The Mismatch - Two Sides of New York Basketball, Whether Simons Gives the Blazers a Chance, and the Mavs' Future With Rob Mahoney | The Void

Episode Date: February 17, 2022

Welcome to ‘The Void,’ where Kevin O’Connor brings you deep inside the NBA with the people who know it best. Today, KOC is joined by The Ringer's own Rob Mahoney. They begin by discussing the Knicks blowing a 28-point lead to the Nets (01:07). Both agree that the Nets are a more complete team after trading away James Harden (06:59). Anfernee Simons has the Blazers rolling, but just how valuable are these wins for a franchise that was looking to tank (12:37)? Next, they discuss how the Clippers have been able to remain competitive without Kawhi Leonard and Paul George (23:11). Rob expands on his latest article, in which he detailed the direction the Mavs are moving toward without Kristaps Porzingis (26:48). Also, Nikola Jokic’s quiet leadership with the Nuggets (32:25) and DeMar DeRozan’s stellar season with the Bulls (39:35). Lastly, they talk about Anthony Davis’s latest injury and whether Russell Westbrook is finally starting to understand his role with the Lakers (47:16). Host: Kevin O'Connor Guest: Rob Mahoney Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Rob Mahoney from Theringer.com. You can read them over there. You can listen to him on group chat. on the ringer NBA show. Rob, what's going on? I'm doing great. Ready to talk some ball with you. Me too, man. Yeah, we parted last week. Me, Hugh, Bill Simmons, Jake Kyle, man, was. I mean, Chris Ryan, we had everybody on trade deadline night.

And the week since, we've had some really good basketball games. I thought last night I was at the Lakers Jazz game. So I didn't see some of these games live. The game that I rewatched a lot of this morning was the Knicks. The Nets beat the NICs 11 to 11. a 28 point comeback. And I didn't actually see that Stephen A. Smith rant that went viral on social media where he says,

the New York Knicks are a national disgrace. They're horrible. They're trash. I didn't actually listen to it until I got home last night. And you know what, man, Rob? He's right. He's right, isn't he? I mean, what could you possibly refute in that? They're now 3 and 13 in their last 16 games. My favorite part of the rant, though, was there was a moment

where it looked like he might break, where it was like he was too in on his own joke for a minute, but then he locked in and finished it out strong. It was an incredible virtuosic performance from Stephen A. You got to give it to him. Yeah, he is an absolute artist. I respect Stephen A. Smith. And he said something in there, Rob,

like lost amongst this horrible night for the Knicks. They blow this lead to the Nets. He said something in there. He said, this line, Tibbs, we're hearing the New York Nick's as an organization are not very fond of him these days. He might be out. Just one little line in there. And I think a lot of the times with like, you know, the first take type, Skip Bayless, Stephen A, Nick Wright, people think, oh, they're just hot take artists. But like, these guys know stuff sometimes. And Steve A. Smith has been a journalist for decades now. And I've heard similar

things, Rob, since before the trade deadline, that there's friction within the Knicks organization with Tibbs, especially his handling of playing some of the young guys, particularly Cam Reddish. You give him a first round pick for him. He's getting under 15 minutes a night, getting some DNPs. For the Knicks, I mean, it's just, we'll see how that develops and what ends up happening with Tibbs, but it's wild to me that one year ago, like Stephen A said this himself in his rant, he's like saying things are changing, the effort, the hard, like the Knicks are back. One year, so much can change. What went wrong here and was last year, was last year an outlier season or is there anything

that we've seen this year from New York that would suggest that, okay, this is just a blip. They're still trending upwards. Let's not overreact to what's going down right now. I'm probably in the camp that thinks last year was more of the blip, was more of the outlier. And some of it is, you know, let's zero in on tips here

because I don't think any coach is responsible for any situation like this. Like the players are ultimately the ones who are carrying out these plays. Their energy levels, their commitment, their focus has been up and and largely down all season. But when I look at Tibbs, in what ways is he putting

these players in positions to succeed? And in what ways is he helping them be more than just like a group of dudes jogging around out there? I don't think there's very substantial answers to either of those questions right now. So what needs to be done then in that sense? I mean, is it the type of thing where with New York is a personnel issue,

a player's issue? Or is there any type of solution you have in mind for the Knicks here? Well, I mean, barring like a dramatic change in course and temperament from one of the most stubborn head coaches we have, I think some, there has to be a change in the way that the philosophy behind the way of who is playing and who is not. You know, when Emmanuel quickly is playing, as you're saying, when and how much Cam Reddish is playing down the stretch, that is the exact kind of player that should be playing a lot more after the All-Star break. We'll see if they come back and do that or if they're going to be kind of clinging on for dear life to some hope that they're going to make the play. play in or not, you got to shake up the starting lineup, which has not worked all season long, and we're really overdue for a revamp there, for some more energy there. Maybe you're throwing

Obie Toppin into the mix. Maybe you're trying playing smaller for longer stretches. I don't, I mean, I think there's lots of directions you can go in terms of just trying to get more energy into the building. Those options, though, with the roster as constructed, are not going to make you a very good team in this kind of Eastern Conference. Sure. And I think with the Knicks, I mean, last season. I remember before last season when I did like my preseason power rankings, I had the Knicks like 29th or 30th or something like that. And I think I wrote in there something along the lines of like, hey, Knicks fans, you know, silver lining. You could get a high pick in a year with, you know, Cade and Mowbly and all that. And, you know, we'll see, you know, you might win the

lottery. You might get your star. Maybe that ends up being this season. I mean, maybe it's this year where like you missed the playoffs and you get Chad Holmgren or you get Jabari Smith who had an amazing game for Auburn last night, looking like a, I don't know, a Tatum-esque type of score at 610. But I don't know, for the Knicks, that's like the only type of silver lining that I can offer here because I think with R.J.

