The Mismatch - The Chet Holmgren Show, What Will Happen With the Warriors, and the Raptors' Chances

Episode Date: March 18, 2022

Verno and KOC go through the first day of the NCAA tournament and how the top prospects performed (01:40). One of the top prospects, Chet Holmgren, blew the guys away (09:12). Another day and another 50-point performance in the NBA, this time from the Pistons’ Saddiq Bey (19:24). Just when the Warriors were getting healthy, Steph Curry gets injured and the guys discuss the effects his injury will have across the West (31:36). The Raptors are on a five-game winning streak, and the guys debate whether they are a team who could make some noise in the playoffs (41:54). Does Skip Bayless know something about Kawhi Leonard that we don't (50:34)? Also, they discuss the Donnie Nelson lawsuit against Mark Cuban and the Mavs (55:05). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For as long as I've known the NBA, it's been a Stars League. But even among the Stars, there's an exclusive club. Russell and Dr. Jay, Jordan, Kobe. They're all part of a select group that paved the way for the NBA superstar of today. And some even shared secrets with each other along the way. From Spotify and the Ringer podcast network, I'm Jackie McMullen. And this is the Icons Club. Welcome to the mismatch.

I'm Chris Vernon. He does every Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k. Kevin O. Bomber, Kevin O. Candyland. Kevin O. Concerian. Kevin O. Climplict. Kevin O. Cannabis. Kevin. Verneau. What's going on on this Thursday night when we're recording here?

How you doing? Well, we are recording late Thursday night. And I am sad to report to you, Kevin. My bracket is already destroyed. Iowa Kentucky I believed I believed

in Iowa and Keegan Murray and that was a bad call Kentucky I mean I was looking for teams with pros you know people watch this

NCAA tournament in there's always a faction that have their own favorite team of course there's a lot of NBA fans and a lot of listeners

of this podcast watch it to see the prospect. They look at your draft guide that goes up on the ringer, which just dropped this week perfect timing right before the NCAA tournament. At nba draft.thringer.com if you want to browse while listening to the mismatch. There you go. And you can look at all those different players, and you can see a lot of them involved in the NCAA tournament this year.

I was very, very happy about that. And if you're not paying attention to college basketball throughout the year, people use this as an opportunity to see these guys. And so I go out of my way to watch Chet Holmgren playing. And I go out of my way to watch David Roddy for Colorado State, who I see in some bog traps. And I go out of, and John Holliger mentioned on the podcast with us earlier this week. And the list goes on and on and on of guys that then you seek out to watch. And also in, you know, in picking a bracket, in the end, I know that typically the talent wins out. There have been some weird teams in college basketball history, like the Chabazz Napier team didn't, wasn't loaded with pros.

but that was that was kind of like the, you know, early 2000s Pistons, you know, that won. It's like, yeah, okay, they didn't have a bona fide first ballot Hall of Famer superstar and they won a title. But generally you need that guy. And same thing goes to college basketball. You usually got two or three at minimum pros. Like guys that play in the NBA, even at Virginia team. It's like two or three pros. You could go back to

Even like that North Carolina team that wasn't that good The Joe Barry team with Luke May They had, you know, Theo Pence in You know, who's played in the NBA And Tony Bradley who's playing the NBA. They had two or three on there And so I tried to just find the teams that have a bunch of talent to go forward Which leads me to Kentucky

Oh my God, a coach Cal coach team losing early in the tournament again, failing to have any type of offense against the zone. Couldn't do anything. Up eight, three minutes to go. Up eight three minutes to go again. And they lose to St. Peter's, which this is why we love the NCAA tournament. I've never heard of the St. Peter's Peacocks in my life.

And then you fall in love with the coach after the game. Oh, he's great. What was that quote? Holloway, right? Yeah, Holloway. So after the game, he was asked, do you ever get nervous? And he's like, nah, for what? It's basketball.

It was just a great quote, the way he delivered it. Yeah, St. Peters was awesome down the stretch of that game. And Kentucky, man, like, Wheeler couldn't throw an entry pass to the post. Tai, Ty, Washington, the whole game just seemed off. And he was the guy that's been kind of, they got keeping them calm, running their offense the whole year, and he wasn't getting touches down the stretchers. Just a really strange, like a strange day of college basketball, but that was a strange game especially.

It was, and that can hurt draft stock, just because you're not under the bright lights anymore, and a lot of other guys are, and you underwhelmed when it mattered most. I'll tell you this, man, I take old Oscar. Holy moly Kevin that dude is a beast I don't know what he projects as

in the NBA but I'll tell you this he's gonna grab rebounds against anybody I mean he had like four guys on him he had what the guy ended with 30 and 17 or something like that on a team that doesn't even know what the hell they're doing he had 30 points 16 rebounds

8 to 12 free throws 11 of 16 from the field two steals, two blocks, two assists. Yeah, he was a absolute monster. Give me that guy was in like a good culture with some good coaches. And I take him and I just figure it out. You know. He's got the motor and he is downright dominant, man, at times.

You know what he reminds me of, like in terms of college prospects and this, like it's another Kentucky player. but Jared Vanderbilt was also an absurd rebounder at the same school and he's having a historic rebounding season at the same school and Vanderbilt had some of the similar questions about him entering the NBA and yet he's an important player on a you know a pretty good team we know at certain points this season so I mean with Jared Vanderbilt there is a road to success for a guy like Oscar well and rebounding translates Kevin

it it translates it translates The guy is just, he's got a gift. He has a gift for rebounding the basketball. And he's got to, he's got to be better defending against wings, guards. And today's NBA, like being able to defend on the outside is of the utmost importance.

But I mean, but he's not athletically deficient. No, he's not. Like, how many guys have we talked about in the past? Even, even when,

you know, I don't know, who's a super versatile big band defender? Bam, out of bio. Bam, another Kentucky guy. Another Kentucky guy.

Bam. was not this good there. Exactly. But he became it. He became it through his training, improving his athleticism, everything. All that goes into strength and conditioning

in the NBA is on another level from what anywhere else in the world does, any other league. So if you're in the right situation, yes, you can improve. And so maybe, yeah, he's got a shot. I didn't have him in my top 30

in the first edition of the draft guide we released. We'll see if he ends up there. But I, like, I'm roughly on my board. He's like in high 30s right now. But we'll see. That could change. he'll be in the first round that would not be my prediction it's still so early man

he'll be in the first rankings at this point look they just got knocked out by st peters and i walked away being like damn this guy this guy goes but too bad for two it sucks from an NBA perspective when NBA prospects get get knocked out early you bring up but upsets are fun

you bring up bam I was at I was at the tournament where Deeran Fox just absolutely maimed Lonzo, but then they got knocked out by that Luke May shot, the famous Luke May shot. I was in the arena for that. And you think back, and that team was like Deerrin Fox, Malique Monk, bam out of bio. Like, this guy's got so much talent all the time. It's unbelievable.

