The Mismatch - Warriors Roll as Wiggins Finds His Role, Looney on the Boards, and Landing in the Perfect Spot

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

Verno and KOC recap last night’s Game 1 victory for the Warriors and focus their attention on Andrew Wiggins (00:45). Luka and the Mavs are going to have a hard time if the Warriors are playing this well on defense. They also give high praise to Kevon Looney for his massive rebounding game (20:53). The guys turn their focus on the Kings franchise: If they want to change their culture, it begins with Mike Brown (31:11). Next, why the Thunder are the most likely team to trade down in the draft and Chet Holmgren’s NBA potential (36:19). KOC highlights some of his favorite prospects in the draft (48:36) before the guys dive into the Heat-Celtics series (58:20). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on The Ringer NBA show and the Mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. Welcome to The Mishmatch. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Thursday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor,

a.K. Kevin O. O. Bomber, Kevin O.O. Conner, Kevin O. Kevin O. Kande. Kevin O. Kavana. Kevin O. Kevin O. Oh, another big Andrew Wiggins game. Oh, for goodness sakes.

You know, I start to get, you know, tweets and whatnot about this. I got, let me just make this clear right off the bat. I got nothing against this guy, okay? Nothing against this guy. And Chris, any time you say something mildly negative or that goes against what everybody likes to think, you're always trying to be pushed to agree with them. So don't worry about the Wiggins hate that you got last year.

You're all good. Or this year, or anytime he does anything that is a minor contribution to winning. Anytime. I get tagged in these too, Chris. I see him as well. I probably don't see all of them, though. Look, I didn't want to get angry today, Kiv.

But let me just say this, all right? Can we stop? For one moment, every time the guy contributes at all to winning. Anytime he does anything being surprised because he makes $32 million. He started the All-Star game. He's the fourth option on a Warriors team. Like, this is not some, he was the number one pick in the frigging draft. And everybody's like, oh, look, Andrew Wiggins contributed.

Well, I'd hope so. He makes $32 million. He was the number one picking the draft. Like, what the hell is going on? He's not a undrafted free agent from Pomona that, you know, is like, wow, I can't believe that Austin Reeves hit a game winning shot. Like, what are we doing here? Like, congratulations.

You contributed to winning on a team that's going to pay a billion dollars in luxury tax so they can afford to have a $32 million. fourth option. Okay. All right. So, all right. Okay. Let's have a party.

I'm glad that you got that out of your system because the thing with Andrew Wiggins is because he was a number one pick. He came in. People are calling him Maple Jordan. He has number one pick expectations. And he flopped. He didn't meet those expectations. He's not the guy.

He's not a key player. He's not a superstar. But what I find admirable with Wiggins is the fact that despite those expectations, despite the fact he got that Big Max contract. He fails, he gets traded, and he goes to this Warriors team, and he embraces the role. Steph Curry talked about this after last night's game, where he has embraced doing the little things, putting an extra effort, making the extra pass, taking smarter shots, cutting to the rim.

These are all things that he didn't do at a high level at all in Minnesota. It was the opposite. He was a shot chucker who took poor, made poor decisions on the floor, was inconsistent defensively, and now he's changed all that to become the best player that he can be for this Warriors team. And so in that sense, I find that commendable that Wiggins has turned himself into this player where he doesn't need to have big knights every game for the Warriors, but sometimes he can and he can also be consistently impactful on defense. So I think you're both sides are right. Like you're right, he's not necessarily worth $30 plus million. But the other side also,

So I think in terms of accepting who he has become, I'm on that side in terms of Wiggins because he was once a player that I lost belief in, but he has changed that by becoming the new version of himself with Golden State. So that's impressive. And it's really a testament to this entire Warriors team. Isn't it, Chris? Like, isn't it kind of like this whole team is about sacrifice and embracing your roles? Yeah.

It always has been. Look, it is commendable. I guess my cynical point of view is what are you going to do? You're going to go out there and try to take 20 shots on a team with Steph Curry. I mean, you know, you don't really have a choice of the matter. If you're going to survive and you're going to thrive. But Chris, like when we first had our argument, what was it, two years ago? Like two years ago maybe?

We first had our argument about like, does this make any sense for Golden State? And like you said, you won't be there within any year. I mean, I think there are a lot of people who agreed with you at the time. And I was the one who looked goofy for saying, well, maybe, I mean, maybe a minimized role. he could turn into something. And I didn't know for sure it would work out. We know how many times guys get asked to do stuff they don't normally do and it never works.

But with Golden State, the system they have there, the infrastructure with Steph Curry, Clay Thompson, Draymond Green, the level of buy-in that that Golden State roster has, I thought Steph Curry nailed it last night. He has learned how to find joy in the winning. You know, by doing the things that lead to winning and what that feeling has for an individual and for the collective.

That's what we're seeing from this Wiggins evolution into a high-level role player, Harrison Barnes type of guy, rather than somebody people called Maple Jordan and he went number one in the draft. He's not a number one pick. He still will go down as a player who didn't meet the number one pick expectations

of a franchise space of the franchise. But to see him doing what he did last night for the Warriors and has done for a long time now is highly impressive, I think. Yeah, well, I mean, I certainly did not expect them to have a $180 million payroll in fairness to myself. I mean, I'll tell you what, they showed why last night. Didn't they though, Chris? 11287, they did show why in last night's game with their defense on Luca.

They threw the kitchen sink in him, man. That was crazy. That was wild to watch. They threw everything at him. You know, what do we make of this? What do we make of these just flat, lame-o? we don't know what to make of you performances in these opening games. It's like, and who knows if they'll get it going in this one?

You and I both like their chances a great deal in this series. And who knows if they'll get it going? But the fact that it takes them two games before they get going is a bit concerning because this is now the third time that this has happened. It didn't look great against Utah. at the beginning of that series. It certainly looked like it was going to go the wrong way for them against Phoenix. And it's like, do you think it's just as simple as they play out the first couple of games

and then they figure out, okay, here's all the adjustments that we're going to make. And once we make our adjustments, then we're going to become the team. Luca's going to become that guy. and we are going to become that team as a collective that becomes a much greater problem. Because that is what has happened, right? I mean, I was thinking about that last night as the game played out. I'm like, damn, man, if you were to watch a Mavericks at the beginning of these series versus the end of these series, they're just totally different basketball teams.

