The Mismatch - Will the Real Anthony Davis Please Stand Up, Imagining Ben Simmons With the Spurs, and the Mess in Indiana

Episode Date: December 10, 2021

Verno and KOC discuss the Grizzlies-Lakers game from Thursday night. Verno was there and he details his experience watching the purple and gold up close for the first time this season (01:26). Anthony Davis hasn’t been the same kind of player and it was evident vs. the Grizz, so the guys debate what his issue is (05:21). They also take a deeper look at the Lakers' roster and coaching staff and identify all the issues they’ve had this season (12:53). They next look at the 76ers and debate whether Ben Simmons will get moved before the deadline (25:34). They have some fun and imagine Simmons getting traded to the Spurs and how his personality would fit in San Antonio (31:56). They next discuss what the heck is going on with the Pacers (41:08). Verno discovers that the Pacers haven’t had many bad seasons while KOC believes that now is the perfect time for them to start a rebuild. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The ringer gambling show is here to help you place your bets on the biggest sports around the world. Join NFL analyst Warren Sharp on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays with guests Chris Vernon, Ben Solac, and Joe House to guide you through the NFL betting landscape. Each week, they'll cover everything from spreads, game totals, and parlays, to player props, futures, post-game reactions, and more. Check out the ringer gambling show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon.

And join me see this every Friday from the wringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K., Kevin O'C., Kevin O'Clymer. Kevin O'Carver, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Candyland, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien. What's going on? It's Friday. Yeah, I am, I'm dragging a little bit because it was a late night last night for me as I was at Grizzlies versus Lakers. And there were only three games going on last night. We'll kind of touch on what took place. But that's the one I was at, the Grizzlies with Al Jiam Morant.

And then right before the game, it is announced that, Dylan Brooks is going into safety protocols. So he's not going to be in the game. That's announced, and then the Grizzlies end up beating the Lakers by double digits. It's my first time seeing the Lakers in person this year. And oh, Kevin.

Oh, Kevin. Tell me, Chris. What did you learn? So the beginning of the game, LeBron James comes out, and he is locked. in on the defensive end. Like zero dark LeBron note.

Social media's off. Yeah. This is, and I'm thinking of myself, oh, Lord. Like, they got, they got locked in LeBron last night on a mission, LeBron. And this is going to be a problem, especially because you have a dearth of very few big wings. and the one that you really have for a guy like LeBron is Dylan Brooks. It's the best chance you got. And now they've just announced he's out.

And now LeBron has come out with this focus. So this could get ugly. And instead, what took place is it was a short spurt. And then once the Lakers brought in their bench and the Grizzlies brought in their bench, it all even back up. And then I really. felt like, and this is going to be true. I think it's very frustrating

to watch, I think if you're a Laker fan, but I've covered teams like this. They are so veteran laden that they are the, we'll turn it on at the end team. You know, you can see that

a lot of them expend the absolute minimum amount of energy to still be within range and win the game. But they're getting caught, as you know, over and over again, doing this. And they're also a team that when they look across and they see, all right, you're without your guys. This is how we talked about this last year with Oklahoma City.

This year, Houston applies. There's a lot of teams that go in there and then they say, all right, we're just going to, we're just going to turn it on at the end. We'll run off on them and we'll get out of here with the win. And so you have some of these teams that then they hit a couple shots. The young teams get some confidence. Next thing you know, that veteran team that said they were just going to turn it on, they end up losing. And one of the things that stuck out to me last night is when you can operate that like that

is when you know you can just shut a team down completely. You're just not getting baskets. Like every trip down the court, you're getting a stop. And then they'll get their points on the other end of the court. And that's how it happens. And to me, that's why they cannot play like this with the, all right, we're going to expend the small amount of energy and then we'll crank it up when we have to against some of these teams. And the reason is they can't get the stops.

You have to be able to get the stops in order to be the veteran team that cranks it up at the end and comes away with the win, right? You try for about the last 10 minutes of the game, like really lock in. They can't get the stops in order to do that. And I was a bit, I think like everybody, the reaction to Charles Barkley really taking a run at Anthony Davis the other night on T. was somewhat surprising, I think, for some people. And it was partly his defense of Frank Vogel and then really jumping on Anthony Davis. Seeing him in person last night, I will tell you that it is one of those things where I don't care what the numbers say.

Charles Barkley is absolutely warranted in his criticism of Anthony Davis because it is not the same. I've watched this guy come into the arena for whatever it is, 10 years, 8, 10 years. It's not the same. He's in this weird spot to me where, and Bill's talked about this, he is not the hulking giant that plays very physical, though he has put on this extra muscle and he's not the nimble fly around defend everything, deflect everything, block everything guy, either.

It's kind of like, to me, he has gotten, unfortunately, in the middle of these two things. You know what I mean? Like you're not the banged down the 15 to 18 footer, beat guys off the drip. and hammer on them, fly around the court, finish above the rim guy. He got blocked twice last night, Chris.

