The Mismatch - What Would It Take to Get KD to Boston, Can Tatum Be the Guy, and Latest on Mitchell

Episode Date: July 26, 2022

Verno and KOC discuss whether the Celtics should go for it all and trade for Kevin Durant (03:25). As the guys debate what it would take for the Celtics to get KD, KOC points out that Brad Stevens has not been afraid to make trades. They debate whether a Jason Tatum–KD duo will be enough to put the Celtics over the top before discussing whether KD got a pass in last year’s playoffs after the Nets were the only team who got swept (18:39). After we all thought Donovan Mitchell was going to become a Knick, he remains a member of the Jazz as the guys discuss the latest teams who have shown interest in him (37:00). The guys also share what shows they have been watching while we wait for the basketball season to return (52:00). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's not quite the DeLorean, but we're going back in time with the new podcast feed full of all my favorite interviews in the history of the Bill Simmons podcast. We're coming up on seven years now. I've had an unbelievable collection of athletes, celebrities, showrunners, directors, Matt Damon, Denzel Washington, Adam Sandler, Kevin Garnett, Shirley's Theron, Tom Hanks, Bill Burr, Kevin Durant, Peyton Manning, The Undertaker, Eddie Vetter, Kyrie Irving? Yeah, he actually came on.

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the interviews on Spotify now. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and join me to see us every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K., Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Concer, Kevin O'Compter, Kevin O'Compel, Kevin O'Chyland, Kevin O'Cannibus, Kevin O'Hawne, Kevin O'Berno!

What's going on today? The listeners demanded That I include Something about your level of desire It was a funny tweet It was a funny tweet, Chris What tweet are you referencing here For the listeners who didn't see it?

There was a adult film star, was it not? Lisa Ann tweeted a photo of herself Reading Seth Partnow's book the mid-range theory and I just quote tweeted it saying I've decided to write a book would you have expected that Lisa would be a fan

of that book the mid-range theory I guess you never know I don't know I mean she's tweeted about like basketball before if I remember correctly a while ago I don't know do follow her

no I don't follow her oh she's checked No, I don't. Do you follow her with your burner account? No. I don't have any burners, actually. You don't. You don't.

I don't have any burners. All right. Here we go. I should probably make a burner. Maybe you should. I mean, I should. Kevin O. Burner. The dead time right now.

That would be good content, Chris. We thought, we predicted when the basketball ends, and that meant when Summer League ends, after free agency, what does the time have to be filled with? And the answer is always the same. Drama. It has to be filled with drama. And sure enough, there it is, as we're coming into the week. On Sunday night, Adrian Wojianowski tweets out something about how there have been conversations about to rant with the Brooklyn Nets from the Celtics. And that's kind of it.

It's kind of left at that. By the time I get up on Monday morning, Sham Sharania has unloaded the notebook. And within said notebook, advance that story by throwing in the name Jalen Brown. So, of course, the headlines. go everywhere. Celtics have talked to the Brooklyn Nets about a Jalen Brown for Kevin Durant deal. You have heard other names come up. Derek White's name has come up. Marcus Smart's name has come up.

Draft Capital has come up. And then by the time we got done with Monday afternoon, there were a slew of reporters all saying, hey, there were conversations between these. Of course there were conversations, but it happened a little while ago and nothing obviously came of it that doesn't mean that those conversations are dead forever but just no, these conversations happened a while back. And so that kind of distracted from the fact of, hey, the Celtics who were just in the NBA finals

have talked about at least a deal with Brooklyn that would include Jalen Brown and who knows who else in a deal for Kevin Durant. So as we took all of that in on Monday, give me your first reaction to seeing that news. Do it. Trey Jalen Brown for Kevin Durant.

Of course, it always depends. What else do you give it up? If you're also giving out Marcus Smart and every first round pick you're able to and every pick swap you're able to, maybe that's a little too much for a 34-year-old guy who's a couple of years removed from a ruptured Achilles

and has suffered numerous other injuries as well. Maybe it's too much. But Kevin Durant is a far superior scorer than Jalen Brown. He's a far superior playmaker than Jalen Brown. And on defense, he remains even at his current state, a more impactful, more versatile defender on and off the ball. So look, I love Jalen Brown. Years ago, you know, when it came to some of the Kauai,

Jailen Brown stuff, I was hesitant for Boston to include him, you know, personally, in packages for Kauai Linder, just as I was with the Lakers with like Brandon Ingram for packages for Kaui Linder. But Kevin Durant remains at 34 years old, an elite talent. And for the Celtics, this would bring them closer to being a champion. And that's ultimately the goal here. And it follows a trend. Brad Stevens trades a first round pick for Al Horford. He trades a first round pick, Anna Swap for Derek White. He trades a first round pick from Malcolm Brogton.

Stevens has already shown a willingness in his short time running the Celtics that he's willing to make aggressive moves. This would be the first big one that changes the whole culture of the team. But it shows, to me, at least the conversations happening, the fact if Shams is correct in saying they offered Jalen Brown and Derek White, it shows that he does have the intentions of being aggressive here. So to me, when I see the reports about all these conversations happen in mid-July, they happen in early July.

What does it matter? The conversations happened. It doesn't matter. Time doesn't matter because the conversations could pick up again today, tomorrow, in September,

and February, that's when it could happen again. The fact we know what happened is all that really matters. It felt like a lot of reporters knew it happened and everybody kept their mouth shut and then once the

once the cat was out of the bag then it was comment on the reporting. Right? So you have the woeat's tweet. Then you have the Shams where Shams like, I don't care. I'll say the names.