And Luca is a totally different beast by the time it gets. to the end of these things. Is it as simple as this is one of those teams that coming in has to see what the other team is going to throw with them before they can decide on their best mode of operation? It might be. You know, that is what we've seen so far, as you said with Dallas. They make adjustments and figure out how to optimize what they want to do on both ends of the court.

doing it again against Golden State will be interesting though because I think with their past two series, Utah, Phoenix, a bit more predictable in terms of how they operate. Whereas with Golden State, I mean, we see them on defense. They sometimes are pressuring Luca past the half-court line with Wiggins. Sometimes they're playing zone. Sometimes they're hedging on the pick and roll. Sometimes they're switching.

They drop sometimes. They were extremely aggressive with their help in some instances, but not in others. They're switching off ball with Draymond Green. There was that play where Draymond had two off ball switches in the middle, like within a eight second period, just mucking up everything Dallas wants to do. I thought it was a sensational Draymond performance on the defensive end. Like there's just, we saw the Warriors do a lot on defense. And I wonder, it felt very football-like in the way an NFL defense will, you know, switch

schemes depending on how they want to operate on a certain possession. And an NBA team, you don't normally see that. Teams stick to, you know, one style a lot of the time. But Golden State did everything. I thought it was a great, a well-coached game by Steve Kerr and his staff and well-executed by the team on the court too. So how much of that is going to maintain? Are they going to keep doing a little bit of everything throughout the series and

constantly changing up what they're doing to make Luca always have to think and the rest of the team players on that court have to think because it's not just Luca who needs to adjust to, oh, it's his own. Oh, they're hedging here. It's everybody else in the court too. And I think that for Dallas is going to be something new that they have to account for. And never mind on offense, just briefly to hit that end. When the Warriors are on offense, they're not running a ton of high pick and roll like Utah, like Phoenix. They're moving. There's motion, constantly off ball, there's so much better ball movement. And Steph Curry,

like he has that stretch on the second half, like you tweeted about it. It's like NBA jam on fire. There's literally nothing you can do about it. It doesn't matter how great you are on defense. You cannot do anything about Steph when he's in that zone. So in that sense, I think we saw some of what we talked about. We both picked Dallas,

but we alluded to how different the warriors are and how that caused problems for Dallas in game one. How they adjusts. We'll see. We don't know. We'll find out. Yeah, well, one of the things is that I would, one of the big adjustments for Dallas that needs to take place is that they score. I mean, you're never winning a game scoring 87 points, right?

Yeah. And I know that the fourth quarter was relatively useless. And I say that it just, but the truth is they are so dependent. And I felt like we saw two different finals games over the course of the past two. nights that were similar in the sense of one team was able to get that other team to miss shots, miss shots, and immediately get going the other way, right? Like I would have never suspected the point total that we saw for Miami the other night. You saw in that second half, they're turning them over, they're getting the misses.

and the same thing goes with Dallas. As soon as the pace gets up a little bit, as soon as you can start getting out in transition, playing pace and space, you are in deep trouble. Like it was Miami's best opportunity, certainly against Boston, rather than having to play against a set defense.

And while everything about the Warriors was good, including their half-court offense last night, it's still one of those cases where they're getting out. As soon as they are jumping something, as soon as they're jumping a passing lane, as soon as they're getting a long rebound, they are getting out and they are going.

And these teams, Boston, is going to be best suited to be able to play the, we run a play, you run a play type basketball. And that is absolutely true of Dallas. One of the things I said going into it, which proved to be wrong last. night, which was, you're not going to speed up Luca. You're playing the game at his pace. Now, in fairness, it wasn't some kind of track meet pace, but they were able to stay at home on shooters.

They're able to get some misses. They're gang rebounding. And, you know, he had that, he had that one segment where I feel like they really demoralized him in a way. where it was like once he found some open shooters and they missed shots and then he tried to do it himself and he turned the ball over a couple times, it felt like, all right, you're not getting the luca that you have to have. Because the truth is, it's very hard to contemplate them winning anything if he's not absolutely awesome. If he's not the best player on the floor, it's going to be hard for Dallas. It's just a matter of, can he be the best player on the floor four times?

Yeah, I mean, it would also help if teammates were just hitting some of the open three. Of course. Yeah, I mean, 11 for 48 in the game, it's 22.9%. You got Brunson at 0 for 5, Clevo, 1 for 4, Burton's 0 for 4. I mean, there was a terrible shooting performance. Bullock, 3 of 10. Luca himself, 3 of 10.

You're right though, Chris. Like, it did seem like, I think Luca made a lot of good reads, but it doesn't seem like he was totally comfortable. Throughout the game, like we see him, where he's in full command of the game, where he is the orchestrator. He controls everything that happened.

In some ways, it felt like by the warriors switching up what they were doing, sometimes hedging. Like, they weren't giving up a Steph Curry switch. Anytime Steph was brought him to a pick and roll, he's pressuring in that situation. and then doing a good job rotating back. It just seemed like constantly changing things up,

almost dictated what Luca had to do rather than him choosing what to do. Is that sort of the way you kind of saw it happen to? Yeah, and I think that so much was because of, and Jason Kitt talks about this, his press conference. You know, I like the shots that Luca got us. I agree. Accepted the pressure, kicked out,

and we just didn't make them. Exactly. And you know this. If it's, if they make 17 of 48, that's not some kind of, that's not shooting over 40%, but it's shooting, you know, in the, in the high 30s or mid 30s and it's a different world. Because if you're not, if you're getting those shots, like you said, well, then the Golden State Warriors aren't getting 20 fast break points in the game. Playing off dead balls. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. And it would make a difference. defense to be making your three-pointers. The playoffs are eating up and you can make every game feel like Game 7 on Bandul Sportsbook, an official partner of the NBA. Throughout the playoffs, all customers can place a no sweat, same game parlay every single week and you'll get up to $20 and free bets if you don't win as a refund issued

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One of the things that we've seen from Golden State is they, and this is, this is a credit to Wiggins, this is a credit to Jermon, this is a credit to Looney, all these guys. And I'm going to give you

another one who has been sneaky great at rebounding over the course of these playoffs, which is Curry. It is... A sensational. One of the things that they are so good at is rebounding your missed threes. You know what I mean?