By Kyle Anderson. Yeah, by Kyle Anderson. And 80 and the first one, I remember, like, Kyle Anderson from behind. And 80 wasn't explosive around the rim on a pass in the pick and roll from Russ. Well, and then the other thing is they're most effective with him at the five. Stephen Adams had eight offensive rebounds. Yeah. The Grizzlies had like 13 offensive rebounds or 14 last night.

tons of, I mean, go look at the field goal attempts because they turned it over, you know, a hundred times. They're loose with the ball. And then they give up a ton of offensive rebounds. And you have not only the fighting with Stephen Adams underneath and he's winning those, even when he was matched up with Jared Jackson, Jared Jackson tomato chested him. So they call it when you bang into the guy and he starts going backwards, bang into the guy. And he starts, you know, tomato chest and lay in.

and I'm like, what has happened to this guy? Like, yeah. What, what has happened? I mean, Stephen, Stephen Adams, like, you watch back some of those offensive boards, just completely manhandling him, you know, like, he's the one, like, in the proper positioning for those. He looks like the guy going for the defensive boards. He's in such good positioning. Does that make sense, Chris?

Like, some of those, it looks like he's the guy grabbing the defensive board. But, like, AD just wasn't able to box out Adams. Adams was out hustling, out muscling him. And, like, I don't believe all eight of them were against AD, but six or seven probably were from what I remember. And I don't know, man, like, 80 at the five, he really needs to. Is it an effort thing? Is it a toughness thing? Is he just complacent?

He did say after winning the finals, I don't know. I have nothing to prove to anyone. Earlier this year he did, I believe that those comments were made. I don't know. It's just like, where is the grit, man? Where is it? People can agree. or disagree, but I think, in my opinion, he's perilously in the middle right now.

When you are not the strong guy and the Grizzlies, more so than any other team, are able to expose that because it's like, all right, here's these two individuals. Here is Stephen Adams, who's the big Hulk that you got to go on. up against. And here is Jaron Jackson, which is what you used to be, right?

The nimble guy that stretches out the floor that can go to the basket, make post moves, but he can also, you know, he can space for you. He can space the floor for you. And he's like,

he's not a floor spacer on offense right now. You know, Goldsbury had that stat, whatever it was last week, on that mid-range. He was like the last, the qualifying players.

And so where Charles is right is he's 27. Still so young, Chris. That's what Janus is. Yeah. Yonis. We don't think of it.

Janus just dropped 50 in a close-out game in the NBA finals and he's like, I got to come back better. Well, it keeps getting better and better and better. Yes. Right? And it's just odd. It's odd to see.

Now, beyond that, their roster is just a bizarre construction. It's old. And in terms of, you know, what they have in order to make things happen, I would imagine that it'll probably be THT, that, I mean, that's their only asset. And he's such a weird fit right now, too, because. Like a shooting there as well, Chris. Well, he's also, he's 20 years old

And he's on this veteran, real veteran, like 15, Laidant team. I mean, I sat there and I wonder like, Who does this guy hang out with? He's like the only guy that's like, you know, he's the only guy that like really doesn't fit amongst the group, Even like age wise. So I'd imagine what they'll probably do is like what LeBron always did.

They'll move off of him as a young guy to try to get, and they'll get another veteran that could come. come in there and they'll still just be, and they'll actually get older doing that probably. I don't know, man. Like I told you, in the end, you got LeBron, you got Davis. You've got to be able to turn it up in the playoffs. But I've seen a lot of teams already through the first third of the season come in. And when I juxtapose it versus when I saw, say, Miami, when they had everybody,

when I saw Phoenix, when they have everybody, they're not as good. They're not even. They're not even in the same hemisphere with those teams right now. Now, again, they may just not care. It's totally possible that they may just not care, and we're going to see what they really are come playoff time because one of the things that some of their traveling party told me last night

was they got Russ. Because they know LeBron is, he views the season as a 365 day season, and he's going to expend the minimum amount of energy to win games. But damn, man, he's playing 37 friggin' minutes a night. His, his minutes. In fact, last night, I think, was he plus two? So, I mean, they're minus 15. They were a plus two with LeBron.

Okay. So they're minus 15 the rest of time. I mean, he has to be on there for them to even have a chance. In the other 11 minutes. Yeah, exactly. Yep. So 37 minutes, he played 37 minutes 24 seconds and there are plus two during that time. All the other remaining time, as you said, Chris, outscored 15.

So that's the crazy thing. Yeah. To me. You said a lot about the Lakers, Chris. I mean, the one thought on my mind. with this team is how much how much can efforts solve these problems like with lebron he had so many lazy cross-court passes where he's not putting a lot of you know power behind the ball grizzlies are picking it off with ease getting deflections many many times last night um russ and ad they've shown

some chemistry over the course of the season in the pick and roll and yet there were times when ad was rolling down the lane and russ and him just seemed so disconnected than the timing of when that pocket pass goes to Anthony Davis. There was one occasion or I remember where Russ was driving towards his right, I think left his feet. And AD almost as if looked like he didn't know the ball was going to be coming his way. He wasn't expecting it. There's just like a lack of chemistry between those two.

And how much does, you know, LeBron going to 150% effort? How much does AD turning it up to 150% effort solve the fact that it's not just those guys? As you said, Chris, the rest of the roster has some weird, funky fit issues here. You know, so I feel like their team, December 15th is coming up in a week.

They got to make a move, right? They have to. Yes. Of course they do. They're not, they're not anything close to what they were defensively, which is what I said. They can't just turn it up. But I will say on offense,

there's about a three-minute span where it felt like they were just, and this is what they, do in the playoffs. In the last eight minutes of a lot of these games, every single shot's going to be taken by one of those two guys and the other guys just got to try to space the floor. They got to have guys that can space the floor and can defend. That's it. They're an easy thing to build around because like I said, they were already down double digits, but there's a couple of them where they just run like a high pick and roll where Davis flies to the basket. Nobody could stay in

front of LeBron when he gets his head of steam. He takes off and then he just lobs it up to Davis and he gets the dunk. I mean, and this is very basic basketball of which they could do a lot, right? They take a lot of like stepback threes. They dick around, you know, for most of the game, honestly. But there are the moments where you can watch them and you go, this is why. When it gets to the playoffs, they're just going to say nobody else touches the ball. Let's get us home.

and those two are going to be the ones to do it. But it's only in short sports now, and that's why they're 500. I'll tell you what, though, Chris, I mean, I know a lot of people say, you know, what can Frank Vogel do with this roster? But he played DeAndre Jordan for a month and a half. It didn't work.

