The Mismatch - The Knicks Return to the NBA Finals, and How to Blow Up the Cavs With KOC

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

Verno and Jacoby return to react to the Knicks returning to the NBA Finals after sweeping the Cavs in the Eastern conference finals and preview Game 5 of Spurs-Thunder. Then they are joined by Yahoo Sports’ Kevin O’Connor to discuss the issues with the Cavs’ roster, the Knicks’ chances in the NBA championship, and the new NBA lottery rules. Welcome to The Mismatch! (00:00) Knicks destroy Cavs 130-93, punch ticket to NBA Finals (2:22) Knicks run out opponents with 11 straight playoff wins (12:29) Gotham stands tall: first NBA Finals since 1999 (19:10) Cleveland lame: Knicks’ average margin of victory +18.5 ppg (26:48) Cavs future retool: Mitchell + Mobley close to contending (30:38) Thunder-Spurs preview: OKC’s lack of offense, series tied 2-2 (38:59) Kevin O’Connor from Yahoo Sports joins the show (42:51) Cavs autopsy report: KOC breaks down the future of the Cavs (49:45) Knicks favorites to win it all? (53:19) KOC headline: Wemby turns SGA into DeMar DeRozan (01:01:30) KOC the FIXER: how the NBA is f**king over the Grizzlies Leave us a message on our Mismatch voicemail line! [phone] Protect your summer today at WeatherTech.com  Hosts: Chris Vernon and David Jacoby Guest: Kevin O’Connor Producers: Stefan Anderson and Jeff Shearin Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Miss Match, I'm Chris Varnan. He does every week from the Ringer.com is Dave Jacoby. Jocobie. I have nothing to say. I'm just going to lay it. I don't even know what to say. I'm floored. I'm absolutely floored.

I'm absolutely floored. I have to be honest, I doubted this team so many times over the course of this year. Over the course of this year, you check him with me in November. You check him with me in January. You check him with me like going into the Cavs series. I had concerns.

And for them to, to be like this, to hit on all cylinders, to have everyone wearing a Nick uniform being the perfect version of that they can be for each other in the playoffs and win 11 straight. I just, I'm floored. They're going to win the finals. They're going to win the finals. An absolute buzz saw. We're the New York Knicks in another closeout game.

We just watched them beat the Cleveland Cavaliers by 37 points as we're recording this right after the game ends on Monday night. A quick update. Our old buddy Kevin O'Connor is going to join us a little bit later. We'll give his thoughts on the Eastern and Western Conference Finals and also a big story he broke about the future of the NBA draft and the draft lottery. This episode of The Mismatch is presented to you by WeatherTech.

Everyone knows winter is the MVP in making a mess. You don't need weather tech floor liners in the summer. Unless you hit the beach or go camping, then you'd want a cargo liner. Or a road trip goes sideways. Catchup goes rogue. Ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear, as the mud you're inevitably going to step in the summer, you don't need weather tech.

unless you plan on doing summer. So visit weathertech.com today. But back to the Knicks and that 11-game win streak that you mentioned. I went and marked it down. It was by a total of 261 points, Jacoby, in the last 11 games, the final total of victory, margin of victory is 261.

that is 23.7 points per game when it's averaged out. And like, look, obviously some of them, you've got a couple 50s in there. You got a 50 and a 37. Teams are tapping out. A couple teams just tapping out. Okay. But if we just go one by one, this is how we got to the 261. Against the Hawks, one by 16, one by 29, one by 51.

Well, first of all, before that, won and then lost by one, lost by one. that's part of the story as well. Yeah, yeah, I'm just talking about the 11 game winch. No, I know, I know. Sixers by 39 by 6, by 14, by 30. That six was the only, I'm not going to say the only, because game one was very competitive against the Cavs. But that six was a competitive game.

Yes. And then the Cavs by 11. In overtime, which is just misleading because it was tied at the end of regulation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was still the margin by 11, by 13. by 13 by 16 by 37. I mean, the three close out games have been by 51, 30, and 37. When you are theoretically playing a team whose back is against a wall,

wants to keep their season going. Here is your grand slam effort. And they have pasted all of these teeth. They made them give up. Seven months ago, do you remember JJ Reddick before a close-out game against the rocket said, one of the hardest things to do is eliminate a team in a series because they are like a, I forget what he said, like a cornered animal. It's like they're fighting for survival.

Right. The Knicks have had no trouble closing out of these teams. No, okay, that animal against the Knicks has played dead. That's what's awesome. Yeah, they've got a shotgun. Because they have just, they have, well, honestly, they've come out. In all three of those close out games, they've come out and they've ripped their heart out of their chest in the first half of those games to where it's like, what's the point? Like these teams, they have just not only have they, not only have they blown these teams out, they've blown them out early.

And then the rest is just like Coast City, you know, like honestly, like this game, when this game was over. in the second quarter. So. There's a little run. There's a little run by the calves. You never thought the calves were coming back, ever. If you look at my notes, there's so meticulous in the first quarter, and there's like a little bit less in the second quarter.

And by the third quarter, I'm like, let's get some notes on the Thunder Spurs series, because this is over. Tyler Colette came in and got buckets in garbage time. Like, every Nick is being the best version of themselves. It's like they all went to a wellness retreat and like got hit, and are the best version of themselves right before the playoffs. My TV is still on it. Brunson is getting awards and is walking around. And like there's the, he's got the, he's got the Lerbert Award?

Yeah, he got it. And look, he and the rest of those nicks, like what the solidify? Why didn't Shamit get it? I mean, because he got greatest shooter of all time award. He should. Steph should give it out, the Steph Curry won. He actually got best $3 million player. in Eastern Conference Finals history.

If AJ Mitchell never got hurt, he might be in competition for the Western Conference Finals. Oh, that's true. That's true. Except, you know, Samet's got the crown, though. I mean, when Mike Breen in the third quarter was like, Shamit again, he's now 12 for 13 from three in the Eastern Conference finals. I was like, what? What?

And then he hits another one. And you're just like, wait, is that 13? from 14. So in the group chats, the group chats are going crazy. And it was like, do we call him sham god? You can't call him sham god, right? You can't, you can't. There already is it.

So now he is sham wow, we've decided. He's sham wow. Sham wow. Yeah. Not bad. Look, these guys, here's the thing, it solidifies. Solidifies a bunch of different things. Number one, these guys will be legends forever in New York City.

Like this team now goes down because the Knicks have been to five, finals, three of which were in the 70s, and then you have 94 and 99. And 94 and 99 are sitting on the front row at these games when they are playing, right? Like those guys are legends forever amongst New York fans. And so this one solidifies them. Not only are they not some kind of disappointment or you wonder what could have been. In fact, they are, like you said, the absolute best version of themselves. people are now talking like, have the Knicks ever looked this good ever in life?

Like, and that's a, there's certainly throughout their run in the Eastern Conference playoffs, there is no debate. No team has looked like this. They're beating people by 25 points a game. It's, what are we talking about? They've been amazing. There's two things I want to discuss in terms of the Knicks heading into the finals. And I'm never going to regret saying this microphone is how I feel right now.