Barady Dan playing last night's game, he's been so up and down. He's had a pretty good last month or so, but still inefficient, still inconsistent. For this Knicks team, they just don't have that number one star. And I mean, like Stephen A's rants and Knicks fans, all Knicks fans rightfully feel frustrated

after last night when the Knicks are starting Andre Drummond, James Johnson, Bruce Brown, Patty Mills, Seth Curry. They don't have any other star players. They didn't even have Nick Claxton last night. I mean, like the Nets coming back from down 28 points with Cam Thomas a rookie leading the way. However, Nick's fans,

that's going to feel like just like a punch in the temples. I mean, it's just like, geez, man, for this to happen. However, I do think it is actually also a big compliment to the Nets depth that they're able to accomplish that. Like the Nets here, everybody talks about, you know, their big three with Kevin Durant, Carrie Irving, and now Ben Simmons, but they got a lot of good young players on that team. Kessler Edwards has been very important as a 3-&D guy this year.

Daron Sharp, who didn't play last night, Nick Clackson, who I just mentioned, Ben Simmons himself is young. And Cam Thomas doing what he did, 21 points. He's averaging over 20 points in his last seven games. He's been really figuring things out. I don't know, Rob. Like, there's one of the thoughts on my mind watching last night's game is that

this Nets team drummond with 19 rebounds, they're going to feel like a more complete and full roster once they do have all of those guys back because they can play so many different types of styles. They've got a really nice collection of role players now and in ways that are going to compliment Durant and Simmons in particular really beautifully. We'll have to see if they're ultimately a little too small in some spots. they have a lot of guards, a lot of guards who are worthy of minutes,

so we'll see how they handle that. But Cam Thomas, I mean, that's a really important player for them and the exact kind of piece they need right now. Right, like, if it was just guys who are Patty Mills types running around kind of playing their role, I don't know that you win a game like this.

You need a guy like Camp Thomas who's almost in some games. It's like if you guard him tighter, if you guard him more aggressively, he's just more likely to shoot, just more likely to gun for points. But he's so skilled and so talented and such an effective bucket getter, they need a dose of that.

They need a shot in the arm in just the way that he's been able to provide. Yeah, I mean, the shot creation aspect. I mean, to your point, like Seth Curry and Patty Mills are more offball types, I suppose. They can do stuff on the ball, but you want them coming off handoffs.

You want them coming off of screens to get into their shots, to get actually, you know, to get into situations where they are handling the ball. It might not be an isolation situation. With that said, though, I mean, Seth Curry,

as you wrote about on the ringer recently, he was part of one of the most efficient two-man combinations in the NBA with Joel Embed. And the Philadelphia Saturday Sixers swapped that out for James Harden, and understandably so. It's James Harder we're talking about.

But what does Seth Curry bring to the Nets? And what have we seen in this past week because they've really been feeding him shots. I guess what I'm asking is, when the Nets are at full strength, how do we see the Seth Curry game translating inside this offense? Well, they've already imported

some of the stuff that was working for him in Philly. like some of the loop Iverson cut type offense where he's coming off the ball, coming into open shots, and able to run some pick and roll off those situations too. So they're already doing some of that. That's easy to do whether you have stars or not, whether all the guys are in the lineup or out.

But when those guys get back, I mean, a Curry-Durant pick-and-roll in either direction, very difficult to guard for exactly the reasons that a Joelle Embed-Bee'd Curry pick-and-roll was. And Ben Simmons and Curry had a nice two-man chemistry, too, when they were in Philly. That was kind of what made Curry interesting. with the Sixers last season

was he was almost like a bridge between these two styles, between the Simmons style and the Embed style, because he could have a foot in both camps. Really good transition shooter who can run with Ben, who can do some inverted pick and roll stuff with him, but also this great spacer for Joel Embed. So now we're going to see the other side.

We saw him play so well with Joelle earlier this season. We'll see if he and Ben can kind of pick up where they left off when they last played together and kind of re-spark some of what made them so effective as a tandem too. Then that's know they got better this trade. Like, they know it. I've talked to people around that team.

They feel that they got better. And I don't think that's like just some company line saying, oh yeah, we trained James Hart. We got better. I think they actually believe they got better with this deal. For some of the reasons you're stating. And also, I mean, like, just the potential of having

full-time Carrie Irving. I mean, we saw Adam Silver yesterday on ESPN saying how, you know, it doesn't really make a lot of sense that unvaccinated players aren't allowed to play. at home games, but unvaccinated players from other teams are. And later in the day, you get New York Mayor Eric Adams coming out and saying he thinks the rule's unfair. He said, I believe that we are saying to out-of-town athletes that they can come in and not

be vaccinated. Yet New York athletes do have to be vaccinated. You know, I'm struggling with this with the decision with the mask mandate. It seems like we're moving towards, you know, a point in which Carrier Irving is going to be able to be a full-time player. I mean, I just want, I mean, we'll see what Adams does with the mask mandate. what Boston did. Boston months ago, I think it was in December,

they made an exemption for like entertainers, athletes. So, I mean, we'll see how that develops ultimately for the Nets. But the way I'm operating, Rob, and I'm curious if you feel the same way, I'm operating with the mindset that at some point, Kyrie is probably going to become a full-time player at some point. I mean, the wheels certainly feel like they're turning this week in a way that we haven't seen for months.

It's very interesting the way that happened because we have kind of gotten used to this status quo of just Kyrie is not going to be available for these games for months of the NBA season. Now it seems like there's some real momentum, I think because of the declining Omicron cases across the country, especially in New York, I think it's getting more and more plausible

for a more relaxed set of local rules. We'll see if that ultimately happens or not, but that's kind of what makes the net so difficult to project those. We still don't know when Durant's coming back from injury, when Simmons is going to debut for them, when Kyrie's going to be fully available. But if you ask me, just like on a gut check level,

what's going to be the case when the playoffs start? I kind of think all three of those guys are going to be right in the mix, more or less fully operational. That makes them a really dangerous team. Yeah, for sure. I think with this net's team, yeah, I think at some point they're going to have Kyrie full time.