And they lost to that friggin Justin Jackson, Luke May, North Carolina team at the buzzer, no less. Yeah. in that game. I was at that game. And Bam was not that. You know, and you see what he's become special, special talent himself. So anyways, players can change. While we're talking about the prospects, the Chet Show.

Oh, boy. You know how many people tuned in to watch him. And you're probably thinking as you're watching this game, at least I was, what the hell is going on? Georgia State is like right there with them for like 30 minutes of the game. And then Gonzaga just cranks it up. He cranks it up. And next thing you know, Gizaga, you know, runs out on him completely.

And you look at the final score for anybody that watched a game, I think it was like a four-point game with eight minutes to go. I mean, I'm sitting there watching it like, what the hell is going on with Gonzag. And Chet, you see the numbers that he tallies. It's like 19, 17 rebounds, seven blocks at one point. I don't know what the final counting stats were. What did he end up with in the game?

The last I saw was like 19, 17, 7, 4 assists, 2 steals. You're close. You're really close. He had 19, 19 points, 17 rebounds, 7 blocks, 5 assists, 2 steals, including. that nasty play. He kind of reached over and then took the ball the other way for the layout. The dude's nasty, man. The assist, some of the assists that he had in the game, I felt,

because sometimes you hear about chat, people say, oh, he's not necessarily a creator. He was a creator in high school. He's not a creator at the college level because so much of their offense runs through Timmy. But he had this pass around the time that run started, you mentioned in the second half, 10, 11 minutes left where he drove into the middle of the

paint spun back that was left and was really well defended, but he drew like three defenders and immediately, instantly kicked the ball out for a wide open three. And it's like, okay, that's what we're going to see from him in the NBA, a seven footer who can attack off the dribble and do spin moves and draw help defense and then find people with an open pass. That's the next level of a guy who's already potentially a defensive player of the year candidate and a seven footer who can shoot three. He's like, that's the next step, which is why he's number one on my board. Little stuff like that. All adds up. And he's not even, it's not even just the kickouts.

Like, you figure in the NBA, he throws the ball and they do as a team, they get the ball down to like what would be the dunker spot just for like almost like post up layups. Like those are dunks in the NBA. They like, they have, they should call it the layup spot for Gonzaga. Because they just get it along that baseline. And then they get great position and end up laying it in. man, he is he is so damn good

in the open floor for his size. He really is. Like watching him and watching the kid at Auburn, Jabari, and some of the, I just cannot believe the way these guys move at seven feet tall and just the

insane level of skill they have. know, the way the handle is, the way the shot looks, and you just figure, man, oh, man, this guy, to come in and be that awesome as a freshman is not easy either. You've got to be a special talent to be able to be dominant as a freshman. I mean, how about, you know, like we even saw on the first half of that game when things weren't going well for Gonzaga, but Drew Timmy ran a pick and roll with Chet Holmgren screening for him and threw a lob that Chet Holmgren,

guided into the basket when his left hand. And it's like, oh, in the right situation, you know, you're going to see Chet Holmgren in an exact situation like that with two bigs running, you know, running pick and roll. I remember years ago when the Pelicans had AD and to Marcus Cousins, and they did that for a little while? It just made me think about that. Some of the early success of like these highly skilled bigs who can do what guards do

and do it at a high level. And you know, I know that Memphis team very, very well. Oh, yeah. I'm excited for that one. Some rough and tumble dudes. So, and look, they got athletes, man. After the slow start, Memphis got tough. And they've got athletes, and they've got a potential lottery pick themselves and Jalen Duren.

And their power forward is D'Andre Williams, who's 25 years old. He's 25. He's older than Devin Booker. All right. Don't ask me to explain it. Isn't that crazy? All I'm saying is if your question is, yeah, well, how's Chad Holmbrun going to look when he has to go up against, you know, NBA level athletes? And how's he going to look when he has to go up against some guys with some muscles, you know, because that's, you know, his frame is something he gets beat up about.

Like, look, we're about to find out because I'm telling you, look, if you never, if anybody out there hasn't seen Jail of Duren, Duren looks like a damn mini Dwight Howard. I cannot believe he's 18. This dude has muscles on muscles on muscle. He's barreled chested. He's huge. He's absolutely huge. He's super athletic, too. So he explodes when he leaves.

Frico. Yeah. And like I said, DeAndre Williams is literally a full grown man. So you're about to find out how Chad Holmgren holds up against some of the things that people wonder how he can hold up against, which is real size, real, because I promise you, you could throw Jalen Duren in an NBA jersey tomorrow night,

and he wouldn't look out of place at all. Yeah, he'd fit in athleticly. And in fact, he'd have one of the best physiques on the team and on any team. He's, it's ridiculous. He doesn't need the strength and conditioning help. No.

He just needs some time for skill development over, over the course of time. It's amazing how different it is for every prospect in terms of what the strengths and weaknesses are and what they need to work on. But we're like, Duren, like, he's, we're talking, we were just talking about, like,

defensive versatility. Well, think about what, when we say, he doesn't need to improve athletically, but he will, he will get better. He'll get nimbler. His hips will move quicker. He'll change directions quicker. And he has the natural ability

to become one of those highly versatile on-ball defenders that can switch across positions over the course of time as he continues to improve. I mean, like, he could be absolutely absurd on defense. Yeah, and they got guards that'll scrape the ball away from you. I mean, they can get after it now.

You're picking Zagabelle, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Were you surprised to see Bates get in there today, three minutes, hit a shot? Absolutely shocked. Yeah. Absolutely.

Would it be cool if he had a moment after this crappy season? If he had, at a moment. Yes, it would be cool. I mean, that would be like a this is March moment if Imani Bates hits like a major three down the stretch or, you know, hits a pull-up jumper, isolation. Like, I don't know. You never know. You can't rule it out. It's so funny you say that because I was watching, I'm going to admit this. I saw somebody post, hey, on CBS Sports Network, they're running John CalParis press conference and I had to flip it on. I just had to watch it. Oh, yeah? I had to see it. I saw it. I swear.

swear to God, one of the questions was about, was it possible that Shaden Sharp could have played in this game? He was like, bro, you just lost the fucking St. Peter's. Well, what did he say? I was curious. What did he say? We had a discussion, you know, a couple weeks ago, and, you know, the mealy mouth about it.

