Celtics?

I know the Selvix got the win Monday against Milwaukee. Tatum had 42. He was absolutely incredible that game for Boston. But I don't think one game changes the fact that this team is in need of a shakeup. And for Boston, I'm still a believer in the Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown core. I am. Those guys are young. They're 25 and 23 years old.

They've gotten better every single season. Jalen Brown and Jason Tandum have only played 13 games together this year. And the Celtics have been a plus five when they've been on the first. floor together. It still can work with them. To me, it's the surrounding pieces. Yeah. But what's wrong with the Celtics, Ben? There's something, there's something wrong and they need to feel urgency around those guys. There's only so much time until those deals are up. What's wrong?

I think this is good therapy for you. That's, I'm feeling good about this from that perspective. Like, we can, we can get in here and help you feel better about this. All they have to do, Kevin, is, is get rid of most of the players they have around Tatum and Brown and then bring in new players. Oh, yeah, that's very easy. Very easy. I'm sure Brad Stevens loves that advice when he gives you a call on the phone. Short discussion.

Hey, Ben, give me some advice. Help me out. I mean, so you're saying it's everything else. I think so. I think it's a broken roster. I think it's a roster that I looked at it in the preseason and I was like, man, this is going to be one of those scrappy, 500-e, you know, they're in a lot of close games. Because do you have a great playmaker? No. Do you have a lot of what I would call subpar decision makers? Yes.

You know, if someone like Rob Williams could take a leap, then maybe you can construct your offense differently. But Tatum and Brown, to me, as good as they are, and I like them as well. Two-way players, two-way big wings. You can do a lot with them. But I don't think they're the kind of guys that you can go out there and say, carve up the defense, set up your teammates, give me a high-level offense every night. You need a different system. You need to run more elbow action, more motion action. You need something. I don't like judging young coaches early because I think there's a coaching learning curve as well.

But, I mean, Ima Udoca is not exactly, he's not started his career by lighting the world on fire with offenses, X's and O's and, you know, brand new cutting edge schemes and things like that. And so I think you're just, I mean, what are their efficiencies? They're like middle of the league on offense and middle of the league on defense. I think that's what they are with this team. So with Tatum and Brown, you mentioned how neither of them are lead playmakers. I think Boston, when it came to building out this roster, going back to when Danny Aange was still running the team and now with Brad Stevens in his first season, I think their hope internally was that Tatum would break out as a passer.

He's made progress over the years. He's better than he was in high school. He's better than he was in Duke, better than he was early in his career. You've got to give credit where it's due. He's gotten better as a passer at reading the floor. However, it hasn't manifested in him in terms of becoming. an elite efficiency decision maker with pick and roll isolations. This season, going back to last season, 47 guys have isolated 300 times.

Brown ranked 7th worst in points scored per isolation. Tatum ranks 11th worst of those 47 guys. And it's all the top players, Kevin Durant to the world, that are most efficient because they can not only score with elite efficiency, which neither of those guys can, but they can also pass the ball too and create open shots for their teammates. Tatum and Brown, I mean, you got to have an elite isolation, elite pick and roll playmaker in order to win at the highest level in the NBA. And Tatum and Brown just haven't gotten over that hump as scorers or passers in the last

year or two, which to me is the most disappointing part. And yet you can't give up on them, though, because of their age. They're still so young. I don't even know how disappointing it is. it kind of reminds me of the Randall thing. Like it's a miscasting, I think, for Tatum to be someone who's at that level of responsibility with the offense. You know, he's not Luca Donchich, right?

You can't run that heliocentric, everything revolves around him system. I mean, Durant gets, when he does isolation, it's like art, right? He's like shooting 57% in the mid range. Tatum's scoring itself is inconsistent because he can't get as many easy shots. these kind of difficult shots that he winds into, if his shot is on in the game, he gets a 38 point game and it's a good game and the Celtics do well.

Other times the shot doesn't fall, and he has one of those games where he's six for, six for 22 or whatever it is, that also plays into your playmaking because defenses will be like, all right, you want to dance one-on-one, you can do that, but we're not going to collapse everything.