And that's just the way I'm thinking about it. We'll see if the rule actually changes. It's a problem. It's kind of weird that it's a problem that the mayor of New York is being asked about because of a basketball player, but it's really about far more than just basketball. To last night's game between the Blazers and the Grizzlies,

123 to 119, Portland won that despite 44 points from John Morant, despite 30 points from Desmond being kind of an odd night for the Grizzlies not getting a lot of help from other guys on that team. They usually have full, complete games. But on the other side of that, though, Anthony Simons with 31 points. The Blazers are now on a four-game winning streak. Simons is averaging 30 points over this.

stretch on 22 shots tonight. But in all of 2022, this isn't just like a hot week. In all of 2022, Simons is averaging 24 points, shooting 42% on 11-3s per game. 11-3s, 11-3s per game with six assists to only three turnovers. Simons making a mid-season leap after making a leap early in the year from last season. Every year he's getting better. Are you buying the Anthony Simons that we're seeing this past five, six weeks or so? How can you not?

With that kind of shot making, and as you're saying, this incremental progress where we've seen stage and stage and stage of development from him, I think what's big for him this season in particular

is stringing dribble moves together to create open shots for himself. He's doing that at not quite a star level, but a rising star level. Like the shot at the end of the night, right? The three-pointer of the side dribble, the dame like one.

Oh my God. I mean, those are tough-ass shots to manifest And that's what he's doing. It's heavy manufacturing of his own offense against tough defense against, you know, basically the best perimeter defenders that they're running up against in these games. It's really incredible to see. And I think you never know how young guys are going to react when they're given this much room to work

and this much responsibility and opportunity. But since Simons has really been given that, been given that kind of runaway, I feel like the ball, weirdly enough, it sticks with him less. Like he's passing more. he's making more intuitive feeds. He's getting big numbers and like certainly big scoring totals, but he's not stopping the ball

in a way that would worry me if I'm looking at like a young prospect on a, you know, they're not quite a bad team, but they're not quite a good team either. Is it a good thing the Blazers are winning these games? I think so. I think so. I think positive momentum for guys like Simons,

and I think that comes with winning games. I think there's a value in that. You know, the lottery. More valuable than Chet Holmgren or Apollo Bencaro. I mean, it's a fair point. The players are ready, they were ready to embrace the tank. Completely ready. Well, do you think with the flattened odds, it'll make a meaningful difference?

I mean, if they make the play in and then end up with like, I don't know, 10th, 11 best odds in that case. That was. Yes. Yeah. That would. But if they miss the plane, like if the pelicans or spurs or kings end up slipping in there, probably not that big of a difference. No. And maybe they're splitting the difference, too,

because they now own New Orleans pick for this year as well, right? So maybe they're kind of hedging their bets, thinking like one of these picks, even with the protections, is going to get us a good enough prospect that we can kind of keep rolling along. But let's also be real. This is a four-game winning streak for the Blazers.

I don't think it's going to get that much longer than this. This is tied for their longest streak of the season. The losses are going to come one way or another. but it's nice to see some daylight with this collection of players to see Justice Winslow pop. You know, to see Josh Hart have some great minutes for them and see kind of like what his future role

could be in different capacities. I think that stuff absolutely that's about you. To your point, I mean, like after the All-Star break, they open up with Golden State, Denver, Phoenix, then 2 versus Minnesota, then Utah. They get a tough stretch coming up after the All-Star break where, you know,

for the Blazers fans who do want to lose and do want to, you know, have those, because losing his winning. You get the higher draft lottery odds. They should start dropping more games. With that said, though, I mean, the big picture implications here are if Anthony Simons starting to just look like a better version of C.J. McCollum because of the playmaking that you're talking about. Spicey.

He has the go-to. He does, dude. I mean, he has the go-to scoring ability. But he also has better playmaking instincts. And this whole Blazers team, after everything in their front office did, Josh Hart's been great for them this past week. Nirkich has been better this past month or so. you got Winslow giving good minutes.

It just feels like a better roster overall, and finally they're in a position now where they have some wings with size. They just feel like a deeper, roster to build with Damien Lillard moving forward. So in that sense, assuming Lillard does stick around and stay as loyal, which I expect him to, the Blazers are looking like they can turn around quickly,

even if they do end up in the draft lottery. Yeah, I think it's relative, right? they can turn around quickly in a way that they'll be relevant in the West again. They have the potential to, with a move or two, an addition or two, be kind of back in the mix with some of these other teams. The question for them is how do they rise beyond that point? And that's where it comes back to, as you're alluding to, their ability to hit in the draft,

they're going to have to capitalize on that opportunity in such a huge way. But with this team right now, do you have a favorite deep cut blazer? Do you have a favorite, like, fringe, rotation, kind of guy who has popped over the last couple weeks or months? who's caught your eye? I think like Justice Winslow is always going to have a special place in my heart. I mean, just because like I loved him in the draft

and I really wish that he hadn't had so many injuries throughout his career. I wish his three-pointer had become more consistent. Like he had one year shooting, I think, 38, 39 percent from three. And I'm like, it's happening. It's happening. There's one year where in Miami's playing like a point center role.

I'm like, it's happening. It's happening. and it just hasn't totally worked out but it's just great to see him having these I think it was after last night's game he's like I found a home here I found a home in Portland but I just like seeing the effort

that he plays with on the court is there a player on the Blazers that sticks out to you Rob? I mean there's been a couple in this game or that but weirdly enough Trendon Watford has been catching my eye again deep deep cut here you know when Nikias Duncan was on

here the other day you guys I can't remember who it was talking about someone with elite feet I don't remember which player was. Trend to Watford, though. Pretty nice feet. Pretty medium to high level feet, good hands. I kind of like him as a rotation player for them.