The buzzer just sounded on the game. Heat and health. I'll start with heat. Every player is hot. There is not one player that is not playing at their best or helping everybody else elevate. Like think about towns, bridges. You see, OJNobi had like three dunks in the first quarter,

like the hit-aheads. And Mitch Robbins is coming in and doing what he needs to do. Deuce McBride, you hear the deuce on the road in Cleveland. This isn't Philly. This is a flight. And like every single player is hot right now. It's like a, it's like when you watch the Stanley Cup playoffs and one team is not that good,

but they have a goalie that you just can't get past and he carries them to the finish line. That's every single Knickerbocker right now. Beyond that, it's the help. Look at what's happening in the Western Conference. And do you know why that's happening? Because they're not sweeping every series. Like, yeah, it took six to get rid of the Hawks.

But I'm telling you, man. You know the other thing? It makes a difference to limit the amount of games you play before the finals. They're going to have played 14 games before the finals. And I imagine, and the, you know, the thunder swept their first two. So they might come in with 14, but that six is in the back end up the front end. Here's the first. Here's the other thing, Jacoby, about regarding the health thing.

This has been a stroke of genius bringing in Mike Brown. He has been outside. standing and he trained this team to be able to use its depth throughout the regular season. Now, in fairness to Tibbs, it had more depth. No, it has more depth. It has more depth. But you get to this point, these guys have not been run into the ground completely. And also, that depth is showing up and being able to succeed.

And look, you give the, the coach gets credit for making players the best version of themselves, right? That is the coach's job. And when you are putting these guys in the positions over and over and over to have success, and you have seen different types of iterations, right? This was not, this series was not Playmaker Towns. That was the last series. No, or Brunson Takeover. outside of game one.

Game one was Brunson Takeover. Right. And this was just everybody at peak of powers being able to play together as a five-man unit. And then these guys coming off the bench just playing out of their mind. Alvarado gets a breakout layup, then gets a steal. He pulls up a three because he's confident because his teammates love him. Because New York loves him.

He misses the three. But what happens? Connolly the Towns put back done. It's just like the confidence is contagious. And this team is hitting on all cylinders. And I honestly say this right now, I feel like this team is going to win the finals. I feel like this team is going to win the finals. I really, I've not felt like that until tonight.

Well, certainly they are the team that like over the course of NBA history, it has been true that veteran laden teams and older teams are typically the ones that win. Same starting five for two years. Yes, it's usually not young teams that win. in the NBA finals. And so I think that banking against these nicks, especially after what we've seen, not a few games,

11 games in a row? 11 games raises eyebrows in the regular season when everyone's tanking. That raises eyebrows. Like that's worth, they'll make the mismatch rundown if you win 11 in a row during the regular season. And you're doing the playoffs with everything in the line,

with all the adjustments, with the coaching and everything. And I do want to say that I didn't love Tibbs getting fired. I was like, who are going to replace him with? How are things going to change? They've had success under Tibbs, and I will say that I was wrong. I think that what Mike Brown has done and the adjustments he has made

and the buttons he has pushed during this run. He's been great. Has been brilliant. It's been brilliant. He's been great and they've been great. And I wonder what you're like, you've talked about this place where you record the mismatch. I don't think you got to worry outside.

where you are. But I'll tell you this. It's just a guy that lives in Memphis, Tennessee that has a friend that he does a podcast with, that lives in New York City as a big Knicks fan and sends him a bunch of Nick stuff. You know, look, I can't click on all this stuff that you send me and not have it infect my algorithm.

And so now I just get into scrolling and I'm like, yo, is New York City about to be Gotham? That's what all these, every other thing is. New York City's about to be got them. They're going to burn the city down. This is going to be chaos. I got a video of 700 million cops all like a battalion that's ready for this. And the chief didn't even have a megaphone.

He had like a speaker system. Like he was like Mariah Carey at a residency in Vegas because that's how many cops were there. But let me tell you, like think about like Jurassic Park Watch parties that you've seen or like what they call it, beer park or deer park. Milwaukee that sort of like spills outside of the arena because we have so many people that want to get inside. We throw a watch party. We're real proud of that.

We show it on camera. They shut it down tonight. There's this. They shut down the watch party. They shut down the watch party at like 33rd and seventh where like you know, where the garden is where I've phacetime you from before after a big win. Oh yeah. Like they shut the whole thing down.

They sent all those cops there. I'm not there. I was going to pop by to see what's happening. There's a summer stage in Central Park, which is a little harder to get to and a little like more like You know, it's the park. It's like calm and chill, you know. I'm going to go to one of those during the finals. But this, I'll say this, though, it's like, Verno, I'm going to tell you something you don't want to hear.

From what I saw tonight, New York City was pretty chill. It's a long weekend. A lot of people live the city like myself. You drive back. You have a barbecue today. A lot of people watch this Knicks game at home. It's not Friday night. You know what I mean?

It's not Thursday night. It was a Monday night. everyone's been a long weekend and I've been around and you know what I did because I'm a journalist I left at halftime I went to the local bar

and had a shot in a beer because I'm a journalist Yeah not that many people there at all Not that many people there at all Well Like nobody there You know you know where I did see

There was that it was slammed Did you see this video That was going around They hosted a watch party In Radio City Music Hall But you could control that You can control that Yeah but it was only 10 bucks

to get in there and it was lit. It looked fun as hell. I was like, oh, that would be the spot. That would be the spot. It's a smaller venue. Like, you see a lot of these cities will host watch parties inside their arena.

Yeah. Teams on the road. They're not doing that here. No way. But our guy, Mom Donnie said, if they win the chip, it's, we're turning it all off.

Chaos. It's basically the purge. He said it's the purge if we win the chip. We win the finals is the purge. Not a quote, not a direct quote. I'm sorry, I'm a journalist. Not direct quote, but there was something to that effect. He might have been excited.

He was doing an interview with it. I believe it was a side talk. Might have gotten excited. But I hate to report that the vibes in the city were kind of low because, man, a lot of people leave the town during Memorial Day weekend and drive back with the family, just like myself, unpack all the suitcases, get all the kids in their pajamas and the next game's on. It's like, it's not exactly like Friday night.

where it's three Jeep at the bar. I went to two bars, one before and one after, is a journalist, one before and one a half time. Yeah. As a journalist, and they were both kind of empty. Got a little lucky that it was Monday night, Memorial Day night, right? Lucky or unlucky? No, I'm saying they got lucky in terms of the amount of chaos that there would be.

People that be outside, yeah. Yeah, right. Like, because people were barbecuing and it pools all weekend. And they're at home on their couch watching the Knicks celebrating and like texting. That was the vibe I got. But I hate to report this. I would love to say it's chaos.

If people are going crazy and blah, blah, blah. It's just not. It's just not. And I'm in the middle of Midtown, too. This is like one of the more busier areas of the city. All right. You say that, but I'll probably wake up. There'll be videos.

