The Mismatch - Who’s the Leader in Boston? Plus, Playing in Today’s NBA and Kawhi’s Possible Return.

Episode Date: January 7, 2022

Verno and KOC discuss last night’s wild Knicks victory over the Celtics. They go over the lack of leadership on the Celtics and debate whether Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown can become that true leader the franchise needs (03:16). With the trade deadline approaching, what moves can Brad Stevens make to improve the roster (18:09)? While discussing Julius Randle’s thumbs-down gesture in last night's game, KOC asks Verno how he would react if he were playing in today’s NBA (26:55). Help is on the way for the Clippers, as it has been reported that Kawhi Leonard could return this season from a torn ACL (35:23). Verno finally got a chance to see last year’s top draft choice, Cade Cunningham, and he was not impressed (44:17). Lastly, they go through some of the top stories in the NBA, including Kyrie Irving’s return and Hawks trade rumors (51:50). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Top MMA voices, Ariel Hwani, Chuck Mindenhall, and Pizzie Carroll are live on the Spotify Greenroom app for every major MMA card with The Ringer MMA show. Here the guys react to weigh-ins in real time and find out what they think of the fights the moment the final card ends. Plus, when breaking MMA news happens, they'll be live to talk to you about it. And if you miss the green room show, you can hear it as a podcast anytime on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Misfatch. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Friday from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Climer, Kevin O'clock. Andy Land, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Killian, Kevin O'Concert, Kevin! Burnow! How are you doing on this Friday?

I'm doing great. We had some interesting stuff happened last night in the NBA, so we will start with that, not the least of which was R.J. Barrett hitting an insane game winner over Jason Tatum to cap a 20-plus point comeback for the New York Knicks, and they defeat the Boston Celtics, and there's actually a lot of stuff that came out of this game. First of all, Imaudoka after the game, anytime two big markets play, it's going to get a lot more headlines. And certainly this being on national TV for everybody to see, heightens its exposure greatly. but Ima Odoca very upset with his team, Kevin, after the game, rips his team. If you look at the standings, the Celtics are outside of a play-in scenario.

As of this morning, we are almost to midway through the season. And you have Imae Udoka last night after the game, really laying into his team. and, you know, it's a, it's partly about the one game, but it's really not about the one game that they lost last night to New York. He said, quote, it's guys getting rattled, and when it's not the end of the world, you still have a 12 point comfortable lead, and you've got to end that run. We have to understand time and score, and we need a solid shot, not just get caught up in the game. It's not an open gym. You can't just play the same way the entire game. These are some of the quotes.

But the most scathing were, I think it's a lack of mental toughness to fight through those adverse times. And he said, it's across the board. It's a turnover here. A bad shot there. A missed assignment here. And several missed rebounds tonight. So it's a lot of different things. And I said a calming presence to slow it down and get us where what we want is really.

really what you need at that point. Sometimes we get caught up in it. All right. What do you make of the plight of the Celtics and Udoka coming out and having his lengthiest scathing comments about his team? I mean, what is this, Chris? The fourth time this season he's kind of called out his team after a loss and questioned their leadership or question their heart.

I mean, with Boston, with Odoca, we've talked a lot of. about the roster this season, the need for a traditional point guard, the need for a guy who can calm down players on the court. On the void pot a couple weeks ago, I talked with Gibson about the need for a leader. And that's what he's talking about today. Isn't that why they brought back Al Horford? I mean, Horford's a leader by example. I mean, I think leadership isn't the solve for everything here, but it could lead to some of these more, you know, solid victories when it's a close game down the stretch. And with Tatum being 23, Brown being 25, Horford being, you know, a leader by example, but not the vocal guy, smart, not necessarily being that good enough or great enough to be a

leading vocal player in the locker room. I think there is, there is something to what he's saying about the lack of leadership. But with that said, though, his own coaching individually is as well. It's a first year head coach. At times, I mean, let's just be honest here. Chris. Sometimes I don't feel like he knows what he's doing, a back-to-back having a nine-man rotation, guys are tired, guys are out of energy. It seems that doesn't have great feel for when to call timeouts, to stop runs, doesn't seem to have great feel for his rotations at all. Part of that is because of the roster and the personnel, the options that he has. But part of it is just Udoca at his first year learning how to become a head coach.

And all of this together, his own inexperience, his own individual, as a head coach right now, which is partially okay in your first year. And then factor in the leadership aspect, the roster issues, it's everything all together. It's no one thing. And that's what makes it so complicated to discuss what's wrong with Boston here. It's all of it. Is it possible that all of this leads to one easy answer, which is while they are tremendous players? And still young, but not young, like haven't been in big games, haven't played in high leverage games.

And now they've got big contracts and they've got years. The young thing's got to stop with Tatum and Brown, you know, and that now we have a sample size of what they are, both as players and as teammates slash leaders, and that they don't have an alpha. they don't have that guy. It's all coming back to what he's talking about. Who is going to stop it? Who's the guy that's going to get, that cannot be the coach? Who is the guy that is going to get in the huddle and say it stops now?

Who's the guy that's going to go stop the run? Who's the guy that's going to jump on his teammates when they miss a defensive assignment? You know, that's a way that you are wired. That is not a learned trait. Some guys, as we always talk about, some guys are meant to be generals, and some guys are meant to be privates, you know? And I don't know. You know, it's at this point, I think that when you hear all of these quotes, it does come back to who's that guy that is willing to get in that huddle and jump on everybody.