And again, in the range that you're talking about, like mobile big wings, how do we get those kinds of guys? And if Watford could be that in some dosage next season, that's a boom. That's a big hit. You know who has bad feet? Zion Williamson. Christian Clark of Nola.com said Zion could require another foot surgery.

he reported that earlier this week. I believe it was this morning, Brian Windhorst said on ESPN that the Pelicans coaching staff was told not to expect to see Williamson for the foreseeable future. This might be a dumb question here, Rob. But, you know, as part of the CJ McCollum,

Pelicans Blazers deal, let's say a minute or two before the deadline, David Griffin calls up the Blazers, Joe Cronin and says, we'll give you Zion for Anthony Simons, but you get a wave the physical. Did the Blazers accept that? Yeah.

They do? Yeah. Are you sure? Look, I'm out here in the Bay Area. People are buying houses, waving the inspection, sight unseen. Maybe I'm a little jaded to this process

in terms of like popping open the hood and really seeing what's going on over here. 700 square feet for like $4.4.8 million. Don't worry. I'm sure there's no mold in there. Don't even worry about it. But Zion, I think there's still a lot of teams that even with all the surgeries,

even with all the concerns, even whatever you think about his frame in his long-term future, they would gladly roll the dice with that relative to what they have. And, you know, Simons is a really good prospect. He's still a guy who, I mean, is going to be due for a payday. Hasn't really figured out how to play NBA defense yet. We'll see how that proceeds over the next couple of years.

He has his own questions. And so I think there are a lot of cases like that with Simons and Simons adjacent players versus the Zions of the world who just do not come around very often. Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair to say yes. I was just asking just out of curiosity because there are definitely people who would say hell known of that because of the fear factor that you have with Zion Williamson. What do you think of what are your early impressions of this deal on the Pelican side of things factoring in that Zion we just might not see him the rest of the season? It makes the

protections on that pick a little bit more understandable top four protected than 15 to 30 protected. Both the protections and the fact that they would want McCollum potentially. You know, not just for finishing out this season, but again, who knows what's going to happen with Zion's health going into next season. Who knows when exactly he's going to be ready and fully geared up and ready to go. So to have another guy in the building who can make your offense more coherent, who can string some stuff together, who's a really good shot creator in his own right. I think that makes a lot of sense. I like the fit of McCollum with Ingram, with Zion long term, just as far as getting the offense where it needs to be. Defensively, there's going to be a lot of questions with that

trio. But I think there's a good balance there. I think McCollum is exactly the kind of guard you want with Zion who maybe that trio works, as I kind of think it would, or if it doesn't, maybe having McCollum makes a guy like Ingram more movable if you need to explore those options. Just having another score, another balance in the building already,

where you can then look at, okay, what exact kind of player do we want to fill out these lineups if Zion is going to be the superstar we think he can be? That's a really great point. And just having McCollum there does keep you more versatile. And also, I mean, at his age with his contract length in a couple of years before that deal is up when he becomes

an expiring deal, having a $30 plus million deal on your books does make some sense when you have all of these draft picks as well. So I think it makes sense in that way. It just gives you more paths to your point there. And that's all you can ask for when you're trying to build around Zaya Williams and all the variables there. With that said, the Pelicans are trying to get into the playoffs this season. Right now, they're a game and a half back from the 10 spot to play in with the Blazers. They're four games back from the Lakers who won their game last night

against the Jazz. They're five back from the Clippers who still ahead of the Lakers in the standings. Just chugging along. How are the Clippers doing what they're doing, Rob? They're 29 and 31. How is this happening

that they're better than the Lakers so far this season? I mean, that comparison is just too apt to ignore, right? Like between the Lakers and the Clippers, just the differences in their circumstances where you have in one locker room in the same building, this franchise in the Lakers,

who's just over-indexed on Star Power at the expensive fit, and then the clippers who are so versatile, so flexible, so well-fitting, that they can just kind of make this stuff work. And I think a lot of that comes back to Tai Liu and his ability to kind of deploy these guys in really sensible ways. If I can put you on the spot, I mean, in terms of pure X's and O's, Tai Lu is a top blank coach in the NBA right now. top three to five.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Off the top of my head, I was thinking, Spoe, Nick Nurse. Other than that, I think it's a toss-up between Lou and other guys,

and it comes down to this balance between he does some things that are very utilitarian. You're not putting Tom Tibido in that around? Where's tips? Bottom five? Yeah, he's got a case to be somewhere

like top 25-ish. You know, but, you know, the balance between doing very practical things, and doing very creative things. Like, I don't know how many coaches in the NBA start Avita Zubots on Luca Donchich and back-to-back games,

just to kind of see if it works, just to put length on him, just to, like, have that pick and roll prepped out to eliminate the action on the ball screen. I don't know how many coaches try that and win one of those games and steal one of those games from a Dallas team that has a clearly superior player to anything you have going on. But that's what the clippers are doing.

They just make this stuff work. They also have, I mean, I think he said it in there. Like, this team has a bunch of just, also like hardworking guys like i say a heartenstein coming off their bench a mere coffee now you get covington coming off your bench who despite some of his flaws as a player he plays hard i mean this is just a team like where it feels like there's total buy-in throughout and i also like that tyloo is you know distributing minutes throughout the roster as well it's kind of the the opposite of tibs in this sense because it's like you're giving brandon boston chances you're giving him opportunities to play

20, 25 minutes per game, while Miles McBride for the Knicks can't even sniff the floor with any consistency. And granted for the Clippers, there's some injury issues and all that, at some point they have guys in and out of the lineup. You don't have to give the guy who has drafted 51st minutes,

but they're doing it anyway. And the investment in those guys can help, and he's made some steady progress throughout with his G-League minutes and his minutes with the Clippers. But, I mean, this Clippers team here, like watching them this season, and they're probably not getting Kauai back, they're probably not getting Paul George back,

but it's similar to Dame in the sense that I like the fit, you plug Dane back into Portland, you plug Kauai and Paul George back into this. All of the pieces around them make a lot of sense. But they also make sense without those guys there too, which is nice to watch. My favorite thing about watching them right now, so they beat the Warriors the other night,

and the Clippers are so undermanned at this point that when they beat you, they like make you reconsider what the hell you're even doing, doing. Like, you just look across and, you know, Reggie Jackson is cooking you. And you're just like, man, we really need to just like take a hard look in the mirror about where we are as a team. But the Clippers do that to everybody. They're doing it to everybody. Yeah, they absolutely do it everybody. And I mean, we're not going to necessarily see another Clippers Mavericks playoff series this year. We could. I mean, you never know how things will shake out.