Everybody's been talking about all that, right? Isn't that what that feels like? That feels like everybody's been talking about this behind the scenes. Everybody, all these reporters had an awareness of it. Yeah. And now let's comment on it. Now, let's get back to what you were saying about the Jalen Brown and just trading for Kevin Durant. The question is to me, where do you draw the line?

Okay. Is it Derek White and Dr. Graph Capital if you're Brad Stevens. Is it Marcus Smart and draft capital if it is? Is that the line? Like what is the line? Would you include Marcus Smart in the deal? Because to me, if you are moving, if you're moving Derek White, so what?

He's played six months there, right? there is something to be said where I would get a little wary about the Marcus Smart thing and here is why. A, I know I've attained Malcolm Brogton but I cannot count on Malcolm Brockton. Always injured with the foot injuries.

It would be foolishness. It plays like half his games a lot of the time. The other thing is one of the things that I think we've learned from some of the successful teams and this was the story of what took place with both of our finals representatives this year. It is also the story of what happened with our finals winner the year before in the Milwaukee

Bucks. And that is that there's always the new trend. Sometimes it's three-pointers. Sometimes it's pace and space. Sometimes it's maybe advances on the health and recovery side of things. Everybody's always trying to gain an edge. And one of the things that I think we've seen recently is, the value of continuity, that there is nothing that can replace that, that there's also not a number

that you can put on it. That we always think that you can just attain the best guys, you can throw them together, and then it's going to work out. That has obviously not been the case in recent history. And I think that these teams that have been through the wars together, have attained the scars together. What is the replace, there is no replacement for being in that situation as a group over and over again. So that's why I say. With Derek White, not a big deal.

He's been with them, you know, a very small amount of time. I do think if you move Jalen and Marcus, you lose that. You lose that. I don't think that you lose it if you're moving Derek White and draft capital. I do think that Durant is a superior player. And throughout history, we know that you've got to have one of the best players in the NBA to win the title. End of story. And I'm not talking, like, you look at, like, whatever, we go back to 15.

Every title team has either had LeBron, Kauai, or Curry, or Durr. or Durant, if you want to say Durant in those years with Golden State. So is Tatum going to be that level of player? Are they both second fiddles? If they're best cast as second fiddles, rather than the alpha on a team. But I just say I would love to do that trade. I would be very wary,

and I think obviously the Celtics were, of giving up Jalen and Smart because I feel like there's real value in continuity and you're really just that's just a brand new team with Jason Tatum still around. Yeah, I mean like you said it, Chris.

Like I just laid out some of the trades Brad Stevens made giving up draft capital to add and bolster the team. A trade involving Jalen Brown and Marcus Smart. I'd say just Jalen Brown, Jalen Brown and Derek White for Kevin Durant less so, but both of those guys, this would be the first one that changes the whole culture of the team. Yeah. The thing to think about here is the dynamic between Brad Stevens and Ime Udoca. As far as I know, I can't think of another example of a guy who coached a team for years like Brad Stevens did to then become the person making the decisions in the front office. So like you have a coach who spent time with Marcus Smart. spent time with Jalen Brown, has been in the locker room,

knows the full dynamic, all the pros and cons of having those guys in a locker room and how it would affect things, potentially affect things to remove him from the equation. And then you have Udoka, who was there every single day this year. I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the conversations between those two guys when it comes to saying, hey, should we give up Marcus here?

What do we lose? If we lose Marcus, what does it mean when it comes to lighting a fire underneath the guys because Marcus Smart is the person who sets the tone on the court that everybody can see. You can see the clips on the broadcast sometimes of him like yelling at teammates. We don't see the stuff in the locker room or the bus rides and all that, but Marcus Smart is the vocal leader of the team. So how much does the team lose what makes it what it is if you remove that from the equation? I don't have the full answer to that. But Brad Stevens, Imei Udoka, those guys have the answer better than anybody. And their dynamic is

very unique in the league, really in league history, as far as I can know with like the coach becoming a GM like Stevens did in the manner that he did. So for those two guys and for the whole front office, that's the conversation that they're going to have to have. And so with Shams, he said in his report that there's nothing happening now and that they're less inclined to give up Markersmart, but they are mulling over next steps. And like that again says to me, that aligns with what I've heard. that this thing isn't dead, you know, whether it's Celtics,

whether it's, whatever team it is for Kevin Durant, it's just a wait and see mode right now. And a lot of people around the NBA fully expect Brooklyn to drag this into training camp, Kevin Durant to return. The Nets still want Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving and Ben Simmons to be on the team together

and to try to win the championship. That's why they added Royce O'Neill, that's why they added TJ Warren, why they brought back Nick Claxon, Patty Mills, Kessel Edwards, and so on. They feel like they've assembled a team that can content as long as everybody's bought in.

So for the Nets side of things, the reason why they have these outrageous trade demands is because they don't think anybody can meet those trade demands. And ultimately, it's all with the goal of getting these guys to come back and continue on the path of trying to win a championship.

Because they think, the Nets think, what's KD. going to do? Not play. He's going to sit out the whole year. This ultra competitor, he's just going to, Like he's going to mope and be unhappy and derail things like Hardin. He's going to sit out like Simmons. No, no, no.

People think Katie's going to play. Period. End the story. So for the Nets here, there's incentive for them to continue holding this hard line, which I guess brings it back to your additional question there, Chris. How far do you go if you're the Celtics here? Do you give up Brown and Smart? I'd rather not give up Marcus Smart for the reasons we're kind of alluding to here.

