The Mismatch - Summer League Observations and the Mavs' Future With J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks | The Void

Episode Date: July 11, 2022

Hey, it's Kevin; thank you for listening to The Void. Today’s guests are The Ringer’s own J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks from Upside High. We are all about the NBA Summer League as we discuss the performances of Paolo Banchero, Chet Holmgren, Jabari Smith Jr., and more. Here are today’s time-stamps: (02:14) - On Paolo Banchero (09:16) - The Magic's roster and how it fits with Paolo (14:55) - Jabari Smith Jr.’s Summer League struggles (17:27) - How do you see Jalen Green and Jabari playing together? (22:28) - On Chet Holmgren (28:02) - Watching Josh Giddey play with Chet is so much fun (32:00) - The difficulty of scouting basketball players (38:35) - Can Keegan Murray become a true star? (44:28) - The importance of De’Aaron Fox (47:45) - On Bennedict Mathurin and his role with the Pacers (53:58) - State of the Mavs after losing Jalen Brunson Hosts: Kevin O’Connor Guests: J. Kyle Mann and Jonathan Tjarks Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, everybody? This is Logan Murdoch, and I'm here with my co-host for the Real Ones podcast on the Ringer NBA show, The Incomparable, the realist, the man who invented the pregame Red Bull snow cone. Raja Bell. Thank you, Logan. You're far too kind, sir. Did you know that the Ringer NBA show feed now has six podcasts a week? Six. Every Sunday, Big Was has a different guest from the NBA world on weekends with Was.

And you can find me and Rajah every Monday and Thursday on Real Ones where we cover all the most interesting. NBA storylines. On Tuesdays, Jay Kyle Mann and Jonathan Charks discuss up-income and talent in college basketball and the NBA. And on Wednesdays, you can hear Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney, and Big Was discuss any and everything going on in the world of hoops. Man, and on Friday, Chris Ryan and Syrac, so he asked the big questions on the answer. So head over to the Ringer NBA show's Spotify page and take a listen. There's so much to dive into. And while you're there, just go ahead and give us a follow too. Hey, it's Kevin O'Connor here with Jake

Kyle Mann, Jonathan Charks. We're in Las Vegas in NBA Summer League. We're recording this on Sunday evening. Kyle, Charks. How you guys doing so far here in Vegas? I mean, I feel great that we're at your hotel. This is fantastic. COC is living lavish out here, people.

Y'all don't even know. KOC always shoots this shot. I was saying I think this room is perfect for us because we're going to do some sort of dancing, the dance of the dialogue of the NBA. And what better place to do that than a ballroom? We're in a literal ballroom with chandeliers all around. Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

We are in a cosmopolitan conference room right now. This is capacity 494. We have six in here. It's us three, Jesse, Jomey, Richie. There you go. The takes. No, 500, we're filling it up with takes here. And we're going to start off talking about the top three of the draft.

Pallo Bencaro. Every opportunity he gets charts. Number one picking the draft going through. no magic. Baron Carros proven them right for making that decision so far,

it seems. I mean, I would say, like, the number one thing I've been talking to people out of here about.

I've probably had this question four or five times. It's like, if this is your first time seeing Palo in person, it like jumps off

it's like so noticeable. It doesn't really on TV come across quite how big this guy is. Then you see it live. It's like 610, 250 freaking tank coming at you.

And you just like, he's just big as all the center's out. And you just, on TV, it doesn't quite come across the same way. But you see it in personally, you're just like shocked how big he is. Yeah, he is. He's enormous. And I think there was like a jump ball or something. And it was a Kada that he was standing next to. And he was like nearly the same size. I think that gets lost. And some of that is like when someone moves the way that they do, your brain just kind of can't clock that sometimes, you know? And it's like you have to really see him up close. And I think summer really is great for that for seeing

Because not every, the average NBA fan I don't think gets to get the eye level experience of the NBA, you know? Like we were talking about being out at like the showcase. We got to see every single game at eye level. Maybe if you're like a Jimmy Goldstein, you get to consistently see. I'd be interested to hear his take on that. We need the Jimmy Goldstein draft guy. Yeah, we do. We do.

KOC could get him for sure. KOSC could do it. He would do it. But yeah, his size and it's just overwhelming outright. I mean, he looks like one of those guys is too good for Summer League right now. I mean, I think with Ben Carrow, the scoring ability, he had that baseline turnaround jumper, end of the game and overtime over Keegan Murray over the weekend, the playmaking ability from him. I love how he just, the ball keeps pinging around with Ben Carrow. It doesn't stop.

There's not some ball stopping with him. He had this play. I think it was against the Kings, double teamed after a switch in the pick and roll, where it's against a six foot one, six foot two guard. He gets pressured, immediately finds a cutting teammate. I just feel like with Bancaro, the size is overwhelming for the scoring that we're talking about. But the playmaking is well, this guy is showing that if you move around him, if you cut, he's going to find you. I hate to keep repeating the same point, but it's just so important. So that King's game, Higgen Murray has got great size for a forward.

He's like 6-8-225. Long-arms, strong frame. Really old guy. And Powell is just towering over this guy. It's unbelievable. For a top-five pick, you don't see that. And there was one play that I remember seeing it Clear's Day. just now, we're like, he has the ball against Kikin top of the key,

and it's just two dribbles right through him layup. And when you watch it out here, you're like, Paolo, if he goes to the basket, there's not much people can do about it. So it's like been really fun to watch that. Like you said, KOC, he combines that driving ability with passing ability. And if you can drive and pass at a high level, that's, I mean, that's big time. Especially if you're 6'10. I think that that is the thing that people miss, maybe underestimate frequently is

there's just not many of those guys on the planet, you know. And when I was when I was scatim, Javari Smith or just, you know, researching him, and just trying to figure out comps. And you kind of try to figure out like what is special, what differentiates guys? What are the levels of special in the league? And I heard some griping about like the foot speed with Palo. I'd be interested to hear you all weigh in on that. That's not a concern for me, number one, because how many 16 guys are like consistently taking people off the dribble and facilitating like that?

I mean, it's a short list. Foot speed, you mean defensively? No, offensively. I don't think that his first step's going to matter all that much. No, I agree, because he can overpower you. Well, it's kind of funny. Like, yeah, if Powell had an elite first step, you'd do LeBron. I mean, okay.

Exactly. We doesn't need an elite first step. And he's taller than LeBron, by the way. Yeah, 610, 250. And he, you know, his spin move is so fluid as well. You don't need the quickest feet to necessarily make your moves work. And I'm sure, you know, at some point during the NBA season, that spin move is going to get scouted.

Yes, we were talking about that. And he's going to have to find counters to make that work. But, you know, with him, Charks, doesn't he seem like the type of guy where he's going to be able to figure that over the course of time with his level of skill at this age? I mean, for sure. I think it's like just watching him at Summer League,

it's like pretty clear everything else to Orlando is just going to have to move around him. Like the level of talent we're talking about here is like everything else falls in the place. You have that number one option. And I think what I really set out to me watching him was like, go to the, the basket.

Or the times where he struggled against Sacramento, he would settle for like 15 flitters on Kegan Murray. And he can get that shot for sure. But with your advantage is like going at the basket. If I was the magic, I'd tell him, go to the rim every time and people can't stop. We'll spread the floor for you. Everything else gets figured out from there. And he's pretty like flexible.

Like he can like change direction around the rim. Like he's not stiff. Like that's a big thing I think that differentiates him from other guys too. Yeah, you were talking about like the counters thing. he does and we talked about this back on our show. He's kind of been the same guy for a while, and at the college level, people are so physically kind of unprepared to deal with him.

I think some of the things that didn't necessarily pop on that Duke roster are popping more now and are going to continue to pop as they optimize a roster around him that's more skilled and as for spacing and playmaking and stuff. Kyle, what's been your assessment of Paulo's defense so far for Orlando? It's kind of the same thing that it's been. I mean, he can have lapses where he kind of falls asleep. I thought that the assignment of Jabari was pretty interesting.

I'll be honest, this is the thing that I like the most about, like the underrated thing I like the most about Palo is that he definitely has a little bit of, I'm going to show you something tonight. Like he has that D.E. And I like guys that are like, that don't shy away from that moment. Dame challenged Shaden Sharp to have. Did you like his 360 Duncan transition wide open?

he didn't have to go up for it. Yeah, a little... Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, to quote my man, Bill Raftery, a little lingerie on the deck is nice, every once in a while. I think that, I enjoyed that. I love that. Yes, he has a little bit of that competitive edge in him,

and you like to see that. You like to see guys that, like, you remember that Gonzaga game back in December? Palo came out of the gate, and he was, he just was like, I'm going to crush you. Like, you could just feel it in the air. And he was, like, hitting step back threes, and it was like, I don't know.