We're not going to shift everything over to you. So, I mean, you mentioned Durant. Like, Durant to me is a better passer, better playmaker, better decision, maker. I put him in my greatest peak series of all time. He's still someone who I criticize as like, it's a different level when you get to LeBron, when you get to Lucca, when you get to Trey Young, if you're going to play like that. And with the Celtics, I think when they lost Hayward and Kemba Walker and before that it was Kyrie Irving, when they lost those other playmakers and those

secondary playmakers, it shifted a lot of that playmaking responsibility onto them. And now the support system this year is like Schrooter and the Josh Richardson's of the war. Marcus Smart. I just don't think they're good enough decision makers or passers or scoring threats to be able to support those two guys in the way they need to be supported. So I mean, we said it was quick at the beginning, but we've danced around it. I just think it's a broken roster. The Celtics upcoming schedule, Warriors, Knicks, Sixers, Cavs, Bucks, Wolves, Clippers,

sons. That's until the new year. That's a lot of tough games coming up, Ben. Yeah, you're excited about it. I can tell. There are 11 games for NBA fans to watch on Wednesday night. I want to preview one of them with you. Ben, which match-up is the game of the night on Wednesday?

I kind of like Clippers Jazz. Yeah, right? A rematch. The Clippers are a good watch to me. We already mentioned them already in this pod. Brandon Boston. Brandon Boston. I'm a believer. I get them well. 50-50-first pick for the Clippers. Everybody's talking about Taylor and Horton Tucker for the Lakers. Horton Tucker is old

news, Ben. Old news. It's all about Brandon B.J. Boston with the Clippers now. That dude can score. He's come back home. I see why you say that. I mean, it's your Celtics fandom, Kevin. He had the game of his career against the Celtics, but there, I mean, there was, right, there is something there. He did it in the G league. He did it in the G league. He did it in high school, just not in college. There's something there. I don't know if I'm a believer yet. I don't know if I've purchased any stock, but I'm

watching the ticker. I'm keeping my eye on the price on the ticker as that Chiron scrolls across the bottom of the screen. He he's got the body. He's got the length. He's got the athleticism. Other things seem to look. He has the courage. Sometimes you don't have all that other

stuff, but you have the courage. You don't want those guys. That's a good point. He does have the courage. I have seen some nice little things defensively in terms of his awareness that I'm always looking for with young players. So if the three point shot comes around, if other things start clicking and falling into place, yeah, there could be something there. And the jazz, like, how much time do we, can I get a glass of cognac and kick my feet up and talk about the jazz for the next 20 minutes? I mean, they are a machine. Go off on YouTube.

That's another video, probably just the, I mean, God, they're, why isn't anyone talking about their office? offense. What's going on? Their offense is unreal. I am absolutely fascinated by how good their offense is they have a 118 offensive rating, Kevin. You had a stat in your Warriors video about how they're like the greatest differential from the league average with defensive rating through a third of the season. Utah must be pretty close there too, right? On the offensive end? There's actually a stat at the end of the, there's a graphic at the end of the Warriors video that talks about offensive efficiency after a live ball stop and on all other possessions. So, you get your after timeouts, you get free throws and baskets that are made and things like that.

Okay, there's a dot way, there's an outlying dot that is so far out, it looks like an error. That's the Utah Jazz. Their half court set offense is just, and I'm not, this is not hyperbole. They are eviscerating the NBA right now. I don't know why no one's talking about them. Why are they? What are they doing? The short version is they got a ton of shooters on the court at all times.

really high-level shooters. They keep good passers on the floor. Mitchell and Connolly give you two playbakers. I'm a huge fan of having multiple ball. We talked about Kemba and Hayward and how they supported Brown and Tatum. You have those multiple guys on the floor and your resets when you swing the ball

at the end of the first action. Now you go, Gober comes up with Conley pick and roll for five out. And it's like, good luck to, that's the second action. Good luck defending the second action. So Mitchell's playmaking has been great. He's a nuclear bomb when his shot is on.

He's carving up the defense, kicking it out, playmaking. And Bogdanovich, Conley, Royce O'Neill, they just, Jordan Clarkson, Ingalls, they're just loaded with guys that score and make open shots. And I think the last thing at the high level is just Quinn Snyder has been really nice with X's and O's for a number of years. And he's just, I don't know. I have to think more about how you defend them. I have to think more about what's going to happen in the playoffs because we didn't see healthy Utah in the playoffs last year, Kevin.

We saw it until Donovan Mitchell, until Mike Connolly got injured and then it all fell apart. And this is the forgotten kind of story of the weird 2021 playoffs. Like, I think that jazz were going to win it if they stayed healthy. So what you're saying, Ben, there are people listening to this podcast right now that's saying, the Clippers are just going to go small again in the playoffs and switch against Gobert and ruin everything that they do.

