The Mismatch - Welcome Back Klay, Real Ones in the West, and the Ben Simmons Trade Machine

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

Verno and KOC discuss Klay Thompson's exciting return to the hardwood over the weekend (00:56). With Klay back, the guys debate which teams in the West are for real (11:27). The Raptors are riding a six-game win streak entering Tuesday night’s game versus the Suns, so the guys discuss the Raptors' turnaround and Fred VanVleet’s All-Star season (21:42). The Joel Embiid superstar experience is here, as he’s helped the 76ers win eight of their past nine games (27:46). The Hawks are the latest team to be linked to Ben Simmons, so the guys debate what would be the right trade to benefit both franchises (34:06). With the trade deadline a few weeks away, they take a look at where Myles Turner could go and debate whether the Kings are going to have a fire sale or make a push for a playoff spot (47:02). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Top MMA voices, Ariel Hawani, Chuck Mindenhall, and Pizzie Carroll are live on the Spotify Greenroom app for every major MMA card with the Ringer MMA show. Here the guys react to weigh-ins in real time and find out what they think of the fights the moment the final card ends. Plus, when breaking MMA news happens, they'll be live to talk to you about it. And if you miss the green room show, you can hear it as a podcast anytime on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Misfatch.

I'm Chris Vernon. And join me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com. is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Colns, Kevin O'Colns, Kevin O'Colns, Kevin O'Contin, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin. Burdow! It's Tuesday. What's going on, my friend? How are you doing? Well, I'm doing great. I'm super excited because since we last spoke, Clay Thompson made his return to the court. And luckily, The second game back is going to be tonight in Memphis, Tennessee, when the Golden State Warriors take on the red-hot Memphis Grizzlies. This actually turns out to be an amazing game in the midst of the schedule

because the Grizzlies have won nine games in a row, and now they are facing the team that has been outstanding and just got back one of their best players. Clay Thompson, and let's start with Clay. I was excited to watch this the other night, and I think everybody that is an NBA observer wanted to see what he would look like. It had been so long since we had watched Clay Thompson play basketball. He has overcome and rehabbed two different, really bad injuries.

and I don't know how you felt. I thought he looked great, all things considered. It wasn't exactly, you know, the best offensive game you've ever seen, but watching him move defensively, and then just the moving around screens, the dunk on everybody, even the first play coming around a curl and going to the basket and kind of floating in the air. Like, I kind of felt like if you didn't tell me that the guy had lost two seasons to basketball,

I wouldn't have noticed. Yeah, there seemed like another good clay game. It wasn't an outstanding clay game, but we will see those. And, I mean, with Clay, I think defensively, he got blown by a couple of times, but he also had a place switched on to having Mobley where he battled and took every single, every single push that Mobley made trying to back him down. and the fight that he's always had was there. The shooting ability he always had was there.

The ability to have that like slow crossover on that dunk and then the mean grin, the mean mug that he had turning back. I mean, with Clay, it just seemed like Clay Thompson was out there. It's as if nothing changed with him. And the great games will come. I mean,

I kind of felt a little bit of emotion watching him, Chris, honestly, because 941 days, I was in the arena that last time. And I always remember just when he came out to shoot those two free throws, how loud it was at Oracle. Now across the street at Chase Center, a lot of things have changed since the last time we saw Clay play basketball. But Clay Thompson, it doesn't seem like he's changed. Well, and just watching him, the major thing to me was the ability to drive and go to the basket, because that is the concern.

Look, Clay Thompson is one of those guys that is going to be able to shoot a basketball. ball until he's 90 years old. Years ago, when I first started in the media, Jerry West was the general manager of the Grizzlies. And every once in a while, if you hung around like after practice or if we were in the gym, you know, everybody's just kind of meandering about. He would be out there talking to somebody and a ball would bounce over there. And there was one time he was out there.

And I mean, I'm talking, he's probably, I don't know, mid to late 60s at the time. Kevin, it was automatic. Like, no misses. No rim. Like every time he shot it. Boom. Boom.

Boom. And I would guess he probably hadn't touched a basketball. I don't know when the last time. It's not like Jerry West still played. You know what I mean? And it's just one of those. And that's kind of how I think about it when I think about Clay Thompson. Clay Thompson is going to be 80 years old.

Like the muscle memory, he is going to be able to just drain shots till the end of time. But are you going to be able to drive to the basket? Because you're a much different player if you're just a shooter, right? And that was the thing to me. He looked athletic. You know, I mean, he's never been a match. massive above the rim player, but the fact that that is,

you know, that he was comfortable enough to drive. And they say, from some of the things that I read, that, and we, you and I talked about this, there was the luxury of him

being able to not be 100%, but 110 or 120%, because their record was so great. And I believe it was Nick Fidel talked about how, he and Kevin Durant had talked a bunch and they are still friendly and Durant had told him, you know, do not rush this. Take your time on this.

And so it's been nice to see both KD come back because it was not long ago that Achilles felt in many ways like a basketball death sentence. You were never going to be the same. Even if you came back, you know, you weren't, you were never going to be what you were. And KD. has been obviously amazing. And you wouldn't know that he had an Achilles injury. And let's hope the same is true of Clay. But I don't know. My first impression was he looked like Clay Thompson to me, you know.

I mean, let's hope the good health continues for Clay. you never know if things can just fall apart but ultimately i mean like the warriors they operated extremely cautiously here with clay i mean as you said they had no reason to rush him back and they didn't rush him back um they his clay's team as well as the warriors have waited as long as they possibly could until it made sense so you just have to trust that and with clay now he returns and he seems to be healthy it seems like you know the achilles injury is no longer a death sentence. As you said,

assuming Katie continues in good health and great elite performance, assuming Clay does as well. And so for the Warriors now, you know, they're 30 and nine tied with Phoenix in the top of the Western Conference. And they just got Clay Thompson back for his first game. And granted, Draymond is going to be out for a little bit.

He's sitting Tuesday night against Memphis. But like this team, like we haven't quite seen it still yet. Because Draymond only played five seconds for the opener on Sunday for Clay. He won't play Tuesday. We still haven't seen this team at full strength. But we are really about to see, though, Steph, Clay, and Draymond with Andrew Wiggins playing at like a borderline, all-star level at this point.