Like they don't have necessarily this incredible size, but they put a body on guys and they also are very good at winning those 50-50s, the long rebounds, because typically your threes are going to create long rebounds. And as soon as they grab those long rebounds, they got so many different guys that can start the brawounds. and initiate the offense from there. But more importantly, they just gather them, right?

So your missed threes don't turn into offensive rebounds at the rate that you would think they would, right? Where, okay, here's somebody brick the three. Now the ball's coming off the rim. Theoretically, it's, you know, if you're crashing the offensive boards and you're sending guys, you know, you got a, you got a high percentage or at least a 50-50 chance no matter where that, wherever that ball is going to care them,

except for the fact that they're putting a body on everybody and they also are very good. When those balls are out in open space, they're very good at reacting to these long misses, which then just charges them up to go the other way. And so if you're going to be a team that goes 11 for 48, you're in deep crap because they're going to grab those rebounds and they're going to get going the other way

and now you're not getting to play any kind of set defense that you even game playing for. Right? Here's how we want to be. Like they just, they throw your crap out of the window and like you were saying with the Curry thing. When I tweeted that,

it was the one where it looks like he might go to the basket. Then he just backs that guy. There's two guys there. I didn't realize it was after. that shot. That makes total sense. Yeah. I mean, there's two guys standing there. He starts I mean, it could have been after

a bunch of shots, but that one's total, that makes total sense. He started dribbling backwards. He's, he's in front of the three point line and he's just dribbling backwards, not even like a step back. He's like literally dribbling

backwards. And then bangs at three down, like I promise you, this is not when Jason kids, you know, sitting there with this team with their game playing in the Warriors, that ain't on there. No, yeah. And in

fact, a massive part of why they beat the piss out of Dallas last night is because your defense, whatever you guys thought you were going to do it's irrelevant at this point. You're scrambling. You're

just constantly in scramble mode. It was mega impressive, for sure. Definitely, man. And like you mentioned Looney in there, too. I mean, what another great night for him, too. He survived on those switches. They were willing to switch him onto Luca,

some early switches, some late switches, like kind of out of the drop. And he did a great job in that game. And it's kind of funny, like how slow he moves. He just doesn't react to Lucas Pumpfakes. Any of the moves Luca makes, he just kind of stands there with his hands up looking all big. It's just kind of funny to watch. And some possessions, like this kind of speaks to what we were talking about

with the warriors switching things up on defense. Sometimes Looney was defending Luca in a stance, defending him either way. Other times he was trying to angle him to go left, like they've sort of done the opposite where people try to push hard in one way. It was kind of a hard-in-esque defense. And with Luca, I looked it up after the game

because I was curious, like his driving tendencies. And he scores efficiently the same way, whether he's going left or right. It doesn't matter. But in terms of volume, this entire season, when he's driving to the room, he drives to his right 14 times per game and to his left, eight times per game. And that's consistent throughout each year of his career. So by the volume numbers, there's at least a preference that Luca wants to go right. So the Warriors pushing him to go left, I thought it was just a little interesting,

strategic wrinkle that we saw on a handful of possession. throughout the game. Just another little thing the Golden State Warriors did. It's a good point. And Looney, I felt like, was able to be effective last night. He's able to be on that court

for 28 minutes for them last night. Oh, yeah. Because you had ineffectiveness slash foul trouble, real foul trouble for Cleaver. Like they got to, if they're going to, That is your, the problem that you could cause for Looney.

If you're going to try to play him off the court, that's how you're going to be able to do it. But they couldn't really do their five wide that has to be honored in the same way, right? Cleaver made it a massive problem for Aiton. He made it a massive problem the series before for Rudy Gobert. And last night comes out, he gets those three fouls. In the end, you know, it's not like he's been huge minute guy, but he's playing 18 minutes and a lot of those are later. I mean, they got to be able to play him mid-20s to 30 minutes in these games

if they want to be able to get Looney off the court. Like, he's got to be able to stand out there and bang down corner threes. Like he has. I mean, that's, it's one of the ways that they have been a real problem with their five wide thing. But you can't go five wide with him if he's giving you 18 minutes.

And honestly, it's really less than that because they were getting their ass kick by the time he even comes back in the game. Right. They got to keep him out of foul trouble. And they got to be able to keep him on the, court because he gets those three fouls and then like I said by time we even see him again they're drilled it's over I mean like they they're going way uphill against a crowd that's on

top of them steps dancing the whole nine it's like all right what's the point now you're going to mount some kind of monster comeback in this environment probably not yeah so Cleaver, they got to be able to get Looney off the court so that he just can't be there. Really? And that's the way. I mean, we've seen it. And some of those teams just went down with the, we're down with the ship. They just said, we're leaving Gobert out there.

We're leaving Aitin out there. And last night, you can't be having Looney standing. You don't want Luca, you know, having to look up and see him every time. because they don't have any other size. You know what I mean? Looney's kind of the dude. They don't really have anybody else. I saw my buddy Sam,

who's a co-host on the Light Years pod, covering the Warriors. He tweeted this. It's just a maybe thing about it. You're saying this about Looney, Chris. He tweeted some memes that Warriors made of Looney. They photoshopped him into Dennis Rodman, Kareem,

Keem and Shaq, like just wanting his face on those guys. It feels like at the last two games, watching Looney, doesn't it? Yeah. It's amazing. They, and I think about it, Kef, they don't have anybody else.

Yeah. He is important. You're right. He's important. Make no mistake. He won them game six. Everybody can give all the other guys credit. I'm talking about it against Memphis.

He won them that game. dude, 22 rebounds. Crazy. 22. Crazy. He was the major driver in a team that had 70 frigging rebounds. I've never seen that on a box score in my life.

And somebody went and looked it up, and I think it was the most in like 34 years or something for a team. And he was the major driver of that. Dallas is, they got to get him off the court. They got to find a way to be able to get him off the court. And the trick to that is Cleaver. And so, I mean, because think about who they play. I mean, Traymond's it?

