The Mismatch - Which Middle-of-the-Pack NBA Teams Are For Real?

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

Verno and KOC begin the show discussing tomorrow’s big college game between Alabama-Houston, which KOC will be attending (01:04). They then move on and discuss the middle-of-the-pack teams in the NBA and debate which teams are real, fake, or just plain average. They begin in the East with the Nets and Hawks (05:26) before moving on to the rest of the middle pack in the East (14:59). They debate if the 76ers can turn it around, why the heat are disappointing, and if the Bulls should take a chance to tank for Victor Wembanyama. In taking a look at the West, KOC believes the Kings will push for 50 wins and debate if the Mavs will make a strong push or remain a .500 team (44:37). They also discuss the organic rivalry that has grown between the Blazers and Nuggets, why they remain undecided on the Lakers and Clippers chances this season, then get giddy about Josh Giddey. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Ariel Hawani. And I'm Chuck Mindenhall. And I'm Pizzi Carroll and together we are three-pack. Join us on the brand-new Spotify Live app immediately after all of the biggest fights in combat sports. And also during the way-ins because that's when the real drama happens. So what are you waiting for? Follow the Ringer M-M-M-A show right now on our exclusive Spotify podcast feed. And come join the best community in M-M-A.

Peace! We're out of here. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon. and joining me as he does every Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a. Kevin O'Pomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O Shredder, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Cannibus, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin! Berto! How are you doing this Friday? I'm great, and as I am looking at you, you are not at home. You are somewhere in a hotel.

I am in a hotel. I am here in Houston, Texas. my second ever trip here, first time since 2016 into 2017 when I came to report a story on the Rockets. I was here for New Year's Eve. Why I chose to come then? I don't know. That's very bright. But I'm here now again because on Saturday, number one, Houston is facing number eight, Alabama, a game between two top college teams with top college prospects on each side.

Brandon Miller on Alabama being the top one. So here to get a little bit ahead on some NBA draft stuff for the NBA draft show with me and Jay Kyleman, and I'm sure we'll be talking about a lot of draft stuff as that time of year comes Chris. So getting in a little bit early for some draft guide scouting in person. And I have some interviews right after our podcast today. I have seen Houston many, many times over the years

because they play in the same conference as Memphis. And what Kelvin Sampson has built there is true. Truly unbelievable. And I think we could kind of put him in line with the other, you know, Popovit Spurs' way of thinking, gosh, because if you ever listen to him talk, he talks so much culture, culture, and about the kind of guys that he wants, the kind of guys he gets there. And, you know, we've seen it with very good success in many cases from the Budenholzer guys in the NBA that we've, spoken about before, but Kelvin Sampson, if you ever listen to him, it's very Spurs-esque,

and he has built something great and something sustainable there at Houston, which is not a blue-blood program. They had great success in the early 80s, but man, you would think, you know, you lose a team, like usually a Houston team, you lose some guys like Grimes, you lose some of the players that they've had over the course of the last four or five years, and then you take a big step back. And he has just gotten it to where they just reload and they keep their guys around. They play three and four years in many cases. So he's got, it seems like always like a veteran-laden team.

And man, they are good. And on the other hand, Nate Oates has done great job at Alabama for sure. You're going to see two good programs. No doubt. I mean, tomorrow could be kind of a potentially, ugly game, right? Offensive battle, Houston, the way, how great their defense has been this season.

I'm excited to talk to some of these prospects the next couple of days and see him play in person tomorrow. Walker on Houston, I'm excited to see him. That dude's huge. He's fast. He's an exciting draft prospect. We've talked about a couple times on the NBA draft show.

So I want to see him in person see how he looks against Brennan Miller. I hope they match up quite a lot. Is that a home game for Houston? Home game, yep. Oh, it is. You've never been to their arena, have you? No, no. Yeah, I'm interested in what your thoughts are going to be on that.

I've heard it's like a smaller, intimate college arena, so I look forward to seeing what the vibe is there against Alabama. Big game, man, sold out. Been sold out a while. Honestly, that's exactly what college basketball should be. I love the small arena. It just feels so much more like a college basketball environment. Absolutely.

I mean, that's going to be the interesting thing about the Clippers and the NBA when they build. their new arena because Balmers talked about having that wall, kind of like the vertical seats on one side of the arena. Like that'll make it feel very small compared to the normal arenas with the

large lower bowl section. So if that does well for the Clippers, a team that historically has poor attendance and even when it's good attendance, it's not like the most rowdy crowds, if that does well, it could be a template for teams building their

arenas in the future to have maybe that smaller, intimate crowd. Obviously, that gets to the ticket prices and all that. That's a whole totally different discussion. But I'm with you, Chris. Like, when I went to a Duke game a couple years back, saw Zion there, like, the games are fun in those smaller areas. They're so loud and exciting.

And, yeah, it's a good time. I'm excited for tomorrow's game. All right, so we've got a bunch going on. And what we are going to do today on the show is there's teams that have now kind of separated themselves in some ways. where they are at least five games over 500. Boston, Milwaukee, Cleveland, New Orleans, Phoenix, Memphis, Denver. If you're a fan of one of those teams, congratulations.

Your team is good, all right? There are teams that are- The Pelicans, Chris, the Pelicans. They are good. And now you have teams that are under five games. there are at least five games below. Whimpy! Let's go!

Charlotte, Detroit, Orlando, San Antonio, and Houston. And I think we can say, congratulations, your team stink. Yeah. And I think, I think some of those fan bases,

look, I think San Antonio and Houston, they both knew. What a battle last night. Did you feel the reverberation? from the Shengoon dunk. I know they lost the game. Yeah, but we had some turbulence in the air. Charlotte, Detroit, and Orlando,

I think probably their fan bases thought they'd be better. But now you start to become resigned to the fact that maybe this isn't going to be all that great of a season for you and you start turning your attention towards greater things, which is the promise of maybe winning the lottery or at least getting one of the top few picks that could hopefully alter your franchise. So we're setting aside the ones that are over 500 by at least five games

and under 500 by at least five games. And that leads us to a massive middle. All right? So we're going to go through all those teams that are in the middle one by one. I'm going to ask you, do you think that these teams, what we've seen so far,

roughly 25, 26 games in most cases, are going to be better, they're going to be roughly the same as they have been, or they're going to be worse. And you can add in, they're going to be much better or much worse if you want,

we'll kind of go through them one by one. We've seen them now for a little over a quarter of a season. What do we think going forward? We will start with, we'll start with the East. Brooklyn. Oh, we start with a fun one.