Like, we joked about Wiggins when the trade first happened, Chris. No, nobody could have seen him turning into the player that he has with Gold State at this level with this consistency. You got a deep bench pool going in the bench. Peyton, Porter, Iguodala. Is this team the clear favorite, Chris? How about this? And here's one that you have not mentioned,

which under any other circumstance would be a massive deal. The number two pick from last year's draft is about to come back too. It's like James Wiseman doesn't even exist. It's the weirdest thing. like usually, right? It's like that is just a luxury for them. And I know that people got down on James' first year. He is a seven-footer that runs the four.

When you're talking about that being a possible backup center, when you talk about that being a useful piece slash luxury that you don't necessarily need yet is available to you, when you're going up against and you think about some of the best teams in the West, most exclusively that other team with 30 wins. You don't think James Wiseman is useful against Phoenix? Running up and down with DeAndre Aiton? I mean, he's right around the corner from coming back too.

So it's not just Clay. It's Wiseman. Look, there's no question. If they reach, if everybody stays healthy and they reach their potential, to me, there is a collision course between those two teams. And you never know the way this stuff is going to play out. It takes one injury to derail it for anybody. And I'm going to see Golden State tonight in person for the first time.

And it's not going to be necessarily fair without Draymond. But the best team that I have seen this year was Phoenix. I thought that was the best basketball team that I saw. Just all the pieces, kind of how they're interchangeable, what they can do defensively. I thought that was the best team that I have seen. And so I'll stick with that right now, but there's no question that we have not seen the full version of Golden State, and if they are the full version and they are able to remain healthy, then I don't know, favorite, but I'd certainly say co-favorant. I think that anything other than

those two teams meeting up would be a big upset in my mind. And I'm including Utah, I'm including Memphis, I'm including everybody else. Those two teams not meeting up in the West Finals, if you asked me today, an upset. A big upset took place. And that's not going out on a limb because there's the top two seeds right now. But sometimes there are the lower ones. And I've changed a lot as the season goes on. The Lakers are not going to be there, bro.

Like, that's not that. Yeah, I mean, we're starting to see some tiers develop here. Golden State, Phoenix, both 30 and 9. Utah, three back, 28 and 13. Memphis three and a half back, 28 and 14. There's five games in separation between Memphis at the four seed. and Dallas at the five. There's a bit of a drop off there.

Are those four teams up top? Are they, you know, I mean, I know like you put Gold State and Phoenix ahead of Memphis and Utah, but like are those four teams like truly separated or does like a Dallas, you say the Lakers don't have a chance? No, those four teams are not separated. No. And then this is why I say this. I think the two are separated.

Phoenix and Gold State are and then then everybody else. Jazz, Grizzlies, maths, Nuggets, Lakers. Yeah, if you told me the Nuggets beat the Jazz in, you know what I mean, if that's 6-3 or if the Clippers got back Kauai or the Lakers or whoever. Like I think that all those others, I could foresee a circumstance where if the Nuggets get Murray back and the Clippers get Kauai back, I mean, look, this West is going to get much, much deeper as the year goes on and guys get their teams get their guys back. You know, you add Kauai Leonard to the Clippers and you add Jamal Murray to the Nuggets.

It's a different deal here. And that Mavericks team has been playing great basketball and has been awesome defensively. And I know you got a pod coming up with our buddy Charks later this week that you're going to be talking about Dallas. But Dallas has really gotten going. And as the season goes on, inevitably Luke will get in better shape. still he's still the guy that in a playoff series, no matter who was on the other side, could be the best player in a playoff series.

That's what Charks says on the pot on Wednesday. Charks is like, Charks is like, do people realize the level of basketball with that Clippers, Maverick series last year where Kauai's like reaching deep into his bag? Luca's averaging over 35. I mean, Luca, despite some of the flaws and despite some of the criticisms,

still, he plays himself in a shape, but it's still like an all-N-B-A MVP caliber talent. And this to me is extremely easy to validate in the sense of those two teams, Phoenix made it to the West Finals last year. Golden State went to the finals five times and won three titles with, you know, the three guys that are going to be out there.

So they all have their bona fides. When you look down further than that, right now, Utah has not been out of the first round. So you can't believe in them until they do it. Memphis is so far ahead of where anyone expected them to be. But they played in a first round matchup against that jazz team last year, and they lost that. And so while Utah has been able to win in the first round, they haven't been able to, you know, advance after that. They haven't played in the finals yet.

You know, the rest of those teams, the Clippers, they were a massive disappointment even when we saw them altogether as a unit. And then Denver is the one, you know, that actually has some bonafides where you feel like, okay, they've been in some really hard fall playoff series. They've got scars. You know, Dallas, they got some scars, but they still haven't been out of the first round. So I'm just saying there's only two of those. And look, LeBron and they get LeBron and A.D. healthy.

That team stinks. But that is a formidable force if those two are healthy, regardless of the three whoever's around them. and it's still going to be a problem to defeat him four times in seven games. So I just think this all gets way, way deeper, but I do think there's co-favorits that I would put way ahead of everybody else right now. I think that's a very, very, very fair and thorough stance. I mean, I think, like, you were nailed up there with those teams being separated from everybody else.

I still think I like some of what we're seeing from the Lakers' Mark. more than a lot of people do. I mean, I know, like, I feel like I'm, everybody's zgging and I feel like it's as if I'm zagging, but I can only feel how I feel. And I think with LeBron at the five, if, if, like, I'm going to qualify it, if AD returns and if he stays healthy, and if he looks like the AD of old, once that LeBron at center lineup becomes something that you do when it makes sense to do, rather than something that you're doing all the time is your default starting lineup, I think things are going to click into a place into a different type of way for the Lakers than what it looks like right now,

where they're losing against the good teams like Memphis, and they're struggling against, where they're losing against the good teams and they're only beating the bad opponents. I think they're still trending up and they figure some things out with that small ball lineup. So I said everything that I said, but here's the truth, Kevin. It's very difficult to foresee a circumstance where the Grizzlies ever lose a game again. And if that is so, then the championship is on the horizon.

