The Mismatch - Zach Lowe on the Teams He’s Most Surprised by This Season, All-Star Voting, Joel Embiid, and More

Episode Date: February 12, 2021

ESPN’s Zach Lowe stops by to talk with Verno and KOC about how he got into sports journalism (0:45), the teams he’s most surprised by this season (20:00), the state of his All-Star ballot (31:45), Joel Embiid’s monster season (51:00), and quite a lot more. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Guest: Zach Lowe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, this is Kevin O'Connor on today's episode of The Mismatch. Chris Vernon and I had a very, very special guest. We brought on Zach Lowe from ESPN to talk about a whole bunch of topics, including So in Life and how we got into sports media. And then, of course, we had talked basketball too about the Utah Jazz being the best team in the NBA right now. And a bunch of other topics, too, like Joanne Lombie, his chance to be MVP, Zach Levine, and whether he should be an All-Star and a whole bunch more. All that's coming up next.

Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Varnan. And joining me as he does every Friday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Kineous, Kevin O'clock. We got a guest. We have a very special guest. He is the host of the critically acclaimed low post podcast. You also see him on ESPN. You will see him on SportsCenter later today.

He is the great Zach Lowe. Thanks for coming on, Zach. My pleasure, guys. How are you all doing? Great. Doing great. So before we get to anything, we are going to make you intensely uncomfortable, and that is talking about yourself. Oh, God.

Yep, here we go. Get it over with, then. We get a lot of questions, as I'm sure you do also, about how do I get into this? And so many times our advice can ring hollow, because the world has changed so greatly over the last, you know, 10 to 20 years. you have an odd path yourself into becoming Zach Lowe. So if we can't, we'll just start at college, okay? College.

You realize I'm old, so that means you're starting 25 years ago almost. Understood. College, Zach Lowe is going to do what? Sports journalism. That's what college Zach Lowe is going to do. And college me did not realize what journalism was. I just thought, like, if you were smart, they just put you on the sports reporters and you like got to pontificate about sports.

Like I sort of thought journalism was. I had no idea until I dipped my toe into it that journalism was like talking to strangers, having really uncomfortable conversations with people who don't want to talk to you, getting doors slammed in your face, getting hung up on sometimes. And I was like, I was a really shy college kid. And I just was like, okay, this isn't, turns out this isn't for me. I was totally wrong about what this whole is. industry is. And then I just basically forgot about it. And I became a high school teacher. And I

then went to get my PhD with an idea that I'd either become a professor or go back to teaching high school, just smarter. And meanwhile, just get to hang out on a college campus as a growing man for a few years. And then I got the itch to try again when I was in my mid-20s. Yeah, but from like, so this is what I always wanted to do. And I chickened out because I just wasn't socially ready for it when I got to college. And like, I never had an internship. I never did everything that you're not, I did everything wrong. And then I did other stuff for a while. So why did you, why in the mid-20s did you say, did you not like teaching? Were you not fulfilled with what you were doing at the time? Like, what made you want to try it then? I can tell you exactly the moment when I was like, I need to

give this another shot. I was at the University of Maryland. And I actually think it was the week or weekend that they were in the final four with like Juan Dixon and Lonnie Baxter and that team. And I had to go to the University of Maryland because they had a special archive of documents from the 19th century that I needed to read and go through for my thesis. And so the archive was like in this closet basically with a desk and a chair and no windows. And it was just like boxes of documents that had been refurbished from the 19th century. you could barely read them, like handwritten diaries. And for two days, I just sat in there going through them. And like, this is what the work of being a historian is. You just go through these documents

and one out of every 500 will actually be useful. But you have to go through all 500 in a windowless closet. And I just had this moment where I was like, this sucks. This just isn't for me. Like, I'm bored. I haven't seen another human being in a long time. And I just thought of like, well, I've been a grad student for two years. What books do I like to read the most? I like to read the most about recent history. Well, why is that? Because the participants are alive,

and the authors go get to interview them about their recollections. And I thought, well, that's kind of like journalism. And, you know, maybe that is a way that I could use all these skills, but write about something I actually care about and write things that people will actually read. And so basically right then and there, I was like, I'm trying this. I'm trying. And I ended up covering because of that.

There was a little newspaper, three-day-a-week newspaper. I have no idea if it even exists anymore in Williamsburg, Virginia. And I basically begged them, like, let me cover high school anything for free. Let me cover high school football, high school, track, whatever you want. And I covered some high school football games. I was like, okay, I kind of like this. Career transitions for a lot of people are a scary thing. And that's one of the emails I get a lot of somebody who might be just out of school like

you were, you know, at the time, or in grad school. And they're like, I'm not sure I actually want to be doing this. when you made that shift, Zach, was that something that you decided on your own in that moment? Or were you having conversation with close friends, close family, to kind of advise you on how to make a big jump like that? No, I was, I'm still kind of not good at having difficult life conversations with other people. And so I just sort of was like, I'm doing it. And I took out student loans and I went to grad school for journalism, which is what it is. And I told, I basically told my parents.

And I was waiting for them to be like, it's a terrible idea. You're 25, 26. You have no clue what you're doing at all. And they were basically like, go ahead, give it a shot if you want. Like I was going to move to New York. I hated New York. I hated big cities. I thought you would like step out of your door and get shot.

Like it was a whole big adventure I was going to have. And they were okay with it. But no, I just sort of decided I'm going to try this. And if I fail or I'll just wander the world. a couple years and then I'll try to go back to teaching or something. I don't know. So where I first found out about you was the point forward when you were working for SI, right? Rest in peace.

Now you were, it was Celtics blog or it was a Celticshub.com. Celtics hub. The true hoop network. Okay. So Celtics Hub is where you start getting like real exposure. Like people now are reading you in a way that they have not before. Shout out to Henry Abbott and Kevin Arnivitz who, who, who, noticed me blogging for a WordPress site on my own and like read the links that I just begged them to read and we're like, this guy might not be terrible. So then at that point, SI is reading that?

Like they're seeing the True Hoop links and that's how they find you? So how they found me, I was working at a magazine called American Lawyer, covering law firms and legal news and litigation. Holy mackerel, American lawyer. One of my best sources was a legal recruiter, basically a headhunter. And they know all the gossip. So they were good people to get to know. And we were having a drink one day.