Like, don't know if he would have been able to help us. Isn't that too bad? We didn't get to see Shaden Sharp this year. I really love Shade and Shade and Shardt's hand. Yes, yes, it is too bad. But on the other hand, like, it's not the reason that she lost the St. Peter's. Yeah. It's a cool question, but it's like, oh, he would have saved the day.

You lost the St. Peter's. It's not like you didn't just, you didn't lose to Gonzaga. I mean, the thing with Coach Call is like, he's the same guy that didn't let cat shoot threes. Devin Booker didn't run pick and roll. I mean, like, it's happened time and time again with his top NBA prospects over the years where even if he did have Shaden Sharp, it doesn't mean that he would have. have been empowered in a role that could have led to

maximum production. Coach Cal has proven that time and time again, unfortunately. And also, they couldn't beat the zone. They couldn't beat the zone. Oh, my God. Oh, that's what he said. Just couldn't get him to throw it in the middle. Look, I'm so excited to watch so many of these teams, we had a very, very, very

good first day. And now I'm excited to watch. And maybe some of these other guys that can put their name into the hat. You know, of these small school guys that could possibly put their name into the hats. I love Teddy Buckets at New Mexico State. Just the whole thing.

I just absolutely loved it. He was conference player of the year. I saw Mike Schmidt tweet out that Teddy Buckets went up to him in the middle of when he went there to watch a game. And he said, you know, I'm one of those guys. Yeah. Watch me all year. He said, watch me all year. I'm one of them ones, I promise.

During a dead ball midgame walked over during New Mexico State Davidson. That's a lady Mike Schmitz tweeted out. Mike Schmitz. Mike Schmitz is the man. Yep. So anyways, super excited to watch all of these different prospects as it goes up. But my bracket went to absolute crap. There was.

I think everybody said, who's been it? Unless like Roger Sherman tweeted out earlier, unless you pick the mascots, good luck to you. Peacocks. Yeah. spiders, Richmond? Spiders too, exactly, yeah. That was a pretty good one too. There's only one NBA game, and poor Sadiq Bay.

Yeah, nobody cares today because it's all about March Madness. Pistons Magic, 51, 51. 51 points for Sadiq Bay. He was nasty. Did you see some of the pull-ups? He's hitting off the dribble. It's like, damn, dude. He's been doing it all year by doing it at this level, you know?

Really interesting, too, because we've talked about this. before about how, you know, he really impressed as a rookie for sure. And sometimes there is that lull that goes on because you only get to take the league by surprise one time through. And so you do it the one time. And then the next time I always talk about where your name is on the chalkboard and you're an afterthought. And then the real, the real ones are the ones that can progress and progress.

And like, because the next time around, you're now on that scouting report and they know what you want to do. There's a book on you. And so now it is run this guy off the three point line. See what else he can do. Like there's. And so now you've got to adjust as an NBA plate. And some guys just don't, right? Some guys, their best years are their rookie years.

That's not nearly as uncommon as you would. think that your first time through is actually when you find a lot of success because as time goes on, the NBA gets a book on you. And then that's what weeds him out. That's the guys that are going to have long careers and the guys that are going to be something more than maybe even what they appeared to be in their rookie years. And let me tell you something about Sadieq Bay. I saw him in person earlier this year and he was one of those this year that, you know, I've referenced many times to you,

but seeing guys in person and, like, there's some guys that you're just, you're shocked when you end up getting around them. That dude is big. big. He's big. Very tall. Big.

Wide frame. Big wide shoulders. He is so, I guess I just had in my mind, like, you know, wing player, tall, you know, maybe a little lanky. He is a big dude. And it was shocking to me when I walked up on him.

Just, I don't know. Like, I guess my. perception versus what he actually looks like, but you see if a person, he got big muscles, I mean, the guy's big, man. Sadiq Bay. He's skilled, too, man. Yes.

Like, it's crazy. He's a bucket. I mean, he's out of Villanova, projected as a, as a safe bet to be a three-indee guy. Yeah. And you see a little bit of flashes off the dribble at Nova. But to see what he's turned into in such a

short amount of time in the NBA, it's really a testament to the amount of work that he's put in as a player to get so much better off the balance where he's hitting step back three pointers against a really good rookie defender and Franz Wagner and he's hitting turnarounds from the posts on the left block and he's hitting screens running hard to his right and shooting right off the catch it's like the amount of skill level that he has with these the diversity and the amount of shots that he can take is so wide and for Detroit look man You know, this season, they're not a good team.

They're not, but it's exciting now because they've got two things to really get excited about. Exactly. You might have had some misses or some worries, you know, in terms of your youth, like Killian Hayes has not worked out so far. Other guys have not. But you get Sadiq Bay, who looks like potentially one of the leagues better three-and-e guys because he's more than a three-and-e guy. And then you get Kate Cunningham, who already runs the office. It's like a seven-year NBA veteran in terms of the control and the command he has in the pick and roll. So with those two guys, and even though right now you're one and a half games back from Houston and Orlando for the top lottery odds,

you're still at 14% with them for the number one pick. You still are at 52% for the top four. You're just not in that one slot. And you get a heck of a lot to feel good about, too, on top of that. Yeah, especially because what you want to do is, pile a bunch of guys that are kind of in the same age range, same trajectory. And then you can fill in the gaps around that. Yeah.

You know, you got at least two. And then you hope that either one of these other young guys that you really, you know, progresses, that you really want to believe in. But in terms of putting a core together, like, okay, here's guys. And there's at least two absolutes that can be part of your young core. to build out around. And they should have kept Bruce Brown. You know, they should have.

Now I think about it. There's never been another guy that could have fit with this. Because they actually did hit that one in the draft. Yeah, but they weren't using him the way Brooklyn used him. I get it. But, you know, Brooklyn with the guard screening, like, it's so much different than what he was being asked to do in Detroit. Like, if anything, with Detroit, it was sort of just not, basketball fit and or just a mis-evaluation in terms of imagining what his role could be.

