The Mismatch - The Jokic Case for MVP, Finals Pretenders or Contenders, and the Russ Drama in La La Land

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

Verno and KOC begin the show discussing the level playing field in the East and West (01:40). Both are excited to watch the race to the postseason, with several teams chasing a playoff spot. KOC shares why he believes the 3-seed is the real 1-seed in the East (07:43). Verno simply can’t believe what Nikola Jokic is doing with the Nuggets as the guys discuss his case for back-to-back MVPs (09:08). After the Bulls dropped their fifth straight last night, they are starting to look like pretenders more than contenders (27:10). KOC continues to nag Verno about the Celtics and their Finals chances (32:30). They discuss last night’s Mavs-Jazz game, specifically the interaction between Rudy Gobert and Luka Doncic (37:00), before diving into what is going on with the Warriors (43:45). One thing is certain for the Warriors: They need Draymond Green back. Also, they go into the last night's drama around Russell Westbrook (51:22). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringar Wrestling show is getting you closer to all things pro wrestling. The Masked Show with David and Kaz drops every Thursday on the feed, along with the new show hosted by pro wrestling superfan Evan Mack called MacMania. Plus, hear instant reactions to all the biggest WWE pay-per-view events with their post-paperview shows. Check out The Ringer Wrestling show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Miss Match. I'm Chris Vernon. It's joined me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'O. Bomber, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Conflict,

Kevin O Candyland, Kevin O Cannabis, Kevin O Comment, Kevin! Burnow! It's Tuesday. How are you doing, man? What's going on? Everything's great, and we are now in the home stretch. Something that we had talked about a few years ago leading into this home stretch is what would it be like if there were a play-in tournament and teams were going to be jockeying for position

down the stretch? therefore making those last 20 games, which felt like, man, let's just get to the playoffs if we can hit fast forward, would make it much more fun. And, you know, if that's in theory, and now to see it work out the way it has, I got to tell you, these last weeks of the season have gotten infinitely more interesting because of that play in, Because of the possibilities of seeding that you're looking at. I mean, I'm looking at it every day. And I'm thinking of myself, oh, my goodness, what if we get Brooklyn, Philly in the first round? Oh, my goodness. What if we get Pelicans, Lakers as a play in where the pelicans need them to lose so they get the better draft pick?

And it's Brandon Ingram, you know, and Anthony Davis against New Orleans and maybe Zion. ions back and like you start thinking about all these different things because the possibilities are greater. And I do think that outside of the very few tanking teams that are putting forth no effort, so a lot of teams still competing in these last, you know, 15 to 20 games of the year. I think it's great. It's unbelievable. It's absolutely unbelievable. And I think down this final month of the season, it could only get better. It really could only get better. I mean, right now, we have the Wizards in the East a game and a half behind the Hawks, two games behind the Nets for the 10 and 9 seed for those two teams.

Atlanta being in the 10, Brooklyn being in the 9. And as you said in the Western Conference, there's still time for some shuffling to occur there. I don't think New Orleans is going to fall out of it necessarily with Portland and San Antonio right behind. But there's still always a chance. Or maybe the Pelicans slide up the standings ahead of the Lakers. possible too because there's only a game back. There's a lot that can change right now.

And I'm just excited for the entire final stretch. It's going to be great. When you just had a terrible break for Cleveland, who was in a very coveted six spot. So you've got all these teams and you don't predict free fall. Bobley was out of his mind and they played very well in their last game where they lost him after about 10 minutes of time. But it's going to be a really rough go without a very, very significant piece to what they do. And so you've got Toronto. And we're talking Jared Allen injury.

Yeah. The fractured finger that he occurred earlier this week. I mean, when it says indefinitely, never good. No. I mean, Evan Mobley, he's going to have an opportunity to possibly win rookie of the year. Oh, I know. I mean, or lose it. Because you got Kate Cunningham, another big game last night,

where he could catch up, but not having Jared Allen for Cleveland, that means two things. It means you're going to see more Ed Davis, more Kevin Love, and way more responsibility on Mobley's shoulders down the stretch of the season. Today, we're talking about on March 8th,

this is tough for Cleveland. They're in the sixth seed. There are only six, three games ahead of the Raptors to slide into the seven spot with the plan. They're only a game back from the Celtics at the five spot. Boston's thriving right now.

If Cleveland's able to maintain a top spot and Mowgli's able to have more great performances like he did the other night with that win for the Cavs. That could clinch Rookie of the Year for him. But the invert, the other side is, you know, Kate Cunningham's averaging 20 plus for the whole month of the year. No, you're right.

That rookie of the year has gotten really fun because there's two sides of it. Either you have the real slide for Cleveland or he starts playing a lot more center. He's playing next to Kevin Love. And, you know, and he explodes. He could. And all of a sudden, like now that what fills the void of Jared Allen is more Evan Mowgli.

And that he is ready to take that on. That's certainly a possibility. And then his numbers actually see this massive boom in the last month of the season. It's a possibility, too. That rookie of the year is going to be great. Not as great. I'll tell you what. though, Chris, I wouldn't bet on it.

I wouldn't bet on it with Cleveland. Like their defensive regression, the recent stretch here, last eight to ten games, worrisome. The weeks before that, it was a slight dip from their elite early season defensive efficiency.

But what we've seen the last couple weeks from the Cavaliers, to me, they just seem a bit tired. There's some fatigue that's built in. Evan Mobley at this point of the season. It's this rookie year. I feel like there's, he's hit a little bit of a rookie wall. Can he push through?

We'll find that out. But I wouldn't bend on it. They just seem like a bit of a tired bunch. I don't. And it's a bridge too far. I mean, they start the season losing Sexton. Yeah, you're right. Rubio was essential to what was going on there.

And then they go get Rondo. I look on the bench. Tim Fraser's over there. I'm like, they brought it. They brought it Tim Frazier. just because, like, they can't keep a backup veteran point card healthy. They were such an amazing story this year. You hate to see it.

