The Mismatch - The Return of Kyrie? Plus Cleveland Rising, King Down in Sac Town, and the Nearing Trade Season.

Episode Date: December 14, 2021

Verno and KOC discuss the potential return of Kyrie Irving (01:01). Despite the Nets being on top in the East, KOC argues that the Nets still need him. While discussing the surprising Cavs team, the guys cheer for Kevin Love, who has played a lot better as of late (06:22). They discuss more reasons why the Cavs are succeeding and what the future holds for the franchise. Verno was excited to watch the 76ers last night until they announced that Joel Embiid wasn’t going to play. They both agree that without Embiid, the 76ers aren’t very good and debate different moves the franchise can make (19:57). They also look at the sad state of the Kings franchise (25:54). KOC is adamant that the Celtics will find a way to win with Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown (31:54). With the trade deadline inching closer the guys debate whether any big moves will be made before the year ends (36:44). Finally, they get excited at the potential return of Isaiah Thomas, as he signed with the Nuggets G-League affiliate (46:16). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer Gambling Show is here to help you place your bets on the biggest sports around the world. Join NFL analyst Warren Sharp on Mondays and Fridays with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. Each week, they'll cover everything from spreads, game totals, and parlays to player props, futures, post-game reactions, and more. Check out the Ringer Gambling Show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Marnan and joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'C., Kevin O'Cly, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'clock. Kevin O'Killian, Kevin O'Conroversy, Kevin O'Carverso. Kevin!

Verdo! What's going on this Tuesday? Well, we are almost halfway through the season, certainly a little more than a third of the way through the season. And news breaks yesterday, we may watch Kyrie Irving play basketball. This morning he posts a picture of him putting on basketball shoes. And so it looks like unbelievably, the irony of all of this to me is COVID is raging through the NBA. And then there's the announcement, hey, and Kyrie Irving's coming back.

I'm like, well, hold on now. What is going on here? So who knows what the timing is? Shams Sharania comes out with this story saying him and Durant have been in constant talks. And it's really ramped up recently talking basketball. talking about how he would fit with the team on and on. We don't really have all that much clarity of how Kyrie Irving is going to reenter playing in the NBA. But with the picture of the shoes this morning, the story yesterday,

sounds like we're right around the corner from a debut. Was he just promoting the Kyrie 8th? I don't know which sneakers, though, those were that he was putting on in the video. But does he have a new release out? Was it a promotional thing? But yeah, I mean, obviously the timing of all that after the Shams report yesterday is very, very, very interesting with Kyrie returning. What was your theory early in the year? Just wants to sit out.

He had a clothing line dropped two days ago, too. Oh, he did. I see. Yeah. Got a lot of non-basketball stuff. Well, it's hard to sell product when you're not playing. Yeah. It sure helps to be a superstar worldwide.

known basketball player like Kyrie Irving is. But the the Nets need him, Chris. I mean, I know Katie second and MVP voting for the Tim Bond Temps, Strapple that he took with a bunch of media voters. Katie's been sensational. Hardin's been overwhelming, but still very good.

They need that scoring presence that Kyrieving can provide. I mean, it's kind of unusual to expect a team still with Katie and Hardin to miss Kyrie so much and still be in top of the east, but for them to win the championship to beat Milwaukee, as good as they've been. Doesn't it feel like they do need Kyrie and or some type of moves? And there was obviously the Jake Fisher report today about their at least listening to offers for

Nick Clackson and Joe Harris. The Nets are at least trying to get creative here and they need Kyrie back. They absolutely need Kyrie back. And I think the Joe Harris thing is real. Like not having him unavailable. Oh yeah. That hurts. You know what I mean? Like when you spend And as much money as they have on three players, your depth is going to take a hit. And so you really need to win with young players, guys on rookie contracts, and the additions. Blake Griffin has not been what he was for them last year. Lamarcus Altridge, I think probably better than what you would have expected in his return. But they don't have all that much.

It's a lot of pressure on KD, especially in the absence of Hardin being great, right? Like, he's been good, but he's not been great for them this year. And so, yeah, they need him back. And they need him back badly if they're going to have a chance at winning the title. It'll be interesting to see my theory, he proved me wrong on this. I thought he just, you know, veteran, been in the league a long time, doesn't want to play pre-season. Doesn't want to have to do training camp, doesn't want to do the preseason. But, I mean, hell, we're into December now.

And he still hasn't touched the floor. So it obviously wasn't just a, I don't want to go through all of the stuff that none of the veterans like to do. And this is a good reason to not have to do it. like he's really I don't know what guns he has stuck to if he comes back and plays now but he certainly

hasn't been playing basketball thus far and you know look I'm glad he's back it is well not back yet well he's gonna be he's gonna be

that story drops for a reason right like it Choms very close to Durant And so you know that that was a precursor to what is going to happen. Like just letting people know, hey, I'm coming back soon. This is, this is herdling towards your turn, right? Yeah. I mean, who would know better than Kevin?