And we talked about how this was an issue last year because to me, the cause for alarm was not that Marcus Smart flipped out on everybody and was throwing chairs in the locker room. It's that it was Marcus Smart. That was the problem, right? You need that to be one of your best guys or your best guy, not. you know, yes, he's a heart and soul, but he's a role player on that team. And to Adoka's point, you know, look, and as you say, he's learning to be a head coach. Boston has blown four leads of 19 points this season, which is two more than any other team in the NBA.

Unreal. They have been one of the worst teams in the fourth quarter. 26th in offensive efficiency, 25th in deep. defensive efficiency, 29th in net rating, they get outscored by almost nine points per 100 possessions in fourth quarters. That's incredible. Yep. When you've got Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown, like, that's outrageous that they get outscored

in that manner in fourth quarters. And as you and I both know, look no further. if you want to pinpoint their struggles, you can look no further than that number, because how many games do we watch that are truly decided in the fourth quarter? A boatload of them. Most of them, you know,

are within some kind of striking range in fourth quarters. A lot of blown leads and pitiful fourth quarter play. And I wonder, are they both just second bananas? Is that what their destiny is? Tatum and Brown is. And they're starting to realize that now. It's not a demerit.

You know what I mean? To be a second banana. Sometimes great players are second bananas. Paul Gasol was the second banana. It's a great player. He wasn't meant to be the best player on a team. He was meant to be the second best player on a team. Does that explain all the losing?

in the way they're losing this season, though. I mean, to me, like, whether Brown or Tatum or the number two or number one, that doesn't explain some of, like, you know, Udoca playing Al Horford and Robert Williams together as often as he does. It doesn't explain some of the odd lineup choices that he's made over the course of the season, even, like, not playing knee-smith at Lankford in that game last night on the second night of a back-to-back. It's just weird on a second night of a back-to-back.

you're trimming the rotation again. Horford, after a first couple good weeks, is still playing 30 plus minutes per game. He does not look like he's having the same impact defensively that he did early on. I think his minutes should very clearly be dropped to get more with less time on the court for somebody like him. It just seems like, you know,

he's grasping at straws here with what to do when I feel like there's probably more answers on the roster, despite some of the issues, then he's actually utilizing. And when it comes to Tainham and Brown and how they lift the talents of their teammates, 100% sure. I mean, Tatum on the court, he still needs to make further progress as a playmaker. Nine assists last night.

He has some games where we see what he can be offensively when he is passing the ball at an even higher level. But like there's further improvement that needs to happen there. Brown, he has his 50 point night. The other game went out Tateham playing against the Orlando Magic where he looks like an absolute dominant force. and he's had some performances like that this season. On the court, these guys can be your number one, in my opinion.

But what you're asking here, Chris, is like, are they the level where they can be the true face of your franchise, the leader, the guy who handles all of those responsibilities that Udoch is talking about, that we're talking about here? And you said, and as you were talking there about that's something guys just have or they don't. I think that's true to an extent. I mean, like, I'm thinking about Donovan Mitchell, right? Donovan Mitchell is still a young player in this game, but from the people I talk to with Utah, from talking to him specifically, you can sense he's going to grow into himself as a leader.

With Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, Tatum's more of a quiet guy. I'm not sure he has that leadership aspect. Jaylon Brown's the one I wonder about. I mean, he is a vocal person. but it's a little bit different, you know, about, you know, social issues versus as being a leader inside of a locker room. I think he can, I think he can have that and could become that. But then again, Tatum is kind of a guy on the court.

And sometimes it needs to be that guy on the court who is also the vocal leader. Well, and I would be, I'd be a lot more apt to run over Udoca if Brad Stevens could have won with this team. but he couldn't win with them either. And Brad Stevens was one of the best coaches in the NBA. And it's like the same issues of two different coaches, which is why Udoca kind of gets a pass in some ways. Yeah, right? I mean,

from media and some fans. Not everybody's given to, I have a lot of friends who are self-ex fans. A lot of people are pissed off with Udoca. A lot of Celtics fans right now are. Well, people always blame the coach. Of course. He's the first one, right?

But, I mean, all I'm saying is you switch coaches. And the last guy who, we all thought was an outstanding coach and went to multiple Easter conference finals, you know, he had trouble winning with that roster last year. So it's because of, you know, he all of a sudden became less of a coach. Or do they have some issues there with that roster that you can, you can mix and match it any kind of different way? It's not the mix, you know, the old, the old phrase in the South is, it's not the X's and it's the Jimmy's and the Joe's, you know.

Yeah, yeah. I love that line. It's true a lot of the time. But the difference between Odoka and Stevens is Stevens took the bullet after every game. He's like, I got a coach better. We get a coach better. O'Dok is blaming his players all the time, all the time, not taking accountability. I mean, is that the right thing to do?

Maybe putting pressure on the players and blaming them publicly is what needs to happen? Or do you think, like, this is big. Is it wrong? Is it wrong for him to be doing this? This is like a fourth or fifth time or more this season where he's like, you guys are going to be better. The player is going to be better. That's so rare.

Look, I criticize the higher in the sense of much like the, I think it's very difficult to hire a first time head coach that is going to have to learn on the job. And make no mistake, Ima Emo Emo Doca, whatever, kind of coach he's going to be that is going to evolve as time goes on. But he is a first time head coach. And I always think that you can, that you're taking a real risk hiring a guy who's never been in the lead chair and putting him in charge of a team that is expected to win now. generally what you would like is to have those guys be able to learn as they go, to grow with the team.