I think he's very important to that locker room. Well, because I'm kind of looking around, Kevin. If I've got them, then I've got Durant and I've got Tatum. Durant's only played, what, 90 games or something like that with Brooklyn. He's no spring chicken. No, he's not. How many other guys now do I have that I can count on? Horford is older.

Time Lord, injury prone. Brogden, injury prone. Gallaud. Yeah, Gallo. I mean, there's a lot of guys on that team where it's like. I mean, Grant Williams? I mean, I got Tatum, Durant, and Grant Williams. I don't know.

And then you factor in. So, Marcus Smart, the nice part about Marcus Smart is he's a defensive player of the year, but he's also a great defender, not just because of what he does against guards. Let's say, let's say Durant, let's say they got Durant and they were able to keep smart. Durant goes out for two weeks. Marcus Smart could be that guy who slides up and defends some bigger players for you. Yeah. He can be moved around.

The versatility he provides. allows you to plug gaps and when you need to. And so for Boston, if you lose smart and Brown, and you get Kevin around, how many picks are you giving up in addition to that? You can trade up the three first round draft picks and protected in 25, 27, and 29, and then you can trade pick swaps in 24 and 26.

So for Boston there, those picks don't have a ton of value. I can see why Brooklyn would want market, smart in a deal in return. But if you're Boston, I can also see why you don't want to derail your entire future flexibility for a 34-year-old Kevin Durant, a couple of years removed off of a ruptured Achilles with no guarantee that he even wants to be there long term. Kevin Durant, if he wants to accelerate things and make a deal happen, whether it's Boston

or some other sleeper team like the New Orleans Pelicans who could trump any offer out there with their 13 future first-round draft picks of Brandon Ingram, whoever it might be, Katie would have to make it explicitly clear to this team like, hey, I know what I'm doing now to get out of Brooklyn. These are the circumstances why I'm doing that, but I don't plan on doing that anytime soon with you guys. I want to play out the contract. I see this is the place that I'm going to win-lock term. Like, if he can assure that to a team, then maybe they're more willing to go all the way in on him and meet Brooklyn's demands. I think I value Marcus Smart more than a lot of people.

I know he just won the defensive player of the year. that is a point of contention with some. Whether he is deserving of that award or not, he is an outstanding elite level defender. Those guys are never given the credit for how they impact the game in the proper way. The other thing I will say, for all of his frustrations offensively sometimes,

we have to remember, The Celtics tried everybody under the sun at point guard, whether they've gone from Isaiah Thomas to Kimball Walker to Kyrie Irving to Dennis Schrooter to everybody under the sun. While Marcus Smart was on that roster the entire time, they played him as the starting point guard and they made game six of the damn NBA finals. You know, like there's something to that for me. And it is a question of, do I think Tatum is that guy? He was not that guy in the finals.

I don't think that Jalen Brown is the best player on a title team. If someone told me 100% Jason Tatum can be the best player on a title team, what are he talking about? You see what he did in game six against Milwaukee? Like, what do you want? What do you want? Of course. Yeah, he had a bad finals. But of course he can be the number one on a title team.

I wouldn't think that person is crazy. I think it's a reasonable point of view. You know, very rarely am I super torn on something? I really don't know with him. I like my leaders to be vocal. I like my leaders to be guys that, like, don't disappear for some amount of time that I feel like, hey, give me that ball I'm getting us home.

And he's not, you know, he doesn't have that kind of personality. On the other hand, game six on the road in Milwaukee against Yonis, that happened. And so, I don't know. You know, is he a different guy as he becomes, you know, 26, 27, 28 years old? I think it's reasonable to think he would be. But is he one of those, right? Where we look back and we can go back to NBA history.

There's that one-off piston team. But generally, you got to have one of the very best players in the entire NBA. And they got to be able to go head to head with Steph Curry, with Janus, with whoever. I know Durant is that. By getting in the Eastern Conference Finals, you've got Janus, I've got Durant, let's go. The other thing is, Tatum outplayed Durant when they played in the playoffs this year.

Durant's really gotten a pass for them getting their ass kicked. He has. What do you mean by pass? Because Boston's defense was unbelievable. I don't think any other... Unbelievable. What other amazing player gets bombed out like that in the playoffs?

the only team that got swept. They didn't win a game. Didn't win one game. What other amazing player can you remember getting wiped out? I don't want to excuse it by Katie, but I mean, the LeBron didn't even get there,

so I guess you could put that in there. But to me, it's like, I still look back at that series and like when I think about it, I think more about what the Celtics did to Katie and just how amazing they were, shading coverage over, the way Tatum was definitive,

him off ball. They were constantly bumping Kevin Durant, constantly showing two or three guys at him, helping off of Bruce Brown, some of the weaker shooters on that team. I thought Boston's defensive game plan against Durant was absolutely brilliant. And maybe, like,

that's giving Katie a pass. I can see how you might feel that way. You don't think they defending Curry like crazy? Yeah, Steph Curry is on a whole other level in terms of what he's do. And also, he has Clay Thompson and Draymond Green. and far more support on that team

than Kevin Durant did. Yeah, Kyrie Irving went buying. Yeah. Kyrie was solid for like the first game. And then he also struggled too after that. I believe what did he have? Like a great,

great game one. I think he had like 30, almost 40 points, right, in game one. And then after that he just couldn't hit a single shot. I mean, like I said, I thought,

no, and there's a lot of blame to go around. I'm not just putting it all on Durant. But I am saying, I think he deserves a pass and I think that series I didn't read my mentions too much yesterday because I was busy after publishing the article

but I looked at him this morning before recording the podcast and I was surprised at the amount of Celtics fans that were like turning your Boston card like people that were like It's fan favorites you're talking about though Yeah but I know fan favorites But at the same time, I feel like I've also saw some stuff like Kevin Durant is declining. Yo, he was unbelievable last year.