But for Bruce Brown to be what he is, it requires having Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. Maybe so. That's what empowers him to be the guard screener that he is. But maybe it'd be pretty good with Cunningham and Bay now. It's all I'm saying. But maybe they don't use him that way. And it's just you maximize Bruce Brown what he's doing now. I think the reason why I say that about Brown is just because the guys like him at so much

situation and opportunity. He's a role player. I mean, that relates to what we've been talking about, Chris. With the NBA draft, so many of these players are going to come in as rookies and their success or failure early in their career is going to depend on their circumstances with their teammates, the system, how the coaching staff use him. There's so much stuff that's out of their control that they could fail with their first team.

And then it's not until you're with your second team or sometimes your third team where you're in the perfect situation with the types of players and the type of system that complements and enhances your game in the appropriate way. It's, it makes it really, really hard for the NBA draft. Kevin, since we last spoke, there was a monster injury in the NBA, and that was Steph Curry, which just happened on Wednesday night. Marcus Smart dives for a loose ball. Curry's leg gets trapped.

He ends up tearing some ligaments. Thank goodness, nothing serious, serious, serious. as like a surgery requiring injury or something like that. You see Steve Kerr barking at Marcus during the game, being upset about the play. And then, of course, the news comes out that Curry is going to be out. For some time, there seems to be some very hopeful news that he would be able to be back by the playoffs.

That doesn't necessarily happen. help them in terms of seeding and any kind of race for seeding. But that is so far secondary to just having him healthy and available by the playoffs. I mean, that's all anybody's concerned with. But let's backtrack. What did you think about Kerr being upset with Marcus? I don't know. I mean, I don't think it was necessarily a dirty play.

I understand why you're mad about it. And I understand why you defend your players. I think, you know, that's something that any coach would do in that situation. Maybe so. Maybe you would. Kernie's to be a little bit. Curney's to be a little bit careful, though, to me. Because Draymond Green's on his team.

You know what I mean? That's why. That's why. That's why. What do you mean? Why? Why does he need to be careful? Because he coaches Draymond Green.

Because you live in the gray area, too. when you, you know, would Draymond agree? And so it can happen. Draymond himself said it last night. I mean, he might be unnecessary. That's all he said. No, this is the full quote. This is from Jared Weiss from the athletic.

I can't call it a dirty play. I would say it's an unnecessary dive. If you said someone on the Celtic team dove for the ball, I'd tell you right away Marka Smart dove for it. I saw the kick, but shit happens. I've kicked somebody before. It is what it is. That's what Draymond said, according to Jared Weiss,

who is their post game. Yeah, because he kicked Clayton. I mean, there's two plays that succession made it a little bit worse. But, I mean, look, I don't view Marcus Smart in the same way that I view like Pat Bebeth. Like, I think Pat Bebub does things that can hurt people. I mean, he slapped LeBron on the ass the other night after. Well, obviously, he hurt Russell Westbrook's feelings. There's no question about that.

He certainly did. He probably hurt one. But there have been. Cut very deep. He also hurt Russell Westbrook once upon a time. It might have ruined their chance at a real title run that year by diving at him. And when you saw it, you know, he went and pushed Chris Paul in the back after he got beat last year. I mean, I don't, I don't do Mark.

Marcus Smart is a dog and Marcus Smart plays hard. and that's a loose ball and I want guys on my team that are willing to dive for loose balls and I'm sorry that Curry got caught in the crosshairs but I don't think in any way that Marcus Smart had any other ideas except for ball on the ground

I'm taught go get that ball on the ground 100%. I mean you can see it playing hard. I'm sorry that you got caught in the crosshairs but that's an accident that's not exactly that's an accident it was an accident he dove for the loose ball it was a great play and then he immediately tried to pass

and Jason Tatum. No, I mean, and I look, once upon a time, C.J. McCollum broke Mike Conley's face. His friggin face broke. And I'm here to tell you

that even though C.J. McCollum has been a bona fide gris killer, like the guy, you could, you could put C.J. McCollum versus the Grizzlies in any game and he'd score 45 points. No matter what jerseys get on, no matter what the circumstances, the guy has always

been awesome against Memphis. But nobody blamed him for Mike Conley's, you know, like stuff like that. It sucks. It happens. It was so wildly, obviously unintentional. And that's kind of how I viewed the smart thing last night. It sucks, man. But I don't think he's.

I don't think it even Like there are some guys that Do things that absolutely could hurt an individual And I think they don't even care If it could hurt an individual But if anybody has ever Marcus Smart's got a track record of playing that way And you even

Kerr after the game totally walked it back He really did He walked it back after the game And then And then talked about how You know I'd love to coach Marcus Smart Marcus Marta Warrior and whatever.

He got to walk the back. It's just unfortunate. I think he's the moment, right? It's just unfortunate. That's all. I mean, it's just unfortunate, like, it's an unfortunate situation. It sucks that Steph is going to be out.

It sucks that, you know, Clay Thompson comes back, then Draymond hurts is back, then Draymond comes back, and then Steph gets hurt. Like, it just sucks. It sucks. It was so nice seeing those guys

embraced at the end of the game, and now one of them is out again. It just sucks. It's disappointing. It really is. Like, it's really sucks. I love watching those guys play basketball. together. And now we can again,

maybe late in the season, maybe early in the playoffs, we don't know. Well, and you figure they've got a big enough lead that, so they're probably they're probably not getting to two. That's probably going to be the Grizzlies that get that two seed.

Congratulations, Chris. How do you feel about that? You feel good? With the way it looks right now, that is an infinitely better position to be in than three is. Yeah. They've got a three and a half game lead over Utah. So I don't think they're in any jeopardy of dropping any further.

You know, we're getting to that point in the season where... Are you sure, though? No stuff? No stuff? It's 12 games, I know, but no step. I'm just pushing back here a little bit, Chris.

Are you sure they have a road trip coming up, but it's against some iffy teams. I mean, Orlando, Miami will be tough. Atlanta could be tough, but John Collins is out as well now. Washington, then you got Memphis at the end of that trip. Then there's Phoenix and Utah. Like, they have some tough games.

If they didn't have Draymond back, I would feel different. Again, with only 12 games left, with a three and a half game lead, you've got to get that other team. Oh, yeah. Totally. I mean, that other team and that other team either, I would actually be most worried probably about Dallas.