And you're seeing that around the NBA. And look who is in charge. Sometimes it's miscast. I saw a situation last night where it was miscast. You've got a, quote, win now type of coach coaching a tanking team in Detroit, right? But I've also seen it on the other side where it's like Oklahoma City and they have a coach that is going to grow alongside their franchise and their young players as they come up. Nobody's banging on him for losing games every night, right? But you're a very high-pressurized environment when you've got a team with expectations and you are now going to be the head coach of that team.

and I think that that, I do not, I agree with you. He's doing himself no favors by constantly throwing players under the bus. But I think that is a function of the pressure he feels and his internal need to not be the one blame for what is taking place. Because he questioned their mental toughness. He said guys are getting rattled. He said, you get a 12. point. He sounds like a fan. You got a 12 point lead. You're going to end that run. He sounds like a fan. Well, and Brad Stevens, the reason I say that is because

coaches talk differently regarding their teams dependent upon their level of security. And I think that comes from a place of insecurity. That's what I would tell you. It comes from a place of insecurity. That's why you do that. You speak on that you can say and you can put it on yourself over and over again. But Brad Stevens knew that he can sit there and he can put it on himself. And there's going to be a whole chorus of people that are saying they're going, yeah, Brian can blame himself, but it's not on him. It's not on him, right?

They'll take up for him. And there was nobody questioning whether or not he's a good coach. He knows that. Emeo doca, it's every game. That the reason they're underperforming is because of Emae Odoca, at least in some quarters, right? And so you don't have that level of security. And so you feel like you need to defend yourself, and the way to defend yourself is to put it on the players. Or maybe he's just keeping it real, that they are weak-minded, that they don't have that kind of mental toughness that is required to win.

in the NBA and that he is trying to spurn them on, you know, that being a motivational tactic, but obviously it's not working. I mean, well, let's, you know, for the sake of discussion, either, I mean, it could be both too. I think that's the alternative. I could be both that he's deflecting and that, like, there's a leadership issue on and off the court. No question.

Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, it is about the players. Like, rightfully, he's pointing the figure. And everything he's saying is true. about the guys in that locker room. If you're Brad Stevens, what's your priority between now and the deadline in early February with a lack

of flexibility in terms of what your trade assets are? Is it a big move? Is it like a reshuffle? Are you like doing a soft blow it up here, Chris? Like what's your approach if you're Brad Stevens? And if it is, he,

Brad Stevens would understand it more than everybody that what a do what doke saying after coaching these guys for years. So what's the move? I think that you break up Tatum and Brown. I mean, I brought that up to you. You know, it was one of our first questions going into the season. Is this the last time around for Tatum and Brown? And I think at this point, we're now almost to the midway point of the season. You know, I think both of those guys have insane value. And I think you, that, you don't have to rebuild, you know. I mean, I watched that game the other.

the other night, the Jalen Brown 50. Yeah. It was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. You still got a great player. You know what I mean? And then you can parlay one of the other ones, whichever one you choose, okay,

into a group of guys that helps you on the fly, possibly some things for the future. Like, I think the return you could get, that you could turn yourself into a, much better team. I really do. I believe that. And possibly you decide what is the best

fits around whichever one I'm going to dedicate to. Well, I mean, so few players are truly untouchable. And that includes Tatum and Brown. They are not the untouchable level. Like, there's always a number. There's always a price.

And if I were, you know, I would ask Celtics fans, and I'd be curious about their thoughts if they tweet at us with this, what would you accept as a fan for Jalen Brown? What would you consider acceptable? Like, let's say the Sixers are calling and offering Ben Simmons. What else with Ben Simmons is acceptable, if anything?

If the Grizzlies were to call up and offer you, I don't know, Dylan Brooks, Zaire Williams, and a bunch of future first round draft picks, they're going all in around Jha and Bain. What is it that you would take from those teams? And like, true for any of the other 29th. teams in the league. I'm just curious because to your point there, the return would be massive.

Massive. Massive. Because he's 25 years old and if Brown is and if you were to put him on that trade market, he would immediately become a team that 29 teams are trying to get. Which is why Boston rightfully is like don't really want to trade Brown or Tatum. You'd like to keep those guys. They're so good

and so young. But it's at least just a thought experiment to have within your mind if you're the Boston the Celtics or a fan of the team. And I think that it would not be insane at all. You know, just because, Kev, you could say the best course of action would be to build around those two. Okay, that's fine.

It is. But you have nothing that anybody want. Well, that's the issue here. It's like, how are you building around them? That's the issue is if you do, if you are, you know, building around Tatum and Brown, which all likelihood is what's going to happen, continuing to build with them into the summer. what is it that you trade? Like,

Marcus Smart doesn't have great trade value. Robert Williams is younger. He does have, you know, some, but he's not like a guy who's going to get you. I don't know. Let's just say Jalen Brunson on Dallas.

You're not getting Brunson for Robert Williams. You know, like you're not getting somebody that feels like equal value, but isn't. Like, I don't know, like Grant Williams, knee Smith,

Langford, like some of these guys off the bench that are young, they don't have the trade value. Well, and that's one of the big problems, too, is they haven't developed those guys into assets. It's really tough. Right? Those guys have not developed into assets. You haven't, you know, they haven't taken some of those young players thrown them into the fire, developed them, and turned them into something that people would really want.

No, and then instead they're playing two guards and Schroeder and smart together that can't shoot together. Like they're playing like two bigs together with Horford and Williams when they have Neesmith and Langford some guys who theoretically could be 3 and D shooting wings for you that could bring value in what you need. But those guys that either just haven't developed, they're never going to be good maybe, or they just haven't gotten the opportunity to develop, which is kind of what it seems like you're alluding to.

Let's talk about the flip side of that game, which is the Knicks. It's so crazy how, you know, A year changes everything. The Knicks have virtually the same record as they did at this time last year, but think about the way it is viewed. This year, it has been a disappointment. Last year, they were the story of the league, right? And that is how you perform versus expectations. And this year, that team had expectations.