Still are. Still are. Yeah, going the wrong way now at the end of the season. And you've got to believe that to the original point, those teams behind them smell blood in the water, that that is, if you want to guarantee yourself a playoff spot, now you've got to win at a very high rate, but it's a possibility to move up there. The doctors have a shot. Anybody else,

I don't think Charlotte, Brooklyn, Atlanta has any shot. Yeah, I think Brooklyn's, what, five and a half? Yeah, exactly. So Toronto has, we'll lose the tie breaker, though. So they're three and a half back, but Cleveland would win that tiebreaker. So it's going to be tough for anybody to catch them, but the Raptors could, if they want to.

If they want to, that's the thing. But to that point, how then that three seed looks so much different, right? because that's who you're going to draw. The three seed, Chris, in the Eastern Conference is the true one seed. The three seed is the true one seed because right now with Brooklyn and that playing, they would have to win two games in order to make the postseason. And that would mean that the one seed right now, the Miami Heat, would face the Nets in the first round.

I've had so many people around the NBA tell me, like, well, why would you go for the one seed or the two seed right now in the east with the next? looming threat of the Brooklyn Nets in the first round, you're screwing yourself potentially, getting the three seed. If Brooklyn faces Miami in the first round, which is possible, just based up the current rankings,

you want to be in that three seat again on the two-three side of the, of the bracket. You don't want to be in the side of Brooklyn. I think it's most likely that they're going to get seven. Yeah, yeah, they could just move right up seven. Then you're playing two. Yes.

Which is Philly. Yes, which is possible as well. Oh, my God. Yeah. If we got Philly Brooklyn first round, anyway, we're talking about that rookie of the year. That's one of those races that's going to come down. I cannot remember.

And there's usually two guys that are in an MVP race that we're kind of deciding between very late in the season. Somebody can make a late push. But right now with the three guys, it felt like at the beginning, this is going to be an amazing race. The beginning of the season, Embededed got all the narrative.

Mbid, Mbid, Mbid. We even talked about it going into the All-Star break. Probably his to lose, as he is the one that is the favorite right now. Yokic was still getting love, but now I feel like this last week or so, he's totally flipped it. And while Mbid is still playing great

and putting up big numbers, the Yokic thing has gained a lot more steam, and that's because of these back-to-back performances. I watched the one against the Pelicans the other night, and he did it again. Monster performance against the Warriors last night. Two games in a row, and that's coming off of an overtime game against the Pelicans.

But, Kevin, I... There's no bad choices. Let's just be clear on this, okay? There's no bad choices in this. But I got to tell you, when I was watching him the other night, there was a moment where I was watching that game, where I thought to myself, nobody else could do this.

Nobody. It was Austin Rivers, Aaron Gordon, Monty Morris, and Jeff Green. Will Barton had twisted his ankle. So that's who he's out there with. He's the guy. to worry about. You know, many possessions are bringing a second guy on him.

He's knocking down threes. He's going to the basket and bashing Valanchunis into the third row, bloodying his lip. He's hitting shots from the elbow. I mean, it was from under the basket out to 35 feet. And I tweeted this guy is a force of nature. Like, from under the basket, unstoppable, elbow, unstoppable. unstoppable and then he was knocking down threes.

There was one possession. He grabbed it off the rim and drove 94 feet and laid it in. And I'm thinking about, and he had 30 points in the fourth quarter and overtime combined. My son has him on his fantasy team and we were watching that game and he looks over at me. He goes, dad, and I said, what? He goes, Yokic has 160 fantasy points. I said, what? He said, I've never seen that in my life.

160. And I'm like, well, I never seen anything like this dude in my life. Like, it's the, like, if we're, we always argue about the definition of most valuable. But let me tell you this. Ain't nobody doing what that dude's doing with those other four guys. You know. Nobody. You know, I love John Moran.

And John Moran got some. love, especially after his 52-point game. I ain't trying to watch John Morant with Austin Rivers, Aaron Gordon, and Jeff Green and Monty Morris. Like, Kevin, like, he has flipped that narrative, and I think rightfully so. I would incur anybody that, you know, is not a believer, just watch who he's out there with. Austin Rivers has been bought out of damn near every contract he's ever had.

Aaron Gordon's, you know, good role player. Monty Morris is, I don't want to say replacement level, but I mean, he's, you know, he's a backup point guard, probably, on a really good team. Jeff Green, again, another buyout guy. It's just, it's freaky, man. Freaky what this guy is doing with who he's doing it with. I don't know if anybody else,

if you could put them in his spot and them have the success that they've had, I doubt. Hell no, there's no chance because with Yokic, with Yokic, he is his own. There's never been anybody who does all of the things that Yokic does. Like, Yolkich is such an unusual, unique player, really in the history of the league, the way in which that he operates on the court.

and with him doing everything that he's doing this season and doing it the way in which he did. He wins MVP last year with a historic offensive season. This season, he's even slightly better offensively. He's even way better, notably better defensively. He has become a more well-rounded, complete player after winning MVP, him doing it in the way in which that he has this year with Michael Porter Jr., struggling earlier in the year

with his injury and getting sideline. Malmari still out the entire year recovering from his torn ACL surgery. For the Nuggets, you just mentioned that coveted sixth spot in both conferences for the Denver Nuggets to be six in the West right now, even with a chance to move all the way up to four. Slim, slim chance to get up the three right now. It speaks to Yokic's greatness and his ability to lift up his teammates. All those names you listed, all those guys, Austin Rivers, whether it's Bones, Highland, who would have a, DeMarco. Campazo. Now you get even boogie, granted he's not sharing the court with Denver,

but like he's still on that roster coming off the bench. Bryn Forbes? I mean, like it's a lot of different types of names on this Denver Nuggets roster, and yet they're still beating really great teams every night. It's because there are no answers for Nicola Yokic. There's no answers with him on the post. There's no answers anywhere. If you replaced him with just a dude, just a guy,

Like a replacement level play. They're probably like bottom five. The team wins 15 games. Yeah, they're bottom five. Exactly. But with Yokic, with Yokish, there's no answers. Like, if you post up Yokic, I was looking at this last night because on Wednesday, with the episode of The Void, I have talking to somebody about the Nuggets and about Yokic.

