The Moth - Money Manners: Sara Rosa Espi Jacobson & Michelle Murphy

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

On this week's episode, we're talking about money, honey. Mulla, cash, bills, dough - whatever you call it, it affects all of our lives in immeasurable ways. This episode is hosted by special guest, Jen Lue, the assistant controller here at The Moth.  Hosted by: Jen Lue Storytellers: Sara Rosa Espi Jacobson, Michelle Murphy

Attention Houston! You have listened to our podcast and our radio hour, but did you know the Moth has live storytelling events at Wearhouse Live? The Moth has opened Mike's storytelling competitions called Story Slams that are open to anyone with a five-minute story to share on the night's theme. Upcoming themes include love hurts, stakes, clean, and pride. GoodLamoth.org forward slash Houston to experience a live show near you. That's theMoth.org forward slash Houston. Welcome to the Moth Podcast. I'm your host for this week, Jen Liu, and I'm the Assistant Controller at The Moth. I'm recording this episode during tax season in the U.S., which

can be a time of confusion and anxiety for millions of Americans. Part of my job as an accountant at the Moth is to help my team feel more comfortable with money. Want to know how many tickets we sold at a story slam? I have a report for that. Want a donation count from the annual Moth Ball? I have a report for that. Having a report for that makes the whole thing sound easy, but translating millions of tiny details into one digestible story is a lot harder than it looks.

On the podcast today, we have two stories about everyday people struggling to make sense of the impact that money has on their relationships and their inner growth. First up, Sarah Rosa at Spie Jacobson. Sarah told this story at a Sydney Story slam, where the theme of the night was, you guessed it, money. Here's Sarah live at the mall. So when people used to tell me that cultural or language differences can put strain on a new relationship, I thought it was ridiculous. I just fallen in love with a Dutch girl and I thought,

you say, art apple, I say potato, who cares? And then one day, quite soon in the relationship, we're in that state of finding out everything about each other. We were sitting on a bench sort of covered in pigeon poo, looking at some traffic. And I remember vividly. And she said to me, could you please give me that 10 euros that for the concert ticket I bought for you?

Now that concert was a concert she had invited me to, a concert that she was playing the harp at, actually. And a concert I would never otherwise chosen to see. And I said, excuse me. And I suddenly thought, this isn't going to work. This is really not going to work. The language thing is OK. But the fact is, we don't speak the same

money language. And then we tell you a bit about my money language coming from a large South African Jewish family. In my family, paying the bill is a kind of tactical sport. Even more important than what you eat. And anything is permissible. Sub to view, fuge, a favourite chick, as my father says, I'm just going to go to the toilet, like you pays the bill. Or emotional blackmail, that's all fine. My great aunt used to say, you think I can't pay for a couple of cups of coffee? And even physical wrestling has been known to happen. You've got to pay that bill. And here I was with this new girl, it wasn't stamp up 10 euros for a concert ticket. So

in my family it got to the bill paying, got to the highest extreme, I think the worst incident was when we went to a restaurant called Rintage India in Cape Town. And we'd always driven past it and was always empty with these bright pink curtains. And my mother said one day that we should go there. So we went with my aunt and my mother and all the families and my aunt and my mother are the fiercest bull pain competitors.

No one has known to beat them. And we're just going to have a few little curries. But it turned out that the food was very bad, very, very expensive. Think of kind of deep fried, deviled eggs. It turns out vintage India isn't a good cuisine. And the waitress who served us was an absolute magician at upselling, something I've never been able to do. So a few carries turned into this lavish, inedible banquet.

This plate of the plate of the plate came out. And at the end, my mother was adamant, she'd pay the bull. She'd taken us there. She was wrecked with guilt. And my aunt, so they went through all the strategies, the wrestling, the emotional blackmail, everything. And then, eventually, my aunt said, fuck wrestling, the emotional blackmail, everything. And then, eventually, my aunt said, fuck off, fuck off, I'm paying!

Because my aunt has a trump card, and that is unbeatable histrionics. No one can go near her. So this is the language I know about money. This is what I had had for 28 years by that stage. Money means generosity. It means love. It means showing people you care about them. You might not actually have a lot of money,

but going out for dinner is living life well. And imagine my shock when I got to the Netherlands where I was doing my masters. I had a friend of mine. I gave doing my masters at a friend of mine, I gave a friend, a mindful glass of wine, and she came back and she said, oh, it was a bit more expensive. Could you give me another euro?

I was really, really taken aback. And then it got to that very crucial part with my girlfriend, because I thought that she not care about me, she am myzily person, and we sat there on that bench covered with pigeon poo with a traffic going past, and she was completely miserable and perplexed, she really didn't see what the problem was. She had paid for the ticket, and I was asking for the money.

And eventually, after lots and lots of back and forth, I realized that we weren't so different, in fact. I was partly so pissed off because I'd been keeping my own tally and I decided it was her turn, she should have paid for the ticket because I'd paid for all the other tickets and I thought about it some more and I thought actually those that large ace of my family, lovely as it can be, is not, has its own kind of tally as well. There are always strings attached. There's a lot of stress and there's a lot of guilt and there's a lot of awkward who paid the last time

and how will I do this? And if you think even of British drinking culture where there's like, oh, drink buying and rounds, it goes very sour very quickly when someone doesn't stand there round. So I thought actually money always matters, but some people are more straightforward about it than other people.