It has not been near the season for Julius Randall, as he was an all-N-A-performed. former last year. And last night, midway through the fourth quarter, he makes a layup. He's running back to the other end of the sellout crowd who is cheering. He gives them a thumbs down. As he is getting his name cheered. So they're cheering, Randall, Randall, and he thumbs down and tells him to shut the F up. Now, this does not go over. all that well in most quarters, and I would imagine, especially New York, you remember this happened during the baseball season with Javi Baez. He hit a home run, and then he gave the crowd at City Field a pair of thumbs down in response to treatment of him. Randall says, quote,

I really don't give a F what anybody has to say, to be honest. I'm out there playing. Nobody knows the game out there better than I do compared to what everybody has to say. So I really don't give a shit, I just go out there and play. Like, he's still mad after the game because they were on his ass. That's exactly what people who give a shit says. Man.

He cares. My goodness. He said, Randall, who has who had several clip dancers before explaining his actions during the game, was asked if the win was special. I don't know. It was special for our team. We kept battling. Obviously, don't want to get in a

hole, but as a team we kept battling, stayed with it and found blah blah blah and then he went on and you know fornier who against his former team had this massive high a career high in fact 41 he said he probably wasn't happy about the booing honestly no big deal if i were him playing hard as hell when you give everything you have into something and you give so much into something and it doesn't work out and you're being called out it's frustrating but it's a business we're in blah blah blah so anyway this is this is what being in a player in new york is yeah they it's like charles marclay said they you you play good you know they're going to cheer you you you play you play bad people boo you

that's the deal you make that's what charles barclay said at you know after that game and with julius randall you signed your hundred plus million dollar extension and then your defense declines your your jump shot falls apart of course fans are going to be disappointed when so much was invested by the franchise into you and you've gone back to some of your bad habits. Why don't you try harder on defense consistently? Bring it. Bring the energy. Offensively, I think it's fair and acceptable that maybe the jump shot won't improve, but stop record scratching the offense so much. Keep it moving. Keep it flowing. More like last year, this isn't the same Julius Randall that we've seen all the last year when he was rightfully

at all NBA guy. That's why Knicks fans are booing. They know he can get more out of himself. Julius Randall needs to get it out of himself. Well, and there is a level of sensitivity now from players that is, it's just more in focus now. I don't know if it is different, but we just recently saw over the weekend, Tobias Harris, same thing. Don't cheer me now. Like guys really take everything, they take stuff very, very personally, right? If there's murmurs in the crowd or booing, or people say mean things on social media or whatever else. How would you be as a player if you were in that position? How do you think you would be booing, cheering, how do you think you would respond to either of it? I have never.

I've never jumped on a player for being hurt by what people say in the crowd or being upset about it or getting angry like Randall has. Now, I would say a difference with Randall is that he is, he is now an older player in the league. He is a veteran player in the league. I am much more apt to defend the young players that feel that way. And, you know, I come from a point of now, as you have well documented, I'm older now. And I can think back. And I was in the public eye probably too early as a sports talk host in a top 50 market in my early 20s. and people hated me in some quarters.

And it drove me crazy, absolutely crazy. The criticism, and that's not in person. That would be online. That would be, you know, people calling in, whatever it may be. And it did hurt my feelings, and it did affect me in a, huge way. And that was, because I just was not, I wasn't prepared for it, you know, and I, I didn't understand why there were some people that were being so mean. And then as time goes on,

you know, and you will remember, we started this show, what, five years ago, you'll probably remember, you and I had a long discussion at the very beginning of all of it when there were people that would tweet us mean stuff or they would say mean stuff or somebody'd send you a Reddit thread that, you know, said horrible things about either one of us or the show or whatever else, you know, and you and I had this long discussion. And I talked to you at that time about how I developed a thick skin regarding this stuff, but that it took time and that what you realize is there's a couple things here. The people that are saying, that stuff to you or the people that are saying that stuff about you are worry about the people

that are ahead of you criticizing you or saying things. People that are more successful than you. Worry about what they're saying. Don't worry about people that are less successful than you and what they're saying or anonymous people and what they're saying because the truth is people that are more successful than you, they don't have time. They're not worried about you and they're not worried about dragging you down, you know. And you have to put that into perspective. And whether it's our business where we're open to criticism or it's a basketball player who's open to criticism, it is a very difficult thing to deal with when you are young

and you're not used to it. And some guys get hurt by it and some guys get angered by it. and there will be a time where you grow up and you just say, you know what, like, I'm not going to let this stuff affect me. And the best players don't. That's the truth. The best players don't let it affect them in a massive way. And so he'll learn. Or maybe he's just, you know, not cut to be in New York where that is the thing.

Some guys don't want to be cheered when they're doing great and booed with. they're doing bad. They want to be cheered when they're doing good and cheered when they're doing bad or just being indifferent when you're doing bad. But when you are dealing with any kind of place where there's this immense amount of passion for something that's the price of doing business. Yeah, absolutely, Chris. I mean, growing up a Boston sports fan, that's what it was like for me.

And, you know, it's like you boom, you boom when they suck. That's just the way it is. And a lot of big market cities rather than indifference. And I mean, I think, yeah, I remember that conversation we had a long time ago towards the beginning of us starting this show together. And yeah, I mean, I think that's why I ask. It's the type of thing where different situations. But if you are Julius Randall or any player that deals with it, I think for the best way a lot of players use it is it's like an additional motivator. That's what it becomes.

It's like a different type of fuel, right? It's not a primary source of motivation. that can be unhealthy if you're using that as a primary source of motivation. But if you're using hate and criticism as like an extra boost, you know, that little speedbursts, like in Mario Kart, you're running down the track. It works. Yeah, you get a little speed burst. That's what it can be.

