The Mismatch - Thunder Trade Targets, Lauri Markkanen’s Value, Should the Cavs Reset, and Other League Observations

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

After the Bulls upset the 76ers, Verno and KOC discuss the promising development of Coby White before giving credit to James Harden and Clippers, as it seems they have finally figured it out (02:32). Verno shares what he expects from Ja Morant as he's set to make his season debut against the Pelicans (14:00). Next, the guys discuss KOC’s latest article detailing possible trades for the Thunder this season (21:24), Danny Ainge’s price tag for Lauri Markkanen (26:16), what do the Cavs do with Donovan Mitchell (34:38), Luka Doncic and Anthony Davis’s offensive seasons (41:48), as well as the Pistons' continued struggles, and Bradley Beal is injured again (49:10). You can read KOC’s article here Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Galaxy lights, Coachella, Lightning Bolt Necklaces. 2020 was the year of Scandival. On March 3rd, one cheating scandal launched a reality TV investigation that generated hundreds of conspiracy theories, thousands of podcast episodes, and millions of dollars in revenue. I'm Jody Walker, host of an American Scandival. One retrospective story told in three salacious parts. Listen, December 26th, on the Ringer Reality Feudel. feed. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me. He does every Monday night from

the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O. Obama. Kevin O. Concer, Kevin O. Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Kevin O. Burno, do you recognize something over my right shoulder right now? What do you see? Oh, it is a Rudy Gobert signed jersey that is personalized to you, Kevin O'Connor. I have. I have seen the jersey in person before. Oh my God. We saw it in person? Well, I saw a picture of it.

It saw my Instagram story. It says, from the best defender of our generation to Kevin signed Rudy Gobert between his number two and seven, 27. Rudy Gobert, it's a white Timor-Wilz jersey hanging. And let me just say, I did not. see it on your Instagram story. I saw it. The Timberwolf showed me before they sent it to you. They did really? And I did not spoil it. But I threw up everywhere when they showed me. Oh, man. You wear the socks yet? Of course not. I've sent them to Haiti. All right. Look,

there's a bunch of stuff to get to. This has been a very busy night in the NBA as we are recording Denver and Dallas are playing against each other. Luca's going crazy once again, but he's kind of by himself against the Denver Nuggets tonight. But anyways, of the games that did take place, some things that have been worth mentioning, the 76ers lost to the Bulls, and I just want to highlight two performances that we've had.

We had M.B. who went for 40, 14, and 6. It's his fourth 40-point game this month. and he's had 12 straight of 30 or more. And they had him go for 40. They had Maxie go for 29. Paul Reed had eight and no one else had more than six. And that's kind of how it added up to a loss. On the other side, Kobe White has sneaky become fantastic.

24-8, 9 assists. he's averaging 25, 7, and 6 over his last eight games. And 26 for the whole month. I mean, it extends. Yeah. And so all this talk about, you know, DeMarna Rosen and Zach Levine and what they're going to do with their future

and trade rumors, etc. Meanwhile, they've got this guy that is like really become a player this season in Kobe White, which is interesting. And that contract looks better and better. You know, that team has made a million mistakes in building out their roster. That's not one of them.

That's for sure. I saw my buddy John Hollinger tweeting about it. That's not one of their mistakes of all the things that have gone wrong and trying to build that thing out. Paying Kobe White certainly does not fall in the bad column. And for that contract, he'll be making $11 million this year,

12 million next year and then 12.9 million the season after that. And then he'll hit free agency at 26 years old. What a super bargain. I mean, this is the kind of player you're getting right now. Sure. And I think with Kobe White, like the main driving force behind this amazing offensive performance as a score is the three-point shooting. Like over this month of December, he's shooting 50% on seven catch-and-shoot threes per game

and 55% on three pull-up three-pointers per game. So it's not like he's just catch and shoot red-hot. He's red-hot, whether it's off the dribble, off the catch, off of movement, it doesn't matter. And on top of the scoring, he's playmaking. 6.4 assists to only 1.6 turnovers per game throughout the entire month. So it's not just like he's only a scorer either right now. They're putting the ball in his hands and powering him to make decisions with Zach Levine still absent at the moment.

And boy, like sometimes that just opens the door for opportunity. Opportunity is not for Kobe White. And here we are with him looking like at only 23 years old. She's only 23. Like guys take a long time to develop. It's his fifth year. But man, it looks like this is not the three point shooting is not going to be 50% sustainable. But he's always been a good shooter.

So I think the overall development is very encouraging. Some of the other games that we'll get to during the process of going through your article. and seven observations from the week. So I'm going to save a couple of them. Oklahoma City will save back. We'll also, we can say back the Pistons losing their thousand straight game. But I do want to highlight that, look, the highlight that is going around everywhere from Monday night and will continue to go viral over the course of the next 24 hours for anybody that has not seen it.

I texted you while it was going on. The hardened fourth quarter tonight. against the Pacers. Like, it really looked. You know, the Pacers play these all-star games all the time. But this really looked like an all-star game. Just four guys standing out. This was the old Houston.

It was four spread out, hardened one-on-one, dribbling the ball a thousand times, breaking somebody off, step-back jumper after step-back jumper. and he goes nuclear, 35 points, 9 assists, 12 of 16 from the field, 8 of 11 from 3. Russell Westbrook is his biggest cheerleader. He's going nuts so on the bench. The whole, you know, the starters are on the bench. He's out there with coffee and Daniel Tice and whoever. They're just four.

It's four guys. It doesn't even matter who he's out there with. He's playing one-on-one and he's winning every time. And he ends up with 21, I think it was, in the fourth. 21 points in the fourth quarter in only five minutes and 51 seconds. Absolutely nuclear. And that's going to be the headline and the hardened stats and the highlights, which are crazy. The snow angels, the yelling into the camera.