It's one. It's over. It's time to end the season. Just pres simulate to free agency. That's what we're going to do here. And there was a 21 to zero run late in the fourth quarter by all the backups in that Lakers game. The Grizzlies could have named their number. They could have beaten them by 40 or 50 or whatever they wanted to.

and they were way under LeBron's skin. He was going crazy. They chose eight. That's the number they chose to win by eight. Well, it was a 21 to a zero run at the end, Austin Reeves and Wayne Ellington, you know, at the end of that game. Did he get nervous at all? Did you just sweat a little bit?

Absolutely not. Now, LeBron was furious with the Grizzlies. They really get under his skin. He told them that they talked to. much. And there was an executive in the athletic last week that said they talked the most shit in the league. I like it. I like it. They're young

and they run their mouth the entire time. Bain talks. I mean, he talked trash with Josh Green at a press conference weeks ago. Big time. And they look, they've been backing it up. And the Marant blocked

the other night. Oh my goodness. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. It looks like it was out of a video game, didn't it? The only other time that I've ever been like, what the hell just happened? Was when he tried to jump over Kevin Love. Oh, yeah. He almost completed the most amazing dunk in the history of the NBA.

If he really does go completely over. Because Vince Carter's over Fred Weiss, that happened in international basketball. This would have been in an NBA. setting. And if he completed that dunk while jumping completely over Kevin Love did that, but that's the last time where, and he does the most spectacular things I have ever witnessed a basketball player do in person, but that block and the fact that he hit his face on the backboard, I mean, he had a dunk later in the game where his whole head was completely above the rim,

and it wasn't the best highlight from the game. The two-handed block as he is, and I even saw, like, even last night, I was watching the national championship game, the college game, and I saw a tweet come across my timeline. Someone had retweeted it, and it said, something to the effect of, I don't know how I'm just seeing this, but this is insane.

And it had like the head exploding emojis. And it was Patrick Mahomes talking about it. Like the whole world, to be talking about a block in a regular season game, that's how you know. When Patrick Mahomes is tweeting about it a day later, that's what you know. And he better start the awesome.

star game. I think he's going to, but right now it's Curry and I believe it was Luke on first draw. But I think by the time it's all said done, it'll get to start the all star game. Moran? Yes. Moran will be an all star. No doubt about it. Start. Start the all star game. Yeah, I mean, we'll see how the fan vote goes and all that too. That's what it's dependent upon. Should be. I mean, we'll see how media votes as well, for that matter, but I mean, he should be a starter. And I think that after, I think after the more viral moments you have, the easier it is to become an All-Star, right? Dude, I mean, like that was just nuts. It only would have been better if, like, he fully caught the ball despite his face hitting the backboard.

Yes. And he was trying to. Yeah, I mean, just the way he even just kind of like paced his steps in preparation of his leap, his launch, his takeoff. I mean, he knew he knew he was grabbing that basketball. He knew it before everybody else did. And he has been outrageous. They went and they beat the Clippers. They beat the Lakers.

They've won nine in a row. And it sets up that game with the Warriors, which is going to be an amazing game going on tonight. I mentioned the Suns as a co-favorit. How about the Raptors? I saw that game is tonight. This is going a little under the radar. But the Raptors have a chance to win, I believe it's seven in a row now. Seven in a row, yep.

And they play Phoenix. So you've got two of these teams that have these. long windstreaks playing on their home floors, playing, you know, simultaneously the two best teams in the West. So with Memphis playing against Golden State and Toronto playing against Phoenix. And you better believe people are sought to perk up if the Raptors knock off Phoenix tonight as part of that win streak. because they have really gotten going and put themselves in a much more secure spot as we're now about midway through the season. Yeah, and with Toronto, they're in a situation right now where in their six-game win streak, five of the games have been at home. And what we're seeing teams do is they're not sending, for the most part, all of their starters across the border.

A lot of their players are resting, like Utah barely sent anybody. They had Jared Butler and Trent Force starting in their back court, White Side at Center. You know, they beat the Pelicans, they beat the NICs. The schedule that they've had recently has not been amazing for Toronto. However, the flip side of that, you can say they have a weaker schedule at home and that they're facing depleted opponents, but you could also say for the first time all season, Toronto has their seven, eight best players healthy.

Van Fleet is a different player as of late. They have upped his usage to a superstar level, and he's performing like a superstar as well, averaging over 30 points the last six games, but it actually goes back to mid-December before he was out for a short amount of time. So Van Fleet is playing in an elite level right now. The Raptors are healthy. They're playing their lineups with five guys who are all 6-7, 6-8, 6-9,

super versatile. The Raptors right now feel like a different team from what we saw earlier in the season, despite some of the circumstances. And with this schedule coming up, Phoenix tonight at home, and then they have eight of their next 10 games on the road. We're about to find out who the Toronto Raptors really are. And I'm betting that they're at least better than they were early in their season. And I am fully, fully all in on Van Blee as an All-Star. Well, he just won player of the week. So it was good to get that kind of recognition. As you mentioned, he has scored 31 or more in six of the past eight games. And in the past eight games, starting December 14th, he is averaged 30.6 points per game on 47% shooting,

46% from three. All right? And that game the other night, the Sunday game, he had 32 points in a season best, eight three-pointers in that game. And you mentioned getting their guys back. Siakum looked like you can bag on who the opponent was, but he had 29, 10, and seven assists. He's looking a lot like more Pascal Seacom for quite some time now.

I mean, isn't it kind of funny the way kind of perception can change? Seaccombe, you know, is thought of extremely highly that he has a stretch where he struggling. And now, like, there's kind of a stage of his career where I'm not sure people have caught up that Pascal Seaccham is fully back. He's back. And he has had five or more assist in seven straight games. It's a big number, right? He's playing. He's playing high level basketball, man. And like, I know it's an empty arena in Toronto and all that, but this, some of this stuff stems back to before this recent stretch in an empty home arena. Like, See, Ackham's been good all year long.

Van Fleet's been good all year long. He's just gotten even better, and the team is actually healthy now. So like I said, I don't know if Toronto is like, you know, a six-game winning streak level of goodness, but they are good. Yeah, it's going to be, this will be a good gauge because the son's got all their guys back. They got Aitin back. They got Aitin back. They got Javall McGee back. And they're sending everybody tonight.