He averaged 30 points per game and six assists. And he was a dominant force despite the entire year, Kyrie Irving being out until midway through. And James Hardin's stuff going on the whole time. Ben Simmons not playing. And he still was a dominant force. Kevin Durant, I'm not. sure he's actually declining at all.

Not even a little bit. You saw that guy last year, Chris. The year before were a footstep away from maybe a different title team. No kidding. Because of his shot, you know what I mean? Yes.

And he was amazing. Yeah. That entire series against the bucks. No, I think it's about the he averaged 35 points against the bucks. I know. And with like superb efficiency

and he was running the show. I mean, he was unbelievable. I think it's a difficult spot if you're Celtics fan just because you saw your team obliterate that guy. Of course. And that's why. Yeah, that's why I think you're just going to

almost remove that from the equation here. And I really like Jaylen Brown. He has gotten better every single year of his career. I think like a lot of people, Like he practices what he preached. Faith, consistency, hard work pays off. That's his name on social media.

That dude practices what he preaches. He has gotten better every year. He busts his ass. He works hard. He's not done getting better. Jalen Brown is going to continue getting better as a player. But to your point, Chris, is he ever going to reach the level

where he's the best guy on the court and the NBA finals? Can Tatum reach that point? I think Tatum can. I think Tatum has more paths to doing that. Even though Jalen Brown outperformed him as a score in the NBA finals, Tatum is such a better playmaker, it's such a better feel than Jalen Brown does.

And we also did see some of the limitations from Jalen Brown too. Sure. And that's like dribbling? Yes. So, I mean, listen, I really like Jailen Brown. You also have to factor in, and this is part of it for the Nets too. Jalen has only two years left on his contract. And for a long time now, Chris,

didn't we talk about this back in January, back when people were talking about should they break up Tatum and Brown? and I said to you at the time, they should only do that if they feel any pressure or any sense that Jalen Brown might leave in 2024. If they feel like they might actually have to break it up because of contractual reasons, that's still a thing.

It's still a thing and maybe even it's more so a thing. It's a lot more of a thing now. What did he tweet yesterday, Chris? SMA, shake my head. And that's a real thing. I would be mega annoyed too if I'm Jalen Brown. Yeah, you just helped lead your team to the finals and you're the best scorer on the team

against the Warriors. Of course you're pissed off about it. And while we can always say, because I defended, look, I hated the way he handled it. I defended Ben Simmons for being mad at Daryl and Philadelphia for being dangled out there for going to look for Harrison

Houston thinking he was on his way. Just because I think it's very difficult. I think all these guys have egos and yeah, okay, maybe you should say, yeah, well, he should understand. He's not as good as what he's not as good as James Harden or he's not as good as Kevin Durant. But in the end, it's like, hey, I've, I've given this place everything I've got.

Why is my name again? Why are, why am I everything I read and all my friends texting me every different trade rumor about me again? Like, why don't, why don't they just want to keep me for the long haul? What more do I have to do here? you know and and the other thing is if you've got an ego you're like

I'm better to watch the finals we just wipe them out what do you want me to do what you want me to do who was better in that series me or him it's totally understandable I mean like how could you not feel that way if you're Jalen Brown

especially given the fact there's a lot of mixed signals about whether Boston did or did not offer Jalen Brown in the Kauai Linder deal years ago I mean, I know it's been reported that he wasn't. I'm not sure about that. Anthony Davis as well.

So, Jaylon for years now has been involved in superstar trade discussions, even if it didn't actually happen. It's been in his ears, people texting him about it, hearing about it for years now, for Kauai, and then for AD, and now for Katie, if you're Jaylon Brown at this point, even if Brad Stevens is giving you a call like, hey, we never offered you for Kevin Durant. this is all BS that's out there right now.

Even if you hear that from Brad Stevens, I think if you're Jalen Brown, you're like, that's, you're full of it. At this point, at this point, you either need to accept this is a business and the reason why I am involved in these discussions for these unbelievable talents is because I'm a great talent too,

and then I'm valued around the league. Either you get a look at it that way or you feel slighted or both. And it's perfectly fair and acceptable to fail both. Well, and that's what my buddy, Tim Bontems, was saying, Jaylen Brown shouldn't feel so bad. Yes, his name has gotten out there

trade rumors. He goes, but trade rumors for Anthony Davis, Kauai Leonard, and Kevin Durant. That's who he's, that's who, like when there's been rumors

about Jalen Brown being moved, that's the three players we're talking about. And these are like all-timers. It's fair. At the end of the day, Chris,

would you give up Jalen Brown, Margaret Smart, and three unprotected first round draft picks for you not would you would you give up jalen smart and two unprotected firsts i don't want to give up jalen and smart i would draw the line there i'd say look you can you can you can mess around my roster you want grant williams you want this guy you want this guy so you so you give brown derrick white grant williams and three unprotected first round picks you do that i don't care after yes okay so you give up the 25 27 29 with derrick white grant william

Jalen Brown, that means if you're boss and you get to keep your 24 and your 26, that be your pieces. Grant Williams is like, look, Grant Williams is not going to be a starter. No.