And we were talking about this side hustle that I was developing at nights. And he said, hey, I happen to know a buddy of mine is like an editor at Sports Illustrated. And I'm pretty sure he does NBA stuff. Would you want to meet him? And I was like, yeah, of course. And that guy was like Brad Weinstein, who now works for the NBA. was like we're thinking about starting a blog. This was like 2010, maybe 2009, like a blog for Sports Illustrated.

This was a radical innovation for SI. Would you be interested in maybe throwing your hat in the ring for that? And I said, yeah, sure, I got nothing to lose. And they ended up hiring me. And now I'd do this for a job. Is that when it became full-time? S-I. Yeah, it became full-time SI.

And I tell people all the time, it became full-time before the 2010-11 season, And the year the Mavericks won the championship is the first year I did this full-time. And I got hired that summer. Not a coincidence. Lots of people my age got hired after July 2010 because the decision when LeBron went to Miami was such an earthquake of news that every outlet covering the NBA basically concluded, we do not have enough people covering this league. We need more people. This was the level of coverage and mania over that, I think, caught a lot of publications by surprise. one thing I've also always wondered is, and I don't know if you've ever broached this,

been asked about this. You then move on and you're with Bill at Grantland, right? And this Grantland thing is like a wave, right? There's so many guys that have come out of that, right? As when Grantland ceases to exist, are you nervous then? Are you, what am I going to do? Am I, like, did you already know you had established yourself? and so you would be okay no matter what?

So I was pretty confident, and the confidence was part earned and part ignorance. Like I had just no conception of how anything at ESPN worked. We were this little island that, I mean, I was like an island on an island, because Grantland was an island in Los Angeles, and I was in New York. So I was just privy to nothing.

I had no idea how the relationship between Bill and ESPN worked. I had no idea how the relationship between our NBA coverage and their NBA coverage worked. I had no idea if there was any tension. I had no idea who the people were. I was completely clueless. So I had no idea if there was going to be any sort of like, oh, those guys are outsiders.

Should we even want them? And I was confident that if they keep anything, it's going to be the core sports people. So me, Barnwell, the baseball people. Like, I was pretty confident that I felt worried for the entertainment people because they're my friends and I just thought It just doesn't seem like a thing that's going to live at ESPN. But I was, for someone who's insecure and neurotic, I was strangely like calm.

I'll be okay. Calm. And I think even my wife was surprised like, you're not freaking out. I was like, I guess not. It feels like uneasy, but I'm a little bit calm. Wow. I will tell you that the last guy that asked me about, he was a kid from Massachusetts. And he said, he said, so what should I do?

And I said, look, I don't have a. lot of great advice. I say, I would call up the blogs. I say because Kevin O'Connor started at a Celtics writing about the Celtics and Zach Lowe started writing for a blog about the Celtics. Well, no, I think that's the right. So I had a friend of a friend of a friend whose son is asking this question. And they said, could he call you? I said, sure, you can call me. He's a big Wizards fan. He said, what can I do? I have no experience. I have no anything. I think I can write. I think I know the game decently. And I said, go to bullets forever. driver.com. Read every single thing they do on the Wizards and write stuff that's not there.

Find anything that's not there. Find one statistical nugget. Find one quirk about the team. Find something that no one on that site has read before. Write it. Beg them to publish it. I mean, it sucks because you have to have the resources to be able to either have a side, like this has to be your side hustle, and it's going to be really hard, and it's not fair. and there's a whole lot of socioeconomic issues involved in your ability to have a side hustle that pays you nothing. It's just, it sucks and it's not cool. But I basically just tell people, if you write something that hardcore fans of a team, it doesn't matter how nerdy you think it is, how just it's like about is Smith or something. If it's good and interesting and people haven't read it before and you do that two or three times in a row, bullets forever is going to be like, all right, this dude's bringing something to the table.

And then like it just snowballs from there. But the key is like, give, it's really hard, but give them something they don't know. And you get somewhere from there. It's exactly what you did, right, Kiv? Yeah, I mean, it's a type of thing where it's multiple factors. It's like you talked about you, know somebody who knows somebody. And like sometimes it's about bumping into somebody at a conference or knowing somebody, these random strings of events where you, you know, kind of just keep moving up.

But it's also finding your own lane and carving that out and doing something that you aren't seeing others doing. And I think that example that you gave to him is perfect. It's the truth. Like, he should go to that site and read everything he can because that's sort of what I tried to do when I started at Celtics blog. You know, back in 2013, I remember I was doing my internship at Comcast Sportscent, New England. And I didn't know what I was going to do afterwards. I was so naive. And I thought, oh, you know, this internship that doesn't pay me anything, maybe they'll hire interns afterwards. They don't. And my friend Andy, who used to work there, said, well, you should apply to write for Celtics blog. And I was like, Celtics blog. I was very much unlike you, Zach. I didn't go to college

thinking about being in sports journalism. And I thought like Celtics blog was a bunch of, you know, paid full-time writers. I read that since I was like 14, 15 years old, which is so silly in hindsight. But yeah, I just, I emailed Jeff Clark and sent into my application SB Nation. And I feel like that's, you know, for no matter your age, if you're a high school kid or a college kid, those SBNation blog sites. Those are big time. We're like, I, Nikias Duncan, who does great stuff at Basketball News.com. He used to start writing on Facebook.

Facebook NBA groups years back. And now he's doing stuff for websites. And, you know, it's all about carving out, you know, an area in this league where someone's not doing something already. Let's get to this NBA season, Zach. I heard you talking about this couple of weeks ago.

Oh, well, if you want to talk more about your personal life, can. There are many more questions, Zach. I heard you talk about this a couple of weeks ago on your pod and you were saying that you had not yet been to an arena. You had not been to, is that still

saying true? Still true. Still true. And now we got fans coming back to lots of arenas in New York. It's, it's like, that makes me almost less want to go to a game less. And an all-star game somehow too. Well, and as someone I have been going to a bunch of games because

I have to, but like, you can't, you can't talk to anybody. You can't even get near. How about this? I can't, I can't even go in the lower bowl. Yeah. No, from what I've been told, you get, you get ushered in at the, whatever, you have a specific entrance. And it's upstairs.

And there's going to be team, yeah, the team people are going to, someone's going to usher you to your seat and you just sit in your media section and there's a bathroom for you and all this, but like, you're not going anywhere else. Even getting to your seats, there's a pathway for you, right? Yep. So if we can, just, you know, this is your life. if you could speak to the challenges of doing your job well this season, right, and how hard it has been in order to attain information and to glean what you would

normally glean about the way the NBA is being played. So it doesn't feel that hard, but there's an element of like you don't know what you're missing because you're missing it. So, like, I have, I can watch all the games, obviously. You know, I don't go to games to watch them. Right. I mean, I do. you see different things at the arena than you would, you know, on TV or whatever.