They don't have any other size that they play. You know, we were talking about how maybe Wiseman could be a factor. By the time we get to, but Wiseman's not available. They don't have anybody else big on their whole team that they can run out there. And so which is available to. to create advantage for you. And obviously with Dallas, it's weird.

It's an outsized, it's an outsized effect that Max, you shouldn't need Maxie Cleaver to be that essential to what you're doing. But I really feel like in this particular series, he might be just his ability to stay on the court and enable them to spread you out. and do the five wide thing and not let Luca turn corners or get switches and seeing this mammoth of a man, Looney, who is, as you mentioned, holding up.

He's holding up on defense. Yeah, he is. And I mean, we'll see how this series adjust. And also, if you do somehow either play Looney off the floor, whatever way it might be, from attacking him and effectively doing it or foul trouble, whatever it is, that means Draymond. has so much more responsibility. That means Draymond has so much more responsibility defending at the five. And he was defending Brunson.

They had Draymond on Brunson, which isn't something I necessarily expected to see straight out of the gates in game one. And I mean, that worked, man. It worked having him on him. So if you take that off Brunson, that could open things up for him on the perimeter as a creator next to Luca. It just changes a lot of things that could work in Dallas's favor. Looney is an important guy.

You're right, first. you are. Well, and the other thing, and let me just say this on the cleaver front, they don't have any other size either. So now all of a sudden, you know what?

They got Bobat on the bench, though, Chris. They got size. Is it size that you want to play? They got the biggest guy. The only guy that, like, they have that's, like, got real size is Marquis Chris. He's big.

He's big. Which, by the way, my buddy's in Golden State, they loved him. They loved Marquise Chris. And they were like, you know, just he's, they, they, I remember they'm trying to convince me that, and it didn't take a lot of convincing, but that he was one of those guys. And this is very instructive, especially with the lottery the other night, that Marquis Chris is one of those guys that was wrong place, wrong time, wrong organization. It could have been a different world for him.

It could have been a different world for him. And instead, you know, it was just the, it was just, it was chaos. You know, it's the changing of the coaches. It's the changing of the staff. It's the changing of the personnel. it's losing every single night of your life and that Marquis, Chris, a really talented kid with the good head on his shoulders

and it could have been a lot different for him. So I thought it was interesting. I saw, I didn't even, I mean, you never see him playing for Dallas, but he came in when they were getting their ass kicked last night. I was like, huh, Marquis Chris. Interestingly enough, Golden State were the guys that, when they came to town a couple of years ago,

they were like, man, this guy is, this guy's a super sharp guy and just you know just went the wrong way at the wrong time where he got drafted and if it would have if it would have gotten drafted to a you know a really good nurturing organization he could have been a player in this league like you know significant the sons were definitely not the best place for chris to land at that time of his life and at that time of the sun's trajectory all of those guys. Yeah. There's like a whole group of them, right?

Yeah. Whether it's maybe Dragonbender's deals different. Josh Jackson's deals different, you know. Well, and that's what people are talking about right now with the Kings landing the fourth pick. Like some of the convos around the league, they're like, well, who's Sacramento going to take at that point? And like, we'll see.

Maybe the Kings can change their culture. Maybe. But they haven't thus far. So we'll see what could happen there over the course of time. But the way that happens, the way that happens. Because I actually say whatever you want, and people can roll their eyes at this. The way that happens is Mike Brown.

Yes. The Mike Brown just does it. And you can say, well, that's crazy to think that he could do that, except Monty Williams shielded all of them from, you know, all the madness. And they have undoubtedly bad ownership. But it doesn't matter. the team is the team we're insulated we're doing our thing and obviously chris helped that a great deal but money started

that right and so can mike brown just say all y'all get away let me do this right and i'm going to i mean that's the that's the that's the quest if they're if their culture is going to change it's because mike brown is able to shield off all the bullshit that sacramento has to deal with that every coach there as to deal with and just say, let me do this. It hasn't worked your way. Get away from this. And obviously, he's been,

whether it's San Antonio, Golden State, he's been around great cultures. Yeah, I mean, we'll see. Like, I think with Vivek and their ownership, they've made some poor decisions with the people that they put in charge to run the team. Obviously, drafting Bagley over Luca, it goes down as an unforgivable sin.

but like sometimes you make the right hires, you bring the right people in, and suddenly, you know, bad ownership starts to look like good ownership. So we'll see how things develop for the Kings over the coming years, and it goes without saying that this pick, the fourth pick for them is,

like they have to nail this. What I'm worried about is the fact that as I reported earlier this year, the playoff mandate that they have, Woj reported it after the Mike Brown hire, that he has come. coming in with the expectation of making the postseason. I don't think those expectations are fair, man. The West is loaded.

Like it's only going to get better. Like some of these teams are in the middle, they are only going to get better. Like the Pelicans are going to get better with Zion. You would think a team like the Lakers gets better. Are the expectations really fair for the young Sacramento Kings to make the playoffs? That's where I get a little concerned,

because that would mean at that fourth pick, rather than taking the best young prospect, maybe you're taking the more ready prospect. like a Keegan Murray. And that's where I get a little bit concerned with, you know, what the actual plan is for the coming year two or three. I honestly don't. I think if they made some smart moves, you know,

I could foresee a circumstance. And it's just a couple where you're looking up and you really like their eight guys. But I'm a Fox fan and I'm a Sabonis fan. And I think that you can, if you can flank those guys, Dave, Davion Mitchell came on at the end of the season and looked more relevant as a player. You know, they'll get DiVincenzo for a healthy year back in the mix. I mean, you know what I mean?

They got six or seven like real players. And they got some talent. You're right, Chris. You are. Yeah, they got some talent. You just got to, you got to figure out, you know, nail that pick. And then get you a couple guys, a couple really good veterans, because you want. want to change culture, that's how you do it.