We'll see. We'll see. You know, we'll see. I'll tell you what, Chris, I look forward to watching Kyrie play basketball. Oh, yeah. I look forward to it. All the antics, some of his opinions on things, whatever you ought to say. He's his own dude, that is for sure.

But he is a crazy talented, fun basketball player to watch. No doubt about that. There's no question. One of the most fun to watch. Chris, did you see Kevin Love had 23 points in that game last night? It wasn't even all the familiar names that we've been talking about. Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, Darius Garland. K. Love with 23.

You know, he's actually been good for them. this year. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's had a lot of poor games, but he's also, you know,

had some good classic vintage K-love moments that he's brought back. He still can do. He can still knock down some threes. He could still, if you throw somebody little on him, he could still body him up. He's always been a good passer. You know,

he's a bench big. Look, you could do a lot worse on bench bigs that Kevin loved. Oh, not about it. Is he wildly overpaid for a bench big? bench picture. But you know what?

He's also, if you watch their games, he's up cheering them on. He's like high-fiving everybody. Like he's been, I don't know, after last season and the ridiculousness of that. And then, you know, the Olympic thing was a disaster for sure. I mean, he got sent and he went back home and was not going to be good enough to play for that team. And you never know, there was never going to be a buyout because he's not going to take any less money. And so getting him engaged and having him actually be like a good veteran on that team has been quite the change from what we had seen out of him because he was the he was the poster boy for the probably could give you something,

but is giving you very little to nothing disgruntled. I don't want to be here veteran. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think with him, he missed like 15 days, about a little over two weeks with COVID in November.

And he was really struggling before that absence. I think he was shooting like 34%, like his first 10 games before he was out. and maybe the time off, I'm not sure if he was symptomatic or anything like that. I forget the details, but he's been much better since returning coming off the bench for Cleveland. And I mean,

obviously, as you said, Chris, he's way overpaid for the money that he has. But it's okay because you have a bunch of other guys on low rookie deals and Evan Mobley, Darius Garland. You have Jared Allen on a fairly priced contract, Laurie Marketing and as well.

So, I mean, this Cleveland team, it's, it's Kevin Love is playing well enough that maybe some other teams would be like, yeah, we'll take him on a short term short short term deal if Cleveland did decide they want to make moves. But ultimately, man, like he's just a guy coming off the bench right now. This, this Cleveland roster is about all these young starters. They made the right choice,

in my opinion, not resigning Colin Sexton because we're seeing what this team can be with just Garland really is the key figure in that back court. And I think for them, they're set up so nicely at this point to shuffle these pieces and whatever the way they need to to build around the three main guys, Alan, Mobley, and Garland. They can move other pieces if need be

to maximize those guys, optimize what they can be. Because they got something special, man. I mean, we've talked about Mobley a lot on this pod, Chris, but Darius Garland in some ways, I feel like we haven't talked about quite as often. Remember him as a rookie? I mean, he

was not great as a rookie, but he showed some flashes. Those flashes are happening night in, night out at this point with his ability to generate offense either for himself with pull up three point shots, pull up mid range shots, but also the playmaking ability. I mean, he has such good vision. And I'm excited for what Cleveland can be in the future. But even today, this is already a super competitive team. And I'm a buyer on them maintaining this playoff spot in the Eastern Conference. It's so funny. Would you bring up Garland? It's always what you thought of last. And I was talking to this guy the other day who grew up in Nashville and was a high school basketball player. And he was telling me, he was like, I was like, were you good? And he was like, yeah, he's like, I was good. I played on the competitive teams. He's like, my high school team was good.

He's like, we made it to state. And I was like, oh, yeah? And I was like, could you play against? And he was like, well, then we played Darius Garland's team. He was there at the same time. And I was like, how'd that go? He's like, he dropped like 60 on us. He's the best basketball player I've ever seen in my life.

And so he told me, he's the best basketball player ever seen in my life. He got dropped like 60 on our head. He's like, we have, we tried everybody. He just torched every single player on the roster. And I was like, you know, he's really coming to his own this year. He started coming to his own in the NBA. And here was some guy that had to play against him in high school. And he's like, you ain't got to tell me he's awesome.

because he's been awesome for a long time. And there's just a wildly fascinating team. They don't have wings. It's so they're just big, right? They've got Mowgli. They've got Allen. They even play, you know, their small forward marketed is a giant. And they don't really, that's what they need.

They need some wings. Yeah. I mean, Okoro, Okoro is a very interesting player in the sense that his defense is already there. You know, the feel is already there. It's just the scoring's not. No, he's not an offensive player. No, it's not there. Defense energy, which I like.