There'll be videos. And in fairness, a 40-something-year-old guy with a ton of kids and a wife that went to a pool all day. You wouldn't be out there anyway. So, I mean, it doesn't necessarily apply. I do like, hey man, I'm telling you, things are kind of low key. Yeah, you're low key because you're old. Game one is going to be on the road and I have an inn at one of the biggest watch parties in the city and I will be there and I'll send you the videos and I'll have a report because I'm a journalist from the road. I'm just saying it's not like I would turn on a video and you're on the top of a light post, you know, rattling it.

Don't you dare threaten me with not turning up. Don't you dare threaten me with not turning up. I'll do this when I'm 70. Do it? I love to party. Climb a lot. I love to party. All right, all right.

Here you go. Hold on. I don't not climb anything. I don't have upper body strength like that. I don't have upper body strength like that. I can barely do a pull-up. Okay. Please.

Climb a line. Climb a light. If you're not a bitch. If you're not a bitch, I am a bitch. I'm a bitch. I'm a bitch. I can do like honestly, if you put a bar in me, I can do like three pull-ups. Three.

Can't do a fourth. Okay. Don't climb. Get like seven feet up a light. post in a Larry Johnson jersey and just say, let's go Nick, after the cabs or whatever. No promises. So I don't, yeah, I'm just saying, I don't think that you're the agent of chaos that they're necessarily worried about. No, no. But I did hear some guys be like, you're going to watch, I meet you at the watch party. I was on the subway train on the way down. It was like five o'clock.

And like some guys talking to the other guys like, meet you at the watch party. I'm like, what, what? Is there a watch party tonight? I thought they shut those down. Oh, there's probably a ton of them. Yeah. So there's stuff going on. I mean, watch party. Watch parties become like the new after hours. Like watch party is the new like, oh, there's something secret going on. Yes. And there's, look, these guys are going to be kings of the city.

On the other hand, buddy, these guys from Cleveland better get the get on the first thing smoking because you don't even want to be around. I mean, you don't even want to show your face after what just happened to you. That was, look, we, we, we thought, I thought, I thought Donovan Mitchell had a good effort in the first. I thought Donovan Mitchell came out being like, I'm going to try to do this. I'm going to try to do this. We have spent the first 18 and a half minutes talking about how absolutely awesome, breathtaking and historically great New York has been. What we have not, what we have not addressed is it was a unbelievable combination of a historically great team throughout these Easter conference playoffs playing it.

team that was just an absolute bunch of lames. They were so lame in these Eastern Conference finals. They were up by a million in Game One, and it's like the series. And I don't even know why they played the last three games, because, hell, after game three, Donovan Mitchell was still talking about Game One, and their coach was like, analytically, we've actually won two out of three. and just buried himself. Can I say something in his defense, though?

Like, no, no, you cannot. No, because, like, if you listen to the whole clip from front to back, no. I know what he's trying to say, but he's been, like, ripped for it so many times. Like, I'm sure he regrets it, but I understand what he was trying to say. No. But at the same time, no, let me tear him down for a second. It's also like, I did my job.

The players aren't hitting their shots. Correct. Like, that's what it sounded like to me. It sounded like, well, as a coach, I'm getting the shots that we, want the good shots and the players are just letting me down. That I didn't like. And we also have had this entire generation post Moneyball that thinks that process matters to fans.

Nobody cares. Fans care about results. That's what we do. We talk about results. And that's fine if you want to in the locker room or you want to talk to your nerdos in the front office about process, but in the end, it doesn't matter. We don't care about your process. We care.

Don't tell me about the labor pains. Show me the baby. I want to be like, did you expect, did you expect James Hard to stay in front of Jaylon Brunson for like 12 straight possessions in game one? Did you expect Josh Hart to keep missing threes after he made three straight threes in game two? Because let's talk about expectations. Because I expected you to not say this after game three because you have kind of shit on yourself as a coach in game one and game two.

Well, because analytically, Sam Merrill would never, like you could put him in any gym in the world and make him shoot seven threes. And he's never missing all seven. It's never happening in life. But what the paper cannot. adjust to is, well, what if that guy then is spooked because he just had the half bang go halfway down and bounce out. And then he turns around the next game and Tracy Morgan's calling you a dickhead while you're trying to shoot it. And it's like, I don't care what the number says. I know that a Sam Merrill open three is a good shot. I know it is. I know that's what. That's,

what the number says. But I also know that there are circumstances that change that. And he read straight into him, as did Max Drews, as did Dean Wade and everybody else. But I did not say this before the series, before the playoffs. I think I was like, who's the fifth beetle? Like, that's always been the problem. And unfortunately, because they never found a fifth beetle, this team is going to get broken up. Like, because the previous playoff series, you can always say, yeah,

they weren't healthy. Yeah, but they weren't healthy. Yeah, but they weren't healthy. I don't know. I looked at the roster tonight. It seemed like they had everybody during this series, right? Who's hurt for the calves? Am I, am I missing somebody? They had the highest payroll in the entire NBA, you should go. But was anyone injured for the calves? I might have been missing somebody. Struis was injured during the year. Right. No. They're ready to go. He looked great against the pistons. They're ready to go. I mean, and they paid over 390 million in like when you had the luxury tax and everything that they did with this team i mean they went all in with this especially after the hardin acquisition here's something to look for verno

james hardin when he was with the sixers he got really upset with dale more he said something in china do you remember that oh yeah i'll never he had never trust darrell moore yes he had a little wink wink deal about an extension right if i was running the cabs front office are you excited about that wink-wink deal that you had with James Harden? Are you excited about that? I mean, you know there is a possibility that there's not necessarily the wink-wink deal, but there was the understanding that he's picking up that player option, and that's just the way that's going to be. And this is the pickle that they are in. Next year, Donovan Mitchell gets paid $50 million. Oh, he won't be on the team. No worry about that. He won't be there.

He won't be there. Hey, Jacoby. Evan Mobley gets paid $50 million. Mowgli, I think people forgot what Moby looked like against the Raptors. Hey. He played pretty well in these playoffs, but against the Raptors,

remember early Mowbly in these playoffs? Not hard to remember a month ago. James Hardin has a $42 million player option. He's picking that up. Jared Allen gets paid $28 million. Max Strues gets paid $16.6 million. dollars. Dennis Schrooter gets paid $15 million. This is

all next year. Oh, you know what? I'm wrong. They were missing Dennis Schroeder tonight. He had a fever. I apologize on behalf of the cast of all mixed fans. I said they were fully healthy. They were not fully healthy. They were missing Dennis Schroote.

He had a fever. Is that true? High fever. I can't play with a high fever. For more for more cowbell. That's what it is. He I can't believe I'm laughing. You're like this. I can't believe.

I mean, I don't even know how you get out of this is the point. Like, they got her. Like, who wants these guys for that money is what I'm saying? But I also say this. I do want to say this. This is more like a macro point. This was not a failure for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Losing the Easter's Conference finals is not a failed season.

Just because you didn't win the championship is not a failure. It's not. Getting humiliated is. A little bit, a little bit. The way the effort they put out tonight was a little bit. Well, because here's the deal. If you go and get smoked, you're losing overtime in seven,

it's a whole different feeling. You realize how far away you are. That's the point. It's not only that. We're not close to that. We're not close to championship caliber. You can't convince yourself. You can't convince yourself.