You got, the culture is people and get you some real, like, I'm talking vocal, hardened veterans. We've seen those guys have an impact on franchises over and over again, whether it's, you know, the Todd Gibson's or the Pat Beverly's or the Jay Crowders or whoever it may be. You know, you try to find those guys that are out there that you bring in. and they show they show people how to work and they keep everybody in line and you can't have you know you got to have some real like solid veteran leadership in that locker room some hardcore dudes and that would I think that would change things immensely along with you know

Mike Brown being that you know respected voice for sure did you listen to the uh the draft reaction pod with me, Bill, Ryan and Kyle. So I asked the question during that pod and I was, you know, I was surprised like there wasn't like a strong response but I asked like which team in the top three would be most likely to not

take Bankero, Holmgren or Smith, the consensus top three guys. And let me add to that question. I guess which of those three teams might be most likely to trade down? And so I'm thinking about this in the context of a team like the Kings at four.

the pistons at five, the Blazers at seven, the Pelicans at eight, like which of the top three teams do you think is most likely not to select one of the consensus top three guys? Orlando, okay, C, or Houston? My,

and you're saying without trade, not trade. Either way. Either way. Let's open it up to either way. Oh, no, my reaction. My initial reaction, I do not think they'll trade the pick. But the answer is Oklahoma City.

Okay. And that's because of all these drafts in the past. And who would it be? Look, who would it be? Ivy Sharp? Like, who is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do you think? Maybe Ivy. You're right? Very interesting. I just, and again, I look at it and I say, I mean, I covered all those drafts. And people could do revisionist history.

The Westbrook thing was a shock. that year. Okay? Because he went, it went, O.J. Mayo got him taking a pick before. Kevin Love went the pick after.

Well, five. That was a shock. The Hardin thing was a shock that year. Okay? That was Steph Curry. That was,

that was Ricky Rubio. That was Johnny Flynn. Uh, that was, who else was in there? Tyreek Evans. There's a bunch of guys, and the hearted thing was a shock. And I'll give you another one that was a shock last year.

The giddy thing. People didn't have that on their box. How about poker? Shock. Yeah. Right? I mean, so the guy, you know, the one that has shocked me, you know, multiple times, that's the guy that, yes, that I would say he does not.

he's when it's come to the top of the draft he has messed up multiple drafts in terms of if you were trying to get your mock right the Westbrook thing messed it up the Hardin thing messed it up the Durant thing was a was a shirt thing right um the giddy thing messed it up I'll give you another one the Stephen Adams thing messed it up yeah A lot of people projected Adams in the 20s. He wasn't supposed to go in the lottery. Yeah. Yeah. Like he has done that a lot. He's got his own opinion. He's got his own board.

I respect that. Even if you get it wrong sometimes. Yo, he nailed all those. Yeah. He has now you get lower when you, it's not as, it's a little more bleak, right? The Mitch McGarry's, the Terrence Ferguson's, the, you know, they've had some. Of course. But they've also had...

That's true for every team. Hey. Every team. He's also had Reggie Jackson and Sir Jabaka. I mean... But this guy's got his own board. So to me, that's an easy answer. He's a wild card always.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. He is. I mean, it'll be really, really interesting with them because, like, they have so many picks already. Yeah. But, like, let's, like, I'm super high on Shaden Sharp. I know.

Like, like, let's just, let's just, let's just, let's just say he's one of the guys, right? That they really like. You wouldn't take him at two. You'd trade down to four or five. And you'd get more assets on top of what you already have. That's fair. I just think,

I just think for every team in the league that it doesn't have championship aspirations, Victor Wenban Yama in the 2023 draft is the player, these young up-and-coming teams are going to be thinking about. and if you can do everything you can and maximize your chances of getting that guy who was a franchise changer, somebody who could be one of the best players in all of basketball, I'm not sure that's the case for anybody this year.

I think there's a lot of good players and there could be some great players, but I don't think there's somebody who is like potential MVP. It's interesting because as I listen to that, I feel as if everybody accepts that at the top of the draft they're not all going to hit in a massive way. Like we just know history will generally tell us.

It has happened every once in a while. But generally, there's going to be somebody. And you know, as I have gotten older, I've become safer. about these, right? I am willing, in some cases, to allow, to not swing for the grand slam

when I know I can get, you know, a double that's going to knock me in a couple of runs, right? And I'm not saying that, you know, these are doubles or anything. I think they're all, obviously, great prospect. And they could all be great players. Like, they could all be multi-time, All-Star, multi-time, all-NBA.

there's a chance of that. Like, there is a chance. It could be a great draft class. But I'm talking MVP cornerstone type. I feel, I feel like the more concern. I think, okay, if we're doing the, like, all right,

you know how I always do my players that can't fail, right? And so if I say that guy, I think it's a hundred percent chance. He ain't going to fail. Okay. This guy's going to have like a real career. He's going to have a long career. And he might end up being a,

amazing, okay, that if we're doing those chances, right? So I take, in my opinion, I say Jabari Smith is a hundred percent. He is not failing. No chance. No chance. Only injury. Like injuries aside, you know, there's no chance skills-wise. Yes.

Six foot 10 multi-positional defender who busts his out on the floor. A crazy motor and can drain threes. I mean, there's no chance he's going to fail. He's not failing. Okay, I feel like that percentage, though, I feel like most people would say, interestingly enough, that what is right now the consensus number one in Holmgren, that people could foresee a circumstance more so with Kim that it doesn't work out unbelievably than the other two even. I think people have a little, whatever the worry scale is, a little more worry and home grin than they do Jabari or Paolo. Is that fair?

Oh, totally fair. I mean, like, look at his body. He's just so lean, so lanky. I mean, naturally, there's going to be injury concern there. With Bencaro, like, you know he's going to be a bucket getter for you. Like, Bancaro, like, his worst case scenario is that he's Marcus Morris in 10 years, you know? Like, that's really what we're talking about with Bencaro. be in the league a long time. With Holmgren, the injury concern is something so many teams have

fair or not. Historically, players that tall with that, you know, odd of a frame, there's always going to be injury concern. Medical's going to be important for him. Well, and I'm not in the, I'm not in the absolute best place to do the, the Chet Honger thing, because that is the team that Memphis played in the NCAA tournament. And there was a lot of thought going in that, all right, Now you get to see some real athletes, right? Because Memphis are just athletes on athletes. They were. Like, long guys.

And he didn't dominate by any means. He didn't dominate in that guy. I think he had eight points, eight rebounds. Yeah, I mean, his role. Yeah, the role with Timmy and all that. I get it. Yeah. Well, Timmy was a real problem. But anyways, in that particular game.