You know what I mean? It's useful. Yeah, I talked about this with Sam and Mike on the Wednesday pod last week. And it's like Okoro is the type of guy. He can still find a role on an NBA squad. You don't need to have a jump shot. But with this Cleveland squad, with the amount of size that I have and it seems like this is the direction that they're building, I'm not sure the fit there is perfect for him.

with what they want to be and what they already are today. So, I mean, we'll see how it works out with Okora. I still think he can be a very good player. And maybe that'll happen in Cleveland. I mean, we'll see how the piece has changed in the years to come. But right now, this team's for real. Do you think they hold on to a top six spot, Chris? Or do you see them kind of like maybe sliding into that playing range

as some other teams that have underachieved early might leapfrog them? They'll be in the play. You think so? Seven to ten range for Cleveland? Yes. I mean, do you think they have a quality shot at maintaining a top six seed, though? I think it would be very difficult over the long haul. We're, you know, third of the way into the season, a little more than a third of the way into the season.

And so I am a believer that they are much better than any of us could have expected, much better than they could have expected. But I think top six seed, that's a bridge too far. And I think that if they were seven to ten, that is an unbelievable season given the expectations. They will have outperformed teams that we were certain were going to be better than the Cleveland Cavaliers. I think that's fair. I mean, like you just look at the standings right now. They have Brooklyn, Chicago, Milwaukee ahead of them. There are three games back from Brooklyn for the top seat in the east.

Right behind them is Miami by half a game. by a game and a half, Washington by a game and a half, Charlotte by two, Boston by two and a half, Toronto by three, Atlanta by three. Atlanta's the 11 right now, Chris. New York is the 12 right now. There's a lot of quality teams in the Eastern Conference. And these teams are so condensed, so close together. It wouldn't be shocking if they do slide at the 7 to 10. But I do think this team's defense is for real. I think Mobley, if he's able to make. progress offensively over the course of the season. Their offense could get even better. And like I said, I'm talking about what moves does this team make in the years to come to optimize Mobley and Garland in this young core? But they could do stuff this season too. They could.

I mean, weren't they one of the teams on the list? They're probably more on the trek of, hey, here's our timeline for being really good. it might not be crazy to think that they make a move that might hurt them this year, but really help them two, three years down the road. You know what I'm saying? Because look, the guys like Glove, the guys like Rubio, those guys help you win games like a couple times a week. You know what I'm saying?

Like, they help you win games. Now, playing veterans can help you win games. That being said, if they have voucher, you and they can be moved, you might actually take a little bit of a step back in the current in order to be better for the future in order to build around those guys on the proper timeline. Because the truth is this, you're not winning anything anyway. You know what I'm saying? Like it'd be great to get them in the play in, get maybe some playoff experience possibly. but in terms of a timeline when your two best players are in their rookie,

well, one of them is in their rookie contract still, and the other one is in his first year in the NBA, you know, the ones that you're building around, I mean, if you could get something for the veterans that you've got on your team that will help you but might hurt you right now, but help you in the future, they can go that route too. You know what I mean?

I don't know if they make. win now moves because you're not you're not planning to win right now. It's not like you expect to be going competing with the bucks. But they were one of the reported teams on the list for Ben Simmons. They were one of the teams on that list.

He could fit the timeline though. That's a way of instance. But that's what I'm saying. There are moves that they can make that help today and tomorrow. And Ben Simmons would fit that criteria. I mean, I don't know if there's any other moves out there that fit today and tomorrow,

but Ben Simmons is one of them. And I mean, look, like I said, you can make it work with Okoro, but imagine going from Isaac Okoro to Ben Simmons adding like a bunch of other pieces around that and that's the upgrade on your roster. That would add a heck of a lot like in terms of the playmaking and the half court. And they do need that. It's their defense is already great. And it would be even better.

I mean, if you have Mobley and Allen and Simmons, if you're building with those three as a defensive core, that could be like one of the best defenses in basketball for 10 years. offensively is where this team needs help. And I know I'm obsessed with the idea of Ben Simmons as a screening weapon in the half court. But I think you could make that work with Darius Garland in some pretty exciting ways.