Long term. I mean, he's, I mean, like he may be depending on the team. I don't think that you're going to lock him in as a starter on your team. I'm really,

at that point, I'm really replacing one guy. I'm just taking out, I get that Grant Williams played a lot of minutes. I get Grant Williams is good. Okay. But Derek White,

I hardly had him, and I really didn't have him much for the last five games of the finals. Like, you might as well have been a ghost for me. Every time I put him out there, I was minus 30 in five minutes. He looked very scared out there sometimes. Okay, so that one. And then the Grant thing, if I move Grant, I move Grant, right? That's at the end of the world. He's been talking too much this offseason anyway.

Yeah. Also, he's going to get paid coming up, too. He's going to be a contract coming up. Come on. The fact that you're talking to Steph Curry is enough. Enough, Grant. All right. So you talk too much.

You could go. Derek White, you were witness protection for the last five days of the finals. You could go. At that point, the picks are the picks. I get it. But that's why Brooklyn rightfully is saying we need Margaret's

I did it. But I'm replacing my small forward and that's it. At that point, that's how I would look at it. Do you think Brooklyn should take that? You said Boston you would do that. Do you think Brooklyn should take that? I think Jaylen Brown's the best player you're going to get back.

What about what if the Pelicans are willing to give Brandon Ingramman a whole bunch of picks? I still want Jay Lambrough. Really? No. Wow. Really? What if the Pelicans are giving Ingram in like seven first rounders? Okay.

Yeah. At that point, yes. Well, because they could. Like, the Pelicans have 13 first round draftics. They could give up like seven and six. evidence still have six left over. I mean, if there's that kind of draft capital. Yeah.

Yes. And that's where the nets, they want to be patient here because the longer this goes, then suddenly Kevin Durant, if anything, if the biggest thing that came out of the reports from Woj and Shams might actually be the fact that they said that nothing's changed with Kevin Durant's desire for trade. Wode said Durant asked for it and he hasn't backed off. Shams said there's been no change in his stance about wanting a trade. We know now Toronto has had the discussions.

Boston's had discussions. Brian Windhorst already reported early in July that Pelicans head coach Willie Green and the New Orleans front office want to have an opportunity to pitch their vision to Kevin Durant. The Pelicans, to me, are probably going to be the next team that it gets reported on about like what kind of discussions are happening there was there a meeting that happened is there any appeal does Kevin Durant want to live there in New Orleans

and play there to me that Pelicans are the next team that we're going to hear about here because of the amount of draft capital that they have because Brandon Ingram is so good and so young signed long term I think that's what we're going to see next Chris that's my prediction be clear it's yes it is about how much I think of Marcus Smart as a player

but beyond that what I think he means to that organization, what I think he means to the continuity and kind of being a gatekeeper for. I think that coming in, losing voice, you know, in the locker room, because people can say, well, your coach is your voice, right? Players are the voices, right? I need somebody that's willing to throw the chair in the locker room. I need somebody that's willing to speak up and tell guys what's what. And so, and that brings it every single night, effort and on the defensive end. I think there is a value to that, that is tremendous for a team. And so, yes, I have a high opinion of him as a player and kind of what he brings to the team, but also that continuity. And to me, that would be now I'm really,

Tatum's the only other guy. Now I got Tatum and I got Durant. And so how, how, how, how, How am I in a better place? And it's really because, yes, I've added depth right now, but I can't count on those guys. I just can't. Not to make it the whole season and then through another mini-season, which is the playoffs and then the finals.

I got two few guys that I check off. I can really count on this guy. A, he's going to show up. But more importantly, B, he's. going to be healthy. I don't know how they're going to react in that situation. I know how smart reacts. I know how Brown reacts.

And the other thing that's a little troubling is, you go to Vegas right now, Kevin, we were just out there. If you want to go bet on who the NBA champion's going to be next year, the best odds, the lowest odds, is the boss of selfies. Do you think they go down if they make that deal? You think they become a bigger,

favorite. But do you think that's, if they make that deal? Do you think that's the right thing by Vegas? I think it's totally reasonable. You think Milwaukee should be up there? Or do you think Boston is right to be number one? I mean, it's close.

You know what I mean? Milwaukee and the Warriors are right there. Yeah. So I think it's close. I mean, Milwaukee had a good offseason. They brought back Bobby Fortis. Yeah. And they had Middleton will come back.

They got continuity. Yeah, Bochamp looks really good in Summer League, shoot the ball well. Mamu. Yeah, man, going off. I mean, the East is going to have some teams that arise. So there's more competition for the Boston Celtics, and now you have to factor in.

If the Celtics don't trade for Kevin Durant, how agitated is Jalen Brown going to be? Is Marcus Smart going to be agitated? Can these guys get over it and have another comeback season, or will there be some, you know, slippage that's possible chemistry-wise? We know that this team experienced it last year that had this amazing turnaround. There could be some regression again.

So that's something also for Boston to consider here. It's going to be interesting. I think with Phoenix, it seems like they don't have a package they can put together. Miami, things are very complicated there. They can't give Bamat a bio to Brooklyn because Brooklyn already has Ben Simmons signed to the rookie max extension. So they can't have two players that they traded for, yada, yada. Tyler Hero, I mean, he's a good player, one sixth man in the year.

But for the second year in a row, he fell full. flat on his face in the postseason, underwhelming compared to what he did during the regular season. I can't, I don't think Brooklyn values him as much as some of the other guys out there that we're talking about. So who, who is next?