Dallas. Exactly. Dallas is also only three and a half back. And they have the second best record. in basketball since December 31st. I was like, you know, me and Dan Devine talked about Dallas the void this week and just

talk about basketball. Obviously, that story came out today that we'll talk about in a little bit, but Dallas is on fire, man. Like, you, I, I don't think you can rule it out. Would I pick the Golden State Warriors to slide down to the four or the five? No. Because for the exact reason you're saying, but no

Steph. I know, but let's, look, look, it's just a question of, if you go 500, Let's say you go 500, right? Yeah. I mean, Dallas even going nine and two in their last 11 doesn't get you there. You know what I'm saying? It's hard.

Three and a half with 12 to go, you really got a crater. And the other team has to like not lose at all, you know, for that to get flipped. I think they're pretty safe. But the question is, who knows what happens with that six seed? Because, you know, you've got Utah, you've got Dallas. They're both one and a half up on Denver. But Denver's only one and a half up on Minnesota. And obviously, if you're Golden State, I guess what you'd be rooting for is for Minnesota to play, you know, two games better than Denver the rest of the way.

and flip that. Next thing you know, Denver's a 7 seed and now Memphis has got the booby price. Yeah. I mean, that's when it can't,

like Minnesota could, if Minnesota flipped it and somehow played two games better than Denver down the stretch here, which isn't, you know, they're nine and one in their last 10. They've been cracking.

So that would be the damnedest thing, is if, you know, you're Memphis, you celebrate getting two. And, oh, God, Minnesota flipped thunder. And now Denver's the frigging 70. Wouldn't it be better if you compete all year to get the two-seat?

Then you get to choose your first round opponent. Wouldn't you so much better? Instead of worrying about this bullshit straddling in the standings, like, I don't know, you gave me the choice. I don't want to get into it again, but just gave me the choice. Well, then it takes away all of that fun. It takes away all of that. in some ways

I disagree because then you still have the six seven race you still have the teams that are fighting to get into the head I don't even know who's playing because if you're Denver you want to still hold on to the sixth seed because if you're in the seven seed

then you need to win in the playing tournament you want to succeed because then you avoid the playing tournament so that's going to get me excited about these games every night who's playing for the sixth seed yeah why wouldn't it because they avoid They avoid the plan. But they can still get chosen.

Yeah, they still could. I still don't know who their opponent is. Like the reason I like looking at the seeds is because I like seeing who would play who, dependent upon the way it shakes out. I mean, I've never liked that personally. You don't? No, I've never been a big fan. Not, not.

No, I haven't. My whole life, my whole life have always just been kind of annoyed by teams purposely losing games just because of seating. It's just, you know, I don't know. I'd rather the other way. Well, a lot of them purposely win games for the seating, too. In the past, I've been the type where it's like, wake me up when we know who's going to be where.

I don't know. I've just been less excited about that over the years. You don't look at the matchups all the time? Of course I do. And see, who would be playing who? Of course, because that's the rules of what the game is today. I'm just saying when it comes to what you're saying. I think you're just defending this idea that you have.

But the idea that these aren't a lot more fun because of the way it is right now is outrageous. If they're just going to choose at the end, then what do I care about any of this? Except for who's in. But yeah, exactly, except for who's in. That's the incentive. Well, I mean, we know pretty well is in now. Memphis is fighting to choose before Golden State can. Golden State, despite their circumstances, is fighting for the opportunity.

to get the third choice instead of worrying about sliding down and potentially getting the toughest possible matchup because of their end season injury. I don't know. I just think there's a lot like every single team you can look at and say, oh, they have reason to move up in the standings, not reason to say, oh, actually, we'll drop these next two games because we'd rather get this team that's locked into the seat. That, that to me is just silly. Well, I mean, I guess there's reward in just choosing the easiest opponents you can possibly

choose, but I do like the idea that you might have to go through the fire to be able to get there. No, not the best matchup. You're not picking it like, oh, this would be our best matchup. You're picking this so somebody you think you can beat. Yeah. You're trying actually to pick the worst matchup. Well, the best matchup for you, I mean. Yeah.

So how is that good for the viewer? How is that good for the fan? How is it not good for the fan? Because I'm getting a pit. You get that anyway, though. Like Phoenix is going to face the eighth seat. Wait, which is better? Me watching whoever, Phoenix play against possibly the Lakers or whoever, I guess whoever would be eight right now.

So whoever ends up in that eight spot, let's say Denver dropped down to it or whatever. Unlike. Or them just choosing, we want to play Minnesota because they have no playoff experience. I don't know. I don't know. You don't know. That means Denver's facing Golden State or Memphis or Utah or I don't know. Like there's another great series.

But I don't know. Everybody is picking their easiest road in your scenario. But as you said, though, if you pick that and you lose, it doesn't guarantee victory at all. It's just a... But it's a lot better chance of victory if you're picking your opponent. Maybe. Maybe.

What do you mean? Maybe. What's the point of it? I don't know. It could. It could. If it's not easier, the point of it's the point of it.

The point is the incentive of getting the first choice. Of getting the preferred choice for your team and your organization. I know, but that's not good for the viewer. I'm a fan. I don't give a shit. I'm a fan. I want to watch the best.

I just want to see how plays out. I don't care if it's a tough matchup. I'd be curious. I mean, I don't think it's fair to say it just wouldn't be good for the viewer. It might not be good for the viewer. Maybe it turns out that it's bad to do something like this and that I'm dead wrong. I admit that that's possible.

There are pros and cons to everything the league can do in terms of... But you would admit you're asking them, the reason that you're doing this is so the best teams can choose an easier opponent than what they might get. Yeah, I'm trying to give the regular season more meaning for every team in the entire league. and you create some rivalries that over the course of time builds because you chose a team. There's no team rivalries in the NBA. I miss that. I think it sucks that there's no rivalries.

I think it creates that. I want some animosity. I want some of that. To me, like, that's what it can create in addition to the fact that down the stretch of the season, teams are trying to win games to move up on the standings, to get first choice, to get a lock in the playoffs of the top six seed,

to get an opportunity to win only one game in the plan, to get an opportunity to be in the plan. And then at the bottom, to get higher draft lottery odds. Every team has incentives to move up or, you know, depending on how you want to look at it, with the lottery, move up or move down. What about a lottery odds?