But ultimately, like, I think taking in criticism from people who, you know, are either above you or people who, like, are, you know, understand what you're doing is an important aspect. of it, but most importantly is the competition is within yourself and constantly trying to be better than prior versions of yourself and continuing to try to build and improve on the things that you do. You are your own biggest competition in life. You yourself are the person who's oftentimes blocking your own path. And it's about figuring out ways around that and figuring out ways to continue building up, up, up, up. Well, and I understand that the passion that goes along with it, you know,

and that is, that's why some of these places have great fan bases. I also, this is just my opinion, I don't think it does a great service to your team to boo your own players. What about when you're getting paid,

you know, max money and your defense goes from all NBA to back like it's New Orleans again? But what is your goal? Well, very clearly what it is In New York right now, it's public shaming to try to fix an issue. Do I think that that is going to, all right, so I'm all about like, what do I want to happen here? And is this mode of operation the best way for me to get what I want?

And if you think public shaming is the best way to achieve your goal, then so be it. Well, public shaming is very rarely effective online. Yeah, I don't think that's going to work. Public, I mean, we know that from a lot of different social issues. Usually people just say, F you. That's what they say. And that's exactly what Julius Randall says. And this is why, like on the inside, when it comes to Randall, even when I'm saying, like, try harder on defense.

On the inside, Julius Randall might be saying, do you know how tired I was last year during the playoffs? I have to pace myself. I have to pace myself during the regular season. Then I'll start trying harder. Like, he might be saying that to himself. people are booing me, not understanding that I'm pacing myself so we can win in the playoffs.

The problem for the Knicks here is you might not be able to pace yourself in order to get into the playoffs. That's the issue. Other things that we do have to get to, Phoenix, now you look at the standings. They are number one in the Western Conference. They're the first one to 30 wins

because last night they beat the Clippers and the Warriors lost in New Orleans. Morlins, Curry did not play in that game. A couple things out of that. Look, Phoenix is having an outstanding season. I've told you that seeing them in person this year, they have been the team that impressed me the most. I thought they were devastating when they have all of their guys.

When they have eight and they have Crowder, they have Bridges, Booker and Paul, I thought they were devastating. They impressed me the most of any of the teams that I have seen personally this year. They beat the Clippers, but the big story was not necessarily about that game that came out last night, but rather a Chris Haines report saying that we may see Kauai Leonard playing basketball for the Clippers this year, and that he is ahead of schedule. And so I don't know, I don't know what the expectation was necessary. but that will change things.

You know, it certainly changes things. However, we will view the clippers. And my God, if they keep, like, reeling in their time without Paul George, imagine if that dude comes back and it's like, congratulations, you made it to the play in. You're playing against Kauai Leonard and Paul George. Like, oh, that is the worst. And that really is in the cards. Like, I don't think they're going to be top six at the end of the season.

So you're going to be playing them. Yeah, they're in that playing range right now, for sure. Right now they're the eight seat as we record this morning. I mean, the Chris Haynes report, this is the first report that's the first report that's positive for Kauai since the season began. The last one was before the year when he himself, Kauai Leonard, himself said the reason why he signed the long-term contract was to give himself a chance to return in April. Kauai himself said that. He said if he had signed the one-on-one contract extension,

it would have been more financially beneficial for him. But had he signed the one-on-one, he would have just sat out the entire season as to not risk injury after returning. Kauai himself said that back in September, October. So Chris Haynes, we saw the picture of him on social media working hard. Chris Haynes has this report now in January. We're talking about March, April, when Kauai is nearing nine months from that surgery that he had over the summer, that's when the reports are going to get really serious here with the Clippers. Because you look at the rest of this roster, how good they've been defensively all season. Insert Paul George back into it. Insert Kawhi Leonard back into it. Maybe they shuffle a couple other pieces. I mean, is this the favorite?

No. That's probably still Phoenix Golden State. Utah up top in the West, those three teams. But the Clippers would put themselves right there in terms of teams that are built to potentially make a run. And it would be very tough for Kauai to get back into a rhythm come right back in April. But at the least, this gives the Clippers their entire roster and their fan base something to look forward to because there is a real chance of it. If Kauai himself is saying it back in October and Chris Haynes is reporting it now, there's a shot. If he comes back as himself, even 85% of,

himself, they are absolutely a title contender. Absolutely. Yeah. Definitely, they are a title contender. They beat Utah without him. Maybe not the favorite, but they are a title contender for damn sure. But I mean, look, we feel like it would be surprising if the warriors and the sons aren't there at the end of this in the Western Conference.

But I would say you have to put them right in there, as you mentioned, with Utah, and they did beat Utah without him. So what about with him? You know, they've got, they've got the goods. They do. The West is going to look a lot more sturdy if Kauai and Georgia

on that Clippers team. When Murray returns to the Nuggets, some of these top, the current top. Davis comes back. Davis comes back to the Lakers. The Phoenix Sun's still like there without Aiton. And Jalen Smith has stepped up to these last six, seven games been excellent for them in that starting lineup, man.

Like, he's been so good. You think they're going to regret not picking up? Probably. I mean, yeah, like, why wouldn't they regret it? But, like, regardless of the decision that's made, you're the first 31 team, you're the defending finals representative in the West. And despite all the circumstances, the screw up and all this and that, you know, whatever, what you have is a 21-year-old big man who can shoot threes, who can throw down

lob dunks who can hit shots off the bounce for you. That's what you have right now. Like that team, the sons have a 21 year old player doing that out of nowhere, regardless of the circumstances, regardless of everything else. That is a major, major X factor for this franchise right now

to have Jalen Smith performing at this level because I'm buying it. I'm buying what we're seeing. I can't believe them not picking his deal up is just insanity. I think they've reported it's a first one to Joe Alexander, like, what are we doing here? And it's one of those things where it's like these, a minor thing in the grand landscape because they're winning and so people don't care as much.