So cool, man. So good. Actually showing like some serious emotion. What the underscore here, though, is we talked about last week, like, yo, are the Clippers figuring this thing out and Kauai? We highlighted his recent stats over the course of the last couple of weeks and how unbelievable he had been. And the winning has not stopped. This is now eight straight. And at some point, we got to start taking real notice because I know.

know that, you know, they didn't have Miles Turner tonight in Indiana, but like, you don't just go in there, pummel them, and they put 151 up, and you got your starters over there celebrating on the bench for the fourth quarter, just watching Hardin play one-on-one against the Pacers. And they are super impressive right now, are the Clippers. And I think that it's a high time we all started perk it up about them as a team that has come together faster than maybe we thought guys have assimilated into their roles better than we could have imagined. And you got to give Ty Lou credit. You got to give those players credit, but they're cracking right now, Kevin.

Absolutely. I mean, it's it's magnificent to see what they've turned into so quickly right here. We talked about Kauai last week. it goes without saying that Kauai Leonard is playing at like a top five level right now. But Hardin was a top five level tonight, especially the fourth quarter where he's hitting those crazy stepbacks and everything like that. But like for him, earlier, I think it was around Thanksgiving, something like that. I tweeted out a stat how he was shooting a career low number of attempts at the rim. It was like 12% over his first 10 games of the clippers, like really low.

But he looks sluggish, he looks slow, he didn't have bursts. Since then, it's back up around 25%, which is where he's been the last couple years with the Sixers and back when he was with the net. So it's not quite prime levels getting to the basket, but he's at least back to what he was last season. And how did we talk about Hardin before this trade? I kept saying, like, top 35 to you. I think I always said top 35 for Hardin. he looks like he's back at a top 30 35 level right now and sometimes that player can tap into top 10 level like he did tonight and so for the clippers they've they have a balance moving

terence man into the starting lineup provided a lot of balance for them their starting lineup is so so good with those five out there george kawai hard and zubots man and hardin is you know back to being at least last season's james hardin and that that's uh that's the guy that they hoped to get when they traded for them. Well, and it's really interesting because we saw both versions of Hardin last year. We saw the one that assimilated into the I'm going to lead the league and assist, and I'm going to be the guy that runs the team. And he, and then we saw the one that like four out, when Embed was out in the playoffs,

four out and I'm just going to go absolutely nuclear scoring and prove to everybody that I could still do this, as we saw in the game one, that he had last year. That being said, I think it's really interesting what Doc Rivers had to say, talking to Bill Simmons, that, and these are the things that make Doc a very good guest to have, because it's been awesome on Bill's pod. It gives you an insight that you would not normally have, and he's also willing to say it, which is James, he talked about how amazing James was for them and how great he was the first part of the season

and that then he didn't make the All-Star team. It was like, I played this way, and then I was not rewarded for it. And it bothered him a lot, and it changed him, right? It's almost like, all right, I'm doing this, now I'm leading the league of assist and it didn't pay off in his mind in terms of getting the rewards that he thought he deserved for playing that kind of way they had a really good record he wasn't doing all the scoring he was leading the league and assist and it was like

he didn't get that recognition and then things changed a little bit after that and I thought that was fascinating because now we're kind of back to you know oscillating between Yes, he can do this what he needs to, but he's been a really good team basketball player for the Clippers, especially recently, and has deferred. Kauai Leonard was identified as the best player on that team by Tyron Liu. And James Hardin has played basketball, like Kauai Leonard is the best player on that team, you know? And that's all you can ask. Same with Westbrook, same with Paul. Like, they all acknowledge, like, all right.

Like there's always all of these teams, there's always a pecking order. There's always a pecking order. There's a guy that's going to be the guy on a regular basis. And then there's going to be nights for the other guys. It's going to be interesting the rest of this week. On Wednesday they have a game against the Mavs on the road. On Thursday they're on the road against the thunder. And then Saturday they have an afternoon matinee here in L.A.

Against the Celtics. So three tough games coming up to continue their win streak. currently at eight. We'll see how they do with these tough matchups. All right. Let's get through. You put out an article. Really good one, by the way,

on seven observations on all manner of things going on in the NBA. We're going to go through those one by one and talk through them. All right. So you started with Are the Thunder ready to make the leak? I watched the Thunder tonight. They played the Grizzlies in the last game before the Morant return. They smoked them. First thing that stood out.

Six and 19 for Memphis. Yep. They get a big hole to climb out of, but we'll see. They got to go pretty much on a 55 win pace to get to like 42, 43 wins. So what they've won the last two years? Yeah, but Jabaranth didn't come back midway through a year after a suspension. Did they get their other players back as well, or no? I mean, they're not getting Stephen Adams back this year.

They get Marcus Smart back. They get Luke Knard back. They get the rest of their roster back. Yeah. Good luck. All right, mark my words. Mark it down. Right now.

Okay. They will go 37 and 20 in the last 57 games. I don't think they're going to have 37 and 20. I'm saying it. No, they're not going to go 37 and 20. I'm saying it for the record so you can hear it. They'll go 37 and 20 the rest of the way. Okay.

It's not going to happen. And that will be 43 wins. I don't know where that puts it. But that's what they will do. 37 and 20. So that's like the... They will play at the rate that they have with John Moran. So that's a win rate of 64.9% of your games.

That's a win rate of 53. So they're going to play at a 53 win pace midway through the year with John Moran coming back from a suspension. It's not midway. It's 25 games into the season. Midway is... What is midway? Midway is during the season.

No, it's a quarter of a way into the season. Sure. That means there's three quarters of a season left. Towards the middle. That's what midway is. Toward the middle. We're toward the middle of the year. We're almost into January.

We're toward the middle. I mean, I don't know what you're talking about, but. Okay. I said 37 to 20. I said, they're not going to with 37. All right, how many? Call it. Well, let's go with...

It's easy to say... 31. 31. Okay, 31. So they are going to, in the last... Oh, no, no, hold on. I want to get you on record. This is going to be great.

Great. I'm going to love it. All right. So they end with 37 wins. Yeah. Oh, were six games different? Yeah, but that's a dramatic difference between being in the plan and not. Okay.

Well, they have a six point point differential right now, right? That's a 45 win. win rate that I'm giving them, which might be generous, generous compared to a 55 win rate. In the loaded Western conference, you talk about last season and all that, the West is better, this stiffer competition, there's more teams competing? I think so, yeah, especially for Memphis. Is there when the top three teams are Minnesota, Oklahoma City, and Dallas? Yeah, you saw what O'KC did to them tonight. Tell me about what O'KC did. They did it to Jacob Gildiard, you dumb ass.