And I was looking at this last night because with Yokic, this year, if you look at the most frequent post-up players, Yokic is number one in most efficiency. If you remove the passes from all of the post-ups, he's still number one in post-efficiency. So if you're looking purely as a score on the post, Yokic is number one ahead of Mbid. If you're including the passes, which he's better than anybody at doing,

he's number one ahead of Embed. He's one of the best shooters as a big man from the perimeter. He's one of the best at attack and closeouts. He's one of the best everywhere on the court, on offense, It's everywhere, no matter what action, coming off of screens, coming off of handoffs, running pick and roll himself. You could put him anywhere on the court and he can make a play for himself or for his teammates. And this is a guy that you watch defenses react to him where they're throwing help. They're throwing doubles.

Sometimes they're not doubling. It doesn't matter what you do. It really doesn't matter. He finds a way. And this Nuggets team, if they're able to get Jamal Murray down the stretch, if they're able to get Michael Porter Jr. To me, they are, like we are good last week about the Celtics being a final sleeper. The Nuggets are the final sleeper in the NBA. When you have an all-time great, having a potential back-to-back MVP season, getting their second and third best players back. Yes, Nicola

Yokic is the MVP favorite with one month heading into the final stretch of the season. Yeah, he's flipped the narrative. And I do wonder, we used to always play that game when we were kids, right? Like, you know, the idea of could you just, if you just put that guy on that team, would they be good? Like you do, we still do it like in the NFL, right? Like Aaron Rogers, we don't know what's happening with him. If we took Aaron Rogers and we put him on whoever the sorriest team is right now, right? Would he get the Texans to the playoffs next year? And then you have this kind of, you know, and then you have the debate about it. But that stuff never really plays out. Like, this is playing out. Like, what would happen if you didn't have anybody else?

If you just took a bunch of guys and threw them with him, could you be good with just him? Like, if you, and it makes you think, like, who's the, who's the worst team right now? I guess the worst record. It's not the Pistons anymore. Worse records like Houston, right? Houston. I think it's Houston. No, it's Orlando right now, I think. Okay, Orlando, perfect. I just saw them in person. I don't know. Maybe it is Houston. They're both. pretty bad. They're tied probably.

Yeah, they are tied. It was both 16 and 49. Okay, fine. You put Yokea John Orlando. They're in the playoffs. That's a crazy thing to think about. What if you put Russell Westbrook on the match? Stop it.

What do you mean? I don't know if we should even say his name. I've got a word he's going to kick everybody's ass. He is. Well, his wife with her tweets yesterday. day. I know the story was about what we'll talk about it later with Westbrook post game, but she, she responded to a tweet saying, if you put Westbrook on the magic,

they're in the post season. She's like, agreed. They're not in the postseason. Wait, that happened? Yeah, that really happens. Oh, for goodness sakes. Come on. Kind of says a lot. It says a lot. Well, we can slow down on that one.

I did just, I saw the magic the other day. I saw the match. I saw him this weekend. That's not true. At Ben Stenar tweeted if you put Russell Westbrook on the Orlando Alando Magic, the worst team in the NBA guarantee you they'd make the playoffs.

And Nina Westbrook responded, agreed. Hmm. Well, but with Yokic, to your point, Chris, if you put Yokic on that team. Do you think Rob Poling is calling them this morning? Hey, I saw this tweet. You guys got any ideas? I don't think the magic rancor.

And they have Jaylen Suggs and Markell Fultz, Cole Anthony, Franz Bogner. The Magic have a bunch of guys you want the ball in the hands of young players developing. I was glad to see, you know, Fultz have been back a few games before that. I was glad to see him. He was moving great the other night.

So I was happy about that. Doesn't he still, like, move so fluid and fun? He does. He really does. He moves great, but he did not use his time off on the shot. I promise you that. Well, his free throws, this season, he is three of three from the line. He shot a three and could have been sued for assault by a fan.

His mid-ranged, his free throws, those are gotten better every year. But the three-pointers, I don't know. That three-pointer that he shot was a book shot. You had no idea where that thing was going. There's still like some, probably some structural issues in that short. older elbow, whatever. I don't know what it is, but it's ugly. It's too bad.

One more thing on the Yokic thing. All I'm saying is that the narrative's flipped a little bit. I don't want to take anything away from M.B. In the season he's having because M.B. Again, last night, just absolutely unbelievable. That's what I'm saying. This is not one of those where I'm stumping for Yokitch right now, where you are, for that matter.

It's this is the way the season goes. these guys are both having absolutely unbelievable seasons. And you got the Yonest thing kind of looming. You know, and if they hit a big run and they closed out the year with some freaky record and he's going crazy nightly and has some big, big moments, now, you know, he's not going to be third. But right now it feels like there's a three-man battle, two guys probably have the lead on the third guy,

but these last 18 to 20 games are going to determine it all. I love it. I love it. And they're both amazing. And if somebody voted for Embedd, I would not criticize them at all. No, because it's it's those three.

It's Janus, Embed, and Yokic. And those are the three guys where, I mean, it's just the coolest thing. We are so spoiled. You said if Yanis like goes off every night,

you know, down the stretch goes crazy. He does go crazy every night. Like you're, like, you're talking. It's just the bar is so high. Yeah, we're used to. The bar is so high, and we are so lucky as NBA fans. We really are. I was thinking about this the other night.

We are so lucky to have the great talents that we do. If anybody knows a basketball fan that's like, oh, I don't watch basketball anymore. It's not fun. I'm tired of the league. You should convince that person to consider watching a Bucks game or a Nuggets game. or a Sixers game and just tune in a Grizzlies game. I mean like whatever the team might be

with a young player or these MVP favorites just encourage them to tune in. Watch the cats with Evan Mobley. You know? Like watch a Trey Young game. There are just so many great talents on every single team

and every single night we are getting these wow performances. How did he do that moments? Like this guy's insane. This guy can give me hope and give my team a championship someday. Like there's so many players that inspire hope, so many players that are just do amazing things on a night-to-night basis. Like, it wasn't like this.