Is it like, is it more Toronto? Are we going to hear more about the Raptors? Is it another team like the Pelicans? Who's going to try to step up next? Because we're starting to run out of teams that can put together a package that even comes close to a piece and what the Nets are looking for. The Pelicans are the team that can.

They can today, if they want to. It's just a matter of Kevin Durant is willing to go there. Donovan Mitchell's name came up in the news. Shams also reported that there are as many as six other teams that have joined the Knicks in pursuit of Mitchell. Some of them make sense. Some of them make no sense to me. The first thing I'm on there was the Atlanta Hawks.

I'm like, why? What? They just got DeJonte Murray and they've got Trey Young. What do we? What? So the Atlanta Hawks, the Hornets, the Heat, the Kings, the Raptors, the Washington Wizard have all talked Mitchell Trades with Utah. Okay, so there was just a collection of names. I read this, and I'll give you my reaction, and you tell me which you think.

So some of those names made absolutely no sense to me, of course. Which ones made no sense? Atlanta. Well, that's ridiculous. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Washington has nothing to give up. Would you rather have Donovan Mitchell or Trey Young? I actually think that's a lot better question than there's people right now screaming at their,

whatever device they're listening to this on, screaming Trey Young, I actually think it's a lot better question that I would have to truly think about. Yeah, that's tough, huh? It is. I think, I don't think there is. nearly as big a difference between those two players as some would think. And I also think that Donovan Mitchell is more the kind of guy I would want in my organization. And I say that just because I feel like that whole Atlanta team fed off of Trays,

the regular season is lame energy after they had lucked their way into an Eastern conference finals and I just didn't respect that. Could he have grown up from that? Trey Young's great, by the way. Could Trey have learned from that though? Yes. And also, here's the other part of it. Why not all three of them?

What if the Hawks, while all these other teams are getting big and long and versatile, and the Hawks are like, we have so many defensive weaklings, you won't know who to pick on. I mean, let me tell you something. That'd be crazy. Nate McMillan would have cardiac arrest on the side. On the sidelines. Have to have to wear a heart monitor the whole time. They would have the lawsuit of the ages.

You did this. Yeah, I could win a court case against them. You did this. You know this guy. Travis Schlank. Schleg Brown. You know this guy loves defense. And you did this on purpose.

You tried to couch it by getting Dejante Murray. But no. That would be a fascinating experiment to see, though. have those three guys. Three small guards. Well, DeJante Murray's not small, but, you know, three guards out there

for your primary lineup. I think the stock has gone way too far down on him. He's awesome. He's awesome. I think so, too. I love Donovan, Mitch. I think so, too.

And so, let me say, the Hawks, the Wizards, that makes no sense to me. They have nothing to give up. Okay. Charlotte, whatever. Miami, of course, makes some sense. The Kings, that's the other one.

Makes no sense to me. Why? Broke, you just drafted Keegan Murray. What if this is your trade to move Fox, or it's Fox and picks to get Mitchell? No. So you're going to, and then you have the Mitchell brothers in the back court?

Yeah. No. That's not what Danny wants anyway. He doesn't want a guy on a hundred-something million-dollar contract, and, you know, that's not what they're trying to do. And so I would... What if D.N. Age really likes D. Aaron Fox?

He's like, oh, yeah, this is my guy. This is my type of guard. I don't know. I don't buy that. The Dian has his players. Yeah, I just don't think that makes sense. And so here's what I'll say. My reaction to seeing all these teams was two weeks ago,

it looked like a Utah Knicks deal was on the horizon. And then we know that Utah was asking for the move, which we totally expected they would. I think this is Utah telling everyone, hey, we talk to that team and that team and that team and that team and that team and that team. Life is leverage and you need to make it look like you've got a better deal somewhere and you need to drum up a better deal somewhere. because then you could go back to Leon Rose and you can say, Leon, I know you were dead set. You ain't going to give me six first round picks.

You're going to give me four first round picks or whatever. I've got this deal and I'm going to pull the trigger on this deal. You believe me or not, I'm going to pull the trigger on this deal. This is the deal I've got from so-and-so. And I'm going to pull the trigger on this deal. So you can decide you want to watch Donovan Mitchell play in that jersey. you want to watch Donovan Mitchell playing your jersey? Because I'm telling you what the price is.

That's to me how this reads. It doesn't read to me. Just too many of them don't make sense. They don't make sense. They don't have stuff to give up. They don't have, I think I can get a better deal from the next. To me, this is drumming up. I want to be able to get what I want from New York.

but if New York doesn't think that I can get anything close to that, then this is what they're going to do. And so I think it'll still end up being the Knicks, and we're going to, this is what I guess. It'll end up being the Knicks, and it will be what Danny Ains wanted, or a lot closer to it than wherever they were when they last spoke. I agree with you. I think with Atlanta, especially of all the teams on there, it's strange because they don't even have the draft capital to meet what Danny Aange and Utah is going to be looking for.

So, like, you can almost kind of scratch them off unless, you know, they're giving up a marquee player, which I don't see that happening. The Kings, I'm intrigued. I can't imagine Mitchell would be super happy going there considering he wants to go to New York. maybe Mitchell would be fine going to Washington because it's close to New York. Maybe he'd be fine going to Charlotte because it's close to New York. I know he'd be fine going to Miami. That's where he trains every offseason.