Yeah. And Jaron Jackson, how'd he do? He's not an NBA player. How would Bain do? They're not NBA players. The ones that are playing or not, if you're going to put, look, John Moran will be back in the lineup tomorrow night. Sandy Aldama did not save you.

Hey, we'll talk in a week, right? We'll talk in a week. Marcus Smart is not saving you. We'll talk in a week, right? Because they got, they got, all right? So you've gotten all your jokes in. The reckoning comes tomorrow, Kevin. It starts tomorrow.

they've got a six point differential. Now, what do you think having one of the best 10 players in the NBA could do to that? John, top 10 player in the NBA? What planet are you on? You live in Memphis. What state do you live in, Chris? You live in Memphis. What planet are you on?

Of course, he's a top 10 player to you. He's not a top 10 player to anybody else in the other 49 states or countries. He would have been first team all NBA last year. if he didn't get the suspension. What the hell are you talking about? That doesn't make him top ten. Top ten. In that first team all NBA that makes you top five, you dumbass?

He needs to... What planet are you on? Dude, I think a player is coming back from a 25-game suspension, a long absence, has a lot to prove. And it's unfair to expect him to even be close to what he was last season right off the bat, which is part of the reason why I've said to you... Why? He's not... But it's still not always seamless for anybody coming back.

That's why all year I've been saying to you, there's going to be like five or six or seven wins at best when he comes back. And when he does come back, he needs to have an adjustment period. The team needs to have an adjustment period. There's no guarantee the team suddenly is on a 53 win pace. Like you think it might be at first. They might get better over the course of the year.

I just think it's unfair to expect it from Jha right away. that he's suddenly going to be top 10. I think that's crazy talk that he's immediately going to be that. And if he is, kudos to him for staying game ready, immediately being able to adjust. I think that's a bit much for expectations. I mean, he has been practicing with the team the entire time. Sure.

He's not injured. He's not coming back from anything. When has he played and not been awesome? When? I mean, we'll see that we will see. He's got some games against some weaker defenses coming up. before the schedule gets tougher. So there's a little bit of an adjustment period here.

They get New Orleans, Indiana, Atlanta, New Orleans, Denver, Clippers, Sacramento through the rest of this current year. That sounds like a brutal schedule.

Well, I mean, I'm saying some weaker defenses as an Indiana in Atlanta. Oh. And Sacramento is not a great defense either. Yeah. Well, the other three teams are you.

Chris, you know why it sounds like a brutal schedule? Because the West is freaking tough. Who? So what you just said earlier? Who is it tougher? And then I just listed New Orleans and Denver and L.A. Clippers and Pelicans.

And you're like, ooh, shaking in my boots. That sounds tough because it is tough. Look. It's very tough. We will see when this all plays out over the course of a season. The only teams who aren't tough in the West are the Blazers and the spurs and the Grizzlies. That's it. and the Grizzlies might suddenly become one of the 13 teams that is tougher,

because there's a lot of tough teams in the West. We're both on record. This will be fun. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandul, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get $150 and bonus bets with any winning $5 money line bet. That's $150 if your team wins. So if you've been thinking about joining Fandul, there's no better time to join. The app is easy to use and there's a wide range of ways to bet, including quick bets,

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See terms at sportsbook.fandul.com. you wrote about Oklahoma City. That's how we started this. Chet is awesome. Absolutely awesome. He now has 15 blocks in the last two games. 15. He had 17, 6, and 7 tonight.

Obviously, like none of them had to play the fourth quarter. They just destroyed Memphis. And so Gildes Alexander had a massive game. But Chet is the one that really stands out to me because he's one of the guys that you highlighted in your article as, you know, kind of figuring out where are they in their process? And is this cash in time because they've got this opportunity that, yes, while they're a young team, they also could improve this team now with the assets that they have and become something even greater than what they currently exist as.

And Holmgren, being so good, so fast, and so defensively reliable has been something that has changed them a great deal. Like they were a 500 or a little below team last year. Now they stand with the second best record in the Western Conference. And I think, you know, you wrote 15 first round picks, 22 second round picks. holy mother. I know. Crazy, huh? 15 first round

picked. Good night. And then they've got some assets as well that they could move. And so what do you think? Do you think that this is a pull the trigger, add to this one? Or would you

kind of stay on the timeline of you know, yes, this team will become a playoff team. Yes, it will take its lumps, right? Every team catches some playoff scars before they reach their eventual destiny. And so is it better to go and try to bolster this now and do it this season? Or do you think that you should just be patient with it?

Because you're already so good so fast. I think you should be reactive if you're Sam Presti with all those pictures sitting on. because on one hand, you talk about the timeline. What is the timeline? The timeline right now is a team that has one of the best offensive forces in the league in Chey Gildos Alexander, who is a legitimate top five, you know, MVP candidate at the moment, an all-N-B-A guy for another season in a row. And then you have Chad Holmgren, who is one of the league's best defensive players in the league.

He already is, as a rookie. He already is at that level. You also have one of the team's best depth charts. You have Jalen Williams at the top of that. He can score 20 plus points any night. He can distribute. You have shooters like Isaiah Joe. You have lockdown defenders like Blue Door.

You have so many different types of players in that team who play basketball at a high level, all coached by one of the best in the league and Mark Dagnall. So you have the formula for a very good playoff team. You're just young. So that's where the timeline is in terms of age. However, I don't think many young teams are usually this good, this soon with a player leading them so great in SGA on offense and homegrown on defense. So if the right deal or deals become available for Presti to pull the trigger, I think he should be aggressive in pursuing them.