But I can watch the games. And I know enough people, I can text people on every team. I can call people on every team and blah, blah. So you feel like I feel like I'm getting the information flow I need. But that's because I've already forgotten how much you get just by getting to the game three hours early and schmoozing. Simmons used to always make fun of what a schmoozer I am. I just go and schmooze. I hang out and talk to people.

And not really even how much information you. get, but some of that, but like you get to know new people, right? Like my network is not expanding as fast as it would otherwise. You get to know new people. You just get, and your bonds are, I don't feel as if my relationships with people that I have relationships with already are withering, but I also feel like they're not deepening because there's just nothing that you can, there's nothing that replaces the in-person chit-chat, the beer after a game, the dinner, the lunch, there's nothing that replicates that, no matter how great technology. Like, even Zoom, it's not the same.

So it's, it feels fine and I can do this. And I don't feel like I'm missing anything, but there's definitely something I'm missing. I'm right there with you, Zach, no doubt about that. I think, you know, whether it's job related or life related, I have a deep desire, just to deepen those relationships. And you can't do that through Zoom and texts and phone as well as you can in person. And like you said, those three hours before the game, when the arena is empty and fans are starting to trickle in. That's the best time just to meet somebody new, right? And yeah, I missed that.

I missed that. I missed that. I missed that. Everybody's just sitting around. The guys are warm it up. And people will just talk, right? They talk like you're not in a, you know, standard media setting. Well, and that's what I've told people since I got hired at Granlin. The luckiest thing about that job, and I'm lucky that it's carried over is I didn't have to be person number 45 in the Steph Curry scrum, you know, or the Steve Kerr scrum before the game. I mean, that's useful. And if I need to ask a question, I'll go there. But instead, I can hang out and talk to the assistant coaches who are, you know, sitting there waiting to warm up players. I can talk to the agents who are sitting there just hanging out. And like that,

that is not every job is, there are a lot of jobs that are dependent on having your phone in Steve Kerr's face. And mine wasn't. And that was really, really lucky. And I think smart of Bill to realize we're going to empower people to do this job in a different way, even if the payoff is longer to come than it is in the instant payoff of like, hey, Steve Kerr just said this, blah, blah, blah. Kevin talks about this to me, and I'm wondering how you feel about it. There are, we know that like, there's, there's woes, there's shams. People have alerts on their phones for these guys, like, to see what is going on to the NBA. In terms of breaking news, do you feel pressure to break news?

Or do you look at it and say, you know, that's not my thing. Like, I don't have to do that, right? Like, the news is going to get out. And because there's become these, like, two preeminent guys that cover our sport that, you know, it's like a race between them. And then the rest of everybody else kind of gets this, gets that, gets this, gets that here and there. I don't feel pressure, but it is nice to do every once in a while to remind the powers that be like, oh, he's also bringing this to this to the.

the table. And we collaborate a lot at ESPN. So we feed each other stuff. You know, Windhorst called me last night on a story saying, hey, can you check on this? Like, we help each other a lot, even though, even if our names don't end up attached to something. But, you know, and Kevin has done a really good job of this throughout his career. Like, there's news that happens. And then there's news that might happen or behind the scenes chatter. And if you can nail that down and it's credible, that's news too. Right? And so, like, you can get some of that that is more my domain than some of the other people's domain. So there's the, it's always nice to do. But yeah, it's not the driving force of my job. And, and I don't feel an enormous amount of pressure to do more of it. The team that has surprised you the most in a good way, the team that has surprised you the most in a bad way. I will let you pull up the standings. Yeah, you know what you can tell immediately what I was going for.

I'll start positive because I like to be a positive person. In a good way, the team that has surprised me the most, honestly, like, I think it might be Utah as obvious as an answer to that. Like, I thought Utah was going to be really good. They were in my inner circle of contenders last season, so I was a year early. But to be 20 and 5 with a plus 9 point differential, I didn't quite see that level, coming from them. So that's one. And I'm trying to look at the, look at the sort of mid-tier teams and see if there's any, I mean, the spurs being 14 and 11 is mildly surprising. I think they're punching above their weight a little bit. I guess the Knicks even. I mean, the Knicks being decent would be one of them. And negatively, I mean, it's hard to be too negative on these teams that have just been ravaged by the virus and the health and safety protocols. And in Minnesota's case, not having their best player for that reason. others for most of the year. I guess I would say Toronto at 12 and 14 is kind of eh.

And Denver's been a little too up and down for my taste at 13 and 11. But it's hard to, the teams that are really toward the bottom, there's only a few of them and the mitigating circumstances are so obviously. Even Orlando, Orlando has half a team at this point, you know, for them to be 9 and 17 is not. Oh, my God. What was that? Kevin, you're on that text. Ricillo sent last night where he, Ryan Rissillo was happening to be watching that game when

it started the Orlando game. And he took a picture of the screen. And it said, tonight's starters, Frank Mason the third, Dwayne Bacon, James Ennis, Gary Clark, Nicola Vucevich. And I texted, I said, is that real? And then Frank Mason got hurt immediately. There's no point cards left. I mean, what the hell? That is not like that Vuccovich is literally the only guy that would be in that lineup under like normal circumstances. It's possible all those guys are out of your rotation other than Vuccovich if your team is healthy.

Like not even they're coming off the bench. They're just not playing at all. And so you feel for Orlando because it's just a wasted season for them. And not wasted because they'll get some internal. Like Cole Anthony got a chance to play before you got her. But it's like. Zach, they're going to give Mbomba internal development. I read your 10 things the story.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. Hey, listen. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm going to read this right now. Oh, I've been waiting for this so much. All right, here we go. Number three in Zach Lowe's article today on his 10 things, which are actually 11 today. 11 today.

I was in a good mood. There will be no Kim Birch slander here. No. I have heard clamoring for Mo Bomba to take Birch's minutes, even insinuating. that Birch's mere presence on the court is evidence of organizational dysfunction, and I am here to say, I will accept no Kemperch slander. Now, this is so specific that there is only one man that you could have possibly heard such slander from. Now, I'm going to be fair. I knew this was coming.

I told him, I told him, Kevin. I would give him $25 if he put Kevin O. Hader. First of all, it was 20. It was 20. Don't inflate your offer. It was 20. And I don't come that cheap. 20 bucks.