And then he goes to Dwight Howard for a couple games in a row where he's getting around 20 minutes per game and drops him down to 10 against Memphis with a tough, you know, center and Stephen Adams, you know, like we talked about earlier. So it's very strange some of the decision that Bogle makes. Like, I would, I would have expected someone like Austin Reeves.

Very, you know, hard-nosed, tough bench player for the Lakers this year. He's kind of like their new Caruso that fans are rooting for. And Reeves has been pretty good, right? He was a good college player. That guy could get a bucket for you. He didn't play last night. I feel like there's some answers in the Lakers rotation, and Bogle is not leaning into playing Dwight for 20 minutes consistently.

He's not leaning into a guy like Reeves to see what we actually have in this rookie. I mean, I feel like that coach. staff, specifically Frank Vogel needs to start asking themselves, what can we do with the guys that we have on this roster with this rotation to maximize it? Pulling DJ was an important first step, but getting Dwight Howard more than 10 minutes also seems to be like an important factor as well for that team. Well, and you watch like last night and no one is more surprised at what the Grizzlies have been able to do without John Morant than everybody here. Because they've been six and one, defense has been much better. They've gotten some awesome wins.

Jared Jackson has been outstanding. But they just throw in everybody. So, like, you can't get a, you can't do the, oh, well, you're down guys or whatever else because the Grizzlies are throwing Killie and Tilly out there. They're throwing John Conchar out there. But one of the things about that- And those guys are turning out to be pretty good, though, Chris, aren't they? Well, they're turning out pretty good.

And this is a credit to development, and this is a credit to Taylor Jenkins. You know, they throw Jared Culver out there. Jerich over out there. Derek Culver hasn't played anything but garbage time, and he made a massive impact on the game last night, and he has not even played. He was, he played in a G-League game three days ago, all right? And everybody that checks in knows how to play and how to play within the offense. And sometimes basketball can be intensely simple, Kevin, right? There's stars and there's role players.

Here's the guys that take the most amount of shots, and here's the guys that take the least amount of shots. and then the other guys, you've got to try to fill in the blanks. And that championship team, and it's why people always wonder, and I know sometimes it's gotten a little overrated, but the whole Alex Caruso was great next to LeBron James. Well, this isn't that hard outside of the individual talent of the guy. He's a role player. Like, if you have LeBron James and you have Anthony Davis,

find three role players that fit around them. That's it. It's not that whole. hard and then have everybody else on the team understand what their role is. You don't have role players, right? Like that's almost why the success of Caldwell Pope with them. Colwell Pope knew his role on that team. He wasn't going to come out and take 27 shots or some crap, right?

And so even with the Christie's, it's kind of adjusted. Bain's been taking more shots. Jared Jackson has been taking more shots. But like if you're Killie and Tilly, you can't come out and shoot the ball. 13 friggin' times. Like, that ain't what you do. Everybody knows their position and what is expected of them. And the Lakers, I don't know.

I mean, you're never going to get Russell Westbrook to be a role player. That's just not happening. And then the other guys, you're trying to fit him into weird roles. It's like, all right, I go get Monk. Monk's supposed to be a heater off the bench, right? That's what he is. But you're not going to be a heater off the bench when you're coming in with Carmel. Hello. You're not going to be a heater off the bench when you're coming in with other guys.

You know, like, they got, they got weird roll things going on. And as you said, Vogel, even after last night's game, said, yeah, I'm tinker with the lineup. And I'm going to tinker all out with the lineup until we figure out something. So one last thought here that just came to mind. Everybody talks about trading Russ, which is probably impossible. $44 million contract. Every team has a guard, you know, like this is not possible. what about Anthony Davis

Chris what if you traded Anthony Davis no no what are you talking about I'm just throwing the thought out there I'm not saying I would do it I'm just throwing the thought out there after everything we just talked about the lack of heart the lack of effort it feels like at times he's mentally checked out out there on the floor

I'm just throwing the thought out there what if you decided to say hey we'll shop around for offers you want me to make you lose your mind sure so I thought about it possible if in fact they did want to move for us. Oh, my God.

Send them back to Houston. If they got traded for each other again, that would be the funniest thing ever. It's the only trade partner, right? Yeah, send him back to Houston. That's funny. And then let him get the pie out, right? Oh, my God.

Yeah, then he gets the pie out. It's 80, 80, 80 might be the one guy they'd be like, yeah, bring John here. And then where does Russ go? Like after your brus gets bought out, let's just go down this path and have some fun with it. Clippers. Clippers, I was able to say. We call George.

Yeah, exactly. I was just thinking. Who Paul George ran away from to get to? He's like, yo, I got to get back to L.A. I know. I'm into that. That'd be a fun path. When you said, imagine if that actually happened.