And in my article in the ringer, the two players that I highlighted would kind of address the two things that I think that they can improve on. The Thunder don't really need anything at all. They have, they check all the boxes of what you need. It's just a matter of readiness and the skill level being developed. I think what they need is an upgrade over their back. kept center, Jalen Williams. We saw what they did the other night against Yokic, with Williams defending Yokch part of the night, Holmgren helping off ball. They had two bigs swarming at Yokch, helping on Gordon driving to the basket, blocking his shots. Holmgren was unbelievable in that game. If you can upgrade from Williams, who's only six foot

nine to say like a Wendell Carter from Orlando who's been out, the magic have been very, very good without him, maybe if you can go a little bit over the top, an offer that the magic can't refuse. You upgrade there with a better center, a better defender, one of the league's better Yokic defenders, a three-point shooter, too, a playmaking hub. And then I think you could also upgrade from Josh Giddy. Giddy, he's a very good playmaker. He has feel for the game, but that's redundant with everything else you have on that roster with SGA, with the other J-Lan Williams, J-dub, Chet Holmgren, too. So if you can replace giddy with a guy who doesn't need touches to produce, like a Lowry Markinen-esque player,

who Jake Fisher said in a Yahoo article, the jazz, are indicating that they're at least listening that seems to be the case there. I've heard that if they were to make a deal, they'd want something comparable to what they got from Mitchell and Gobert. If you went over the top and if you dealt two first for Carter and five first or four first or three first and giddy, whatever the deal is to get jazz, to get him from the jazz, Suddenly, your team's top eight is maybe just as great as anybody's in the league. And it fills your needs.

It further enhances your roster. And it keeps you young, too. So you're able to compete even harder now for a championship, but still maintain that flexibility moving forward into the future with the guys that you decide you want to keep. So I think they should be aggressive at the right guys become available. It's only a matter of if they do. Okay. first thing is

there's zero percent chance if I'm Orlando I'd move Carter. No way. Even though they've played very well without them? I don't care. Bencaro's been awesome. I know, but I'm trying to be even better. I agree.

And I would not deal with it either. I'm trying to be even better. I wouldn't. Yeah, they've been good, but like, we're not talking about like, their ceiling becomes better. They've done the pick thing forever. But, but Chris, like,

they've, they've really excelled without him. And is he an untouchable? No, he's not an untouchable player. You're willing to trade Wendell Carter if a team makes an offer that's strong enough. I love Wendell Carter.

I've loved Wendell Carter since pre-draft. I really love the player he's become, but he's not untouchable. Yeah, but I'm trying to make the playoffs and be able to make a dent. And then you can flip those picks to get that player who fits you at a really, really, you know, in a great way.

I think they'd be even better. better if Carter was playing. I don't think that they're winning because he's out. No, no, I'm not saying. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that they're winning because he's out at all. I'm saying that they're playing extremely well without him. And all I'm saying is that there's possibly ways to flip that asset to a team that has enough picks to overpay a little bit,

giving you even more draft capital in order to get a guy who propels you further. That's my logic from the Orlando side of things. Do I want to trade Carter? No, I want to see him play with Bencaro and Wagner and all those guys. No, I want to see him with them. But there is a price I'd be willing to take a deal. And then on the marketing thing, that's a ridiculous ask. I know that that's Danny Aange and I know that you're reporting just what you've heard.

But come on. Yeah, it's just like the impression from people around the league. Yeah, I know. Five-ish. Five-ish. Who do you think he is? OG and an Obie. I mean, I don't know.

There's a bunch of those Utah guys, you know, and we've texted about this on the side. I'd love, like, Kyle's sex has been on losing teams this whole career. I would love to see him with a winner and think he could contribute to a winner.

There's reports that Jordan Clarkson is also available. That's another guy. that's out there. Like they weirdly have, like, whether it's Clarkson, Olinic, Sexton, Markening, like, they got a bunch of guys that I think could help winning teams. No doubt about it. Like, really?

Like, you got a bunch of guys that would be rotation players on good teams. Yeah. And so, look, if you're going into this rebuild, I do think, like, whatever the final hall will be. and it started with Mitchell and Gobert and then it went to Conley and now it will extend even further. But you would think that this will be the sell-off year for those Utah guys and that those guys, you know, that there will be an asking price for them. But I actually think that they've done a reasonable job of building up the value of those guys.

And I do think that I think those guys are assets. the good part for them is that you can get stuff back for those guys. I think they can all, whether you package them together or move them separately, in some cases, that you're going to be able to get assets back for them and help with your rebuild. Anyways, the marketing thing seems a little high for me. But if you're OKC though, you have all of these picks. You have so many picks. Fifteen.

I'm with your first. You can deal five of those and still have ten. But the question is, is marketing in the guy that you want to cash those in for because everything I just said about how you want to, what he would offer for value, a guy who doesn't need touches, he'd be three-point shooter coming off a movement, dribble handoffs, cut into the basket, all that stuff within their motion. Two-man game with SGA and Jaylon Williams. etc, etc, right?

You can play big jumbo lineups with him and Chet and maybe if you did get a Carter or even with the existing Jail Williams you can play so many flexible lineups but is he the guy that you'd want to give up all those picks for? That's where I

have my hesitations with the Lowry side of it. Wendell Carter, I'd be going after Wendell Carter. I think Carter's perfect for what their needs are. But Lari I'm a little split on. Yeah, they're going to have to be able rebound better when it comes to playoff time. That's where they'll get punished.

That's where they'll get punished. I mean, the rebounding numbers are bad. They're so good at so many things. Good offense, good defense. I'm just saying when it becomes a more slow down game in the playoffs and you're facing some of these teams that have real, real size, that's where they're going to, they need some more muscle. They need some more muscle, like some way somehow.

And all I'm saying is Mark and it doesn't feel. that bill. He does make them better. There's no way around that. And he would make anybody better. But in terms of what I'm looking for, I'm trying to find, I'm trying to find some muscle. You know, and like you were saying, the Jalen Williams thing, the other

Jalen Williams, right? Upgrade that. Somebody next to Chet because that bit makes Chet even more devastating. If he could do the float around thing even more. Is there a fit that you really, really love for marketing? we're like that team should go for him.

Besides Utah, just keeping him, obviously. You know, I thought when you threw out the heat, I thought that was an interesting one. Yeah, I like that one too.