So I mean, well, I don't know if they had the right pieces for it. Philly still wants to wait for Dame. It doesn't matter what Dame says. It doesn't matter what Portland says. That's what Philly wants to do. We'll see how this plays out, though. One, if you go back at time, when the Cleveland Simmons thing came up

it was a garland deal they're not going to give up garland They're not giving up carlain was that really a garland deal I don't remember that yes it was garland in love And you may end up really kicking yourself I don't I don't remember that I honestly don't That was out there

It was out there I'm looking it up right now Look it certainly fits what else do you think If you know Yeah but I don't all I'm just saying is I just don't remember who reported that or where it came from. Who else are you traded for? I mean,

you would be giving up probably a picks based package. What? More than anything. I mean, it would be three-way. We did see that they're talking about three-way deals. It'd be like salary, which would be Okoro and Rubio,

would be those types of players. And there'd be some type of exchange of assets and draft picks. Maybe those draft picks go to a third team. And then that player from that third team goes to Philadelphia. Like that, I'm just trying to get creative here with finding landing spots for Ben Simmons. That's all. I'm not sure on exact details,

but like there's some type of combination that can work. I see it. Sam Amico said, I don't think it was really reporting as much as it. He said it would almost certainly involve Darius Garland, which it would not. Like Cleveland wouldn't get back on it. Well, not anymore.

Before the season, it wasn't crazy. Now it's crazy. I mean, it was crazy before the season. It was crazy. I mean, it's more crazy now. Garland was really spectacular last year. We talked about trading him for James Hardin, for God's sakes. Like, we're now going to where it would have been crazy to bring up Darius Garland.

What? Yeah, because, I mean, was that Damien Lillard? But was Colin Sexton already hurt at the time? I think he was. No. Colin actually got hurt during the season. I forget the timeline. When this happened.

All season stuff. Okay. Off season. Okay. All right. But, I mean, we're talking about Damian Lillard, but we're talking about Damian Lillard, but we're not talking about Darius Garland? I mean, come on.

Yeah, well, different circumstances. Garland's 21 years old. Dame is 32 and Portland is nearing a blow it up stage of their franchise history. Speaking of, I saw that Philly team in person last night right before the game. Well, about an hour before, they say no Seth Curry. And then right before tip-off. And I've watched them warm up. They say no MB.

And I was like, oh, wow. God. Now I get to watch Tobias Harris and Andre Drummond. Boy, you see them without Embed and Curran. You realize what that roster is. Yuck. I mean, they got ran out. I mean, badly. I still love Maxie. I do. I love Maxie. And he impresses me every time I get to see him in person. But, man, that roster is, it's not great. Chris, does Tobias Harris have the worst contract in the NBA right now? No, because he plays. I mean,

he has a, he has a pole. That's a low bar, Chris. He has a pulse. I mean, we just did talking about Kevin Love 10 minutes ago. I mean, come on.

You think it's worse than John Wall's contract? Let's get serious. I mean, we also have guys that don't play at all. We'll see what John Wall looks like when he gets back. We'll say, Tobias is one of the weirdest things because if you ever go, like, just pull him up,

go pull up his stats. stats are great. I mean, you know, for a third guy or really, I guess, a second guy, more so this year. Are they always great though? He always has good numbers. He's like 19 points, good percentages, you know, like he's just, but he's a whatever. And he's overpay. This season, so this is the difference with Tobias Harris.

Last season, averaging 19.5 points per game on 39% from three. This year, 18.6 points per game to 31. percent from three. The numbers from three have not been there for him this season. Maybe he goes back to closer to 40 percent, which is what he's been shooting the last seven years or so from three. So if you can get that out of him, suddenly I think Sixers fans would be a little bit less frustrated with Harris. But right now, I mean, you would hope for more. For a team that's in need of offense without Ben Simmons in need of shot creation, you would hope that the guy making $35 million can provide that for you. But, um,

It has not happened for the Philadelphia 76ers. To me, he's an interesting name. I mean, like, there's a lot of, it's tough to trade deals over $30 million. But if I'm Philadelphia, I wonder if there's some type of way. We're talking about three-way combinations involving Ben Simmons. If there's a way you could also flip Harris elsewhere, like flipping Harris elsewhere for other pieces, like let's say Sacramento were involved. And let's say Sacramento weren't the team receiving Ben Simmons.

would they be willing to flip healed and bagley and for a bigger scoring option at the forward spot rather than having a lot of another guard and healed? I'm just, I don't know if that makes any sense. Like, I'd be curious what Kings fans think about a swap like that. But I'm just thinking aloud here of like we've, we should,

we should believe the reporting that we've seen that Philadelphia is seeking out three way deals involving Simmons. So how are we going to get creative here? And to me, like it's maybe adding other pieces. adding a Harris, exchanging that for other players. So you don't talk about throwing money together, Kev. My God. That's like 70 million dollars.

70 million dollars. I know, but like that's what I'm saying. Like you can't rule out an insanely creative deal here to get something to happen. Because I think something's straight, plain Jane, that that's a lot less likely than a team than a really massive move that changes things up. Because as you yourself said, Chris, like this team has some roster issues. and Mori knows that better than anybody watching what his product in the court. So I wonder if there will be a massive shakeup rather than just a Simmons swap with Philadelphia.