I don't remember it being like this for me in the early 2000s. When I was a kid, a teenager, watching NBA games, staying up night, watching West Coast games. Of course, you know, I'd watch Kobe at night growing up on the East Coast. I remember watching like some when the Kings were good. I remember watching Kings games late at night, those 10 p.m. games. But I don't remember historic performances on a night-to-night basis. Do you recall a time like this? No, I don't know.

You got to remember when I was a kid, it wasn't like Jordan was everything to everybody. And if you had cable, which we did in my house, he was on WGN a lot. You know, it's why there's a lot of Cubs fans around the country too because that was kind of team. If you had TBS, you got Braves games. If you had WGN, you got Cubs games. And so no matter what region you were. in you were seeing you were seeing that team

but there wasn't nearly the national television coverage there was no league pass there's none of that stuff I mean you saw the all-star game you saw all-star weekend you saw big games and then you saw the playoffs now it wasn't there was nobody talking night to night about the NBA so part of it's it we're paying attention and like part of it is that media coverage

No, I mean, when I'm, you, I look, the other night, me and my son are watching Pelicans Nuggets. After we had gotten done watching Grizzly's Rockets, we flipped on, we're like, okay, what's coming? What is staggered? Like, what can we watch the end up? And so that's the one we flipped on. So I just happened to fall in to that Yokic fourth quarter and overtime. And that happens literally every night at my house. He has an app open, like, he used a score app.

And then we'll turn on league pass and he'll tell me what's close in the fourth quarter. And we flip and we watch. And so I see the end of all manner of games. Like even games with bad teams, we just watch whatever's close. And that's just not possible. Right. And so the awareness of everything that's going on is just so much greater. And Bede's game last night, you know, he did it against the Bull.

This is a narrative that began over the weekend when I was watching a Bulls game. Doris Burke, I think, mentioned it on one of those evening games. She was like one of the things for the Bulls. And then they put up on the screen their record versus the top three seeds in either conference. At that time, at that time, I think it was 0 and 12. And I think it gets, it's still bad if you extend it to the top. six in either conference. Obviously, it's still bad if you're starting from 0 and 12. But they had only won like one or two, you know, even when you extended it a little bit further. And of course,

last night's game applied too, where they get down by Philly. And that's why with the Bulls, you got to throw them out of it right now. Now, can they, when they get Lanzo, they get Caruso, they get their full battery of guys. But they got to prove it. I mean, this is a long season. We're pretty deep into the season. And anytime they play anybody really good, they get beat. And so that's very, very difficult for me to become a playoff believer in a team

where unlike the Celtics who you have been talking about, Celtics beat good teams. They don't. And so the Bulls, I. I got to be honest, that was something I didn't know until that was mentioned. And when I saw that graphic, I was like, what the hell? Like all these DeRosen heroics

and the story that they've been and they were the number one seed for a good portion of time. Like, they don't beat anybody like really good? No, they don't. And it's been like that all season long. All year long, it's been like that. And I think one of the things that surprised me

in my article on Monday on the Ringer, I had a thing about the Bulls. And I was surprised to see all the way back since December 7th, all the way back till December 7th. So three months now, they've ranked 26th in defensive

rating. And they have the sixth ranked offensive rating over that time. But that's the 18th in differential. 18th in differential. So they've been slightly below average for three months of this point now. Like you got ball missing time, Caruso missing time.

Patrick Williams has been out the whole season. Guys have been in and out of the lineup for them. Levine's missed a little bit of time. But below average for three months, that was longer than I thought with the numbers in terms of their defensive efficiency. And it really speaks to the importance of what Caruso and Lonzo Ball were doing for that team. Earlier in the year when they were helping that propel them up to be a top 10 team. and those guys were ridiculous on the wings,

constantly in passing lanes, rotating over inside to help, making big plays around the paint, locking down guys moving their feet on the perimeter. Caruso and Ball were one of the NBA's best defensive duos in the entire NBA. Missing both of them for this extended stretch, it just seems like it's gotten progressively worse

and worse over the course of the season. De Rosen and Levine aren't necessarily making it up either in terms of effort. They carry a heavy offensive load. They're one of the reasons why they're even still winning games. That's why De Rosen was in that MVP conversation, why he still is in the top five,

not top three, but top five MVP consideration. So for the Bulls here, you're right. You got to remove them from that, you know, title contention unless they get ball and Caruso back. If they get ball and Caruso back, and then if they also get Patrick Williams back from his wrist issue, if they were to get all three of those guys back, yeah, you can put them in that conversation.

But that also raises the ramp up. issue, how much time is left on the regular season. So it's going to be a challenge for them, man. It will be. The other thing is not only if they're not beating anybody, none of those guys have ever done anything winning wise.

Like, unless you want to say those Toronto teams that DeRosen was on, that just consistently got ousted by LeBron, but I mean, they weren't regular, it wasn't like they were Eastern Finals contenders regularly. Remember

Lebronto. Yes. Lebronto. But I mean, you think about it, that was one of the things that I have been so high and praising the Bulls for is that you throw together these guys and it all has worked. Vucevic, DeRosen, Levin, they're all on losing teams. Lanzo, you know, all of them. And yet it all has like, they've all sacrificed for the greater good. And when they get healthy, they are infinitely more formidable than they are now. But you still got to beat somebody. You know? Like, I mean, it's hard for me to back you when the level of opponent is high.

They don't perform. And so, I don't know. On the other side, I know you've been waiting with baited breath. Jason Tatum at 54 over the weekend. Do I need to ask you or are you just going to say it, Chris? Oh, are the Celtics NBA finals contenders? Yeah. Are you there yet?

No. Oh, come on. This is a bit, right? What do you mean, come on? It's not a bit. All right, here, this is the best way for me to explain this to you. Okay. And I thought I explained it decently well about Dallas last week, okay, where I said,

the thing with Dallas is, could I see a scenario where they are beating, especially with Phoenix and we don't know on. Chris Paul. The second seed is Memphis. They haven't won anything. Utah's looking mega dicey. The Warriors have been an average basketball team for a long time now. To me, that's a lot more wide open. So let me just flip side. And I tell you, Kevin, if I see three teams that I don't think you can beat, it's hard for three. So it's not like, oh, if they avoided this team, they could get there. I don't think they could beat Miami in a series. I don't think they could beat Miami in a series. I don't think they could beat Philly in a series, and I don't think they could beat Milwaukee in a series.