But that's outrageous. Is that just a server thing? Like, what do you? And it's like, well, I'm going to have to pay Aiton where the season's over. And so I'm not, I don't get giving up on that kid when he has played so few minutes. And then, I mean, I didn't have the deal. When I saw him a couple weeks ago, he had his career high at that time.

And so maybe I was a little bit persuaded more than I should have been. But when I watched him, I certainly didn't think, oh, my God, this guy sucks. And do you use the top, what, 15 draft pick on him? not that long ago. Yeah, he's a lot of a pick. It is bizarre. It's, I mean,

it was for tax reasons next season. You know, that's why they did it. It seems pretty damn cheap to me. Got a chance at the title. Yeah. For whatever this window is, you're going to have a chance at the title for multiple years.

But like I said, though, regardless of that, like it's a mistake and it's worth being talked about when we are talking about it. Oh, because they didn't have any, anything to go to when Aiton got in foul trouble.

Yes, exactly. But regardless of the mistake, now they're in a position where they have this X factor on their team and that suddenly changes things in terms of who they are and the options that they have, the lineups that they can throw out there, it changes the complexion of what the Sons can be. Like earlier this week had the conversation with Kyle Mann on the Void Potter part about like the importance of LeBron at the five for the Lakers is, is, to do it all the time like they are now.

It's to do it when it makes sense to do it when you have 80 back in your primary, your base offense, your base defense is 80 at the 5, LeBron at the 4. LeBron at the 5 is something due when it makes sense. Now the Sons are in a position where if Jalen Smith is for real, which it seems like he is, he still got to work on defense, be a little bit less jumpy, but offensively, like it's fun to watch. Now you're in a position. You could play some two big lineups because Smith can space with Aiton and Smith.

You can have Smith as the big behind Aiton. If you're in a matchup where instead of having Aiton's rim running, maybe you need a spacer. You can go five out with Smith. It adds a whole new element to what the suns are in ways that I think are going to be more profound moving forward than even what it appears to be today. It's big for them. And sometimes you fall into something.

They fell into that, you know, because Aiton's out, because Frank the tank's out. You know, who knows? The kid may never have got. gotten to play. He may have not getting any minutes again. You know, clearly, organization didn't have faith in him. And I'll give him credit. He stayed ready, you know,

and you have seen these stories all over the league of guys, the whole stay ready so you don't have to get ready. And your number has a great chance of being called this year, even if you're somebody that's out of rotations, not in lineups, been given up on by a team, whatever it may be, everybody's been called into action. There's guys that have not even been in, there's guys sitting on their couch that will be called into action within the next week.

That's just the state that we're in as they're trying to get by in the NBA. And it's a good story of a kid who probably was not going to get his opportunity, but because of all the circumstances of the season did get his opportunity. and now it's a revelation and it ends up being great for the team. I saw the Pistons in person last night. Kev. No. No.

No. No. No. No. No. No. What about Kate? Kate had in a rough night.

I was focused on your guy. Really? On Siddique Bay? No. A Luca Garza? No. Diallo? Oh, Killion.

No. Who had four turnovers to two field goals out of ten shots. Oh, I saw it. I saw it. I was like, you know what? It's a rough night, man. I was like, I'm going to be the beacon of positivity. Here's my chance to get this, see this kid in person.

And I'm going to find the good. and I'm going to be able to report it on the mismatch. I'm going to say, you know what, Kev? I think you're right. You just give him some time. But I'm sorry to report, Kevin. I saw none of it. Instead on your scattering report, you have written out in all capital letters.

Good grief. Good grief. Good grief. What is going on here? Cunningham. Okay, a few things on him. It was my first time to get to see him in person. I was scheduled to get to see him in the person.

preseason and did not get to. First time I got to see him in person. First thing that stands out is, you know, you always get a different gauge of these guys when you see them up close and personal. And a couple weeks ago, I came on the air and I told you about Josh Giddy. And I said, that is a big dude. He is bigger than I thought he was. He is imposing as a back court player that can do everything.

He can throw over your head. He's just, he's a big guy, like tall. I don't care what they list Kate Cunningham at. He is not what they list him at. They list him at 6'6 because he is not 6'6. And you see him. I juxtapose it against somebody like Giddy. I guess just watching on TV and then thinking,

about him, I always had this impression that he was like a big guard. Like an impose, you know, size wise he was imposing or that he's a big guard. And he's really not. He's not as big as I thought he was. Hit a little heater, I think, in the third quarter. I know he had a rough shooting night. But you could certainly see the flashes of, like, that kid's, he's going to be a special player in the league. He's going through a rookie year on a really bad team, getting a lot of attention.

But I do think he's a player. But he's not as big as I thought he was. I thought he was a big guard. And when you see him standing next to somebody that is big, like a Dylan Brooks or something, he's not like, and I don't expect him to be Dylan Brooks size. And frankly, I didn't expect him to necessarily be giddy size. But if he's listed at 6.6, he's more like 6.4. That's my opinion. Seeing him in person, I said, Dylan Brooks, how much do you think he can get, like, wider, stronger, like, Dylan Brooks?