And now, as you might have guessed, we weathered this whole money language thing. And five years later, I've realized that, in fact, my girlfriend is one of the most generous people that I've met. She's unflinchingly supporting me through years of unending dissertation writing and earning very little money.

And I can accept that generosity completely because I know that if she didn't like it, she would tell me. That was Sarah Rosa at Speed Jacobson. Sarah is a writer living with her family in Rotterdam. She fell in love with live storytelling when she encountered the moth while living in Sydney and is won four story slams and a grand slam. To see some photos of Sarah, her partner, who just happens to be the same Dutch girlfriend from her story and their daughter,

head to our website, themoth.org-extras. Up next, Michelle Murphy. Michelle told this story at a Denver Story Slam, where the theme of the night was, bamboozled. Here's Michelle, live at the mall. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. as Draw Rule would say. And I want to start honestly, because I'm still

in denial about this. I didn't really consider myself to be a global person growing up. In fact, I loved bowling pranks. My friend and I would always full-pranks on people. We also knew how to hustle. When we were five or six, we would go around the block. I'm not sure why we weren't supervised, but we would go to our neighbor's houses.

And we would pick up rocks from their driveway and pine cones from their yard. We used really just any natural debris and then we would ring the doorbell and we would sell their garbage property back to them for two bucks a pop. We considered ourselves pretty slick. That's not to say I ever thought I was savvy or capable or independent. As the youngest of four, I'm definitely like the baby of the family. I don't know how to do anything like XYZ.

So I sort of straddle these two identities, but I never thought that I would fall for a granny scam until a month ago I was working from home and I work for like a crisis line so when people are in crisis they text me, can you imagine after this story nobody will. And I answer the phone and a woman says your social security number was stolen and it's been associated with a really violent crime. I was like oh my gosh and so she gives me the case ID number of this very serious situation

and she forwards me to a federal agent. It is hard to tell this with a straight face in retrospect. The federal agent tells me that with my identity, a car has been stolen in Texas. Woman is missing. The car crashed, and the missing woman's blood remains and eight pounds of cocaine. And I was like, holy fuck.

I haven't been to Texas in 10 years. My sister lives there, but I would never murder her and then get blown out on a baby's weight of cocaine. So that's not my style. So I was very upset by this news. And I just started crying because I was like, it's really intense. And like, it wasn't me, man.

And that didn't do anything. So they say, are you going to cooperate with us to both exonerate yourself for the crime? I literally, what? No, didn't commit it. And help us catch the killer. And I was like, yes, I want both of those things. I want to prove my innocence.

I don't want to catch this murdering motherfucker. So let's do it. And they're like, OK, first thing you have to do, everything we say to a T. And you can't tell anyone. Because we're handling this at the federal level, we don't want to involve this state. So first of all, what?

Second of all, I had already slacked eight of my coworkers being like, I'm under federal investigation. So they told me this, and I'm like, okay, okay, from this moment forward, I will not break the law, I will keep this secret. Like, my dad even comes downstairs, he's like, were you talking to him, like, get out here, dad, like, where are you talking to him? Like, get out of here, dad!

Like, this is a federal investigation. So I'm taking this very seriously. So they're like, OK, the first step is you need to go to your car. That's very classless. They assume I have a car. And they're like, and you need to go to the address that they gave me is the Safeway on Cramaria, also known as the Unsafeway growing up.

Also known as the conglomerate of liquor stores where we would buy illegal watermelon vodka because we were garbage 16 year olds, I don't know. So that should have been the 11th flag, but it was not even the first flag. So I go to the car, they're on speakerphone the whole time. I can't get off speakerphone. That's been made very clear to me.

And I'm crying. I'm driving there. And I remember thinking, sometimes I do acting in whatever, but I could never work for the CIA. When the stakes are high, I don't know what they're going to ask me to do, but I don't know if I'm ready for it. And friends, if you're ever sent to yourself, I don't know if the CIA would hire me.

The answer is the CIA wouldn't hire you. And whatever you're being asked to do, it's not legitimate. So this is just something I learned on the road. So I get to the parking lot. And I'm like, OK, I'm ready. And they're like, OK, go into the King's supers or the unsafe way.

I don't know which one. And they're like, here's the situation. We want the killer to try to get into your bank account so that we can expose them. But first, you need to secure your assets. And I'm like, okay, again, youngest child, Menni, how does it move? I don't know, I don't get anything. So I make sure, fine, whatever. And they're like, but you have to be very sneaky.

You have to say you know the person you're getting it for. They're trained. So if they see that you're lying, they you have to be very sneaky. Like, you have to say you know the person you're getting it for. They're trained. So if they see that you're lying, they're going to push a button and they're going to come arrest you again for a crime you did not commit. So I was like, oh my God. And also the investigation will be compromised and I wanted to catch the killer. So I was very smooth. I go in and put on an act and ask the highest limit I can take out. And this woman's like, do you know who you're buying this for?