And even Brooklyn would be certainly a toss-up, right, if they have Simmons. Because they didn't have Simmons, and that was a very close game. So if there's three teams, I don't think you could get past, I don't know how, I don't know where I'm supposed to be on this. And I do think that they are a team. I do think that their depth is going to be a little bit of a problem. problem when when you get to the playoffs

you're only preparing for one team and that's a lot to put on Tatum to have to carry you through a series and he may just have exploded into the level of superstar that he just can and it doesn't matter how he

gets defended. I think he has I think he has. With him that's what we're seeing. Okay, so with him and Jalen, you pencil them in for whatever number. 75? I mean, that would be freaky. That would be freaky. I mean, you're still getting 30 elsewhere. I mean, but you're not getting 75. So that's, that's extreme. But let's just say you

pens a limit for 60. Let's just say they, between the two of them, they average 60 points. You've got to get 50 more points probably. You probably got to get 50 more. And outside of those two, I mean, if life is really hard, I just think he would have to go so big because these other teams have a lot of guys that could go big for them. They're not the favorite. You're right.

They're not the favorite. That kind of goes without saying. They're not the favorite. Like, the Celtics still have a lot to prove, just like the Grizzlies aren't the favorite. Like John Morant and Desmond Bain and all those guys have a lot to prove. You haven't heard me talking about them being, Of course not.

Of course not. I have recoil at people picking them. The thing is, though, is that the Celtics have been through it a bunch of times already. There's a huge difference between Boston and Memphis in terms of being a young team. Boston is battle tested. They have taken their lumps. They have failed in the postseason before multiple times. They've been to a game seven in the Eastern Conference finals against LeBron James.

And Tatum dunked on them as a rookie. The Celtics have been. And that feels like forever ago. That was a different lifetime ago. Those rosters were so much better, though, Kevin. Because those guys were on rookie deals. I mean, that's what happens in the NBA. Those rosters were way better.

Well, I mean, I don't want to repeat our same conversation from the last couple weeks with the Celtics. So we'll agree to disagree still. You don't think those rosters were better? Way better. No, I'm talking about their finals chances right now. I can't even think of the roster in my head right now. To be honest, to be like, I just think they're totally different teams. Like, they're not even comparable.

The league is different. The Eastern Conference, you know, competitors are different. Yes, the roster might have been better or the East is better right now, too. It's just a different, different circumstances. And I think you're underrating, though, what Boston is today. As we've talked about, I don't want to repeat it. I don't know how I'm underrating somebody when I say. Because they have the number one defense in basketball.

This team is unbelievable on defense. Nobody can score against them. The way they keep Robert Williams near the rim is unbelievable. Marcus Smart is playing his best basketball because their defense is by far number one. It's ludicrous. There are no weak links on their defense. I thought they just tell me which of the three they could beat. Just say it.

If you can't say that, then it's not ridiculous for me to say they can't win. They can beat any of them. They can beat them. Would I pick them in a series and full strength? No, I would not. But can they beat them? Yes, they can beat them. So how am I underrating them when you say you wouldn't pick them against three different team?

How can I underrate that? I'm just talking about, I'm not talking about the end result of a series. I'm talking about the way we talk about these teams. You know, like you're saying, the 08, the 18 Celtics are better than the, than the 2022 cell. big. So I got, I'm just, we're talking about different things. Look, because you have turned it into an NBA finals thing. I asked you originally, East Finals, could I see them in the East finals? Yes. So now am I underrating them? You keep asking me, could I see them in the NBA finals? And if there's three teams, I don't think they can beat, I can't get there. You know,

with Dallas, there's like one team I think they can't beat. With Denver, there's like one team. think they can't be. I feel your perspective shifting, though, Chris, because a couple of weeks ago, it's, no, there's no shot. Now it's that there's at least a shot. That's all. I mean, I just said sleeper, you know, can they make the finals? That's all.

I'm not saying they will. I'm not saying I'd pick them, not saying that at all. All I'm saying is this team is legit. I've been saying that for a while, and I'm still saying it right now. Like, this team is legit. That's it. That's all. on the other side that aforementioned Dallas team.

I didn't know what the hell was going on in that game last night with Luca and Gober. And I'm a Luca fan for sure. But and I don't like Gobert. As you know, like I don't tiptoe around it. I'm not a fan. And I do like Luca a lot. You don't like great defense. that's why.

You don't like great defense. Well, I like it in the playoffs. Not when the Clippers average 128 points per 100 possessions against us. Well, whose fault is that? Rudy Gobert or Joe Engels and Jordan Cox? I don't know. All I know is you go small and... Whose fault is that?

Well, I mean, you'd think you'd go for 50 and 20 if somebody's going to play a miniature person against you, but I guess that can't happen. Yeah, it's... It's definitely Gobert's fault, but Terrence man goes off for 400 points shooting wide open corner. It wasn't his fault that Jamal Murray average 50 points a game either, right? Mm-hmm. All you got to do is spread him out. He's useless. But I don't like the point is I don't like Gobert.

I like Luca. We know that. And yet, look, I'm going to shock you here. I don't know what the hell Luca's problem was last night. He's flopping around. He was acting pissy all night towards him. him. I got me out. I'm telling you, I like one guy. I don't like the other guy. I thought Luca was so like out of line, throwing the ball at him, flopping on the one and then acting like he

should get kicked out of the game for it. Like, what the hell was up with him? He was being a little B about everything. It was crazy. I'm watching it. And I'm like, I can't defend this. Like, I'm on Gobert's side on this. What the hell's wrong with you? He's like, do you see the one where he like flew? And he like laughed about it after the game. And he was like, yeah, it wasn't as bad as I thought. Me and the bench were laughing at it after we saw it on the video replay. Like he got up furious like he had been thrown to the ground.