Yes, he's got the body that can be big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's still young. He's 20 years old. And I'll tell you this, one of the, he had to take the wrath of what many opposing players. And then next time, people will see this when they watch Grizzlies games. So on one of the ends, which is basically across from the Grizzlies bench, on the front row,

there are a couple individuals that have season tickets that sit there, one of which is T. Morant, John Moran's father, he wears these opposing guys out. I mean, And poor Kate Cunningham, T. Moran was on his ass last night. Has he gone at Julius Randall? No, no, no, no. But all these young guys around the league, most of them know him, right? And so, and no Jaws' dad.

But he was going, he was going at Cunningham. And Cunningham was barking back at him. And obviously it was not working out for Cunningham. he was, he's like yelling at him that he wasn't, he's like, you're not ready, you're not, you weren't ready for this, that you're, you're a baby, and you could only foul because you're too slow, you can't keep up, you know, he's just on his ass. And Kate Guttingham's having to bark back at it. It was great. It was real, like, real theater. He apologized, he got up and he yelled at one point at the free throw line. He yelled at Josh Jackson that he was

sorry that we sent him to Detroit. Sorry, we sent you there, Josh. He's the best. And it's all like fun-loving. It's not like mean stuff. It's never mean stuff. It's just him barbershop talking crazy. Yeah.

I mean, you guys going to get him miced up. We really do. Yeah, get him miced up. That's a great idea. I need to float that as getting him miked up for one of these games. because people would howl if they heard him yelling at Kate Cunningham. Poor kid.

He's on a bad team. He's a rookie. And now you got the opposing point guard's dad making fun of you. Every time you get blown past or anytime anything happens, you just got a foul. You're too slow. You're not ready for this game. That's amazing. Oh, it was so good.

But yeah, that's the worst team I've seen. they're worse than Oklahoma City by wide margin. Now, again, I've seen Oklahoma City where they don't have their guys. They lost by 70. But just talent-wise, they're the worst. Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. I think it's fair. That's the worst team.

It's very fair. They've got less guys that I would pluck off of it than anybody else. And I don't say that to be mean to Detroit or Detroit fans. I love you But you know You know what your team is There's more guys off of Orlando That I would pluck off

You know I love Cole I like Wendell Carter I'm a Suggs Truther Even though he's out for Ever There's some guys I still like Isaac

Even though If he ever plays basketball again I don't know How about Bamba Are you with me I mean You want to join No

Want to be a Bamba lever Bobbillie No I can't have That was a good little flash In the pan Early in the season But he had 19 the other night

Against the Sixers Oh really? Yeah, he had 19 points On 8 to 12 What's the phrase That the bear shit's in the woods Or whatever Like

I don't know I don't know good phrases Okay Markief Morris Called the Nicoliook A fat tub of goo Or what did he call him Hold on

Let me find the exact quote something like that. It was something along those lines. 300 pound, yeah, 300 pounds sloppy fat boy. I think mine was actually less. Tubbagu is better than 300 pounds sloppy fat boy. That was pretty funny.

That was funny, though. He says, so somebody tweeted Mark E. Morris, no, didn't even tweet him. It was Legion Hoops tweeted out, this is wild. Markief Morris has missed 30 straight games for the heat since he got whiplash from the scuffle with Yokic. Sheesh. Markiev Voresh retweets it and says,

ain't shit wild about it. It's a real injury. Imagine having a 300-pound sloppy fat boy run full speed and make direct contact with your spine. I'll be back soon, like I said. Do you think Yokic has gotten a pass? That if another guy, would have injured a guy this badly that it would have been viewed in a different manner?

Or do you think he's gotten a pass because he's a reigning MVP? The game was in hand and Markief Morris took the first cheap shot. And so while it was not something to be lauded more understandable at the time than a normal reaction that would have hurt somebody. No, I mean, I think the reason why he got a quote-unquote pass because people are reasonable people for the most part, and they can see video of him putting his elbow into his ribs and then turning his back afterwards

when the cheap shot from Yokic happened. But like he started it. There's video evidence of him starting it literally seconds before Yokic ran into him. And Yokic should not have done what he did at the time. but Morris started it. I think people can use their two eyeballs and see that, and people are reasonable. First time I had really realized that Markeith Morris had been out for 30 games was when that tweet came out.

Sloppy Fat Boy is interesting, and I wonder if the Yokic brothers are going to reactivate their account. Yeah, I think 300-pound sloppy White Boy, that could go on T-shirts. Yeah. Sloppy, sloppy fat boy. Sloppy fat boy. That's pretty good. I mean, he's not sloppy and fat anymore. Doesn't matter.

That's what makes it especially fun for the Yokic brothers. Sometimes it doesn't matter. We had the Kyrie return. Surprise, surprise. Kyrie Irving's still good at basketball. We'll get to see him as a part-time player now. But how weird is this? I mean, it's strange.

It is strange. It is strange. They're like, you're going to flip on the nets and you're going to know whether home or road dependent upon whether or not you're seeing him play.

It's bizarre. Very strange. I mean, look, it's also bizarre that you bring back the unvaccinated guy because you need players. Like,

yeah, there is a ridiculous, unfortunate irony in that. Of course. Wait, what? Like, you need players. And so,

okay, so now we've got to, we're down to bringing back the unvax guy. Now, him remaining, available is going to be interesting because they announced today

that he'll be undergoing daily testing, right? Yep. I mean, we'll see with him, but I mean, they do have a lot of away games coming on up. They have the Bucks tonight, Friday, the Spurs on Sunday. After that, six of their next eight are on the road. Portland,