Fair. It did cause some problems. When I reported my feature story in Rudy Gobert that published back in October, I started doing that back like in February. It was supposed to go during the playoffs. And we had a postponent to preseason story of how this industry works. Yeah. Yeah. And so we postponed to the preseason.

My conversations with people around that team over six, seven months, my impression is they didn't believe internally that the way the media and fans are talking about their serious loss of the Clippers was rooted in reality. They felt it was more to do, as you're saying, health, some of their issues on defense that they were having, miscommunication, guys just getting blown by, because they don't have great perimeter stoppers. Terrence, man, scoring 91 points in one. What did he shoot 70% from three?

What was it? 39? What was that game? The single game. Yeah. Oh, it was absurd. I mean, there's no doubt that that Clippers. style versus the Gobert defense is like, you know, thunder lightning, right?

There's no doubt that it can present matchup problems. But we didn't get to see Utah's offense at full strength. And frankly, we didn't get to see their defense at full strength. Because when you go to the reserves, when you chip into your depth, the problem wasn't Gobert per se. His value is minimized to some degree in that system, absolutely. But the problem was no one could stay in front of the ball. So it was just breakdown after breakdown after breakdown.

And then for some reason, there's fans that want Gobert to guard all five guys at the same time anywhere on the floor. So I kind of understand why they have that perspective that they run it back and they're healthy. A guy like Rudy Gay, I love the pickup. Yeah, dude, I was about to ask about him. What are they doing with Rudy Gay? Well, I don't know how involved he is just in terms of how dominant they've been. I think right now he's just getting up to speed and he's another.

their piece. Just 12 games. He's playing. Only 228 minutes so far. But his three-point shooting has come a long way in his career. So you have another guy that's a big athletic body who can defend, who could potentially be in one of these crazy playoff, small ball. I'm going to play the five kind of lineups. Keep their shooting and spacing on offense that's so critical to everything they do. I mean, they're kind of a sleeping giant to me.

Like they have no track record of deep success, obviously. But they've been so good now on offense. this is not a fluke what happened in the past last year was not a fluke they're better this year offensively and yeah I mean like I said there's a video coming because their offense is historically good right now

one other thought on Utah you know Mitchell had a slow start to the season when they were still wrecking teams now he's playing like a top 10 top 15 guy Mike Conley his chemistry remember a couple years ago couldn't throw lobs to go bear those guys are clicking at a very very high level those days are done

and Conley's like what four something percent from three as well. Ridiculous. It's fantastic. And I really like the way in which they're using Rudy Gay. They use them a lot at the four next to Gobert or White Side. But in 24 minutes so far, they've used him as a five. And using him at center, they've played so differently.

They're switching 40% of on-ball screens with Gay at center. 33% of handoffs they're switching. And that's compared to 13% when Gobert is on the floor for switching on ball screens 10% with handoffs. They don't switch that often when Gober is on the floor. They're switching a lot with Gay at the Five. And like there's some mixed results. They're only outscoring teams by two in those 24 minutes.

And sometimes they're getting abused inside on the boards. But I like that they're experimenting with it, Ben, because like you mentioned how they're a well-oiled machine. They're doing it back. But this is a different variable for them to have. And I'm not sure how much they're using it. it might be serious dependent in the postseason, but the fact that they're practicing it,

that to me is at least an indication that this is a team that wants to have this breaking ball as an option in the playoffs. Now we're over in baseball. I like that. The change-up pitch. This is what it is. How many other sports can we hit before we get out of here? I can get it.

That's all. That's all I know. Basketball, football, a little baseball. What about soccer? Someone was saying, Draymon is a defensive roamer, and that's a future position. Chris Ryan's brought that up to me before.

I'm with you. I think, I mean, it's only 24 minutes. So, you know, whatever the result is is almost meaningless. As an aside, I love when people are like, this lineup is plus 172 per 100 possessions, parentheses, 41 minutes. It's like, yeah, that means they like played three quarters and they outscored their opponent by like 30 points or whatever it happens. But I'm with you. I think it's the kind of optionality that the jazz needs. defensively to really help

give them a little bit more of a boost in the postseason and then you do it without sacrificing yourself offensively. So Gobert himself you mentioned the Conley Lobbs like great rim gravity, great roll gravity, a fantastic screener for the guards and then if you

bring someone like Rudy Gay in at five for small ball center lineups you can preserve five out actions and things like that. It's yeah they're really good. Ben I mentioned that at the top of the podcast are first time meeting in person, our John and Vinnie's dinner. What are we getting dinner again? When are we getting dinner again in L.S.?