So Brooklyn, is in this mix where they are in the middle, as we would say. They are 14 and 12. As of right now, they have had their serious share of drama to begin the season. I think they're going to be better, around the same, or worse going forward? Better. Just as they have been recently over the last couple of weeks, it started when they got Seth Curry and Joe Harris back. The offense started to look more like itself, more screening actions, more movement, better shooting around Kevin Durant. And right now, they still don't have Ben Simmons every night.

He's out again. You can get him back in there adding, hopefully, I mean, if he does return closer to his prior self, a defensive presence, a playmaking presence in the half court, with Kyrie Irving, if he really does embrace that role, they want him to play. And Kevin Durant's playing at an MVP level. Nick Clackson, again, is one of the better defensive players in all of basketball. And he's really helping fill some of the void left by Simmons with some of the interior finishing out of the pick and roll as well. So I think with the Nets team, they're not going to be on the level of the Celtics or the Bucks.

But they definitely will be better than they have been to start the year at 14 and 12 and very average in their advanced numbers. Well, and how about we had a recent T.J. Warren sighting, right? Yes, exactly. You know what I mean? So getting their guys back. Less of the guys KD name dropped before. Yeah. So he is back in the mix.

I agree with you. They're going to be better. They've got a chance to be much better than they have been. It was a pretty disastrous beginning to the season. And the drama has calmed down. They are not a focal point of the drama that goes on every day in the NBA. And play a little more defense than they did. Better, going to be better in transition, getting back.

Yeah. Yeah. Better hustle. Yeah. All right. We agree. Oh, this is a fun one. Atlanta.

13 and 12, 4 and 6 in their last 10. And speaking of drama, they have probably become the focal point of off-the-court drama. They have now just lost DeJante Murray for an unknown amount of time, but it's going to be, it's going to be weak. that they play without DeJante Murray. And then you've got this whole Tre Young, Nate McMillan thing kind of hovering out there.

So they're roughly 500. They're one game over 500. Rest the way, better, worse, or roughly the same? What do you think? Roughly the same. Average, frustrating, annoying, underwhelming,

just as they have been through a quarter of the season. We talked all about it on Tuesday, so I don't want us to repeat the conversation again. But I'm still disappointed by Trey Young. He starts off committing off ball, double the amount of off screen, handoff types of actions,

more fluid moving off ball, more active. And he's just gone back to bad old habits. And granted, the next couple of weeks without Dejante Murray, he's going to be, you know, pounding his dribble again, as he's going to have to without DeJante Murray there.

I'm still disappointed by the, the way he has really adapted next to Murray. Not to mention after their thing last week with McMillan. We talked about it Monday, them losing to Oklahoma City, and then they get beat by the freaking Knicks on Wednesday night in New York. You just can't trust this team, and I don't see us trusting them by April either. Yeah, I, so I went on with Zach Lowe, and he wanted to talk about the Hawks, so we did for a minute, and one of the things that he mentioned...

This week? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it dropped the... this morning, but he says, there's a fire there. Like, it's not just smoke without a fire. He's like, and this, like, basically what he made me think was this one became public, but this isn't the first time that this has happened there. I'm talking about with the Trey McMillan and there being this lack of communication

that has gone on within them. And he was, you know, he talks to a lot of people. And he's like, I don't like, I don't like it. I don't like where it's going. I don't like the vibes. Now, look, it's already been rather disappointing with the 13 and 12 record so far. But I think I agree with you. Like, they're probably going to be around 500, which is disappointing.

Might be a little less. Might be a little more. Like, I don't see them, like, falling apart. But, you know, they'll win some here, win some there. They're always going to get their share of home wins when they've got a reasonable team because that's one of the places, man. They're in Miami, sometimes Toronto,

obviously the high altitude places, but there's this extenuating circumstances. Teams go into Atlanta and they go out. They go out. You see a lot of teams play flattered in hell if they've gotten into Atlanta and they've flown in the night before because Atlanta's a fun city.

And so they go and tear it down and then they come out the next night and get their ass kick. You hear me, me and Jay Kyle Man on this week's NBA draft show talking about how we've never been to a club. That's unbelievable. Don't send us to Atlanta. That was true many years ago when we first got together at Summer League. I remember you telling us that.

That you had never been. And then we were going to take you to one. It hasn't happened. No. With great friends. We're getting you won it. No, I think it was the night there was like lightning or something. Oh, was that the night?

And you didn't leave your hotel because you're like it's lightning out. Remember, we were going to go to like Top Golf or something. I don't care about lightning. And it started pouring rain. No, like lightning shot out Top Golf. Really? Oh, like we couldn't. We weren't allowed to go.

Right. Like, I was there with Titus and Tate and everybody else, like, for whatever reason, we're the idiots that like took an Uber over there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we showed up. Because we were like, oh, it's raining, but then lightning had shot out the powers. That's right.

Yeah. So we couldn't do anything. That might have been the night. Now, all right. I think I remember that, yeah. Next time around, we're going to make it happen with you and Jay Kyle, man. Oh, okay. Do you amazing.

All right. We agree on Atlanta. It won't be hard to get me there, but I'm not sure about Kyle. He's a married man and all that stuff. I understand. I understand. Indiana, they're 13 and 12, 4 and 6 in their last 10. They have been a real surprise.

I think everybody thought they were going to be terrible this year. They've not been terrible at all. They have had some seasons that have certainly made people pay attention to them from Tyrese Halliburton, from Benedict Matherin, Miles Turner. He's had some really great moments throughout this season. and they have been a surprise team at 13 and 12. Rest of the way, do we think they're going to be better? Do we think they're going to be worse?