Phoenix going to have a full roster across the border. I mean, they had all those guys back against the heat. Now, they lost that game, but they did have those guys because they finally cleared health and safety protocol. Aiton, Crowder, and McGee were all back in the fold. Yeah, I think only, I just looked it up, only Cam Johnson will be out due to an ankle spring. So Phoenix is going to pretty much be full health. And for what it's worth, I mean, I think as, I mean, how many players have been in protocols, like a third of the league, half the league? and it's like a constantly increasing amount.

Over the next couple of months after this stretch, a lot of teams aren't going to have to worry as much about setting people across the border or anywhere for that matter if they've already had it and they're vexed and boosted. So we're about to enter a stretch. It has felt like it died down a little bit. Yeah, there will be less guys and protocols moving forward.

I mean, we went through about a week there where, you know, much like during the trade deadline or free agency, the Wojin Shams are battling, you know, for news. Like, who's going into health and safety protocols? I swear to God, it was, I mean, I've got those notifications so that I could see the breaking news. And it was like back and forth every day for about two straight weeks all day.

Yeah, it's something else. Yeah, it was nonstop. And it has slowed down. And, I mean, it's slowing down in some countries right now that were further ahead of the head of the U.S. We'll see how things develop. Another team that has been very hot is the Philadelphia 76ers. And they've been off fire.

And Embed has been playing at a crazy level, Kev. And, you know, these last 10 games, 31, 8 and 6, 31, 12, and 7, 31, 5, and 4, 31, 15, and 10. 10, 34, 7, and 1, 36, 11, and 4, 36, 13, and 2 blocks, 41, 10, 5 blocks, 32, 9, 6, 6. Like, he is, this is crazy. These numbers are just freaky. And, you know, they keep on winning, and it is because of him. Now, there's another guy that's having a great. season kind of under the radar. And that's Curry's brother, Seth Curry, is another one,

because Tobias Harris numbers are down. But we have gotten the full-on Joe L.M.B.'s superstar experience over the past 10 games. And it does put Philly in a different spot as the topic that always comes up with them is how are they going to improve? What will they do this year? How does the Ben Simmons fiasco end? But whatever you're doing with it, you're adding to a guy that is playing at beyond an MVP level. I mean, that is every night.

I mean, Embedde is constantly building. Every single year, Embedit has gotten better. I mean, like, trace it back, whether it's the improvement of his jump shot, the improvement of his feel out of the post when he gets double teamed, his passing this year. He's bringing up the ball more often going coast to coast after some defensive rebounds. Like, he's constantly experimenting, even with the stuff that doesn't work. Like I mentioned him bringing the ball up the court, he's taking the ball up the court sometimes and taking some pull-up threes as a seven-footer, nearly 300 pounds. and he's making nearly 40% of his catch and shoot threes. He just does everything on the offensive end of the floor and anchors the defense.

With him now playing at this level, back to the guy that was an MVP candidate we saw last season, except even better, except even better than last season. Philly suddenly is looking like they're in a position now. The roster is starting to take some shape. They just, they need to find something for Ben Simmons that makes sense to do. did you see over the weekend really this past week sam amic at the athletic said uh no mark stein was the first to say i believe that Atlanta is a team to watch for ben Simmons um shams and others at the athletic followed up this week saying that it could be like a john collins he's unhappy he could go back to philly cam renish's name has been involved in a lot of different stuff is there

i mean is there a poetic trade to make to send ben simmons to Atlanta the place where this all unravel. Is there something that makes sense for Philly? So the way that works is somebody reports it. So Stein kind of throws out Atlanta. And then everybody starts calling around. And then as

of yesterday, or the day before, Brian Winhorse and Mark Spears say that I guess they had talked to people on the Atlanta side. And they had thrown out there that they kind of like talked about it and it seemed as if that in the absence of Daryl being able to get one of these like number one guys, these, you know, one of the top 30 players in the league, whatever you want to say, was the kind of the line in the sand that he had drawn at one point, that now one of the motivations was, all right, if I'm not going to be able to do that, then I got to get off the Harris contract.

and they presented a scenario where... So I didn't know they talked about that on the pod because I've heard that too, packaging Harris with Simmons. So they presented a scenario where Travis Slink is, they're like, yeah, okay, let's talk about Ben Simmons and let's see how we can put this together because they got a bunch of stuff. They got expirings, you know,

they got Solomon Hill, Lou Williams, those guys expirings. They got the Gallinari thing. They've got Reddish. They've got John Collins, as you mentioned. and they are really underachieving so far this year. But that you can have these conversations, and then it's like,

Daryl's like, okay, but we want to get rid of Harris too in the deal. And then, like, you know, if you're like Travis Schlinger, I don't want to buy his hair. Like, that's not, I'll talk to you about Ben Simmons. I don't want, so the idea that was presented was, it'll take a third team. maybe a third team gets involved in something that makes that happen.

And clearly one of the teams to keep an eye out for in all those kind of deals. Because look, packaging Simmons and Harris is like $70 million. It's $68.9 million. Almost $69. But you have to have in terms of like the money and the way that works out, you have to have 56 million players to trade. Okay, so that's very difficult. No, it's doable.

I mean, like, it is doable if you, it's just those two teams because of the Gallinari contract, that being in there as well. Like, it is doable with Atlanta. 56 is top. 56 is a tough number to get to. Yeah, it's a tough number to get to, but you can get to it if you're Atlanta. They're one of the few teams that could. Is a three-way deal more likely in that scenario?

Maybe. but but like forget about like how difficult it is to do you know like it is doable like there is there is a deal to be made which is why I'm curious like just talking about the guts of the deal like forget about the other stuff like the guts of a deal is there something that makes sense involving a john colin's cam reddish a bogdan bogdan bogdanovitch is is there a foundation there for a hawks sixers deal that makes sense for both teams I think there is interesting I mean one of the teams to watch is Oklahoma City if there's a third because they're below the floor. They're like 20 million below the floor.

Forget about the extra stuff. I'm talking the foundation of a deal. British. Can you put together $56 million of players? Yes, you can. I'm telling you you can. You can. Easy. It's not hard to do. Okay, do it. Okay, let's do it right now. All right. We'll do it. John Collins. What's the number? What's the number? Here's what we need. If we send out, Harris and Simmons to the Hawks. And then we get back Gallinari, Collins, and Reddish. You need a little bit more salary.