And then like did the the thumbs out sign like that Gobert was going to get thrown out of the game. At one point, he like got Gobert switched on him. Gobert did a good job defensively. and then he got the ball back and he like went over to go yell at the ref while he threw the ball at Gobert. And I'm like, what is wrong with this dude? Look, I don't like Gobert either. But he was like super overreacting to everything last night. I don't know if it's like that clip that went around about Gobert switching on to him a couple weeks ago and really making his life hell on a couple of possessions.

It's not like Luke had a down game. He was amazing once again. But I don't know what was going on there I didn't know they didn't like each other It's obvious like Luca hates that dude's guts For some reason Yeah, they're supposed to watch the Clippers Jazz series Just like you

Maybe that's what it was, I don't know He was like, I thought this was easy Terrence man did this shit We're gonna get Lucas take on the Celtic defense too He might get mad at them too Yeah, he might but I mean I think with Luca I mean that's too bad all that those shenanigans happened last night.

You don't want to see that. And with Luca, now he has 13 technicals on the season. A handful of more of those, he'll have to get suspended for a game and miss a game. But for Dallas at this point, this new look roster, Luca scoring 35 again. He's been hovering around 35 points per game the last three, four weeks or so. Absolutely ludicrous efficiency in total control of the game, playing so much better defense than he did earlier in the season. Spencer Dinwiddie. Unbelievable.

You wrote about this, too, this week. Doesn't he look like the Spencer Dinwiddie of old? What happened? How does he go from looking like a total shell of his former self for, you know, 25, 30 games of the Wizards? He got off to a good start. When the Wizards were good earlier in the year, Dinwiddie was good. Then he fell off and the Wizards fell off.

But he looks like the Spencer Dinwiddie that averaged 20 plus points with the Nets a couple years ago right now. Even better, though, buying with all the space. It's been a common theme that we've talked about. So much of your success is opportunity and fit, and he just fits with what they're doing. He just does. Timing too,

because it takes time to come back and recover from a torn ACL, which is the whole conversation with Jamal Murray. Murray comes back, what can you expect from him? Then when he comes back, he's struggling midway through the year, playing, you know, on a crappy team defense. playing crappy individual defense,

not excelling on offense with their roster construct in Washington, comes here. Maybe had he stayed in Washington, things would have been a little better the rest of the season. Maybe he wouldn't have been as great as he is right now in Dallas, but it's situation, opportunity,

role, and timing, too. And Dallas got him at the right time, and we'll see about Bertons, too. I've been told with Bertons that there's nothing physically wrong with him in terms of form, in terms of, like, health. Like, I don't think this is something that needs dramatic change.

He's just got to shoot through it and get through his down-year shooting the ball. It's, I mean, he'll still, he'll have a target on his back in the playoffs. He will. He'll be the, with an unbelievable defense, every coach worth their salt is going to run every single play at him until they pull them out of the game. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I mean, if it reaches that point, it's not like he's, you know, an abhorrent defensive player. Yes, he is.

He's abhorrent. In fact, that's a perfect word. He is an abhorrent defensive player. He is. It is a good word. I'm not sure it applies to him, but it's exactly what he is. He's an abhorrent defensive player. I can figure of some other players that it does.

But with Bertons, like, he's not like a stopper by any means. And with Dallas, though, I mean, it seems like they got. these guys at the right time. And the pieces are fitting. Dwight Powell has also gotten progressively better over the course of the season. You got the shooters, Finney Smith, Bullock, Cleba, Burton. How about Finney Smith's game winner? Oh, yeah. Ran the play for him with the corner three the other night. Yep. He's been really good and he got rewarded with a really nice contract for sure around the trade deadline. You know, we were talking about Dinwiddie coming back from injury and we kind of bypassed this with that Yokic conversation earlier.

You know, his big game last night was against the Warriors who have just been downright mediocre for a long time now. And the Clay thing just has not given them the joke that we would have expected. I think we probably expected too much after sitting out for over two years. We also expect the Dremonts. He's played 19 games in their 10 and 9. you know, and I mean, he's been pretty good, but not like devastating clay. And you do see the, you know, when we talked about this as soon as Draymond went out in January,

like when you're the leading assist guy on a team, when you're, you know, you're running the offense through him. There's so many times where you run a guy out at Curry, he throws it to the free throw line to Draymond and kind of everything starts moving from there. And I do think that Draymond could have not only a profound effect on Curry, but also Clay, in that matter. But it has not been the jolt, I think, that we might have expected. And look, the Clay Wiggins fit is a weird, this is why I thought he was going to get traded. You know, I didn't expect Clay to get hurt, Wiggins to be essential. that he would never be traded.

But like, having Clay and Wiggins to me is not a great fit, especially when Clay has been downgraded defensively. He's not the guy he was, at least right now. He's not the guy. He was. And I know people want to act like Wiggins is, you know, Gary Payton reincarnate, but he's not. and he's been like a, you know, whatever,

replacement level, 15 points. It's funny you say that when Gary Peyton's son is on the team. Who actually is a very good defender. Yeah, he's great. He is. He is actually a very good defender. Maybe I should change it to Bruce Bowen or something like that and somebody else that was respected on the wings.

But yeah, it's been a rough go for the Warriors. and who knows on the Draymond stuff. And I guess we'll just wait and see because so much of what we think they're capable of is just 100% dependent upon that. You know, it's like they can go from mediocre to great simply by getting him back in. And I do think this is the time

where everybody realizes just how awesome he is and how much he means to them. We're going to find out, can Draymond solve all of this? Can he help elevate Clay Thompson getting him easier shots? Right now you're seeing Clay Thompson do a lot off the dribble, self-creation, pull up from mid-range, forcing some shots that are frustrating Warriors fans. Does Draymond Green solve that and help Clay get back to 40 plus percent from three, running more dribble handoffs, off screen actions, alleviating the pressure off of Steph Curry to have

to create and handle everything that he's doing. Does he help their defense, which is struggling at the moment compared to what you expect from what they can do? Does he fix it? We'll find out. He does. Because it's just having one other guy. You know, sometimes we talked about this with Gordon Hayward going out and how that would affect Charlotte. It's just one other guy that like can play make for other guys. You know, who sets other people up? And when you take that guy out of the lineup, now that's just everything.