But I read something yesterday. My buddy Hollinger put out his deal about the draft. And I did not know this. And he even wrote in his article. Nobody talks about this. And I was like, and as soon as I read it, I was like, wait, what? It was the first time I had heard it. Chet is a full year older than everybody.

Yeah, he is. In his class. That is a big difference. it's a big difference when you're a year older in your class in terms of how you stack up against guys that are supposedly your age, right? Like he was playing ahead the whole time. It's like that is different. It just is.

And significantly older than, say, like a Javari, right? Because he's on the younger side of that year. But that he, that Chet Holmgren should have been a sophomore in college last year. he shouldn't have been a freshman. And so judging him against freshman, which he's always been judged on, forever.

He's been a year older than his peers. Yeah, he's like, I think, like five months older than Bancaro, a year older than Jabari Smith. I think well, I think over a year older than Shaden Sharp.

So, I mean, you know, it's a big difference with Smith, not as much with Ben Carrow, though. Yeah. But I mean, I think he is, there was somebody that was like a sophomore that I think Collinger mentioned that he is, that he's older than. There's somebody in there that's a sophomore. Maybe it was Ivy. I don't know.

I think I, I think Ivy is two months older than Homer, but like still, it's super close. Yeah, right. You said, but he was a sophomore, like you said. He had a whole year of college. Yeah. And I did, I just, I had not heard that before. I think Mathes, Mathuron, I think is the one. Okay. Who's the sophomore that's younger than Holmgren? Yes, that's right. He had that in his...

It is Mathrin. Yep. It's Mathuron. Okay. He had that in his article. But I... He was right when he wrote, people aren't talking about this.

I really hadn't heard that before. You know, the Jet was older than everybody in his grade for what it's worth. Well, that Matherin. I swear, Kev did. other night, you go watch that dude's highlights and you watch his interviews. He's nice, right? Man, I could see somebody just falling head over heels for him.

Yeah. Really. I know. Just tumbling head over heels for him. Because just the highlight package and then, you know, watching the question and answer thing, you're like, Geez, why would I not want this guy on my team in my locker room in my organization? He is something. Yeah, no, I like to listen to that a lot.

And I know you've been really high on Shaden Sharp. And, you know, it wasn't really the forum. You guys got so many people talking that it didn't give you opportunity to really push back. I, two things that stood out were, I felt like, you know, they did kind of bust up Shaden Sharp on kind of alluding to character things, but not saying it. And then, I know, that was kind of odd. Just tell me, what's his deal? I've heard Sharp as quiet, keeps to himself, but is somebody who is always in the gym.

I know it's a cliche to say, but yeah, that's not the truth with all. All these young kids, it's just not. With Sharp, I don't know, I've heard he's a worker. You like Jim Rets. And then he loves basketball. I've heard a lot of great things about him character-wise. And that gives me increased confidence in some as a person you want to bet on. But there's more to learn.

There's still more to learn. And I know like feedback from NBA teams when it comes to character always gets better after Combide Week. Because that's when they can really actually sit down and meet someone face-to-face. That's always when I think the intel gets much better. And then the assertion that he doesn't pass and then he only wants to put up his own numbers. Ryan and I texted about that a couple weeks ago

and him and I don't see that the same way necessarily. I think with Shaden Sharp, I had a conversation with somebody last night actually about Jason Tatum. And let me, like, this is what the, how that conversation was. With Tatum, he came in with the reputation of, oh, this guy is a score.

He's not willing to pass. There's a bit of a ball hog tendencies to him. But with Tatum, he was never a selfish person. It's just his role was always to score, score, score, throw his entire life until he was asked to be a playmaker. And now it's become something that he's developed, gotten better at because as a human being, it's, it's not like he's selfish. He just thought that's what he had it.

He didn't know he was being a selfish player at times. With Sharp, I see similar tendencies with him on the court. Like in the draft guide, I have a note in there about, he's a willing passer who shows an effort to pass sometimes. Like, if you pull up his high school video, there are so many instances in which he's like putting on dribble moves, goes into a potential step back, but then kicks it out to the corner three guy.

And I think those are the instances where the true ball hogs, they're jacking those shots up, you know, nine out of ten times. With Sharp, I mean, he's scoring most of the time and asks to score most of the time as he should be because he's a bucket. but I've seen enough instances with him making that extra pass that I feel good about him being somebody based also on all the feedback about character that he'll grow into somebody that does make that extra pass,

especially if he's drafted into a situation that promotes that a la Oklahoma City. If you're playing next to SGA, you're Canadian, you know, that you grew up with, and Josh Giddy and Trey Mann and all these guys on that OKC roster, I mean, you have no choice but to conform and play that style for the greater good of the team. So I think if it's the right situation and the right role, I think somebody like Shaden Sharp is going to really blossom as a passer, assuming the scoring is as great as it looked in high school.

If that continues to translate, I see this guy as somebody who, if you're taking a player outside of the top three that has a chance to be the best player in the draft, Shaden Sharp would be that guy for me. Interesting. All right. And then the other one was, the other observation from listening to it was he just had to be burning in your skin at the Moamba slander. I mean, they just take an aim at Mo. So Rudy's like, the only thing I care about is that they don't give him money. And I was like, oh, poor KOC. He's just having to sit there and take it. I took some shots this week on Twitter, on the pod for. Jake Kyle Mann mentioned Killian Hayes.

Serrity with the unintentional bombus slander. It wasn't directed at me. But I sure felt that. I was in my hotel. I, you know, I got a little sad, Chris.

We've had a bad run between me and Wiggins and you and have. We got a bad run going. You just got to sit there and take it. I'll tell you what, though, I think, I mean, Serrity and I,

you know, we've talked about Bamba before. We're on a, we're on different ends of the spectrum with Bobba. You don't say. I'm still a, I'm a Bamba believer still. You're the president.

You're the president. I am the president. And like, look, with Bamba, he's, we'll see it. I have a dream.

We'll see. I have a, I have a dream of seeing Bamba and Boll together. I got to see it. Oh, gosh. I got to see it. I was, I wasn't sure where you were going to go starting off when I have a dream.