You need a, maybe a Dallon, right? Let's send Dallon right in the deal as well. And now we have a four for two. This is in a situation where it does work financially. You can send back two league minimum players, a Charles Bassi, maybe in Isaiah Joe. I know, I know, I know six fans wouldn't want to give out Paul Reed, but maybe you put him in the deal too.

You do have a deal that works with Gallo, right, Collins, Reddish for Harris, Simmons, Bassy, Joe. That deal, it works. Okay, so now let's forget about the Gallo aspect. Let's forget about Bassy and Joe. I'm saying as Collins, Reddish, and Picks, is that appealing in return for Harrison Simmons? Is that settling if you're Philly? I think Philly can do better, but I think there's something there that makes sense.

There's something there that makes sense. That trade is maybe the worst trade in NBA history. what? Gallinari, Reddish, Collins, and Dallon Wright? No. And picks as well. Like maybe it's two first round draft picks in there as well.

Who is the best player in that? John Collins? Yeah, John Collins right now, maybe Cam Reddish in the future going towards Philly. I mean, absolutely not. And you've got to pay Cam Reddish. Yeah, you do have to pay Cam Reddish.

Which is one of the reasons why Atlanta, according to Windhorst, might not want to keep him. But Cam Reddish, shooting nearly 40% for 3. He scored 30 plus multiple times this year. He's shown some serious flashes. He's a good defender.

But I mean, if you're going to pay him, you're going to be paying him out. You don't have to pay him until 20, 23, though. That's like so far away for a team that has championship hopes now today. That's a long ways of waste. And I don't think Cam Reddish is a win a championship now. player. So to me, I think in the right context he can be. I'm not, I'm not saying, like, I'm not saying I take that deal. If it's, let's just say it's Reddish Collins two firsts,

and you give up Simmons and you get it and you get rid of the Harris contract. You look, you can, you can entice me if you're throwing in Bogdanovich in that deal. Okay, so let's replace Gallo with Bogdanovich. Yes, different deal to me. Okay. Different deal in that case. Now at least, I am getting... So we're negotiating here. That's what's happening. We're negotiating. Yeah, but I also don't want to take on the Harris contract.

So I think that's... Yeah, I think that's... Maybe you have to take it on in order to get Ben Simmons. Well, you get the impression that it's a non-starter, you know, that they're not going to take on that Harris contract. That's why the third team thing was brought up. Yeah. I mean, like I said, though, like regardless of the all the specifics, including a third team

potentially taking on Harris. I think the guts, Reddish, Collins, Bogdanovich, multiple firsts. Like there's pieces for Atlanta to play with to make an interesting offer. There's pieces.

Can I speak on something that all of this talk has gone on? And I'm not saying, now I have not read everything or heard everybody talk about it, okay? But at least so far, I have not heard anybody bring up that the irony of this with the Ben Simmons era in Philly

ending on a court against Atlanta and then them being the team that wants him and is going to, it might be trading for him is too much for me to. take. Like of all of all the teams, the one that he wouldn't take the shot against, the one that he almost bailed out on playing in game seven against is the one that's like, you know what, we'll give up a bunch of crap if you want to, if you want to unload Ben Simmons. Poetic. Unbelievable. And it does make some sense for Atlanta for basketball reasons. They sure as hell could use the help on the defensive end and offensively. They need another guy who can run the offense besides trai. Like Bogdano.

Hurtr, I mean, Gallo, for that matter, right, all their other ball handlers, they're secondary guys. They don't run the show. Ben Simmons could give them someone who can play with Trey and could be staggered to run the offense and have him facilitate everything in non-Trey minutes. I'd love to see what McMillan could do with Simmons and Trey. Like, I'm not sure what the upside is there, but he sure helps two areas that they significantly need it.

Yeah. And look, you could throw together. if I could get Collins, Bogdanovich, and if I'm Darrell and I want to play hardball, I say, I want herder. I want all your shooters. Herder, for what it's worth, is tough the deal because of the poison pill provision.

So, like, it's possible, it's possible, but very difficult to make that happen. But I want it all, you know what I mean? Like, I want your guys, I do think that Simmons is a great pairing with Trey because of the ability, I mean, you can hide Trey defensively. Like, they do have a bunch of little guards.

And you can play them together, like, you know, remember like for weeks we're talking about Dame and Simmons, the Steph Drey Mon style synergy. Those guys could have all tray, Tray Young and Ben Simmons similar concept there. And plus with Ben, like, like in those with tray on the floor and in those non-tray minutes, Atlanta could like run offense through Simmons like steal from Denver's playbook and have him play around the elbows. There's, there's more stuff that you can do with Simmons in the half court that Philly just isn't able to do with their personnel, but Atlanta could. So I don't know.

I'm into the I'm into the basics. Philly wants to do better. They think they can do better. But come February 10th deadline day, that Atlanta deal could be very, very appealing if there's picks in addition to some guys. Collins is really good, man. Like he's 6'10.

He can throw down lob dunks. He makes over 40% of his threes. He's turned himself into a solid defender. Like, John Collins is a really good player. He's really good. And I, like, imagine him with a bead and a front court together. No, he is good. He's just, I'm dealing somebody that's first team all NBA.

For sure. I mean, no doubt about it. And, like, it's, it might not make sense to do, depending on everything else that's in the deal. But the basics of it, like I, I like the idea of a maxy John Collins high pick and roll. I like the idea of Cameronish on the wing and the upside that he can provide. And I like the fact that if you can get picks in that deal, it's, it's one of the first

non like top 20, 25 player deals for Simmons that I'm kind of into. I like the pieces that could go back. And here's where we should leave this. With MB playing at a level that is best player in the

league-esque right now. And no team has the opportunity to improve more than they do. Because they have this asset that whatever you say, like when you say, have John Collins and have Bogdanovich or whoever, right?

Anything they get is not moving off of something they're already getting. They're adding to what they got going right now, which they, they to me are a team to really pay attention to because the needle can move more for them than anybody else. They're getting literally nothing out of that. And still only four back from the best record in the East. And you're just adding guys. You're just adding, I mean, at worst, let's say you take the deal that I don't like. You're still adding, I'm adding four players of depth to a team that's already in the mix and it's got a guy playing like the best player in the world recently.

100%. I'm with you there, Chris. I mean, I think with Philly, whether, it's a return for Ben Simmons or Daryl Morey in Philly take this through the deadline of Ben Simmons is like, all right, I'm back. Either way.