If he put Kevin O. Hayter in the I love Kim, Burt. So I think I think I would be perfectly willing to do that because I'm, A, I'm just too nice to just go right at Kevin. But B, it's so obviously jokey that I'm not at not really going at Kevin at all. But I don't think I could get Kevin O'Hater. We don't have the same sense of humor at ESPN as people do at the ringer. I don't think I could get Kevin O. Hater past the copy editors and the editorial set.

It should have been Kevin O. Well, maybe Kevin O. Chem Hater. Maybe you could have gotten that one in, right? Oh, my gosh. Look, I just won't accept the Kim Birch Slanner. Okay? I won't accept it. Now, you can be curious about Moamba. I'm curious about Moabamba.

I'd like to see him play. But I will not accept any slander about Ken Birch, a great Canadian, okay, and who just plays hard. All he wants to do is set screens, get teammates open, play hard on defense. And Kevin O'Hater goes on there on the ringer, basically saying, I don't want to see Ken Burch anymore. Get him out. He stinks.

Not only does he not want to see him. Nobody wants to see him. I want to see Kim Burge. Ken Burns is family. Kemperch is a family. I would go a step further. A whole nation wants to see Ken Birch.

He, Canada's got enough guys. I thought you rode for like Croatia. Now you ride for Canada. I want to see Kim Birch, but not as like the fifth or six best player, Steve Clifford's own words on the Orlando Magic ahead of a player

they drafted with the number six pick. That's why I like with the magic. Ken Birch, I love Ken Birch. We saw two guys. No, he doesn't. No, he doesn't. You don't love Ken Birch. I don't love Ken Birch in Orlando.

I want Ken Birch somewhere else where he can play and compete and contribute to winning. We saw two guys in that game last night with the Warriors and Magic. Juan Tuscano Anderson on the Warriors. I love Juan Tiscano Anderson. Are you going to slander him now? Definitely not. In Ken Birch, guys who hustle, who sacrifice, who do the little things to contribute towards their team. I actually had a debate about, I actually, somewhat I know on the Warriors, when they sent,

I just call them JTA. I don't know if anybody calls them that, but I call him JTA. When they sent JTA to the G League at the start of the season, I texted someone who works for the Warriors. Jokingly, I was like, I am going to hammer you guys

if we don't see Wants of Scott and Anderson with the real team this year. I'm going to hammer you just relax because I have a soft spot for him too, so be careful. Now, Zach, you know, once upon a time, I had a side hustle where I was hawking T-shirts.

So I've got my bona fides in the T-shirt game. how there is not there was you remember the the press conference a couple of weeks ago where draymond just demolished uh poor rodney bagruder right there was a line in that and i i would i would encourage any warriors fan that is out there make these t-shirts i will buy it if you make them okay where draymond said i'm rocking with wanty and if there is not a i'm rocking with wanty t-shirt They have failed. They have failed. You saw, did you see Steph's Twitter last night?

What did he say? Bleacher Report, Steph made one of his ridiculous threes, and Wantoscono Anderson did the thing where he's signaling it's good while the shots in midair, which is a cool NBA moment. And Bleacher Report tweets, even Steph's teammate knew that shot was going in. And Wantoscona Anderson tweeted above Bleacher, but retweeted Bleacher Report, a quote tweeted that, whatever the right term is. Yeah. And said, hi, I'm just. step team set's teammate my name's one one my name is one and then

step re tweeted him I was like you tell him want he's a good player he is and he's one of those guys that contributes to winning with his effort and his brain and just a little this they've a cutting off when he's off ball he knows how to play in that warrior system and that was their struggle early on for steve cur

to your point about you would have blasted them if they didn't give him minutes with the big leagues They had a hard time with some of their plays adjusting with all that motion for JTA. Not even a little bit of a problem. I love that, dude. He's so fun. It's good to play off of this. All right.

So we got this odd Ken Birch argument. No one has ever written for Ken Birch like Zach Lowe just did. And then in the course of that, you mentioned Wanti, right? Who do you have anybody else that's like, you know, under the radar? people don't ever talk about, but you just have a fascination with outside of Birch, Tuscano. Are there other guys like that in the league that you feel like the Zacklow love is greater than the general love that said player gets?

I mean, there are a lot of guys, right, but some of them become obvious. So I've been a Rishon Holmes guy for a long time. And now the cat's out of the back, right? Like everyone knows Rishon Holmes is good and his push shot is like one of the signature shots. Oh, boy. Look, look. Zach, you're touching a nerve here. Because in our first year, years ago, he brought up Rishon Holmes.

I said, who the hell are you talking about? And then all these Sixers fans just murdered me. You cover the NBA. I said, they won 10 frigging games. Like, I didn't see a guy play at the end of the, I don't know who this guy is, right? I don't know who Roshan. And so then every single. thing that Rishon Holmes has done over the course of his five-year, whatever, six-year career

I hear about. Still to this day, Rishon Holmes is a thing. So thanks for bringing that up again. I have others. I'm trying to think of them because I don't want to do obvious ones. I mean, there are definitely guys that I just have a random soft spot for for almost no reason at all. But I'm kind of coming up with a blank under pressure here.

So I was a guy that I'm tracking now. just for fun. I don't even know if I was soft spot for him, for him, is Terrence Mann. Because I was going to write a 10 things piece on how Terrence Man has the worst job in the entire NBA, but now he's playing because they have had injuries. So for a while,

Terrence Man's only job was come in for the last defensive possession of a quarter and play like six seconds of defense and then never play again. And then there was a game that I think it was against the Kings where he did that and they got a turnover and he had the ball in position where

All he could do was take a half-court heave. And because he's not a star, he actually took the half-court heave before the buzzer instead of doing the bogus thing where people wait for the buzzer to sound. So I'm like, all Terrence Mann's job is is to come play defense for eight seconds and go 0 for one from the floor. So the worst job in the NBA. But that way he's been playing since then. So I'm developing a Terrence man soft spot. I have no idea if he's good.