I think this is negotiation, and this is about gaining leverage more than anything else. That's what I think it is. Miami and New York, that one of those, that's who I'd guess. And that's just a respect for Pat Riley. How about Toronto? They're an intriguing one to me, because Toronto, I think with Masayu Jiri, Bobby Webster, that front office,

you got Mitchell signed, you bring him into a young team, a country that's going to be behind him that's going to embrace him and love him. Mitchell could fall in love there. But I want your young players and you ain't really got, you're not giving me Scotty Barnes, so now what? It's a non-starter. OG and a whole bunch of picks, something like that. OG, Gary Trent, I'm just spitball in here with you.

Yeah. I mean, because if the nets. OG needs to get paid and Gary Trent is getting paid. Yeah. Or I guess OJ's now, he got his contract in there. I know. OG's a free agent in 2024. Okay, so he's got a couple more years.

Yeah. I know that the Trent, he's already locked in. He got his deal last summer. Well, so if you're Toronto, would you give up O.G. Inadobie and Gary Trent's with some number of draft picks to get Mitchell? Yes. I wouldn't do it if I was Utah.

I think I can do better. How many picks? I mean, you sure you can do better than Oji and an OBI, 25-year-old, two-way wing, Gary Trent, 23-year-old,

one of the NBA's most efficient isolation scores. Those are guys. Those are guys. What if you feel, I mean, I think if you're... Those are guys. I mean,

if you want draft picks, I think you're betting against the Knicks more than you're betting against the Raptors. Like if you're getting their incoming draft picks, you want the Knicks picks rather than the Raptors picks. Absolutely.

And I also probably want their young players. Like, again, it's always the great unknown is maybe better than the known. The book has not been written on quickly, on Obie. Book hasn't even been, book hadn't been written on Grimes. I don't know. One of those guys could pop off

and become something a lot better than what we think. you know, it wouldn't shot me. Wouldn't shot me. I liked all those guys. Do you think O.G. and Ninobe could? No. He's already a great defensive player.

Yeah. He's a great spot-up shooter. A great... I think O.G. And O.G. and Obey is a great role player. There's stars and there's role players. So the question is, do I think Ogie's going to be... We're going to look up and he's a star in the league?

No. No. No. I don't. I don't think there's any chance he's ever anything better than the third best player on a great, great team. And that's not a knock. No, no. Those guys have great value.

It's just last year they gave him, and they gave him some run as an isolation score. He shot 27% out of isolations. Tough. tough. It's not I mean, it's just not he's not a creator. He's a, I play off of you. A high end, one of the better

role players in the entire NBA who makes people around him better, but he's not somebody who's creating offense for others. For sure. Let me ask you about a couple other things before we get out of here. The Colin Sexton offer sheet, I, man, I've just

got a higher opinion of this dude than most people do. I know he's coming off the horrendous injury. last year, and he lost a year. But, well, if I'm somebody out there, I would, I'd trump that offer sheet that was reported that Cleveland gave him. Oh, yeah, the three years, 60 total, right? In two seconds, I'd trump that. So if you're the spurs or the Pacers, you'd want Sexton, they're the only two is a cap.

Yes. Yes. I think that's wild. I thought that Nick should have gone and gotten him. they can't get Mitchell, I'd go sign Sexton. They don't have the money though. I don't know. Try to sign a trade.

Yeah, sign a trade is always a possibility, and I'm sure that's your change. That's probably what Clutch Sports is still hoping for. Yeah. I just, yeah, I think, I think Sexton is just going to keep getting better and better and better. You go look at his numbers. People can say whatever they want about the defensive end. Like this guy is not a unwilling defender. He is a high intensity guy.

He's a bucket. And even if his role is a guy that comes off the bench of flips games, those guys have such tremendous value. And he would demolish second units. Even if you say, okay, I don't want him to be my starting point card. Fine. let him be my sixth man. This guy would be incredible as a six man.

This is like a guy that can go win your games. And yeah, that offer seemed way low. It's not a great fit with him and Garland for sure. And I just think if I'm a team out there and I need a guy, I'd be looking to make a deal for him because that's a low offer. low off him. And he's kind of the guy that is dangling out there, who I actually think is a needle mover.

Again, we talk about guys, but four years in the league. The last year that he played, anybody can go look up his efficiency. From the field, from three point line, he rebounds, he gets assists. He's a gamer. I know he's coming off the ACO. I know it's going to be tough.

But, boy, I'm a fan. I'm a fan of his. But the one thing I just want to note with Sexton is he is subject to base year compensation rules when it comes to a trade, a sign in trade. So that means that the receiving team of Sexton would have to match the salary of his current salary. whereas the incoming, you know, for the Cavs, it says outgoing new salary,

which makes it very difficult to salary match in a deal. And the reason why that rule is there is just to make sure or minimize the chance that contracts aren't being signed for the sole intentions of sign and trading that player. It's a complicated rule. But it's just, you should just know basically it would be hard for the Cavs to sign and trade Colin Sexton. It's not impossible, but very difficult. And that's probably why this is drug out the length that it has.

Yeah. Because nobody has ponied up a restricted free agency offer sheet that we know have to him. If he doesn't like the Cavs deal, you got other teams that are out there waiting, you know. And how much of this could relate to Mitchell stuff or Durant stuff where like the Cavs could be the sixth team in a mega trade? It's possible. I mean, like this thing could all be linked. together.

All of it could. No idea. And when it's big, big names like that, you could have a lot of teams involved. Oh, yeah. In multiple different deals for the big time players. You could have a third of the league by the time it's all over involved in some kind of deals swapping things around before getting their roster set before we get into training camp.