You can't convince yourself. Right. Yeah. Dan Gilbert's sitting there. And every time Miles McBride rises up for a three-point shot in the building that he built and owns, you hear doos from 40% of the crowd in a close-out game that has to sting. That has to sting. I think they probably will blow Kenny Ackinson out.

I don't know if he deserves it, but he's got to get blown out. Like, because again. It's too bad. Well, because you can't blame me. The players. It's too much. Like the, the, the, the amount of money, like, I know everybody's just going to say, hey, you know, just blow the whole thing up.

But, I mean, it's going to be hard, it's what I'm saying. It's hard to put this whole thing up. And so now. The market for those players that those numbers are not high. Correct. Especially after what they just did. Who did you come out feeling great about from that series amongst us? And again, if you're playing a game six in Cleveland and you lose in the Easter

Conference Finals, you can convince you. yourself that we can make a tweak here, tweak there, and become a championship caliber. But that's been the last three years. That's been the last three years. We're close. We're close, but we need to do this and this. And it's like, dude, this isn't close. You just got humiliated.

You just lost like 37 on your home floor. Now, I want to know what you think about this. Do you think this series is radically different if they win game one? No. I think it's different. It's not radically different. The Knicks are... I mean, is it a six-game series?

That's what I'll say. Would it be... Would it have been a long series that is looked at as hard-fought, but the Knicks came out on top? We don't... I'm not saying, do we think the Cavs would have won the series?

But do you think that we're talking about a six-game hard-fought series, but that it just wrecked them so badly, dropping that first game, especially in the fashion that they did, the all-time collapse, that it wrecked them so badly that these were the results of what took place.

No, I don't think that. I think the Knicks are playing the best basketball on the planet right now. I think the Knicks are on absolute fire. They're firing on all cylinders. Look at what they've done since game three against the Hawks. Something happened.

Something happened. And I think that the game won quarter one, two, and three was a function of them just having too much time off and the cabs being up to speed with playoff basketball. It took them three quarters to catch up. And then Brunton, I mean, he hit some unbelievable shots in that fourth quarter.

But like, I think, I think it's still, it's a five game series if they win game one. I think they're a better team. I think the Knicks are the best team in basketball right now. They're winning the finals. I'm sorry to say. They're winning the finals. The, I did see Darren Ravell posted,

that the lowest... I don't think I follow him anymore. Geez. The lowest get-in price for game three was $3,600 at the busser. That's not true. That's not true. That can't be true.

Who's going to be in the building? Who's going to be in the building? I'm just telling you what it was. Oh, you mean the final for the World Cup fund? Does that make sense? I'm talking about game three of the NBA finals. I've sat in the really bad seats in the garden and that is not worth

it's not worth $360. I'm telling you that's the lowest listed ticket. $3,600. I think they have to reopen the watch parties. They have one in Central Park. They have to reopen. This is bullshit. The fact that New Yorkers can't congregate

and watch Knicks games on a big screen because of what? We climb on top of signs. Like what's the raveniness that you've seen? No one's fighting. No one's shooting. No one's stabbing. Like why can't we congregate

and celebrate the Knicks. I'm going to write a letter to Mom Dani. I'll do it. I'll have Claude do it and then I'll punch it up. So you say the Knicks are the team, but the Spurs evened up their series by a 103, 82 win. Your favorite player, Victor Wenbonyama, dominated in the first half and then dominated for the course of the game. 33 points, eight rebounds, five assists, three blocks, two steals. Oklahoma City went six for 33 from three. meanwhile the spurs only made nine of 33

but the big number was this you had 25 assists for the spurs on 35 makes and I've said this a thousand times I've told you there's only one stat you got to look at if you want to tell me a team is competitive against Oklahoma City who won the NBA Cup is that stat we have to look at that is not it it is how many times did you turn it over spurs turned it over 12 times

it's an unbelievable number guess that's how many Steph Castle had in game one. Right. I mean, they if you, if you can keep your turnovers low against them, you've got a chance. And that means, see, I don't think that was it. For now, I disagree. Oh, no. You get to play a lot of half court basketball. I completely disagree. You can't. You can't disagree. What do you mean that can't disagree? You can't disagree. Because it. I disagree. What I'm stating is fact. So you're disagreeing with fact. I disagree that that was the most important factor in the game. I just think that without A.J. and J-dub.

There's just no one else that can get you a bucket besides Shea. So you build your defense to limit Shea. And then they're just like, McCain can't do it. McCain was one for 10. Can't do it. McCain was one for 10. Caruso. We talk about Oklahoma City's depth so much.

But that's real cute when like number eight, number nine are playing 10 minutes a game. But when you ask them to step up into a different role, the Isaiah Joe's, the Kendish Williams, those guys aren't ready for this type of minutes and spotlight and defensive attention. They're not. Well, Alex Caruso pulled the Luke Conard, which was have like 30 something points in a game early in the series and then have zero. I have one shot. He was minus 22. When has that ever happened ever in a game that Alex has, has Alex Caruso ever been minus 22 in a

basketball game. Some nerd go look that up for me. Yeah, look that up, please. Chris Vernon and D. Jacoby on Twitter. Maybe, maybe a, and I'm saying a Thunder game, not a Bulls game. That's not fair. Yeah. I don't think he's ever been

minus 20 to even in a Bulls game. But someone will look it up and said it to us. But man, like, I walked away from that game as being like, I thought maybe it was great. And we can talk about him in a second. It was me more about the Thunder's offense and just lack of anything. They scored 82 points. They haven't scored that low in the regular season or the playoffs.

But 82 points. Here's what I'm telling you, though. The reason the turnover thing is important because now I'm playing deadball basketball. You have to keep your turnovers low because they are not a massively dynamic half-court basketball team. These Caruso's and Kaysan Wiles that they destroy you with runout. That's how Lou Dork gets buckets. That's how Caruso flares open.

But if they're having to set up and they're having to play you half court, it looks pretty bleak because Chey Gildjus Alexander is now got to kick it to some guy. And you're saying, to your point, create something for yourself or your teammate. And you know what ends up happening? Isaiah Hardinstein's your second leading score. And that is just like implausible. Like that's ridiculous. Well, you talk about the Caruso,

between, what was like, game three, game two and game four. Jay Will between game three and game four. Jay Will, he shot two threes. One hit the backboard. One didn't hit anything. Right. And he just completely lost his confidence. And if you're him offensively, like, is he going to post up in this offense?

No. Is he going to get a put back dunk? No. Like, he basically shoots catch and shoot threes. And he missed four of those things in a row. And he was just completely nullified. Like they don't have weapons without J. Dub or A.J. Mitchell, who's already been ruled out for game five.

And I can't imagine J. Dubbs is going to play game five. So it's going to be tough for the Thunder to win, even at home. This is what we thought when we were worried about the plight of both Dylan Harper and Deerrin Fox. It's like, bro, you better have at least one of them. And that's how it feels with Oklahoma City. You better hope you get Jalen Williams back if Mitchell's going to be out. And I know he's listed as questionable, but it's still scary because he came back, look

good in game one and then by game two was hoveling off again. So I hope everyone gets injured. I hope they all get injured. Oh, stop. Stop. I hope everyone tears something. Hey.