I'm just thinking aloud here, just throwing it out there. We get this trading season coming up on Wednesday, December 15th, and we'll talk about that today. But I'm just, I'm just thinking aloud. I think you're probably dead on. I mean, look, when you see guys take over, they want to keep. they want to keep whatever is the infrastructure that makes them good. But in terms of like all of the margin stuff,

I would be shocked if we don't look up and there is a massively different roster for the 76ers within, you know, a year's time, two years' time. Because that's just the way all of these guys work. In the end, if I take over the product, I want to be able to look at the product and say, I'm responsible for this, this, this, this, and this, right? My predecessor is not responsible.

Now, of course, it's foolishness to get rid of what your predecessor has done correctly, i.e. M.B. But that device Harris contract is not good, right? It's not good. But what you typically see from teams is when somebody new takes over, they want their own roster that they built. therefore they then you're done when when things aren't going well then you're done you know telling the owner well that's because we got this guy and this guy and I'm going to do something about it and if it goes and if it starts going well with guys that you're not responsible for then you don't really get the credit the last guy kind of grits the credit so people always want their own roster so darrell will inevitably end up with his own roster and speaking of you mentioned there's a Sacramento B report that Healed and Bagley are being packaged around, those two are being packaged to, and being shopped around, rather. And he brought up possibly Philly as a landing spot.

Who knows where they're going to end up, but much like we were just talking about, and this is the problem with Sacramento and the changing of, you know, sometimes they have somebody that comes in and consults that he has the power, or maybe they have a GM and he has the power. and he has the power. Or maybe he has the president of basketball ops and he has the power, whatever. Well, now they got this other guy, right, who went and got Hal Burton, went and got Davion Mitchell. Monta McMere.

Yeah, he's not responsible for a lot of the guys that are on that roster. And so he may be the next, another guy that's trying to make a put together a roster in his likeness. Man, you could be trading those guys with both their values at the lowest. they've probably ever been. Really. Really. Bagley and Heal. Heal's having his worst season.

Yeah, he is. He's shooting 10-3s a game, making under 35% of them. I'm not saying, look, I'm not saying that this is how the kid feels, but I will tell you, I was talking to somebody that knows Halliburton very well,

and I said to him, I said, what has happened to him this year? Too much podcasting, right? Huh? Too much podcasting right now, no, no, okay. Oh, sorry. This was the response. The response was...

He's a good podcaster. He's a good. The response was, we have got to get him out of there. Wow. Wow. Already he's in here, too. Well, it's just like, again, and this is what I'm saying. Look, the person I was speaking to is connected to him, but has no power.

Here's what I would tell you. That's the problem when things go the way they have. gone because all of these players inevitably have somebody in their ear telling them. And you have this level of discontent where guys' careers are not going the way that they wanted them to go. And it's an easy blame. They just say it's poison. It's poison, right?

The Solomon Hill tweet when Buddy Heald responded to him saying, speedy recovery, and Solomon Hill responds, same for you, bro. You're still wearing a King's jersey? that's a current NBA player. It's unbelievable. Pooping on the Kings. Right. And a player in a tweet publicly to a player currently on Sacramento.

It's a, I feel for Kings fans, Chris, because I don't know what the solutions. Do I ever? I don't know what the solutions are here when I don't know. I mean, I'm pretty sure this is known here. The organization has a mandate to make the playoffs. Like this is a team where ownership is like, we need to make. the postseason by any means possible. They're one of those franchises that have a playoff mandate.

Is that really? I mean, like, that's what you want. You want to make the postseason, but dude, if you're making short-term decisions or keeping Harrison Barnes and passing on trade offers that get you valuable young players or picks, I'm not sure that's really in the best interest of the fans for rooting for a competitive product that can sustain success. It's definitely not in the best interest of building around your star players, your young players, your promising players, or for the people actually running the team. Because this team is going to, if they make the playoffs, you're going to get smacked.

They're going to get wallets, Chris. Making a playoffs. What are you talking about? But they have a mandate to make the playoffs. This isn't a situation. Like some teams are in situations where they're like, do what the ownership says the GMs, do what is best for the franchise. franchise. You have full power. You're running the ship. That's not the case in Sacramento. And that's where I always get uneasy when I hear about those situations for front offices and coaching staffs. When ownership is the one saying, hey, you need to do this. That's where I get concerned. And for Kings fans, rooting for a product that hasn't made the playoffs in 40 years. That's what it feels like. I don't know when it's going to get better. Well, because they don't want to break that Clippers record.

They're going to break the Donald Sterling Clippers record of playoffs not being made. It's sad. I mean, it's impossible. It's sad. I mean, that guy was actively trying to lose over and over and over again in an attempt to turn profit. This team has been trying to win. and can't do it. That's the day of this thing.