Do we think they're going to be roughly the same? Roughly the same unless they make trades to be worse. But that's the way I frame it with them. I think we've seen enough from Halliburton. This dude is for real, you know, an all-star candidate, an emerging superstar, Matherin, a serious sixth man of the year candidate, and Rookie of the Year candidate,

Miles Turner looks better, Nemhard looks for real. The Pacers have a lot of talent, but the question is, are they going to move off of a heel? Are they going to move off of a Turner, which could deplete their depth and some of their top-end talent

given the way Turner has played? So that's the question with Indiana right now, but if they don't make any moves, I don't see them getting any worse. They'll hover around 500, which is, I guess, good for them. But at the same time, I'd prefer to be Slightly worse in the lottery without my guy, Miles Turner, who's going to be a free agent in July

and could easily walk. So I'd make moves if I'm the Pacers. This is the first one where we disagree. I think with or without moves, they are going to be worse than they have been thus far. Very fair. That's fair. They're a young team. Yeah, and that's not a demerit. Look, they're better than all of us thought they were going to be regardless. But they're going to be worse than this. I mean, they're over 500 and they're in the mix. Right now, I think they're sixth. They're going to be worse. They played about the easiest schedule in the entire NBA through the first 25 games. And if it's not the easiest, it's one of the three easiest, because when I looked at it last week, it was the easiest. So, I mean, even now,

it would still be right there amongst the easiest schedules played thus far. And so when you combine that with the surprising nature of them, as the season goes on, teams, you know, this is how it happens. When you're the surprise team, teams start to take you more seriously. It's not just a, all right, we're going to walk in, turn it up in the fourth quarter and we'll knock these guys out. Because once you accrue that many wins and you pick off that many people, you start to get taken a little more seriously as the year goes on.

So I do think they're going to be worse. I don't know if they're, look, there's. There's no way you can catch the bottom. They're kind of in a spot where we'll talk about Utah on the other side. Those are two very interesting ones with Utah and Indiana that are surprises thus far. And they've already won an amount of games, even through the first 25 games, that you're probably not catching the bottom teams in your conference. The bottom five are all on face for under 25 wins.

Indiana is already at 13 wins. Utah's already at 15 wins. That's really hard to catch that. I know. Chasing that might be just a fool's errand. The next one, this is an interesting one. Toronto. There are 13 and 12.

I will tell you that I actually stopped low because he mentioned, like, just in passing, there's a lot of buzz around Toronto. I'm like, what are you talking about, buzz? And he basically said it is they're around 500. Is Messiah going to allow them? You know, if we look up in a month and they're right around there and just kind of like, okay, we're really not going anywhere.

What then happens? There's some, they're one that a lot of people are monitoring to figure out kind of where this goes for them. because if they are worse than they have been thus far, or if they are around the same than as they are thus far, that the idea would be that there would be some changes being made and that knowing who their general manager is does change the context of that, right? That he won't just be fine being 41 and 41 in the season and, you know, get knocked out in the play in or,

or get his ass kicked in the first round by somebody that's really good, that that wouldn't be worth it. And so that you start to figure things out as you go. What do you think? I mean, they haven't really had their lineup together. They've lost the Acom for games. They've obviously gotten nothing out of A Chua.

Van Bleed hasn't been very good. What do you think? Better than they've been so far, worse than they've been so far, roughly the same. I think Zach's right about the buzz with that. I mean, there's buzz with a lot of those teams in the middle, to be fair. It's like it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but there is buzz. But I think the reason that they're different than some of the others,

I didn't say this correctly, is that people know he's aggressive. In terms of making additions. Yeah. Well, or one way or the other that you retool. You say this ain't going nowhere. Yeah. So now whatever that means, If I'm trying to get better from that point,

then I try to get better from that point. If I take a state back to maybe get better in the future, then that's the move, right? I doubt that he's going to end up with a bad team. It would be getting better. I mean, I bet on them being better, just because they have too much talent. Scotty Barnes at some point has got to be better

than he's been to start the season. See, I'm back. He's missed a lot of time. He's their best player. so that's another check in the box of them being better. Fred Van Vleet has been so much worse than he was last season. You would expect him to be better too, right? So I think there's a lot of factors that work in their favor for them being better than a team right around 500 as they have been thus far this season.

But with that said, like their half court offense has been horrific, right? They've been getting their buckets because of transition. Maybe if this does sustain, if they do have issues in their half court, with spacing and shock creation, you do see Masayu Jerry say, you know what, screw it, pulling the plug,

going to trade some of these guys, get worse this year in the name of being better long term. I could see him going down that path as well if offers are overwhelming for some of their established guys. Yeah, or maybe just

find a better mix of guys, right, that you don't necessarily. Just reshuffle the deck. Just reshuffle. It doesn't have to be something huge. It doesn't have to be, oh,

we're getting rid of this guy and this guy and we're bringing in picks or future assets. Rather, we're bringing in guys that we think fit us better and we're moving guys to a team that thinks the guys fit better there, right? And so we're just trying to build around with barns in mind or whatever your choice is going to be on how you view your team, but maybe not either. No big step forward or big step back necessarily. But I think, you know, with their coach, with their general manager, with their players, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt that they will be better than they have been thus far,

especially when they lost, you know, they really have not had their lineup. I agree. The next one's easy, and that's Philly. Better. Yeah, I think we both agree on that. Yeah. It's not great. thus far. There's certainly questions, real legitimate questions on are they what we thought

they were going to be? I think as of right now, we would have to unanimous to say no. Like, they don't look anywhere near the class of who we thought were going to be their peers. They look a lot more like the rest of these than they do. They don't look as good as Cleveland. And so, you know, even if we're just saying the top three, do I think they're better than the Celtics or the bucks or the calves? The answer as of right now is no, you know. And so will they be better than they've been so far?