Like if you're getting something back in that scenario, the only thing that wouldn't work out for them this season is they don't trade Ben Simmons. And then Ben Simmons is like, I'm not sitting out the whole year. I wasn't joking. I wasn't kidding. I'm serious. I do like that, you know,

it is perfect of what we know of Daryl I do love the idea that now, you know, his team's winning. He's not, you probably feeling pretty good about where he is right now. Feels like he's got a little more, feels like he's got a little more leverage. They're in a really good spot, Chris. They've played this perfectly. I know I'm on an island there, but they've played it great. It feels like he has a little more leverage in the situation.

And then when somebody calls you, you say, all right, I'm down with it. But I want to get off the Tobias Harris contract too. And people are like, oh, come. like we're just getting to the point where we're willing to trade for Simmons. Now you're like, you greedy bastard. Like we're not letting you get off that. I will say, Jeff, you say they're in a great position. I want us to say this real quick, though, real quick, real quick on Harris.

I think the fact that this Tobias plus Ben Simmons stuff is starting to trickle out there, this isn't anything like that I'm reporting. So don't take it as that. I think this is a signal that they don't believe. that Beal or Lillard will become available. And if those guys aren't available, it means that they're talking about other types of deals. And that includes like,

well, maybe you're not getting a star in return, but you're getting multiple very good players. And also you're taking on this contract. It's a financial, you know, incentive for Philadelphia in addition to everything else. No,

no, it feels like a bit of a pivot where it's like, all right. It's an evolution here, yes. I'm not getting somebody awesome, so I at least got to get off this crap contract. But you say,

That opens up a lot of opportunities, a lot of different teams to put together packages. Don't forget Minnesota, Sacramento, Sacramento, San Antonio. There's a lot of different teams that could put together multiple good players. I get it. You say they played that perfect, but both those players are at their all-time low in value. They are. Both of them. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think Harris's value has changed all that much. Look at his numbers this year. He's having a career worse season. I don't think that makes that much of a difference. I know I might sound stupid. I don't think I might sound. But I don't feel like, what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is do you feel all that different about Tobias Harris

because of 30 games? I don't. I don't feel much different about Tobias Harris compared to 10 seasons of the past where we know who Tobias Harris is. I wish he was playing awesome. Yeah, I know. It just doesn't really change my opinion. If I'm trying to trade for a guy with a punitive contract,

I know. All I'm saying is I don't think, I don't think Tobias Harris's 30 game performance changes the fact that he's going to be making over, over $40 million in the final year of that contract. Regardless if he's shooting 29% from three or 39% from three, like, yeah, you'd rather the latter. But it doesn't change the fact that he is not worth that salary for the purposes of the Philadelphia 76ers, which is a shame to say, he's a good player. He's just not. a $40 million player. I think he's probably ready to get out of there, too. You saw him last week with the whole, you know,

don't cheer me now type of thing. He had the whole Julius Randall thing going for him too when they were booing him because they were on Harris's ass. Do you want to mention Lamello? Hit the big game winner against the bucks. There's not been as much fanfare for Lamello this year. but that is an interesting team. And the reason I want to bring them up is because it was a great win and huge shot last night.

And they are one of the teams. In fact, they're the one that intrigued me the most regarding that Miles Turner talk. There's these teams that have come up in a Miles Turner trade, the Lakers, the Knicks, the Mavericks. those are kind of all teams that have come up and, you know, I think that they could possibly get in the mix to the Hornets, you know, because they need to upgrade the Mason Plumlee spot. And that's where I think he could clean up a lot

for them defensively. They're like 28th in defense right now. Because they've got a really good offensive team but they're rolling, but they do need some defensive help. And the Miles Turner thing, it feels like it's, you know, coming to an end. Like we're going to see him in a different uniform. And I actually do feel like he is, he's got a chance to move the needle for somebody, whether that is, you know, the Lakers or the Knicks or Dallas or Charlotte.

What are the Lakers going to give up for Miles Turner? Oh, come on. I mean, what are they going to give up? Every time people bring up the Lakers. and that they would have interest in somebody when it's like Jeremy Grant or it's Miles Turner like, oh, cool, they have interest in somebody. Nice.

So, and then it's like, yeah, they've got Taylon Horton Tucker and a 2058 draft pick. And it's like, what the, can we just not mention them for a team? That name does come up in everything. Miles Turner. Can we do, I know, but can we just not mention them for Miles Turner? They're not going to get Miles Turner. Nick's Mavs Hornets could all be really helped.

Oh, yeah, they all could get them. They all could get them. With the Charks Pot on Wednesday, we do talk about Charlotte for Turner. We didn't get into New York for Turner. I'm intrigued by that. I'm intrigued by those other teams. You mentioned Dallas for Turner is very intriguing as well. I mean, Miles Turner, he's the type of guy that could definitely fit a lot of different places. I'm not so sure it's what you said, though, Chris, that we're heading towards it for sure. It's felt like that a couple times in the past that Turner would be moved and then he wasn't. And I don't know, I don't know if that could happen again. History could repeat here for

the Pacers where they have some opportunities to deal him and then nothing happens. I wonder if that could happen again here and maybe it ends up being some bonus who could be moved or neither. Maybe it keeps their team together and nothing happens. We just don't know. The reporting that came out said that it's going to ramp up because, and take it for what it's worth, that Sabonis, Lavert, Miles Turner, that Indiana reportedly plans on focusing on its young players in Chris Duarte and Isaiah Jackson, leaving the veterans as prime trade targets ahead of the deadline. And so now they would have to get returned. They should, too. They've lost like what? I mean, they were 9 and 12 at one point.

They were 12 and 17 at one point. Now down to 15 and 26. They've lost a lot recently, man. Dropping a hell of a lot of games. I think that Charlotte team changes if they get Turner. I do. Again, they know they don't have to be great defensively, but he's leading the league in blocks and he just can clean up a lot,

you know, defensively for them. I think he fits. Borago's begging for his center. And I think he kind of fits with what they have. I mean, they've got some assets probably that they could give up. I kind of like that fit as the best. As you mentioned, Dallas, they are, you are going to be talking with Charks about them. They have turned up recently, and that has been, it's been nice to see because they're certainly getting in the mix more so than they were at the beginning of the season.