We do have a little while until training camp. And so I will ask you, we have now been without basketball for a week, no Summer League, no nothing. Is there anything you have watched that you would recommend to people? The rehearsal. Yeah, on HBO, the new Nathan Fielder program. What is this? Formerly of Nathan for You. Did you ever watch the show, Nathan for You, when that was on Comedy Central?

So Nathan for you was a show about how, like, he would go help business owners with some absurd ideas. And like, help should be in quotation marks. Like the first episode, the first one is like this yogurt place where he's like to help bring in customers, we should have a poop flavor. Oh, come on. It's like stupid stuff like that. And like it's not just about that, but it's like other, it's not just funny stuff. It's some serious stuff too. But anyway, the rehearsal, his new show takes one of the episode's themes, the finale of Nathan for you and like blows it up to another level.

Pretty much he finds real people and helps them rehearse for life's big moments or even just regular moments. Like this is a non-spoiler in the first episode, the guy has to have a very difficult conversation with his group of friends. He needs to reveal something that he's lied about for years. And so Nathan Fielder hires paid professional actors and has him simulate the conversation where they'll sit in the bar. everything they'll do. And it is unlike anything you have ever watched in your entire life.

It is wild. All right. Wild, Chris. I think I'm going to check it out. Yeah, you should definitely check it out. And like within minutes of the show, your draw will hit the floor as soon as you're like,

oh my God, this is what I imagine except more. I very rarely watch things, but I will tell you, I don't know. I was going through, I am like, I'm the guy that goes to like

Netflix or Amazon Prime or whatever and I watch all the trailers. And then I never end up picking anything. Yeah. And so I actually watch the trailer and then I ended up picking this. Ooh, what's your watch? Because it was right at the top of like,

it was like, I don't know, maybe like number two on Netflix at the time. Maybe like within the last week, a week or two ago. The girl in the picture. Have you heard about this? No. Girl in the picture now.

So it's this documentary. Okay. And it's about this girl. A girl's found on the side of the highway. Okay. Girls found on the side of the highway, she goes to the hospital. She at that time is working at an adult dance club. And her husband shows up at the hospital.

And then one friend that she had is, told that she's not to go see her, but she does go see her, and she ends up passing away. Okay. So the friend is now trying to figure out what went on here. How could this have happened? Whatever else. Thought the whole situation was weird the first place. The story ends up becoming very big because they had a son and the husband went to school

and he took the son out of school. and he tied up the principal and he took off. Okay? Sounds like a great lifetime movie. All right. Now listen to this. Story becomes huge.

Girl in Georgia sees it. Let's just say the girl's names show. Whatever. Is this a documentary? Yeah, it is. It is. It is.

It really happened. Okay. Yes. So a girl in Georgia, she's watching TV. She sees it. She said, that is not,

that was my best friend from high school. That's not who that is. And she said, that's my best friend from high school. She calls the FBI. She said, that's my best friend from high school. This is her name. I went to high school with her.

She was damn near valedictorian. She was going to go to Georgia Tech. I haven't seen her in years. That's her. That's not who they're saying it is. All right. So now they go in and look at it. It's not her name.

The girl she went to high school with says, this is her name. that's not her name either. So this is a mystery here. Oh. And you watch this. You got me wanting to watch right now. Yo, let me tell you something.

Everyone I've told about this has come back to me and been like, holy hell, you will never forget this. It is the craziest story I think I've ever watched. And I've watched a million documentaries. Like that one where the guy, you know, walks into the bank with a bomb tied to him at the very beginning. that one on Netflix. I've watched that one. I mean, I've watched a lot of them, but this girl in the picture

is insanity. Absolute insanity. Like I... And there's people that have, like, dedicated their life to try to figure out the whole thing and obviously... Oh, I don't know yet. So, spoiler alert, whatever.

So they never figured it out. Oh, no, they did. Okay, all right, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. I'll have to watch. No, there's a trace. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a payoff. Okay. All right. Okay. Good, good. Damn, it's unbelievable. Unbelievable. Do you like watching comedy specials at all?

I do. I really like the new Andrew Schultz. The new Andrew Schultz. Yeah, he's really good. The new comedy special is great. It's worth like the 10, 15 bucks. I saw this interview with him the other day. He was selling somebody that he filmed the special and the TV plate, like whoever it was.

Yeah, they wanted to cut jokes. gave, no, they gave him like a million dollars or something like that and that they went back and they bought it from them. Yeah, yeah. And that now he's made over three million bucks off. This is the one you're talking about? No, I mean, like, so the special they filmed, they sold it to some company. And then after the company got their hands on it, they wanted to cut a lot of the jokes.

So he bought it back. And so he bought it back, released it on his own and they made like three times the money. That's so far. Yeah. And it's a really. good special. It's funny. He makes fun of everybody. He's funny. Yeah, he's very good. Very irreverent for sure. Yeah, he's great.

So, I mean, I watched that last week when that came out. That was very good. I need to watch winning time still. I need to watch Severance. I need to catch up on money heist, the recent season of that. That's on Netflix. Got a lot to watch. Yeah, I get some shows. I'm trying to do some reading this summer, too. trying to get reading back into my life in addition to dropping a lot of weight building good habits and all that

so yeah, gonna be riding the yeah, doing that, a lot of working out building good habits, Chris. There you go. Building good habits. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Again, no show on Friday, but we'll check in if there's a Durant trade or something huge drop.

We'll check in with you for sure. Kevin, I will talk to you next Tuesday. Have a good one. I'm