So we do have, in the Eastern Conference right now, it feels like it's locked in. Because those top 10, that's not changed. We have, it's a three, it's actually four and a half now between Atlanta and Washington. So Charlotte was able to hold on. Atlanta was able to hold on. And Toronto is probably going to flip Cleveland,

and it's kind of wild because there's four that have really separated themselves in the Eastern Conference. And Boston is one of those four. You got Miami, like, you know, just last 10 games, and you see the way these teams have performed down the stretch here. Miami, 7 and 3, Milwaukee, 8, and 2, Philly, 7 and 3. Boston, eight and two. And then Chicago, three and seven, Cleveland, four and six, Brooklyn, five and five.

And then Toronto, who is trying to flip it on Cleveland to be able to not have to play in a playing scenario. And poor Cleveland, who had just such a great season. And then it started with the Rubio thing. And then it happened with the, and then they went and got Rondo. and then he got hurt, and then, of course, the worst one,

Jared Allen. There's such a great story all year, and it's just, it's just gone the wrong way, completely. They still are a great story, though.

They are, they still are. They still have wildly overachete. For sure. And I mean, the development of Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, doing everything he's done

on both ends of the court as a rookie. Kevin Love. Kevin Love, you know, resurgence. Isaac O'Coro, having,

you know, figuring out a role in this team and excelling. They're still a good story. And for Cavs fans, like we talked about last week, they're undoubtedly going to slide down to seven. I'd be shocked if it didn't happen. Toronto is too good, too deep, too healthy.

And the fact they just won five games in a row on the road. Like I talked about this on the void, but like 14 of their last 18 games on the road. Brutal. They've spent four days in Toronto. Like since the All-Star break. this team, they're not necessarily going to beat some of the favorites,

but don't you feel like, Chris, that they are a threat to at least make it a tough, deep series? Yeah, I mean, let's say they flip it with Cleveland. As of today,

I know you don't like to do this, but we're going to do this. We're going to look at what their matchup would be. I'm not saying I don't like to do it, Chris. I'm not saying I don't like, could they win a couple, right now they just prefer something else.

Okay. right now they be playing Philly. Could they win a couple games against Philly? Yes. Could you push Philly to six? Yeah. Their home court advantage is real. And you got to remember a place like that,

they hadn't seen playoff basketball forever. I mean, it's been a long time. I bet Toronto will be a hornet's nest for the playoffs. They got all their guys healthy. They could win a couple games for sure. they win a couple games. I don't think they could beat any of those top four.

But your question was, could they make it a series? Yeah, they're dangerous enough. And then if you caught an injury, they could catch you. They're good enough for that. I mean, once Nurse just started running these guys into the ground and playing his five, six best players, 40 minutes a night, they got about, they don't have depth. But they do have, you know,

know they got good players one through seven i don't know man i disagree they have what they have they have because they're winning games with bantan and mc my high luke earlier this year and wantanabi and now those those are the guys that aren't playing and the guys that are i mean getting sad young was a pretty good addition for their rotation precious achua has been terrific for them recently boucher has figured things out they get some guys on that bench it's just they they they lack the top end more than anything else. It's because they're the type of team. It's a different guy every night.

There's not like this premier superstar that's carrying your team. But I don't know. I think they have depth. It's just eight guys. And that's tough for the regular season. Like eight primary guys. But, you know,

it's not like Banton and Svi weren't horrible. I mean, even last night, they beat the Clippers. You got a Chua gets 26 minutes and Boucher gets, 22 minutes off the bench. Dad Young got 12. They don't play much. They don't play much.

That's some Nick Nurse, the channeling Tom Tibbeton, right? With the heavy minutes. It's what he's doing. I mean, I'm pretty sure. I remember maybe about a month ago, we looked at the minutes per game in the NBA and it was like three Raptors up top.

Let me look to see what it is right now. Right now, minutes per game. Number one, Fred Band, Bleet, 38.1 minutes. Number two, Pascal Seacum, 37.6. Number five, O.G. Inanovi, who's out right now, 36.7. So, forgive me if I don't want to hear about the depth. Three rappers in the top five, four in the top 16, because then there's Scotty Barnes.

But all I'm saying is that, like, I don't think their bench sucks. Like a chew-in-law-nick-nurs. Tell Nick Nurse. Because the night before, Boucher got 20 minutes dead, Yon got 15. That's it. I mean, but I want to say, like, I don't think playing your best players more necessarily means that the guys that are getting 22 minutes per game suck. That's all I'm saying. No, but he only plays seven.

Yeah. I don't. He plays seven players. He plays his best guys. I don't. I mean, I wonder why, maybe because he wants to succeed. Hey, maybe so. Maybe that's why he probably wants to get there.

I think he wants to succeed, which is why it symptoms of help. And I think it's. I think it's good enough. I think it's good enough to win a couple of games. Yeah. In the playoffs, I do. Get it to six. Something like that'd be a hell of an accomplishment at Toronto and this year when they were

unexpected by so many people to be worth a damn to get into the playoffs. If you push a team to six favorite, beyond an accomplishment. I claimed earlier in the year, like where I did not, I said, when I went through their roster, I'm like, like, this is just not good enough. It's not good enough. I didn't know he's only going to play seven guys.

If I knew he was willing to only play seven and he'd just play them 45 minutes a night, I would have changed my projecting on them because they do have, he's pulled it off. I don't know if they'll be running to the ground by playoff time, but I do think they could win a couple games. The West, you know, the Lakers being two and eight

down the stretch and then New Orleans, It's five and five. New Orleans is, they're one and a half up on San Antonio. You can't imagine Portland's going to get there because they don't want to get there. Like, they can't help themselves. They can't help Josh Hart. They got to tell Josh Hart to sit down. It's their only chance.

Josh Hart, clearly a listener of. Force of nature. At least a listener of the Chris Vernon show. Force of nature. Force of nature, Josh Hart. They're going to have to sit him down or else he's going to drag their ass to the playoffs. San Antonio, I watched Lonnie Walker hit that game winner last night. Against Tanking Thunder.

Yeah, against the Tanking Thunder. They're one and a half back from New Orleans. And I guess it, you know, at least it's putting some pressure on New Orleans. And San Antonio is not going to quit playing. Yeah, I mean, Popovich wants to extend. his league is the most wins all time for an NBA head coach. A big congratulations to him. We're about a week late, but that's okay.

Yeah, we are. Congrats, pop. Congrats, pop. Oh, by the way, why did Zion come in town? How about that one just coming and going? Did he just come in because they were releasing his shoe and they needed to be able to have photos of him? Oh, like all the photos of him like with the dogs and all that. And we just haven't heard anything about it since.