If he has that, if he, if he, if he has like a consistent dribble pull-up jumper to his game, I mean, he, what's the ceiling? I mean, it's like, it's like, see, I'm curious what you think about that because I feel like, just go to the basket right now. No, well, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? I, I think I'm probably in the exception. So Jason Kidd got crushed when he was coaching Janus and Jabari Parker. And he was like, I don't even want y'all shooting threes. I want you all going to the rim every time.

And not that Japalo is Yonis, but he's kind of like Jabari. But I really think that is the attitude to have right now. Like, the jumper will come in time. Like, don't worry about that. Like, you got to touch. Right now, you were young and fast, and you're built like a tank. And I think, KOC, I'm curious what you think about this.

Because of the way Paolo plays, wouldn't your boy Mo Bamba make a lot of sense, right? KOC's boys coming back, baby. We're doing it. We ain't dead. Thank you so much for bringing up Bamba as a perfect fit. next to Paulo Vancaro.

It could work. I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of guys in that matter. We pour some cold water on your lap. I mean, I mean, Wendell Carter is still going to be getting a lot of minutes there. For sure. Baba still needs to bring it 100% every single night.

But that Orlando roster is starting to take some shape, though. Like, they have playmakers, maybe with Jalen Suggs. He has a great sophomore season after struggling through injuries and on the court as a rookie with the Orlando Magic. So they have a lot of good young players here. Like with Paulo Bencaro, do you like the situation for him in Orlando, Kyle,

with the surrounding pieces that they have there, or is this kind of like going to be a rough fit at some point during the year? The pieces, they're going to have to make a move, I think, at some point, because they, he's going to need, don't you think he's going to need a little bit more of a spread, like an offense that has more spacing in it? Caleb Houston's actually shown some stuff. More of him at the five, maybe?

Like, Vancaro at the five, Wagner at the four. I'm 11. Point, Palo, man. Okay, I don't know about Bencaro at the five right now. He has enough on his plate playing offense. He has expecting to be a defensive, right? It's just probably unrealistic. So maybe that's why Bomba, to your point, might be the better fit than Carter.

A spacing five who can anchor on the other end. I mean, Bamba's kind of headed that direction. I mean, and Carter's shown that at times. But if he's going to anchor on one end, it'll be the point card on the other, it's like, I mean, that's LeBron. That's like not something that happens. I got to talk about, we're talking about the magic. I got my guy, Franz Wagner.

Oh, yeah. This is the guy we're missing. I think that's the exciting part. You've got Palo as your one. I think Franz can be your number two. I love Franz Wagner. I think they fit really well together because Franz can defend both forward positions.

He can spread the floor, move the ball, not a dominant score. I think that's your one and your two. I think the other pieces are we're still figuring out. So in a way, what you're saying here is you like Point Palo. Wagner can handle the ball and pass a little bit too. If you're Orlando, you're looking at it maybe more of an inverted offense that they could build out where you're front court,

those are the guys initiating faults. Obviously, you're going to get a lot from him. Suggs. He can play with and without the ball. Do you kind of look at it as maybe that type of offense where you're getting a little bit of creation from everybody on the team? And I think that's kind of what Kyle was talking about. Like, when you have these ball handling forwards, you want your guards to be able to shoot 30s.

I think that's probably the piece they need of some more spacing for those guys. It's the Milwaukee model, honestly, in a way. Like, it's the thing, like Milwaukee has to, like, their primary playmakers are, I mean, Drew gets in there and does this thing too, but I mean, Janice, it's Janice, putting pressure on the rim at his size. And then Chris Middleton is like 6-7, 68, right? And then there are guys that are like cutting off the ball and spotting up aren't nearly as tall. So I think that, I don't know, it's an interesting thing to have smaller guards.

I mean, Suggs is 6-3, right? And then you got Cole, I don't know, we'll see what happens with Cole. Well, I think also it's like bringing it around. It's like Milwaukee model. That's where like Bamba being a Brooke Lopez. I think number one piece Palo Nita is his own Brooke Lopez. Obviously, COC thinks bombas that times 10, but that's the piece they got to figure out.

You look in your eyes. I mean, it's just so good to hear these words coming from somebody else and not in my own head. It just feels great. We could put some creepy music over that and just zoom in on Kevin's face. He had like an unhinged. Well, I think he gets that look more these days anyway. It's kind of part of it.

You slept. Well, chaos seems been having quite a Vegas time for sure. That's what I've heard. I did not get a great night of sleep last night. Yeah.

I slept in a little bit more and made up for the initial poor night of sleep. The pillows. I need good pillows. You hear this America, the sky out here? You're saying at the Cosmo

which is why I'm going to tell you about my pillow. You're living fine, man. It'll be okay. Yes, we definitely had a good time. My voice sounds like

gravel on like a tambourine. right now, I think. I've lost my voice in Vegas, I think, three years in a row. Yeah, well, but yeah, Bamba, Bamba is swinging back to Bamba. I would like to see it. I mean, I just think they need to make a move. Like the Gary Harris thing, do you think Gary Harris is long for Orlando or is a contender going to come around and maybe pick him up or because that salary seems like it could work? It just seems like they need to maybe consolidate some pieces and make some choices because they've got a lot of, it seems like a lot of asset acquisition. See, but I would say also, though, to be fair, you've got Palo's in year one.

Like, let's play this out. There's not really a rush. We can build this slowly. I feel like when you're rebuilding, until you have a number one, you're not really rebuilding. Your rebuild starts with your number one player. So these last couple years, it doesn't really matter anymore. Now you're building around Palo. If it's got to be slow, it's got to be slow.

It's fine. There's no rush. It's okay if it's slow. No need to rush it. They have a young team. And, I mean, I'm with you with Franz Wagner and some of the nice players the good young players they have in that team. Bomba included, still a young guy under 25. You know, and hopefully with Fultz, he continues making progress every year too.

I mean, the playmaking is already there, defense is there with Fultz. The shot, the free throws have gotten better. I mean, if he can start shooting better from the field, that's a game changer for them. And I think for the magic, it's a good thing that they didn't take Jabari Smith this week. Jabari Smith very well may go on to have an amazing career. But for Kevin Clark, Steve Serrity, some of our resident Magic fans at the Ringer, it has not been great with Jabari Smith so far, Kyle. The lack of creation, we know he can defend.

The shot hasn't fallen for him this week. What have been your early impressions of Jabari Smith Jr. on Houston? I don't think I've been like, I don't know, audio pro here. Yeah. I don't think that's, that kind of reminds me when they said like Kermit, the frog would be on talk shows and people would talk to him or they would Mike Kermit and not the dude holding anyway whatever I know what you're saying yeah yeah yeah yeah great story Cal uh no I think that um Jabari I haven't been super surprised honestly by a lot

among the top three it's been kind of what I kind of figured would happen because of because of the nature of summer league it's kind of like the nature of like camps or all-star games certain player types certain player types are going to be in a tougher position to to maybe be immediately productive. And based on my feelings about Jabari, you described them. I mean, I think his challenge is, he's settling a lot,

settling a lot for a lot of tough twos. And the difference between him and Paolo, like putting pressure on the defense and stuff like that, and the off the drool, you just, you saw, you saw that stuff. He got like one straight line drive on, on Palo. And like the next time down, Palo, like, blocked it off the backboard.

But, no, I haven't been super surprised. Are you guys alarmed at all by that? By what you've seen or is it or you feel like the idea? You're like not totally surprised. I think I'm kind of what you're saying. Like he's just a very different kind of player. It's not really, if you'd watched him at Auburn a lot, this is kind of what he was a lot of times in terms of he needed to get set up for shots.

He was part like at Auburn there, a top five team, right? He was part of a really well-run machine. On paper they were. Well, I guess either way. But like he wasn't like dominating the ball and like just commanding everything, getting his own shot. He was kind of playing his role in the system. And I mean, in Houston, in Summer League, it's just tough for him because he's not, he doesn't have a guy who doesn't create shots for him. He needs a point card, basically. I mean, how much is on Jalen Green here

to improve in that regard? Because you said earlier about the magic, you're not rebuilding until you have your number one. They might have their number one in Jalen Green. Jumari Smith could be their number two. Jailen Green said to Bill Simmons on his podcast earlier in the year that his focus this off season is playmaking, making that corner three pass out of a pick and roll. He wants to be better as a facilitator. With the Green Smith dynamic, how do you see that developing together charts? That's an interesting question. I mean, I think, and that goes into the Jalen Green conversation.