But your Grizzlies are filled with like little dudes like the Desmond Baines of Xavier tillmans of the world, you know? The entire Grizzlies roster, Brandon Clark, too. Yeah, unfortunately, all those guys you named have had to start this year. Desmond Bayne is always doing helpful stuff on the floor. A little turnover prone, but he's a helpful player. I think Desmond

Bain will figure out the turnovers over time too. In college, he was really a smart decision-maker spectacular passer, really. And it wasn't bad until he got to start, and it was just the speed. You know, these guys have to get used to how much faster.

and especially the difference even between going up against starters and going up against bench guys, because it's just a different deal. And in fact, that's good to parlay that into the conversation you had with Arniewicz on your latest episode, Zach, where you guys had that kind of conversation in regards to Tobias Harris, right, about Tobias Harris. And it's been a nice role with him being able to, you know,

in the absence of playing with, Simmons and Embed because they want to keep those guys together. Tobias, many cases, can get to go against the backups and just murder everybody, right? And that is, and so one of the things you guys talked about was the value of that. I was kind of surprised that you couldn't, I think there will be a thing if Philly, who has had a very good season and is number one in the East only gets one all-star. But I thought you guys did make a somewhat persuasive argument that that may very well be the case.

It's just you only get 12 spots and they're both Tobias and Ben are both in contention. And Ben Simmons in the last two weeks, there was a Celtics game, maybe two and a half week ago where he was invisible for three quarters. And then in the fourth quarter went crazy and had like 12 points and two steals. And since that game, he's been playing more aggressively at another good game last night in Portland that they lost. So I think I might actually pick him over Tobias Harris, just because if you ask me point blank, who's better? I think Ben Simmons is better.

But Tobias is having great season. But, you know, the East, it's just tough, man. There are a lot of candidates. And like Tobias Harris' stats are good, but they're not like blow away good. I mean, the reason that team is, whatever their record is is because Joel Embed might be the MVP. I mean, he's been ridiculous. Zach, in your 10 years, you know, started in 2010, you said covering the league, do you feel like, you know, for all star, and obviously you said on the pod with Kevin that you're not stressed out about this.

We know as voters, we're only to do the starters. And that's it. We don't have to do the reserves. That's coaches. But, you know, when it comes to looking ahead to all NBA, there's 15 spots. I mean, I feel like this year's the league is so loaded right now with some top end talent. And, you know, there's going to be guys who miss out on those spots that are very deserving. And maybe in past years, they might have made it. But the league just feels so loaded right now with deserving all-stars and deserving all-N-A candidates. It's really hard. I've thought about giving up my ballot because I just don't like, because we,

the L-NBA brings the awkward thing of, like, salaries are somewhat dependent on people getting picked to all-NBA teams, which just puts us in a position that isn't, isn't super comfortable. Yeah, I mean, you know, and you always run into the thing where the angry fans are like, well, how could you not have this guy? And how could you not have that guy? I'm like, I can't, who are you taking off? Like, I just, it's like, it, and you get down to the last couple of

spots. And it's all these guys are awesome. How am I really supposed to definitively say that this guy was better than that guy? And this is going to be an even weirder season because guys are going to miss time for reasons that we've never had people miss time for and teams are going to be decimated. Like, what do you even make of the Houston Rockets? They've been like five different teams in 20 games. I have no idea what they are. How do I evaluate Christian Wood or Victor Oladipo or, you know, guys like that? It's hard. Yeah. Well, I think we were both surprised that when you were listing off your locks, Kyrie really went out without a discussion.

You know what I mean? And he, I know, but I mean, it's just been, bro, can you create more, like,

just news for one guy than he has created? I know his numbers are crazy, right? But that team has not been off the charts and he just didn't show up for, like, it's different.

Like, some of these guys are injured, or they've been out for coronavirus, or whatever, he just didn't play for X number of games. I think seven games, I think. Yeah, and it's a little strange. Do we know, do we know the reason really yet? I mean, I'm assuming that there was a good reason for it,

but I don't feel like it's been articulated. But he's, I mean, you look at his number seven, like 2080 game on 53, 41, it's ridiculous. And his clutch shooting has been really good. I mean, it's just, it's hard to mount an argument that he shouldn't be in the All-Star game as a lock. I think I'm having a hard time with that second guard spot. I mean, for the West,

it's easy. I have Steph, Lillard, LeBron, Yokich, Kauai is my starters in the East and the front court. No, Luca. I have Luca coming on. I mean, I'll have him as the sixth, you know, but obviously it won't get the vote. And then the East have Embed,

Katie Yannis is the three front court starters. And then as guard, I have Jalen Brown, two-way player, he's been excellent. It's that second spot where, you know, Bradley Beal, Zach Levine,

Carrie Irving, Trey Young, James Hardin, there's a lot of guys. A Middleton, Ford that's worth can't be a guard. He's listed as a forward

so you can't use him. And same with Tatum. But, you know, with Bradley Beale, I believe you had him locked in as a starter and he'll likely be my choice.

But I'm trying to play devil's advocate with myself here. And one of the guys you didn't talk about a whole lot with Kevin was Zach Levine. This season average in 28, 5, and 5 with a 65%

true shooting percentage. He's just been outrageous. just on the offensive end. And Levine, he's been somebody I've ripped a lot on this pod with you, Chris over the years for his horrific defense at times, for his, you know, underwhelming playmaking. And I look at him in the way he's developed as a player, it's like, well, at least he's given some effort on defense.

You mentioned on the pot he talks about wanting to be a good defender. I feel like I'm seeing effort from him more than four, even though it's not reflected in the advanced numbers. And his playmaking has definitely gotten better. And I look at Levine a lot like Beal last year. year when Beal got barely any votes. He's seventh in total votes this year because he's in the news all the time and everybody's talking about him.

And obviously he's been fantastic, 33 points per game. He's, he's an amazing player. But I feel like Levine is sort of being a bit overlooked here with the season he's having this development. I guess I'm wondering, like, what is the differentiator when I, you know, this year for you with Beal and Levine and also like, what have you seen from Levine with his development? I mean, Beal is just a better, a better player. and, you know, when you're averaging 33 a game or whatever, you just kind of have to be,

you have to be in the All-Star game. And he's a better ball handler. He's a better passer, I think. With Levine, I mean, his shooting numbers are crazy. He's averaging 28 a game. And he's always a threat like we saw the other night. Who were they playing the Pelicans? He had 25 in the first quarter, I think.

I mean, he's going to have it. He's going to win you a game here and there with just one quarter of ridiculous shooting. I think he's a borderline all-star, to be honest with you. have 10 guys in front of him. Kyrie, Beal, Embed, Durant, Janice, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Chris Middleton, Trey Young, and Bam, out of bio. I mean, if you ask me, just point blank,

who do you trust in a Game 7-0 playoff series? Bam out of Bio or Zach Levine. Maybe it's because I've seen it. Maybe it's just that simple. I trust Bam. I know what I'm getting out of Bam. And Zach is really, really good. I do think his defense is super damaging.