We are going to see Dallas, though. They made their big trade last week, moving poor Zingis for Dinwiddie and Bertons. You wrote about this on the ringer earlier this week. and you had a line in there that stuck out to me, you said, this was a trade involving Porzingis, Dinwitty, and Burnton's, but about Daunchich. What do you mean by that where it's involving those names, but it's actually about Luca? Well, again, it's another one of these teams

that had to really look at where they were and what they had and what their room for upward mobility was with the roster that they had constructed. And I think they looked at Porzingis, and especially his health and especially his contract, and said, we don't know that we can get where we need to go, go with this kind of roster construction. And so we're willing to take these guys who are having down seasons and roll the dice

and see if we can get better in other ways later. And that's all about Luca. That's all about how can we reboot around one of the top five to seven players in the NBA right now and try to make this work in a longer term sense than what we have. And in a way that I think is a little bit controversial, is a little bit unpopular. Chris Topps Porzingis is a big named player, a former All-Star, a guy that gave up a lot to get and to just accept the sunk cost of that, I think does reflect a certain maturity of a franchise. That said, not like the biggest Davis Berton Spencer Dinwiddie fan in the world.

I'm not like huge on those guys' prospects, unless you're buying into the Bertanizance of him having his best game against the heat the other night at basically two years. I mean, he kind of forgot how to shoot this season. His numbers should go back up to closer to 40% or higher. With Dinwiddie, you hope he can get back to what he was. pre-torn ACL, like he did after he tore was ACL in college, and he ended up having a great, you know, lucrative career. But if he can get back again, that could also for Dallas free up Jayland Brunson, sign and trade possibilities, get more creative there, similar to what you're talking about with New Orleans. There was another line in your article that stuck out to me.

You said, these days, it's not enough just to be a seven-footer who can shoot. Every unicorn has to find a way to survive in a league that has learned to hunt them. And you're talking about Chris Abbott's Sporzing is, particularly first guy. A lot of people are calling a unicorn. What do you mean by that exactly? Every unicorn has to find a way to survive in a league that has learned to hunt them. Well, anytime there's this big seismic shift in style in the NBA or a player type we haven't seen that much of before, there's then the wave of the defense is trying to figure it out, right?

And I think the first response to the wave of stretch fours, for example, is, can we guard these guys with wings? Can we just put a small forward or a shooting guard on him and get away with it? And that, like, knocked Ryan Anderson straight out of the league. You know, we've seen those kind of developments before. Chris Hapsozvrozingis and that player type who came in as a unicorn, came in with the ability to not only shoot, but do some posting to create his own shot, to handle the ball a little bit. We've seen his game narrow over time to the point where if you're that size

and you can't punish mismatches consistently, what are you really? You know, like, what are you doing that's that different from other players? and that's where the unicorn thing gets tough and where some, you know, I don't know if Janus is a unicorn, I don't know if Carl Town, I don't know where we're drawing the lines anymore, Carl Towns as far as like who fits that designation and who doesn't.

But Chris Staps is unquestionably one of those guys and unquestionably one that hasn't adapted all that well to the new reality of playing in the modern NBA where teams are just used to this stuff now. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's the question some people have about, you know, Chad Holmgren from Gonzaga. He's undoubtedly a top prospect

an elite rim protector. He can shoot like crazy from three-point range. But the difference between him and Porzingis is the handling ability, the play-making ability. Porzingis, to your point, if a defense learns how to contain you as a score, you have to beat them another way or be able to defeat mismatches. He can't defeat teams on the post. He sucks on the post.

He starts off great this season, then fizzles just like he has pretty much every single season of his career just falls off a cliff. Holmgren's different in the sense that he can do all of that stuff, but he can also bring the floor up the floor, bring the ball up the floor, facilitate for your team. He can attack and close out and make a play off the bounce. He can pass from the post. He can do everything you need.

So I think the difference there is quite significant. With Porzingis, he just doesn't have those extra skills in order to beat somebody. And it's kind of the opposite of Nicole Iokic in that game against the Warriors last night. Nuggets went on the game winning three by Monti, Morris off a pass by Yokic and I didn't see this game live but watching it this morning. It's just hilarious watching in that fourth quarter.

They go to Yokic on the left block like every single play. If the Warriors send a little bit of help, he finds the open man. If they don't send help, he's just backing down Kevin Luni and scoring inside like from right underneath the basket. It's just like you can't do anything with Yokicch. He is the quote unquote unicorn with an answer for everything that a defense does to you. I wonder to, you know, as we're talking about, you know, as we're talking about, talking and comparing these guys,

you know, Chet Holmgren types, Chris Epps Porzingis types, Nicola Yokic types. This might sound crazy, but I wonder if there's a distinction between the guys who are like 7 foot, 611 and the guys who are just a bit taller than that, the 7-2-7-3 like Porzengis is

where part of the reason it's hard for him to handle is there's just so much space between his hand and the floor. There's so much room for defenders to disrupt him. I wonder if there's like a slightly meaningful difference in that. if you're already oversized, you're already battling against your health, your lower body and trying not to strain things,

your coordination as just like a giant human being, if it's just like pushing the experiment a bit too far for guys like that to have to do this, because you look at Yokic, it's just at the total other end of the spectrum, as you mentioned, punishes everything you throw at him to the point where almost every time I watch him in the Nuggets play,

I have the exact same thought, which is, this guy's the best basketball player in the world, right? I just don't know, and it's breaking my brain in the MVP of it all to figure out how much we're supposed to hold responsible, hold him responsible for the Nuggets record relative to the fact that when he's on the floor, they just dominate every minute. I don't know how to parse all that stuff. I mean, the fact that right now they have the sixth seed with Jamal Murray having missed the entire year, still recovering from his torn ACL, with Michael Porter Jr. dealing with all the crap injuries that he has to deal with. the fact that they're still the 16th and they're only three back from the jazz. Unbelievable. It's truly unbelievable.