Oh, my God. When you said there's absolutely no way you could trade it, I was like, well, there's one guy. Yeah, there's. one. There is one. Other than that, though, like, other than that, there really isn't. There really isn't one other than that, right? Knicks, maybe Knicks, you know, Nix could be like, yeah, we want Russ, the star power and all that, but I don't know. I don't know about that. They also don't really have the salaries to make a deal easily. So, I don't know, man. I think Houston might be the one. Would that be unbelievable? It would be hilarious, dude. It would be

absolutely hilarious. Is he all a clutch guy? Yeah, he is. He is. He's a clutch guy, Chris. That's, I don't even, I don't even want to throw it. I mean, I know it's going to get aggregated. Lord knows.

Yeah, it is. No, that won't get aggregated. That wasn't a report. That was just an idea. It also, like, it's an idea that might be the only one idea that actually works. It's like all possibilities.

What other team is going to trade for Russell Westbrook? Well, and you're talking about, you're talking about a guy that would play a role and a guy that is represented by the same guy that, I mean, the team is for that matter. Right. Yeah.

It's pretty good. I did think about it last night. Only are there two games? that were going on last night is another team that might feel the need, and we are five days away from teams being able to move everybody

for the most part. Utah killed Philly in Philly. And I say this because Philly is one of those teams where you don't know, right? We could be hurtling towards something taking place with them. Because as we have mentioned, and I know you preach patience on them,

it appears the McCollum thing is probably off the table, though they got bandied about a lot over the course of the past week. Given his health status, you have collapsed lung, correct? Yeah. Collaps right lung for Cs to McCollum, which. Really tough. And thoughts with him, man, because that is a scary thing. I'm glad they caught it.

And there is no set timelines, the sideline indefinitely, correct? Correct. Yeah. That is tough. tough for Portland as well I mean forget about the idea of not having that for Philly tough for Portland Absolutely and you right now

As we said with all of these teams Dealing with their own Challenges Two weeks could really determine Where you are seating wise And you do know that this is one of the This is an imbid year Of which he is in his prime

And you certainly don't want to squander that And you saw what they looked like against a really good team last night. There's not that many really good teams in the league. That's one of them. It's a good litmus test. And they got to play them at home. And they got killed. You know?

And so you do wonder if, especially as the 15th hits, this starts to, you know, you've made it through it. It's a third of the season now. And you're around 500. and if you want to go ahead and build whatever you're going to have so that you've got the requisite amount of time because you're still only going to have, what, less than 50 games? Yeah. In whatever.

And if you are implementing a really good major contributor to your team, it does take time. It's not going to be just completely seamless and look beautiful immediately, especially with limited, practice time, especially with guys that are out for COVID or injury, and especially when you have less than, no, no training camp, you got less, and you got less than 50 games to play together, you know, I, I'd imagine that, you know, we've talked about it all too much, but I'd imagine,

I'd be shocked if we got out of December if Ben Simmons wasn't moved somewhere. I really would. The, a 10-minute version of all too much. What's that? I've, I've listened to it. you into it yeah it's pretty good i like her yeah she's good man you like taylor swim i've been on uh i'll tell you what the taylor's versions albums they they they they are they are putting me on the swifty track like i like i i am discovering kevin oh swift universe not yet chris not don't don't use that nickname yet i don't i don't deserve it yet that would be insulting to the true swifties i know a lot of swifties in my life you do i do and i'm not a swifty i'm not a swifty i'm not a

Not there yet, but I'm on, I'm on track there, which is why I caught you saying all too well there. But with Utah, Philadelphia. Yes. With Philadelphia, I mean, we've been through it in terms of like the timing of their move. I think they should wait. You think they should go ahead of time, which I understand, considering they're 14 and 12. They're near the middle of the pack in the Eastern Conference. And a guy would help a lot, especially carrying the load for Joelle and Bede.

That can't be overlooked here. You don't want to have too much on Abed's plate on his knees for, you know, December, January, February, when you need him for April, May, you hope June. But I'll say this, too, Chris with last night's loss for the Sixers. That team on the other side there, the Utah Jazz, they're cracking. They're cracking, man. Seriously, everybody knows that they are a top regular season team.

It's about what can they do in the playoffs. I like a little bit of the newness we're seeing with Utah this year. You got White Side backing up, Gobert, providing size in those lineups when you need it. but Rudy Gay as well. They've played him at the five a little bit as a small ball five. They use him next to Gobert a lot of the time as well. They're switching more screens, less just drop coverage. Like when they put Gay into a pick and roll with Gobert, they'll switch that.

They do that with Bogdanovich sometimes too. So Utah is mixing some stuff up on defense to help them come playoff time. And then you get White Side who could be a DNP for an entire playoff series or playing 15, 20 minutes every night in big matchups against teams with another big, like the Sixers having drumming off the bench, but the Jazz are mixing some stuff up.

This isn't the same team. And I think last night's winning against the Sixers was another example of one of the shapes that they can take. You asked me at the beginning of the season, what would it take for you to believe in them as a championship contender or a playoff performer? And I said,

their ability to go small, to not. get slaughtered with Gobert off the court. And that hasn't it's still not there. Like Whiteside doesn't fix that. Like I need, I need, he's the second big guy for

for like the drummond off the bench, like the Philadelphia. I still think, and I know you mentioned Rudy, I still think they need they need to be able to, when somebody wants to go five wide against you. And you think about some of these teams that can

size down, right? Because when you're playing the elite of the elite, you're going to be going up against, you know, a really fast guy in Aiton, right? That's a little bit of a different deal. But Traymond Green, right? I mean, that's the best team right now in the Western Conference. And so the team that is going to stretch you out and the team that in last years it was the clippers, right?