Yes, probably, especially considering they haven't had Hardin, they haven't had Maxi. but do I think that they're going to be as good as both of us thought they were going to be even when they have their guys I don't think so I agree I mean they're

even when Embed's in the lineup they're still under 500 they obviously Hardens Missed time Maxie's miss time and B'd just mentioned that he's missed a little bit of time as well I mean it feels like like think about the games they've won and Bid had 59 points

42 points, 32 against Milwaukee. It's like these incredible efforts by Joelle Lombie that has lifted his team up to victory. They've lost to Minnesota. They've lost to Cleveland. They just lost to Houston.

You saw them lose against Memphis. They've had some bad losses, and they've gotten smoked by some good teams as well. It feels like they're not what they could be or should be. Their depth doesn't seem as good as I thought it would be personally. But they've also had guys out.

And it's really hard to win games when you guys have guys in and out of the lineup. So they should be better. I think they will be better. But are they going to be better enough to be considered on the level of the bucks or the Celtics? The answer is no without a trade.

I did see them a week ago in person. And let me just say, they do not carry themselves like a good team. What do you mean by that? What's that mean? I mean, like there is like a level of confidence slash arrogance.

in the way that you, when you watch these teams in person, that they, and as a collective, that they kind of carry themselves. And I think they do feed a lot off of M.B. They just don't have, and I'll juxtapose that, because I saw a couple days later, I saw Miami. Miami's not any good this year.

They've had massively disappointing losses. But the way they carry themselves, I felt, was in contrast to. Now, theirs is, in Miami's case, it's, I think, an arrogance that serves them poorly, right? But they're not a bunch of guys to me where when I watch Philly, I don't know, I just thought, I was like, man, this team is lame. Now, again, they didn't have Maxie, they didn't have Hardin,

but I think so much of like the kind of that dog mentality, that kind of confidence, that aura, that we're going to wear you out. kind of team that that you know they're gonna have to feed a lot off of Maxie

they're gonna have to feed a lot off of Maxi now I saw one of the down shake games you know shake Milton wasn't killing everybody like he had and some of the others

but you know when you're you could take on the personality of and in this case I do feel like a lot of those guys you know feed off of

MBEed and while he is spectacular he's not that guy that like rallies everybody together is like not tonight we're not this ain't happening to us tonight or that they're all kind of like a big play and they're all kind of like huddled up together after that or standing up for one another or i don't know it just something was off there's just lame i don't know another way to say it i think sixers fans are watching it they've been

They've had a tremendous level of discontent with their team. I think they know what I'm saying. They're just lame. That's the best way I can say it. It's a fair way to put it. Just watch them on TV or go to a game and watch them. Just lame. I mean, yeah, they got some good players.

But there's nothing to it. I don't know. Can there be something to it at some point? Do you see that potential on them? I got to be honest with you. There's way too much on Maxie to me, to fail. that. I think they would feed off of him. I think he is way too important. For a guy that's in his rookie contract, he's way too important. Fair. Yeah. But I love him. I love him. I love Maxie.

And yeah, look, you got Maxie, you got Hard, and you got MBEed. You've got to be good. Really good, probably. The championship good with what they've got right now. I don't know about that. they'll be better than they've been so far. They've been 500. The Knicks, 12 and 13, 4 and 6 in their last 10. Man, I don't.

I told you I thought they were going to be better as the year goes on. I don't know what to make of them, man. Like, every time you think they stink, then they pull off some kind of good win. It's like, are you good or are you just okay? or, you know, and then sometimes you'll watch them and be like, oh, good grief.

This team stinks. They've got a way about them where you can't, I can't really figure them out thus far. Like if I told you they go and lose in Charlotte tonight, you would not be, that would not shock you in the least. You wouldn't think I'm crazy if that was my opinion. But then if I told you on Sunday afternoon, you know, they bury the Kings. that wouldn't surprise you either. So I guess I'm just going to say roughly the same. Is that what you're going to say?

Yeah, I was going to say roughly the same. They're just one of those types of teams, Chris, that you just don't know what to expect out of them. And that's frustrating. I do have to say that game against Atlanta this week. They played, you know, Quentin Grimes has been playing a lot. He's been very good defensively. He had another good game against Trey.

He's done well against SGA, against Booker, against Mitchell, like a number of different guys. this year, you know, he's performed well against on defense, and then they played McBride off their bench. Quickly's been good defensively as well. I think they've got some they got dogs in their

locker room defensively at the point of attack. The problem to me is Julius Randall. He had a good game against Atlanta this week, but I can't stand watching him on defense, dude. There's a clip that Half Court Hoops put out on Twitter this week

where like it was against Oklahoma Oklahoma City and Lou Dord, like Poku was at the elbow ready to catch a pass from Giddy. And Lou Dord jumped in front of him and intercepted the pass on his own offense and drove to the basket for a bucket. And Julius Randall was there defending. And he just stood there like a statue and didn't react like for two beats late. And there's just so many examples of that time and time and time again, every single game where he just falls asleep on defense has no awareness of what's having.

happening and it leads to easy buckets or it leads to penetration leading to kick out opportunities for open three-pointers. I just don't think you can win with Julius Randall playing at the level that he is on defense. He needs to get back to the guy he was his all NBA year when he played the best he has ever done on defense, the most focused he's ever been, the most intense he's ever been. Unless he gets back to that, like this team's hopeless. And the OBB injury sucked. Oh, yeah. But yeah, at the same time, like he hasn't lived there. up the expectations either unfortunately. No, but I mean, you don't, but, and there have been lineups with him and Randall that have

had some success. And, you know, you hope that he's starting to figure. Well, Randall, too. You start to figure some stuff out, but I mean, a leg fracture. He's out at least, you know. It's crappy. Two, three weeks. And he does play. He does play.

So it's a rotation guy that you're down. And you've got that whole reddish thing that's out there where they're working with his agency to find him a landing spot or whatever. Yep. Kind of strange. Yeah. Well, I mean, he's a clutch client on a CAA team. Fair enough.

Next one, Miami. So I just mentioned Miami, who I had seen. Better, worse, around the same. My vote is much better. Yeah, I'd go better. I think you nailed it on our show Tuesday or Friday, whatever it was. when you talked about Jimmy Butler getting into playoff mode when he's taking 20, 25 shots.