Curry has to, he has to do everything for himself and everything for everybody else. Because nobody else is setting up each other. They're all guys that you set up, not the other way around. And so you need that other playmaker, that other guy that gets other people good shots.

And that's kind of, of what, hey, we're brought to that Hornets team and they lost two years in a row because it's a lot on Lonzo. Lonzo can't be the only one setting up everybody else. And so I do think he solves, again, they get Draymond back. They'll be amazing. I really think it's that big of a difference. I think they go from mediocre to amazing based upon his, they can't replace him.

And let me just say this on the Wiseman stuff because everybody's, you know, it's all so weird, all the Wiseman reporting. I told everybody months ago this exactly like the Jaron Jackson thing. And it was not paid attention to nationwide, but it was always weird. It was always weird. He had, like, tore his meniscus, like in the bubble. And then he was just out until, like, 15 games left in the season or something. something last year. It was way longer than you would have expected. And they went in there and they cleaned up his knee again. That was reported, you know, after they had already done surgery on it.

You know, the repair, when you tear a meniscus, you can either get that thing just removed, or if you're a young player and a big player like Jackson was, like Wiseman was, you try to repair it. and that is a much longer recovery. And it's not something that is easy to put a timeline on. And you just want to be so damn careful with it. Because you've already missed so much time and you've already rehabbed and you want that thing to be strong. Now, the good news is, knock on wood,

Sharon Jackson has been injury pain free, you know. But they took a long, long time. And I do think you're seeing these teams take a long time, especially with the young big players. I thought about this the other night when I saw that Orlando team. Where the hell is Jonathan Isaac? I haven't heard his name in nine months. At church.

Yeah, okay. He's not playing basketball. I mean, it's like early morning right now. He might actually be at church. He might actually be there. He's not at practice, unfortunately, because of all the injuries that he's had. And boy, like, I haven't thought about Jonathan Isaac and admit it. It was crazy.

neither. I haven't thought about him in a minute. I'm like, whatever happened to him? Didn't they give him a big contract? Yeah, we didn't see him all of last season, all of the season we haven't seen him. I mean. What if he comes back with like a huge fro and a huge beard and he's 260 pounds of chiseled muscle? He's a stoner. Or he's a stoner?

He's good. I was giving him the back. Yeah, one of the two. But I don't know. Like it's like Jonathan Isaac, another one of those guys. Big 6-11, 7-footer, rangey, versatile defender. Perfect for today's NBA, right? Like perfect for the MVP candidate, you know, like we're talking about,

like having him be able to be switchable and depending on bigger guys, smaller guys. The magic could use a guy like that this season. Everybody's being mega careful with their big, long, athletic, injured players. We mentioned a little bit earlier. the Westbrook thing in passing. The Spurs bagged the Lakers. But the story became Russell Westbrook and his postgame comments. Yeah.

As you mentioned, his wife had gone on Twitter.com and expressed her level of discontent about being called Westbrook in the names and whatever else. And I was sensitive to the kid part because I don't like the idea of, you know, the kids getting teased or whatever else, right? I'm sensitive to that part about it. And I know it's hard on family members.

That being said, this is the NBA. He gets paid $40, $50 million a year. Anytime you are in the public eye, you are going to be criticized. And there's going to be people that don't like you. I hate to tell you this, but like while it's not out in a public forum, my son's Googled my name before and asked me why somebody hates me. And I'm like, I don't know. It doesn't matter.

And what I've said to him is exactly what I would tell Russell Westbrook as a parent. Because you have these discussions, which is you have to decide what whose opinion you value. You have to decide who's opinion you value. And you cannot allow these people. to steal your joy. And you have to be able to have a thick skin and ignore this stuff. Instead, I thought he went about it the whole wrong way. He has been combative his entire career.

And now he's getting it back. The criticisms that are levied against him are fair. By and large, if you don't want people to call you West Brick, stop bricking shots. Exactly. I mean, stop shooting. It's just stop shooting. The other thing is, it's not like they're calling you West Dick. You know what I mean?

To me, West Brick is funny anyway. Yeah, I agree. And you can just laugh it off. And instead of taking it so seriously and making it like, They're defaming me. They're, you know, a family name is something I'm very proud of. And this and that. It's like, yo, bro, like, go out, drop 40 and then say, oh, I thought I was Westbrook.

You know what I mean? Like, you take it in and have that to be fueling the fire. But now, and you just made it 100,000 times worse. I mean, I've talked, we've talked about this very topic many times. And I've said online criticism. you mean. Yeah, I do understand these guys have feelings. And with young people, it's very difficult.

But this is a veteran player who now has children. And, okay, there's some of that stuff, like death threats, stuff, all that. That stuff is so far beyond the pale. It's so unacceptable. It's a different category. That is a different category. We can all say that's effed up. Nobody should do that.

The people that do that kind of stuff are absolute scum. But a guy in San Antonio. I saw the video. Did you see him get mad at the guy? And the guy was like, Whisk! He's like yelling at him during the game. And he's like,

don't disrespect me. Don't disrespect my name. It's like, come on. Bro, you've been in NBA arenas when people heckling you for 20 years now.

Stop taking yourself so seriously. Well, no. Stop blaming everybody else. Yeah, I know, I know, but it's a type of,

I know, but it's like, you're, you're discharging my family name. I think, come on. It's just, People just calling you Westbrook.