And they sized down all the way around. And it was a real problem, you know? And so can they size down? Can somebody not have that be a massive advantage? How well can they play when Gobert is not on the court? If somebody puts them in the predicament where he's either got to dominate offensively or it's going to be a liability, how can you play small and pull that and pull that off?

And that's going to be the trick, right? Yeah, I mean, it's going to be tough. There's still going to be a great regular season team, right? It's a playoff problem. I am encouraged, though, Chris. I mean, I think the Rudy Gay's stuff, he's only played, I think, 11, 12 games right now after last night. The way they're utilizing him, at least shows a vision for what they want to be. And whether they're in a position where they only go in with the guys that they have today in early December,

or whether they're a team that makes a move and finds someone even better for their role that you're describing, the vision is there for the shapes that they want to take in the postseason with gobert on the court and without gobert on the court. And I'm at least encouraged with the way in which they're experimenting this regular season because I think it bodes well for them. And you talk about a lot being on a guy's plate. You mentioned that when you're talking about MBEat. Poor Yokic.

I mean, get that guy some freaking help, man. Well, I'll tell you this. I ran into somebody last night that, let's just say, would know. And they told me February for Jamal. Okay. That's what they told. That seems fair.

That's roughly nine months since the injury. They told me. That's what they said. That's what they told me. And this is somebody that would know. They told me February for Jamal. And so that would mean help on the way within, you know, in the next eight weeks or so, hopefully. I mean, he needs it bad, man.

I mean, hey, look, raw numbers. Off the charge, advanced numbers, just downright, freaky. He's improved as a defender. And it's like, geez. I mean, Mike Malone said earlier, Michael Malone said earlier this year, we die without it. Like, we can't even play, like, minutes without him on the court. Like, we've got to figure out a way to do that.

And you know what? The spurs have gotten pretty respectable, pretty fast. It was a really good win for them last night. But if you've noticed, like, you keep looking at it. at these scores nightly. And they're going to be right in that mix with the play in again. You know, they've already gotten right there. There are a couple games back, I think.

And they started off. It was just such a slog for them. And then you see these stories oddly coming out about Ben Simmons would like to be a spur and Coach Popovich would be happy to coach Ben Simmons. And I'm like, well, hold on now. where did this all come from? And it made me, it jogged my memory to when you

during all the first whole round of Simmons stuff during the summer and you had this note about how teams are saying Philly is asking for outrageous return for these guys. But I remember the Spurs were one of those teams you talked about at that time. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I believe at the time, I reported they wanted, you know, like the full slate, the maximum amount of first round picks that they could get from San Antonio 6 first, you know, including pick swaps, plus a young player and a veteran to match salaries. I don't believe I said any names at the time, but like, you know, it's fairly obvious. So you put pieces together.

Young player that fits the right salary, Derek White, Dejante Murray type veteran. I'd want Keldon. You'd want Keldon Johnson in the deal? Yes. I don't blame you there. I think Juan Kelden Johnson instead of a pick would make a lot of sense. Like the wing defense. Kelton Johnson's awesome.

He didn't play in last night's game, but I love Kelton Johnson. But that's the one I'd, that's the one I'd know. Would you rather have, let's say from San Antonio's perspective, would you rather keep Derek White or Jejante Murray? Who would you rather keep? Not necessarily in a Ben Simmons trade, just in general, between those two guards. Who would you rather keep?

I think Murray, because of the defense. I think that's fair. Right. Yeah, Derek White, 27 years old, Dejante Murray 25, two-year age difference. And Murray, like, the way he's come along offensively, the only piece he's really missing, Chris, is the three-pointer. When I need a guy like that, in the playoffs,

I'd like for my point of attack defender to be somebody that could really stay in front of somebody. And he had made a first-team all defense or a second-team all defense a few years ago, right? White can play defense, too. He's very good defensively, not Murray levels. Not like Murray. Not Murray level, but White is very good. And DeJante Murray, though, like he, this year with DeVarro's now gone, all the playmaking

chances he's getting, pick and rolls up, isolation's up. And he's flourishing as a playmaker, man. I don't need Murray with Maxie, though. I don't need. I mean, I'm just speaking in general, you know, about San Antonio. But I'm intrigued. I mean, I like the idea of Ben Simmons for them. I liked it back in July or August, whenever it was that I first reported that on this

podcast with you. but I would love to see what Greg Popovich can do with Ben Simmons. And that's Spurs system. That would be exciting, Chris. That would be really exciting. I can't imagine that there's a top 30 on there, though. If we're going back to the whole, and that may just be a fool's errand, Darrell might really regret saying that.

I bet he does. The four years thing? No, no, no. The 30 players. I bet he regrets saying that, you know. Maybe. Because, you know, you could look up and do, I guess I'd want Kelden Johnson, maybe Vasil. Did he actually say that or was that a report?

There's 30. There's 30. There's 30. There's 30. I mean, come on. I don't think he did say that. You think somebody made it up? No, no, I'm saying like.

They got it straight from them. Come on. I'm just saying. He didn't publicly say it. Oh, you mean he didn't say it. on the radio. Well, because he said it. He's like, this could last four years.

Yeah. People think I'm joking. Well, people, like, for it's worth, it was Sam with the Athletic. A source with knowledge of the list said there are approximately 30 players who would satisfy the Sixers in a Simmons swap.