If he needs to, he can turn on playoff mode during the regular season. It happened in that Boston game. Exactly. So if it gets to that point during the season where he needs to do that night and night out, he can. So I'd vote in favor of slightly better, and they have enough talent around him as well

that you can project them to be better than they've been. Bam's had some really great games over the course of the last two, three weeks. saw them in person within the last week and I did not walk away going wow this team stings or this team's lame I thought two things a they're too small they're too small it's too much on bam and the other thing as I mentioned which is they just they don't care like a regular season and they are a function of now the league is so deep and there's so many like good teams in this middle that for so many years you could just dick around and turn it on for six minutes and win

the game. And you just can't anymore. You can't. You do it. Indiana beats you. You do it. Oklahoma City beats you. You do it. Utah beats you. You do it. All these teams. You can't just decide, okay, we're getting every stop down the stretch and we're going to get buckets and we're going to take good shots and we're going to walk away with a win. Like that whole minimal effort to get the win. I remember a guy that was covering the Lakers told me that last year. Obviously, it was a disappointing season when they came in. He's like, these guys, they are going to put forth

the absolute minimum effort they think is required to win a game. And they just get caught doing it over and over again. And every once in a while they'll turn it on, turn it on. But, you know, leagues changed. You can't, you can't just can't just play in the fourth quarter anymore. You end up getting beat. So we agree on Miami.

Is there anybody else in the, oh, in the east? I guess we got Washington. And Chicago. Washington's 11 and 14. It's already started to go the wrong way for that. Yeah, I'd say, I'd say it worse with them.

And I know, like, I know it's harsh slash mean to say, but KP's eventually going to fall off or get hurt. Damn, damn. I mean, it happens every year. All right, yeah. I mean, I know it sucks to say it, but it's like the guy always falls off. And if he doesn't fall off, he gets some nagging injury that limits his play. It's just happened time and time and time and time again throughout his career.

I feel bad saying, if that's the truth, he's been awesome to start the season, Chris. A career revival. Yes, he's been so good. And it's been so cool to watch because I love KP. I love KP. I loved him the year before he was in the draft. I wrote about him on Celtics blog. It was like the Latvian sleeper, right?

I love, I have loved KP for a long time, and I wish we got the best version that we could have had of him. But it's just the way it is with him. And their rookies, I mean, they're not their rookies, but their young guys have not elevated their play to a consistent level. Avdia, Hatramura, Kisperts. They have some solid performance. but they're not guys who are going to help carry you if Bradley Beale has an off night or if KP has an off night.

So I just don't think they have enough. And they're a team. They should strongly consider blowing it up as well. I think they've already, I'm going to mend this. I think they've already gotten worse, you know, or catching them at this point. So I think it's possible they could be like roughly the same, honestly. They're 11th right now where they're kind of like around. Or a little under 500.

Maybe if you win, what is it, 36 games, that would be about, like, what they're playing at right now. Yeah, they were 10 and 7, and now they're 11 and 14, so they've lost a lot of their games, 7 out of 8. Yeah, and, yeah, they're 3 and 7 in their last 10. Yeah, I guess it's already started, the worst part. Yeah, but again, you're like, you ain't going to be worse than Charlotte, Detroit, and Orlando,

more than likely. Well, I mean, for them, they're only four games back. Yeah, right. So, I mean, it's not like we talked about earlier with Indiana where it's, or Utah, who will talk about soon, where it's a way, far, far away from them.

It's not way out of reach for Washington or Chicago. No, with all these teams, there are a couple of weeks of good basketball away from being freaking home court advantage, you know? No, when I say four games back, I mean four games back from being the worst. Yeah, but they're also three games back from being freaking Brooklyn. Brooklyn's a home court advantage team right now. They're closer to Brooklyn than they are to Charlotte.

I mean, that's why we're having this conversation. How many teams are just stuck in the middle. It's insane. I know it. All right, Chicago, I already know your thoughts on this. You keep floating out there that they should just start over again and do what they did beforehand, that Ned is. them a bunch of draft picks it didn't amount

to a rebuild. They did that one year too late. They did that too late. So now it's time to do it again. They're all not having their pick. Just changes everything. Yeah, but they do. It's top four protected. Yeah, I know, but that's what you, I mean,

but if you're getting, again, how far, there's going to be how many teams worse than them, even if you decide. I just don't think. you can win that race. And then what? I mean, look, like I said,

if I end up with the eighth pick? Chris, they're only three and a half back right now from the third worst record. It's not impossible for them to say, you know what, see you later, tomorrow, Levine, Caruso. We're going to be horrific, not just bad the rest of the season.

It's not completely unreasonable for them to get the fourth worst, fourth worst odds or the third. worst odds. Okay, but you always, whenever you talk about that, you talk about it with the outcome being the best possible scenario. No, no, no, the outcome is third worst odds, third best odds, fourth best odds. That's the outcome.

What happens when those balls bounce around the lottery machine? I have no idea. Okay, but let's just say, let's just say the most likely outcome then would be like you're the sixth pick. whatever. So what? And you lose your pick. You lose your pick if it's 10. You lose your pick if it's six. You lose your pick if at 15. It doesn't want a difference. I just threw away an entire season and I don't get the pick. Yeah, there are seasons being thrown away no matter what they do. What do you want them to do? Well, you want them to lose in the play in?

I think you could retool the same way we talked about with Toronto. What are they going to turn into? There's no catching Boston. There's no catching Milwaukee. There's no, hope for the Bulls to win anything meaningful the next year or two. This core is done for. Okay, why are they any different than Toronto then? Why are you not saying Toronto? Because Toronto has a bunch of young guys.

Oji and Obie, Pascal C. Ackham. They have a lot of youth on their team that has promise and guys that they can build with long term. Chicago has Vouch, who's going to be a free agent this summer. DeRoson, who's going to be a free agent next summer. Levine, who signed for $50 million for the next five years.

I'm not sure. These are the guys that you necessarily are going to be building with or want to be building with, whereas Toronto has a core that I feel like is a foundation for today and for the future. There's a dramatic difference between those franchises. I think this is where we split ways, all right?