It really is. I mean, this is no knock on anybody on this Nuggets roster, but the fact that you're missing two of the three key players on that roster that you expected to say, oh, Michael Porter Jr. is the guy that could elevate us from like really good playoff team to NBA finals favorite. The fact that you don't have Jamal Murray,

the guy who had 40, 50 point playoff game. in the past and is continuing to trend up as a player getting more and more consistent every year and you're still a sixth seed. I mean, it says a lot about Yokic's impact as a player and his ability to elevate the talents of everybody around him. And you mentioned the MVP race. To me, there's really only three actual winning MVP candidates. That's Yokic and Bede and Yannis. There's like seven other guys, De Rosen, Curry, Chris Paul,

John Morant, and others that belong in the top five conversation. But I was shocked with the Tim Bond-Temp's straw poll that he does every year, every couple months or so on ESPN.com.

There were five people that left Yokic off their ballots, three that left Yonis off their ballots. Yonis, like, what are we doing? Like, are you not watching these guys play? And also,

Even if you aren't, Janus is number one in the NBA in points per game. Like right now he's leading. Yonis is leading in points per game right now while also playing defensive player of the year caliber defense. Like this is the same guy, except maybe even a little better that won two MVP. And Yokic is even better than he was last year when he was MVP, when he won his MVP, because he's better on defense now. It's the level of player we're seeing from these three giants, Yokic, Yonis, and Abed.

It never fails to amaze or entertain me any time I turn on league pass and tune into those guys. Well, that bracket right there, those three guys, that feels like the future of the NBA to me. If they can stay healthy, that's where these conferences are going through.

That's what everyone is going to be game planning for and against. But how you could leave those guys off your ballot, I don't know, like how Yokic is not a bigger story this season, why he isn't a Russell Westbrook MVP season level story under these circumstances with this kind of production, with this kind of impact, just tells me people aren't watching enough Denver Nuggets basketball.

That's the only possible explanation I can come up with. You know, I've pitched a note, I don't know if this is something I should say. I don't really care, but I've pitched a number of Yokic stories over the years. And what I've been told all the time is Yokicch just doesn't want press. That's definitely true. I'd willing to bet ESPN, you know,

they're like, you know, whether it was a jump with Rachel Nichols or now, you know, NBA today with Malika Andrews. I would imagine they're like, yeah, we want Yokich on for, a one-on-one 30-minute sit-down, and he says, no. I would just imagine that, like, the TNT has done the same thing. ABC's probably done the same thing. He just doesn't want the attention. And I bet that plays into it there.

But that's also part of what makes him just so lovable, is that he doesn't care about all that extra crap. Like, he just plays the game. Like, he just is a dominant force who's all about winning and playing basketball. Like, the reaction after last night, the pass to Monta-Morris, This is a team that just loves to play with each other. And so much of that stems from Yokic and the selflessness with which that he plays with on the court. I mean, to me, I think right now in the NBA, those top three candidates, like you said,

it's going to go through them, but they also just set a spectacular example. Like, Katie tweeted that last time about DeRosen. He says, thank you for setting a great example and playing the game with supreme skill. DeRosen, you know, is a top five MVP candidate, not necessarily going to win it. But like so many of these elite players right now in the game that are getting all of this attention, they just play such an unselfish way that to me, I just love watching them for that reason. I think they set an example that could kind of set the coordinates moving forward in the years to come where you have players that are young right now watching them play in the way that they do.

That's going to lead to even more great basketball in the decades to come. Maybe that's me being out too, I'm optimistic. But I just can't help but think about that because it's true. What a great example to have these players. No, I'm a believer in that in the idea that, you know, you see a guy like Steph Curry and it changes the shape of youth basketball, of AAU basketball. You know, that's a unique case.

But I think there's something to what you're saying. Like, how could you watch Janus as a young player playing basketball? So, you know, even a college player playing basketball, see the effort he plays with, the investment in every possession, and not take something away from that. How could you see, you know, the clear, refinement in Joelle and Beads game, after coming to the game so late, being at a tremendous disadvantage relative to his peers and being so refined, having the skill and all the tools and every

counter and every option, especially in the post relative to everyone else, how can you watch Nicola Yokic play? And as we've been talking about, be able to just completely pick you apart and not take something like, oh man, I need to hit the film harder. I need to look at how do I diagnose this shit like Nicola Yokic does? How do I be the guy from my team that is the chemistry booster that is getting everybody involved? I think you're right. I think those guys are tremendous examples as far as the style of play for what basketball can be and all in such different ways that make it so interesting for three giant dudes to develop in these very different paths, just completely spread out in terms of skill set, ability, read, feel. Their approaches are so different.

That's what's delightful to me about it. Totally, right. They're all big guys. but they just play the game in such dramatically different ways. So it's exciting in that sense. And same thing with Demar de Rosen, where, I mean, he's this mid-range hero for his entire career. People say the mid-range is dead.

He leaves Toronto for San Antonio. And with the Spurs, like, he gets better, develops more playmaking, gets even more refined, more efficient for mid-range. And now with Chicago, with all the personnel around him, he's having a career best season in his early 30s.