Yo, Bamba, I want the Bamba bowl front court to make an appearance. And I'm talking both space in the floor each corner. I've just got these trees that are standing out because they can both shoot threes. Yeah, I mean, Bamba, it would be fun to watch that. Bomba shot 38% from three last year. He had his best defensive season of his career in year four, the first one after Steve Clifford had him. in his big red doghouse for three years

because he cared more about playing 40-year-old Kim Birch with no future on the team. I mean, so you tell me, you, we talk, bang, bang, bang. We talk about situation, Chris. Was Bamba drafted into the optimal situation? Regardless of how you feel about him as a prospect today,

was he drafted into the optimal situation? The answer is no. It's obviously no. No. Everybody can agree it was no. Agreed. It should have been FC Barst. alone.

Sorry. That is so hyperbolic, but I understand why you took the opportunity to dunk there. I understand. But, you know, with Bombop, all I'll say is this is whether, like, let's say the magic go with Jabari Smith.

Because if you look around at mock drafts, I had home room number one for magic. But a lot of people have Jabbar. Smith, and I've heard, you know, Smith could, I mean, certainly isn't that conversation for them. If they go somebody that's not Holmgren, I just look forward to seeing Bamba in a better situation, whether it's in Orlando or a team that says, yeah, we want to give the seven-footer with the seven-eight wingspan that you can shoot threes, and it started hustling more consistently a chance with a second deal.

I just look forward to seeing him in a better situation before I say, you know what, I was dead wrong about Bamba because I still have a little bit of belief, Chris. All right. Thank you. Thank you. It's fair. Thank you, Chris. I want your approval.

Look, if you love, if you, if you love guys, I am never going to bag on you for saying it could break their way. How many times do we have to learn that you are not? So if we are to evaluate you after three and four years sometimes, it's not fair. If you would have, if you would have evaluated Draymond Green after his first three or years. You certainly would have never thought that he's an integral piece to five-time finals, that whole kind of thing. Well, the fourth year. The fourth year was when they won that. And the same thing, well, the same thing, the first three years. The same thing was when he's playing

behind David Lee. Nobody could have seen all of us coming. Yeah. Kawhi Leonard, same way. It took a little bit. It takes time for guys. You know, I mean, I'm talking about it. And those are, those are great, great players. But even Jordan Poole, like, Jordan Poole now, like, I was telling William, my son, the other night, I said, we got to go back to all the common cards. Because we would have just, we threw Jordan Pool in the comments. Like that was like a butt. You know what I mean? If you opened up a packet, you got a Jordan Pool, I was like, I was looking online.

These Jordan Pool rookies are going. Yeah. Like they're like worse something now. And it's like nobody wanted that back in the day. I mean, even with Jordan Pool, situation is so important. Can you imagine if Jordan Pool didn't fall in? into the Warriors system playing their style that is taken away some of his worst habits that he had at Michigan as a ball stopper who didn't put an effort on defense. And at least now he's

trying on defense. He makes the extra pass. I mean, if you fall into the right situation with the right role and the right teammates around you and the right coach and mentors, you can change who you are as a young player. And I just hope for some of these guys struggling early, they're able to find that, including Bobaba. Well, and look, this past summer, I told you, because I had some people out there in L.A., pool, it was pool and Clay working out together the whole summer. It's invaluable. You know what I mean? You're soaking that in, and you're getting to work out with Clay Thompson, who's going to be in the Hall of Fame.

You get to work out with him every single day and see what that's like. See how he works out. Working out with him, you know, and understanding of gleaning. Yeah, that's just, you can't put a value on that, really. And that speaks to pull the person, the open-mindedness, the willingness to change. He's a sponge, man. Like, you can just see it the way he moves on the court on offense. He wasn't like this at Michigan.

But, like, he said to me in the interview we published on the ringer a couple weeks back, you know, I just watched with Steph and Clay and Draymond and all these guys do, and I just copy them. I just do what they do because it works for them. It's going to work for me. in this environment. And you got to really give it to guys that make the most of their situations like he has. It's really cool to see.

Obviously, game one of the Boston Miami series has been analyzed to death at this point. We're a couple of games or a couple of days removed from it. Game two is, of course, tonight, the day of recording. That second half, I mean, that was like you, had taken five pit bulls and you had stuck them in a cage and you haven't let them eat for 36 hours and you just popped open the cage. They came out and it is, that was the heat at their absolute apex. I mean, as locked in as you could possibly be physical, just, you know, you get the other team just rattled, turning the ball over, not doing it.

There is no space because they're just switching. They're all on a string. Even when you go to the basket, you know, freaking bam's pinning it against the basket. They're passing you off to another defender who's staying in front of you. And they were able to grab those rebounds. They were able to get in those passing lanes. and get easy bucket, easy bucket, easy bucket in transition against Boston. You know, Boston has got to make them play in that half court.

And yeah, they've got hero who can create his own shot. But, I mean, they really have to do that in many cases as a collective. And there were a couple different times in that game where Boston would get going. And you would see Spolcher on the sideline. and it's something for it's either up for or down for whatever but he makes a call and you could tell he'll notice when he makes the call it's basically just throw jimmy the damn ball and let him go get a bucket right to clear out like let me this is that's his possession and he's the run stopper but jimmy get the ball clear i mean that's like their most effective thing that's what

they go to when they've got to get a bucket right is jimmy go get a bucket But you saw this in the Milwaukee series, too. Like, Boston can't be loosey-goosey with the basketball. They can't be throwing the ball around the yard. They can't be letting Miami get up and down the court in transition because now all of a sudden not only are they getting an easy bucket, they're getting to set up their defense on the other end. And so I just thought it went, obviously,

all wrong for Boston and I thought they were shell shocked I thought they missed Horford and smart for sure and now you look at it you know you think they're going to make adjustments for sure as they have

throughout the playoffs and then you get the news this morning that for personal reasons Derek White's out and we've talked about this is not a team that has a lot of depth and I mean they need Derek White they need good Derek White against Miami so that they can't let

Pritchard get targeted Yeah Pritchard Pritchard had a big red bullseye on him in that fourth quarter You know I think there's a big difference between Peyton Pritchard at 30 minutes and Peyton Pritchard at 10 to 15 Yep There's a dramatic difference and so Boston seems like

they're going to get Marcus Smart back in game two But now you lose Derek White which means that they're still going to be more Pritchard, maybe Neesmith out there. You know, it's, and obviously without Horford, it's still going to be a lot of Daniel Tice coming off the bench. So for Boston, you're right. Like, you take out a couple of guys.