I hope I hope this. No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't.

No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you want this to be, you, no, you want this to be great competition. You don't want this to be, oh, they beat up. Hey, look, you're playing Wemby. Hey, hey, you're playing Wemby anyway, brother. It's been 50 years.

You're playing Wemby anyway. I'm a Tanya Harding, Wemby. I'm a Tanya Harding, him. I know where they stay in New York. I'm going to be out. I'll take the fall. It's going to be like two years in jail. I'll take it.

I'll take it. Is this going to be, well, shoot, I guess I'll be hosting a show with Doc Rivers. That's fine. He's available. Kenny Atkinson. It's Atkinson and Verno. Yeah. Kenny Atkinson.

It's going to be a round table. It's just me. Kenny, I can see, what's his name, Doc Rivers, and then, well, I guess Steve Kerr's going back to coaching, so it can't be Steve Kerr. We were worried about, we were worried about him taking a ringer. No, no, I'm sure he called Bill and was like, how much? How much you got? Because I'm getting offered a lot to come back to coaching. All right. So look, there's two things that we know Kevin O'Connor is going to do, and we're going to bring him on. We'll get his thoughts on the

Eastern and Western Conference finals, but there's one thing I know about KOC. First of all, he's going to blow up the cabs. So we can ask him how he actually is going to do this, even given their salaries. Number two, he's had a bunch of stats about how I saw he posted a video about how DeMarder or Chey Gilles

Alexander has basically turned into Demard de Rosen when Wembe's on the court. He just is not even going to the basket anymore. And he has all the numbers to go along with it. So we'll ask him about that as well. And then he broke a big story earlier this week about the future of the NBA draft

and most importantly, the NBA draft lottery. KOC is going to join us on the other side. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Winter gets all of the credit for being messy, but here's the thing. Summer might even be worse. Sand from the beach, grass from the park, melted snacks, sunscreen everywhere,

drinks spilling on long drives, it all adds up. Weather tech keeps you covered. Whether it's a cargo liner, floor liners, and seat protectors, they all help handle whatever summer throws your way. They're tough, easy to clean, and made to last. If summer means getting out and doing more, weather tech helps make sure your car isn't slacking on defense. Visit weathertech.com today. Look who it is, my old compadre from the mismatch, Kevin O'Connor, now with Yahoo Sport,

joining us on the mismatch. Kevin! Bruno! Jakalde! As a long time mismatch fan, it makes my heart warm to hear you say Kevo.

Can you do it again? No, I'm not doing it anymore. Hey, look, the first thing's first. We're going to get to the Easter conference finals. Kevin, you just watched the game just like we did. We've already given our thoughts on what we saw, the brilliance of the Knicks. And then I'm going to need you to tell me

what you thought about that game series, and then I need you to blow up the Cleveland Cavaliers and explain to us how we can. Well, that's what I was going to say. Did anybody say the Cavs need to blow it up yet? We were right on you. We saved it for you. We saved it for you.

We saved it for you. I mean, it's just disgusting. I mean, yeah, you make any sub-conference finals, but what a hideous roster. This team has no heart. Like, Kenny Agonson uses the word force all the time. This team plays with no force, no heart, no intensity, but also what was he saying between these games or two one analytically?

What a joke. Shot quality. Shot quality guy. You're favorite. Game five is on Wednesday night analytically, actually. But I mean, obviously the Cavs, like they'll figure their things out. But Jacoby, you and everybody in New York must just be overjoyed with what's transpired here. I mean, because the thing with New York is people don't fully understand.

there's there's jets and giants fans there's yankees and metz fans but in new york everybody loves the nix no offense to the nets but it's just the reality of it almost everybody there is a nix fan and so that city is just going to be absolutely crazy the next three weeks or however long in the finals goes i'm just i'm fired up for nix fans because i know what it's like growing up a boston fan hearing stories oh we're never going to win it's been decades and and here they are they're actually in the finals and have a chance to do it and for the one of the one of the most of the passionate fan bases in the world. I'm just,

I'm happy for all the Knicks fans in my life. It's, uh, it feels great and thank you very much. It's, it's an odd feeling because this wasn't like a juggernaut team. When James Dolan said it's finals or bust, I was going,

I don't know, dude. Like, I don't know. It feels like a second round and out to me. You know, and then you see the Celtics play so well during the regular season, the pisses play so well during the regular season.

And there was a very up and down regular season for the Knicks, but to be playing the best basketball, to have every. every single player in a Knicks jersey on a heater at the same time. And Mike Brown pulling the perfect strings at the same time. And what happens with the Knicks is like everything else. Like the fan base grows and grows with every win in the playoffs. And now every single person at the gym I went to today is wearing a Nix jersey.

It's just like it's pandemonium here. And the final is going to be crazy. And I just want to say this before we move on, the Nix are going to win the finals. Forget him. They're going to win the finals. Hey, he's, he's all cloud-d-night tonight. There's the thunder or the spurs. The Knicks are going to win the finals.

They're going to. What do you- The hottest team at the hottest time, the most important time, they're going to win the finals. Kev, he mentioned Mike Brown. What did Mike Brown get right? What do you think he got right that turned this Knicks team into a juggernaut?

I mean, I think you juxtaposed against Tom Tibido last year and in past year is basically everywhere he's ever coached. Tibbs is just so stubborn and so fixed with what he does. Mike Brown showed adaptability. in the middle of the first round, putting the ball into Carl Anthony Towns's hands, pulling the right strings throughout the entire postseason.

I mean, Kat had his role changed throughout Brunson, his role changed. It felt like this was a team where even in game one in the fourth quarter, he goes five out. He puts Landry Schaman in there instead of Josh Hart. And I just think time and time again throughout the entire postseason. Obviously, you credit the players for dominating the way they have. But Mike Brown as well has to help to orchestrate that, I think with his decisions.

And look, I mean, firing a coach that made the Eastern Conference finals took guts for the Knicks to do last year, firing Tibbs, but that proved to be one of many elite, excellent decisions by a great front office. And yeah, I just think it's awesome,

awesome. So will it take guts for the calves to do it? Because I think they're going to. No. It takes no guns. No guts. It takes no guts to do that. Everybody is welcoming it.

But, Kev, I know we're talking about blowing up the calves. How? I mean, Donovan Mitchell's on the books for 50. Mowgli's on the books for 50. Hardin has got a player option for 42. Allen's got 28. You can probably move Allen for 28 pretty easily somewhere.

Like somebody would want him for 20. Not after tonight. I mean, Struz is 16.6. Schrooter is 15. I mean, this looks like a hard one to sift your way out of. Look, I think. Despite Mobley's struggles, you could find a suitor for him, given how young he still is. Obviously, it's Donovan Mitchell, not a lot of time left on his contract, so value would be lower there.