Yeah. And there's a fair amount of belief, let's say, five to ten could become available in the next year or two. So, well, you know what? sources say, it could be Darrell. It might be Darrell.

I don't know. Ben Simmons. like that might be the perfect landing spot. San Antonio. So little media attention. Oh, yeah. Like, so little media attention. Not on national TV all the time.

Not a hot topic every single morning. Right? And you could just go there, do your thing. Nobody cares if you even talk to the media. Those guys, you know, back in the day, and this is when they were winning titles. You know, they would do the whole, like, media availability. these like after like say shoot around or something right and they would say uh because i knew one of the

PR guys back at the day and i was like uh so what would it be like he's like well there'd be like a couple tv stations or there would be like a writer that would show up and they would say all right who do you guys want after practice or whatever and they'd say tony parker and tim duncan they say okay you get matt bonner and davis burtans you know they just like and they can just do whatever they want to do and they could shield him. I mean, bro, we didn't know what Kauai Lederd's voice sounded like until he played for the Clippers. So, I mean, it's perfect. You can just go and live there in, you know, in peace and play basketball.

And nobody's going to bother you except when you go on the road. And then you have to, you know, do media availability after the game in the visiting locker rooms. But other than that, you can just live your peaceful. life. We'll see. And develop. We'll see. The one last note I'll have on this about San Antonio for Ben Simmons,

three years left on his contract after this cease. Only three. You got to feel some level of confidence that in a couple of years, Ben Simmons isn't going to say, I want to out. I want to go to a big market because he's a big market personality, a big market guy. So I think anybody. But he said in that meeting with Doc that he felt,

because he brought, the reporting was he brought up Janus a lot. and he said, like, I never got the chance to just develop and make mistakes and grow into whatever player I'm going to become. Like, we were good immediately. The spotlight was so bright on me immediately. The pressure was so on me immediately that I'd just like to go and be able to exist and develop at a rate without every single thing I do, people being on my ass every day. The one thing I'll say, though, about that, though, too, Chris, just because you're in San Antonio doesn't mean there's no pressure.

There's pressure from your coaches. There's pressure from your teammates. There's pressure from the organization. And there's definitely pressure from fans. But you're not a topic every morning. You're not on first take every morning. You're not like on all these shows. You're not on national stuff.

But there's still pressure. And I think the most important thing is the pressure you put on yourself. And I mean, I like some people, will deal with the external factors and pressures differently than others. But for Ben Simmons here, I think it'd be nice to see a team built around him, but also the Sixers have like a heck of a lot of shooting last season.

After what Darrell Morey did, there's even more shooting this year. Like the conditions are pretty good for Ben Simmons at Philadelphia. They're pretty good there. I know, but I think a small market would serve him well. And you know this from growing up in Boston. Oh, yeah. Every day.

It can be relentless. You know what I mean? EEEI and 95 the Sports Hub. When 95 the Sports Hub started up, like, there's always WEEEI growing up from me. Yeah. Then the 985 to Sports Hub was like the rival sports talk radio station. As soon as those two started going against each other, all of like the stuff you hear about Boston Sports Talk was like types 10, like all of it in terms of the pressures

and the conversations that all got blown up even more. So the last 10, 15 years, it's been. Speaking of blowing up, the Indiana Pacers. Now, my buddy Tim McMahon from ESPN's got a huge article that's going to drop today, he told me about, and I think a lot of people will be talking about this, about the end of the Rick Carlisle era in Dallas. And I talked to him the other day, and he was telling me that, you know, the guys really like Jason Kidd, despite their, you know, lack of success thus far as a team. but they really do like him and that, you know, he's gotten for Zingis in a better frame of mind and more in the fold.

And I will tell you, I saw them in person the other night. Those guys interacted a lot more. It got to the point last year where Dallas fans were like watching and counting for high fives or any slight interaction between the two. And Tim told me that the only thing they really added comment at the time was that they both hated Rick Carlisle. Yeah, nobody like Carlisle in that locker room. Yeah, nobody. And nobody liked it, and it had run its course. So he's got that article coming out about them.

Now, he goes to Indiana. Now, Tim knows him very well. And he tells me, I promise you, Rick Arlough did not sign up there to do another rebuild. No, exactly. He did not want that. So this is going to be, it's going to be interesting because you got the Miles Turner quotes in the athletic earlier in the week. You know, they've always viewed me as a role player. They play me as a role player, I think, and I want to be more.

you know, so there's, you know, that, there's, uh, writing's out the wall on the Miles Turner thing. He's reporting out that Subonis could also be, you know, be, have a different home, you know, at some point. And that Subonis has a level of discontent. He just straight wants out. Yeah. And so. He does. Jeez.

What a, what a mess, huh? And that's his buddy, too. Like, that's his long-term friend, Carlisle, I mean. Pritchard. Like, they've been, they've been friends for, what, 30 years. So what an awkward situation, right? You go over there, take over what you think is a decently ready-made team, like a pretty good team that you could make better,

that, you know, if you got T.J. Warren back and you added some stuff, maybe your, you know, second round team and then, you know, you go from there. But this thing has gone the wrong way fast, and now all the players want out, then it's like, all right, is Rick Carlis going to hang around there for another rebuild? They just went through it with Dallas. The question on my mind, Chris, is this. Let's say Indiana is serious about exploring all these trades with Turner,

Sabonis, Lavert. Are they going for a rebuild? Are they trying to bottom out? Are they trying to be high in the draft lottery rankings? Or are they trying to, like, maintain we're going to compete and be a quality playoff opponent? Is it a shuffling of the deck or is this a total rebuild? That's the one thing.

and I'm unsure about here in this situation with the Pacers is what they're looking for as a return. I haven't been able to put my finger on that. And it might just be that they're open to all of it. What path do you think that they should go, like philosophically, Chris? Is it full on rebuild? They've never been bad. So I'd imagine that they... Is it a good time to be bad?