He has this streak of seven straight games. with 35 plus points on 50 plus percent shooting, the first player in NBA history to do that. I don't care if it's cherry-pick numbers. That is unbelievable, dude. It is unbelievable for him to be on this run. I mean, and what I love about it is it hasn't come at the expense of his playmaking at all. He still looks like a guy who's just put him in the center of an offense,

and he will make so many players around him better. You know, he makes, you know, his two-man game with Nikola Vukovych has really come along over the course of this season. they just fit so well together. The way he makes plays and handles and passes makes Kobe White a suddenly more valuable player for them as kind of an off-ball guard. He's had some really good games.

And so, like, that's what I look at in Derozen. He's transitioning from when he was in Toronto, and in some sense in San Antonio, you had to put the pieces around him just right to make it work, to give him the space, to give him what he needed. Now we're seeing him without Zach Levine, without Lonzo, without Alex Caruso.

So it doesn't really matter. We're knocking down three and four spots on the depth chart without Patrick Williams, and he's still making it work. All of this said, I do want to ask, please, podcasters, broadcasters, media people, can we please leave the analytics straw men alone? They have been beaten to death over the course of this year. I can't read another glowing piece about DeRosen that gets into how he's like single-handedly defeating math. He's not. No, he's not. As you mentioned, he's gotten much more efficient at the shots he takes since he was a raptor. That's the difference. That's really it. He hits shots from 10 to 16 feet at a 55% clip. I do not know an analytics model and existence that would turn down a 55% shot. It does not exist. It's a good shot for him. I think we can leave it at that.

absolutely it's a it's a super efficient shot for him whether he's wide open whether he's heavily contested he has become an absolute dominant force unstoppable from the mid-range area he can still get to the basket can still draw fouls now he's got the playmaking and even shooting from three like he doesn't do it with much frequency but what he does i mean he's even been yeah he'll dabble a little bit he's been all right shooting 34% on two attempts per game not bad Not bad at all. That's pretty good for DeRosen, considering his entire career, but it just speaks to his overall development.

And I think with this Bulls team, man, like you got Vouch. I talked about with Chris Vernon on the mismatch. And I think this earlier Tuesday or last Friday, and Vouch taking on a more significant role after sacrificing earlier, Ayo Dosunmu, who I have a video out today on the Boyd on the Ringer's YouTube channel. Oh, hell yeah. I mean, like, he comes off the bench playing 10, 12 minutes a game to start. the season. Lonzo and Caruso go down. His opportunity and touches increased. Now, Levine

dealing with the left knee injury, him and or Kobe White. Last night it was Kobe White getting 19 shots scoring 31 points. Other nights, it's going to be I-O. Everybody on this Bulls team, you know, you said DeRosen is the guy that somebody used to have, teams used to have to build around to make it work right. This Bulls team, it feels like just a whole roster of adaptable players that are filling roles that are required at certain moments of the season. That's also a testament we're talking coaching. You mentioned Ty Lou earlier. Billy Donovan's coached the heck out of this Bulls team.

For them to be number one seat in the Eastern Conference, despite the key guys they've had out throughout the year and right now, it's highly impressive. It really is. I know, especially from a media perspective, credit tends to get split between star players, deep rosters, coaches, front offices. This is really one of those situations where,

it needs to go all the way around. Yeah. I mean, the Bulls are at the top of the Eastern Conference. That is the coaching, as you're mentioning, which, I mean, just that Donovan had such a clear vision of how this team needed to play from day one from the very start of the season, and they've executed and adapted,

and they've been just tremendous in terms of managing what an 82 game season looks like. But from a personnel standpoint, hitting on Ayudasumu is the kind of move that changes a decent playoff team to now all of a sudden pretty compelling one. you know, making the swing for DeRosen, getting these guys and making the trade for Vujavich

that allows you to get Derozen. You know, there's just enough moves here and enough things that, like, from the outside, you could look at a scantz. You could say, are these pieces really going to fit? Clearly, they're operating with information that we don't have, with insight that we don't have always in terms of how these pieces are going to coalesce

because they've been tremendous just in terms of taking these isolated skill sets and making them mesh altogether so well. And that starts with Donovan. What else is on your mind right now, Rob, about the NBA? It's a great question. I mean, there's a lot of stuff going around. I mean, do we want to talk about the Chris Paul stuff at all with the Sons?

Yeah, let's talk about the Chris Paul stuff. Yeah, what's on your mind there, Rob, with him having the MRI on his hand. We don't have the results as of now recording Thursday morning. Part of it for me, so yesterday on group chat, we were talking about who are our most intriguing teams after the deadline. And the Sons were one of those teams for me, just because they were already so good, the rest of the West did not really do anything to improve itself to challenge them. So I wanted to see, is this a juggernaut in plain sight?

Is this a team that is going to roll through the Western Conference or are they going to get a real challenger here? Are the Warriors going to step up or the Grizzly's going to step up? Now we see something interesting with the Suns if Chris Paul is out for a significant period of time, which is how are they going to manage the tactics of games, how do they respond to tight moments without him over a longer-term stretch when teams can really prepare

for that sort of thing, zero in on them. I'm not as concerned about their offensive firepower without a guy like CP or we already know this is a great defense. They can manage that even without him. But the execution for that team, which is really their hallmark, their ability to navigate

around whatever it is you're trying to do, that's what makes them so good. And a lot of that comes from Chris Paul. Can they still do that kind of thing without him for a couple weeks, for a month, for two months? I don't know. Assuming he is back healthy for the postseason, could it be a blessing of disguise from the

to get that opportunity that you're hitting on here, learning how to execute and flourish and run this offense, you know, how to click on all cylinders without Chris Paul. Could that be of great value for like a Devin Booker to get more opportunity doing something like that? Oh, absolutely. And not just for Booker,

but figuring out what those lineups look like, because, you know, although the Suns have been, they've been pretty good without Chris Paul on the floor this season in general, but a lot of that is like they're pretty solid bench against other second units. but if you're going to throw campaign into the starting lineup,

if you're going to throw maybe Aaron Holiday gets a look at it, you know, it's new in the building, but I think in terms of fit, I like pain coming off the bench a little more, and I just don't love like Alfred Payton as a starting option, frankly. So, you know, maybe you throw Aaron Holiday in there. See what this kind of thing looks like in the situations where you have to do that.