And I don't think it's because he doesn't try. I just think he's, he just, there's something about the way he processes the game on that end of the floor that doesn't really translate. And the Bulls are always better when he's on the bench every single year. The Bulls are better when he's on the bench every single year. I think that stat is not always useful and very noisy. And I might put him in the All-Star game this year. But, and I, we made the comparison on the pot yesterday.

I can hear the Chicago fans. Well, why Trey Young and not exactly being. They're both offense-only players. The difference is Trey Young average is 10 assists a game. and is just a way, way better playmaker than Zach Hruvino has a one-to-one assist to turnover ratio basically every year. But he's really good. I mean, these are hard choices.

I think with Chicago, they probably internally will have the same type of discussions just in regards to how they build up this roster. Because they have this, you know, big mix of, you know, some younger, talented players that don't necessarily fit together white and Levine in the back court. You've had white, I believe, in your 10 things today. I'm not sure that's going to be something that they can build with long term. All these guys in the front court, marking it. you drafted Patrick Williams, Wendell Carter.

I have a lot of the young talent. So with Levine, do you feel like he's somebody that could fit in a winning, contending context? Like, what is the best situation for Zach Levine to be maximized to be a winning player? Do you think the defensive issues that he has just will always hold him back in that regard? I think he needs to be surrounded by good defensive players. I just think because it's interesting to think about Portland, right? Because you mentioned White and Levine.

Well, Portland's been able to get by, not always on defense, but get by as a franchise with Dame and CJ. And I think the difference is like a lot of, they're not great defensive players, but they're usually in the right place. And I think that's where Levine's errors can be so crippling because he's often just not in the right place or he's back cut. Like the whole system breaks down. And I don't think Dame and CJ make mistakes like that.

So I do think he needs to be surrounded by guys who can cover with it. It's tempting to think up to imagine what he looks like in Denver, playing off of Yokic as a second or third option and just back cutting for dunks and hitting open threes and not having the responsibility to create for others so much. But then you're like, well, Denver doesn't really have the defensive infrastructure to incorporate him and really be okay on that end. Then you start thinking about, imagine if he played in Miami somehow, if you can get him into Miami with Bam and Butler and he's doing all those same things on offense, but he has those guys covering. just the situation like, this is just off the top of my head. Like a supercharged version of a Tyler hero, like what he offered.

Yeah. And I think the other thing that you, you guys did touch on, the thing that, you know, people get onto Levine about defensively, I think rightfully so is that we look at, say,

like CJ and Dame, we look at some of these other little guy, Trey Young for that matter. And we go, all right, like they're not. They're not, you know,

killer defensive players. They might even be poor defensive players. But there's a limit to how good they could be defensively anyway. There is no limit to how good Zach Levine could be defensively, right? There really isn't. He has all, you could see him in that body be the best defender in the NBA. You could never see a guy in Trey Young's body be even in the elite level defense. I mean, it's just not happening in this day and age.

But so that's the, that's a thing, right? You get because of you, you would be capable if it's always hurt you worse. Yeah, the curse of expectations, I guess. And you're right. Levine has all the, he's, he's, he's got some size. He's got incredible athleticism. You know, it just, it just hasn't worked. But you're right.

There are tools there for him to work with. And the thing is, I think he cares. Like, I don't think he's one of these guys who's like, I don't care about defense. I'm not going to try on defense. I think he actually cares and tries. and means well. It just has never worked. The inverse team is sort of the Utah Jazz. You mentioned them in passing earlier, Zach.

They're a team where everybody on that roster knows where to be. It's all between the years there. They have the effort level, the desire. That's what is really the bedrock of their success. It's just how connected that entire team is on both ends of the floor. Sometimes I got watched them out of the line in my, you know, the void video this week about them. Like, it feels like they're telepathic, like the way in which they rotate on defense,

the way in which they swing the ball around the court. That team is just full of those high IQ players. It's like I would love Levine in that Miami situation. Like you said, but I can't see him in a Utah. Let's talk about that Utah team, Zach. Why do you think they have, you know, they threw it together last year and you know I love Conley. And it just never took.

They were very good in the bubble, but then they were without Boganovich by that point, right? This year, why do you think it has all worked in a way that it didn't take last year? continuity has to have something to do with it. They had so many guys in and out of the lineup last year. And Conley, Conley had a, you know, this first team he's been on other than Memphis had clearly kind of an adjustment period. This year, everyone has more or less been there. And they have, I think they found a rotation pretty quickly that worked for them.

There was no confusion about who's going to start. Is Ingalls going to start this? Do they have their rotation? Everyone knows their roles. Conley and Gobert generally go in and out together. Ingalls and favors come in. come in and out together. Like Jordan Clarkson knows his role and plays it well.

It's just everyone is sort of comfortable with what their job is and how they play. And that's, as Kevin said, you know, veteran guys who are really smart players, second year together. Everyone kind of knows what they're supposed to do. And everyone's, you know, and their young guy, like Donovan Mitchell's still young. He's going to keep getting better. Gobert is right in his prime. He's been outstanding this year. And Conley, before this recent injury, was basically Memphis era.

Mike Conley. with even more three-point shooting. So if you get Mike Conley, who's an all-star versus Mike Conley, who's just man, that makes a big difference. Arnovich really rode for Conley. He loves me. He did. Well, you know I do too, but one of the discussions you guys had, and you even mentioned it about doing a pod with him. And the whole sentimental thing, and you know, I love this guy.

And I've known him for over a decade. And one of the things that you guys said in the pod is, I just want to confirm to you, bro, it does matter to him. a lot. To make all-stars specifically. Yes, it is not a, I'll be okay. You know, if I don't, you know, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. It matters. It matters to him to be an NBA all-star and to get that credit one day.

Because Randolph made it and Gassau made it. And, you know, nobody else was ever expected to make it, right? Like nobody else, like Tachan Prince wasn't making it. And then Tony Allen wasn't going to make it. But like Conley was not. the one of those guys that he didn't, he, you know, Mark got, and Mark got a defensive player at the year and Zibo got an all NBA. And like, so he played that whole time and just, you know, he's not on national TV and he never got the credit. And, you know, it's now later down the road.