Because I'm always the it's easier to build from the middle because I've paid attention to the way this has gone with the league and now these teams have been able to get better and have attained these guys than it is from trading it for Flotsam, right? But this year's different, Chris.

You can get players. But yes, you're right. Maybe a lot of the time that is the case. I can't, I can't risk it. I can't risk it. This year is different. Victor Webb-Beyama is in the drive. Their situation is different.

They lose their pick, Kevin. Yes, so what? They lose it if it's not top four anyway. Like the reason you suck is for the first. pick. That's why you suck. You suck anyway. No, they don't suck.

They're below average. They're middle of the pack. They're in this. They semi suck. They're in this mix of the same thing that we have talked about with all of these teams, right? You can say that about everybody that's in the group that we've talked about. They're all within five games of 500.

right. That's why we're doing this. We ruled out the ones that are legitimately terrible. They're 10 and 14 right now. If the Lakers call them up and they offered Russ and both of their future first in 27 and 29, two of the highest value long-term picks in the entire NBA because of how the Lakers projected be by that point league-wide. If Lakers offered that for DeRosen and Vouch and Caruso If you're the Bulls, you'd say no to that? I would not give up Caruso. Okay, all right, so you're not giving up Caruso. Is there a combination of Bulls players

you would give up for the Russ and two first round draft picks package where you'd be willing to be worse now in favor of getting long-term assets? DeRosen's older, going to be a free agent in 24. Vooch is going to be a free agent in a couple of months. Levine has signed long-term, Would you rather give up Levine in that package, get off his long-term money?

Yes. Okay, so would you give up Levine and De Rosen for that package? Both? Yeah, I'm asking you. I'm asking you. Okay, so would you give up Levine and Vooch? For both first round picks, unprotected. I think I can do better.

Okay, well, maybe you can. Okay, then if you can do better, then go do better. I'm Rob Polinka. Go do better, and if you could do better, you should take the deal. That's right. And what I'm saying is that you can flip Levine for, I think, really great value that also can make you better than you are right now. You know, I mean, you can retool on the fly. I am just against throwing it all the way and just trying to find some picks.

I mean, you ain't winning the picks thing either. Utah and Oklahoma City and all these teams. They got every pick over the course of the next couple of drafts anyway. I just don't want, especially when I'm losing mine this year, more than likely. You know, and I think I could get really good stuff for them. You know, like Westbrook or something like that, you ain't retooling. You're having to throw that with high value assets, like you said, in order to get something that can help you.

Other case, those guys, like, you ain't got to package Zach Levine with first rounders. to get stuff that's like good players back. You can get a group of good players back. What if I throw in Patrick Beverly? For goodness sake. He can fix your team. Yeah, he probably could fix the team. All right.

All right. Let's run through the Western Conference real quick. Here's what we got. These are the teams that are kind of in the middle, as we said. We set aside New Orleans, Phoenix, Memphis, and Denver. Sacramento, 13 and 10 right now. six and four in their last 10. They're going to be better the rest of the way,

worse the rest of the way, or roughly the same. Slightly better and push for 50 wins. Wow. Yeah, I mean, they're on pace for 46 right now. That's not, like, an egregious prediction there. So slightly better. Yeah, I'm a buyer on them. And they should have two more wins than they've got.

100%, yes. I'll say, yeah, slightly better. Slightly better. So roughly the same, slightly better. We're not going to look up at the end of the season. the fifth. That would be shocked. I don't know.

I mean, maybe they could. Baby. Utah, 15 and 12, four and six in their last 10, getting Mike Conley back tonight for their game. The surprise of the season, for sure, at the beginning of the season.

I mean, we thought that Danny Aange had put together a team that was going to, that this was the Victor Wimbabye. Swaype stakes might go through Utah. Instead, they've been good. And they're 15 and 12 as of right now through 27 games. Are they better the rest of the way, worse the rest of the way,

or roughly the same the rest of the way? I go roughly the same slightly worse. Much worse if they trade some of their better guys. Like Jordan Clarkson, Mike Conley. Yeah, that feels reasonable, right? feels more safe that they're going to be significantly worse than what they have been. But that's because they've been a massive surprise. Yeah.

I mean, we're kind of too far down the road for them to just decide we're going to stink. It's not, though. It's not, though, because, like, we talk about lottery odds. This is to your point, Chris, in favor of not outright tanking. We've seen teams with, like, the eighth best odds, ninth best odds moving to the top four. every year since they flatten the odds. So for Utah, you don't need to tank to the fifth worst record in order to have, you know, 25% odds.

You can be eighth worst or ninth worst and still have good odds of moving into the top four. It's just about, you have the best odds if you're in that bottom four worst team. So they don't have to go all the way to the bottom to have good odds of moving up to the top four or even number one. So it's not too late to suck. It's just probably too late to suck the most. Dallas. Dallas, they're 13 and 11. 5 and 5 in their last 10.

Roughly the same. Oh, wow. You think they're going to be right around 500. Roughly the same, slightly better. I mean, we're semantic. here with those two. Yeah, I just don't think they're on the level of some of these other teams in the West. You don't think they're going to be better than what they've been so far?

I think they're going to be better than. I mean, what is roughly the same mean? Roughly the same means like, yeah, maybe they're a 45-win team. Do you think they're going to be better than Sacramento the rest of the way? No. And I love Sacramento. They're going to be better in Sacramento the rest of the way. Come on.

I don't think so. I mean, you've got to give them credit for past performance in some manner. I know they've been disappointed. Fair. You do. But when we look up at the end? And also, they're coming off some tremendous wins. Yeah.

Against Denver, against Phoenix. One, those two big games on back-to-back nights. Their best wins of the entire year. Wins that inspire confidence in who they are and what they can be. But I'll be ready on Tuesday show. depending on what happens tonight on Friday against the Bucks. This is the game that's really going to be the barometer test for who they are after the success this week,

going against the Bucks with the best player in the world in Janus, one of the best teams in basketball with Milwaukee. What did the Dallas Mavericks look tonight at home against the Bucks? This is the test for them. I'd 100% be watching that if they didn't have to be at Grizzly Pistons. Grizzly's piss. I know. I may have to pull that one up on my phone to watch Yonnes versus Loup.