Yeah, I don't know. Just the whole damn thing is so bizarre. It is strange. Like he finally came back in town and I was like, oh shit, here we go. He's going to play basketball. Nope. He's not going to play basketball. Every time I see a picture of me, he's like standing on the court and like a baggy warmup shooting a free throw.

Or he's at a restaurant. Did you see, I know it's Skip Bayless, but Skip Bayless has been on point with everything. regarding Kawhi Leonard. And what Skip Bayliss said in passing this week in context of talking about Ben Simmons, out of nowhere, Skip says, I've been hearing Kawhi Leonard has been playing one-on-one, two-on-two, three-on-three,

four-on-fours, even been doing some five-on-fives. Skip Bayliss has been on top of everything with the Kauai injury, where Kauai's going. What's next for Kauai Leonard? He's the only one in sports media, really. He really does. Way ahead of the Kauai stuff. And I've been saying for months now,

don't rule out Kauai Leonard and Paul George returning late in the season. And I feel like... Yeah, it would not stun me if in this weird world we live in, somebody in Kauai's circle loves Skip Baylor's because he defended him. He was a huge Spurs fan. Uncle Dennis, I guarantee you. I guarantee it. Like, I actually believe.

I believe Skip does talk to somebody that would know about Kauai. No doubt about it. 100%. No doubt about it. He clearly has a source. He clearly has. Incredibly close to Kauai Leonard, if not Kauai himself. And like maybe it's Kauai who loves

watching Skip Dayless. What if Kauai loved watching Stephen A and Skip growing, you know, like when he was younger in his career. You never know. What if he loves Skip? I'm telling you, though, you can't rule out the potential. You talk about that two seed? Again, talking choice here. If you know Kauai, Kauai,

letter to Paul George aren't coming back. Nobody wants to face that team, dude. You do not want to face the clippers with those guys. The West could get loaded pretty quickly. You mentioned him in passing. You mentioned him in passing. What about the Ben Simmons thing? Like, I guess

he really does have a hurt back. Yeah. We'll see what happens. So you got a shot? Yeah, I know, epidural shot. We'll see. That's not a kid's game. No, that's an anti-inflammatory. Yeah. So what they give you when you're in labor?

Mm-hmm. It's supposed to help you. You think he's having a baby? Mm, maybe, maybe, never know. Could be. Stop. Go for the natural birth, man. But I don't know, I don't know.

I didn't. I was a C-section, baby. how about you, Chris? I was not. Oh, you weren't? Okay. No, I was dropped on my head. Mom shot me against the wall. Can you tell?

The abilical cord just snapped when you got out. So, no, so I guess he really does have a hurt back, and hopefully he's able to come for the playoffs, too. Who the hell knows? I know this. I laughed my ass off the other night, but I did. see a tweet come by, forgive me. I can't remember who sent it. But it said, Unvaxed Kyrie is the best NBA player ever. Where was that? It was on Twitter. It came across my timeline.

Because it was the night he had the 60. I know you did a video about it. Bro, that was some like superhero stuff. Oh, it was incredible. Did you like my video? Did you like my video that I did? Yeah. Yeah, I thought I'd like it too. The reaction video. People can check that on my Twitter, because I didn't watch that game live, Chris. So I watched all the, I watched all 60 of Kyrie's, you know, made points and made baskets from a 60-point game live on camera. It was so fun. I had a great time.

It was amazing. I started getting texts in the first half. Oh, yeah. When he was like at 34, 35. And then, of course, he had like 42 by halftime, I think it was. Yeah. And then it's like, oh boy, are we on 80s? 81 watch.

And of course he got pulled. He had eight minutes to go. He might have gone for it. If that game was close, he was doing anything he wanted on the basketball court. Transition. He could have at least gotten to seven. Maybe not 81, but he could have at least gotten to 70. No doubt about it.

No doubt about it. He had eight minutes and 32 seconds left when he got to 60. The last thing before we get out of here, this is not a comfortable story to talk. There's a very public legal spat going on between Mark Cuban and Donnie Nelson. Donnie Nelson, who was in the front office for basketball ops for decades, you know, with the Mavs.

He was, when you thought about the Mavs and their hierarchy, he's the basketball guy, right? And of course, we had all those stories that came out about the Rick Carlisle and Donnie Nelson and all these, like, all the infighting and all the toxicity that was going on in Dallas. And then, you know, they cleaned house, you know, and they brought in a new regime. and then it drops that Donnie Nelson's got a lawsuit against Mark Cuban. And my first reaction, as I saw this, lawsuit against Mark Cuban, was, oh boy, this is about to get bad. And that's even before I read it. the reason I thought it's going to get bad

is because when I talk to people that I know in Dallas that have covered this situation one of the things about that whole fallout was if there is like the bad ill will between these two parties it could get really bad. Like I had been told that before this ever, happened. And so then when it happens, I'm thinking of myself, oh, because like, evidently, Donnie clearly did not have good feelings walking out the door, but everybody was

just going to kind of go on with their lives. And now it appears they're not just going to go on with their lives. And the reason that it seemed like it could get bad was because if there's two guys in the world that know everything about it. other that have all the dirt on each other, it's Donnie Nelson and it's Mark Cuban. And this is like two superpowers pointing their nuclear weapons at each other. And that's how that felt. When I saw the first release, for those that don't know, Donnie Nelson is suing Mark Cuban, the mask. And in the lawsuit, one of the things that it claims, is that his nephew was the victim of sexual assault by Mark Cuban's right-hand man.

Average chief of staff, Jason Luton? Yeah. How do you pronounce his last name? Luton. Luton. Okay. Yeah. Jason Lute.

So, look. And also it alleges that Mark Cuban offered a $52 million settlement to Nelson to withdraw the wrongful termination and he wanted them to sign an NDA as well. That's what is alleged. And Donnie Nelson says, this is what happened.

Mark Cuban says this is totally false. And the Dallas Mavericks have come out with their own statement and I think that people are bracing for a Mark Cuban statement, which may be

out by the time that this pod drops. So there may have been already a real advancement in the story by the time you hear this podcast. But one of the things that was very um,

okay, look, anybody can read this stuff. I think it was Donvanatta, right? The, the, that wrote it for ESPN. I believe so. I guess he just had all the Jerry Jones stuff too. So he's got this whole story. Um, that story

about the the right-hand man of Cuban and the nephew and this stuff. It mentions in that story that Luton is a gay man. From what I was told, that has never been known until tonight. When Donnie Nelson with that, he was not out of the closet, as it were. That has never been common knowledge. And so when we're talking about like nuclear weapons being pointed at each other and stuff like that, like this is his, this is Cuban's right hand man. And so like this story comes out and it even mentions that in the article.