Maybe, but not now. There's no amount you can bottom out. You know what I'm saying? And you would have to just clean out everything. You move in Brogden, you're moving everything. you're moving everything. And you can't trade Brogman right now either. You can't.

When you also will lose, you'll also lose your coach. And you can decide if that matters or not, right? But I think you just, I think you just try to get the maximum amount of return. Unless you don't lose your coach because Pritchard and Carlisle are so close. And he's like, yeah, I can do a rebuild for a year or two.

Like, Carlisle himself, I feel like, we're not winning with these guys. Kev? Like to Kevin Pritchard, you know? Well,

he may feel that way. And they're a hard one to jump, on because they, you know, you could say they even did it again with this, uh, uh, the kid from Oregon. What's his name, Chris, uh, Duarte. Duarte, right? They did it again. They, they, they, I mean, you can say they need high traffic, but they have, they have been masters of the, you know, pick going back to Paul George at the, at the back end of the lottery.

You know, you're talking about like that 10 to 20 range. They're kind of good. They've been good. Always have picks in there. And, I mean, they've nailed it. many times. And so I don't know. I don't think they're a team that probably feels like they necessarily have to bottom

out because in many cases, they've gotten better players than their peers that have had much higher picks than them. Like routinely, they're good at drafting. They're good. And they're good at player development or have been. These next two years are not times, not bad times to be bad though.

You know, like you know the guys and the names in those drafts. Yeah, I do. And there's no guarantee. I mean, I'm just saying that the path is not unreasonable for Indiana. If, like, for the first time in many years, they want to be horrific. It's not a horrible time to be pretty bad. Yeah, and I would just say, I wouldn't get in, my opinion is,

I would not get in the mode of being horrific because you're not going to be as horrific as a couple of these teams anyway. So if you're going to be bad, you're going to be in the lottery anyway. And your odds are not that much different. You can't. You're right. You can't pull the plug now and be like, all right, we're going to be total shit. You're not catching Detroit. You're not catching OKC.

Houston. I know they've got this long win streak, but I mean, in the end. Well, you could catch them, Chris. You're like only four games back from New Orleans right now. But you would have to get rid of all your guys. You can't do that to Brogden. You can't do that to, you know, you would have to just dump them all.

I know. I'm just throwing the all in, blow it up. Let's bottom out for the next two years. They have never been, they have never been a team. was willing to do that. When is the last time? They never have been. All I'm saying is like, should they be willing to do that?

Maybe that's one thing that they should do here for short term. They've proven that they've proven, to your point, that they don't need high picks in order to get good players. They are the type of team that can like, well, they've proven they'll say, we'll sign Doug Burtdurma to this money. We'll sign these guys this money owner to be a 500 plus team. They've proven they can do that. What they need is the star.

They need the home run. They got it in Paul George in the middle of the first round. Will they get it again? And Duarte is 24 years old already. How much better will he get? We'll see. We'll see over the course of time. But right now, to your point, Chris, they have 32% odds for a top four pick.

New Orleans and the third worst record has 52%. Oklahoma City and Houston at 45%. So like the odds don't increase that much. We brought this up. But they can increase. We brought this up. And it was. driving me crazy because I could not do it off the top of my head.

I remembered Miles Turner going 11, Paul George going 10, okay, but you go all the way back. The last time, so they've had a couple guys that were, you know, 11 to 10. The last time the Indiana Pacers selected a player within the top 10 because they've had two tens, they had Eric Dampier at one point, 1996, and they had Paul George. The last time they had a top 10 pick that they exercised, 1989 George McLeod. I remember that draft before I was born. The last time they have drafted, because I was trying to think,

when have they ever, when have they ever had a player that was like a high draft pick? Rick Smith's was the next, or the year before. They had the number two pick in the 88 draft and they took Rick Smith. That's insane. Yeah. The ninth pick in 1989, and that is the highest pick they have had since or except for 88, which was Rick Smith. And they've always, when you think of Pacers, they've always been good. They've always been good.

They're good. Good. And they've had some really good teams. You know, some of those George teams were really good. Jeez, Louise. That's crazy. Just pull up their basketball reference page. It's like you can see, you know, playoffs, you know, semis, Eastern Conference finals in the 2010s. You can see it in the 2000s. You can see it in the 90s with those Reggie Miller teams.

Like they've always been in the playoffs. They've always been a competitive team, which is why, like I said, is this the time? to be bad for a couple of years. Maybe it pays to be bad for a little while. And then go back and build, you know, what you usually do with good players around what you hope is a star. That's what you hope for. You hope for, oh, we lucked out and got Benkerro or Holmgren

or Wenban Yamah in 2023. I mean, I'm just saying, like, it's not a bad time for Indiana to do that. Let me throw something out there, too. About the Pacers? Yeah. I think a reasonable philosophy, given what has taken place with them over the course of the last two years, would be not hiring a coach that all your players hate. Yeah, that would probably be a good idea.

That's a that's a Pritchard mistake, though. But this is, they hated their coach last year. Yeah. So, I mean, what are we doing here? And you're hiring a coach away from the team who was hated by us. players there. I mean, I know he's Rick Carlisle. He's Rick Carlisle, but I don't know.