And ultimately, any like guard, you're going to need to be a great playmaker if you want to be an elite franchise player. So, I, that'd be, I mean, how Green develops as a pastor is going to be really important for Houston. And that's always been the case. I think the other guy, they used to have so many young players now. It's going to be very interesting to see how the rules shake out. The guy I think that immediately might be already be their best playmaker is your guy,

Schengoon, right? Like, he might be the guy who facilitates for this team for the time being. Yeah, I mean, you could see that happening because of these like scoring, leaning guys. It seems almost implied. I mean, it doesn't take pressure up, Jalen to improve in that way. I mean, Tai Tai is interesting in that way too because he's probably more of a score first point guard. think that his playmaking sensibilities are maybe a little more advanced than Jalen.

Are they the same age? Because Ty Ty's a little old. I need to check on that. I can't remember. They're close. They're close. Yeah. With Tai Tai, since you did mention him, are you surprised he fell as far as he did in the draft? Because a lot of people had him as a late Lotto guy. Yeah. And obviously

with Kentucky, you've got an up-close look. Yeah, I mean, it's a thing that keeps happening every year. It's almost become like a joke. I mean, I know Twitter was having a fun time kicking that around and joking about like, oh, it's basically the issue isn't so much like that he was playing with like two bigs. Playing with like a non-shooting PG, I think is tough because that guy is always in the gap to bother you too. I mean, Tyrese went through that. Tyler Hero went through that. It's just over and over again every single year. It really is.

Yeah. And it's like put the ball. I think that there's a hesitancy to put a score. Like if maybe your offense won't flow as well. If you put like a score. first shoot first guy at point guard i don't know they went to the final fourth brandon night but what do i know uh so i think that's uh we're really digressing we really are tie tie uh yeah you pulled a thread and i got there going no ty tai his value got pushed too too far i think i think he looked really good in the beginning of the year and he projected as a guy that i think could score and shoot off the dribble and he's creative and um yeah i think he fell too far honestly i think it was a little ridiculous Kyle, if you're a Rockets fan right now,

are you crushed that you have Jabari Smith instead of Paulo Vancaro? Are you nervous? I mean, it hurts. I mean, I think that they did well with their other picks. They really did. They really did do well with their other picks. He looks like a good guy. See, but I think here, I feel like that's an unfair question.

Because Paolo was taking two spots ahead of Jabari, right? Like, it isn't like the Rockets had the option. I think it's after weeks, if not months. of wow, we're going to have Jalen Green and Palo Bancares. But didn't we all learn that was all silliness, right? Like you can't think like that

because that was never actually happening here. There was a lot of chicanery going on. There definitely was. And like so Jeff Welman was interviewed by or maybe he just spoke about this in front of media, but the ESPN had an article about,

you know, what happened with the betting odds, you know, were people paying attention to that that worked in the league. And he said pretty much like we just wanted to keep everything under wraps. However, they were having trade talks. So there was at least a price that

Houston could have paid to move up from three to one. What was that price? I don't know. I don't have the sourcing on that. I should have been exorbitant. Exactly. So I think I would have done it. You think you would have if you were Houston. Yeah, because I think to get that first piece like Charks was talking about, that's the hardest thing to get. And sometimes, and we've talked about this ad nauseum, sometimes you think you have it and you pass on something that fits with the thing you have. That, that's just a hard place to be. Like, I would try to get the first guy. Like, I don't know.

Instead of building, I don't know, am I crazy? I agree or disagree with that. I mean, like, is there a chance? Like, we're even talking about this right now. Is there a chance, like, maybe one year from now or even five years from now with Jabari Smith Jr. This guy's average of 25 points, one of the best shooters in all the basketball,

an all the guy. And we look back at this. And maybe Bancaro's amazing too. But it's not like Jabari Smith Jr. doesn't have unbelievable potential still. Like, we can't overreact to just like, handful of summer league games for sure i mean he's a top three pick i think it's like you got to remember to get a top three pick in the NBA now it's pure luck right you can tank as much as you want

you're just like 14 percent chance that's more the thing to feel bad about if you're a rockets fan it's just like boohoo we didn't win the lottery that's basically it yeah and it's like and then you have to have the mindset okay if i have a top three pick like i've got to invest maximize and develop this top three pick and especially if you're three it's one thing it's like you're the Kings are the Sons and you could have drafted Luca. But it's silly to be a three and be like, well, I could have them but overall pick. Well, no, you could enough.

Like, it doesn't even matter, right? All right, let's move on to the number two pick in the draft. Chet Holmgren goes to OKC. Besides strengths, weaknesses, pros, cons of the summer league so far, Kyle, I've just been having the time of my life watching Chet Holmgren share the floor with Josh Gideon,

Jalen Williams. It's just been a lot of fun watching those young guys in Chetts. No, I've heard. Yeah, I wasn't back. I'm going into, Can you continue? My voice is like cried right now. I'm doing things that are incredible.

Kai, that sounded good. You get a voice. Thanks. No. We were going to ring a band. Where were we going into the other night? And we really should do a video where we put that song over KOC,

like watching like with that crazy look on his eyes. I'm just pitching ideas on the pod live here. From Obamba? Yeah, we just put that song playing over at KOC at the time of his life. Who else is on that? Anyway, we were going into the hotel the other night. And we were walking together, I think. You saw the Gonzaga big men.

That's right. And it was like, yeah, the Gonzaga crew was going out. And Charks was like, is that Chathamgren? And I was like, is that a serious question? He's like the most, he's one of the most unmistakable human beings ever. Yeah, physically he's incredible to see in person. He's been that first game, you were talking about the Orlando Magic fans being up and down and being, I think they should feel pretty rest assured that they got a good guy.

But it's been funny. watch them kind of go up and down after that first one. Chet has some things he needs to grow into still. I mean, like challenges like finishing around the rim. I think he's had some kind of inconsistencies there. Like he's had mismatches where he should have buried guys and finished. I think he's looked tired at times.

Like I think he's probably going to have to get in an incredible shape, I think, for the pounding that he's going to take. The Utah Summer League, I talked to a handful people from teams that were there. The players were all tired. Like everybody, everybody. Yeah. Yeah, like they did not, like, know what they were getting into.

It's like, it's first time playing there. So I think, and I excuse it there, but to your point, you could sense it in Las Vegas as well. Yeah, totally. I thought he was like, people kept challenging him. And I was like, do you guys not know who this dude is? Like, at Salt Lake City, I've seen a little bit of it here. It didn't it seem like that game? They kind of started challenging him less and less and less is the game more on.

They're like, we can't score. Houston got him, though. I forget who even got him on Houston, but it was some like, it was more of a role player. dunked fry in his face. It was a great game, Houston. I mean, I think for sure with Chet, it's kind of like Palo. It's just seeing this guy alive is just so fast-themed because his dimensions are so unusual.

Right? Like his lengths. Like, Palo has the size. Chet has the length where there was like a couple blocks he had against Houston. He was like, it was like a volleyball game. Like he was coming over the side of the pain and just swadding off the glass like three or four times. Like just an unusual game-changing

amount of length that he has. And it isn't all together yet. But then You see his ability to elevate over people, and it's like there's just, you can just see the potential. It's unbelievable. Chet had that weak side block end of one of the game's fourth quarter rotated from the left side of the paint to the right side and just uses the rule of verticality to make an impact around the rim. Have we seen already, I mean, he's had some difficulties on offense, finishing in traffic

against contact, and then on defense, you know, Kenneth Lofton did bury him, put him underneath the basket. Is Chet's best role early going to be that kind of weak side Robert Williams even Yonis type of role where he's not defending the true big on the floor?

I think for sure. I mean, that's something we've been talking about is like, does he start at the 4 for Oklahoma City? Because he gives you more than enough spacing, so it's fine. And I'm thinking of like the way Evan Moby played you

for the Cavs last year in terms of having the five man maybe a more traditional five. I'm not sure who that would be in OKC, but I like the idea of Chen. before for sure be jare maybe i mean i'm trying to think of like a bigger body type or or they could go smaller and put like play dors so they could get all their guys on the floor i mean what if they did a lineup where they went shay giddy jalen williams who we might talk about and then and then

they get doored on there as another guy i don't know i'm just thinking about like that kind of inverted thing that they kind of did with like inversion is like the i remember you and i talked about that last year on pods that like inversion is kind of the interesting thing in the NBA with lineups. Like, you have a guy that can shoot like Chet, you can do some kind of cross switching and get creative so that you can put him in, like, I think it's true. I'm trying to think of like the fives that like Kierlinco is a guy, keep bringing up kind of the way Kierlinco was really disruptive. You're thinking small fives, it seems, right? Like small, small, fives? I think put like a positionally solid dude next to him. I think that that would make more sense

so that you can switch those things. How about like, I was talking to some people yesterday and they mentioned like a Stephen Adams type, a prime Stephen Adams. Adams at the prime Al Horford. Like somebody who can move the ball at the five position has, you know, brute strength next to Chet. Is that the ideal for certain lineups, certain matchups, but then in other situations because you have Chet's length, to your point, maybe you can go with that 6-6,

67, quote-unquote, small ball, PJ Tucker types of the world. Is that sort of the way you're envisioning different types of lineups to build around Chet? I think we need a guy who can stop the run, basically. Like I think we need, that's really, I think we need to do, We need a solid dude out there next. You want someone with a lot of real, like a real squat, strong guy. Just like, yeah, kind of like takes up a lot of space in the paint. Grant Williams type.