But he's still a very talented player, right? And I think maybe it's advantageous, actually, that he would only have one year remaining on his deal rather than four years at that price point. Because maybe you think, oh, we get him at a big price point for one year, and then we can sign him for a little bit cheaper in the long term. So I think it's possible for Cleveland. but, you know, it's just going to be so interesting within this offseason because, you know, back in February there were the rumors of Dan Gilbert and the Cavaliers having interest in Janus and having some talks with Milwaukee. Those rumors are still out there about Gilbert really wanting Janus.

So I could also see this team deciding we're just going to hire a new coach and we're going to double down on this core and go try to get people. Do they have the assets to go out and do that? I don't think they'd be the team with the best on the table for Janus. And I think going that path would ultimately be a mistake. I just think there's something fundamentally wrong with the fabric of this team. And, Bruno, you know, for years, we went at it over James Hardin, right? At his peak, right, the Warriors versus the Rockets and his flaws even at the time in his peak.

But at this point, there's no question. Oh, you're on my side now. Well, yeah. So let's talk about Killian Hayes. Hey. But also, I do want to say this as a long-time mismatch fan before I was on the mismatch, one thing that you guys talked about was Okoro and that like for the fifth beetle spot. And they've just never figured it out.

They never figured it out. Hey. And they tried. They auditioned 10 people for that spot. And they never figured out. All right. Kevin, would it change your mind if that fifth beetle was LeBron James? No.

I don't think it would. You would not. You wouldn't. If I told you LeBron wants to come back home with his son, you'd take him to. Well, Brian, Ronnie, he would be the fifth, right? Because you got to give up Hardin to get LeBron, right? Right. Would you, if I told you, would you, would you hit the brakes on blowing it up if I told you that is his, that's his preference in the off season?

and obviously LeBron is not coming to a blow it up situation. He's going to a team that he thinks has a chance to win. No, I don't think it would change my viewpoint there. And that's just in part because of my disbelief in Evan Mobley. If you're banking on him to elevate his play on the offensive end of the floor when he can't create, can't shoot. And even defensively, yes, he's a defensive player of the year in part because of guys Victor Webminyama that weren't eligible for the 65 games last year.

He is not an enforcer. He is not an communicator. And he is one of the reasons why this team for the last two years, they just fizzle in the postseason. He's a regular season player. And I think that is shown with his stagnation, with his development, and his inability to just be an enforcer and a tough guy in the postseason. So if you're banking on him getting better and being a championship core with 42-year-old

LeBron next year, I know that wouldn't change my viewpoint. I will say on the Mobley front. And he is not the player that this player was, but early in my career, I covered and was super, super hard on Powell Gasol. And Powell Gasol was wildly miscast to be that. And you find this to be true of a lot of different power forwards, where we look and we blame that they're not the ones,

typically they're not the ones bringing up. A guy, power forwards that need the ball pass to them. And Powell got with Kobe and became a championship level number two, right? But he needed that. He needed somebody way better than him that was taking the reins and also taking the reins in the locker room, in the huddles and everything else, right? And that is what Mowgli strikes me as, right?

And obviously Donovan Mitchell is not that. James Harden is not that. But I do think if you put Mowgli with like, I don't know, Anthony Edwards or somebody like that, you know what I'm saying? Or like one of these, one of these alpha dogs of a parade. perimeter player that you might be able to get the most out of it. It's kind of the plight of cat as well, right? Like the things that we knocked on cat, like these guys are like the, the softer

playing power forward. Don't you dare compare Evan Mobley to our god, Carl Anthony Towns. Oh, stop. Tell me, I'm asked this question to COC. What offensively is Evan Mobley great at? Right. Literally nothing? Literally nothing.

Literally. Don't say he, don't compare him to Carl Anthony Towns. He's literally not great at anything offensively. He's also really young, though. He is young. We've been waiting for Evan Mobley to be Evan Mobley for three years now, and he's still not Evan Mobley. And to Jacoby's point, Carl Anthony Towns was a key player in Minnesota

and the first time the Timberwolves beat the Nuggets. He was the guy defending Yokic one-on-one in that game with some help from Gora. But that's 10 years into his career. Sure, but he was also, you know, a very high-level shooter. He was an all star in part because of his offensive play. He's a passer. Mowbly can't dribble, can't pass, can't create for himself. He's one of the most overrated players in basketball.

It has been for years now. The fact he's been ranked top 20 on so many player rankings is a joke. Honestly. He's a zero level score. You know, three level scores? He's a zero level score. Zero level scorer. That's spot on.

He's also still young. He is. He's not. Come on. If I had any mobile stock, I would sell it to you right now. Yeah. He's entering his fifth year, right? Or six years, is it at this point?

Yeah. How long do we need to see it? I don't know. He kind of does remind me of Jaron in a lot of ways. He really does. He's not as, he's not as good offensively as Jaron. But they're both 50. And to your point about somebody would take him,

Jared Jackson Jr. is about to get paid $50 million and Utah gladly took it. You know what I mean? And so. And paid a lot to get them, including an unprotected first. He did it. That might not come back to haunt them, evidently. All right. So we're going to blow up the calves.

The Knicks are, look, you're hearing Jacoby saying, Djokobes already got them hoist in the trophy. They're playing the parade. It's over. Have these last 11 games that they bombed people out changed your opinion about what the Nix would be capable in the finals of doing? Definitely. Yeah.

I think we all have, right? I mean, I think you remember what, what month was it, Jacoby? Like middle of March when the Knicks were suddenly, it was like, ah, this team kind of lost their chemistry. Was it March? Oh, no, that was the middle of November. That was the middle of January. That was the middle of March.

What are you talking about? They didn't want me to pinpoint one point in the season? He actually pulled six articles that were all about Carltown's not knowing what his role was. Yeah. It's embarrassing. I did research for the show for the first time. Well, put it this way. All those months, it was fair to question them,

but this feels like the dream scenario, the dream of what they could be with how they're playing right now because Bridges has completely turned his year around, gone from massive overpay to, oh, this is what we paid for. Yeah. Like Carlentatown's ball in his hands, Jalen Brunson playing with the ball

and without the ball because Cat is facilitating. OG and Anobi looking like the perfect supporting star, a group of really talented role players. You can play with Josh Hart. You can play with Linger, Shamit. Duspric Bride can have big games for you. Oh, by the way,

you have Grant Daffa Alvarado off the bench. You have Mitchell Robinson. Shammat. I mean, it's everything, right? Up and down the roster. So I just think this next team has proven that they are indeed a threat, regardless of it's of its Oklahoma City or San Antonio.

Am I going to pick him in the series? I don't think so, maybe against OKC. But they have a real shot. And I think the finals is going to go deep, regardless of the opponent. And I'll say this, Jacoby, but they make it to the NBA finals. Everything gets validated by making it to the NBA finals. The coaching change gets validated. The Towns deal gets validated.

The McCall Bridge's deal gets validated. Like on down the line all the way back to obviously Brunton, the greatest deal ever. Mike Breen said, in the fourth quarter of that game, that in 19 previous years to Jalen Brunson arriving in New York, they won seven playoff games. And since Jalen Brunson's arrival, they have won 33. That is insanity. I just want to keep-playoff game. We have to keep Pablo Tori away from the Jalen Brunson deal.