Who do they pass in the West? I mean, like, I think the top eight teams I don't see dropping out in the West right now. So that's Golden State, Phoenix, Utah, Memphis, Clippers, Lakers, Mavs, Nuggets. Wolves are at nine, Blazers are at 10. Kings are

tied with the Spurs for 11. They're a game and a half back from Minnesota, a half game back from Portland. Like, is there anything Sacramento can do to position themselves to be better than a Portland team that's likely going to build around Damien Lower, they're going to do something to try to bolster that roster. Is there anything Sacramento can do to be better than Minnesota with Kat and Edwards who's improving and Delo who's playing pretty good basketball? I know they haven't been great the last

10 games, but I mean, is there is there anything the Kings can do to to get into the playing? Any big move? Like should they go for Ben Simmons? I mean, should they go for? Should they go for? Should they go for Sabonis, Chris? Subonis to me has been an undervalued. Everybody's talking about Simmons, but Subonis is available. 29 teams should be going after Subonis. 29. Celtics got a good win last night, Tatum at 42.

But there's a little Jalen Brown buzz out there. At the beginning of the year, I asked you, could this be the last time that we see the Tatum and Brown tandem? Is this the last year that we see it? You still still, you're still sticking to your guns. I'm still sticking to my guns, man. I put it in my column on Monday.

Like Brad Stevens is in a position where change needs to happen. This is his first big test. And you could say, oh, could they break up Tatum and Brown? I still think it's too soon. I do. It's still too soon. Jaylen's 25. Tatum's 23.

It's everything else around them, Chris. It's the roster around them. It's the need for playmakers, good decision makers, guys who are consistent in their role, consistent as shooters, consistent as decision makers. And I think for Brad Stevens, that's going to be the greatest challenge. How do you shuffle everything else on this roster, Chris? That's going to be the challenge for Brad Stevens here.

Because to me, it's not, Brown and Tatum might have some qualities that clash. But those guys with the right guard, the right playmaking guard with them, they can flourish together. I was thinking about this the other day, Kevin. How come they've never just had like a regular run the offense point guard? Like it's been, they went from Kyrie to, well, really, Terry Rozier, right, and Kyrie. Then they tried the Kemba thing. And now they do the Schrooter thing. It's like, why don't they just get somebody that, like, is a pass first or at least pass even point guard that just kind of sets things up and sets the table for these guys with these fantastic wings on this team?

I don't, I don't get it. They've always had the same kind of. shoot first point guard. Chris, I mean, I think for Boston, some of this is just bad circumstances. It could work with one of those score first point guards, whether it was Kyrie or whether it was Isaiah Thomas going back to him, whether it was Campbell Walker for that matter, too. I think it's okay to have a guy who does a little bit of both, as you're saying.

And for this Boston team, also some of their young guys just haven't totally panned out either. I mean, it's just a late first round pick. but Peyton Pritchard hasn't been quite what they maybe would have hoped for so far. He hasn't played a lot this season and he has struggled when he has besides that Portland game when he really went off. So, I mean, for Boston here, that speaks to the challenge is how do you find the guy who can handle that facilitating responsibility for you and or could it still come from Jason Tatum at age 27? And that's the tough part here is Tatum is only 23. Brown is only 25, like I said. But youth isn't everything.

Contract length matters, which is why you're getting these reports out the past couple weeks about, well, what's Boston going to do? This is other teams, you know, putting the pressure, leaking stuff out, trying to shake things up in Boston because, yeah, it could actually reach a point that Boston does need to make a massive move by. splitting those two guys up. I don't believe they are at that point yet. I don't believe they will be at that point before the trade deadline unless they're getting an equally appealing young star player in return for one of them, a la Ben Simmons. Does that make total sense for Boston? Could that be their point guard? Maybe. But I just don't see that actually happening this season. I think for Boston, if they are to ever break those two up, it won't happen until some year in the future. But right now, those guys should stick together and it's about everything else on the roster.

You're an absolute no on a Ben Simmons, Jalen Brown centered deal. Is that right? Absolute no. No. I wouldn't say I'm an absolute no, but I'm definitely, I lean towards the no side because I think Jalen Brown just provides so much more to that Celtics roster. I don't think you need. Bring in Ben Simmons brings in a whole new host of fit issues with Ben Simmons. I want to see Ben Simmons fall in a situation where he's with a guy like we talked about earlier, a point guard like Darius Garland or Damian Lillard, someone who can run pick and roll for you, put Ben Simmons in the screening situations like Blake Griffin, like Draymond Green, where he can be a playmaker and a valuable piece in the half court. Boston still doesn't have that guy. If you have Tatum and pick and roll