Because earlier today, a woman was scanned. I didn't even register. I was like, oh, the fuck and sucks for her. Like, I am on a secret mission. So I buy the, also they were like, this is a federal confirmation card to confirm your assets in the name of a Google Play card. So I knew that before going into the store, I still went into the store,

thought the other lady was a sucker, like bought it. So I get back in the car, they're like, okay, now we're ready. So you're gonna turn the card over, I'm like, okay, they're like, get a quarter, okay. They're like, find the gray line, and they're like, you're just gonna scratch it out and read it to us. And I was like, well, no, this is the one moment,

my one redeeming moment where I realized, I'm not gonna do that. So then they forwarded me to the attorney general. So I'm talking to the big dogs now. What followed were just like two and a half hours of the labored conversation where they kept saying, we're gonna arrest you and I kept saying, I mean, kill me one and like, that's not a

habeas corpus work. So I'm like, this is terrible. I finally have the gall to text my good friend and I'm like, her brother's a lawyer. I'm like, I need your brother's number. I'm under federal investigation. I cannot say why this is very serious. And she's like, I don't know what the fuck

you're talking about, but here is his number. So I'm getting yelled at, I'm sobbing, I'm just feeling terrible. I've driven home by now. And I just opened my computer. And I type in the exact thing that's happening to me. And it's like, scam bitch, scam, scam, scam. And there are a lot of all-trueistic lawyers in Pennsylvania

who are like, we are very serious about stopping this. Like, don't fall for it. And I'm like, oh my god. And I wish I could tell you that I had like a really bad ass line. But I was more just like, what's your K-Side D number again? Like, I don't know. And they were like, we're going to arrest you.

We're sending federal agents right now. And I said, that's wonderful. I'd love to talk to somebody in person. So they hang up the phone. I still haven't read them the number. I call my friend's brother, the lawyer. He's uncharacteristically kind to me, not because he's not usually kind,

but he loves an opportunity to make fun of someone. And this is such low-hanging fruit. And he leaves me with the wisest words, all ever, all ever remember, that I will leave you with now, which is Michelle, it happens to the best of us. But if federal agents think that you stole a car and murdered a woman, and you were trafficking cocaine into the United States, they'll come to your house and they'll tell you they think that.

Thank you. That was Michelle Murphy. Michelle wants listeners to know that she has not been contacted for recruitment by the CIA. She continues on as a storyteller and comedian living in Denver, Colorado. Like many of us, she often thinks about starting a podcast. We'll hold you to it, Michelle. To see some photos of Michelle during the years of her pine cone business, head to our website, the moth.org slash extras. We followed up with

Michelle, and she says that while she hasn't been scammed again since telling the story, the same number still calls her every few weeks. She says she tries to keep them on the phone for as long as possible, and hopes that they'll have less time to take advantage of other people. Here's Michelle to give us a little more insight into her story. I did get the $500 back. I spent about three weeks on the phone with my bank,

with Kroger, it was very embarrassing, but I got the money back. And yeah, when I look at that version of myself I have a little more forgiveness for being so gullible because I realized you know I was working in crisis work at the time and I part of my job was to teach people how to take crisis conversations and so one of the things we teach is that when somebody reaches out to you in an emotional crisis, you don't second-guess them or interrogate them. You validate what they're going through and you listen. And so I think it was a perfect storm

where I was wearing that mental health cap and really ready to believe anything that anyone came to me with. And while I definitely want to get a clue, I also don't know if I want to change that part about myself fully. I'd like to still a clue. I also don't know if I want to change that part about myself fully. I'd like to still mostly believe in people. I just will never answer the phone again from an unknown caller.

That was Michelle Murphy. What I love about this week's stories is the way that they reveal how conversations about money are never just about money. They're about the ideas we grew up with and our beliefs about what we're allowed to have. In the culture my parents grew up in, paying for someone else's meal

or sharing your salary number with a friend wasn't nosy. It was a form of care. Changing our ideas about money is as easy or as difficult as changing our perception of things. So the next time you're filing your taxes, just imagine that you're a squirrel selling pine cones back to the forest that created those pine cones in the first place. Until next time, from all of us here at The Moth,

have a story-worthy week. Jen Lou is the assistant controller at The Moth. She has an MFA in writing from Hunter College and a Roth IRA. When it comes to money, she loves to pick up the tab. This episode of the Moth Podcast was produced by me, Julia Purcell, with Sarah Austin Janess, Sarah Jane Johnson, and Jen Lou. The rest of the Moth's leadership team includes Captain Burns, Sarah Haberman, Jennifer Hickson, Meg Bolls, Kate Tellers, Jennifer Birmingham, Marina Klucce, Suzanne Rust, Branding Grant,

Inga Gludowski, and Aldi Kaza. Special thanks to Jen Liu for hosting her first ever podcast episode. Moth's stories are true as remembered and affirmed by storytellers. For more about our podcast, information on pitching your own story, and everything else, go to our website, themoth.org. The Moth podcast is presented by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange, helping make public radio more public at prx.org. you