I mean, I don't know. Like that type of body, I think, so that he just doesn't get abused. Though I do think, I'm curious as you all think about this, talking about Alliance with Chet. How about that Giddy Chet combination? How fun was that to watch, man. Isn't it so fun. Galee, that was beautiful. how Giddy had some quote earlier in the year

about how he loves watching Pat Mahomes, the quarterback for the Kansas City Chiefs, for people who don't watch the NFL. I think people know. I don't think you need to explain that one. Bill Gates, he was a billionaire software developer. I don't know, that's not fair. That's not fair. No, everybody knows who he is. And I mean, the reason why we were talking about that

is because, like, sometimes Giddy makes these passes where it's like a, it's like he's getting the snap from the center and he just whips the ball, sidearms. His whip passes are awesome. Oh my goodness. He's so good at it. He's another guy whose size. You really see it in a person.

Like, this guy's freaking huge. He's a game. Yeah. I mean, but those two guys, they're dynamic together. I love the fact they have giddy playing to get reps with Chet. Get these early live game reps. I'm having time of my life watching them. And for OKC, this young team that's all about development, they hire Mark Dagnalls,

a player developmental coach. It makes sense that you're putting your guys out there right now. And it looks to me like they already have, they're clicking a little bit. Yeah. You could see. him, I mean, it's been noticeable that like Chet and Giddy have been like having these conversations like, oh, like, you can see them working it out. They're a post game presser too after their third debut.

Yeah. They did the ESPN post game. I didn't see it. I mean, they were just, you know, arm around each other, hyping each other up. And then that's when Chet broke the block record. And he was like, I'm going to come back tomorrow and break it. There you go. He did.

We were laughing about it. The Thunder have nine guys with the NBA contracts here. Like, this is better than NBA team or some really team. Yeah. They get Wiggins. and Jalen Williams, the 12th pick in the draft, who looks absolutely like a perfect fit playing with these guys because Giddy will reward you if you move without the ball,

if you cut, if you know how to relocate behind the arc, and he can do a little bit off the dribble too. Yeah, I honestly think, just because Chet hasn't surprised me, Williams, I think, has honestly been more of a, like, antenna's up, like, wow, or something. And I, and I like, this was your guy.

I love him. I'm a sucker for that kind of interchangeability. Like if you can shoot and give me like facilitating. Like, because he, we talked about this on the draft show that like he grew up a point guard. And then he like he went into college at like 6-2 and then he grew to 6-6. And I just think as much point guard skills as you could get on the floor,

it's important. It was kind of like, I love that TCU parallel that you made the other day about how that, how TCU would convert like option quarterbacks and make them defenders. I just think that anytime you can get that like that processing, ability guys, guys who are already comfortable with like thinking the game and kind of a more complex level. As many of those guys, do you get on the floor the better. I was going to say that's the other thing that really stood out watching Chet in person. He's always making quick decisions

and they're usually right. Like he moves the ball. He's always in the right position on defense. Like he's like he moves it very quickly. He doesn't hold it too much. He knows the right reads. And that's something like he's going to be able to contribute right away because of that ability to kind of read the floor, understand the game. As you guys were just talking, I was just thinking about, you know, you said he grew up playing point guard, Janele Williams. He led to Santa Clara and assist the last two years. Chet, you really would have to go back to his high school footage

to see him doing some of the stuff that we're seeing him doing summer, like bringing the ball up the floor, the freedom to shoot some pull-up threes, crossing over. He didn't do that against Zaga. When you guys are assessing draft prospects, whether it's a riser slash sleeper like Janele Williams, or whether it's a top prospect like Chet Holmgren, how do you guys try to like project what they're going to do in the NBA,

given some of the limitations or maybe the extra rope they get in college in the case of Jalen Williams for figuring out what their ideal NBA role is going to be? Because these guys are doing dramatically different things than what they were asked to do in college. I would say that's the million-dollar question. I said that lots of people get paid, a lot of money to do that. That's why these NBA guys are driving Mercedes. They're the ones trying to figure this stuff out.

Because those are like, that is the fundamental question about most scouting. Because basketball is so contextual at younger ages, you're always trying to figure out what's the context. What can we take away? What can we not? I think Chet's a good example of that. Because one of the reasons I was always so high on them all season is I remembered the U19 tournament he was in last summer. Because Atkinsaga, he was just a role player. He was playing off Drew Timmy.

He averaged like maybe 10 points a game. and it was like he was very impressive because he was awesome in his role but you have to always remember a player can only be as good as the role he's been given. So Chetick and Zaga was an awesome role player and so you're asking yourself

well can he create his own offense then you go back to these All-Star games these U-19 tournaments and these are the big thing I think probably maybe most NBA fans don't realize is U-17 tournament U-19 tournament these are the guys really make their name

and Chet in the U-19 tournament I'll never forget where he fouls out when Benyama in like three minutes. He wins the game for them basically. It's like, okay, seven foot one, and you're doing that? Like, this is next level. Because Vic was like picking on him physically,

which was an incredible thing to see. Like, and I've recommended that over and over again. You're right. I think that, like, and another thing, too, is that that needs to be mentioned is that, like, Chet got picked up a bunch of fouls on Lofton from driving to the basket. So he has that in his bag.

He can, like, straight line drive on guys that are pretty big. But he kind of, on the context thing, I'll get to that second, but like, he did some of that, like,

open floor making decisions. At Gonzaga, it was more of, like, get the ball off the rim, drive a straight line, take a pull up three. We've seen him do that. I,

I've been more interested to see him attacking and taking the opportunity to, like, dribble and then get into the, get to, like, the free-d-line area and, like,

make decisions and things like that. But I think you do need to watch different contexts. And that, for the average NBA fan, I think that can get underestimated maybe and people that talk about the draft and that can make people misjudge. I've said this a million times, but like it can make people misjudge that maybe a weird eight months that a college player has. When you watch it and you might think like, oh, this guy sucks.

But if you go back and watch him in another context and see what he did somewhere else, you could be like, you know. That was kind of what you did about Shaden Shark. The video breakdown you did for the Ringer's YouTube page, you know, you talked about some of the negatives that people talked about a lot with his EYBL play, but then you looked at everything else that he's done. And you're like, well, here's him in a totally different context where he's being asked to do different things. And it reveals a different side of a player. Totally. I think it's like a good way to look at it. So a lot of the MD guys I've talked to here, they're going to Peach Jam next weekend. So they're watching the guys who are high school juniors and seniors. And that just gives you an idea,

like because of the constraints of how we do this, when we cover the draft, we're covering guys for one year. Like maybe you forgot like when Benyam, he might talk about the year before. But for the most part, we're covering them

for a year. But these NBA teams are evaluating them for three, four, five years. They're at the NBA, PA, watching stuff.

The book starts very young for these players. The NBA is moving more towards hiring grassroots expert people. I mean, they have in the past. I mean,

like Dave Tellop got hired by the Spurs way back in the day. That was, he's like, for people who don't know he's like a really well-known high school evaluator.

It was like the OG Dave Teller. Yeah, I mean, It's been going on, but I feel like it's like even more so. Now it's like a bigger picture. And I think you just have to take it in because it can be so misleading. And it can help you, it can help you have an idea of what guys are capable of more. And I mean, I guess next year, right, next year, the top prospects, there's a guy in France.

There's a guy at overtime elite, the two guys are overtime elite. Twins. A guy like Julie Ignite. Like, it's going to be a pretty different. This year is kind of nice because it was Gonzaga, Duke, Auburn, right? The next year is something like that. Next year could be no, you know, top elite college. prospects in the top four. It's very possible.

It's going to be the first time ever like that. We can make some videos because we're going to use the footage. I don't know, but like with the context of prospects, like even somebody like Quentin Grimes with the Knicks, he had eight assists the other night. Today he had this crazy behind the back past, Jericho Sims off a drive for a dunk. And Grimes, he starts his career as a top high school elite prospect goes to Kansas, struggles, transfers to Houston, becomes a 3-and-D type of player. That's what he is as a rookie in the NBA.