That's my main focus for the next three weeks. That's your guy. I'm texting. I'm texting. You come after O's the mentalist, but you can't come after her, the Jalen Bruns and deal. Did you know that I actually,

over the course of like 10 different sittings, watched the original O's Perlman five-hour takedown video. No, you did it. Like a month ago, I swear to God, I watched the whole five-hour video in like 10 different set at the sittings.

Is it worth watching? Well, I've been in O's victim before. I've been, I've worked with those. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, look, I am very impressed. by his ability to do what he does.

But it certainly does remove some of the mystique around him for sure. That's well put. All right. So look, on the Western Conference finals, I saw your video you posted earlier, and I didn't see this one coming. Victor Wenbinyama has turned Shagyield just Alexander into DeMar de Rosen.

I like this. I like this. This great, great headline, I'll click on that 100 times of 100. Tell us the numbers behind this. All right. So with SGA,

as we know, he loves to get to the basket. He loves to get into the paint and score at will. But with Victor Webiniana on the floor in this series, SGA is taking only 12% of his shots at the rim compared to his normal average

of 24%. His percentage of shots in the paint, not non-restricted area has dropped from 17% to 10% and his mid-range percentage has risen from 38% his average during the full playoffs and the regular season has gone up to 57% so basically Wembe's presence when he's on the floor in this series has turned SGA and just to a pull-up mid-range shooter

and those are so often heavily contested by Castle or Vassell. I helped defender coming over. And it's what happened with Edwards. It's what happened with everybody. It happened with Denny Avdi in the first try. It happened with Terrence Shannon. He tries dunking on Wembe in game one. He's like, I'm done trying that.

Everybody's afraid of this guy, including a two-time MVP. It's just, it's remarkable. The idea is he, even if the forget block numbers, that is the signifier of being the. a turrent that we know he is. Exactly. He's making your best player not play his game.

Last year with the Thunder and the Nuggets, right? The Nuggets played a lot of zone and they turned a thunder into a heavy three-point shooting team by playing zone, more perimeter rather than letting them get into the pain. And it worked. It worked pretty well. Usually that's what teams have to do to change

the shooting habits, the shot distribution of an opponent. The Spurs, they just have Richard Webby, Yama on their team. Right. And that alone changes everything. And just one last step related to that, when Wembe is off the floor and it's Luke Cornette out there, SGA tates 67% of his shots in the paint at the wind.

Oh, my God. Wait a second. So it goes mid-range goes from 38% to 57% when Wimby's on. And then it's 20, and then it's 25% when Wembe's off. in the series. So when a cornet's on. At the rim. So in his in the paint shots go from 22% with Wemby to 67% without Wemby.

Like I mean like this is like these are numbers behind what you're seeing with your eyes. Anytime when be the camera pans to him on the bench, the thunder are living in the paint. Well, they're trying to make up for lost time. No, let me ask question, Berno. Let me ask you. Because here's one question I can't really answer. Because I watched Wembe in game one of this series.

And I was like, well, this is the best player in basketball. Right. Game two, kind of got beat up a little bit by Hartnstein. Game three wasn't aggressive expressing himself the same way. Four rebounds, game three. Yeah, game four, I saw the same guy from game one. Like, how do you explain the sort of delta between game one and four in the game two and three group together?

I think it's a good question. I mean, honestly, it wasn't fatigue for games two and three. but if it was fatigue, what was different in Game 4? Right, exactly. So I think it's hard to say, but ultimately, I mean, even with those games 2 and 3, with him not feeling like his game 1 self, in those games, the Thunder were only a plus 1 when Wembe and SGA were on the floor.

So it was pretty even overall when Wembe and SGA were both out there, whereas in game 1, they were at minus 14 the Thunder were, and then in game 4, they were at minus 24. So it's not like they smoked them in games two and three when their two stars were out there. Well, and the interesting thing, Kev, is like you saw Mitch Johnson make this adjustment last night where he didn't pull him out after five minutes, right? Like the game starts and a lot of times he'll pull him out of the game. He let him go. What?

Like, I think the first nine minutes of the game. It was like, all right, I learned my lesson. We, we're going to build up this big ass lead before I pull him out of the game because even in game. three, they came out the gates. What was it? Like 15-0-0-0. They were beating the shit out of them at the beginning of the game. And then he sat Wemby. And by the time you got to the end of the first quarter,

the damn thing was like tied something, right? Like so he just, he's leaving Wembe in for longer stretches. It feels like because they're obviously, I mean, they've got a big advantage when he's out on the floor. And the difference between him and Cornette, especially, it's almost like you've got to, line his minutes up with SGAs at this point, right?

I mean, in Cornett's a good player. Right, right, right. It just shows the difference between him and Wembe. It's just, it's massive. And Cornett's dealing with some type of lower body injury, too. I don't know if that's affecting him. The nuns will fix that. The nuns can fix that.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Do you think that if there's no Jaila Williams and no A.J. Mitchell, that that's a bridge too far in the same way that we thought if you don't get Fox and Harper, it's a bridge too far because it's just too much castle. And that in this case, you're counting on what? I guess Chet to be your second banana, who is also at this point seemingly ill-equipped to be the second banana.

Yeah, definitely ill-equipped. He's nowhere close. And like everything we said about Mobley earlier, I think in some regards applies to chat. It's like off the dribble. He just doesn't have that in his skill set at this point. And he's took 24 shots in the series when he's on the floor, and only six of them, he's dribbled the ball.

So, and most of those are just a little mid-range pull-ups. So I think with, with Chet Holmgren, he is not capable of being that second banana that you need, which you'd hope for is an all-N-B-A guy, but that's not why he was all-N-B-A. They need A.J. Mitchell, we already know he's out for game five, or they need J. Dove, and I believe he's out for game five, too. I haven't seen it announced, but it was announced with AJ. I don't like the way it's trending. So we should, I should tell the group chat that we're going to San Antonio, is that you're saying?

Hey, I got them right here. I got flights booked for both. Do you do? Yeah, I do. I got flights booked for both. So, but we'll see. We'll see. If they don't get those guards back, it's going to be really, really hard, right?

Totally. Because they did just decide, you know what? We're staying at home on these. The Alex Caruso's of the world don't get open shots anymore. We'll just guard SGA straight up. And we'll shade it. We'll shade to him. But we ain't running a bunch of doubles so that you get open threes.

And it worked. It worked. Because Castle can hold up. I mean, he's a rough dude. So, Verna won't say it, KOC, but can you please explain how the NBA is trying to fuck over the Grizzlies? Yeah, what's going on here, man? You got to explain. I asked the question.

He broke a big story. Explain to us like we're five years old what's happening. All right, can we skip over everything else with a 3-2-1 lottery? Or does that understand? Sure, sure. Yes. If you're listening to mismatch, you get it. Yeah.

Okay. All right, we could. And so look, look, and this is another one of these things. So this was obviously, look, good job getting this story. You make it public. Obviously, then people are commenting on it. It feels like the NBA always lets this stuff come out almost on purpose as like trial balloons to see what the public reaction will be.