Chicago on the road, Ben O'KC in New Orleans at home, but then Cavs, wizards, Spurs, Wolves, all on the road before they're back home against the Lakers, which is a game they sure would have loved to have Kyrie. And then the Nuggets, a game they sure would have to have Kyrie. It's going to, it's going to

having him, to not having him, for some pretty big games coming up. But we'll get to see him for an extended stretch soon. Two other things that I wanted to mention before we get out of here. We are going to have, we've got, you know, over a month still before the trade deadline. But

for sure, and especially with teams that are not performing up to expectation, there are going to be trade rumors. You and I even started at the beginning of this talking about that whole Boston situation, and I'm sure there are going to be all banner of people, if they don't fix things rather quickly, talking about what they should be doing. And everybody's always looking at the trade market and how they could possibly improve their teams. already one rumor that kind of got floated around,

and that was about the Atlanta Hawks, and considering trading Cam Reddish and Danilo Gallinari. So as this went, the athletic Sam Amick said, Reddish and Gallinari are the likeliest trade candidates in a two-for-one sort of deal. saying both are somewhat redundant on the court as Reddish is likely behind DeAndre Hunter, Kevin Herder, and Bogdanovich in the long-term wing rotation, and Gallo is behind John Collins at Power Forward.

Both have notable contract situations. Gallinari is guaranteed only $5 million next season, so long as he has waived before June 29th. Reddish is eligible for rookie extension. And so you'd have to find, though for sure, I would imagine be somebody out there that loves Cam Reddish and would jump at the opportunity to trade for him now in order to sign him to a long-term extension. But what did you think about when you saw those names being floated around? Do you think that's a package that could net you a big return? Maybe, depending on how high someone is on Camerdottish.

If I'm Atlanta, my preference is to not trade Cam Reddish. He's 22 years old. He's a 6-8 wing. He's shown flashes of some great scoring ability, and already he's a very good quality 3-&D player. To me, if I'm Atlanta, I'm training Bogdanovich or Herder. Those guys have overlapping skills. They are very similar with what they bring to the floor.

Neither of them bring the defense or the upside that Cam Reddish provides to this roster. If you're building something out with Trey Young, as small and as tight, tiny as he is on defense, you got to have lengthy wings around him like Kim Reddish, like DeAndre Hunter. To me, I'm trading Gallo. Yes, I'm open to trading Reddish if the return is significant. It may not be. The preference is to break up Bogdanovich and Herder and deal Gallo. That's the way I'd be operating moving forward if I'm the Atlanta Hawks. What if you have already got indications that the price for Reddish is going to be extreme in the offseason?

Because there is a money thing. You know what I'm saying? I'm still moving off my other money guys. Bogdanovich is making $18 million. Herder was going to be making $15 million next season. Like those guys are making money too. I mean, I'd move off one of them still. And Gallo, like I said, because he's making 20 plus.

Yeah, well, Gallo is a given, right? Yes, he's a given to get rid of at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The question is reddish. And I just don't have a great gauge right now. on what kind of money, Reddish, you know, who's got a command in the off season. This summer, his deal doesn't kick in anyway.

It would be 23, 24 when it kicks in. But you're signing an extension. You know, that's what you do. Still, you get at least one more year of him at under $10 million in the cap, though. So, I mean, I think for Atlanta, it depends on what you get. Like, that gives it more value, too.

British could lead to a greater return. So if the deal for Radesh was worth it, then you do that. But my preference would be to get rid of Bogdanovich or Heter. Break those two up. It's a good point because you might be able to get unbelievable return if someone out there is in love with him. And they have gotten some kind of behind the scenes confidence from his representatives that he would be there long term. Now, if you're the other team, and you do really believe in what his future is, you sit there and you go, hold on now.

We got a chance to get the next four to eight years, you know, with this guy in our franchise. And so whatever we're giving up right now is worth that. Because, yes, we are committed, you know, we're so high on him that we'll pay him whatever. We'll give him a massive contract because we want him in the fold because that's how much we believe in him as a player going forward. which is, like, if Amick's already putting that out, you know that Atlanta doesn't feel that way about him, you know, because otherwise you'd say he's an untouchable. He's one of the guys we're not moving.

And you'd talk more about moving the other guys. I mean, he's not an untouchable. I mean, so few players are. You know, the interesting thing is you have Travis Schlank out on an Atlanta radio station this week, outwardly openly saying, you know, we talked about accountability earlier in our conversation in regards to Odoka, you know, he himself was like, it's my mistake. Maybe I shouldn't have brought everybody back.

Like the GM himself is saying on the radio station, like, maybe I'm to blame me. That was on 929 FM the game, or Schenck has a weekly interview. And it's like, it's like I got to make better changes. So he himself was openly talking about how he might do some stuff over the next six weeks. It's going to be fun to watch this trade market too. Yeah, I hope it's fun. Well, with those teams that are underwhelming, any of these teams that are

not living up to expectation, there's a lot of good players that could be on the move. And you figure there's a lot of teams that really want to win now and certainly don't want to be in those play-in spots where they're having where it's left a chance. So I think you are, you know, with the amount of teams that are trying to be competitive and either making, you know, having the goal of making the playoffs

or becoming a top six seed so they don't have to worry about their playoff, you know, lives. I think you'll see a lot of movement. I think that's what more competition brings. There's a lot of movement, you know, and a lot of teams that are encouraged to try to alter what they've got going because they know that it's not good enough. Yeah, we'll see. We kind of bookend to the show with those two, which is Boston and Atlanta.

I mean, I guess they could just stand pat. They could always decide to sell. They could always decide to be significant buyers. Same with teams in the West, like Portland and Sacramento. They could sell. They could buy. We just don't know which way it's going to go for some of these teams. It'll be a fun next month to say the least.

Oh, yeah. It will be. Thank you to our producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Kevin, I will talk to you next Tuesday. Clay coming back on Sunday Can't wait