But then, like in Summer League, when he's given the freedom to handle the ball, it's like, oh, wait a minute. Is there still that ability that we saw flashes of in high school? Is there still a chance that can manifest for him? So for somebody like Quentin Grimes as well, it's another example of many where this is not a linear path for any of these players, including people who are top prospects in high school. Yeah. I mean, it's the, it's a living document. You can't just put, like I say, this is what a guy is when you evaluate them at 18 or 19 or 20 or things like that. Talking about Grimes, Houston, I know, is like, in the, like, nerdy draft world, like, I feel like every, like, nerdy draft person's favorite program is Houston because if you go there, you're going to defend and, like, guys come out of there being able to defend.

I think that was, I think you're on the nose. Like, for Grimes, that was, he, like, made that a big part of his identity. And I think the playmaking is, is a thing that he can continue. you to flesh out. And I know the Knicks are hoping they need it. They need him to, obviously. Let's talk about the fourth pick, because today we saw the Pacers and Kings play. We saw Keegan Murray versus Benedict Mathron, among other young

players of both of those teams. Keegan Murray had a great sequence into the game, late step backstack three pointer, then he drove to the basket, then he had a backdoor cut for an and one layup. I mean, Keegan Murray, I've been highly, highly impressed by him so far through Summer League with his ability to score. And I mean, virtually every single type of way

that you can imagine. And for the Sacramento Kings, I understand there's disappointment not getting Jaden Ivy, who in his own right has looked great with Detroit. But for the Kings, man, I'm just watching Keegan Murray this summer league after watching the way he developed in college. And it's like, this dude's going to be in the league for 10 years.

There's no doubt Keegan Murray is going to be a good player for so long to come. Tarks, have you seen anything from Keegan Murray that suggests that he could be more than just a very good player? But does he have the upside to perhaps even become a story? with his size and versatile scoring ability and his versatile defense for that matter. You never want to put a ceiling on a guy, right? Especially someone who's developed later, who's had a pretty non-traditional path to get there.

I think the main thing is what really stands out when you watch Higan now is just how polished he is. Like, he's a little older, but it's okay if you're older if you're older because you're more polished, you have more sophisticated game. And that's what really stands out. Like, there's not a ton of fat in his game. He makes the cuts. He moves off the ball. Like the backdoor cut.

We were laughing because they were playing the Pacers. And like that's the most spiritually Pacers play ever. Sounds like I'm winning game backdoor cuts. And that's the thing that stands out to me watching Kagan here is he's really going to be able to play off of Sabonis and Foxwell. I think that's like he's ability to cut off the ball spot up is like really impressive. And you know like when you're going to a team with high usage guys, you've got to find your own way. You're not necessarily going to be able to just dominate the ball. And that's what Keegan showed in college, too.

So as a freshman in Iowa, he played behind Luca Gar, as a national player of the year. I was like 30 points a game, basically. And Keegan's like, I got a cut to get baskets. I can't get the ball. And he just finds ways to score. I think what you want to do if you're playing with, whether the stars is you want to be able to take that further is like you want to have the ability to strain, like, the best offenses in the NBA, like, top to bottom, like the width

of their personnel. know, if you're not a star, you need to be able to, like, stress the attention span of the defense. Like, you need to be able to do other things. And I think that that's, like, something in the playoffs, you'll see it over and over again with, like, offenses start to break down. If you have guys that aren't, like, intelligent cutters or they can't make simple passes off the catch, like, Kegan is set up to a place where I don't think that his developmental challenges are going to be overly strained, like, in the short term, I think. Like, the on-ball stuff, talking about him being a star, how many, how many, like, Steph is, like, the ultimate off-ball.

superstar, but he can go on ball. I'm trying to think of like the highest ceiling for like a guy who was an off ball. Usually they're like catched shoe guys, which he's shown a ton of that. I mean, that's been impressive to me. I had the consistency there. But I think that he, he is like such an intelligent. Warren is the guy that always comes to mind. Actually, we've been talking about in our pot as T.J. Warren. Yeah. And like not only just terms of the game, but statistically they had very similar careers in college. Yeah, T.J. Warren has his mid-range flow. Always had the floater in NC State. Developed as a three-point shirt. during the NBA.

Yeah, I think T.J. Warren's actually a pretty good calm because T.J. can move without the ball, too. And he can get buckets for you here and there in the right matchups with the ball in his hands. I feel like, I think the king's got a right. I mean, I know Jane and Ivy maybe becomes the better player long term, but I'm one of the types of people who does think fit matters to an extent. I mean, like, you're not going to draft a player because he fits better over a better prospects. But I don't think

Jane and Ivy was so dramatically better than Keegan Murray that it was worth potentially complicating the way you're building out this entire roster with the Aaron Fox who was averaging 28 points with the best efficiency of his career after the Tyreys Howard Okay, actually I have a question for you like

we can talk about the Kings on this pod so it's cool. We can go into the week's here a little bit. We can talk about the Kings? Because I was talking with a summer day about this. They've been doing great by the way. I tease them a lot but it's been this has been a good summer league for them. So the one I wonder about is it sounds like they're going to go Subonis Barnes, Murray. Maybe.

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. You think no. Well, Monta McNeer, the general manager, said, we don't think that we're done yet. And I've heard, I heard this weeks ago. So this was before the drafts. I haven't heard anything recently, to be totally clear. They're one of the teams that could be an Aiton landing spot. Interesting. And that was before the drafts. That was like the loudest. Since then it's been quiet. Everything's been quiet with 18. Well, because I guess why I'm asking that is to me, you're talking about fit and how these pieces

fit together. If you're the Kings, what I'd be concerned about is, can we play enough defense? I'm like, I think really they need, when you have Subonis and Fox's their top two guys, you need your secondary guys to guard. That's the question for this team this season. And Kiga Murray helps there, for sure. Would you flip Harris and Barnes

and, you know, whatever else to get DeAndre Aidan? Is that an awkward fit with DeMontas? It really might be. I don't know. I don't know if Aiden would be super, down for that. Like, Sabonis kind of getting his way all the time. Like, Aiden's trying to get a bigger role. He's not trying to speed Miles Turner. And Subonis is the guy who's going to be doing a ton of

facilitator. He's going to be the man in the second. I don't love the fit person. Yeah, I don't know. That's a really good point. It would be like a repeat of kind of what Sabonis went through. I would move Barnes, though. I wouldn't hesitate to do that if that was on the table. If you're trying to win, though, Barnes helps you win. That's the thing is they're trying to win. Barnes is a

very winning player. So you kind of are on the side of, why not just keep Harrison Barnes. Barnes is a winning player? I mean, at this point, his career for sure. I mean, like, he's 680 guards. Like, he's, I got to see him really grow as his time in Dallas. He's an excellent MDA player now. He's a good player.

I mean, I understand if you'd want to rebuild and be on a longer timetable to trade Barnes, but you have to operate within the constraints of the franchise you're in. Obviously, the kings are trying to win right now. If you're trying to win right now, it doesn't want to make a straight Harrison Barnes, I don't think. It's pretty clear to me that Jane and I, he didn't fit the vision of how they're building this team out.

They acquire Kevin Herder, they acquire Malik Monk. They already have Davian Mitchell, who they drafted in the first round last year. Like, you're not, like, I'm not saying you should always draft for fit. You shouldn't. But the roster just makes sense on paper the way in which they've built this out. I mean, you can see this becoming a team that's competing for the playing tournament if De Aaron Fox is able to repeat what he did to close the year. And isn't that ultimately the key of all,

of this, though. The development of Deeran Fox is the real engine of your offense and what he can become. I got to say, I want someone to believe in me as much as the Kings believe in Deeran Fox. They have shown so much commitment to him in terms of guys they've passed on to take him, guys they've traded to feature

him. You have been given the ultimate that it's time to really show out. Does he have it, Kyle? You keep throwing these to me. I mean, I guess just me talking about Fox has just kind of become comedy, I've slipped into negativity so many times. It's okay. I mean,

a lot of people don't believe in the iron fox. A ton of them. Let's give him some bullet and board material right now. I have my question. I'll give him some bulletin board material. I've always had reservations about it. I don't know.

It just is, if he was more willing to like embrace a more fluid on and off ball role, I think he would be better for it. I've always thought that. I thought that the Fox Halliburton thing could have worked better. Like, like I don't think, I wouldn't have a good taste of my mouth.