And while I didn't love that Jason Kiddhyer, he really has gotten them defending. I'll give him that, you know. And so now there's a lot of these teams. We're talking about Philly earlier. This one with Dallas, where you brought up the Miles Turner thing and said you're going to talk to charts about it a bit.

Like there's some of these teams that even in just a few weeks' time, we view them much differently than we did. And we think to ourselves, man, if they just added a couple more guys, That's a team that, you know, it's pretty, I don't say wide open, but you could see their ceiling being a team that goes to the West finals. Really? Yeah.

I mean, I think teams should go for it this year. I think they should go for it. I mean, even the Bulls, I mean, that's the big philosophical question. I tweeted, I actually, I texted Kenny Beecham, a big NBA YouTuber last week. I asked, I asked him, would you trade Patrick Williams for Jeremy Graham? And then I tweeted it at him for like a Q&A. He had something in his video about it. And he's,

he like many Bulls fans, very undecided about something like that. I think you trade Patrick Williams for Jeremy Grant. I think this is a year for deals like that to just go all in and go forward all. You don't know how long your window is going to be open. So if you're Chicago, if you're, even if you're Dallas,

Turner can help now and later. I mean, there's deals to be made that are beneficial in the short term and the long term for these franchises. But even like Jeremy Grant, two years left on his contract, De Rosen at his age, like you don't know

how long your window's going to be open. You've got to go for it, man. There's an opportunity to win it all this year. And I think while we talk about Dallas and Philly and those teams playing so well recently and that they add something

we can view them even differently, there's these teams that are going the complete opposite direction. And as we are just a few weeks away now from the trade deadline, then who just sells off? who's not going to be competing for it because Sacramento has just been. They're not going to sell.

They're not selling. They're not selling. They have a playoff mandate. You don't think that that Fox stuff comes back up? They're not, I mean, like it might come up, but they're not selling to tank.

They're saying. Like, we don't think that Atlanta's selling to tank, but they're clearly going to revamp the roster. But that's not, but that's not a seller. That's like exchanging pieces. Being a seller is like,

oh, we're going to be losers. more games here. Sacramento wants to make the playoffs. They want to get better. So they're buying. They're buyers. No, no, no. And look, look, any of these teams that are faltering, like the Kings, like Atlanta, I view them

as, and I talked to you a long time ago about how I want Fox on the Knicks. Or there's a lot of those Atlanta players. Like you mentioned Collins. Like you mentioned Baghdanovich. I like these guys a lot. That maybe seller is a bad word because that gives the connotation that then that it makes them worse.

I think these teams, there's a lot of these teams that are underachieving, that have players that I think would be very beneficial and better fit elsewhere, which stands to reason, because hell, these teams have them and they're losing. So it ain't, it ain't working on that end. But there's a lot of good players. Like sometimes the rat teams are just filled with, you know, nobody I want. there's a bunch of these underachieving teams that I actually think you could go and

get some real players off of that could change your season. Totally agree with it. I mean, 100%. Like, it's like with Atlanta, we were just saying like the pieces might not fit there, but Collins, Reddish, whoever it might be, they have guys who can work. Same with Sacramento. I mean, like, if you're then,

whether it's a Barnes or a Halliburran or a Fox or like healed shooting, they have individual pieces that can help a lot of teams. And like I think for like they're not sellers. They're not necessarily buyers, but they're in that position. They're like in a unique category where they might fall into the desperate category, where they're the team that does have the responsibility of trying to make the playoffs. The front office is told we were making the playoffs this year.

We're getting in. We're breaking the playoffless streak. We're getting in. So in that situation, they're the type of team that Philadelphia has been hoping for. with Ben Simmons. They're the type of team that the Pacers would look for for Turner or Sabonis, a team that is going to overpay for somebody who's going to help them in the short term. And we'll see if Sacramento were to do something like that. But monitor the Sacramento Kings when it comes to potential big trades leading after the deadline.

Keep an eye on them because they're in a position where they need to get in and they need help. So how are they going to find it? Well, I mean, and you just look right now. the safest route by Wadmard's being at worst eight, right? So then you just have to win one game to be able to keep your spot. They're five and a half games back from Minnesota. That's a lot to make up. So are you scrounging and clawing just to get nine or ten?

When you say playoff mandate, I mean, at that point, you've got to win two games, and you're probably having to win two games against, I mean, look at these teams. You're like LeBron or it could be Yokish or Luca. Who are you winning against? I don't know, man. I don't care what you had. You know, I don't care what you had.

Right now, nine and ten are clippers and trailplaces. Dude, they're closer to the Rockets. They're four and a half up from Houston. They should be going the other way. I think some of these franchises, this owner, crew, like they need to reevaluate and think about it in a different way.

I know, like, you've been losing for a long time, but it's okay to lose one more year. You're just going to, even if Sacramento gets like the nine or the 10, and if they win that game, odds are that second playing game going to be really hard to win. And even if you win that and you get in as the eight seed,

and like, you're like, yeah, we have two epic wins. You're always going to remember that Halliburton game winner against the Lakers to get the eight seed. Like, what an amazing thing. Then you're going to get whoops against the Warriors or the Sons. It's not worth it over the alternative. Because that's what happened last year with the Wizards. The Wizards made it. They drafted Corey Kisper with the 15th pick in an alternate universe somewhere. The Washington Wizards bottomed out. They got a top pick. They nailed that top pick. And now they're in a position where they actually

have a more a brighter future. That's the alternate future. Let me play devil's advocate. The Grizzlies did beat the warriors and got in. And yet they got whooped. But they won a playoff game. John Moran had 47 points on the road against Utah in the game. And they got some scars and took some lumps against that Utah team, which I absolutely believe helped propel them into the current season that they are having. So that is the other side of this. But that's after they had jaw. But there is something, I'm just making the point that there is something worthy about

making it and quote getting whooped. I'm with you. I'm with you. It's about the timing of it. The grizzlies had jaw. The kings don't have their jaw. They've done the draft pick thing. They've tried that.

But they don't have their jaw. They don't have their jaw. The wizards have Beal, they don't have his team. I mean, it's just like, I'm just thinking like alternate universe world here. Everybody says they have their job, but I'll tell

you this, I pulled up a thing. It was not, it was less than eight months ago. Less than eight months ago. And this was not some source of massive, like, outrage nationally. ESPN put out their list of

the top players that you'd want to build around, whatever, under 25. Morant wasn't in the top 10. Really? Fox was like number five. What? Deer & Fox averaged like 25 points a game. You serious?