Time change. We are a third of the way into the season. And you've already got the reports that like Sabonis and him, you know, crackheads and he wants out of there. He's like cut his post touches in half. He's like, stand behind the corner even though you're not good at this. Well, I was listening to Zach Lowe the other day. and he was talking to McMahon about,

I thought it was fascinating, you know, Porzingis post-ups and the points per possession. I had done on my article last week about Porzingus. He's having the best season of his career as a post player, Chris. He went from inefficient in Dallas. Hilarious. He went from inefficient in New York, inefficient in Dallas, to being pretty spectacular statistically on the post this year.

And when I was in Dallas a couple years ago, I talked to KP, I asked him, what did you work on during your year off? You know, after your injury with New York, you get traded from Dallas. And I asked him about, like, Marcus Smart. Marker Smart always, like, did a great job defending KP. And he's like, I worked on my moves against smaller players so I can use my size to my advantage. Didn't work that season.

He was no better. Last season, he was slightly better, but didn't get opportunities in Carlisle's offense. This season, you can see the work he's put in. Like you can tell that he's doing a better job of using fakes and shimmies and just simple, like simple stuff. Like I'm seven foot three. I don't need to take a face-up jumper. I can back my way in and do a little hook shot from four feet out. A KP is doing all of that and it's working.

It's weird, though. It is one of those situations where it is beneficial to them, but very well may not be beneficial to team offense. He individually is having success doing this. and yet their offense is nowhere near as dynamic as it was. And there's several reasons. A lot of reasons. Yeah, a lot. Right.

But the way they function, you know, that is one of the criticisms of kid that is totally reasonable, which is they've had a historically good offense. That's not what needed to change here, you know. I think with KP, the benefits of this might not pop up until the playoffs. But they need to iron it out, though, because there's certain times where Luke is running a high pick and roll from a couple feet behind three point line. And Chris Stavis is posting up while that's happening. That clogs spacing.

There's a disconnect for when he should be posting. But KP, he's having the best season ever of his career posting up. And that's at least encouraging for Dallas to have another layer in their offense where they can throw the ball in and maybe get a bucket from him come playoff time. If he's healthy. One last thing I want to say before I get out of here. So on my way downtown, as I was driving, to the studio to do the podcast this morning with you.

I listened to the mismatch feed from Wednesday. Oh, yeah. The debut of The Void show. A, I thought it was outstanding. B, the guests, the guys you had on there were great. Aren't they great? Mike and Sam, aren't they great? Yes.

I learned a tremendous amount about the Suns. You know, sometimes you really got to hear people. that know what they're talking about about these certain teams. And you could tell it's that it's those guys that you had on. It's their life. So they know everything that's going on with that team and the minor differences, et cetera, et cetera. But one of the things I learned that I was stunned because I covered so many of these teams and games was the pace at which they're playing, which is, I believe you said, fourth in the league at the time of recording.

I don't know if it's still there. But fourth in the league, which is insanely fast, especially in regards to Chris Paul teams in the past. But what was shocking was that one of the guys gave the stat that Chris Paul had only been on one team, which was the 13 clippers, that was ever in the top 10 in pace. Isn't that something? That was a great stat. Because the reason it's stunning is because if people think about those. clipper teams. They had a name.

In Lob City Clippers. They played fast. It felt like. It felt like they did. The Lob City Clippers were only in the top third of the league once. That's crazy to me. Yeah. It's crazy to think about that.

And, you know, the whole teach a new dog or teach an old dog new tricks and kind of the adaptation of Paul. and what he has become and the way they're playing. And I thought it was really wise to talk about them. Kind of they do have guys that are best equipped while Paul is most comfortable playing slow. They can be really devastating when you get, you know, Devin Booker, McKell Bridges, and Aiton all out in space.

Those are young guys with young legs who are devastating in open space. and yeah no I thought it was really good it was really good thanks Chris I mean my can Mike and Sam is smart I thought their calves talk was really good too yeah like they were great on the calves talking about future the big band but yeah it was fun

recording with those guys I've done a couple they have their sons pod the timeline that I've been on a couple times over the years back when they were the bright future sons of course the sons people love you but but I always felt with my concern that we had good chemistry So I was like they'd make for good first guests, you know, feeling comfortable with them. Yeah, I'd encourage everybody, you know, it was the first time that we had another pod on the feed.

And so that's going to be coming out on Wednesdays. Which is a little funky. It's a little, it's a little unusual. It's just been people probably don't expect it. Yeah, I know. Go check it out. If you missed it, there was another episode this week on the feed. And so go check it out because I was listed on my way in.

And I thought those guys were really good, really good. Yeah, they were really good. I look forward to the guests next week, too. Are you going to tease it? Do we know yet? It'll be Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball on YouTube, probably one of the smartest people cover in the game. I'm excited to talk to Ben.

Should be a really fun weekend. And then trade season. I know that it's always trade deadline when we get to later in the year. I think we're going to see some early trades this year. I really do. I think we're going to see some early trades. And that's going to start after that. that 15th of December deadline.

I hope we do, Chris. I mean, because in some ways, we're hearing some names this past week. Hopefully, hopefully, like this, what could be a mild trade season, hopefully it gets crazy. It's always fun when it does. And yeah, I'm excited.

I'm excited for December 15th. Thank you to our producer, Jesse Lopez. As always, Kevin, I will talk to you next week. Looking forward to it. Have a good weekend, everybody.