Like you're talking about like fitting with him what's the ceiling for this for for this like the win now thing like makes makes me just a little feel weird about I don't know I feel weird about that and but I guess we're at the point where they made the decision we know what they're doing so there's not really a whole lot of point about like fretting and like kicking the derby like the fit doesn't matter it's like they're trying to win so for what they have they've added some extra ball handlers malik monk probably coming off the bench I'd assume Kevin Herder I think has more upside as a playmaker, what opportunity is going to have to do that? I don't know. But the fit

hypothetically makes sense. The question like Charks nailed it is the guard. Can they guard anybody? I'm not sure about it. I mean, just I want to bring it back to the thought I had about Keegan Murray. Like what is his real upside though, too? Because we're talking about fit there with a baseline of what Keegan Murray can become. Has he shown anything to you that suggests, oh, no, no, this guy's not just a high-end role player. He could be one of those guys that's one of your three best players, a star player on your team, a guy who's getting buckets for you at the end of the shot clock, just like he did in games that we've seen so far. That guy has scored 20 plus points in every game in the summer league and has done it in so many different ways. Why can't

Kegan Murray become a star? I guess is the thought on my mind. He fits, but also there is some upside there, perhaps, as a late-blooming prospect. I would say, I always believe, like, when you start talking about stars, you have to be well-rounded. Like the next step, if we're talking about Keegan Murray becoming a star. It's, okay, can you give me three, four, five assists? Like, I love to stateline in college. It's been, anytime you get like 24 points and one assist, like that's like, I love that. That's like very close to my heart. But if you want to be a well-rounded, high-level top 25 player in the NBA, the Colin Sexton thing, right? You've got to be scoring, passing, and assisting. I think the level of play is so high and it can't be one-dimensional.

Is he, or is you going to end up being more, I mean, Harrison Barnes is an interesting thought here because is his playmaking on ball upside? Is it Harrison Barnes? Can he get to that level? Because, I mean, Barnes, like you said, good player. I teased about whether he's winning player. But I mean, like, is that stratosphere attainable for him, do you think? At the Barnes level?

I would think so. I would say so, yeah. Something you mentioned earlier, Kyle, about wanting to see more out of Fox on and off the ball. Benedict Mathron, that does not seem to be an issue. The Indiana Pacers, as we saw with him in college, first year plays off ball a ton. Second year at Zona, playing on the ball a lot more.

We're seeing a mix already with him in the summer league. I think the fit with Tyrese Halliburton is going to be incredibly juicy to watch this coming year. I'm excited about, I like three guard combos that can hit you like that over and over again, that aren't coming from one spot. The offense can hit you from a lot of different spots consistently over the course of a shot clock. I think, I don't know if they'll ever play like Duarte and Halliburton and Mathyrin together. They better play the position. I hope they do.

I want to see that. Because I think the deferring kind of nature of those two guys could feed into Mathuron in a way that could be really interesting. That's something we were actually talking about today is are they going to start like Buddy Heald three? Are they going to just play three guards basically? Assuming they keep Buddy Heald. I mean, there's, I mean, the Miles Turner trade talk stuff is still out there. Mark Stein reported last week he doesn't think the Lakers have enough to get Buddy Healed and Miles Turner, which, yeah, they don't. but but yeah i i think that's a safe assumption but like in the context of the report he was saying

you know they still might have enough to get buddy healed like that marriage could end up still happening and so i mean with buddy healed they might be in the kd trade talks i don't know really it's hard to say you know the kd stuff is so strange that's a whole different it's it's all so strange aitin's still floating out there yeah there's like maybe indiana could flip turner for eight and Still, we don't know everything that's going to happen here. And since, I mean, I don't plan on asking this, but if you're Indiana, we're talking about Benedict Mathur and Tyrese Halliburton, would you rather have Aitin or Turner with that backcourt? Sorry, I went into like a zone there. Would I rather have Aitin or Turner?

Turner's spacing is more, is less hypothetical. I mean, I think that's been kind of the thing with Aiton is like we're like, he's been doing this since like high school. we're like maybe he could space, we could see it happening. If he was going to play with that group, I would I would like to see that. I don't know what do you all. I would for sure rather have Aiden, especially with Halliburton and Mathrin, because you're resetting your timeline.

Aiden's so much younger. Miles Turner, I love Miles Turner, a great player, but he's not going to become a front-point score now at this point of his career. The whole point of Aiden is, can you unlock extra offense? And I think playing with Tyrese, I was thinking during the lottery, I mean, no team needs to move up more than Indiana. They could have really used one of these top three picks. So I think for sure, they need like a front court creator.

I mean, if I was Indiana, I'd be going after Aiden real hard, I think. I think that like Halliburton, we've seen that like CP3 was great for Aten developing like the basic vocabulary of what like a big guy should do, like a partner, like a pick and roll partner. CP3 taught him that sometimes painful to watch at times. And it was not like always the most merciful relationship on court, but a lot of yelling, a lot of yelling. Not always the most merciful is a very kind way. You know, but I don't think that it ended well.

But I think that like Halliburton could be a continuation of that. And it could be fun to see them play together. I think that could be fun. So you'd rather see Aiton with a downhill presence over Turner with the versatility to pick and pop. Because like personally, I mean, I'd love to see Aiton there. but I also would love to see Miles Turner get an opportunity to operate in the pick and roll with Hallibur and Matherin. Because I think with Turner, without Sabonis there now, I think you could see the best version of Miles Turner that we've ever seen. There's no question about that.

I mean, there was no one happier about that Sabonis trade than Miles Turner. No doubt. He would have driven Sabonis to Sacramento. We'll just go on a car trip. It's fine. I mean, I think either way, regardless of what ends up shaking out with Aiton and, you know, all these other guys still involved in trade discussions as we enter the middle of July now, for bathroom and haliburton though those two together on paper i think they can be incredible together because of their shared ability to play with the ball or without the ball and do it willingly and do it at a high level

i think those two guys are going to be a perfect back court pairing as long as they're able to defend in a high left level but that's a question for down the line but for the early stages of this team that's retooling i mean i don't think there's anything awkward about that fit at all with those two they're only going to elevate each other. Offensively, yeah, I think it makes sense. I think that you do start to stack up skinny guys is kind of one thing. And they're all around like six, four, six five. I think that you run into issues at some point because there are a lot of big facilitators in the league. Those big sharks are out there. And I think that's, that's an issue for every NBA team. Well, I mean, I think that's a great point because that's like kind of hitting we were talking about

earlier. We were like, well, they go Halliburton, Mathyrne Dwarthewarton. Halliburton. Mathrin healed. And there's not a lot of perimeter size. And yes, defense comes later, but I'm a really, really big believer in accumulating perimeter size. I think that was the one thing for Matherin because he was listed at 6'7

in college. I'm expecting like this big wing, but he's probably only 6'4. So, and that's fine, but as like what Kyle was saying. Did you, like, get a good look at him, like did you floor level? I will say this. Did you look at him and do this? What of my favorite pastime of Summer League is

spec thing about height is like how tall is that guy really like i'm what like is he six five he's six six it's so silly but i feel like it's really important the jarrant culver yeah right the angles and i just think it's so important and this is something i'm curious to y'all thing i was telling kyle this earlier whenever i come out to summer league one thing that really hits home is you see the whole league right all of the rookies basically and the rarity of like perimeter size and speed we see guys like six foot eight six foot nine out here you're like man most these players are 6-4-6-5. When you can have that 6-8-6-9-67 big wing,

and you see it out here, it's like, man, they don't come around very often. And when you get a chance, you've got to get them. Sharks, I want to talk about the Mavericks. Sure. Jaylen Brunson's gone. Mark Cuban says we didn't really get an opportunity to make an offer.

Okay, I got to take about this. I got to say this. This is going to get me in trouble. I wonder, I was talking to some of that, how often does an NBA GM get assigned the client of his son? Can you think of another time? I mean, right? You don't think of it.

And it's all good, but it's like, if I give my son like $10 million, I would do it. Like, hey, here's their 5% of his contract. The doc awesome thing, I guess. Yeah, yeah, that's one, I guess. Yeah. Well, yeah. I just, I mean, like the nepotism thing. Get that four or five percent cut right there.

That's all I'm saying. Oh, yeah, the cut part. Yeah, for sure. Yes, come on. Yeah, it's a strange situation. And there were the report saying there will be some type of tampering charges against the Nix. I'm sure the Mavs are salty. I'm salty.

I mean, understandably so because we know there was, you know, tampering. There's tampering everywhere, but especially in his case. It's just like sweeping water off a beach. Well, it's just like a good young player, especially for a team like Dallas never has any. The only the young player they hit on. Yeah, besides Lucas. Yeah, of course, yeah. man, it was tough.

It's tough to lose Jayland. Well, so now right now we're looking at a, you know, top eight-ish rotation for then Luca, Spencer Dinwiddie, Tim Hardaway coming back, Dorian Finney Smith, Reggie Bollock, Christian Wood, Maxie Cleba, Javelle McGee. Top eight or so right there. How are you feeling about the state of the mavice right now? I'm going to give you the positive spin. I give me the positive.