It's actually, it's pretty, it's pretty tame, as you said, Chris. It's a tame thing for fans to call it. I just don't think it's fair to use your kids as a shield for that. Yeah, I agree. That's where I got a little, I am sensitive to the kid thing. Yeah. Also, I am responsible for my children of what they believe and the lessons that they learn. And the same thing is, I mean, you know, when I first started here and people are

trashing me on the internet because they didn't know me and Bill has just brought me. I didn't sit there and say hey, don't say bad stuff about me on the internet or on Twitter because my son might read that and it's very hard on him. Like

you know, I explain to my son and say these people are idiots. That's why there's no photo next to their name. They're not using their real name. They can say whatever they want into the ether with no consequent. Like, I can't worry about that. No, you can't. The way that I've developed in my life,

especially in my 20s, is that I feel like I'm at the point mentally where I invest my thoughts, my energy, my effort into the things that are in my control and not the things that are out of my control. That's true for every circumstance in my life, whether it's serious life stuff, or whether it's like the little stuff on a day-to-day basis, like you're sitting in traffic and you're annoyed. So much of the way in our joy on a day-to-day basis is about our mindset and approach. And I think in this case,

like a nickname that is being called to you naturally, you know, in his control, the way he chose to handle it is like pushing back, you know, saying this is, you know, it don't do this, it is shaming my family name and all that. But I just don't,

based off all the reporting that we've seen, based off of everything we know about Russell Westbrook, there has just not been an ounce of, you know, him looking within and worrying about what's in his control in order to be a better basketball player, which in this case, in this particular case, fans won't be calling him Russell Westbrook if he just doesn't shoot. And the Lakers, by the way, Chris, would be a better team if he just didn't shoot the ball. If Russell Westbrook just attacked the basket, finished at the rim,

focused on passing, put better effort into defense, and did the things that he does well more and the things that he does worse, less, the Lakers would be a slightly better team, there'd be less panic, there'd be less frustration from Lakers fans, and we'd be talking more about, huh, what happens when Anthony Davis comes back? That would be the conversation, but it's not that. And I think when it comes to the stuff that's in control of your own life, for Russell Westbrook as a player, there's a lot that he can control that he hasn't,

that he hasn't been willing to. And also for the people that are sending death threats or anything even like deeply personal, even anything deeply personal to his family. We haven't seen that they do maybe in their Instagram DMs or whether it's on Twitter mentions, whatever. For the people who do that, like they more than anybody, I'm talking about Westbrook need to look within and worry about what's in his control. Those people more than anybody need to look within and focus on what's in their control

and become a better person and improve on a day-to-day basis. And certainly I have been on, I've been a Westbrook. defender for goodness sakes but with this one we were we were in game of zones together Chris you and you talking about Westbrook you've always been on team Westbrook always it's just a level of

it's just no self-awareness Kevin if I if I called you Kevin O'Goofy and then you went on Twitter and you said hey don't call me Kevin O'Goofy everybody I know Chris did it but don't do that

it be ridiculous my My father's name and my grandfather, and that's a name that's very important to us, and it means a lot. And don't call me Kevin O'Goofy anymore. Do you know everybody in the free world would start, Cal, do you, Kelly? Of course, you? Like, I mean, you, bro, what planet are you on that you think you could just say, like, hey, this bothers me, don't do it anymore.

I'm going to start calling people to task or whatever. It's like, bro, you just invited everybody. It's all anybody's going to call you anymore. What are you nuts? Like, you can't let everybody know what gets under your skin. No kidding. Like, what? I know.

I just don't. If I came on here and told everybody like, hey, here's something that gets under my skin, I know what's coming. How can you not be that self-aware? I don't know. No self-awareness to know that's what's going to have. Like, are you new to the world? Like, this isn't, like, you don't.

You don't get to just call the shots. Are you new to the world? Yeah. I don't know, man. Are you new to the world? I'm down bad on this one because maybe he can just play the, he's going to have to play the game with earplugs. Shit, it doesn't matter.

It's not like he listens to his teammates anyway. I'm open, I'm open. What does it matter? You can wear his ear plugs. Dude, like, also nobody's exempt from criticism. I think they made it out to be like, this is some skit bailist. thing, him calling him Westbrook on TV, but nobody's exempt from criticism. I'm not exempt from criticism. You've been criticized as a podcaster. I've been criticized as a podcaster, as a writer

for things that I've said, it's like, so what? And also, by the way, sometimes there's certain criticisms that there's truth rooted in. And sometimes it's also important not to shut it all out and take it in, and you've got to filter that criticism. You've got to know, you're going to know yourself and understand your own limitations as a human being and how you can get better as a person. When it comes to worrying about what's in your control, to me, like, there's so much stuff online. Like, I see the stuff that makes people angry online, and I'm like, just relax. You know, like, don't worry about it. Mute them, delete them.

Yeah, just like relax sometimes and worry about the stuff that when you wake up in the morning, what's in my control today to make this the best, most happiest, most exciting, most fun, most productive, most fulfilling day that I can possibly have? If you focus your energy and thoughts and worries into those things, rather than the things that are completely out of your control, you will be a happier person. And I think you'll be a company. Like Dunderfan 6969 calling you Westbridge.

Yeah. Like who gets a great? I mean, come on. And like it's also like this is the same guy that after Kevin Durant signs of the Warriors has cupcakes at his 4th of July party playing into the Kevin Durant cupcake nickname. What a fucking hypocrite. He's just, he's been difficult with the media. He's been difficult with teammates.

He's been difficult with all manner of people. And now things are going bad for him. And I, I wasn't down with it. I wasn't down with it. That's for sure. Let's end on that. This was probably like top 10 show ever that we've done. What'd you say?

It's probably top 10. Top 10. It's probably top 10. I can't even remember. last weeks. I hope Thunder fans. I hope Thunder fans 6969 liked it. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always, and we will talk to you

on Friday. Chris, I mean this sincerely. I can't believe you cut off the show before we got to Kings losing. They're falling out of it right now. We didn't get to the Pistons again with Cade Cunningham. Like, you're laughing right now. And we got tweeted last night from a Pistons fan. thought we were like intentionally poking fun at the Kings last week before we ran out of time.

But we legitimately have run out of time again this Tuesday morning as we record. We legitimately have. And once again, I apologize to Pistons fans. I promise on the void on Wednesday we'll talk about the Pistons, even just for a couple minutes. And I just a couple minutes. And I promise on Friday, Chris, we're going to have the Pistons in like the first couple things we discuss. No matter what, we're talking about the Pistons. Okay, Chris?

We're out of time, though. You got to run. You got your local show. And I got to do the board. Sorry, everybody.