You know, kind of playing in between Bam and, Bam and Jimmy. I know. Because think about like how good Kevin Love has been, even his diminished state.

Imagine Laurie marketing in the Kevin Love role. That's kind of crazy. It's seriously like Kevin loved 15 years ago. Yeah, minus the post-ups. Yeah, minus the post-ups. Maybe like end of Minnesota, beginning at Cleveland, Kevin Love, that guy.

Yeah, right. Yeah, that's like a crazy good fit with him and bam in the front court with like Hame Haquez, the size you could have in the front court with Butler. And I don't know, man, like that, that's a really, really intriguing fit from Miami. If they took the picks that they were going to give for Dame, got marketing or even not as many picks, because, I mean, we'll see what the price ends up being. Miami's interesting.

Also, he's even, you know, he gets treated nightly like the best player on the jazz. Oh, yeah. What if he's the ancillary part? I mean, oh, my God. That could be tough. You could run two-man game stuff between him and bam. For sure. Either of those guys could run pick and roll with the other screening.

Like, that would be really fun if he went to Miami. All right. Next one that you wrote about on the Ringer article, which people can read all the words if they want to, was about Lori. And so we already touched on that. The next one was about the calves and whether their injuries would lead to a reset. So you and I talked last week and I said,

hey, I really like this offer sheet thing that's on the ringer. I perked up when there was the case made for moving Donovan Mitchell. That, you know, before it gets time for I want out of here, before it gets time for, here are my desired destinations, you know, why don't you go ahead and get the maximum amount of value? Because we see these things drag on and then we see demands getting made and we see reports out there. And then it becomes harder and you lose more leverage. Whereas now under wraps, you would have maximum leverage right now if you're moving him.

before it becomes a media circus. And that's if you don't think he's going to be there long term. But one of the case that I made was, all right, look, he doesn't fit the timeline. You've got Garland, young, awesome. You've got Mobley, young, hopefully becomes even a better version of himself. You figure out what you're doing with Allen. You figure out what you're doing with Mitchell. Obviously, the Struis thing has been fine as a free agent.

and that, yeah, I actually think that you don't have to get way worse. You could really, you could get players and picks as return that actually might make you better because they need more good players. That's what they need the most. And they ended up winning their game in overtime tonight against Houston. 37 for Mitchell, crazy shots. Yeah, and he was great. But you wrote about how they've got this broken jaw with Garland, they've got this knee surgery with Mowgli, and so is now maybe the time that, you know, even if you weren't necessarily considering that, that now you really do because this season, which has already been a roughly 500 basketball season that doesn't appear to be, they have to give you very liberal reason to believe that they compete on the highest level when it comes.

to the Easter Conference playoffs, that maybe now is when you could strike and just go ahead. And it's not a full reset. It's just a soft reset, right? Sure. I mean, I think that would be the philosophy behind it, where you're, as I wrote in the article, you're kind of recalibrating your timeline to adjust with Mobley and Garland being still in their young 20s. Like, you get Mitchell hoping to accelerate things, but Mobley hasn't quite come along yet, which is the big reason for, I think, them even being in this situation. Mowbly is still a stellar defensive player, but offensively, he hasn't hit yet. And I think that there's two ways to look at that. A, well, you recalibrate and you try to

time it for when Mowbly is ready to pop offensively. But B, you could also look at what you see now from him and say, well, maybe it's time to readjust what our expectations are for him as a player because this season, 19 mid-range jumpers attempted. He's made only 37% of them. He's attempted only 10-3-point shots, maybe only two of them. So he has not developed a perimeter game on offense, but he's also not developed the ability to create shots for himself. He's 8 of 28 on post-ups and isolations combined.

He's 34% on shots in the paint outside of the restricted area, which is a lot of, you know, floaters out of rolls to the rim, turn around jumpers off a switch screen. little in-between shots like that, leaning layups and whatnot. He hasn't developed touch outside of the restricted area in his entire career. And that's a severe limitation when you're pairing him with Jared Allen. But you need to pair Evan Mobley with a bigger guy like Allen, a guy who's going to handle those matchups. Because Mobley's lean, he's more of that Romer on defense. So I think with Mobley, the question needs to at least be asked for Cleveland, where are we with Evan Mobley?

or is he the guy that we believe in as the future face of our franchise? And does that mean it's better for us to trade Donovan Mitchell? Or does it mean it's actually better for us to potentially look in a different direction to readjust this roster? Because the mix right now is not going to ever win a championship. It's just not. It's not. I would build out around Garland and Mowgli.

And, you know, we've talked about some of those teams that maybe a desire to possibly go back to the northeast where he's from. And Brooklyn would seem like a very good pairing, right? And then you've got Brooklyn and they've got- Picks for him. And they've got Bridges and Mitchell. And not only can you get picks, you could also get some of those wing guys, right,

that are assets. They got good players, right? So if you go and you grab Doreen Phenney Smith, and you grab, like, some of those guys from that team, you know, you throw a package together that's got picks and, just good basketball players and get a bunch of them, right?

I want Dory Fiddy Smith and Cam Thomas and, you know what I mean? Throw together four or five of those, you know, three or three of those guys and then a package of picks. And now all of a sudden, I've gotten some picks, which I can use as an asset to either exercise the picks or I can use those and flip those for what I want. And I've added three or four more good players to my roster in the, meantime, you want to find one of those teams that they don't have the star power, but they do have at least enough good basketball players. Because I would look at it and I think Garland's going to be a star. I do. And the Mobley thing, I, you know, we give up on young guys or criticize young guys so much. I know. It's just, it's just an assessment of where he is today.

I know. I think he'll be a radically different player, 25. And I still think, He's awesome. You know. But wouldn't you like to see some more progress at this point? I would. I would, but I'd build out around Garland and Mowbril. I mean,

it's year three. It's year three and the three-pointer has not gotten any better. The Midranger has not getting any better. And the weirdest thing about him is it looks good when he shoots it. He doesn't have some kind of, he doesn't have some kind of like disgusting motion or something. Like, it's not. It looks pretty smooth.