Okay, so the positive spin, that's a really big team. Like Brunson was her only small guard really on the rotation. And with Luca, we just talk about perimeter size. Dinwiddie's 6-6. He's huge. And Dinwiddie is going to be the key. Dinwiddie, this will be his year two after his ACL. More often than not, that's the year guys gets it back because that's second year.

And now he's just like everything. He has to be the second option. There's not even really a third point card on this roster. So Dinwiddie's going to play like as much as possible. If he can be the Brooklyn Spencer Dinwiddie where he's getting like 20 and five and he's, you know, using his size on D. defense, I think we're all good, but that's the key right now. If the Mavericks get that version of Dinwiddie this year, will it have gone down as the right decision not to pay Brunson, assuming that that opportunity was even there to exceed an offer?

But would that have actually been the right decision? Because now, instead of having Brunson on the books, they could create cap space in 2024, 2025. It's still? No, I've seen the MAVs use cap space for a long time now. It hasn't gone very well. You don't give up young players. You just don't because you trade them. That's what has currency in the league. You don't lose a guy like Jalen Brunson. It's like the mortgage with a salary slot, right?

Yeah, you can create cap space, but really it's having salary slots that's more important the way the league is now. No one to sign this for agents. They don't sign in Dallas, that's for sure. I'd never happen. I mean, that's why Aiton still hasn't signed because even though the Pacers and spurs

are the teams of the cab space that can sign them, they're looking at sign and trade scenarios everywhere else across the league. So to your point, that's why having Brunson retaining him would have been important. Keep the asset. Yes. And so that was the positive side of things.

What's the negative side then? Well, the negative side is now you're really depending on Spencer Dinwiddie. There's really nothing. Literally, because he gets hurt. He's been hurt a lot. Good and bad with the same point.

That's all, he gets hurt a lot. And now he's such an important part of your team. That's tough. I mean, Jalen had such great chemistry with Luca. He was such a big part of that locker room. And then we'll see the whole Christian Wood angle, too. That's going to change

a team a little bit too. Where's your level of belief in Christian Wood, Kyle? He's one of those guys if he can rise to whatever situation he's in. I was talking about that a lot with like Shaden

that he struck me is that there's some players that just like if they get in a situation where they don't respect the situation they're in, they just change. And it's kind of the DeMarcus Cousins thing where it's like

boogie in certain situations would just play differently. And then when he was in Gold State he busted his ass. He looked totally different. It depends on if Wood comes in and he respects what the Mavs are doing. He could look awesome. I mean, he has the tools, but he's just one of those guys that, like, I don't know,

you made the comment about, like, Houston didn't seem heartbroken about him going. They definitely did not seem heartbroken. I think that's fair to say. I think Christian Wood was heartbroken that he signed there to play with James Harden, and then James Harden bounced. Like, that was the whole plan, was Christian Wood is going to be some three-point shooting big who can roll hard to the rim and, you know, make plays off the ball. bounce off the pick and pop and play off of Hardin.

Now you're playing with Luca. To me, on paper, I love the version of Christian Wood we saw his final few months with Detroit. I was excited for what he could have been in Houston. He still averaged 20 and 10 over two years there despite a, you know, a iffy situation, at times, dumpster fire situation. And now he goes to play with Luca. So here's how it's going to be set up.

So the thing is, is like, yeah, Luca and Christian Wood, and the pick and rolls are going be nasty. Christian Wood was going to get a lot of points. He's going to put up really big stats. The thing about it is, though, in Dallas, the way the team is set up, your big men's got to play defense. So the way the Mavericks really got going last year, it was Luca Brunson, Bullitt, Finney Smith. So two ball handlers, two perimeter defenders. I think that's the formula around Luca, but that means your big has to guard. Can you play more than one big if Wood is there and he's spacing? Well, see, I don't like that because I want to have two elite defenders with Luca. I have to have those guys. Full looking finish. So you don't like the

Wood McGee front court for the maps? I don't think that's the best approach. I think it's too big. I think you want a ball handler and defenders around Luka. That means... Wood Cleba? Maybe Woodhleba, but I think ultimately Woods got half to play defense for this team to succeed at a high level. Yeah, with Christian Wood, that's, I mean,

offensively, you're right. He might actually put up all-star numbers. Maybe. He really could, like where he's getting votes. Maybe even makes the team as a reserve, who knows. But he actually do it to actually make that, he's going to have to play the best defense of his life. He's been far too inconsistent throughout his career, far too passive, far too lacks of basic, lack of awareness. I mean, go up and down any way you want to criticize the defender, you could criticize Christian Wood that way.

But in this situation, Kyle, to your point, if he plays up to the situation where the demand is defense, and that's where it's required to end games, to even just start for the team, to have the respect of the best player on the roster and Luca, that dude's going to have to defend. and for him, like, this is an opportunity to be a $100 million player. If he shines in Dallas, that dude is going to get paid with his skills. And I think this is the question, too, is like what you're saying, is this, in his mind, does he think, so he's going to be a free agent, right? I guess the point he'll be free after this year.

Is he thinking the best way for me to get paid is to get 25 and 12, or is he thinking the best way for me to get paid is for the maps go back to the conference finals and me play good team? defense. That's going to be the trucks of everything. Well, I sure hope so. If I get 25th, 12 all defense, I'd be fantastic. I guess some of that all come down to how, like, Luke, I mean, you wonder

where, and then you know more about, like, their locker room kind of situation. It seems like the book on Luca has been that he's not quite there as, like, the locker room leader. Like, you can't really depend on him to be that guy. Just having a good time, man. Right. Okay, it was funny. I was watching Wimbledon today, the Wimbledon final. And maybe some

people here know this. This guy named Nick Curios. he was the challenger for Jokovic. Curios is this crazy talented guy, always been a hot head. And I'm watching him every time he plays, yells at his coach, yells at the ref, every other,

every point I'm like, I'm watching Luke to play tennis right now, man. Wow. Is there any chance? I mean, we're talking about the pros and cons of this roster. Is this late 2000s Cleveland with LeBron? I put that out there.

I'm just, I don't want that energy. I'm just asking the question. I mean, they've been to a conference finals already. LeBron had some deep playoff runs. They went to an NBA finals. Of course, got swept.

That wasn't a LeBron's fault. He had Boobie Gibson, you know, starting on that roster. He always gets the blame. I mean, it's the name. Texas legend, man. It's just pops into my head. It's not his fault. But, I mean, with Dallas, I like the idea of the roster.

It's just the level of talents and that Dinwiddie role, which is, I think, to your point charts initially, a lot of it does come down to Dinwiddie. and what he becomes, but that's also why the draft pick of Jaden Hardy makes so much sense for that. Nice segue. Do you see that? That was good. I thought Kyle was the king of the segues. That was a heck of a segment. Just an all-inspiring trepies artist

of conversational flow. Right to the second round pick. That was fantastic. Talking about upside and development. Wow. Thank you. Thank you very much. Costas over here. With Jane and Hardy, though, big first game, 28 points,

scoring all over the floor, hitting mid-range jumpers, hitting spot up three-pointers off of movement, getting to the basket and finishing against contact, something he didn't do well at all in the G-League. He was terrible finishing around the rim in the G-League. But as someone who I liked Hardy in the draft, I kept them in my top 20. I loved them entering the G-League when he was a top-five high school prospects.

He was a top two high. The top two-outes. He was elite. He was a elite. He was in the 30s in the second round. There's got to be party. huge arcs that gets excited for the idea of what jaden hardy could be long term for the maves definitely i think it was a great gamble i haven't got to see them live yet so i'm not going to say too much but i'm very

excited just in terms of the skill set and we're always talking about like with a big playmaker like luka well that that gives you more flexibility with the rest of your roster so you have a guy like jaden's only 6364 he can like be your quote unquote point guard and just get buckled to play it off lupa and And that's the idea, and it's definitely an intriguing idea. I'm very curious to see how it works out. The Mavs have not developed young players well. But now we have a new coach. I'm excited to say Jason Kidd in that role.

See how that works out. Yeah, I mean, it's, it is the, and Summer League is like the ideal situation for a hearty type. I mean, it's like we were joking with. This year's Cam Thomas, maybe. Right. Cam Thomas is out there. Cam Thomas is a summer league legend. Like, not even the question.

Cam one. Cam Thomas was like, y'all cannot guard me. And he was just like every every time down, you could just see him just like, I'm scoring. I'm scoring here. For sure. And like Hardy is, Hardy has the same kind of energy. Cam Thomas was asked on ESPN today. I forget who asked the question.