And that not only tells you what you would look like without Chris Paul, it tells you, if we had to shorten our rotation in a playoff series to seven guys playing, you know, It's going to be, you know, Cam Johnson off the bench and one guard. Can we do that? Can we manage that and still beat some of these teams? I think that's where kind of the burden of proof is right now. We don't have the answer yet on Chris Paul's hand injury.

We did hear that it sounds like Anthony Davis will be out two weeks after he sprained his ankle against the jazz. And a really, you know, impressive Lakers comeback victory. I was at that game. When AD got hurt, it felt the arena just felt lifeless for a little while. Lakers are down in the second half and Westbrook struggling through three quarters and like fans around me are groaning anytime he touches the

ball but then that fourth quarter starts and LeBron James just turns it on playing the five, the jazz once again old news at this point can't stop teams that go small when they're on defense and they can't figure out ways to score on offense when teams are

constantly switching against them same story there but for the Lakers LeBron James was absolutely outstanding down the stretch of that game, but I also got to say this, Rob. Russell Westbrook had one of his best stretches recently down the stretch of that game. Okay.

He was cutting to the rim, aware, he was screening, he wasn't shooting. He had opportunities to shoot. Well, one point Rudy O'Bare sagging off him, daring him to shoot. He's like,

double dog daring him to shoot. And Russell Westbrook didn't do it. He didn't do it. And Ramona Shelburne, like when it comes to listening to, like, plugged in media members. You got to read between the lines. Same thing with Stephen A. I said up top. His line about Tibbs in the

middle of his three-minute rant, look at that one little line and think about it. Ramona Shelburne on the Hoop Collective podcast with Dave McManaminn and Brian Windhorst, very plugged in with the Lakers, says, my understanding is that this coaching staff is really starting to

coach Westbrook. They want to invest in him. They want to give him opportunities to learn. They want to really try to get him to do the things that he needs to do. Well, since then, I mean, doing more of those things. He's not shooting from outside the restricted area as much. He isn't taking careless shots as often. He's passing, screening,

cutting, focusing on defense, hustling more. That's what the Lakers need from him. Maybe some of that, you know, benching him could work out here and getting him to do the things that they need to do. It's just like a six-minute stretch that I'm talking about here,

but I saw the version of Westbrook that the Lakers are going to need. Two things come to mind for me from that. One, when he was first traded, or sorry, when the Rockets first went super small when they traded for Rob Covington, one of their breakout

games was against the Jazz. It was like the Jazz regarding Westbrook with Gobert. There was something about that matchup that unlocked for him in a way that these situations are friendly. If you're going to play really small and have Russell Westbrook on the floor, this is the kind of team that you can beat

in a lot of situations. But as we've been circling around, and as you've been about across all our various platforms, Russell Westbrook's capacity to change or not and how that's going to basically define the rest of his career. I'm reminded with this stuff of like how quickly it can go. And you think back to someone like Alan Iverson and how quickly he went from All-Star, Fringe, All-Star,

to straight out of the league. And I'm not saying that's going to happen for Russ overnight if he doesn't change, but if you are a ball-dominant guard who does not have these complimentary skills, who's not doing the screening and cutting and rebrand, founding who doesn't understand where you need to shoot from and where you shouldn't, it's going to re-contextualize things for you very quickly in terms of your contracts and

your roles and eventually whether you have a spot with winning teams at all. There's going to be some team who might take a chance on you, but it's not going to be the teams you want. Absolutely. I mean, he's going to be gone. He's going to be gone unless he changes. And I know some people listen to me and they're like rolling their eyes and he's never going to change. He's never going to change. Well, we'll see. All I'm asking him to do is to do the things that he's good at more than the things that he's bad at. It's a pretty simple concept. Like, it's really not as big of a change as I think people are making it out to be. It's like, just shoot less. You're the most inefficient high-volume shooter in the history of

basketball. Don't do that, but do more of the other stuff that you've shown that you can do throughout your career in spurts. It's like really not that complicated. It's really not. I got to say, this has been a dark couple years. The most heartening thing in all of this for me has been your continued belief in Russell Westbrook listening to the angel on his shoulder. It speaks to a greater, a greater person inside all of us, and I appreciate it. I don't even know if it's belief. I might be the angel on his shoulder, but I don't believe in him. I don't think he's going to listen.

Yeah. But when I see stuff like last night's game where that six minutes stretched to close, look, Vogel was benching him to end games because he was playing Russell Westbrook style. he let Westberg play and contribute towards a great comeback win for the Lakers. That was a great win for the Lakers because he did the things that the coaching staff is asking him to do.

I don't think Russ cares. I don't even think he knows who I am. It doesn't matter. But I guarantee you the people in that Lakers coaching staff, they are saying the same things to him. And he did it last night. So to me, that's a sign of progress in addition to everything else that he's done this season.

But for the Lakers, though, 80 going down. I mean, geez, man. We talked about the playoff race for the Lakers here. Is there any chance that the Lakers missed the playoffs, Rob? Last question for you here. Any chance? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think they're going to make the play-in one way or another,

just because the competition isn't steep enough. But probably the funniest outcome and maybe an increasingly likely outcome is a team like the Pelicans or the Blazers knocking them out in a play-in game. I think that's a real possibility at this point. It's wild. It's wild how quickly things can change. job thank you for joining me on the void today man they appreciate you have thank you again to rob mahoney for joining the void thank you to jesse lopez for producing and thank you to you for listening

to the show please give the mismatch podcast feed a rating and review really appreciate it it really helps the show i hope you have a great rest of your day