And that's where I worry. Is it just something in the hands where he just doesn't have the touch? He's a 68% career free throw shooter as well. He's always been a low, below average free throw shooter. Maybe he just doesn't have the touch in his fingers like some of the gifted shooters do. Maybe he shoots at the wrong hand, Kev. Maybe they'll trade Mitchell for a guy who does. Your next part of your column was about Luca.

and with that we're going to tell you this next segment is being brought to you by Google Pixel, the only phone engineered by Google and the official fan phone of the NBA and WNBA. With All-Star features, Pixel 8 Pro has all the fun tools fans can actually rally around, like audio magic eraser. It lets you cut out the background noise so you can capture the sound of every swish dish and slam, loud and clear. So with that, we've got to talk about somebody who's built different. Luka Dajic, that is who you talked about in your article.

He is certainly built different. The thing that stood out to be the most was this stat that you had found, this note about his unassisted basket in the restricted area, and where it compared to players that I honestly would have thought had a much higher rate of scoring. And Luca would not even have been close to what I would have told you for Janus or M-Bed or maybe even Gilders-Alexander,

I think who's leading like in points in the paint. But you had this unassisted shot to the restricted area and the Luca stat associated with it, which blew my mind. Yeah, Luca is shooting 82% in the restricted area, in the half court, unassisted. So shots he's created at the rim on his own against the set defense. That is number one in the NBA of the players that have taken the 100 most shots.

It's higher than Yannas, higher than LeBron, higher than absolutely anybody you can name in the league because it's number one. I'd be willing to bet it's one of the greatest marks of all time. Definitely in recent years, it's definitely close to the time. It's crazy that Luca it's 6 foot 8, 6 foot 9 Not like an elite vertical athlete But he has elite footwork and feel and strength And quickness and tight spaces

And his touch near the rim just makes him Really built different in the paint With his scoring ability Yeah, he has 16, 35 rebound 5 assist games So 30 points, 5 rebounds five assists. He's averaging 33, eight, and nine.

He's been absolutely unbelievable. And in fact, tonight, I don't know if he ended with those stats. He was close to those stats a little bit earlier and hung with the nuggets about as long as they could. He had 38, 11, and 8. God. And they're going to lose by 30.

Maybe 40. Yeah. It's closer to 40 at this point, I think. I mean, he hung with them for a long time that I told you at the beginning of this pod. he's kind of going crazy and he's there by himself. Well, they finally just blew the doors off in Denver. And so, yeah, they're going to run away with that victory. But Luca, again, with these freaky stats.

For fans who want an experience that's truly built different, you've got to go get the new Pixel 8 or the Pixel 8 pro. Learn more about the official fan phone of the NBA at Google store.com forward slash. pixel NBA. Audio magic eraser requires Google Photos app may not work with all audio elements.

Chris, I'm going to have to watch that Nuggets Maverick game after we record or sometime tomorrow because I'm fascinated by the fact that they've smoked the Mavericks with Yokic has eight points on eight shots, nine rebounds, seven assists. It was a pedestrian

stat line for Yokich, Murray with 22, Gordon with 21. But then you got Zeke Nassie. with 14, Strother with 12, Reggie Jackson with 18. I didn't watch any of this game.

We've been recording. I was watching other ones earlier when that game was just beginning, but that's a, Michael Porter, only eight points as well. Weird, weird scores,

box score for the Denver side of things there. So I look forward to seeing what exactly transpired in that game. Yeah, and for anybody that was tuned in, maybe it's just, maybe they were just, uh,

maybe they were just so distracted by the fact that, all these, there's the numbers on the court, there's numbers on the jersey, this whole 5, 280 thing that they've got going in Denver. I guess it's just a reference to the altitude, right? 5, 280, but they've got it like, instead of Denver or Nuggets, they just say 5, 280 on their jerseys, and then they got 5,280 at like half court and whatever. It's just all so strange.

But maybe they're thrown off by it, I don't know. Or maybe they just don't have enough players. the lively thing hurts them too. Yeah. You know. And I read today that he was, at least he's off crutches. And they say he's like in a boot. So hopefully that's so good to share, man.

Right. Hopefully he goes back soon. No, they hit on that pick, I think, to say the least. All right. Next one that you talked about was Anthony Davis. And back to the basket, Anthony Davis or post up. Anthony Davis, this is like a throwback. to some of the good Pelicans numbers, in fact, that you, that you found.

Yeah, this, he's posting a career high from the post up, post right now, scoring 1.2 points per post up. That's his career high. And I think for AD doing this right now, it is a trend worth watching where midway through the season, it's still early. What a liberal use of midway. Remember what Darwin Ham said he was going to take eight threes a game?

I know, I know. But, you know, it's a trend worth monitoring. Does AD maintain this elite level of efficiency, or does he kind of head back to his career averages at some point? AD will bully you if you're small. If you don't have a big guy or you don't have a tough guy, he turns into a different guy. and I think that there's a lot of the league

that doesn't have somebody that can deal with his size and strength he's become that type of player because he was much more slender back in the day you know you even go look at some of those old New Orleans photos I mean this looks like a full grown ass man compared to that kid that was playing in New Orleans yeah and so he's got some of some of the old man's stuff going you know, just mature game, strong.

And he like, you see he gets sometimes this level of intensity, this level of confidence where he was the guy getting tomato chested. And now he does the tomato chesting. He plays a lot stronger than he used to. He's the bully more so than the guy that gets bullied. And I think that's part of, you know, part of getting older. And he's got, you know, the veteran in the game now. The next one, Boyin, if I ever wondered if an NBA player reads Ringer articles.

Maybe they do. I mean, you literally just altered Kate Cunningham's career because you write this thing about, I don't know about Kate Cunningham, maybe Cicke Cunningham. Like, you know, can we at least see something with Cates? And then he drops 43. career high. Did we see something? Yeah, we saw something tonight.

But what I wrote in the article was. Can we just see something with Kate got again? And literally tonight, he's 4-3. Yeah, I wrote, I wrote, Kate has only four games shooting over 50% from the field of the season. That is now five games. He hasn't shown he can drain threes off the catch

or off the dribble. He's also one of the league's least efficient high-volume players improving this team's space. would help, yada, yada, but he's also going to show that he can do this in tough circumstances. I raised a question within the article, and I ask you this question here, Chris.