And I, he, it matters, man. Like, it would mean more to him than it would anybody else. I really believe that. Well, it's been tough being a guard in the West for the last 15, well, forever, basically. But there were many, there were at least a couple of times and at least once, maybe twice in my All-Star Picks column where I basically wrote, why don't we just make Mike Conley an honorary Eastern Conference All-Star? Because he would make the East roster pretty clearly and he's not making the West roster. Like, what's really the harm? It's the freaking All-Star game. Just put him in the All-Star game. In the East, in the East, Mike Connolly is probably a three-to-four-time All-Star by now.

I'll give you a good example. When they were both very young, the Grizzlies made a choice between him and Kyle Lowry. There you go. Kyle's what? Seven? Six, seven? A lot. Six or seven?

Six or seven All-Star teams. And it really matters. I mean, this is not to disparage Chris Bosch at all because Chris Bosch is amazing. Chris Bosch, I think, is like an 11-time All-Star or something. It's some crazy number where you're like, if he's in the West with all the power forwards there, he's probably a six-time All-Star. and like a Hall of Famer either way. But when you hear 11-time All-Star, you start, you're like, whoa, that's like, that's

like Dwayne Wade territory up there, you know what I mean? It's just not Chris Weber. I think Chris Weber is maybe like a three-time all-star. Manujinobli is a two-time all-star. Like in the West, it's just, it's a different, it's a different ballgame. And now the East it is too. I mean, it's like we talked about earlier. The league is loaded with talent.

And with Conley, I mean, I'm not so sure he's going to get one of the. those spots from coaches. We'll see what happens. But it's so cool to see him have that level of chemistry he has right now with Gobert. After last year when, you know, we talked about this bunch, Chris, he said he never has thrown a lob to somebody like Rudy Gobert. It was an adjustment for him, live in a new city, playing a new system, playing with a guy like, O'Bair, but now the way those guys click, it feels like they've been playing together for quite some time now. And the fact, like you said, Zach, they play nearly all their minutes together, like 85, 90 percent of their time on the court together spent on the court at the same time. I'm blown away and that's been

the big differentiator. When I look at this team compared to last year's team, it is a number of things. You get Jordan Clarkson, you know, another year in the system, he's been dynamic for them. But Mike Conley being Mike Conley again, that is the number one factor, the number one difference between this year's squad and last year's. And that's what could make a big difference for them in the postseason as well, having that other ball handling presence, a creator to help out Mitchell, help all Clarkson. This jazz team's a threat, man. I still am not all the way there with them as a true finals contender over some of the,

you know, Lakers, clippers of the world, clippers of the world, but they're close. How weird are the Lakers this season? Just like, what three straight overtime games against Detroit and then Oklahoma City twice. And AD, I missed two of those games, I think. So it's like, what am I to make of them? They're cruising, I think. I saw, I saw him in person twice here, Memphis. And it got to the fourth quarter.

and I mean, they just decide to turn it on and you just got to pray you catch them, right? You got to pray you catch them when, and they just miss some shots and they don't, you know, lock down defensively in the same way. They try, I swear to God, I watch these games and I feel like

they try for five minutes and win the game. Like I thought that Oklahoma City game, the one that was over time, they tried for five minutes in that game. Like really like focused, you're not scoring, and we're going to have good possessions. Which is interesting because the downside is like LeBron is playing a ton of minutes.

I know. In these overtime game, he's playing every game. And this is going to be the bedrock of his MVP candidacy, I think, is they're the best team or one of the best teams? The plus minus numbers are what they are. His numbers are crazy good. And he's playing every game and playing a ton of minutes.

But by the advanced numbers, he's not the MVP. And it's like, it's clearly yoke at your MB. like top the charts in almost every advanced statistic. But LeBron is LeBron. And like he's, we all kind of know like he's the best player. He's the best player.

And their team is really good. That is the difference though between like, you know, the Curry unbelievable years or like the, even Janus last year when they won, you know, 60 something games. It's like they don't have to play four quarters.

Like he does. He does. And he's in year what, 18? When I see, when I see his. minutes when I check a box score of a Lakers game, I haven't watched in the minutes start with a four for LeBron.

I like a little part of me winces like, ooh, I know that they're probably not like 35 of those are not super high intensity minutes, but there's still, there's still minutes. Like it's a lot of minutes. Well, let's talk about Embed. Are you a full buyer in This is Joel Embed, Doc Rivers has unlocked something that had previously been unlocked? I don't know if it's Doc. Part of it's probably Doc.

Part of it is I know not making all NBA last year really pissed him off and lit a fire under him. But I have said, I think I've said it on my podcast multiple times. I've definitely said it to other GMs around the league in debates. I really have believed that a fully healthy and engaged OL&B can be the best player in the NBA. Now, obviously, we all know who the best player in the NBA is and he'll probably be the best player maybe until he retires. And that's LeBron. but I've been an M.B. Now, the question was just, will we ever see a fully healthy, engaged, in shape Joel

M. Bede? And, but I've been a believer because he's so dominant defensively. He's so dominant that all he has to do is, like, be good offensively. And he's like a top five player. And this year, I mean, his off, he's making these face up 18 footers like he's dirk or something. I mean, it's crazy how good he's been. So I've been a Joel M. Bid believer.

I do think he, his ceiling is best player in the NBA. I don't know if he's been the best player this year, but I do think he can be at some point in his career. But Kev, he's been way more consistent, right? Yeah, Zach, you mentioned the, the jumper off the dribble. That's what's been consistent, Chris. It's like, that's the differentiator and I think what he unlocked this past year. He's always been someone who's more, you know, back to the basket when it comes to post-ups,

but ability to face up and take those pull-up, mid-range jumpers, He had the three against the Celtics a couple of weeks back. That is the differentiator between those, you know, good players and great players or great players and amazing players. And with Embed, I really think it's, he's just unlocked that in himself. And you could say it's a small sample, you know, maybe his numbers fall off to levels they were last season. I believe he shot 33% on dribble jump was last year. It's like 48, 50% now. But he's gotten better every year of his career in subtle ways and sometimes a notable way.

And with this, I just look at this as another piece of evidence that this is somebody who, when he invest time into something into a skill, he will get better at it. We saw it at Kansas over the course of that freshman season. We've seen it every year in the NBA. So I think there's no reason to doubt that this progress is for real and that this is the new Joe Al-Bee. It's really just a matter of, like you said, Zach, the conditioning aspect and staying in shape throughout the full duration of the season deep into the playoffs. That'll be the challenge. but skills-wise, this is the real Joel. Well, and it's huge for their crunch time offense, right?