It's a shame that Horford tested positive. It's a shame that, you know, they have guys missing. But, you know, I think still, though, that Boston can still considering losing those guys on the day of game one, losing by 11, like I said, on Bill's pod isn't that bad in Miami it's not that bad but like this heat team with Jimmy Butler

his ability to get to the room at will I thought he was outstanding Marcus Smart is going to have to have a really strong game for them on defense to help contain Butler and switch more screens too for that matter as well I think you also saw those heat guys you know and look I've been a fan of the heat

all season but you picked them to go to the finals before the season yeah but the game Vincent and I don't expect that to, you know, he was awesome. He was absolutely awesome. And you got like real contributions for some other dudes in that game. And I think that much like we saw in that game seven for Boston where it's like Grant Williams going crazy and Peyton Pritchard having a significant impact and all that kind of stuff. I do think with just the physicality that Boston plays or that Miami plays with that the Horford thing is.

I do think it's significant. I do. Oh, 100%. Right. I know that there's the common refrain that they can get by without Horford, but the smart thing is a killer. Like, I don't know, man. They are, they're a rugged team.

And I want the Al Horford's of the world in there fighting. And setting the screens and matching that. By the way, you mentioned knee-smith, who made an appearance. I mean, just not, he's been a witness protection. You've watched a lot more Celtics than I have this season. Bro, does he do that? The, the freaking block? Is that, was, did, it was everybody like, what the hell?

Not like that, no. Okay, so everybody was like, what the hell was that? Yeah, everybody was like, what the hell was that? Okay. That was awesome. I was like, I was like, is that his thing? He could do this? I was like, I thought he was just a friggin' shooter.

How many? So, okay, so he plays, in that game one, he played 11 minutes and had three blocks. During the NBA regular season, he played a grand total of 574 minutes. How many blocks do you think he had in 574 minutes? Dude, if you say three, I'm going to lose my mind. I'll say 10. Five. He had five.

In the whole year? But still, so he had three in 11. minutes of game one and they had five and 574 minutes throughout the entire season. That's nuts. Hustling too. Yeah. That was a dude that like wanted some playing time. Oh, totally.

Because damn, man, I was like I know that, you know, got the put back on the one, but that block was awesome chased out. You know what I mean? I'm like, I didn't know this was

a nemes deal that this happens with him. But I feel validated. It doesn't happen with him. He's five the whole year. I just saw. I mean, that's like, that's where you can get a little deceived, right? Where it's like, when we always talk about this is instructive towards the draft. If I'm putting together his video or his free agent video, why you?

you want Aaron Neesmith, like all three of those blocks are in the video and you're like, holy shit, this guy does it on both ends. It's like the, for the music, for the highlight, really, you have like tool in the background. How did he only

block five shots all year? Is the question. What were you doing, buddy? He obviously can. He's long. He's got late. Yeah. Oh, well. You think Boston even it up. It's a tough road without

White now. They need that. They need all the depth they can have and they're down too now. Right? That's an awful lot to put on. No Horford no Horford. No Horford and no Derek White

and you only play seven, eight guys anyway. That's tough. And who knows? What percentage do you get a Marcus Smart? Do we get the freaking Kyle Lowry version of Marcus Smart, right? Which is, okay, it's the playoffs, so he's gutting it out,

but he probably shouldn't because he's a, you know, a very reduced version of self. Or do we get the full Marcus Spark, you know, experience? The defensive player of the year stuff. We don't know. We don't know. And we'll find out. But all I know is everything we saw in game one,

like we talked about on Bill Spod, they better get normal Marker Smart. they need them. I think it's going to be very tough for Boston to even it up without Horford and White. Yeah. I think if smart is his full self, that could be enough.

Like I think even just, I brought this up on Bill's Pod, but like just simply having him bring the ball up the floor so Tatum isn't having to deal with ball pressure all game long, that in and of itself would be a great benefit for the Celtics offense. And one thing to pay attention to, My guy at shot quality, I went and pulled it up.

That was a shot quality upset. And I'm always very aware of this because sometimes your eyes can deceive you, you know, based upon the shots that were taken in that game, on average, Boston wins that game. I was very surprised by that, very surprised by that. But, you know, you're a lot. home. Some of these guys, the Gabe Vincers of the world, knocked down shots that maybe they don't on average.

Obviously, look, you kind of break in a matrix when Grant Williams takes 18 3s in a game too. So these games aren't played on paper. But if they were, Boston, based upon the way that played out, Boston would have won, which was shocking to me. I can't. I mean, that's what the computer says. It says. I've been in Miami since Saturday. I'm ready to get out of here. Too hot. I mean, I'm ready for a change of scenery.

I'm going back to Boston tomorrow. I'm going to see my mom for the first time since December. I'm very excited for that. It's the longest we've been without seeing each other. So I'm looking forward to seeing her going to games three and four in Boston for Celtics Heat. Then going back to L.A. next week in the comfort of my own apartment to record these. Once you're in a hotel for a long time. Yeah, it's really not even the humidity.

The humidity is a part of it. But, like, just being in hotels for too long of a time, I'm ready for, I'm ready to see something new. I'm with you. All right. It's going to be a good weekend, though, Chris. We're recording, are we recording next Tuesday? What are we doing? What's our next show for next?

So we're doing Tuesday morning, just for the listeners. So next Tuesday morning and maybe we'll do night for the one after that, something like that. So then you can get the feed, the pot in your. And you're in your feet in the morning. Maybe we'll do next Wednesday night because that will be after game five of Heat Celtics. Assuming it goes five. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you're technically correct.

Technically. You are technically correct. Thank you to our executive. I don't think the NBA is going to let that happen, though. You think the NBA is going to let any sweeps happen? Chris, what do you think? No way. No way.

Thank you. Our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. And we will talk to you next week. Have a good one, everybody.