Yes, he is not performing up to the level that you hope for as a Pistons fan because of bad circumstances with a lack of spacing and all that. But I asked the question in the article, well, if he's doing this now in the regular season, what happens during the playoffs, even if he has a great supporting cast when the defense, is fully prepared and they are helping off the weakest shooter and they are clogging the paint. Can he be an effective shooter?

I think tonight he provided an answer of what I'm looking for and that's the dude is splashing mid-range jumpers off the dribble. He's banging threes. He's showing that he can produce at a high level even if he doesn't have open driving lanes to get to the rim, which is where he's best. So I think he showed the formula tonight. Let's just see it more consistently. day is promising at least.

Well, and also, so you got to remember, Kevin, so many of the best guards in the league now were guys that had that question. Gildes Alexander had that question. Fox. Yeah, SGA and Fox, which might be two, you're right, those are two of the best in the league right now. Both of those had that question.

And you know what was different besides the fact, of course, they're playing Atlanta, who is ridiculous defensively. All right, let's set that aside. Ridiculous in a crappy way. Did somebody lock Monty Williams in his hotel room or something? Because I have been a Cade apologist because I think this has literally been the most disgusting, worst situation I can remember.

Maybe since I've been covering the NBA. You're never going to believe this. He played his five best players as a starting lineup tonight. That's why I wondered, did the guy get locked in his hotel room? Kate Cunningham, Jaden, Ivy, Assure Thompson, Bogdanovich, and Marvin Bagley. And they ran it out there. Unbelievable. You're just throwing Marvin Bagley in there, but that's okay.

Go look at his offensive rating this year. He's one of their better players. Their team sucks. Offensive rating is an individual staff, but a team is not an individual. Okay. Do you think Marvin Bagley? All right, Duren wasn't available. Duren is not available yet.

He's not available. Do you think he's better? Neither is killing it. Oh, my God. Now I know why they played well. I mean, the guy was doing literally everything to not land on. And the most egregious has been the lack of Cunningham and Ivy. Cunningham, Ivy and a sewer like this is all, like again, swap bagley out and you've got Duren in there.

That is a fun, young. lineup. Cade Ivy Asur Bogdanovich is the veteran guy that spaced it out and Duren

and then just let them take their lumps let them roll and let them develop and then you know you got some vets that come off the bench

Alec Berks Bagley you want to get sasser some minutes um whoever Kevin Knox when do they win again

they have Utah and then Brooklyn twice. Do they win one of these next three games, you think? Yes. You think so? Yeah. Oh. Boy, they better.

They better win one of these. I mean, on this road trip, they came close a couple of times. I know. I mean, obviously, not the Milwaukee game, but they have not come close. I'm sorry. I apologize. They haven't come close. This was the close one.

Their closest was like nine or something like that. Eight to the Indiana, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that's close by their standards. And that was a week ago, yeah. But yeah, they got to win one of these three. They got to.

Utah. They might be able to get Utah. Yeah, maybe. Right. It'll be a back-to-back for Utah. They have Cleveland on the road on Wednesday night. So that's the game. Wednesday night against Utah.

But then Brooklyn also has a back-to-back Friday, Saturday. They have Denver at home on Friday and Saturday, Detroit at home. So one of those two games. You're facing a team on the second item of a back-to-back. If you don't win one of those two, oh, man. It's 24 losses in a row right now. Bam. And they're not even like, they're not like trying to lose.

It's not like they're just playing all their, well, I don't know. They stink. Oh, they stink. Nobody's trying to lose that much. You might be trying to lose, like, you're experimenting and you're willing to throw out some younger guys and all that. But nobody's trying to be two and 25 bad. I will say this on Kate's behalf. It's his second season, truly, because he didn't, you know, what, he played 12 last year.

The guys played roughly 100 games. He's only played 100 NBA games. and he's average over 20 points in him. Yeah, I put that, I put that first sentence in my article. He's played a hundred and two years. You shit on him. Let's see something. And then the guy went out and scored 40 something.

Yeah, because, Kevin O'Connor. I would not want to see something. It's completely fair. Well, he showed you something. Now you can shut up. He's Kate Cunningham, the goat. Yeah.

He's played a hundred games. And he's just a kid still. I feel bad for him. Like, legitimately bad. We talk about situation and fit. Like I said, he deserves some blame too, though. You can feel bad,

but also, like, he needs to have more nights like tonight. This is the first one. Killian Hayes is poison ass away from him. All right. Soon as Killian didn't play, look what happened. I hope this. I hope, like, a good young team trades for Killian.

That's my hope. Like they did Frank Neil Aquina? Yeah, give him a chance. Where's he? They can go play to together. That'd be a hell of a backcourt. Frankie smokes. They'll probably get second in the French League. All right. Last one, the sons.

You, dick. Dick. Last one, the sons. This is going poorly, Kevin. This is going poorly. Brad Beal comes back. Brad Beal goes out. I mean, and here's the deal.

This is the way I look at it. Like even if he came back in like two weeks or whatever they're saying, you know, he'll be out longer than that. But even if he did, even if they played all the game and they had them all healthy, that's less than 50 games they'd have together. To be ready to be like a team that's, you know, trying to win a title. And you kind of talked about how there ain't really much to do here

because they don't really have the assets and they don't have the players to go and improve. It's kind of you got what you got with that roster right now. And you need it all to be healthy. And even if it all, even if Beal comes back, what are the chances that Booker and Durant don't miss any time the rest of the way? And it's like, we're going to look at it. look up and they're going to have a seriously low amount of minutes playing together.

And, you know, that's the one thing I will say about the Clipper thing, that that coming together, they played a lot of minutes together. Like, those guys have all, they haven't been load managing and they've been able to play in games together. And it's like, we're, we're like less than 100 minutes on this stuff. with these three guys on the court together. 24. Oh, my God.

That's the total? Half of basketball. Holy macle. That's crazy. And I think for Phoenix, like you said, what are your ways to get better? You got five future second round draft picks and no young players that are of significant value on your roster. So, I mean, like, you got what you got, unless there's, there's, there's, buyout guys coming at some point, but even those guys aren't necessarily ever saviors.