And KOC fixes it. Yeah. And you're attempting to fix this before it becomes law, right? I mean, I hope they fix it before Thursday's vote because it doesn't make much sense. And I think to give a very basic briefing of what it is. As part of the NBA's new lottery reform, there's a mechanism in there where no team is allowed to get the first pick in the draft and two consecutive drafts, and no team is allowed to get a top five pick and three consecutive drafts for a long time through basically this whole month since it was first announced front office people have wondered, does that streak attach to the team that's holding the pick

or does it attach to the original team with the pick? And in the NBA's memo, they sent out to to everybody around the league late last week. They gave an example. example with Team A and Team B. So this is very easy to understand. If Team A has Team B's pick in the 27 draft as a result of a trade and Team B's pick lands first, then Team B's own pick in 2028 would not be eligible to land first. Whereas Team A, they could pick first again in 2028 because it wasn't their own pick pick that landed first.

Does that make a little bit of sense? It's insane. Okay, so that that's, but that's the way they've decided to do it. And so what that means is because of these, the no number one pick in two years in a row, no top five pick three years in a row, they're decided to go back retroactively. This is the controversial part and all of this that people are talking about around the league. They're going back to this year's draft for the number for the number one pick rule. That means the wizards who have the number one pick this year are not eligible to pick first in the 2027 drafts.

their own first round pick. They're going back to the 20-25 draft for the no top five picks in three years in a row for that other one. And what does that mean for one team in the league? Only one! Only one. Only one.

Your Memphis Grizzlies, Chris, own an unprotected first round pick acquired for Jaron Jackson Jr. They owned that pick, which was number five in 2025. number two this year, and therefore, the Utah Jazz pick cannot be in the top five in the 2027 NBA draft, which is owned by the Memphis Grizzlies, which the Grizzlies traded Jared Jackson Jr. for an all-NBA guy, an All-Star, a former defensive player, three months ago, as an unprotected pick, is now becoming essentially top five protected because

of this arbitrary decision by the NBA, which I think is ridiculous. I don't like the rule, period, for any, for any team. I think they should get rid of the top five pick rule. I mean, top five pick, like, what are you going to get? Mario, his own you, right? I mean, like, the fifth player is, right? Sometimes you can be the spurs, right? Yeah, and it works out.

It's hard not to think about the spurs. Yeah, but also you could be the wizards who have gotten unlucky, right? But if you make a transaction before the rule is in place, you should not have that transaction affected. If you trade Jaron Jackson Jr., your arguably second best player, first best player, who cares, you should not be punished. Those trade assets should not diminish post trade because somebody changed the rules. Right.

And like I think it would be, I mean, there's been 40 plus unprotected first round picks that have been dealt over the next seven drafts already. Oh, my God. So it might be challenging for the league to say all of those are exempts. Yeah, all of them are exempt. Like it might be tough to do that. However, I think it's going retroactive two years for the no top five picks, three years in a row rule, and then going back one year for the no first pick in two consecutive years rule just seems so inconsistent to me.

I think we already, with this three to one lottery, considering how flatten the odds become, It is such a low probability, a low statistical probability that a team lands in the top five, three years in a row or even gets number one two years in a row. We already have the mechanism built in with the rule to eliminate tanking and minimize those odds. I don't think we need this on top of that. And that's not even touching on just blatantly how unfair it is to the Grizzlies. It's ridiculous. I appreciate you stand it up for the Grizzlies. I decided after I read your article and it all came out, I'm not going to freak out

until they actually go through with it. Right? Like it is floated out there. Now they understand how absurd this is. I cannot imagine that they would allow that to take place. But we will see, right? Look, I'll freak out when times come. I will say, half the Grizzlies front office has law degrees. So they're not the ones to be trifled with. Zach Klein, Zach Lyman, Zach Lyman's a lawyer. He, that's what he was. He was team counsel before he ever took over his general injure. So you got to be careful with these cats.

Someone's building a really nice hotel in Memphis right now because they see an opportunity. I'm telling you, I'm telling you. It's there, there's already bids in on some, some plots right in downtown for a really nice four seasons in the middle of Memphis. Just seems crazy. Again, when it, again, that one in particular, it only, it'd be different. if it was like, well, there's other teams that this is going to affect. There actually isn't. There isn't.

And they just traded their fan favorite player for this asset that was the best asset. And you are ruining that asset. And we haven't even seen the job package yet. Right. A couple second round picks for job, maybe. How dare you. Oh, that's rude. You are a guest here.

Too soon. Too soon. Boot him from the room. Too soon. I mean, you're right. Like the Grizzlies are the only team directly affected with that rule. But they're like as Jacoby said earlier, there's a ton of other picks that have been dealt already.

So like the Houston Rockets in 2029, they own the Sun's unprotected first round pick. The Suns might not make the playoffs either of the next two years. They could end up in the top five and 27. And in 28, you're telling me that the Rockets shouldn't get that pick. Right. In 2029, if it lands top five again,

just I just don't like the rule. for any team. I'm so torn on all this because you know, I hate tanking more than anything. And I'm so glad that they are making this punitive and making everybody want to be competitive.

And then of course, it's like, yeah, and we're going to do all this shit. And they kill my team. It's like, hold on. As soon as we get rid of the tanking, you're making the worst rule ever. Like I just had to go, I had to call like 50 games of watching Ryan Rupair play basketball. Like you can't do this.

We get the first pick. We get the, we get that pick. And you know what? In fairness, Utah should be good next year. They should. They should. It might not matter. It might not matter.

They should be like the sixth seed, right? And this is all for nothing. They should be. I have no idea how good Utah is going to be next year. No, they should be. They could be the number two seed or the number 14. I don't even know. I don't even know what they look like playing together. No, if they got Keonté, George, Darren Peterson, Jared Jackson, Laurie Barkin, like, they should be.

They should be good. I think they should be good too. I think they're going to be really competitive. I'd be surprised if they're not, at least in the plan, right? You know, and but obviously if you're in the plan, you can still be in the lottery. That's the thing. I know. I know. They could be the 7-8 that loses that game and they might end up with a one lottery ball out of 30. assembly. You never know what can happen. Before we wrap this up, go ahead, Jacoby, bust my ass. Go do whatever you want to do.

I just want to say. You got KOC right here. You guys can, you guys can convene on how terrible it is to work with him. I think this is a great, this is a great example right here. This guy won't lay out. He just doesn't lay out.

I mean, just won't lay out. I just want to say what a pleasure it is with Bernard and I have no notes. He's a perfect individual. He's actually no notes about him. And I love so much. Couldn't ask for a better cause in the whole entire world. Right, KOC?

Bruno's the best. Oh, you guys are fighting both of you. I love him very much. Verno, I mean, is always a privilege to podcast with Chris Wooden. This is the best. Yeah, he is the absolute best. I'm glad we can make it all happen. Thanks for listening to another episode of The Mismatch.

Thanks to Jeff and Steph as always. And Jacoby, I'll talk to you later this week. Go Nick! Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair.

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