When the pandemic is over? How about that? I don't know. I don't know when that is. What is that? I don't know. What is that? That could be some number of years. Oh, man.

Until that. We had a R.R. table. We had like a little table for two. We both, that day, we both fast. until dinner, right? I believe we both fast. That was a single meal. One meal a day. Our table was packed. We stacked plates. Like the chicken parm.

They were, they were, was on top of a cup above like the spicy fusili. I can't eat like this anymore. I can't have these giant meals. I used to be able to do omat anymore. I can't do it. I can't even. I'm too old. My, my, my body does not allow this kind of performance level eating. We, we went into, uh, we sat in the back, which was great. and I think we scared our server because we had ordered like 11 things. Most people ordered like one or two things. They get an appetizer. They get a brusquette.

They get a pizza. Yeah, that was fun. Did we only talk about Pink Floyd during that dinner? This is what I'm saying. This last hour is the first time we've ever talked about basketball. Every time we meet at like a conference or a convention, I feel like we talk about other things,

music or food or things like that. and yeah, usually it's something other than other than the NBA. Do you play guitar? I don't play guitar. I play piano. You play piano? How long have you played? I grew up taking lessons

starting when I was like five and I probably took lessons through high school. But then I didn't have, I got to get a keyboard. I didn't have like a piano or a keyboard for years. And then when the pandemic hit, we moved out of L.A. and the place that we rented,

the place that we were staying in temporarily before we actually fully moved, had a keyboard, and I started playing again, and I was like, yeah, I got to play more music. What's a Pink Floyd song you can play on a piano?

I like messing around with the coming back to life intro and solo. Oh, yeah. Oh, baby. Yeah, you can put like some jazz riffs in there and those, I mean, David Gilmore just has so many, like,

can that you can either try to attempt to capture the essence of what he's doing or riff off of on yourself. And Richard Wright has so many just absolutely majestic piano parts, keyboard, synth parts, and all of Pink Floyd's discography. I mean, like, even simply, Great Gig of the Sky is a vocal performance. However, the piano that Richard Wright lays underneath just lays such a comfortable bed for her vocals to really just dance above. A comfortable bed. I like that. It's beautiful. Are we keeping this in the podcast? I don't know.

We might. We might not. We have three listeners at this point. Yeah, that percentage of listenership has just took a dive down. There are some people hanging on right now. They're like, let's go another hour. Let's go. Floyd taught.

Did, uh, did, have you, to you listening still, I love you. Did I send you the, um, Pompeii performance of echoes recently? You probably did at some point. but I that's that's one of my all time great when I'm ranking the videos on YouTube that I saw that made me want to play guitar that's right up there echoes at pompey shirtless David Gilmore with the long hair just shredding dude just shredding that's an experience you know I actually have a yokech video so I can tie this to NBA I have a yokech video cut to echoes by pink Floyd at pompe and I cut to like roger water's playing

base. It's so corny. I'm going to link to it when we tweet out the podcast. Okay. I'm looking forward to this. Although, I think you need the cinematography of what's happening. You're in Pompeii, and then you're like in space, and then you're on a journey. I thought it was like 2001 for a minute. I just, yeah, it's an experience that video. We should go to, well, I mean, they won't be there after the pandemic, but Pink Floyd, their mortal remains. There's a pink, Floyd exhibition in LA. I got to go to that. I think it closes early January.

But check it up, Ben. Kevin, thanks for having me on. Thank you so much for coming on, Ben. I hope you have a great rest of your day. I hope our basketball discussion did not disappoint. Thank you again to Ben Taylor from Pinky Basketball for joining the show. I really love the conversation with him. Thank you to our producers, Jesse Lopez and Dylan Burkey for helping make the void.

And a big thank you to you for listening to the show. You can watch The Void on the Ringers. page and you can listen to it here every single Wednesday. I'll be back on Friday with Chris Vernon with another episode of The Mismatch. We'll be back again next Tuesday. And then next Wednesday, we're going to have another special guest with The Void. Thank you again. I hope you have a fun day.