with Simmons, they're just going to switch that screen and like Simmons is going to go back to doing nothing. You need a smaller shooting point guard off the dribble who can force defenses to blitz or hedge or even trap the opponent in the pick and roll, which is what opens things up for the screener. So Boston doesn't have that. I don't love the fit. But absolute no. I mean, it depends on what other pieces we're talking about in the deal. But I'd at all likelihood be a note of that for Boston. I'd keep Brown and Tatum and change everything else on the team. We have talked about this moment coming up, which is tomorrow over 80% of the league becomes trade eligible. It's the unofficial opening of trade season. Now, they'll have a couple of months

before the trade deadline. I'm wondering your opinion on this. You know, it feels like there has been more chatter this year. There are certainly many more teams that are and want to continue to be competitive this year and possibly bolster their roster and improve even where they are right now. and the door looks open probably for more teams than what we would have imagined at the beginning of the season, whether that means for a playoff spot, a home court advantage spot, or a play-in spot. We rarely see trades or many trades before the trade deadline comes about. Do you think this season has the possibility of being rather different? just given the circumstances of the season.

And, you know, we know that this Simmons thing is hanging out there, which is clearly a big one. There's a bunch of chatter already about the Miles Turner thing and about the, you know, the Miles Turner thing and whatever Indiana is going to do. The Bagley and Heald thing in Sacramento. Chris, that's a lot of things. Yeah, I know. I know.

So are we saying that we're not going to wait this year until February, nearly as much as we have in years past? I still think there's a chance we wait until February for a lot of this stuff, to be honest with you, Chris. I mean, like think about the names that are out there right now, December 15th. Like who are the targets? Maybe it's some smaller deals that we see, you know, a Daniel Tice, like for a backup center for a contender, a ish Smith or a Kemba Walker type of guy. Perhaps something like that. You could see a team saying,

we need another guard in our rotation. Let's go for somebody like that. Maybe Charlotte wants a wing or a big instead of an is smith coming off their bench. So, I mean, maybe we see some smaller deals. But my expectation is some of the bigger stuff is still going to wait until January or February. I went through and looked at the list of the guys that,

you know, there was a compiled list of the guys that do become trade eligible as of tomorrow. as of tomorrow and scanning through it. The only ones that I found when I ran through it, I know you just mentioned a couple of guys were Kelly Olinick. You know what I mean? Like as a guy back up big, stretch the floor, maybe give you some space.

He's playing in Detroit right now. And I think he could help somebody that could be a postseason team. Torrey Craig. Tori Craig's been on a lot of winning teams, right? And was part of that son's team last year until he got injured. He's one of those guys in Indiana. They're not going to be doing anything this year anyway. He's at least a guy that could give you some minutes.

And like I said, he's been on some good teams. And this just really wasn't much on this list. Obviously, Evan Fornier, if the Knicks could move off of that and just, all right, we made a mistake. We need to move off this. Evan Fornier is a great example of a guy that put up numbers on a rat team that nobody watched, cared about. Everybody thinks Evan Fornier's so great. Now he's played in these two big markets, Boston and New York, and everybody realizes that it's so what. And if New York could get away from that, I'm sure they wouldn't a heartbeat.

I'm kind of surprised, to be honest with you, Chris. I thought both in Boston and New York, you'd see a high. higher level of Evan 48 coming off of screens and handoffs draining threes for you contributing in a winning situation but it hasn't worked out in the way that I think I expected or a lot of people expected for him in either of these situations Boston or New York which is a shame because for years in Orlando he got better as a player I mean he got he went from a midrange guy to a more efficient three point shooter and he can still shoot threes it's just about everything else.

It's about ability to create off the dribble, the playmaking ability, the lack of defense. All what he doesn't have is what's really showed up under the spotlight in New York and Boston that nobody really cared about when he was in Orlando.

No, a lot of numbers and a lot of losing. It's a different deal when you've got to be part of winning. And I'm sure that New York, again, it's just a mistake. I don't understand,

especially, that's not a TIBS. guy. My God, is that not a tips guy? You think back and it just seems so goofy that you know who your coach is and then you built a back court with Campbell Walker and Evan Fornier. What the hell? Well, I mean, here's the thing though, Chris, I'll tell you this. You got to have contracts to trade. So when we say it's a mistake, we can say it's a mistake about the player, about giving him $20 million annually. But I don't think we can say yet that it's a mistake in terms of the the value of the contract because you've got to have contracts to deal.

And $20 million is a pretty good piece for you to get a guy making a little bit less, one of those good mid-ranging players that make $18, 19 million, but also to build up and stat contracts to get a max contract player. So you've got to have contracts to trade. And that's what to me, when I look at this next roster, they wanted to be to be better than they have been this year. They wanted to be a higher playoff seed. but you got like some deals that are easily movable.

And that does that does include Evan Fornier. They should go get involved in that buddy Bagley thing. Go let Evan Fornier put up a bunch of points in Sacramento. You probably like that a lot. They're going to be without some of their guys. You know, they're one of the other teams. We've pulled up and stat contracts to get a max contract player. So you've got to have contracts to trade.