So, I mean, you got what you got. I look forward to seeing how they look with Beal out there too because they look really good with Booker. They look really good with Booker and KD. But they need that third guy. Man, and just throwing this stuff together, you know, the new owner thing and throwing guys together. It's like, boy, the results have been bad. that's why when you were talking about even earlier about the whole like just you know move off all you know trade a bunch of picks it's like man doesn't feel like the team that's unloaded a bunch of picks that has hurt their future

because what happens is these owners just get so excited about it they dump the money in and then it doesn't work out and then they look up and now it's like okay we're doing a reset but we've got no friggin picks for the reset that. So it has to work out. And look, we're not burying this, but man, this is a nightmare start for this. Nightmare. At best, you're going to get what? 30, 40 games playing together? That's not a lot. You're just not in enough situations together. You're not in enough scenarios together. You're not, I mean, especially when you've got a bunch of teams that have a lot, a lot of experience as units together. Look up and down that Western conference. There's a bunch of those teams that have got a lot of minutes, regular season minutes, and playoff minutes together.

Well, I mean, the Nets with Katie, Kyrie, and Hardin didn't play a lot together either. and then they were right there with the bucks. They had a shot. So Phoenix has enough firepower that they can feel like they can compete in a series. But we'll see. For them, I'm kind of like in a moment where I'm putting them on the shelf, waiting until Beals back for a full evaluation.

But injuries are part of the concern ahead of the season. They're still part of the concern now. This might just be who they are, a team of unfulfilled upside. A couple rapid fire things. Dremont, we got at least some, clarity where it's at least three weeks that he's going to be out. It's a lot of games.

That's a lot of games. A lot. A lot. And that's going to be very difficult for the Warriors to hold down the fort while he is gone and not fall back deeply behind a lot of teams. And unbelievably, Clay's been good recently. at his best three games stretching forever. He had like 30 and 24 and 28 and he's knocking down threes.

But man, they are in a bad way without, without Dremont for an extended amount of time. But that's a long time. But like I said to you last week, we saw it against Portland the other night. Pods coming up big game winning charge taken, multiple big plays down the stretch by him. Trace Jackson Davis getting heavy minutes in that game, really flourishing off the bench for the Warriors. I said it to you last week that there's silver linings here where their young guys getting opportunity.

And so it could, it couldn't end up being a blessing in disguise. That's all I've said before. And I think after winning two in a row here, I feel that way again with some of the stuff we've seen from their youth. Well, the most important part of your soliloquy was against Portland. Yeah, of course. It was against Portland.

regardless of the opponent, they also did it against the Nets too. And yes, it's just the Nets, just the Nets, a 500 team. But the fact is that your young guys are performing in these moments and in these games. And that's all I'm saying is those guys getting opportunity can show to the warriors that they're either keepers and guys worthy of regular minutes and then you flip others. Or it shows to the 29 other teams, oh, we want this guy on our team. let's go out and get them. And then the Warriors can then flip that player for something of greater value that helps them

in the short term. So I just think for the Warriors that there is, there are benefits to this time without Dreamlong Green that could manifest over the next three or so weeks. Would you like Marketing in there? Oh, very much. Yeah. I think would you move.

Would you, if Danny says, I want Moody and Cominga. Oh, yeah. Not a doubt. Not even worried about it. Yes, sir. please. How many first do you want with that too? You'd give up. You'd give up.

Because I mean, boy, probably want Paul and make the contract stuff work, right? So you get Paul, you get Camagra. You know, actually,

you don't, you wouldn't have to give up Paul. Lowry's only at $17 million. So you could do it with smaller salaries on, on your team. So like, Lowry at 17, let's just figure this out real quick.

Lowry at 17 million going to the warrior. is Cominga is at six. Moody is at four. So you need to add a little bit more money than that. Gary Payton, I don't know if you'd be willing to give him up, Kvon Looney. Maybe you do end up giving Chris Paul instead,

and then you take somebody else back with Larry Marketer. Maybe it's like Colin Sexton or Olenic, yeah, somebody like that. Oh, well, they're ready to get rid of John Collins, too. Yeah, maybe something, I mean, regardless of the combo, but something like Chris Paul, Moses Moody, Jonathan Cominga, and picks for Lowry Marketing and plus Sexton or Olinic,

you know, whoever the player is or John Collins. Collins would be a little bit tougher financially, but something like that, that kind of makes some sense for both sides. And you get those good young players you were talking about, like they kind of fit a rebuild timeline. Oh, yeah, for sure. Because they're all under 25. Yeah, and then you give up picks too in the deal if you're, if you're, if,

you're the horrors. And you throw them with Kianti George and then whoever, and Kessler and whoever you draft and. 100%. Yeah. If it's, I think that'd be a pretty good deal. That might actually be a cash in time with your young guys if you're Golden State. Like, I mean, again, you've got what? A couple of Curry Thompson, Draymond years. I mean, like, this is title or bust right now.

Sure. Exactly. And I think, you know, Sexton would provide, because Chris Paul is solid of a playmaker. he always has been and always will be. He's amazing. He's the point God. The scoring has fallen off a cliff. And I think you need more scoring off the bench. And scoring like him and pods playing together.

Let's say it were Sexton, that'd be pretty exciting. Sexton and pods off the bench together, that'd be pretty cool. And then with Lurry, space on the floor, doing two-man game stuff with Steph, like, I don't know. That might be the fix that they need. That actually would be something I would be super interested in if I was done leaving. Maybe we just found the trade. Two first round draft picks,

Kaminga, Moody, Chris Paul for Colin Sexton and Lowry Marketing. Calling in. Who says no? I think Utah says no and they want more. Yeah, especially if it's five frigging picks that you're talking about or whatever. But I don't hate that. I think they'd want more. I don't hate it.

All right. It's going to be a fun week. There's a bunch more that's going on throughout this week. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. I'm Kevin. I'll talk to you later this week. Have a good week. Must be 21 plus in President Select States.

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