I'm sorry, but they said, I talked to your coach Steve Nash earlier today. And he says he's looking for you to create your own shot and create for others. And Cam Thomas had this look on his face like, huh. And then she's like, why, what are you laughing about? He's like, well, it is what it is. It's just a weird response from your second-year player. Well, he knows who he is. Cam Thomas knows who he is.

It's all I can say about. What was offensive about those expectations? The idea of him playmaking. He's here for one reason and one reason only. The idea of passing the ball. Well, it reminds me of Jamie Tard. I've been watching the Ted Lasson thing. I'm not passing the ball.

What? There you go. That's not. That's not bad, actually. I have not watched season two of that. If you started to? From the way people talk about it, I'm hesitant to do it.

people act like it's kind of like it kind of comes down. I kind of gave up on it in season two. Jesse, have you watched season two, Ted Lassau? Really? He's a real positive guy. I could see that, though. Nah, man. It was, he got too much in season two.

It was too sweet. I mean, just come on. Like, no one is like, I'm in charge. I thought, I was told Ted Lassow season two became dark. But I'm in. There's layers of emotion in season two. Well, there was one episode where like he helps, like, girl who's like deaf or something. It's like, what does this make a wish?

I'm going too far right now. Jesus. What is this? You're going to make it too long, I guess. No, I think the SEO for this is Jonathan Charks's Heart of Darkness. It was like, that was like, where is this coming from? That's just my take. I'm a TV guy.

John was like, I don't need this positivity. What are the shows of you guys been watching? Anything? Oh, man. Or anything you got lined up, maybe. What we do in the shadows have been watching, catching up on that. Other than that, I haven't had a ton of time, honestly. I've been watching the old man on FX.

That's pretty good. I've heard that's good. Yeah, it's pretty intense. Jeff Bridges and John Lithgow, like old CIA guys, that's pretty good. I was told I need to watch Winning Time, which I haven't started yet. Oh, I watched it. What's that show on Amazon? No, no, no.

Jack Reacher? No. Watch it's fun. Now we're just doing KOC's. KOSC and I do this every time I come to on. It begins with an S. This is great. We got to figure out this mystery.

Do we? Google that. I don't know. I'm not sure. I did, yeah, I did watch the scheme that HBO does about.

Severance. Severance. Yes, that's on Apple TV. Okay, I've heard severance is amazing. What should be top of the list? Severance or winning time?

Yeah, I saw winning time. I really like winning time. Really? I mean, is it like an Adam McKay? I mean, just not that style,

not a fan. I don't know. You watch winning time, Kyle? Winning time, I had, I don't know, I'm kind of in the middle. It's like they did some things I didn't really care for. Like I thought the, I agree with like the points. Are you going to sue like Jerry West? I'm going to say justice for Jerry West.

I'm not going to sue. I just kind of like, like, Waz talked about this. I told him, I appreciated it. I kind of think I'm not trying to turn it serious here. But I think it's kind of, I think it's kind of lame the way people like kick around like Appalachian, Indiana kind of people like it's okay to do that. And I just thought that was like a needless shot to like make the comment that they had Larry. They made it look. like Larry Bird's family were like in some like I don't it was just a weird thing I don't you'll

you'll see if you watch it but I it's an entertaining show if you're really hung up on the history of it you're gonna have a hard time but it's an entertaining show I'm not okay I got a question for you are you excited for the two bachelorets yes um however I didn't watch the last season of the bachelor so I you got to watch the last one I think I say I feel like I get a binge watch the last season just watch the finale how he was acting when that Clayton was the most insane thing I ever same. It was crazy. So Clayton, they built Clayton up as a, you know, a nice guy. He's good with kids and all

that. I don't think so. Was he not a great guy? When he was acting on that show, I don't think so. Is he just all about polygamy? Is that what happened? Okay, I mean, I'm not going to go that far. I don't know. I don't know what happened. It was weird. It was like, come on, man. You're not going to go that far, but you were going to dis, like, uh, like helping a blind child.

Where is the, where is? I can't figure charge out. I have, well, I have levels. But he was in love with multiple women at the end of the show, right? I wouldn't even say that. He was just trying to do what he. Oh, I see. Now they have two bachelorets. Well, the thing is, he broke up with both at the same time.

And now they're talking. It was ridiculous. Now they're in the same pool of men. Yeah, so it'll be an interesting format. I'm curious how it goes. Are you going to watch, Kyle? I have never seen a second of the bachelor. Really?

Not a solitary moment. It's fantastic. It's a fun show. It's a lot of. A lot of smart people like it. I mean, you know, I haven't gotten around to it. What else do you guys have going on? What else do you guys have going on?

What else do you guys have going? on in Vegas. What are you going to do last day here? You know, we're going, we're going on a big family dinner tonight, the ringer family. That's going to be fun, Momafuku. I was, I was wondering if David Chang was going to personally make our meal at the table. I was hoping he would. That's what I was told. We'll see. But anyway. Yeah, and then we're going to do an upside high pod, probably middle of this week, kind of wrap up summerling our observations. Kyle has a notebook coming out too. Trying to get a notebook done.

Video or written? Written. Written. Kyle's a writer now. I know, yeah. As a writer, you know, I try. Yeah, I call it. Ryan Rusillo as a writer as well. Yeah, we'll try.

We'll see. Charks and Kyle. This is a lot of fun. Yeah, I love that. That was great. Shout out, shout out the void. Never. Yeah.

We're in the void right now. It feels great. Anything else, you know, about Summer League? Any other overall thoughts? It's good to see your hair, charg. What do you think about Vegas, the city, chart or either of you guys, like, is it your speed or do you like, what's the time limit for Vegas? I guess is it like, is it 48, 72 hours, how long?

To me, I'm like, I look at it by a number of restaurants I can go to. So I'm like, okay, if I'm here three or four days, I have my standby restaurants, then you can try the new ones. Vegas, when you eat like a king, it's amazing. That's the best part to me. It's the moments in between that wear me down. I don't know. I just kind of, it's not. What are those moments in between?

I'm from a really green place, you know? I like trees. I like grass. The big city is hard for Kyle. He likes to do this country mouse thing. I live in a city. I just, I like, uh, I just, I don't know.

It wears me down. And as like a pale person, you know, the sun, the beaming sun, it's just like after a few days. Getting a tan. That's even better. After a few days, it's, it's time. I mean, to me, the key in Vegas is daytime. Just stay inside or in your cab, your Uber and go to your destination. For sure. Nighttime, the dry heat in Vegas, I like walking around Vegas.

Nighttime KOC is out and things are happening. I mean, at nighttime of Vegas, if you need a video project, I think that's one that we could do. know if it'll be suitable for the ringer. If we can just film KLC walking the strip. Man on the street at like 1 a.m. in the morning. This man knows no rules, folks. You don't know, you guys don't know KOC. This guy is a maniac.

No, definitely not. This is true. For sure. I'm definitely not a maniac. I'm very chill, especially at night. I saw him getting a bar fight the other night. I swear to God. You know, I've never been in a fight.

Really? Have you ever been punched? No. Not once. Sharks has been punched. I've never. I've had a chair thrown at me. I got punched in the face.

You ever been to fight sharks? I have been. You win them all? No. No. But that's okay. It doesn't know. Kyle?

I can see sharks getting in fights. Yeah. I could see the sharp tongue of sharks just like getting somebody. Maybe. I mean, I guess. No, I've been, I was a big trash talker as a kid. I got punched in the face. How does this fight all the time now at basketball court?

I got punched. Oh, yeah. I'm like a maniac. I've tried to tone it down. But, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a, I've talked a lot of trash on the basketball court and, uh, on, on, on Xbox live.

Okay. I can't picture that. You can't picture that, really? You're talking trash like while playing basketball? I can't. I'd love to. Should I start streaming war zone this summer? No, I'm in, like, I'm in person talking basketball.

I'm sure you talk trash. I am very toxic on, uh, war zone. I can't get it out of me. I think we've got to close on that. That's perfect. I'm very toxic. I can't get it out of me. He just said that.

There's just, I've learned to accept it. I think we're good. I realize that's where all my negativity comes out. It's on the competitive field. I'm toxic. Yeah, I've been punched many times. Hopefully I avoid fights.

In the future, I think you will. KSU you're a good guy. Anyway. Chawks, it's been good to see you out here in Vegas. Yeah, I've had a great time. It's been awesome. Fun to see everyone for sure. It's amazing to see.

Yeah, and I'm stoked about dinner tonight. I can't wait. No more focus. It's good to just be back out. It's not like COVID's over or anything, but it is good to be back out to see people have enjoyed it a lot. Charks, Kyle, love you guys. Thank you for coming on. That was a great time.