And that's what to me, when I look at the. next roster. They wanted to be better than they have been this year. They wanted to be a higher playoff seed. But you got like some deals that are easily movable. And that does, that does include Evan Fornier. We've had games canceled.

The Bulls have been canceled. The Hornets have been ravaged by COVID. Obie is out. RJ Barrett is out. Quentin Grimes Grimes, who hit a boatload of threes against the bucks over the weekend. He's going to be

but Steph Curry is going for and inevitably will set the all-time three-point record in Madison Square Garden when those teams face off tonight. And look, I don't want this to be a COVID show. I don't like talking about it. But Kevin, I'll just say we have this situation where games are now being canceled. You've got this tonight where there's going to be no RJ, there's going to be no topping. Testing post Thanksgiving has ramped up. And with more testing, you are getting more positives. It's going to be fascinating to see what the NBA does about this.

Because I do think that if you test a bunch, a lot of these guys, they're not even feeling any symptoms, you know. And you've talked about 97, 98% of the league being vaccinated. you've got guys that don't even know they're sick, and then they test, and then they test positive for this new variant, I suppose, is what they're testing positive for. And I think one of the things is,

you know that there have been a ton of basketball players that probably have the virus, don't even know they have the virus, and they've been playing throughout the season. The difference now is they're testing for it. and this is what we know. There's been a boatload of players played this year with COVID.

Yeah, Chris, and now we have news that just dropped this morning that Taylin Horton Tucker tested positive for the Lakers. He's in the health and safety protocols and the Lakers are canceling their flight to Dallas for a Wednesday night game. I mean, with the increased testing after Thanksgiving,

they're catching stuff like this, which can help prevent outbreaks. And yet those outbreaks are still happening. I mean, that's the issue, especially with this new variant. There's some early reports that it's not quite as powerful. But it's definitely far, far, far more contagious. And it seems like that's going to be the dominant strain of coronavirus everywhere around the world in the coming weeks and months. And so for the NBA, man, I mean, this just sucks.

It all sucks, man. I really wish we didn't have to deal with this, but that's where we are as a planet right now, unfortunately. All sucks. And hopefully, hopefully you can come out on the other side or hopefully with our board. Let's let's end on a positive note, Chris. Isaiah Thomas playing in the G League showcase.

I love it. I promise, if he comes through to play against the Memphis Hustle, I'll be there. No question. One of my favorite guys to watch in person ever, the season that he had one of the greatest offensive seasons in NBA history.

I saw him that year, and he absolutely torched the nets in Memphis. And it was, it was, it was, it sounds crazy. It was really like, like, peak Iverson. And people could roll their eyes at that, but the guy averaged like 30-something points of game that year. Chris, I mean, he was just,

that was peak Iverson. Iverson like that 1617 season. It was. I mean, that was one of my funnished years watching a team ever. That team with Isaiah Thomas. That's Celtics team. 1617. It's one of the best live games I've ever seen was his 40 plus point point performance against the Wizards and the playoffs.

TD Garden was so loud. I mean, Tommy Heinz and the love he had for the little guy, as Tommy would always say. I want like that was really, that was my first year being hired. by the ringer in 2016. And I mean, like being fully honest, one of my, it was really my last year having some feelings towards the Celtics. I mean, things I wouldn't, like, I'm not, I was, wasn't even the same person I was a couple of years prior rooting for the team.

But watching a lot of Celtics games with my dad that year, I mean, we, we loved watching Isaiah Thomas just so, so, so much. Like, he was, he, like, he was definitely my dad's favorite player to watch, maybe ever for the Celtics. And I know, like, even though he only spent two and a half years with Boston, there are a lot of Celtics fans who feel the same way. He just had such an imprint on Boston in ways that, like, I don't know. I mean, I don't think there's any, any example of a guy who played two and a half years for a team and made an imprint that IT did. But he was a remarkable player. And he was very deserving of his top five positioning and MVP voting that year.

and I, I, it's so sad that he hasn't been able to have a career since then, but I'm glad we did have that year with him. Those two and a half years with Boston were really special. I hope he makes it back. I do too, man. He's got a shot still. He's got a, he's got a chance. There's, there's ability in there, but he's, he's 32 years old. He'll be 33 in February, got a long injury history, and he ends. He is a little guy. He's, he's a little guy for NBA standards. there to be another moment though you know I really would even if it only comes in spurts

like off the bench playing 17 18 minutes for game but he could if he's on a playoff team he could just have one night or he goes off that that that would be really really really special I'm rooting for him so hard to get back

yeah that would be cool Kevin it is always a pleasure thanks to our producer Jesse Lopez as always and I will talk to you on Friday looking forward to it Thank you.