Because I had Joel on my podcast before last season, and he talked about working on his face-up game specifically to solve the dilemma that's built into their team of who is getting the ball in the last two minutes of a close game because it can't really be Ben Simmons unless it's in transition. And by the way, in Crunchtime against Portland last night, they got out and ran and got some good looks out of it. And Joel told me, well, that's why I have to be.

to have a face-up game because back to the basket, they're going to swarm me. It's really hard to read help defense. And last night against Portland, they came out of a timeout, I think, with like 90 seconds left. And they ran a play that was for Seth Curry because they have to run stuff for Seth Curry and Tobias Harris and half-core possessions in crunch time. And he took a screen from Joel, went to his right and kicked it back to Joel at like 20 feet away from the rim. And Joel took that possession and then owned it from there like pump fake, two dribbles, jumper and like, boy, if he can do that in crunch time, that's a game changer for them. If they can work through him and not have it be a back to the basket post up that the other

team can see coming a mile away, it's a game changer. How one that game he had against Miami weeks back too, just dribble jumper after dribble jumper. That kind of showed exactly what he talked to you about. It's just nasty. Last question, Zach. All right. This has been the craziest year. And the finances of the league are something that has been a subject like they

have not been before. And I'm wondering if you think those and the situation that the league is in will impact the trade deadline this year. Do you think this ends up becoming more active, less active than a typical trade deadline and teams altering their teams for the stretch run? Or do you think that this just kind of goes on like any other year would? I don't know if the finances will impact it much. What you're talking about. about. I would guess less active, but not really because of some reluctance to take on long-term money, although that always exists to some degree. Maybe it exists more now. But, you know, A, we've already had the biggest trade. It happened. And B, the play in tournament, there are so many

teams that are going to talk themselves into, you know, particularly teams who have not been in the playoffs in years and years. Like, I don't, you know, we might see a couple of teams like Minnesota's too far out. Oklahoma City, if they tailspin, they'll give up. If they tailspin, they'll give up. But, you know, the Knicks, the Hawks, the Hornets, the Kings, the Gris, the Pelicans, teams that have had droughts that they're just going to, if we're 12th, but we're two games out, we're of 10th, we're going to, I don't think we're selling off our guys. Some team will pivot because it's a smart thing to do and they can get good value and they just won't care about being 10th. But I don't, I don't see a big frothy trade market. There'll be some stuff because there always is, but I don't see just because of, I don't know how many sellers there are going to be.

And no huge names? The huge name already moved. The huge name already moved. Obviously, the attention is going to be on Brad Beale. But the noise coming out of there, Kevin's written about it. Mark Bartle seen his agent went on the record a couple of days ago with Yahoo, I think, saying, you know, right now it's sort of status quo. Like, you know, he wants to win in Washington. And that could always change.

even Mark in those comments were like, none of this is absolute, you know, but I could see that one extending into the offseason and next season rather than now. Zach, it is our real honor for you to join us today. And I also need to say this. I think I probably mentioned this somewhere in passing as years go on, but I only know Bill Simmons because of my buddy, Zach Lowe. So I've heard they were in town. the 2013, I guess West Finals.

He was doing ABC. And through my friend Zach Lowe, I met Bill Simmons. And thus, as time moved on, the connection was made. And I end up, you know, doing this stuff with the ringer. It is in some way, you never know. You never know. What you really owe it all to is Marcusol and Mike Conley and Zach Randolph, because none of us are in Memphis if those teams, those guys don't make the conference finals.

And get swept, but still, They made the conference. They got swept, but they were there, right? And the whole world was in Memphis at least for a minute, right? I miss Memphis, man. I haven't been there in a while. I missed the ducks and the peabody. I missed the whole thing.

The Weston Memphis, man. I've spent a lot of time in that Westin downtown Memphis right by the arena. That's right. And you mentioned John Morant in your column today. I love John Morant. I am a John Morant true believer. Just because, like, I think actually, I think he's got more distance to cover on defense than people think. I think he's a pretty bad defensive player as most young guards are.

And his three-point shot is, if they ever make the playoffs, teams are going to treat him, I mean, not quite like Ben Simmons, but they're going to dare him. We saw it in the bubble. I think he's got more progress to make in two big areas than people think. But I just love the way he plays because he has such a combination of athleticism and just guts that he could play like, if he wanted to, he could play kind of like what we would call bad Russ, just like every shot, every drive, everything belongs to me. I'm playing in hyper drive all the time. And he doesn't play like that. He plays like that sometimes, but then he'll slow down, he'll manipulate the defense. He actively seeks out looks for his teammates. He gets off the ball. He's a good off ball player.

He's a good cutter. Like, he just never, a lot of guys would would just blow up the way he did. and he blew up because he's that damn good and then get caught up with this is my team. Memphis is my team. There's going to be a whose team is it thing between me and Jaron Jackson Jr.

And there is just zero of that with John. And he'll have a lot of eyeballs on him tonight because they play against the Lakers. And I will tell you that they played the other night and in the game against Charlotte after the game, he was that guy that went. And they won by,

16. He was on the court for like 30 minutes to an hour after the game shooting threes. Like he's that guy. He's that guy. He's going to do. But I believe that they have someone special in him. And I think Jaron Jackson Jr. is really good too. Like we haven't seen him at all. He's always kind of like out of sight out of mind. But you throw him on that team and the trickle down effect of what it does to their rotation. But I'm a jog. I'm a big job guy. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. Absolutely, Chris. Thank you so much, Zach.

My pleasure, guys. I'm a listener. You guys are a regular Peloton accompaniment for me. I didn't know you're a Peloton guy. We actually have a, it's not a Peloton. It's like a step down from a Peloton. It's a smart bike, but it's like one step down from a Peloton because I'm cheap.

Bootleg Peloton. Bootleg Peloton. But you guys will be, I'm trying not to get, It's a challenge of the pandemic. Don't get fat. Like, there are lots of, there are lots of days where I just don't leave my house. Like, I got to do something. I have to move my feet. It's the worst.

And then you got to see your face on TV. And I can't run. I hate running. I have to give it up on running. It hurts. I'm like, it hurts my joints. It hurts my knees. It's cold outside.

It's cold. It's like, I'm just not going to do it. I just like, I'm out of running. I'm out. So that is the most revealing thing. And it happens at the very end. Zach Lowe has a bootleg. Peloton. We like Peloton. That's right. All right, guys, it's always a pleasure. I'll see you

soon, hopefully. Thanks, Zach. Thanks to Kevin O'Connor, as always. Thanks to producer, Sasha, and we will talk to you next week.