And that has never been, I mean, for people that even cover the Mavs or around the Mavs, he has not been, that is not been. that has never been revealed or that has not been he hasn't been he hasn't chosen to make that a public his sexuality a public matter and so that's when you know this thing

is like again we have no idea what happened we have no idea but Mark Cuban If he says That this is all a lie

Which he had Yeah He said this is all a lie And this is somebody trying to Right Nate Palm everything You know He's mad he got fired He's mad the way it went out

He hates this guy Who's my right hand man who helps run All of my businesses And he's trying to burn and everything to the ground, and he's coming up with this story about him, you know, because he knows

that this is going to get printed, and these accusations are just all false, and he, this is like extortion. This is extortion. That's what I bet he's going to say. That's what I'll bet. That Cuban will say that.

Yeah. Like sometime maybe Friday or next week, something like that. You can't say somebody's lying about all this shit. You can't. you can't say he was very forceful you see the statement very forceful this is a lie he didn't take part in this investigation he's trying to recoup this money I mean that that's that's why like this thing is

only at the beginning here and as you said I mean it's going to get worse because not only that like in 2018 of course the Sports Illustrated story about you know the misogyny sexual behavior and the front office and everything that transpired after that, this is once again another sign of an incredibly

dysfunctional organization, at least during a certain period of time. I mean, again, we don't know all the details. We're just learning of the story. But this is another sign where it's also possible Cuban is digging his heels in here. And that's why it's coming out so forcefully because otherwise he could be in trouble.

Well, that's what's, That's what struck me is for you to come out and say, you're lying. It's all fabricated. Yeah. This is that this is all. This is a fantasy that you've made up to try to destroy us to make us look terrible because you know that it's going to make us look terrible. But this isn't so. And in the meantime, you just, you know, attempted to take my right.

hand man's sexuality and make it a matter of public discourse, which that was not, that's not how he chose to live his life. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like people didn't know. People didn't even know this. Yeah. Well, I mean, ultimately, I mean, I, like you said, like by the time people hear this podcast, it's very

possible more stuff comes out by that point. I mean, I'd be a little bit surprised we're recording, recording this. currently 9.20 p.m. Pacific time right now as we're having this conversation, it won't shock me if in 12 hours, you know, waking up to some news. Yeah. That's for sure. And like I told you at the very beginning of this, Kep, somebody told me if those guys ever do, like, get into a piss and match that it's going to be, there's two guys that spent 20 years ago, they know everything. Yeah. They got the dirt on each other. and so you saw

it's actually so sad that people could have such success and work together for so many years and now this is happening all in public statements being released for people one guy saying this horrible thing happened

to me and my family and the other saying that's not true and you're trying to you know like it didn't work out with us but now you're trying to burn everything to the ground because you're mad and it's like holy yeah we'll see we'll see what happens ultimately did you read their statement it said in the end we have chosen not to speak about

why donnie nelson was fired yeah it's like the last line in the maverick statement yeah that's a threat the maverick that's a threat that the mavericks the last line i'll read it. Mr. Nelson is fully aware, as is the NBA, of the reasons for his termination at the end of the 2020-2020-2020 season. The Mavs have always intended to hold private the inappropriate actions of Donnie Nelson that led to his termination. That's a threat. You're right. It's 100% a threat. And it's a response to what was in the complaint by the Nelson side, where they said Cuban will be held to account for his lip service and false public persona and repeatedly ignoring and repeatedly covering up high-level executive sexual harassment. discrimination against Mavericks employees. Both, like, this is just getting started. Oh.

And it's, you know, it, what, I mean, we'll find out, I'm sure. Sad. What actually happened. But it's just, yeah. Sad all the way around. It's sad. It is. Yeah. It's sad.

All the way. All right. Hopefully we end up with unbelievable NBA prospect performances in this NCAA tournament as we end on a lighter note that the NCAA tournament going on throughout the weekend. And we're going to get to see a lot of these guys with the biggest spotlight on them that they've ever had. And I can't wait. I love the draft. I love the draft guy.

By the way, let me just say this in all honestly. Not just because we do the show with our friends. It looks great again. Doesn't it look beautiful? The artwork's always great. The interface is great. Works on my phone well too. Mm-hmm.

Even have like you can listen to it. a clip from upside high with Charks and Kyle Mann. I'm sure at some point we'll install some clips from our show or The Void or whatever like into that, you know, podcast. Ryan Rusillo's show. He just had an opening segment talking about what he's

learned on his show about, from NBA teams about some of the top guys. We should get that in there too. But yeah, the guide, the guide is gorgeous. The people who work on it do an unbelievable amount of hard work behind the scenes to make all of the guides we do have. It was fantasy football, NFL draft guide, NBA

draft guy, the food rankings, whatever it might be. Let me give me a little, they bust their butts, man. Here, since you were talking about putting the audio clips in there, just have an audio clip of Kyle Man crying under every Kentucky profile. Oh, yeah, I'd love that. That's his team. I love that. And boy, he's got to just, just like,

so I click on Tai Tai Washington, and it's just Kyle man going, or just a clip of him being like, damn it, Cal. Kyleman's the man. Don't man. Trust me. I bought this damn microphone so I'd sound like him. Spotify won't expense that, Chris?

No, and guess what? And then I realized it's his voice. I thought it was a microphone. Kyle's got a great voice, doesn't he? He does. I said, what kind of microphone set up you got? He sent me the whole thing. I bought the thing.

I went back and listened to it. I sound like the same idiot. I was like, shit. I thought it was it. You had an awesome mic. Last year talking to Chris Ryan about like, pod stuff. I was like,

I think Kyle, man, can host. He's doing great with Charks, man. I'm glad we kind of split up Ringer NBAU, because Kyle and Charks, they kill it together.

Kyle's such a good host. Charks is so smart. I love listening to those guys. I don't listen to a ton of pods. I always try to check in on upside high. It's got to do it for our show. We'll be back on Tuesday. Thank you to our executive producer,

Jesse Lopez, as always. And we will talk to you next week. Have a good one, everybody. and apologies to Murray State for their exciting overtime victory over the San Francisco Don's another great college team. Congrats to John Moran.