I'm going to be watching this one probably from my hotel tonight. Portland and they're 13 to 12. They've had a rough go of the last 10, 3 and 7 in their last 10. What a game last night. Oh, my God. They're done in by Jamal Murray after we had dame time. 15 lead changes in the final six minutes and 33 seconds of that. back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

That was, I was watching that on the plane on league pass on my phone. Wi-Fi was good enough. I feel like those teams have played unbelievable games against each other over the years. Certainly going back to that, the McCollum heroics, you know, years ago in the playoffs. It's a real rivalry. Yeah, I like it. It's not like, you know, Yankees, Red Sox, Duke, North Carolina. But Denver Portland's pretty good.

Like, they've had a lot of great battles. A lot of great Just wildly entertaining games Yeah I mean they get a lot of Shotmakers and a lot of You know cool players Like it's just as simple as that

You think Portland's gonna be about the same I think they're gonna be about the same They started off better than we thought they were About the same Yeah we started off better than we thought they were They've been worse than we thought they were recently Be about the same Clippers

14 and 13 4 and 6 in their last 10 I think it's so funny Can we give it? I don't know I yes I don't know I don't know with the clippers. I don't either.

I have no idea. It depends on Kauai. Depends on Paul George. I'm going to say, I'll say roughly the same. Yeah, roughly the same. In other words, sometimes really good. Sometimes I don't know. Not so good.

I have no idea. Golden State. This is an interesting one. They're 500. 6 and 4, which is roughly 500 in their last 10. Certainly been a bit of a disappointment for the reigning champions. 13 and 13. Do we think they're going to be better going forward,

worse going forward, or roughly the same? I'm always going to bet on Steph, so I'll say better. They're going to be better. What would have to happen for them to be roughly the same? One of them goes down. Yeah, that's a lot right. One of the starting lineup guys goes down.

I mean, if they lost any of their starting lineup guys, and I guess they lost Wiggins, you know, but they just, yeah, they can't make it through that long. I do think they're going to be better. All right, let's hit these lasters real quick. Minnesota, 12 and 12, 6 and 4, last 10. Better, worse, roughly the same. See that go bare block the other night,

seal the game against Indiana. Pretty nice, Chris. Looking good. I'm going to say better, only because they've been better. They've won seven out of their last 11 games. They're trending up. And one of the key reasons why is DeAngelo Russell, after his just absolutely terrible start to the season.

He's averaging 18.2 points, 7.5 assists to only 2.4 turnovers, shooting the ball more efficiently, limiting turnovers, playing better overall offense, distributing around. So they're trending up. I think that talent is going to figure things out. I'm going to say roughly the same. I'm going to say roughly the same as they have. They're 500.

Yeah. Yeah. convenient that you mentioned the Indiana game because the game before they gave up 135 points to the thunder well that's because Gobert only played nine minutes that game he got tossed out oh that's why

because he tripped the guy was that the game he tripped the guy oh yeah it was and almost got his ass beat unbelievable well that's why he only played nine minutes you don't have Gobert you're not getting stopped If you have Gobert, you're not getting stops. What have you been watching?

They came up like 145 to the Wizards last week. With Bill Russell. The French Bill Russell. By the way, Jared Jackson's played like five games, and I think he's got as many blocks as Rudy Gobert. Jackson's been really good. Just for point of reference. I understand.

Oklahoma. city. I just saw them two nights ago. 11 and 14, four and six in their last 10. Better, worse. About the same going forward? I'll say worse. And this isn't because

of their talent level led by Poku and SGA. You you look at me. Led by as soon as Poku left my lips, you glanced up at me. Oh, my God.

I just think at some point the tanking begins. At some point, Dagnall is going to do some beautiful coaching to put his players in poor positions to start losing games. SGA maybe misses some time at some point. I think it's hard for them to, you know. It's not hard. Just don't play SGA.

I know. You're just going to... Your ankle. Oh, your ankle's got some issues for this. But, I mean, this guy does have a chance at, like, making a possible, like, all NBA team, whatever. I know they've already made him whole contract-wise and everything. But, I mean, he is having such a great, great season that... I don't know, man.

They might play the thing out. They'll probably be worse than they've been thus far. But they'll probably play the thing out. Did you see the stat? I saw this tweeted out this morning. Ever since SGA said a couple of weeks back how, he was asked about not getting officiated the same way as the stars, right? And he said, you know, it's okay, you know, calls are missed, referees make mistakes.

Ever since then, he's number one in the NBA and free throws ahead of even yannas. Oh. I mean, his free throw totals are absurd. 19, 15, 12, 18, 7, 15, 14, 13. 19 was the one that I saw. There, it got to hunting time, too. It got to the hardened-esque level. Were you getting annoyed?

Yeah, where it's just, I'm playing for the foul rather than the bucket. You know what I'm saying? Maybe that was just a one-off. But, I mean, like, you know, that was always frustrated me. Where the goal of the possession is to get fouled rather than the goal of the possession is to get it in the bucket. But he was getting goals for sure. I mean, he had 29 points and he made four field goals. he made four shots in the game

the dude made four shots in the game let me tell you something every time I see him in person I love giddy I do and he's starting to knock down threes at a better rate he's at like 30% now man if he could get that thing up to mid 30s

you know 36% 37% you know eventually and I know that we've talked about them hiring that amazing shooting coach boy he could be a special special player if he that's the only thing

kind of missing is that he hadn't been able to knock down threes but if he adds that to the mix he is so damn good at basketball he is good at everything except for shooting threes and that's getting better yeah he he's like a solid positional defender

for a young guy he can rebound he can pass the ball He knows how to cut and scream. He hustles. He's got a high IQ. It's just he can't shoot. That's it. That's the one missing piece.

That's it. And also, it's been a good story for Jalen Williams, the Santa Clara one. Oh, I love Jalen Williams. Isn't he such a good player? He is a good player. And beyond that, that is top five in-person hair. in the league in the 20 years that I've been going to games. 20 years?