April of last year. Oh my God. I mean, Deerrin Fox. I mean, they also have Jay Crowder ahead of Jamarta Rosen a couple years ago. I mean, all I'm telling you is Deeran Fox was averaging like 25, 26 points of gain last year and was viewed in a much different way than he is now nine months later. John Morant wasn't even ranked amongst the top 10 guys under 25. That list had changed pretty dramatically.

He might be at the very top of that list at this point or close to, right? Certainly a much better argument than others. So things does rapidly change. I mean, Moran was 15th ahead of Trey. behind Michael Porter Jr. Things change rapidly. I mean, to be fair, like to that list of him being 15th, there's a lot of great young players in the end of the idea.

Just looking at the list, like it's like Shigildas Alexander, Bam, Booker, Ingram Brown. Tadem. Fox was sixth last year, last April. That's those too high. I get it, but it wasn't like insanity. He was averaging 25 points a game or whatever. and was winning games, and they looked like they were in a better spot,

and, you know, the Halliburton thing was fun and whatever else. And so things do, opinions change rapidly within eight, nine months. Do you think I've soured too much on Fox? I think everybody has. Everybody. That's why I want them in New York. I'm a believer, you know? I think that that just saps the life out of you there.

I do. I've had too many people tell me that. I mean, we've had, remember when Solomon Hill tweeted at Buddy Healed? You know, I'm sorry for you still being in Sacramento. There's been a lot of instances of players making, cracking jokes about that. Yeah. And it's ownership. It always comes back to ownership.

Yeah, it's ownership and the mistakes of Vladdy Devac. I mean, they've had good coaches, too. They had Malone. They had Jaeger. You know, every time they're on to something, you know, they switch. up. They won't keep Alvin Gentry. Alvin Gentry will be swapped out too. So now you've got these young players and they, how many coaches Darren Fox had already? You know, I mean, it's, it's tough. It's tough on, it's tough on players. The king should bottom out. That's what they should do. One more time.

For old time's sake. One more time. They're going to break Donald Sterling's record. Unbelievable. Yeah, one more time that they should, they should break the record. This is a good draft. This is a good draft. It is. And if you're a Sacramento and if you're going to make the play in this year just for the potential chance of a first round spanking at the hands of the Warriors with the sons, it's not worth it. It's just not. I know you're a long way off from doing your draft stuff, but you have to pay attention throughout the year. Are you buying this whole, it's not just home grin and the Duke kid, but the Auburn kid could end up being the dude?

Jabari Smith Jr. has a chance out of Auburn, 6'10 averaging over 20 points per 36. Right now, like if you extrapolate out what he's doing to NBA workload, this guy is going to be somebody who is hitting spot-up threes for you, who's attacking closeouts at 6-10, who can create off the dribble, who can grab defensive rebounds and go coast to coast a little bit. He's got defensive versatility. He's like character-wise, everybody you talk. talked about him personality-wise. He's a hard worker, son of a former NBA player, loves the game, loves the process. He's a selfless player.

Like against Syracuse's zone, he was the guy in the middle of that defense, picking apart, everybody making passes to break the Syracuse zone. Jbarry Smith Jr., I mean, just straight numbers, 15 points per game, six rebounds, two assists, one block,

two steals. Like as his season develops, as the opponents get tougher for Auburn, I'll be curious to see how his numbers change. Let's see if volume increases for him. But like this guy, he has a real shot of going number one. But with that said, though,

people you talk to around the league, there's a lot of split opinions. Some people have Holmgren 1 out against Aga, seven footer, shop locker, who shoots threes. Some people have Paulo Bancaro, number one out of Duke, kind of like a versatile interior guy

who's still developing his three-point shot. But, like, there's a lot of people increasingly who have the guy who's over a year younger than Chad Holmgren, over six months younger than Paulo Bancaro. And that's Jabari Smith Jr. is their first pick. And that he's kind of really pushed his way up. 6-10 shooting 40% from three, Chris. 6-10 shooting 40% of three, doing it off the dribble and off the catch. That's a major skill that can give him the edge over Holmgren and Ben-Caro,

of whom are a bit more shaky from the three-point line. Yeah, I got to find out if I could, oh, wow, it's actually this Saturday night. I'll be damned. I don't think I could get down there, but I was going to tell you, I go, they play at Ole Miss, which is drivable for me, so I could go see him in person. That's actually Saturday night they play at Old Miss. He would be one that would be worthy of going to see him. in person for sure. And that's a close

to still be to me. On the ringer com today. Jay Kyle Mann, moving away from video, he wrote an article on the ringer.com. Why Jabari Smith Jr. might be the best prospect in the 2022 NBA drafts. Kyle and I, he was

on the void pod last week and we talked about Jabari Smith Jr. So if you want to listen to that, look at last week's void pod with me and Jay Kyle Man. And also on the ringer today, got a whole long article out about Jabari Smith Jr., you to learn all about them.

What timing? Yeah, it's perfect. I think, I mean, I mean, if you want, this is like a peek behind the curtains here. Like, we're not allowed to use college basketball footage. So it makes sense to do this as an article instead of a video. Is that true?

Yeah, you can't use college basketball footage. Did that change? Like on, like, nobody, like even Draft Express before they went to ESPN, like, they weren't allowed to use it.

I think even if you look at their videos, I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure. The ESPN draft videos are now like ESPN games. Oh, that won't be like Pat 10 or something like that or like local networks. The NCAA is like real finicky about that. Fair use doesn't apply.

Yeah, also. Which it should. That's lame. I mean, I think, like do you remember how like the NFL for years didn't allow, you know, clips videos on, on Twitter? They still don't, they still don't allow YouTube clips either. But I think they should. I think there's a real benefit to having that type of analysis on YouTube,

to breakdowns, like the channels like thinking basketball, you know, or even stuff like Coach Nick, B-ball breakdown, like that stuff

educates fans. I agree with you completely. Kevin is always a pleasure. Thank you to our producer Jesse Lopez as always. Kevin, I'll talk to you on Friday. Can't wait.