Oh, it's amazing. Amazing. Have you seen? It's bigger now than in the pitchers. And it's so unique. It's huge. It is huge. It looks like he's got like a wig on, like a hilarious.

Like it is my, it's, I am going to cry the day he cuts that. because it is just amazing to behold. You know, like when you see Jared Allen in person and the fact that it is like, the way he cuts that thing is perfectly circular, that fro is immaculate. But this guy, his hair is unlike anything else in the league. I mean, it's every which way.

And just this huge, like a bush on top of his head or something. And it doesn't like really move. When he runs, oh, it's incredible. I was so jealous. I was like, this guy had the greatest hair ever. It's not a great basketball analysis, but let me tell you. You see that guy in person, you will be in shock and awe. Trust me.

It's incredible. He's got gray hair in a great game. And he's really good. He is really good. Like, you know, we're talking about with Giddy, I'm betting on Jaylon Williams to find his three-pointer. He shot the ball well throughout his career at Santa Clara. He's, you know, historically been 80 plus percent from the free throw line still is right now in the NBA.

Not shooting three as well right now. Maybe the hair is getting in the way. But I think those numbers will rise for him and he's going to be in the NBA for 10 plus years. And it really stands out because Poku's hair sucks. I mean, Pocke's stroking the hell out of the ball right now. Walking shots like crazy. Oh, including your beloved. Jab Marant. Oh, good

who, by the way, did you see the viral video this week about all his travels and carries? You see that on Twitter? What did you think? Have you seen there's a Curry one? There's a Luca one. You know what? It's one of everybody. No, that's what I thought.

I thought, wow, this is very interesting how many times I get tagged. People care so much more about the Jama Rant one than they do any of these other guys. Guess that shows? Guess that show who's the man in the now. Yeah.

It's also the first one that went viral. All the others are like trying to ride the coattails of the first viral video. And I know it went viral because of Jod, to your point. I know. It was well done. It is well done. It was well done. The NBA's been calling a lot of those travels.

Tom Haverstrow had a pot about that, how those numbers are going up right now. Is that right? Which is apparent watching the games. You can see it. Next team, since we just hit, Oklahoma City, and this is the last one we got to hit. Lakers, 10 and 14, 6 and 4 in their last 10,

better, worse, round the same, the rest of the way. The true answer is the same as the Clippers, I don't know. They're going to be better. Well, no, well, the I don't know is because of AD, and the same reason I said with poor Zingish earlier, AD, like he has these amazing games in a row

and then he's out for the flu. There's just always something with Anthony Davis, right? And if you remove him from the equation, you get losses like you had against Cleveland, like you had against Toronto. So I think with the Lakers, I don't know because of AD, but assuming AD plays and he plays like he has the last couple of weeks and he stays healthy, then yeah, the answer is they'll be better for damn sure. Like that's kind of obvious.

And plus they can make a trade too. I think they'll be better, certainly, than they've been thus far. I texted you the other night. If I told you, I was so excited to watch that Lakers Cavs game. And then, of course, he went out after eight minutes. If I told you a player left a game in the middle of the game with flu-like symptoms, how many guesses would it take before you got to Anthony Davis? I'm not good at guessing games like that.

So I don't know, but I probably would have gotten 80 pretty quickly. I mean, Hardin's got to be up there. You could see that happening. Kauai for sure Right I mean I think Kauai and AD would have been some of my first choices Not James

Come on you can see James leaving Flu-like symptoms Hardin Hardin's played Heavy minutes every year of his career I wouldn't have guessed Hardin Really? No Kyrie

Hardin's an iron man He's a flake Kyrie, he's obviously got to be in there. He, like, played 70 plus games every year of his career. Why would you get started? If I'm talking about guys that I think would bow out of something, that I would be suspicious of, he just said that.

Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. You also have to. I'm not playing. If he's playing with flu-like symptoms, yes. They have to have some level of toughness to try to play. through it as well. That's fair.

That's fair. I just don't understand starting the game and then being like, I got flu likes. It's always something. It's always something. And he had been on this, that's why I wanted to see him against Cleveland, you know, with Jared Allen and Mobley. I mean, he's going to get some really formidable big guys that really get back at transition and play defense. And, you know, didn't see it. Didn't get to watch it. So I was just resentful. get to watch it. Also, if you have the flu, don't play.

Right? How does it just cut? I don't understand it coming about eight minutes in. Yeah. Maybe he saw Jared Allen. He was like, damn, man, I ain't playing against him tonight.

Jared Allen was awesome. I saw some Lakers, I think either reporters or fans, I forget off the time. I had tweeting about how at the end of his prior press conference, he was like coughing. Oh, he was?

At his preference, I'm not saying the guy, look, let me be clear. I'm not saying the guy wasn't sick. I'm not. I'm saying if I'm, the problem is if I'm asking somebody, all right,

I'm just going to present you a situation, who do you think it is, that his name would come up very fast. It's just strange. There's always something with A. I'm not saying he's not sick. Oh, no, I'm not saying that. It's a weird scenario to start a game and then bow out of a game.

Well, this is like me, the week of Thanksgiving. I had a head cold that week. And in the middle of recording the draft pod with Jay Kyle, man, I got like fever symptoms. I had a low fever that kicked in while recording the podcast. And he made it through. And I made it through. What a friggin warrior.

What a warrior. I don't think it was my best performance, but it kicked in, like in the middle of the pod. I'm sitting in my chair. I'm like, oh, my God, I need to like go get some water right now. I need to start thinking about you differently, man. You are a damn gladiator. I am tough.

You are unbelievable. I've battled through a lot of adversity. I'm tough. For you to make it through that pod, though, now that I know the circumstances, oh. Yeah. I'm a resilient guy, Chris. I am.

I'm pretty good. There you go. It's one of my best skills in life, I think, for better or for worse. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. We made it through every team in the middle. With no flu like symptoms, none. With no flu like that. We did it.

Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. And Kevin, I'll talk to you next week. I am very much looking forward to it. Chris, everybody, have a good weekend.